From 9-11 to Pastor Jones

Like many people who were in Manhattan that day, I can still smell the acrid, industrialized smoke that covered much of the island by the evening of September 11, 2001 and for days thereafter. When I got home to Vermont a couple days later (when the trains started running again), the odor and even the taste of that smoke remained. Naturally, the images of the burning towers and hundreds of missing posters took a while to leave my immediate memory. Meanwhile, for many, the shock and grief so many felt after the events of that day began to change into anger and a desire for revenge. George Bush, the Congress, and the Pentagon obliged within weeks by invading the country of Afghanistan, deciding that the people who lived in that war-torn region would pay for the deaths incurred on the date now known in the United States as 9-11.

That invasion, along with the invasion of Iraq less than two years later did not go so well. Washington finds its troops still in both countries while the costs of these endeavors (along with several lesser military actions) are draining the economy dry. As for that anger and revenge, it has turned into hatred. Like almost all hatred directed at a group of people based on nothing more than how they look or what they believe, this hatred is based on fear born from ignorance. Unfortunately for the hated, there seems to be little desire to unlearn that ignorance. In other words, those invoking the hate are delighting in their stupidity and intend to make that stupidity and all that flows from it the conscience of the land.

Whether it’s the talking heads in the media who have played the building of a community center in Lower Manhattan into a fearmongering circus against Islam that reminds many with a sense of history of many dark times in human history or an idiot pastor of a fifty member church in Florida who wants to burn the Koran, the hatred on display here is beyond shame. There are those who say that such hatred is unAmerican. I only wish that were true. If there is anything that is American, it is fear of the other. Furthermore, all too often that fear turns into something much worse. Just ask any African-American over fifty. If they didn’t experience some kind of racial hatred, they almost certainly have a relative who did.

Some will argue that this is different, but they are wrong. Furthermore, the hatred being played out in the United States against Muslims is not much different than that directed against Jews throughout European history. The myths being perpetrated regarding Muslim religious beliefs and practices are as incredible as those propagated about the Jewish religion in countries across Europe on and off throughout history. Those myths fed a fear that all too often resulted in the burning of Jewish temples and synagogues, the expulsion of Jewish populations, and mass murder. One wishes that the historical similarities could be seen by those whose fear and hatred of Islam is currently blinding them.

It’s not enough to wring one’s hands and begrudgingly accept the growing displays of hatred. One must confront them. If Terry Jones has the right to burn Korans, then those who oppose his ignorant and self-aggrandizing display of hatred must seize the higher hand and call out this action for what it is. The fact that Jones has apparently called off the Koran burning does not alter the hatred he promoted. It only makes one wonder what kind of blackmail was used to force his hand. If pundits in the media have the right to fan the flames of hatred by telling lies and half-truths about a community center in Manhattan, then those pundits should also be called out. Doing so doesn’t necessarily express support for any particular religion (or even for religion), but opposition to religious hatred. The reason why we should do this is not because US soldiers may be the victims of reprisals in countries where they don’t belong, but because this hatred is wrong. Not unAmerican, but wrong.

Ron Jacobs is the author of The Way The Wind Blew: A History of the Weather Underground and Tripping Through the American Night, and the novels Short Order Frame Up and The Co-Conspirator's Tale. His third novel All the Sinners, Saints is a companion to the previous two and was published early in 2013. Read other articles by Ron.

71 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. rosemarie jackowski said on September 10th, 2010 at 8:58am #

    Hatred is as American as baseball and apple pie. It is the force that empowers Capitalism. Imagine where this country would be without hatred. We would probably have health care for all and a two-week vacation for every worker.
    Instead we have Capitalism and 45,000 dead US citizens every year because they could not get medical care.
    About the proposed burning of the Koran… yes, it is stupid – but what about the burning of all those human beings in Iraq, Afgan., etc….and the drone deaths continue…… where’s the outrage there?
    How about this – before anyone burns a book, he should be required to read it first. And then write a book report on it. (Sorry, I’m an old school teacher.)

  2. bozh said on September 10th, 2010 at 9:02am #

    Does jacobs omit to posit causes for hatred because of limitation of space or in order to lead us into wilderness-obnubilation?
    It seems, to me, it is the latter; as the most elucidatory factors are missing in his piece.
    One factor of utmost import for understandings is, of course, the fact that one has first to wage unknowledge [ i prefer that label to “ignorance”; no one is ignorant] to obtaining hatred-fears-anger-envy-etc.

    And people do that! I’ve already said which ones at at least two dozen times.

    There are also causes for expulsion and killings of ‘jews’. But jacobs omits them.
    I guess he’s telling us: look, shit happens, that’s all u need to know!
    However, shit never ever happens. War never happens. Poverty never happens.
    But i aver that these events are not causeless as people tacitly imply.
    Yes, u gussed it. ‘Ignorance’ happens before poverty or wars occur! And ‘ignorance’ is waged by whom? tnx

  3. shabnam said on September 10th, 2010 at 9:07am #

    A woman who with her husband has contributed large sums to Pro-Israel and Jewish groups is the principal funder of the group that has taken the lead in opposing an Islamic center in lower Manhattan to mobilize American fools to keep the hatred alive so the phony ‘War on Terror’ can go on for regime change.

  4. rosemarie jackowski said on September 10th, 2010 at 9:56am #

    bozh… I agree. You make important points. ‘Events’ don’t just happen. They are caused by humans. Are humans capable of ‘free will’ – maybe, maybe not but that old philosophical debate is not important. Those of us who object to ‘hate’ have the burden of changing everything.
    That starts with the culture and the school system. Every time someone holds the belief in their mind that their team is better than the other team, it sets up a pattern of superiority and entitlement. A walk through any toy store will show that part of the problem starts very early in life.
    Hate and violence sell. That’s capitalism. Let’s eliminate all competitive athletic events from the school system….no more sports – to be replaced with health and exercise training.
    And let’s examine ‘patriotism’. How many lives have been lost because we believe that we are better than the rest of the world. We are ‘entitled’ to kill, occupy, steal resources,….. and then we celebrate with parades to honor those who did the deeds.
    And then when there’s Blowback like 9/11, we wonder why.
    And WAR… that could be eliminated in the voting booth. Never vote for a dem/repub would help. The Congress finances war. The voter empowers the Congress.
    Ron, a Vermonter, must know that in Vermont candidates who are not dem/repub are almost totaly censored out of the Press. The censorship is accepted. This is the State where there are invisible candidates. No one knows about them until they see the name on the ballot in the voting booth. That’s just the way we do things up here.

  5. bozh said on September 10th, 2010 at 11:12am #

    Rosemarie, yes to your observation! Thanks for you comment.

  6. Deadbeat said on September 10th, 2010 at 12:49pm #

    The real phobia is confronting Zionism. This article might as well be a “paid” advert to avert Zionism.

    The reason why there is “hatred” of Muslims is due to the POLITICS that causes “blowback”. There is no mention of Zionism at all. In order to confront “Islamophobia”, ZIONISM must be confronted and NOT avoided with misapplied euphemisms.

    The title of the article is misleading. This isn’t from “9-11 to Pastor Jones”. This is from Theodore Herzl to Noam Chomsky to Amy Goodman. The fact that Chomskyism has so conditioned the Left to avoid Zionism and shift focus away from Jewish complicity makes an article like this one part of the reason why “Islamophobia” exists.

    Kudos to Shabnam for the link. Apparently Jones becomes the easy target of chomskyites for the pretense of “credible analysis” all the while avoiding cause and effect.

    Unfortunately Ron avoids how Zionism has found a home in the United States, its influences on her political economy which clearly has profound effects on people like Pastor Jones, Noam Chomsky, and Aubrey and Joyce Chernick.

  7. Don Hawkins said on September 10th, 2010 at 12:53pm #

    War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
    George Orwell

    And appears not working as some had envisioned. That darn truth and knowledge some is still getting out.

  8. rosemarie jackowski said on September 10th, 2010 at 1:26pm #

    Deadbeat….Zionism explains a lot, but not everything. If there was no Zionism there would still be US wars – if not for the pretense of oil, then for broccoli. Capitalism needs war to exist.
    Do you assume that if there was no Zionism, there would be no Capitalism? The belief that ‘greed is good’ and ‘more greed is better’ is part of the US psyche.

  9. Don Hawkins said on September 10th, 2010 at 2:49pm #

    However mean your life is, meet it and live it: do not shun it and call it hard names. Cultivate poverty like a garden herb, like sage. Do not trouble yourself much to get new things, whether clothes or friends. Things do not change, we change. Sell your clothes and keep your thoughts. ~Henry David Thoreau

  10. Deadbeat said on September 10th, 2010 at 2:58pm #

    Rosemarie Jackowski writes …

    Deadbeat….Zionism explains a lot, but not everything. If there was no Zionism there would still be US wars – if not for the pretense of oil, then for broccoli. Capitalism needs war to exist.

    That statement is a supposition. The fact is Zionism does exist and it explains a lot. So why not confront it. For the past 40 years the Left refused to confront this problem. And I’m not talking about Israel but about the tremendous influence of the political economy of the United States.

    Also about Capitalism. I’ve said there are two problem that need to be confronted — Zionism and Capitalism. So why analyze only one but not the other. My take is that Capitalism uses racism to maintain a divided working class. Zionism uses Capitalism to extend its supremacy and power.

    What’s the problem with speaking out against both? Why confront one and not the other?

    Do you assume that if there was no Zionism, there would be no Capitalism? The belief that ‘greed is good’ and ‘more greed is better’ is part of the US psyche.

    I don’t assume anything. My experience with the anti-war Left is what reveal to me the role of Zionism on the U.S. and the influence it has on the Left who I thought were allies in the struggle against Capitalism.

    Therefore my analysis has changed form solely examining Capitalism to examining how both Zionism and Capitalism effect the political economy of the United States.

    Clearly in order for Capitalism to be confronted you need radicalism that typically came from the Left which means you’ll need solidarity. However Zionism plays a tremendous role of weakening solidarity. This was evident by the way the anti-war Left dismantled the anti-war movement especially as people like James Petras emerged challenging the “War for Oil ™” canard.

    Greed is a superficial characterization and why I think out of frustration you have a tendency to “blame the victim”. The problem is about power and powerlessness. Atomization, reflecting the powerlessness, means that people are left to their own devises to survive.

    The obvious aspect of Capitalism is that everything is a commodity. Therefore the political economy of the U.S. is a commodity and open to the highest bidder. In 1900 that was Rockefeller, Mellon, Morgan, etc. in 2010 it is the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.

    This problem has been ignored for too long.

  11. teafoe2 said on September 10th, 2010 at 3:24pm #

    db writes: “This isn’t from “9-11 to Pastor Jones”. This is from Theodore Herzl to Noam Chomsky to Amy Goodman.”

    Exactly! What a classic statement!

  12. bozh said on September 10th, 2010 at 3:32pm #

    Ideology, particularly one’s own, contains largely euphemistic connotations. However, devoid of fixed meanings.
    When europeans of the two cults robbed, murdered, and expelled pal’ns from their land on which they may have resided for 8 k yrs, they called that “zionism”.

    It sounded nice; especially to christians and talmudniks or relatives of these people who may have not believed in yahweh, but did in murder and expulsion.

    To this day, these great criminals still love the very word “zionism”. But why those who fear this fiction or the label “zionism”, which is presenting to us and young people a fictive reality, use it, is beyond me.

    Hey foks, we need to posit to children [forget about adults] the facts since first zionist congress in basle 1897. And then go on to churchill, balfour, christians, armaments received from czhechoslovakia, yugoslavia, france, germany, US and what all these countries and peple did to help criminals do their crime!

    Best i think, is to call destruction of a people like pal’ns: Europepan invasion of palestina!
    ‘Jews’ on their own could have not destroyed these people and especially if european lands had been more egalitarian-honest; i.e., less fascistic. tnx

  13. kalidas said on September 10th, 2010 at 4:04pm #

    Deadbeat, you’re much too kind.

    Here’s a perfect example of mutable-Zionism .

    Isn’t this ha, ha, “Independent” Vermont’s main man?

  14. mary said on September 10th, 2010 at 4:04pm #

    The reality of Zionist control of the Palestinians in Gaza one day before Eid is the total sealing of the borders for FOUR days combined with aerial bombings.

  15. teafoe2 said on September 10th, 2010 at 4:25pm #

    Rosemarie, you wrote: “Zionism explains a lot, but not everything”, “Capitalism needs war to exist.”
    and “Do you assume that if there was no Zionism, there would be no Capitalism?”.

    Your first proposition is true, but trivial. Actually as you formulate the proposition, it’s not clear what you mean by Zionism.

    If you will permit me to put words in your mouth, just for the moment, maybe your proposition could be re-stated something like “When attempting to determine the causes of US wars/occupations, it is not sufficient to cite Zionism as the cause since there are other factors involved”.

    Exactly what is meant by “Zionism” is still left pretty vague: are we talking about a belief system, a narrative presented as “history”? Are we talking about an existing militarized State in the ME? Do we include the Zionist Power Configuration in the US and other “diaspora” countries?
    But maybe it will be possible to make some progress using the term as you have offered it, without defining it more precisely.

    My own view, a reflection of my personal experience over several decades, is that by grasping the issue of Zionism, of the creation of the movement which succeeded in implanting a racist settler-colonial militarized State in the territory long known as Palestine, and of the continued US support enabling said State to perpetuate itself, any sufficiently determined open-minded investigation will eventually uncover the entire monstrous reality which is present day Zionist-Capitalist militarized/financialized Imperialism.

    Zionism should not be seen as offering an alternative to the consideration of Capitalism. Modern Zionism, both as an ideology and a military reality, is impossible to imagine, could never have arisen, except in a capitalist context.
    What has happened, is that the pre-existing Capitalist structure in the US, the EU countries, and their dependencies, has been infiltrated, bought out, subjected to Hostile Takeover, by the Zionist Power Configuration/ZPC, using the term in the broad sense to include the Isreali state apparatus.

    Thus the Capitalism which once corresponded fairly closely to models offered by Marx, Engels, Kautsky, Jas Connolly, Luxembourg, Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, Cabral, Baran/Sweezy, Wallerstein, Althusser, and other theorists, has now developed something unexpected, something none of these theorists saw coming: an ANOMALY.
    As we attempt to make sense of the emergence of this anomalous growth resembling something like a socio-economic carcinoma within the capitalist corpus, it is helpful to examine the history of capitalist societies and to note any other developments/phenomena which may to some extent also be categorizeable as anomalous.

    The chronologically earliest I’m aware of is the history of the spontaneous emergence of capitalist relations of production in pre-Meiji Restoration Japan, and the repeated truncation of the emerging capitalist class by the Samuria class, which controlled the Japanese state apparatus at that time.

    The chief significance of this chapter of history for the present discussion is that it illustrates a key principle: that of the Autonomy of the State. The popular proverb has it that “Money is Power”, but that is an oversimplification. If the saying was actually true, then the prosperous peasants turned rice merchants/commodity speculators would have kept their wealth and their heads instead of losing both en masse to posses of professional athletes skilled in swordplay.

    And Japanese capitalism would have staged its own Glorious Revolution, would have seized control of the Bakufu decades before Commodore Perry set in motion the Meiji Restoration which installed Capitalism at the helm of the state.

    But I need to go russle up some grub. If you’re still with me so far, next I’ll take up anomalies Two and Three: the so-called “Confederate States of America”, and the Third Reich/Euro-Fascism episode.

  16. KL5 said on September 10th, 2010 at 4:45pm #

    Pastor Jones is receiving his “message” from God, Mohammed of Arabia did the same. Shabnam of Persia, an Islamic “Republic” waiting for Mehdi (a kind of Jewish Messiah) means: “the principal funder of the group that has taken the lead in opposing an Islamic center in lower Manhattan to mobilize American fools to keep the hatred alive so the phony ‘War on Terror’ can go on for regime change”

    It is ridiculous that an agent of the ruthless Persian regime and a citizen of an underdeveloped country talks about “American fools”. Well, Shabnam, why don’t you tell us more about intelligent Persians like your Ahmedinejad waiting for “Mehdi” and torture in Iranian prisons? Is your “Mehdi” any better than Pastor Jones? This is a very rhetorical question. You will certainly lie.

    Thanks !

  17. Don Hawkins said on September 10th, 2010 at 4:58pm #

    It’s almost 9 o’clock CNN Hawking I will ask questions and a little something to get the mind in the frame.

    They are still quite unaware of the gravity of their problems.

  18. teafoe2 said on September 10th, 2010 at 6:07pm #

    bozh here’s a word for you: Falastin.

  19. teafoe2 said on September 10th, 2010 at 6:14pm #

    how about a lil Al Jebra, folks?

    KL5=BS2dMAX + 1;)

  20. 3bancan said on September 10th, 2010 at 6:53pm #

    KL5 said on September 10th, 2010 at 4:45pm #

    Another zionazi preacher on his/her hasbara mission…

  21. Deadbeat said on September 10th, 2010 at 9:26pm #

    Kalidas writes …

    Deadbeat, you’re much too kind.

    Here’s a perfect example of mutable-Zionism .

    Isn’t this ha, ha, “Independent” Vermont’s main man?

    I don’t know if you ever saw the Thom Hartmann video where he cuts off callers mention the Mersheimer and Walt book. Hartmann as was cutting off callers, guest was “socialist” Sanders who slandered such callers “conspiracy theorists”.

    Thom Hartmann with sidekick Bernie Sanders Hypocrisy for Israel

    Thom Hartmann cut off a caller talking about Israel Lobby

  22. mary said on September 11th, 2010 at 12:58am #

    Murdoch’s murky world.

    Also google:

    News Corp’s number-two shareholder funded ‘terror mosque’ planner

  23. jalexander3 said on September 11th, 2010 at 2:35am #

    wow the first comment to this article was a reader declaring that the US is capitalist. i am beginning to regret creating an account with DV.

    is this common of DV readers?

  24. mary said on September 11th, 2010 at 2:53am #

    The BBC waving the (false) flag.

    This quotes their reporter Laura Trevelyan. Last night they had James Reynolds, Mark Mardell and Paul Adams on. How many of them are there in the US ffs.

  25. mary said on September 11th, 2010 at 2:58am #

    I see that Silverstein still has his mucky paws on the site.

  26. Don Hawkins said on September 11th, 2010 at 4:27am #

    Each religion, with its respective sacred books, places of worship and symbols, has the right to respect and protection.

    Iranian President MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD
    [The proposed burning is a] Zionist plot that is against the teachings of all divine prophets. Zionists and their supporters are on their way to collapse and dissolution and such last-ditch actions will not save them, but multiply the pace of their fall and annihilation

    (CNN) — Theology is unnecessary. So says Stephen Hawking, the world-famous physicist who controversially argues in a new book that God did not create the universe.
    “Science is increasingly answering questions that used to be the province of religion,” Hawking replied. “The scientific account is complete. Theology is unnecessary.” CNN

    Len Mlodinow ,Deepak Chopra and Father Robert J. Spitzer talked after Hawking and what a talk it was. Why is there something and not nothing? Just maybe a few are trying to bring a new way of thinking so there is something for my kid’s and there kid’s can it work that is another very good question. One thing for sure the people who watched last night some just might still be in shock and the battle of the God’s goes on.

  27. mary said on September 11th, 2010 at 6:17am #

    As officers in the U.S. military, we took an oath to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” Regardless of our current status — active duty, reserves, retired, or civilian — that oath remains in force. Therefore it is not just our responsibility, it is our duty to expose the real perpetrators of 9/11 and bring them to justice, no matter how hard it is, how long it takes, how much we have to suffer, or where it leads us. We owe this to those who have gone before us who executed that same oath, and we owe it to those who are following that same oath today in Iraq and Afghanistan. We believe the official account of 9/11 as defined in the 9/11 Commission Report is grossly inaccurate and fatally flawed. It is imperative that we have an accurate understanding of 9/11 so that those responsible can be identified and brought to justice in order that they and similarly-minded people never again commit such heinous crimes. It is also imperative that we have an accurate understanding of 9/11 so that governmental policies resulting from 9/11 are based on truth rather than deception.

    We join with other organizations of professionals, such as Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Pilots for 9/11 Truth, Firefighters for 9/11 Truth, Medical Professionals for 9/11 Truth, and Lawyers for 9/11 Truth, and millions of individual citizens in demanding a thorough, impartial, open and transparent reinvestigation of the terrorist acts of 9/11.


    What’s that old saying ? The truth will out.

  28. MichaelKenny said on September 11th, 2010 at 9:21am #

    Viewed from outside the US, the amusing side of all this is that, even if The Mosque is never built, even if the screwball never burns any Korans, the mere fact of threatening to, the mere fact of trying to block the mosque, do immense damage to the US in the world, and not just in the Muslim world. Europe, for example, fears a US which seeks to confront Islam in general and the more the US sets itself up as the “anti-Mohammad”, the more Europe will pull back. If the 9/11 attack was carried out by those who have been blamed for it, then they pulled off the biggest political coup of all time. They provoked the US into destroying itself!. If, on the other hand, 9/11 was a false flag operation, then the perpetrators committed the biggest political blunder of all time, precisely for the abovementioned reason.

  29. 3bancan said on September 11th, 2010 at 10:06am #

    MichaelKenny said on September 11th, 2010 at 9:21am #

    “Europe, for example, fears a US which seeks to confront Islam in general and the more the US sets itself up as the “anti-Mohammad”, the more Europe will pull back.”

    I don’t see much difference between the zionazified Europe and the zionazified US. Even the once most rational Skandinavians are diligently hurrying to Afghanistan to “defend themselves” against “the radical Islam(ists)”

    9/11 “provoked the US into destroying itself!”

    As I see it, the US is not destroying itself, it’s destroying other countries, millions and millions of innocent lives…

  30. bozh said on September 11th, 2010 at 10:20am #

    It’s a huge error [and we came on DV never ever to make one, so trust us] to swear allegience to the US constitution; for in effect, one only can defend ‘judicial’ [means paid charlatans-hackers] interpretation of the constitution.
    All writen volumes: bible, koran, torah, talmud, das kapital, seven dwarfs, can only be interpreted; the actual meanings imbued in such stories [or mystories] by authors, never ever to be discovered.

    And we already elucidated why is that so. Because meanings are not in words but people. Being all dead does not help our inquiry!
    And wars, exploitation, slavery, stonings, jailings, missiles born from presentation of a fictive [one of trns possible]reality and not one beloved by all of us serfs and slaves!
    Oh horrors-terrors by these [?mostly] men [dead to boot] visiting us daily. tnx

  31. bozh said on September 11th, 2010 at 10:41am #

    We are at least a bit doubtful that the ruling class [onepercenters] don’t see that ulema are extremely devoted to all fascist govts. Such govts need only to give ulema {body of mullahs} what it wants and their allegience is asssured.

    However, one factor diminishes US ulemic import to US because of their small numbers and not because of its stance.

    Uncle, tho, needs other ulema and not just american. So, wait and see. Ulema on advice of the uncle may just build the mosque elsewhere. But the final say has the uncle and not palin, beck, and the like.
    I think, palin had already been told couple of things…. do’t fret about such a mini event! tnx

  32. teafoe2 said on September 11th, 2010 at 11:52am #

    Okay, Rosemarie, I see I’ve lost you. before I give up on you entirely, let me ask you to explain just why and how “Capitalism needs war to exist”?

    Or is this to you a truism that needs no explanation?

  33. bozh said on September 11th, 2010 at 1:05pm #

    It sems to us who think of implicatory structure of language that an ism, including “capitalism”, represents a set of meanings to which all people agree with.
    Not so. To some people the word capitalism evokes pleasant connotations and meanings– to others, contrary or much different.
    The label “capitalism“ is not on the same level as word “bread“. The word “bread“ cannot be further defined; to us, it is undefinable.

    However, any ism can be defined and redifined ad infinitum by a person and differ from every other person`s definition or explanation and also differ from herhis own as time elapses.
    Casting the widest and longest look possible and ignoring all isms, but looking at what, say, US does, eliminates arguments.
    Also the meanings are not in labels the meanings are in people. One obtains knowledge only from our five senses. So, look what obama or any prez does and ignore then what he says.
    And only then use `predictive` language upon seeing what he did. In short, we cannot ever be sure what he`ll do!
    Too bad, but that`s life; there is always uncertainty. tnx

  34. 3bancan said on September 11th, 2010 at 1:21pm #

    teafoe2 said on September 11th, 2010 at 11:52am #

    I’d say that Rosemarie knows well what she can and must say if she’s going to be elected. Her “blowback” view of 9/11 is politically correct, her “hatred-is-as-American-as-baseball-and-apple-pie” theory will of course have to get softened quite a bit, blaming capitalism for everything is in vogue, as to the word zionism – I can hardly believe one can get elected in the US just mentioning it in passing…

  35. Deadbeat said on September 11th, 2010 at 2:20pm #

    3bancan makes an excellent point which would imply that Rosemarie run for office is no better than her critique of the voters.

    Voters only have a choice of among the candidates on the ballot who are willing to voice the truth. If Rosemarie is unwilling to tell voters the truth about Zionism being the source of the “hatred” then how can she in good conscience blame them for making poor choices. People haven’t been told the truth and even among activists have been limited to ABC’s of Chomskyism that defines and confines left-wing discourse.

  36. teafoe2 said on September 11th, 2010 at 3:55pm #

    teafoe2 said on September 11th, 2010 at 11:52am #

    I’d say that Rosemarie knows well what she can and must say if she’s going to be elected. Her “blowback” view of 9/11 is politically correct, her “hatred-is-as-American-as-baseball-and-apple-pie” theory will of course have to get softened quite a bit, blaming capitalism for everything is in vogue, as to the word zionism – I can hardly believe one can get elected in the US just mentioning it in passing…
    Did I really say that? musta still bin asleep. I’m not that smart while I’m awake. ??

  37. teafoe2 said on September 11th, 2010 at 4:01pm #

    bozh, there are six senses: sight,hearing, smell, taste, touch, and the body. if you count as a “sense” the stream of ideation, the constant flow of words/symbols/mental pictures of which you are aware every waking moment, how many is that?

  38. Cameron said on September 11th, 2010 at 5:34pm #

    bozh, which one of your senses tells you that water is made up of oxygen and hydrogen? Can you see or taste oxygen and hydrogen atoms in a glass of water?
    If your senses didn’t tell you that then how did you find out about it? Is there any “uncertainty” what water is?

  39. bozh said on September 11th, 2010 at 5:49pm #

    Cameron, u raise a fair question, i think. But it is the scientists who say they have discovered oxigen and hydrogen. Have they seen them? or felt some pressure? And pressure being diff or each gas.
    So, u cld ask them!? For one thing oxigen burns and one sees it, Does oxigen smell? I don’t know!
    Can atoms be seen? As far as i know, they can by instrumnets, but, of course not, by eye!
    But then tell me please how u learn of anything? tnx

  40. Don Hawkins said on September 11th, 2010 at 6:02pm #

    A question “If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

    In J.R.R. Tolkien’s Hobbit trilogy, a series of magical rings were forged from gold, each holding incredible power for the one who wore it. To keep the powers balanced, there was one ring that ruled them all, more powerful than the others because it unified them. M-Theory is the unifying theory of superstrings that explained multiple superstring theories to actually be different ways of looking at the same theory. In that sense, M-Theory is “the one theory that binds them all,” and did so by revealing an 11th dimension to the beautifully elegant theory of superstrings.
    Superstring theory holds that particles, previously thought of as tiny balls of energy, are actually minute wiggling strings. Although strings are smaller than any subatomic particle we are able to detect or measure, they make up all matter in the universe. The unique vibration of strings determines what kind of particle is created, each having a different vibratory signature.
    String theory is particularly important because it unites the quantum world of the infinitesimally small with the world we know through our senses. Superstrings also unites all four forces in the universe: the strong and weak nuclear forces, electromagnetism and gravity. Einstein spent his entire life seeking a unifying field theory, or “The Theory of Everything.” M-theory is the first mathematically sound theory to do this.
    Before M-Theory, superstring theory held that there were ten dimensions. The three we know about, and six more dimensions forming extremely small “curled up” points existing everywhere within space/time. The strings of superstring theory exist within these six-dimensional shapes. Time made a total of ten dimensions. But soon several conflicting theories arose that all seemed to prove string theory. This was a conundrum, because it the theory was correct there should not be conflicting theories, but one definitive theory. M-Theory turned out to be that single theory that united all the others.
    M-Theory proposed an 11th dimension that mathematically rid the theory of any further anomalies. In this 11th dimension a string could acquire enough energy to expand infinitely into what scientists call a floating membrane. According to the theory, our universe exists on a floating membrane, along with infinite parallel universes on their own membranes. From this foundation, it was further found that (mathematically) gravity might “leak” into our membrane from another nearby membrane, accounting for its relatively weak force in comparison to the other forces. M-Theory and superstrings succeeded where The Standard Model did not, unifying all forces in the universe with one, elegant theory.
    By introducing the 11th dimension, M-Theory successfully united the “competing” theories of string theory. Scientists saw the different theories were actually multiple ways of approaching the same theory, akin to the old proverb about the blind men each touching a different part of an elephant offering seemingly conflicting observations. M-Theory also provided another crucial aspect of the puzzle in that it explained how the Big Bang might have occurred, with two membranes colliding. The energy produced from such a collision is mathematical consistent with what we know from existing science.

  41. bozh said on September 11th, 2010 at 6:12pm #

    Don’t scientists recognize just five senses? ” Having an image of an apple is not like seeing or tasting it. But i suppose images are useful as well so u tell biologists to revise their number of senses.
    Ideating appears as thinking and one uses words for that. Is that a sense? Again, get the thinkers to think about it.
    Thoughts are valuable as they direct us how to do things differently or to set up new experiments.
    Hower, words are static; reality in a constant flux; thus, we need to use new structure of language that tells that; i.e., structure of language must correspond to the structure of reality.
    Otherwise, and particularly in social science, we’d be mired in exploitation, abuse, oppression, wars for long time and oppression forever.

    As a wise person said: those who control symbols [flag, words, ‘laws’ constitution, money] will control u and no amount of evolution will change that. Tnx

  42. Don Hawkins said on September 11th, 2010 at 6:14pm #

    Above comment was from wisegeek

    Because string theory predicts phenomena we cannot presently measure such as tiny strings, extra dimensions and multiple universes, some scientists reject it outright. Others find the mathematical elegance of the theory proof in itself that it must be correct and expect M-Theory and superstrings to eventually be validated. wisegeek

    Another question if M-theory is correct and no human’s around does the theory still hold. Last night Hawking did say the next two hundred years if we human’s can survive we have a chance. I think he was being nice think less years like subtract 180 years if we are lucky.

  43. Cameron said on September 11th, 2010 at 6:15pm #

    bozh, that’s the point I’m trying to make. You reject “ism” as having different meanings to different people. For an educated person, “water” = H2O. For an uneducated person, “water” is just water.
    Phenomena in the real world have essence and appearance. What our senses can tell us is the appearance of phenomena. It’s the science that drills down and figures out the internal relations of things regardless of the realm (exact, natural, or social science). Marx, a scientist, discovered the internal relations of capitalism, thus discovering the laws governing it. The uncertainty about the “ism” in capitalism may go away if you educate yourself on it. Start by reading his books rather than those who try to debunk it.

  44. bozh said on September 11th, 2010 at 6:30pm #

    I did not reject any ism. I have stated that even one person’s understanding of an ism may differ at diff points of time let alone from other people’s.
    Structurally, the term is a high order term and as such far removed from reality.
    Such understandings are neither wrong or right nor true or false.
    Thought of it that way, high order terms are useful and lead to civilized discourse.
    Every human being has the right to understand anything the way he understands it.

    But it does matter how-when-where-why anyone acquires knowledge. Children, eg, ‘know’ god exists and that he talked to prophets who faithfully wrote what he said.
    It cld have happened to me and i’d be burning koran, but i acquired my knowledge over a life time and nothing from childhood. tnx

  45. Don Hawkins said on September 11th, 2010 at 6:43pm #

    Ok two Americans for one reason or another lost in the desert for a week they finished there last water, H2O three day’s ago. One of the Americans work’s at Goldman Sachs a Capitalist went to Harvard business school an educated man. The other man worked in a steel mill all his life finished the third grade and heard once his boss was a Capitalist. Here’s where it get’s interesting these two men are thirsty and a voice in the sky say’s a tad bit thirsty are you look up ahead do you see it a bottle of H2O first man to it it’s his and a town only 10 miles ahead. So who won the race? To me the answer is easy the man who worked in the steel mill as the voice in the sky also said the meek shall inherit the Earth. Work’s for me.

  46. Deadbeat said on September 11th, 2010 at 6:57pm #

    Since this discussions is taking a philosophical turn, I was hoping T42 would complete his thoughts about anomalies.

  47. Don Hawkins said on September 11th, 2010 at 7:31pm #

    A theory we could call it the five star theory. Ok the theory in very simple terms states that a few corporations run by educated men and women are destroying planet Earth for profit and doing it with style. A few more men and woman who are thought of as less educated because they have less money have brought this to the attention of the men and woman who run the corporations with no success. The theory then states that on this present path the Earth will be destroyed for life and no winners but done with style.

  48. catguy00 said on September 11th, 2010 at 7:36pm #

    [quote]A woman who with her husband has contributed large sums to Pro-Israel and Jewish groups is the principal funder of the group that has taken the lead in opposing an Islamic center in lower Manhattan to mobilize American fools to keep the hatred alive so the phony ‘War on Terror’ can go on for regime change.

    Yet the Jewish mayor of New York City continues to defend the mosque.

  49. Don Hawkins said on September 11th, 2010 at 7:38pm #

    With style and cleverness.

  50. shabnam said on September 11th, 2010 at 8:05pm #

    {Yet the Jewish mayor of New York City continues to defend the mosque.}

    So what? Gilad Atzmon also supports the center, NOT MOSQUE, it is an Islamic center. But, the fact remains, the organized zionist Jews are behind the war. They dragged us into Iraq war and now they are pushing for a military attack on Iran. Obama has resisted so far, that’s why Jeff Gates writes: “Will Israel Assassinate Barak Obama?”. I guess people remember assassination of John F. Kennedy. He put pressure on Israel to let the inspectors in to investigate Israel nuclear weapon program. Kennedy also supported PALESTINIANS RIGHTS OF RETURN like the UN does. Unfortunately, he like Rafiq Harriri was assassinated.
    Stop fooling yourself, every one knows what is going on.

  51. 3bancan said on September 11th, 2010 at 8:39pm #

    catguy00 said on September 11th, 2010 at 7:36pm #

    Typical zionazi maths…

  52. catguy00 said on September 11th, 2010 at 10:08pm #

    Are “organized Jews” behind the war any more than “organized Christians” are?

  53. mary said on September 12th, 2010 at 1:27am #

    Since 4pm yesterday, the discussion has been diverted away from the subject of the original article. Why has that happened?

  54. Don Hawkins said on September 12th, 2010 at 5:00am #

    Why has that happened? A wonderful question and should we use the truth to the best of our knowledge or illusion. Well it’s Sunday and I was told the day of rest so being sort of a rebel the truth to the best of our knowledge and the answer is drum roll please we made something from nothing.

  55. Don Hawkins said on September 12th, 2010 at 5:14am #

    Are “organized Jews” behind the war any more than “organized Christians” are? Oh heck let’s keep going with that thinking Al Gore fly’s in a jet, CO 2 makes plant’s grow better, Fox New’s is fair and balanced, what are brown bears doing in the woods,Rich people are smarter than poor people and the fool on the hill see’s the world spinning around.

  56. 3bancan said on September 12th, 2010 at 5:25am #

    catguy00 said on September 11th, 2010 at 10:08pm #

    “Are “organized Jews” behind the war any more than “organized Christians” are?”

    A classical zionazi rhetorical question…

  57. catguy00 said on September 12th, 2010 at 10:04am #

    It was a fair question that no one answered.

  58. 3bancan said on September 12th, 2010 at 10:20am #

    catguy00 said on September 12th, 2010 at 10:04am #

    “It was a fair question that no one answered.”

    This zionazi’s chutzpah knows no bounds…

  59. bozh said on September 12th, 2010 at 10:32am #

    One cannot ever veer off the topic in a world in which even a flit of a butterfly is part of a flowing whole.

    I am tired of deceitful directive to stay with a ‘topic’; generally, a narrowest look cast and people supposed to stay within arbitrarily set parameters of allowable discourse.

    Are we still not sick of pet peeving and dictatorship?
    Is this what all ‘educators’ do: give u only one piece of the jigsaw puzzle and the puzzle containing thousand pieces.

    The topic shld be the known whole and not pet and private peeves! Koran, bible, and torah are also part of the whole but ?all contribtors avoid to list their vitiating effects on the known whole! tnx

  60. bozh said on September 12th, 2010 at 10:51am #

    Islam, christianity, and jewisheness [?jewism] appear as warparties. And parties for inequality among nations and individuals.
    All three of this mafioso orgs want a ‘sinner’ to burn in hell. But to their great sorrow and chagrin, the hell’s been around so long, it has by now cooled down sufficiently to suit everybody. tnx

  61. rosemarie jackowski said on September 12th, 2010 at 10:52am #

    Sorry – I have been off the computer. I agree with much of what has been said here about Zionism by Deadbeat, tea, and the others. But it is too simplistic to leave out of the discussion Capitalism and human nature. I know too many hedge fund managers who are amoral and never give a thought to politics or religion or ethics. They are motivated by personal greed.

    Capitalism needs war because there is a lot more profit in weapon systems than there is in farm equipment. Imagine trying to convince the masses that they will die if we do not design a new farm tractor. Even US TV viewers might not fall for that one. But drones, MRAPS, etc…yep they are an easy sell because ‘they will keep us safe’.

    About my candidacy – if anyone believes that my views will get me any votes they have no idea about how the political process works. Most who know me know that my views have gotten me a 4 year-year long legal battle which almost ended in a prison sentence…and still might.

  62. bozh said on September 12th, 2010 at 11:07am #

    In basics, there does not seem any diff between any US pol or US clergiman. No pol nor imam, priest, or rabbi believes in god. Each one of them wishes with burning passions warfare, division, poverty, or even natural disasters on us in order to derides us as disbelievers ; thus bringing on us gods’ punishment and his wrath.

    And these sorcerers-deceivers command hordes of unsane serfs.
    We are lucky that the three cults hate one another more than us and leaving them no time to deal with impious people.

    As for book burnings, it wld be nice if talmudniks wld burn all bibles and qorans and each of the other two do likewise. Then, finally, i wld believe in god! tnx

  63. teafoe2 said on September 12th, 2010 at 11:54am #

    Rosemarie, I’m glad to see your back. Now turn around please:)

    Bozh, you are an extremely rude person. You insist on interrupting discussion of the topic raised in the original article with your rambling incoherent, illogical strings of words. But I am an extremely rude person too so rather than put up with you in silence I choose to tell you what I think.

    Rosemarie, did you read what I posted in response to what you posted about Zionism & Capitalism, your questions? If you didn’t, please do.

    But I’m not going to post any more on this thread which has gotten so long I wouldn’t be surprised if the Eds closed further comment on it. Instead I’m going to wait until the Editors post another article dealing with either Zionism or capitalism or both, and resume the explanation there, starting with the anomolous presense of Chattel Slavery in the American capitalist system, and the secessionist slavocracy’s exercise of their relatively autonomous State power.

    Oh, Bozh, don’t bother to reply to this rude comment of mine, since I won’t be visiting this thread again. If you want to respond, you’ll have to do it as a comment on another article, in which case your comment will be off-topic, amounting to nothing but vandalism:)

  64. bozh said on September 12th, 2010 at 12:34pm #

    I am sure that ?every ‘jew’, pol, and sacerdote wld like to strangle me. And it is not my ‘rudeness’ that causes people to go ballistic– it’s the truth they don’t know how to handle.

    And one- or two-issuistic people often get mad at what i write because i never suport the guess that twelve, twelve hundred or twelve thousand ‘jews’ utterly control 250 mn adult americans.
    And are ruining it all by lonesome selves. If indeed so, then anglosaxons-christians have prepared the way for the people of the book to take matters into their own hands, by educating them about ‘jews’ being light onto the world, best money managers; making all americans rich, etc.

    Well, it’s not over yet. Maybe they will one day! Please blitzread and blitzunderstand this or better yet, all one-issuistic people skip this post. tnx

  65. Deadbeat said on September 12th, 2010 at 3:42pm #

    The important point that T42 was made what this …

    Zionism should not be seen as offering an alternative to the consideration of Capitalism. Modern Zionism, both as an ideology and a military reality, is impossible to imagine, could never have arisen, except in a capitalist context

    This notion that Zionism and Capitalism should not be analyzed as interlinked systems is a huge reason why the Left hasn’t confronted Zionism and integrate it into its critique of Capitalism. The result of this failure has been to allow this racist ideology (Zionism) to manifest and this manifestation is why “Islamophobia” has become mainstream and widespread.

    Another issue that is very much related to the Left’s failure is the recent Australian elections. We were told by Socialist Equality Part (SEP) that the reason Rudd was ousted was due to the 40% mining surtax.

    Well guess what? Now that the election results are in Rudd’s replacement, Julia Gillard, plans to maintain the tax. So now will Ms. Gillard be replaced? The answer is NO. Why? Because she has shown her fealty to Zionism. Yet these band of “Marxists” totally obscured this by shifting the focus of power to the mining companies. And when you think about it the SEP acted in a very “anti-Marxist” manner by dismissing Zionism as the major factor in the ousting of Rudd.

    This failure demonstrates why the Left is in such a sorry state to properly confront Capitalism and why it cannot be trusted. Such bad analysis leads to awful strategic planning for one and for two you don’t know whether the SEP’s denial of Zionism influence is in fact honest which means they are totally incompetent or deliberate which will eventually lead to betrayal.

    In other words, in the year 2010 and perhaps for the foreseeable future, confronting Zionism IS in actuality confronting Capitalism.

    Unfortunately, Rosemarie’s take of focusing on individual behavior is reactionary and totally misses the systemic power and influence Zionism has on the Capitalist system. Zionism today the major impetus behind WAR. Engaging in Chomskyite axioms like “Capitalism needs war” obscures the POWER CONFIGURATION pushing for war. “Capitalism needs war” becomes nothing more than an empty political talking point no better than “Keep Hope Alive!”

  66. teafoe2 said on September 12th, 2010 at 6:05pm #

    Let us distinguish between “Capitalism” as a generic category, as a system which obeys a certain internal logic, as outlined by Marx and elaborated by various Marx-influenced thinkers like the ones I mentioned in my earlier post, and the actual, concrete ZioImperialist globalized/financialized Capitalism centered in Wall St and the Pentagon which exists today, now, this minute.

    But since I typed those lines time has elapsed so let me post them and see what else has been said in the meantime.

  67. catguy00 said on September 12th, 2010 at 6:20pm #

    One poster wrote that Zionism has been around for 40 years without being confronted. While it should be confronted with relation to the Middle East I fail to see what Zionism has to do with US foreign policy in Southeast Asia (Vietnam War) or Latin America for example?

  68. teafoe2 said on September 12th, 2010 at 7:04pm #

    Rosemarie, I’m still focussed on the questions you have posed. Sorry to be taking so long.

    I’ve been reading posts and I believe a couple of articles by Rosemarie for about five or six years now, and have formed an impression of her as a nice person, one who is willing to invest time/energy/resources into trying to do something about things that need something done about them. So I would never call Rosemarie a “reactionary”.

    Unfortunately however some of her assumptions as expressed in comments on this thread contain reactionary elements, which if uncritically accepted could tend to divert our analytical focus into non-productive channels.

    BUT: by clearly and simply articulating notions common among many who object to recent actions of what we are told is our democratically elected Federal Government,
    I believe Rosemarie has done us all an important service, one which promises to be of great help in our effort to understand our predicament.

    Rosemarie posited that “Zionism explains a lot, but not everything”, “Capitalism needs war to exist.”
    and “Do you assume that if there was no Zionism, there would be no Capitalism?”.

    Let’s take these in reverse order. The answer to question three is “NO”. Also, the question seems to call for speculation about a situation which could not be a reality in the absence of a great series of drastic other changes in the status quo.

    It is not a question of waving a magic or philosophic wand which will cause Zionism to disappear and the world to be as though it had never existed. That is the world of fantasy. Zionism will not vanish until it is DEFEATED. Defeated ideologically and materially, politically, militarily. Not necessarily by the application of overwhelming Force Majeure, perhaps by the disabling of the Zionist coercive apparatus mainly by non-violent political means accompanied by relatively minor application of armed force, somewhat in the manner that the South African Apartheid regime was dismantled and its most egregious abuses rectified.

    Even with the defeat of the zionist political institutions and apparatus, even if all the currently powerful zionist organizations were broken up and the personnel scattered to the winds, the harm Zionism has done to the human species will not be eliminated for many decades, perhaps for centuries.

    Considering your question as a hypothetical, we can say Well, Capitalism did exist before Zionism became a dominant force in it, so yes, in theory Capitalism could continue to exist, to function as a system, to exploit and oppress, without the presence in it of a Zionist component. But this is the realm of abstract theorizing.

    In the actually existing Capitalism confronting us, Zionism, as manifested in the US/Diaspora Zionist Power Configuration and the “State of Isreal”, which are actually not separate phenomena but a single entity uniting plural components, is a key element.

    repeat: Zionism is a KEY element in actually existing Capitalism. That is, more precisely, the two-headed monster that is the Zionist Power Structure is a KEY element in the Imperialist-colonialist structure of coercion and mental colonization which enables the two main processes at work in the world today: the Accumulation of Capital, that is of Power in its financialized guise, and the Destruction and Elimination of any social aggregate that might conceivable in any imaginable circumstances pose anything approaching a measurable threat or obstacle to the vision of Eretz Yisroel. To “Greater Israel”, to the realization of YWHW’s kingdom here on earth.

    Only on rare occasions do these twin objectives come into conflict with each other.

    Let me submit this much before I erase it…

  69. teafoe2 said on September 12th, 2010 at 7:28pm #

    kitty dude, Vietnam/SE Asia “counterinsurgency” took place before Zionism achieved its present dominant position in the US State apparatus.

    However, as Shabnam has explained, when the PLA took over Shanghai the PRC confiscated assets of the Sassoon interests, notably the Kowloon Docks and most of the real estate located in the “Bund”; one of the motivations for US Asian strategy from initiation of the “Police Action” in Korea until Nixon sent Henry to China was the vision of reclaiming the colonized China that had been “lost”. The Sassoons were second only to the Rothschilds among European patrons of the “Yishuv”.

    So there was a Zionist component among those who together comprised what was known then as “the China Lobby”. Not that this fact alone explains the Vietnam/SE Asia “war”, but it should be taken into account.

    Latin America is another story. A long long story. Zionist “isreal” was heavily involved in Iran/Contra. Zionist Jewish financial interests and activities go back to the thirties and probably earlier.

    An interesting sidelight is the enduring business partnership between Izreali gunrunner Rafi Eitan and Fidel Castro.

    Nowadays, anywhere you care to look at US financial/”security” operations in the Colonized World, you will find they are intertwined with both Izreali interests/operations and those directed by the US branch of the ZPC.

    Latin America, Africa, the ME, south central Asia: same old same old.

  70. catguy00 said on September 12th, 2010 at 8:29pm #


    During the Cold War the US did heavily back Israel from the 1960’s onward. Of course you can argue that was due to it being a capitalist ally in the region and not the new Zionism that we see today.

    Anyway Zionism did not play a role in earlier US imperialist endevours (Asia and Latin America). The Zionism-China tie is pretty tenuous.

  71. 3bancan said on September 13th, 2010 at 1:30am #

    catguy00 said on September 12th, 2010 at 8:29pm #

    A hasbaRat spews hasbara…