From Delusion to Vindictiveness

Interpreting the Zionist Dream

The socio-economic structure of the Jewish people differs radically from that of other nations. Ours is an anomalous, abnormal structure.

— Ber Borochov, The Economic Development of the Jewish People, 1917

You [Jews] lack the right notion of honour, feeling for duty, morality, patriotism, idealism…

— Max Nordau, Address at the 1st Zionist Congress, 1897

But labour is the only force which binds man to the soil… it is the basic energy for the creation of national culture. This is what we do not have, but we are not aware of missing it. We are a people without a country, without a national living language, without a national culture. We seem to think that if we have no labour it does not matter — let Ivan, John or Mustafa do the work…

— A.D. Gordon, “Our Tasks Ahead,” 1920

Early Zionism was indeed a cheerful dream, it was all about the transformation of the ‘Jew’ into a ‘civilised, respectful and authentic human being’. The founders of Zionism were inspired by the notions of ‘people like any other people’ and ‘nation amongst nations’. Reading early Zionists such as Nordau, Borochov and Gordon provides us with some very contemptuous references to Jewish character and identity that would make Nazi ideology look mildly liberal.

However, one is advised to take a short break for a second and to contemplate critically over the above Zionist dream. One may wonder what kind of people dream of ‘becoming human beings’. Can anyone imagine a French, English or Chinese man or woman who dreams of becoming an ordinary ‘human’? We can easily think of oppressed human beings who demand to be treated as humans (Palestinians, Civil Rights movements, anti Apartheid and so on). Yet, the Zionist dream is rather different. It is not just about the desire for recognition or equality, it is not just about being treated appropriately, it is also a dream of ‘self-transformation’. In fact, it is all about a miraculous metamorphosis from a morbid ‘abnormal’ state of being into an acceptable decent human form.

Within the context of a fictional fable we can easily imagine a cow that fantasises to become a dairy farmer, a pig who ‘dies to’ become a Kosher schnitzel, a snake who aspires to take over the Labour party and then to launch a new Zionist illegal war. And yet, it is pretty unusual to think of people who have managed to develop an aspiration to become ‘ordinary humans’.

An intelligible way to explain or interpret that very unusual dream is probably to assume that those who succumb to the Zionist dream are those who happen to believe that, as far as their natural state of being is concerned, they are indeed remotely human. One would rightly assume that those who dream to become humans must be convinced that humanity is somehow not exactly a characteristic that they happen to possess.

Yesterday during a talk at Librairie Résistances, Paris (a fund raising event for Gaza) I was asked for my interpretation of Israeli ‘evolving barbarism’, how is it possible that 94% of the Israelis supported the IDF genocidal crime in Gaza last December. “In order to understand how these Israeli murderous practices emerged” I said, “all we have to do is to trace back and reread the early Zionist ideologists.” We can easily learn from Zionist thinkers about their ‘dream’ and their vision of their fellow brothers. They, the founders of modern Jewish nationalism happened to admit somehow that something was totally corrupted within the Jewish identity, culture and character. However, they genuinely believed that it was amendable.

Zionism was there to bring about a new Jew, a civilised productive human being. It was indeed a very wet and epic dream. As an Israeli youngster I myself succumbed to this dream. I tended to believe that Israel was ‘my’ historic land, I regarded the Biblical protagonists as my direct ancestors. I was sure that, at least in the case of the so called ‘first Israelis’, the ideological transplant operation was a great success. We, the young Israeli natives tended to believe that we were all nothing less than a success story of ‘modified-civilised-humanist-secular-beings’.

Needless to say that the history of Palestine, the Palestinians and the Nakba was totally hidden from us. We didn’t see the Palestinians around us either, we were hardly aware of their suffering not to say their cause. We were in fact totally blind. We tended also to believe that our army was the ‘most humanist army around’. We grew up with the ‘1967 Victorious Diary’, a legendary chunky photo album every Israeli held in a prominent location on his book shelve. There in that glossy propaganda book an Israeli soldier was giving his water to an Egyptian prisoner. We regarded him as a symbol of our people’s endorsement of universal humanism. We were obviously not aware of the horrendous fact that the Sinai Desert was actually a slaughter field for hundreds of Egyptian POWs. Why didn’t we know? This in itself is a very good question. Our fathers who fought in this war must have known something but they kept quiet. Our parents who witnessed the 1948 convoys of Palestinians refugees should have known something about the Nakba but they somehow kept quiet. Interestingly enough, it wasn’t just our parents, we followed the exact same pattern. Once we ourselves matured into IDF soldiers, we did exactly the same, we turned a blind eye (1982 in Lebanon). And this has never changed. The Israeli moral awakening has never happened. By now I allow myself to argue that it won’t happen. The Zionist dream is just too comfortable. After more than one hundred years of moral phantasmic delusion the Israelis are deeply stuck in an ethical coma.

The Zionist dream of a ‘humanist metamorphosis’ has never matured into reality or practice. Quite the opposite, Israelis and Zionists have learned to see themselves through a phantasmic illusionary prism. Rather than being transformed into humanists for real, they have become ‘leading humanists’ in their own extreme judeo-centric dream.

Freud taught us that the dream is there to prolong the sleep: a siren, a baby cry and a dripping tap that takes place in the outside would be incorporated into the dream so we can keep snoozing. The ‘Israeli humanist dream’ operates in a similar manner, it is there to prolong the Zionist snore, it is there to keep Jews aloof to the crimes that are committed by their state, and in their names. The disturbances that come from the ‘outside world’ such as the Goldstone report or Ahmadinejad’s valid criticisms are incorporated into their dream as ‘white noise’ motivated by ‘pathological antisemitism’. Though in reality the Jewish state is barbarian with no comparison, in their dream, it is nothing but ‘business as usual’.

The daily reality of Israeli barbarism in Palestine should bring us back to elaborate over the Zionist dream of transformation. In spite of the great promise, the Jewish state has failed to become a ‘nation like other nations’. Similarly, the Zionist people are not exactly ‘people like other people’ for no other people approve genocide collectively.

The Jewish state that was supposed to be a celebration of identity transformation became instead the ultimate embodiment of the morbid symptoms Zionism was there to heal. Israel has already managed to surround itself by gigantic ghetto walls, it spits fire and WMD on its indigenous population. It locks millions in concentration camps and starves them. As bizarre as it may be, only in the face of Israeli colossal barbarism, can one adequately understand the full meaning of the irony of the Zionist dream of humanist metamorphosis.

Zionism was doomed to fail: it is a blood related project, it is racially orientated and it is supremacist to the bone. The Zionist dream has become a true devastating nightmare for real: the Golem1 Jewish State wakes up every morning to commit more and more crimes in the name of the Jewish people. With an arsenal of hundreds of nuclear bombs and motivated by a phantasmic Holocaust religion that preaches nothing but vengeance, there is no greater danger to humanity, humanism and our civilization than Israel and its lobbies around the world.

All I have to say is beware!

  1. Golem – a Yiddish Frankenstein. []
Gilad Atzmon, now living in London, was born in Israel and served in the Israeli military. He is the author of The Wandering Who and Being in Time and is one of the most accomplished jazz saxophonists in Europe. He can be reached via his website. Read other articles by Gilad, or visit Gilad's website.

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  1. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on October 9th, 2009 at 12:39pm #

    For unclear, or better yet, unkown reasons, US fully approbates each and every crime that israelis have commited over the last 90 yrs.
    A long time ago, Israelis knew that they wld get away with any crime and not only that, but knew that the fresh arms wld be delivered to them after some crimes, solely to do more murdering.
    tnx

  2. deceschi said on October 9th, 2009 at 3:23pm #

    The fact alone that in Israel live 1.5 millions Palestinian Arabs with civil rights and their political representatives in the Knesset, shows the absurdity of your accusations against the (early) Zionism and Israel. You are the living proof that Jews and even Israelis can hate Israel, for whatever personal reason. But you are still free to express your wrong ideas, no fatwa will hit you because of your acid personal anti-Israeli invectives. The custom to persecute people for their beliefs doesn’t belong to Judaism, but rather to the other monotheistic religions.
    What you do fail to see and to understand is the fact that, as the early Zionism, that means Jewish immigrants in British Palestine, was confronted with a violent and extremistic Arab opposition since the beginning of its activities and had to find the way to oppose effectively in order to survive, so the modern state of Israel was facing and is still facing the same form of extremistic intollerance since its birth. It is mainly this same intollerance that wants today a “judenrein” Middle East – free of Jews. That is the main reason for Israel’s military might, the reason for the separation fence/wall (no more terror within Israel), the reason for the checkpoints, even the reason for the settlements and the occupation in West Bank. It’s a struggle to survive in a hostile environment. Actually, it’s this same environment, which includes the Palestinians, that seldom missed and miss the opportunity to demostrate its intollerance (and racism) against the Jewish state and presence in Middle East. When this form of barbarism, which you (un)willingly support with your one-side one-eyed and sterile controversy against Israel and the people of your same origin, will end, also Zionism and Israel will indeed appear to you in their original form: as the realization of a strong religious and humanistic ideal that is waiting to be fullfilled.

  3. Deadbeat said on October 9th, 2009 at 11:42pm #

    You cannot possibly come away from even a single trip around the West Bank without realizing that Zionism is no mere abstract political philosophy but is an aggressive, exclusivist movement of Jewish redemption intended from the beginning to sweep everything non-Jewish from its path. On each trip we have made since 2003, things have grown worse for Palestinians. You can actually see this Jewish implantation across the land — the whole land of Palestine — in concrete form, actually see that Zionism has no room in its thinking, and Israeli leaders have no room in their policies, to accommodate any non-Jews at all, any Palestinians, living in Palestine in freedom and equality.

    New Crisis Developing in Palestine
    By KATHLEEN and BILL CHRISTISON

  4. Bo said on October 10th, 2009 at 12:18am #

    Publishing Atzmon articles really calls into question the integrity and the character of the anti-Zionism of ‘Dissident Voice’.

  5. Mulga Mumblebrain said on October 10th, 2009 at 2:52am #

    As always decrepsi practises that Zionazi standard rhetorical device-projection and reality inversion. The only people who wish the Near East ethnically cleansed of any race are the Zionazis, and they wish an Eretz Yisrael, a ‘Jewish state’ (an open proclamation of Judaic apartheid) that is Arabrein. We have sixty years of unbroken evidence of this purpose, not just in the Herrenvolk’s words, but their deeds. The ethnic cleansing of Plan Dalet, the Palestinian ‘Nakbah’, has long been witnessed by the Palestinian victims, Palestinian historians and Israeli ‘New Historians’. One need only consult Ilan Pappe’s ‘The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine’, or another Jewish truth-teller, Noam Chomsky’s ‘Fateful Triangle’, to see it all laid bare.
    However, for Zionazi liars and propagandists, all faithful adherents of Hitler’s dictum to tell a Big Lie when lying, (and no-one is more audacious, has greater chutzpah than a Zionazi liar) none of this easily verifiable history exists. In its place is a sordid faery story, where the Chosen People are always morally immaculate, always totally in the right, even when killing children in the hundreds, and their victims, are to a man, the embodiment of evil, wrong every singly time without exception. Of course they think like this,or pretend to do so, because of their unmatched narcissism, their religious belief that they are the supreme beings of the Universe, and because of the hatred and rage at non-Jews, for epochs of strife and violence, culminating in the Nazi Judeocide. There are enough sane Jews extant, those who would live in peace with their neighbours and who see themselves as just another tribe of humanity, for us to know that the Zionazis are pathological, psychologically, morally and politically, but,unfortunately,the evil ones dominate Jewry today, and also, through their money power, the utterly corrupted West. As long as these evil lunatics can murder defenceless civilians in their hundreds, as their perverted ‘religious leaders’ proclaim this murder a ‘good deed’, and spray lies, invective and vitriol at all those who dare protest the humanity of the victims of these barbarities, then they will remain one of the most reviled groups on the planet, as they are, and justifiably so. And that is a great pity and a shame, but evil must be resisted, no matter how fine the false raiments in which it dresses itself.

  6. dino said on October 10th, 2009 at 9:15am #

    deceitsky,you have a narrow propagandist mind.The first thing you made is to remind the fatwa against Rushdie issued by KHomeiny is if this lauded that he build a “Jewish democracy”.And after it the bomb :”You are the living proof that Jews and even Israelis can hate Israel, for whatever personal reason. But you are still free to express your wrong ideas, no fatwa will hit you because of your acid personal anti-Israeli invectives. The custom to persecute people for their beliefs doesn’t belong to Judaism, but rather to the other monotheistic religions.”It is so far to be true:Spinoza was expelled from Jewish Community and persecuted by it and Uriel da Costa was pushed to suicide by the same Community.Read the biography of Heine and think what happened to Itzhak Rabin before he was killed by a fanatic Jew pushed by fanatic rabbis (have to see the film made by Michael Karpin about the atmosphere before he was killed and see masses of fanatics incited to crime by Sharon,Bibi and all the honorables of the present days),think of Vanunu,think of Grinberg,a leftist ,shot by a fanatic religious Jew but in principal think don’t talk.

  7. B99 said on October 10th, 2009 at 10:23am #

    Dizzy – Except to trot out the fact that Palestinian-Israelis have elected representatives in Parliament they don’t exist for you but as a possible fifth column. Of course, in an alleged democracy, there is nothing remarkable about one-fifth of the population having electoral representation. But in your mind – Israeli means Jewish. Palestinian Israelis are kept under wraps just as Jim Crow blacks were in the American South. The Palestinian-Israeli narrative is untold – it does not exist in public discourse. They are the non-people, the other. So to say that Palestinian Israelis have civil rights and elected representatives is to say little at all. They have second class citizen rights. Would you like me to list the laws in Israel favoring Jews? Further, here has only been one – ONE – Palestinian with a cabinet post position – I believe he was minister of backyard bbq or similar. And we have not even begun to address the issue of the Apartheid government Israel administers in the West Bank. How many representatives do THEY have in the knesset? To whom did THEY cast their ballot for in the last Israeli election? Oh,but of course, they are not allowed to vote at all.

    The custom to persecute for beliefs is not so strong among Jews as the custom to persecute for race.

    The immigration of Jews to Palestine – all illegal – was met with hostility for the reasons YOU outlined in the British White Paper. It is the same opposition that Native-Americans felt for THEIR replacement population. It is opposition to losing their land, their country, their status, and even their lives to outsiders who have no history what so ever in the region.

    However, I am pleased that you are admitting that the way to peace is through ever expanding Jewish presence on the West Bank. Jabotinsky would have been proud of that bizarre line of thinking. The way to peace is Jews First, Jews only – yeah, that makes sense.

    Time for another history lesson.

  8. B99 said on October 10th, 2009 at 10:24am #

    How the Jews stole Palestine:
    The Jews massacre of Pals in Deir Yassin – BEFORE independence was declared – and OUTSIDE the area slotted by the UN for Jews – “There is…no doubt that many sexual atrocities were committed by the attacking Jews. Many young school girls were raped and later slaughtered. Old women were also molested. Many infants were also butchered.”

  9. B99 said on October 10th, 2009 at 10:25am #

    How the Jews stole Palestine:
    In other Palestinian villages similar attacks were carried out by the Jews. The usual method was to blow up as many houses as possible, bomb them with mortars and rockets – but also loudspeaker broadcasts of poison gas warnings and atomic weapons. In quick succession, Palestinian towns – Tiberias, Haifa, Jaffa, Acre and Arab Jerusalem were emptied of their native population.

  10. B99 said on October 10th, 2009 at 10:26am #

    How the Jews stole Palestine:
    The Jewish genocide plan was known as Plan Dalet, the fourth of such elimination plans. Many Palestinians in Haifa were literally driven into the sea where they drowned, others driven into the desert, where they perished as well.

  11. deceschi said on October 11th, 2009 at 8:02am #

    dinosaur – Spinoza was not persecuted by the dutch Jewish community, but expelled from it because of his – from the orthodox perspective – “heretical” views on G’d and the creation. The other examples are exceptions, not systematic persecutions, as we know them well from the Christianity and Islam.

    mulgi – not only you are clear racist, you also suffer from a huge inferiority complex. How we can expect from a person like you to see and understand reality as it is!

    bully99 – how many Arabs are living today in the tiny land of Israel and how many Jews do live today in all Arab countries together? 1.5 millions to not more than 8 thousands.

    Only the simply comparison of these figures shows us who is telling the truth (not a pure truth but a honest one) and who is here following his own propagandist agenda (the extreme loquacity is indeed proof enough).

    À propos history lessons:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

  12. mary said on October 11th, 2009 at 8:20am #

    I would surmise that that Wikipedia page is straight out of CAMERA operatives’ desktops.

    How CAMERA works
    CAMERA systematically monitors, documents, reviews and archives Middle East coverage. Staffers directly contact reporters, editors, producers and publishers concerning distorted or inaccurate coverage, offering factual information to refute errors. CAMERA members are encouraged to write letters for publication in the print media and to communicate with correspondents, anchors and network officials in the electronic media. CAMERA’s combination of rigorous monitoring, research, fact-checking, careful analysis, and grassroots efforts have had a documented impact.

    http://www.camera.org/

  13. deceschi said on October 11th, 2009 at 9:50am #

    Do you have only one reliable source about this issue on your side???

    Of course, Maria copia&pasta relies exclusively on anti-Zionist sources. Very informative, indeed …

  14. B99 said on October 11th, 2009 at 9:52am #

    Dizzy – There are about 6 million Jews in Israel/Palestine and about 6 million Palestinians in Israel/Palestine. Those are the people and numbers you have to deal with. References to spare numbers of Jews elsewhere or the large number of non-Palestinian Arabs elsewhere are extraneous to the argument of how the Jews got Palestine and how they must make amends.

  15. mary said on October 11th, 2009 at 11:48am #

    My name is Mary. Why do you alter people’s names? To diminish them? To demean them perhaps?

    A Ziionist source – try Dr Luntz’s cure-all from the Israel Project? All 116 pages that is.

    http://tiny.cc/emTO4

  16. deceschi said on October 11th, 2009 at 1:09pm #

    Bully, is it really so extraneous? Maybe because you are blind to the fact that about 40% of the Israeli Jewish population are Jews who fled or were expelled from Arab countries after 1948. People who were received and integrated in the young Israeli society. With success, as we know. Not so the Palestinian refugees in the neighbouring Arab countries. The Palestinian issue must in fact be considered part of the Arab world’s problem with and in the same time strategy against Israel – because of its repeated defeats in previous wars actually the main war horse against the Jewish state.

    And as for the amends, a honest guy like you is surely also favorable that the Arab states responsible of ethnic cleansing against their Jewish citizens make amends to them for all the expropriations of land, properties, abuses and pogroms they were subjected to.

    mary c&p: perché capisci roma per toma?
    I asked you a reliable source about the Jewish exodus from Arab lands, not a PR operation for Israel to contrast the media war against – I’m not interested in propaganda, ok.?

  17. B99 said on October 11th, 2009 at 3:13pm #

    Those Jews were encouraged to emigrate by Israel which had antagonized the Arab states through the ethnic cleansing of its native natural population of Palestinians. Until that point, Jews standard of living, quality of life, and relations with the majority populations were LIGHT YEARS better than Jewish relations with European gentiles. That immigration of Jews is by Israel’s hand – not the Arab states. They were integrated (though not assimilated) into Israeli life by putting them on the borders to shoot returning Palestinians, by putting them in rural areas to work the farms, and in rural areas to collect the garbage for their Ashkenazi overlords.

    As for the expelled Palestinians, first and foremost – they want their homes and land back, they have the keys and deeds to their properties. And secondly, the LAW is that Israel is required to permit the return of the refugees (and that applies both as international LAW and by the specific stipulation by which Israel gained admittance to the UN). All Arab states understand that the answer lies with Israel obeying the LAW, not by solving Israel’s racial problem for them.

    There were no wars against the Jewish state – all wars began with attacks on Arab land by Israel. Do we have to repeat the laundry list of Jewish wars against its native population AND against its neighbors?

    The issue of Jews making aliyah from Arab states is logically (and OFFICIALLY as per Taba) an issue between those states, not the Palestinians. As I stated earlier – none of this has anything to do with the Palestinians (other than these Arab Jews got their land), as the Palestinians were in no way responsible for Israeli foreign policy.

  18. deceschi said on October 12th, 2009 at 6:45am #

    “Those Jews were encouraged to emigrate by Israel …..”

    Both is true, but in the reversed sense. Because of Arab pogroms, land thefts and expulsion policies towards Jews, premeditately coordinated by the Arab League, Israel was able to encourage them to make aliyah and give them a safe haven. In fact, the Iranian Jews feel today still enough safe, so that they don’t need to make aliyah, but situation could change very quickly.

    “Until that point, Jews standard of living, quality of life, and relations with the majority populations were LIGHT YEARS better than Jewish relations with European gentiles.”

    Until 1933 the Jews in Europe enjoyed a high standart of life due to their bourgeois emancipation during the 19th century. On the other hand, the status of the Jewish “Dhimmis” was far from being just. There were a lot of restrictions in civil life of Jews, they had to pay a “tribute”, a yearly poll tax, they were forced to wear a distinctive clothing. Besides, the were subiected to regular violence (mass murder, destruction of sinagogues and so on) and in 19th century they were forced in most of North Africa to live in ghettos. The attitude of the Muslims toward the Jews (and Christians) is that of a master towards slaves, whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.

    More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940’s in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen. This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries. For instance, in 1941, in Iraq, the most prosperous Jewish community in the Middle East, a massive pogrom broke out during an anti-British, pro-German coup. Arab soldiers, paramilitary groups, and urban mobs killed 180 Jews, destroyed many homes and businesses, and left twelve thousand homeless.

    Maybe it’s because of the many centuries of repression and persecution towards Jews that today Arabs have such a deep insurmountable feeling of wounded pride and hatred towards Israel?

    “And secondly, the LAW is that Israel is required to permit the return of the refugees …”.

    The LAW is not only on Arab side . (Palestinians are integral part of the Arab world, if this would not be the case, peace would have been reached already in 1948.) Every claimed concession towards Israel must be counterbalanced by a step from the Arabs, this means the full recognition of Israel as state of the Jews living in Middle East. You can not expect the solution to the problem of refugees by Israel alone, while the Arabs and Palestinians can continue undisturbed their hostile policies and their propaganda against the Jewish state. There must be reciprocity and cooperation. But Arabs don’t seem interested in this: they prefer to raise the stakes and put pressure as much they can on Israel – surely not for peace, but in order to weaken their “chosen enemy”. They never really distantly removed from their “Khartoum-syndrome” (No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it, and insistence on the rights of the Palestinian people in their own country). And I guess, this is your position too …..

  19. B99 said on October 12th, 2009 at 8:51am #

    Dizzy – There were only 2 things premeditated (the Arab states being abysmally slow to respond to the European excision) – the intent to create a race-based Jewish state and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine of its native natural population by these very Jews. That’s your premeditation. All else is a reaction to the original crimes.

    Speaking of crimes, Israel is dead guilty of poisoning relations between Arabs and Jews. It was Israel – not the Arabs – that planted bombs in Baghdad and blew up a synagogue so as to be blamed on Arab ‘terrorism.’ Israel’s intent was to kill Jews for the greater cause. Israel also conducted the Lavon Affair – also involving explosives – in Egypt which intent was to poison relations between the US and Egypt (and the Arab world) – to Israel’s benefit. It was Israel that blew up a Syrian passenger airliner, and it was the Jews who nefariously sunk their own refugee ship with the death of hundreds of Jews, and pointed fingers at Brits and Arabs. And it was of course, the Jews who committed one terror act after another against the British even though it was the Brits who made Israel possible.

    Yes, because of the Enlightenment in Europe, Jews began to have other options besides parsing the words of the talmud. That was far more true in the west than in the east where Jews were STILL undergoing pogroms, still undergoing extreme degrees of discrimination, and still wrapped up in their own little medieval worlds. Until the Enlightenment, Jews certainly lived better in the Arab/Muslim world. There, Jews were Dhimmi, but so too were Christians – and other religions were held in even less regard. It was not anti-Semitism. Jews were often segregated but that was often as not – congregation as well, that is, by their own choice. Nonetheless, Jews have always held highly regarded positions in the Muslim world political hierarchy – and as a whole prospered.

    By the 1940s, the handwriting was not only on the wall, but the Jewish state was nearing reality. If it had not been clear to all by then – Biltmore made it so. The Ashkenazis thought they could steal a country without backlash – that they could encourage Jews to emigrate by jeopardizing relations between Jews and Arabs in their native countries.

    Yes, the LAW. UN 194 calls for Israel to permit the return of the Palestinian refugees. And the Geneva Conventions guarantee the right of all refugees to return to their homes, land and country. This is unequivocal.

    You already have the grand concession by the Arab states. You have the offer of full recognition by all 22 Arab states, agreed to by Hamas and Fatah – and which has the acquiescence of non-Arab Muslim states as well. This, Israel ignored – why? Because it requires a just peace – that Israel go back to Israel. The Arabs put the ball in your court – they called your bluff – and you dropped the ball. Your proper response was to say – yes, this offer is worth considering, and we admit that which we all know to be historical – that the Palestinians were violently expelled in 1948, and so we are willing to enter negotiations as to the resolution of this issue. BUT, you can’t go there, because you not only want a race-based state, you NOW want the Arabs to recognize a race-based state. So you move the goal posts.

    The Palestinians have cooperated far more than enough – they have been almost as meek before the onslaught as the stetl Jews. You took their land in 1948 and the rest of it in 1967 – and when did the first intifada break out? 1989. Until then, you were putting Jews on the WB&G, installing quisling mayors and phony governments (the Village Leagues) in WB towns, and breaking the bones of any who dared object. I think almost a quarter century of quiet by the Palestinians is more than sufficient, don’t you?

    There is almost no pressure from the Arab states – they are bought off by the US – so Jordan and the Saudis are quiet. And as the Arab states say – you have to return to Israel and agree to negotiate the refugee problem. So the problem is not with the Arabs – and certainly not with the Palestinians – it is with the Jewish desire for a larger Erez Israel.

    You raise Khartoum?? What did you think, the Arab states were going to negotiate the invasion and occupation of the rest of Palestine? Hell no – like the Nazi occupation of Poland or the Sudetenland – the departure of Israel from the misbegotten territories is unconditional. Like Khartoum says, it is non-negotiable.

    Yes, that is my position – I take my lead from the Palestinians.

  20. deceschi said on October 12th, 2009 at 2:34pm #

    “Yes, that is my position – I take my lead from the Palestinians.”

    Your strategy is so far very clear: deny every evidence and blame Israel for every sin. Nothing new under the sun.

    “There are about 6 million Jews in Israel/Palestine and about 6 million Palestinians in Israel/Palestine.”
    “UN 194 calls for Israel to permit the return of the Palestinian refugees. And the Geneva Conventions guarantee the right of all refugees to return to their homes, land and country. This is unequivocal.”

    Not true: the most of the 6 millions Arab Palestinians are in Jordan – once part of British Palestine – and there is the place where they will stay for ever. The Arab plan of 2002 – based on Resolution 194 – expects from Israel to accept millions of refugees and their relatives. This is the only solution proposed by Arab countries for their “beloved” Palestinian brethren – in exchange for the normalisation of the relationships with Israel. But that means for Israel to commit suicide. This is not acceptable, Bully. The proposals must be reasonable, and must be based on compromise, peace talks and “painful concessions” on BOTH sides. Your claim, that’s the same of the Arabs and Palestinians, demands Israel to surrender unconditionally without defending herself. That is what you always wanted, from the beginning. You are not for a just settlement. It will not and never work in this way. The Arab plan shows only the strong resistance of the Arabs in recognizing Israel as a mainly (but not merely) Jewish state as their neighbour. Since we don’t get it by war, let’s try by overhelming them through demographics. And you call this serious. On the other hand, Arabs expelled their Jewish citizens, but guess if they agree to receive them and their descendants back ….

    “I think almost a quarter century of quiet by the Palestinians is more than sufficient, don’t you?”. Do you means this kind of quiet?

    One simple example?
    According to the BBC, “Mr Arafat took over as chairman of the executive committee of the PLO in 1969, a year that Fatah is recorded to have carried out 2,432 guerrilla attacks on Israel.” (bbc news)

    “There is almost no pressure from the Arab states.”

    How many resolutions against Israek were forced by the Arab coalition?

    “So the problem is not with the Arabs – and certainly not with the Palestinians – it is with the Jewish desire for a larger Erez Israel.”

    No, the desire of Israel is to live in peace and security. But if this is not possible on the peaceful way (and Arabs/Palestinians as a whole and in the single way till today don’t demostrate a true peace will), so Israel must assure her security (against terror threats from abroad: Syria, Iran and proxies) by creating a difensive buffer – both in military and demographic shape. A true desire for peace from the Arab world (Palestinians are indissolubly part of this) will lead to a withdrawal from the buffer zone.

    “You raise Khartoum?? What did you think, the Arab states were going to negotiate the invasion and occupation of the rest of Palestine?”

    Was the position of the Arab states different BEFORE the 67-war? No. The Khatoum-resolution stated and confirmed what was already “modus operandi” since 1948. Nothing new under the sun ….

  21. Mulga Mumblebrain said on October 12th, 2009 at 5:18pm #

    Poor old decrepit is getting worked-up again, and projecting, his favourite rhetorical device. Israel is the aggressor, the colonial imposition on the people of the Near East, inflicted by Western racist and imperialists. It has as much legitimacy as its Doppelganger, apartheid South Africa. The Afrikaaners thought they were Chosen by God, too, but they were just beginners in the Messianic delusion stakes besides the true Herrenvolk. Israel came into being in massive ethnic cleansing, deliberately engineered through massacre and murder. Apparently this is one ethnic cleansing that must be allowed to stand unresolved, because the murderers were operating on orders from the Great Jew in the Sky, ie themselves. The victims were sub-humans (as we all are before this Master Race) so they must accept their fate, or, perhaps, be exterminated as Amalek.According to the decrepit one, in any case they deserve their fate because they are Moslems, and some Moslems, allegedly once dealt badly with Jews in Yemen or Morocco, hundreds of years ago. In perverted Zionazi mentalities, that alleged crime, of course utterly unprovoked because the Herrenvolk are, by definition, incapable of crime, and the goyim only exist to kill Jews and get in their way, is justification for barbecuing Gazan children with white phosphorus. To raise any objection to the Chosen Ones going about their Holy Work in Gaza, of course, reveals one to be an anti-Semite, a New Hitler just aching to re-open Auschwitz.
    I do love your proposal for a ‘defensive buffer’. That would be Eretz Yisrael, ‘from the Nile to the Euphrates’ apparently including Saudi Arabia, too. Is it not a fact that your type claim eternal ownership, from God Himself, for every square inch any Jew ever lived on or purported to live on, and the ‘two-legged animals’ who resided there for the other 99% of human history can go to hell?What I do admire about your type decrepsi is not the obsessive lying, the mentality of absolute supremacism and contempt for the goyim that allows you to recite a history where the Jews are always innocent victims, and the goyim always murderous animals, but your sheer psychotic arrogance in doing so. That is the Zionazi Gold Standard, that dominates and controls the Western world, and like all psychopathies, for example that of the serial killer, needs greater and greater stimulus to be, temporarily, sublimated. Hence Israel’s crueller and crueller massacres, atrocities like the siege of Gaza, or the levelling of Lebanon and the destruction of Iraq, with Iran next in line.

  22. B99 said on October 12th, 2009 at 7:19pm #

    Dizzy – You have yet to present any evidence. EVERYTHING you present is agitprop 101. It is what one would read in a publication of AIPAC. It’s bad history, bad geography, bad political science. There is NOTHING you can present that has a semblance of truth to it – because by now you would have done so if you could have done so. I know all the answers to your misinformation because everything you post is verifiably wrong on the public record – and can be answered extemporaneously.

    As we’ve made clear here – the original sin is that of the Jews – sponsored by the Brits – establishing a colony in an already inhabited land. You CAN”T get around that fact. Yet you persist in bringing up extraneous material – and its absolutely incorrect on its own terms. Are you ignorant of the truth or lying through your teeth?

    Case in point – you bring up Jordan where Palestinians now make up half its citizenry – and say they will stay there forever. What the eff is forever? How do you know that? Palestinians in Jordan may or may not consider themselves refugees, and those that do are entitled to return or compensation. Maybe they will stay in Jordan, maybe in the state of Palestine, maybe return home to what is now Israel, or maybe accept compensation. Nonetheless, there are 6 million Palestinians who either live now or once lived in Palestine but were evicted by the Jews.

    The Arab plan of 2002 does NOT require Israel to accept millions of Palestinians – it only requires a ‘just settlement’ of that issue. How is that suicide? Is it suicide for Americans that Jews live here? Is it suicide for Belgium to have Flemish and Walloon speaking populations, or for Switzerland to have French, German, and Italian speaking populations? How is it you get to commit mass homicide and now get to say that living with their descendants is suicide? That’s idiocy. You should have considered your repugnance of gentiles when you first went over there.

    And yes, Jews are allowed to return to their Arab native countries.

    What guerilla attacks on Israel? There was no organized violent resistance to Israel. There was a violent occupation however – by Israel.

    I think the UN is a proper forum for Arab states to express their displeasure at Israel’s occupation of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt. What, they were supposed to say the occupation of their countries was A-OK?

    The proof is in the pudding. It’s the settlements. They are a transparent effort to create ‘facts on the ground’ – that is, a larger Israel. You can’t pretend that taking what’s left of Palestine is about peace. It is anti-peace. Permanently so.

    And you know why the position of the Arab states was essentially the same from 1948 to 1967? what did you do in 1948? Ethnic cleansing. What did you do in 1967? Ethnic cleansing. STILL, you have Khartoum 42 years ago – and now you have the Arab Peace Initiative. And what has Israel done to reciprocate? Nothing at all – unless you want to count putting more Jews on the West Bank. That, at bottom, says it all. You’ve earned nothing and you’ve learned nothing.

  23. deceschi said on October 13th, 2009 at 3:18am #

    Mulgi Emptybrain is spinning his hateful anti-Semitic medieval blood libels again. Nothing to add: this hung-up Jew-hater is speaking for himself …

  24. deceschi said on October 13th, 2009 at 3:33am #

    Bully – your views are distorted, one-sided and reductive, like your sources. There is no balance in your position, only Israel-bashing and disproportionate claims that never will be implemented. If Palestinians have your mind-set, so it doesn’t surprise me anymore that there is no way out of the impasse. You deny the Arab annihilation aims and wars and you deny the Palestinian terror, while at the same time denying to Israel the right to defend herself. Israel will not withdraw from the West Bank when there is no peace. You must understand this, Bully. Gaza docet! The return of the occupied territories shall happen through direct peace talks, within a comprehensive peace agreement with the palestininas in particular and the Arab world as a whole. This is a inequivocable condition.

  25. b99 said on October 13th, 2009 at 6:18am #

    dizzy – It is not a matter of balance when it comes to human justice and self-determination. You have YOUR country, yet you deny the Palestinians there’s – and even deny them a right to return to their ancestral homeland. And you try to pass these race-based beliefs here on DV (and apparently elsewhere) as if they were rational discourse. All your arguments are based in being a Zionist Jew. All my arguments are based in social justice and actual history (a history now accepted by ALL Israeli historians! – which historians provide much of the content of my remarks here.)

    You pretend there is an Arab annhilation threat so that you can keep push your erez Israel program. All the Arab states want to do is trade with Israel. The Palestinians are essentially alone – and at the mercy of Israel – a state and a people from which no mercy has ever come.

    So let’s recap the wars – Israel began its genocide of the Palestinians in late ’47, well before the Arab states got involved (see what the Jews did in Haifa and Deir Yassin among other locales). Israel attacked Egypt outright in 1956 (C’mon guy, you are not denying this are you?), Israel attacked Egypt again in 1967 (and Syria and Jordan). Israel attacked Egypt again in 1970. In 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked Israeli-occupied Egypt and Syria. In 1979, Israel attacked Lebanon, this war carried on thru 1982, and the occupation of Lebanon continued until several years ago. In the meantime, Israel kept parts of Syria, Egypt and Jordan – still holding on to the latter two – illegally, of course. In 1989, the Palestinians responded to 22 years of foreign subjugation with an uprising – violently squashed by Israel. Twenty-one years later, a second uprising against their subjugators – with the same catastrophic result. Since then, Israel has again attacked Lebanon (where it finally got its ass kicked), and blitzkrieged Gaza, where it massacred nearly 1,400 city-dwellers.

    Palestinian terror? They are under occupation. They have every right to resist. The Warsaw ghetto denizens had every right to resist and so too the Jews of Bar Kochba fame. So why don’t you try reversing course – instead of annexing ever more native property, try doing the right thing – go home to Israel – the country behind whose pre-67 borders the world recognizes? You CANNOT claim defense of Israel while attacking your neighbors and inhaling their land. The Palestinians will NOT submit to your repression – you can not have peace thru Apartheid – nor do you deserve peace. The WORLD has spoken on this – Israel out of the West Bank and Gaza! This is the LAW! If you do not obey the law, you cannot act surprised if someday the UN comes down on you unequivocably. Of course, by then you may have accomplished your goal of dispersal, dismemberment and death of an entire nation.

    In the meantime, you ignore the Arab Peace Initiative – which makes you a liar about advocating ‘direct peace talks.’

    It’s obvious that some Jews have learned precisely the wrong lesson of the Holocaust.

  26. B99 said on October 13th, 2009 at 5:17pm #

    Dizzy – But you know why there was an Arab revolt – you graciously posted the Haycroft Report outlining the reasons. Now if you will just review it – and while you are at it, read the Shaw Report – you’ll will then understand the reasons why Injuns kicked back.

    But you just have to remember – the Jews invaded Palestine, the Palestinians did not invade the Pale of Russia. And then the source of Palestine’s Jewish problem is revealed.

  27. B99 said on October 13th, 2009 at 5:20pm #

    BTW – There is no such thing as a ‘mainly Jewish state.’ It is either a “Jewish State” or the ‘State of its Citizens” . That of course, is a non-starter (which is why the Zyonz insist on it).

    And the settlers have to return to Israel – the only home they have.

  28. sid wright said on October 14th, 2009 at 3:21am #

    israel IS a 100% jewish state in the same way as saudi arabia,iran,pakistan,syria,indonesia,iraq,lbia,egypt are muslim states.
    not all israeli citizens are however jewish
    a subtle difference b99

  29. Mulga Mumblebrain said on October 14th, 2009 at 3:42am #

    The only subtle difference sid, is that Israel is a 100% apartheid state like its lost love and firm friend, Afrikaaner South Africa. Mind you there must have been some tensions, what with the Afrikaaners imagining themselves a ‘Chosen People’. After all the Jews invented that racket three thousand years ago, and have intellectual property rights to it. For the 20% of Israel’s population who are Arabic, they live in sceond-class conditions, corralled in the Galilee, and slowly being ethnically cleansed from other regions. Their schools, hospitals and villages are deliberately neglected, military bases and installations are placed near their villages, making them targets in time of war, another form of Israel’s old tactic of using ‘human shields’, they are occasionally massacred, as at the beginning of the al-Aqsa Intifada, and they are constantly threatened by Israeli fascists, a growing fraction of Israeli Jewish society, with ethnic cleansing, under the euphemism ‘transfer’.

  30. deceschi said on October 14th, 2009 at 5:47am #

    You can moan as much you want, e-brain. Are you ready to accept 20 % of Jews as part of the population in a future Palestinian state? Jewish settlers are now 300.000, 120.000 are still missing to 20 %. Don’t like the idea?
    And how many Jews are yet living in Arab world, whose population amounts to 300.000.000 people ? Less than 8000, you say? Is this apartheid or what? It seems me pretty rather to be a forgotten ethnic cleansing against the Jewish communities, no? The subtle difference is that Israel took care of the Jewish refugees, differently than the Arab states with their “brothers”.

    So, you are against apartheid. Very noble. Why don’t you apply your sense of justice and fairness on Arab/Muslim states too? What about Darfur? What about Iran? Is the idea of a Islamic ruled Palestinian state ok. for you, as Hamas & Co. so strongly desires? Is Middle East Islam even remotely able to consider to cohabit with democratic rules, in a democracy? Can you imagine?

  31. missvi said on October 14th, 2009 at 6:21am #

    Why is it when someone addresses one issue in one country, people jump in and say “oh but what about blah and what about blah and bla bla bla.”

    my friend your numbers and your information is off. i suggest you review your history before you jump in a debate.

    oh by the way…

    http://www.alternativenews.org/akiva-orr/2134-israel-not-a-jewish-state-a-zionist-state.html

    some good information in there… not many people know that Israel collected reparations from germany for the holocaust survivors yet no one received a red cent.

    i’ve been organizing for peace and justice in the middle east… i work with several Jewish organizations who themselves are outraged at what is going on in palestine/israel. they denounce the genocidal agenda at work and do not jump into this band wagon of propaganda about palestinians being terrorists. these are people that have been to israel, have family in israel. one woman has been doing peace and justice work for over 30 years… she toured with isreali refusers (israeli soldiers that refused to serve in the occupied territories). and if you want to make her angry all you have to do is equate Zionism with Judaism. at that point she her eyes will light afire and she will adamantly correct you and tell you that “Zionism is an afront to Judaism.”

    i have also worked with a gentleman, an israeli who documented the villagers of Bi’lin, where a man was killed in a peaceful protest this year.

    how odd that you bring up hamas and in the same breath question the palestinian’s ability to exist in a democracy when hamas was voted in in one of the most democratic elections witness by US representatives. probably far more democratic than our own process here. you don’t have to like hamas. but it is who the palestinians chose. however of course at that point the US refused to have anything to do with hamas and continue to refuse. yet the US will deal with a regime that will buckle under US pressure and set aside the goldstone report (oh, btw… while you are making all these issues about arabs and jews… you do know goldstone is jewish?) which details israel’s war crimes, violations of international law, and “crimes against humanity.” in fact the US, sadly, has history of abusing it’s veto seat in the UN to veto any sanctions for israel’s vaiolations of the geneva convention.

    anyway… as mark twain so aptly put it:
    “it is better to keep your mouth close and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.”

    inform yourself.

  32. missvi said on October 14th, 2009 at 6:27am #

    you’ll have to excuse my rant. it is early in the am… and i am very passionate about this issue and ignorance is nothing but an affront to me.

    what i meant to say in the beginning that i so inarticulately slaughtered… is that when i talk to people about palestine… people jump and say… well, what about guantanamo? well yeah, those or horrific. there is a sad and horrific reason that the rest of the world believes the US is the biggest threat to world peace (alongside Israel btw). i get upset and i want to tell people “i’m not talking about guantanamo. i am talking about palestine. when i talk about guantanamo we can discuss to your hearts’ content.”

    it is early and i haven’t had my coffee. sorry for all the typos above as well. 😛

  33. Obstreperous said on October 14th, 2009 at 6:41am #

    It is interesting the number of anti-Jewish postings on this site without even a smidgen of outrage over dhimmi oppression. The imbalance is startling. It really makes one wonder whether the priority is the current political fashion or a more deep-seated bigotry rearing its ugly head. There is a lot of wrong and a lot of hurt in this world. We need to approach these issues from a position of compassion and concern. This ‘taking sides’ and virulently hateful attitude guarantees the perpetuation of the very outrages that are supposedly being protested. Yes we should take a position for Right, but we too easily simplify things to black and white and take sides rather than trying to find the difficult, but just solution.

  34. missvi said on October 14th, 2009 at 7:49am #

    you can hardly get the full spectrum of someone’s political and humanitarian views in a discourse of comments online.

    i’m getting a little tired of speaking out against israeli oppresion in the palestinian and occupied territories being named anti-semitic. i mean, that is what you are saying, correct? anti-Jewish? bigotry?

    i cannot speak for anyone else of course. so perhaps i am jumping the gun and thinking you mean my comments. but you have addressed no one in particular. you also throw information out and haven’t given anyone any information save a comment to reference it. give me some info. i will welcome it and research it. i think the imbalance comes when people do not disseminate the necessary information.

    rather than coming on here and making comments about bigotry and anti-semitism… inform people. find relevant articles and books etc. and put it out there. you will be heard.

    not sure how being outraged at injustice is being virulently hateful. holding a government accountable for their perpetuation of violence and oppression is not hateful… it is necessary. i understand the US has it’s hand in the oppression of so many around the world. i do not hide from that. and i do my own part in attempt to hold my own government accountable for their actions and participation. as far as israel is concerned, i work with jewish and israeli organizations both and do what i can toward peace on all sides. heck, there are israeli businesses chomping at the bit to work with palestinian businesses and vice versa. on that alone there may be a groundwork for peace, for all… i hope.

    if i dislike anything it is ignorance and complacency.

    remaining silent and refusing to educate while allowing ignorance to allow violence to continue in any form is complicity.

  35. deceschi said on October 14th, 2009 at 9:08am #

    Instead of the obsessive bashing and continuos demonization of Israel, which serves perfectly as scapegoat to cover its own many faults and sins, it would be much more useful to look deeply in the mirror of Arab mentality and Islam. There is today and exactly now in New York a cospiracy of self-righteous countries which aims to pillory Israel for defending herself against the thousands of rockets against nearly a million of persons over a period of seven years.

    But who are the proposers of this witch hunt? States which have within their borders systematic and extended human rights violations, states which support and export terror abroad since years and decades, states which concentrate their efforts to create a climate of attack and forced pressure against Israel, in order to weaken it internationally by diverting in the same time the public attention from the fact that there are no signals on their side for serious effective progress in the peace process.

    The Goldstone report is one-sided and unilateral: while it criticizes minutely every Israeli action and mesure in hundreds of sites, it deals with Hamas terror activities in a few dozen of sites. Also the conclusions appear clearly tendentiouos and unbalanced towards the condamnation of Israel.

    This frantic activity against Israel doesn’t serve peace at all, it aims only to defeat Israel. It can not work in this way.

  36. deceschi said on October 14th, 2009 at 9:19am #

    Errata corrige: of course NOT hundreds of sites but PAGES.

  37. missvi said on October 14th, 2009 at 9:19am #

    you want to talk about unbalanced? do some research. take a look at the total of civilian casualties on either side and tell me… when a military power uses a one ton bomb in civilian populated territory to kill ONE man. when they use high tech weapons, and weapons meant to clear battle fields on UN schools full of chilren… when they target the foundations of a people already imprisoned and under seige so there is NO HOPE of recovering their cultural identity and stability… good god.

    have you read the goldstone report? it does condemn hamas rockets. quit listening to propaganda.

    you’ve got to be kidding me.

    before you flip out with any more finger pointing, and anti-semitism rhetoric … go read accounts of israeli’s and members of the jewish community condemning these actions.

    who is trying to “defeat” israel? you can’t “defeat” israel not with constant US backing by billions upon billions in loans and grants and military aid.

    all that is being asked are that violations of international law be sanctioned. that a regime be held accountable. how on earth does that not serve peace?

    chill out and let go of these knee jerk reactions and inform yourselves.

  38. deceschi said on October 14th, 2009 at 9:57am #

    Well, I think you should inform yourself as well. Read the Hamas Charta, read the figures about the rockets launch against Israel during years, look at the number of terror victims in Israel during the second intifada 2000-2004, read and listen the folly speeches of Ahmadinejad and his ministers and generals and remember his Holocaust denial, look at the daily incitement to hatred and racism in Palestinian and Arab media as well as in the left media the West like DV and others, consider the education of Palestinian and Arab youth, not to peace but to more conflict. Consider also that Palestinians are divided, Hamas doesn’t recognize Israel right to exist, Fatah isn’t neither so strong nor so trustworthy, the armed struggle is not expected to end when Israel will stopp settlement activities.

    So when will stop the armed struggle, maybe only then…..

    http://www.alhayat-j.com/details.php?opt=2&id=86758&cid=1493 ???

  39. missvi said on October 14th, 2009 at 10:26am #

    we both agree that we want peace for all in the mid-east.

    i am not saying that there isn’t violence coming the other way. i have never relieved those palestinians who resort to violence of any accountability. but they are under an occupying power. and the Geneva Convention has laws that dictate how an occupying power is to conduct themselves. and those laws have been violated. repeatedly.

    you cannot poke a stick at a caged animal and not expect it to bite. you cannot starve a people after ousting them from their homes and not expect someone to fight back.

    and if you want to bring it to an issue of judaism… even then, they have violated their own book on how to treat the foreigners living in their land.

    you ignore all the non-violent efforts of the palestinians to fight for their human rights and further peace. you ignore the fact that when hamas broke the ceasefire, those renegade rocketeers were arrested by the palestinian people.

    i haven’t ignore the jewish and israeli people that recognize the oppression and the effects of that oppression and want peace. so the israeli people are divided as well. you find these divisions everywhere. you find religious fanaticism everywhere. palestinians and muslims are not the sole bearers of religious fanaticism. so don’t use that as an argument.

    “the armed struggle is not expected to end when Israel will stop settlement activities”

    you point your finger and say “bigotry” and “anti-jewish”… but you perpetuate fear based propaganda that is one sided and unilateral against arab and islamic peoples.

    you talk in circles.

  40. b99 said on October 14th, 2009 at 11:06am #

    Sid Wright is wrong. Israel is not the Jewish state in the way that Saudi Arabia, etc. are Muslim states. Israel, unlike any other country, is not the state of its citizens – but instead is legally – that is, Israeli Supreme Court-decided, the ‘State of the Jews. ‘ That means Israel has various nationalities, a la Apartheid South Africa. In France, and every other Western country that Israel pretends to be civically akin to, one is French regardless of national or religious background. Not so Israel. Your nationality may be Jewish, Druze, etc.

  41. b99 said on October 14th, 2009 at 11:32am #

    Jews that have a pre-67 history of living in the West Bank are officially welcome to remain in Palestine. The half-million (not 300,000 as dizzy claims) or so arrivistes however have to return to their country. If they wish, they may then apply for residency and future citizenship in Palestine (Palestine, unlike Israel, being a secular democracy) as one may do in a modern state (once again, except for Israel – a race/religion based ‘democracy’).

    Not many Jews live in the Arab world because they made aliyah at Israel’s demand. Or for some countries, such as Jordan or Oman, they’ve never had a Jewish population to speak of. So it is hardly Apartheid. Jews participate fully in the Arab world subject only to the *hazing* that minority groups commonly receive in most any country in the world.

    Israel did not so much ‘take care’ of Jewish refugees (except to give them stolen Palestinian land) as exploit them – to man the frontiers, pick the veggies, and collect the garbage. It’s illuminating to see how many Falashas are used at East Jerusalem checkpoints – all out of proportion to their actual numbers. That’s how the Ashcans treated the Mizrahi. Didn’t even see them as true Jews, they were suspect as Arab-Jews. Didn’t even want to live with them. Entirely separate communities and towns. You know the pecking order in Israel. German and American Jews at the top, Russian and other Slavic Jews down the totem pole, beneath them to varying degrees are Sephardics, Yemenis, and Central Asians. Below them are the Falasha (what’s the Hebrew term for nigger? Koosh maybe?). And finally, several levels of Arabs, the Druze being the only ones not considered the equivalent of India’s ‘untouchable.’

    Arab states do not absorb all Palestinian refugees because that let’s Israel off the hook on its LEGAL obligation. Besides, Palestinians want their homes and land back – and the stolen goods too.

    You cannot, of course, refer, with any ring of truth, to Israel as a democracy. Not while its laws favor Jews and while it runs the world’s last remaining Apartheid state.

  42. b99 said on October 14th, 2009 at 11:37am #

    Obstrep –
    Dhimmi oppression??? Give me a break. Israel is the one country in the world that illegally occupies another and is the last remaining Apartheid overlord regime in the world. For this, it is paid handsomely by the US taxpayer and is given full diplomatic protection in the United Nations. Israel’s behavior and practice is why the US was attacked on 9/11.

    And you think we should be talking about Dhimmi-ism.

  43. missvi said on October 14th, 2009 at 11:49am #

    thank you b99.

  44. b99 said on October 14th, 2009 at 12:12pm #

    But Dizzy – Considering that Gaza is under a UN acknowledged Israeli occupation and siege – and has been so since 1967 – there is criticism of Gaza’s resistance only because Israel and the US insist on it. The truth is, Gazans are a besieged population living in what amounts to a slow-death camp.

    What happened was that Hamas and Israel agreed to a truce, Hamas kept to the truce- an unacceptable outcome for Israel – so Israel attacked Gaza (breaking the truce). When Hamas responded, Israel fully invaded – something in the Israel game-plan since it lost in Lebanon. Afterall, how can Israel keep the WB if it has peace partners? It’s an age-old Israeli custom – shoot the ‘moderates’, then point out the ‘extremists.’ Then re-load.

  45. b99 said on October 14th, 2009 at 12:23pm #

    Dizzy – Are you kidding about intifada terror victims? Almost as many Palestinian CHILDREN are killed by Israel as adult Israelis killed by Palestinians. And where are the children killed? In Palestine. And where are the Israelis killed? Usually in Palestine. Do you understand what that means, Dizzy? You kill their babies WHILE taking their land. You kill their babies in Palestine – and you do it with teenagers taught to hate them, raised to graduate to manhood (and what passes for womanhood) by leaving their country and killing the babies, teens, women and men of another country – while SIMULTANEOUSLY expropriating their land because these babies threaten you. To close-quote Golda Meir – *I can’t get to sleep at night knowing that Palestinian women are having more babies.*

    So just continue shooting them – business as usual.

  46. deceschi said on October 14th, 2009 at 12:44pm #

    Say that Palestinian/Arab terrorism is only “resistance” is like saying that a cat is a mouse. If you are happy with this fiction it’s your affair, but it is not the truth. Palestinian and Arab terrorism did not begin with the occupation of the West Bank, actually it is a long strip of violent acts indeed from the birth of Israel, against military AND civilian targets.
    If you mean that resistance is aimed to “liberate all Palestine”, as stated in the Fatah Charter and as exposed in the photo above and in innumerable other video and written documents as well, then yes, you are right, and I agree with you.
    If you are against Zionism, so you should know that you are against Israel as a whole, since Israel was born tanks to the Zionist movement which represents the desire and the struggle of the Jews to (re)build their nation in their ancestral homeland. So simple to understand, so difficult to accept.

    In principle, I’m for the withdrawal of Israel from the West Bank, and I’m for a demilitarized, viable and responsible Palestinian state, build on the basis of a true lasting peace with Israel. I want to believe that a Arab state of Palestine will be able to live side by side with the Jewish state of Israel. Where there is the will there is also the road. But no short cuts à la Bully99, please.

    By the way: maybe I’m talking in circles, but maybe because your thinking is square.

  47. missvi said on October 14th, 2009 at 2:16pm #

    hahahaha. you’re funny. so let me be a square. i’m not a hypocrite nor am i deluded.

    if you know anything about the birth of political Zionism you’d know that the “state of israel” was chosen between two lands (one of them a vacant land in Argentina). they sent rabbis to palestine at which the rabbis returned a message saying, “the bride is beautiful but she is married to another man.” she was INHABITED. and thus followed the enlisting of whatever major power of the day to enter and possess palestine… which actually started with the enlisting of the leaders of other Arab nations. rather than try to co-exist with the people of palestine. you said, “actually it is a long strip of violent acts indeed from the birth of Israel” well, the “state of israel” was born from rape. if someone marched into your home city with tanks and soldiers and said, hey, this is mine. wouldn’t you fight? your arguments are so lacking reality.

    “If you are against Zionism, so you should know that you are against Israel as a whole, since Israel was born tanks to the Zionist movement which represents the desire and the struggle of the Jews to (re)build their nation in their ancestral homeland. So simple to understand, so difficult to accept.

    In principle, I’m for the withdrawal of Israel from the West Bank, and I’m for a demilitarized, viable and responsible Palestinian state, build on the basis of a true lasting peace with Israel. I want to believe that a Arab state of Palestine will be able to live side by side with the Jewish state of Israel. Where there is the will there is also the road. ”

    gaza is still under seige… children being shot collecting figs. http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1279&CategoryId=1
    children are being imprisoned and tortured. over 300 children imprisoned in Sept. CHILDREN. when you imprison someone’s child, when you shoot them as they gather food… what do you expect? when any semblance of life, normalcy is disrupted day after day, when people are removed from their only source of income. when they are kept from medical aid. when internationals have to ride with pregnant women through checkpoints so they can get reasonable healthcare.

    Palestinian refugees make up one quarter of the world’s refugees. And those are only the ones who utilize the UN refugee services.

    I need to stop here.

    I only hope, Dizzy, that you can open your eyes some day.

    thank you, b99 for all your information and knowledge.

  48. deceschi said on October 14th, 2009 at 3:37pm #

    b99: “Are you kidding about intifada terror victims? … And where are the Israelis killed? Usually in Palestine.”
    Of course, Jerusalem is Palestine, Tel aviv is Palestine, Haifa is Palestine, Netanya is Palestine. I always supposed that you have your own agenda….

    missty (funny hee?!): Is b99 your gray eminency that you need to thank him every time? Not really self-confident. A bit like the Arab states which feel confortable only in the large circle of their majority.

    Your sources are either anti-Zionist (that means anti-Israel) or Arab sources, not neutral nor objective. And as your sources, you (and your friends) have your agenda. So ask yourself if you are for peace or for something else.

    Indeed, squaring the circle does not seem to be possible.

  49. missvi cubed said on October 14th, 2009 at 4:18pm #

    yes… you amused with your whole square thing.

    i know what i am about and what i have been working toward. there is no need to prove it to you or anyone.

    i will always recognize people who bring facts and have obviously conducted well rounded research of any subject.

    enjoy yourself and your twisted compass.

  50. missvi said on October 14th, 2009 at 4:25pm #

    i suppose israeli refusers and those citizens of israel working hard day after day to find peace… who reject the zionist agenda are anti-israel?

    please