The Madoff Victims: Schadenfreude, Not Anti-Semitism

As the news of Bernard Madoff’s colossal fraud focused on America’s most “important” Jewish tycoons and moguls, it was only a matter of hours before the story was spun around their victimhood with the usual cudgels of “anti-Semitism” and the Holocaust. In Israel, columnist Bradley Burston spun the story best by declaring, “The anti-Semite’s new Santa is Bernard Madoff. … The Aryan Nation at its most delusional couldn’t have come up with anything to rival this.”

As the list of Madoff’s “victims” grows, their common characteristic is not philanthropy, but rather political Zionism. Virtually all have worked to build a Jewish state with little regard, and often downright hatred, for the non-Jewish population living there.

The money from this type of mogul or “ganzer macher” has been used to dehumanize and depopulate non-Jews in Palestine for over 120 years. But in spite of creating a strong Israeli economy based on guns, diamonds, and security services and in spite of walling Arabs in Bantustans in the West Bank and in the KZ lager known as Gaza, they have failed. Non-Jews outnumber Jews within the borders controlled by Israel, which makes a mockery out of calling it a Jewish state.

Schadenfreude is defined to be largely unanticipated delight in the suffering of another which is recognized as well deserved. Political Zionism deserves scorn and derision; it is racist and antithetical to what Americans profess to hold self-evident: that all men and women are created equal and that we should share equal rights of citizenship. When rich Zionists lose a piece of their portfolios, especially to the guile of one of their own, it is a delight.

The press was first to report Madoff’s pilfering of the Robert Lappin “Charitable” Foundation, an organization whose “mission is helping to keep our children Jewish, thus reversing the trend of assimilation and intermarriage.” If the reader has trouble seeing the blatant racism here, substitute “White” for “Jewish” and imagine it was the stated goal of the David Duke Charitable Foundation.

While Mr. Burston found Madoff’s bilking of “fellow Jews, even Holocaust survivors” particularly outrageous, there are those who find divine justice in seeing one fraud defraud another. Elie Wiesel and his Foundation for Humanity would certainly qualify. Here is a man who has made millions peddling his narrative on the deaths of Jews in World War II; his novel, Night, is mandatory reading for most high school students; questioning it in any way invites charges of “anti-Semitism” and “Holocaust Denial.” He has been feted by Presidents and holds dozens of honorary degrees. If there were a CEO of the Holocaust Industry (a term coined by Norman Finkelstein), surely it would be The Great Weasel.

Wiesel’s Foundation claims to combat indifference, intolerance and injustice through programs to promote acceptance, understanding, and equality. Yet he remains persistently indifferent to over 60 years of suffering of the Palestinian people and treats them with silence or as the “untermenschen” his people once were under the Nazis. Wiesel boasts of having worked for the terrorists of the Jewish Irgun, not as a fighter but as a journalist, and he steadfastly refuses to apologize for the massacre by his employer at Deir Yassin. As a devout Zionist there is no way he can endorse one state in Israel/Palestine with equal rights of citizenship for all.

Other victims of Madoff’s deception, like the Shapiro Family Foundation and the Chais Family Foundation, are undoubtedly genuinely philanthropic and well-meaning. But insofar as their gifts support Jews-only education, medicine, and social programs in Israel, they deserve the derision that would be accorded to Aryan philanthropists or others who support a racist state, one whose very laws favor one chosen group over all the rest.

Madoff’s clients were not just generous Jews; they were Jews who directly or indirectly support the racism inherent in political Zionism. They support the assimilation of Ethiopian Jews (a noble enterprise), but reject the assimilation of Israeli Arabs and the Palestinians caged in West Bank and Gaza. They support “birthright” trips for young American Jews in hopes they will settle in Israel, but not the “Birthright Unplugged” educational trips of Hannah Mermelstein or the work of Jeff Halper’s Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions.

Madoff’s wealthy victims build ever more Holocaust memorials with the message “Never Forget” but ignore the current siege and starvation of Gaza to which they contribute financially and by their silence. Like The Great Weasel, they simply dismiss the analogy as “unworthy.” Where is the Spielberg movie of the Gaza ghetto that isolates three times as many people as the Warsaw Ghetto and in worse conditions? Where is the support for Righteous Jews like former Princeton University law professor Richard Falk, who calls what Israel is doing to the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza “a crime against humanity?” Falk has condemned the collective punishment of the Palestinians in Gaza as “a flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law as laid down in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.”

Cast in terms of their impact on the struggle for Palestinian human rights, it is difficult not to plead guilty to schadenfreude caused by the greed of Bernard Madoff. In fact, my only regret is that Edgar Bronfman and Alan Dershowitz were not among his preferred clients.

Daniel McGowan is a Professor Emeritus at Hobart and William Smith Colleges. Because of admonishment by the administration, it is hereby stated that the above remarks are solely those of the author. Hobart and William Smith Colleges neither condone nor condemn these opinions. Furthermore, the author has been instructed to use his personal email address of mcgowandaniel@yahoo.com and not his college email at mcgowan@hws.edu for those wishing to contact him with comments or criticisms. Read other articles by Daniel, or visit Daniel's website.

201 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. bozh said on December 22nd, 2008 at 10:26am #

    nature works in mysterious ways. judeochristian-zionistic society for evil doing did not take nature into consideration.
    but nature has not yet finished its labors. much, much more is awaiting these mad people.
    thnx

  2. Deadbeat said on December 22nd, 2008 at 10:48am #

    As Petras remarked in his article, Madoff did more to effectively “confront” Zionism much more than than anything seen coming from the Left. In fact the Left has spent an awful amount of energy trying to obscure the fact that Zionism is a racist ideology that deserves to be directly confront like White Supremacy. Zionism like White Supremacy is a racist ideology and should be confronted in much the same way.

    Unfortunately you have many advocates on the Left using terminology that is meant to obscure Zionism. Terms such as “empire” and “imperialism” as a way to cloud this issue. The best way for the Left to confront Zionism is not only to directly confront what is going on in Israel and the Middle East but to confront Zionism as it exist in the United States and to admit that Zionism is hugely influential upon the U.S. political economy and culture. The author is correct with his observations … Where is the Spielberg movie of the Gaza ghetto that isolates three times as many people as the Warsaw Ghetto and in worse conditions?. The director had no qualms negatively depicting African American males with his movie The Color Purple.

  3. Petronius said on December 22nd, 2008 at 10:48am #

    I sure dont know if nature will take care of these people, but for sure other people will. and they are not mad, just bad. one injustice does not condone another injustice, even if their horrors are not equal. it appears by the way that the whole madoff clan was involved in the scams. bad societies breed bad people…

  4. The Angry Peasant said on December 22nd, 2008 at 11:38am #

    Every once in a while, though not nearly often enough, the corrupt get what’s coming to them. The whole world has been indoctrinated to feel that the Holocaust was the most heinous and horrible crime ever perpetrated on a race of people. All the horrific “ethnic cleansing” that has befell millions of Africans and Muslims doesn’t seem to make the papers as much; doesn’t pop up on the History Channel too often. Why is that? I’m not a racist, but you have to step back once in a while and look at things as they are. Jewish people have shown themselves to be, on the whole, clannish, greedy, unethical people. They talk about being discriminated against out of one side of their mouth, and promote prejudice toward non-Semitic peoples out the other. And just look at their stellar performance conducting themselves in their own state of Israel. I don’t think you can find a more textbook definition of racism than what they have done and keep doing to the Palestinians. Yet everywhere you go you hear Anti-Semite-this and Anti-Semite-that. You can’t expect to conduct yourself as a people in a reprehensible manner and not expect some backlash. Not that responding to racism with racism is right, but try to understand others’ grievances with you and conduct yourself in a more respectable manner.

  5. John Hatch said on December 22nd, 2008 at 1:06pm #

    The mad Zionists have played the anti-semitic wild card so often that it’s all worn out. I couldn’t care less to be called anti-semitic. Sticks and stones. I’m not anti-semitic, but I am anti-Zionist in my bones. I despise what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, and nothing could make me say otherwise. Holocausts are bad things, no matter to whom they happen.

  6. bozh said on December 22nd, 2008 at 1:16pm #

    ‘mad’ peasant,
    i am fiercely antisemitic and proshemitic. i say that because there r no such people as semites. the word “semite” derives from word “shemite” ; a decendant of shem.
    hebrees have always hated ismael or more accurately, ishmael and his descendant shem.
    it was common practise in europe to avoid the use of “sh” sound in names like shlomo, shabath, shmuel, jeshua, shem, and substitute it w. “s”.
    but these ‘semites’ have fooled awful lot of people. but we don’t have to be ‘fools’ any lngr! thnx

  7. bozh said on December 22nd, 2008 at 1:27pm #

    john hatch,
    i agree. zionism is just theft of land; a theft of land by judeo-christian soyuz. i also agree that the word “imperialism” is more accurate/adequate than zionism.
    for one thing ancestors of christians and almost all ashkenazic folk have never ever lived in canaan nor palestine.
    so, what so zionistic ab these idiots? i called them idiots because they may cause a Nwar. thnx

  8. Petronius said on December 22nd, 2008 at 9:19pm #

    Americans are knuckleheads. First they let themselves be scared into two useless wars costing billions upon billions, then scared by a recession into allowing this lying government give away their public funds to Wall street. When will the suckers wake up ???? Merry X-mas y’all !

  9. Ari said on December 23rd, 2008 at 8:12am #

    Let’s see, if there is a ghetto in Gaza, I think it takes fences on all sides to make a ghetto, right. That would mean that there should be a fence keeping the Palestinians from entering Egypt. Well look here:
    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/28/gaza.border/index.html

    Yes, it’s not only the cruel Israelis who are keeping the Palestinians in their ghetto, it’s their fellow Muslims in Egypt as well. The Palestinians had to blast a hole in that fence to get into Egypt.

    And why should Spielberg make a movie about the Gaza ghetto? Criticizing Spielberg for not making a movie about the Gaza ghetto is like asking Spike Lee to make a movie sympathetic to the KKK. Make your own friggin’ movie if that’s what you want.

    Finally, Petronius wrote: “I sure dont (sic) know if nature will take care of these people, but for sure other people will. and they are not mad, just bad.” Well thanks, Petronius, for this blatant display of anti-semitism. “These people” wonder how you got to be the way you are (“bad societies breed bad people”); was it society or your parents who taught you to hate?

  10. Ben said on December 23rd, 2008 at 9:46am #

    Jew from all over the world have helped their fellow Jews to build a democratic, vibrant, technological, industrious, and prosperous country. Millions of prosperous oil rich Arab countries have not provided the same humanitarian assistance to their related Palestinean peoples except to assist in their support of their terrorism. The Gaza ghetto is of thier own making since the Palestineans destroyed that which the Israelis had built when the strip was given back to them. It seems that too many people like to hate those who are so much more succesful then themselves.

  11. Artfldgr said on December 23rd, 2008 at 10:03am #

    buy a dictionary, your social justice version of shadenfreude is wrong. period.

    Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.
    “malicious joy in the misfortunes of others”

    basically describing a passive aggresive sadist…

    epikhairekakia if your really learned..

    hard to accept your point if your word meanings are so far off that one cant decide what you actually mean unless one is as vacuous.

  12. bozh said on December 23rd, 2008 at 11:31am #

    ari, i agree. ‘jews’ r not bad people; merely land thieves. and theft of land can be defended only by violence.
    it happened in chechnya, baluchistan, kosovo, tibet, turkmenistan, assam, waziristan, kashmir.
    and no peace yet in these troubled lands. there is only one law. the law of nature; revenge is mine says it!
    israel will never enjoy peace. it is destined for ashcan or may come to its senses and establish one state; that of palestine.
    thnx

  13. Mannstein said on December 23rd, 2008 at 11:52am #

    Actually, I would dearly love to recognize the existence of Israel if only the Jews would finally tell us where its borders are, what with new settlements sprouting up like mushrooms every day populated by those nice folks next door from New Jersey and New York.

  14. LanceThruster said on December 23rd, 2008 at 1:02pm #

    Got banned from the Jewish Journal God Blog for linking this story and defending Daniel McGowan’s piece “What Does
    “Holocaust Denial” Really Mean?”

    Apparently for their moderator, discussing Holocaust denial is the same thing as Holocaust denial. The J-Journal seems to be allergic to the truth or anything contradicting their official narrative.

  15. Petronius said on December 23rd, 2008 at 1:15pm #

    wow, thanks ari, you did exactly what one could expect from people who see through a glass darkly, calling me names. frankly it is the first time it happened to me and I feel rather proud of it, because it proves that I made a sore point. I only referred to the madoff family not even to isrealis….but since you deliberately misunderstood me because of your predilection, so here is my take on israel. if it was only a squatter nation like bozh writes, then I would never even have made a bad people comment about them, but unfortunately there is much more, from killings to ethnic cleansing of palestinians. you go into an immediate attack mode probably because you know fully well that there is something not right. but coming back at me with the old standby of anti-semitism is exactly what prof. finkelstein suffered under, so I at least am in good c0mpany. and the idealistic blindness of ben is equally misplaced. my comment was about the madoff clan and the bad society is the united states where people like them can get away with their venality. mazeltoff !

  16. LanceThruster said on December 23rd, 2008 at 2:11pm #

    Oh and btw, those comments that replied to those making the assertions against Dissident Voice and Daniel McGowan were scrubbed so as not to provide any actual evidence that their points were easily addressed. I have found this practice rampant from overtly pro-Zionist sites to those pretending no Israeli bias (though they are as heavy-handed as the pro-Z sites).

  17. Petronius said on December 23rd, 2008 at 2:15pm #

    The tragedy is that the for millennia persecuted European jews wanted to return to the land of their origin as they saw it, where again for millennia the Jewish population had lived in peace with their arab neighbors. The sins of Europe were revenged on an innocent mostly peasant people, who were expelled forcibly and ruthlessly to make way for the European exodus. The colonial powers approved as they saw this new state as a linchpin for control of the oil rich territories. The simile with the conquest of America by Europeans is not by happenstance and the blinkered justifications are exactly the same. This is not a good situation and the beleaguered on both sides are by now pre-conditioned to any reasonable solution. It cannot but end in a bad way and if Israelis claim political and civilized superiority, then they should be the nation to take the first steps towards a solution, not persist in more adversarial policies as if they deal with wild unreasonable beasts. But name calling is such an adolescent way to try to get the upper hand while one is losing a moral stand … and a superior attitude is even more immature by annotating my spelling of dont for don’t with (sic)… :-) Gary

  18. bozh said on December 23rd, 2008 at 2:19pm #

    petronius,
    i said settlers settling palestine r not bad. the reason i said that is that a label doesn’t elucidate as sit’n.
    i did call them “thieves”. i shld have said that they have been stealing and steal now other people’s land.
    i have never said they r only squaters. nor have i ever used the word “squaters”.
    instead i say that the ‘settlers’ have thru war crimes and warfare and forceful oster of pals obtained palestine ilegally and immorally.
    because the league of natons an extremely unjust collection of evil empires gave the land away to euros.
    i do not call israelis a nation. genetically these people r much more diverse than any other folk.
    please cite only what was said; don’t use ur own words; paraphrasing is ok if intended meaning is understood.thnx

  19. Petronius said on December 23rd, 2008 at 2:36pm #

    bozh, I do not label the settlers as thieves, but they are squatters, though claiming sometimes to have bought the land. it was plain
    conquest, much like old cortez going into the americas to bring
    god’s word to heathens. that the heathens were eliminated
    showed god’s wrath that they did not want to be converted…. it is win
    or lose, you lose…the old power game men have played since the division of labor thousands upon thousands years ago, leaving women and children as chattel. israel is a nation with laws and boundaries, even though these are quite elastic. it has a social contract which is geared to ethnic jews, who are bound if not by religion, then by a common memory. that is something that cannot be discarded and it has been their only guard against european persecutions. that also explains the very emotional response against anything seen as a threat to them or what they feel is their mother country. it make the whole situation in the middle east very hard to solve unless israel has the courage to change tactics, not an easy thing to do. gary

  20. Ben said on December 23rd, 2008 at 3:29pm #

    If I remember my history correctly I was informed that the Pilgrims & later settlers STOLE this land from the American Indians. Pretty much wiped out most tribes except for Cuter’s screw up. So let’s stop talking about stealing lands in Israel.

  21. kahar said on December 23rd, 2008 at 3:36pm #

    Petronius, what a sweet view you have of Israel. In your last comment, it sounded like your wrestling partner, Delusion, is winning.

  22. LanceThruster said on December 23rd, 2008 at 4:04pm #

    “America – the best country anybody ever stole.”

    That doesn’t seem much of a compelling argument for Israelis to do the same in regards to Palestine.
    ~

  23. Petronius said on December 23rd, 2008 at 6:13pm #

    PS squatters occupy space without a contract with the legal owners….kahar, read my comment carefully. I have no delusions
    but the reality of the sykes-picot pact between the imperial powers france and england of 1917 ‘legally’ divided palestine and created
    the potential for jews to immigrate there en masse. the indigenous population was of course not asked for their consent. I compared that power play to the subjugation of women and children, where muscle counts though justice suffers. thus the european establishments could keep an imperial foothold by creating a space for jews fleeing europe and a grateful satellite in that region of breaking up colonies. one cannot lay blame where so many are guilty and demand nobility from the oppressed whether they be jews from europe or arabs in palestine, that is entirely unrealistic. america entered late in the game but took over the colonial policies of utterly decredited europe but with none of its skill to rule other cultures. it could have provided a solution in 1948 by preventing an ethnically exclusive state, giving equal rights to jews and palestinians. but it chose to cynically protect extremist elements, like they did allover the world (the shah, somoza, pappa doc, marcos papadopolous etc etc), because what the elites here fear most are populist governments. it is hard in our well protected american environment to imagine the suffering of others, even of indigenous american indians now, let alone jews in europe, arabs in palestine, afghanistan and iraq and each of them fights for what they know are their rights, human rights which have been and are constantly violated because of macchiavellian policies of the powerful. as soon as we can refuse without too much bloodshed to be forced into playing their game, much of the cruelty and injustices will disappear. gary

  24. Doug said on December 23rd, 2008 at 6:40pm #

    The worst thing about the Holocaust(tm) is that it never happened.

  25. Clasiical Europa said on December 23rd, 2008 at 10:41pm #

    I became aware of the vicious power of Zionism,andmilitant Judiasim when my favorite hisory books or documentaries where blacklisted by the infamous private Cheeka:The ADL.Even military models of the Axis powers were banned from the shelves!Than came agitation for Gulf War 1 and 2 by Jewish commentators.Hiding AIPAC politcal activites(It was referred to as simply a ‘powerful group by CBS,when Cheny spoke there last year by CBS)The Zionist infiltration of Christianity(Fundementilists)Demanding jail time for controversial historians like David Irving.The defeat and marginilaztion of any poltical figure wh opppses across the spectrum from Ralph Nader and Jesse Jackson to Pat Buchanan.This is a defacto theological-economic dictatorship by a tiny,racist minority which collects together financially to control our lives!Wars without end,no compromise,unconditional surrender,Wall Street meltdown,bail out,media control,Depression looming.But the culprits hide behind the publics clucking gullibility.”Dear me anti-semitism.”We can’t criticize the ‘chosen people”and such clices’.Unless there power be exposed our planet is on the brink of what there theology always hoped for;Armegeddon!

  26. The Angry Peasant said on December 23rd, 2008 at 11:30pm #

    Israel is a terrorist state, and one of the worst on Earth. Second only to you-know-who. And Doug, don’t start that “Holocaust never happened” crap. I don’t think all those old newsreels were just featuring actors who got into their roles by starving themselves into walking skeletons. Holocausts happen all the time. Hardly a nation on Earth hasn’t experienced at least one genocidal massacre. Not many Native Americans hanging around, are there? Because they’re over 3/4 extinct. Did we imagine that, too?
    The holocaust happened, it just has gotten far too much press and has given the Israelis, and realistically, Jewish people in America, a wonderful excuse to be evil. No matter how much suffering they perpetrate on others, they’ll always be worse off because of the Holocaust. That’s why they won’t let it die. Even after nearly 70 years, you still hear about it often. This is a piece of history they won’t let us bury already, because it suits a purpose. At least on a sub-conscious level, anyway.

  27. kahar said on December 24th, 2008 at 5:52am #

    Well Petronius I was referring to to all your comment not just the ridiculous squatter part, or your justification for seizing land by conquest (which century are you living in?), or your nonsense about israel having laws and boundaries, or your “social contract which is geared to ethnic jews” (ethnic jew?) so when israel continues Hitler’s eugenics program and irradiates some 100, 000 sephardic jewish children in israel killing or severly disabling them, I guess that’s your “boundaries”, with israel there are no boundaries, or this “who are bound.. by a common memory. that is something that cannot be discarded and it has been their only guard against european persecutions”, well, israel has far outdone Hitler on persecutions (and I’m not just talking Palestine).

  28. Petronius said on December 24th, 2008 at 7:20am #

    where did I justify conquest of land ? and yes non-jewish people remain second class citizens in israel by law. I thought I gave a definition of squatters to be unlwaful occupiers…and israel does claim to be a well defined land with a democratic constitution. the eugenics program is a new one to me and probably purely spurious. having lived through hitler time I can assure you that aside from vietnam cruelties and iraq crimes by the western nations, nothing still approaches the atrocities of nazis.

  29. bozh said on December 24th, 2008 at 8:34am #

    petronius,
    u say “jews fleeing europe”. why fleeing? when they were quite safe in all lands after defeat of germany.
    was that a slip or were u trying to pull one over us? and the people who least desired for ‘Jews’ to flee were arabs.
    but all christians egged on ‘jews’ to ‘flee'; probably on flying persian carpets or on foot so that europeans wldn’t notice the flight.
    u say “arabs in palestine”.
    descendants of canaanitic people r mostly shemitic; possibly w. little or no arab genes.
    they are called “arabs” by landstealers and war criminals so as to deceive and in order to ‘justify’ their crimes.
    the judaic voelken, commonly called “jews” , did not speak hebraic but a german dialect mixed w. slavic words as well.
    none? had hebraic names. they took up hebraic names much later and solely in order to deceive.
    actually, they look dwn on mizrahic and sephardic folks and not to mention ethiopeans.
    thnx

  30. Petronius said on December 24th, 2008 at 8:54am #

    I am not trying to pull anything, but the rightful anger of amerrrikkuns is sometimes a bit chafing to a european expatriate who has lived years in the arab middle east and iran, went to school with palestinians, even visited israel. it is always the sideliners who look on a fire who are the most outspoken on how to extinguish it and after the hitler experience I would venture to state that many jews were quite tired of europe and its problems at the war’s end. and do not tell a palestinian that he/she is not an arab, their pride tells them differently despite all the theories you may propose about their ancestry. the jews thought they were assimilated in pre-war germany, what a delusion ! and they did not learn from dreyfuss in france nor from the murder of the anarchist luxemburg. assimilation for jews has been more successful in america and like in germany they assumed christian names in order to avoid discrimination. so what ? I am not an apologist for israel nor of
    american foreign policies, the rot is right here and as an anarchist I would rather do away with all nation states. the genocide in gaza and the west bank is abominable, but nothing is ever solved by fanatics.
    reality is working hard towards human solutions, understanding your adversary ( a lesson never learned in washington) and learning about his/her weaknesses, but as long as you are part of the problem you do not advance human rights one bit. gary

  31. bozh said on December 24th, 2008 at 9:14am #

    paradoxically, persecuting and persecuted ‘jews’ did not flee europe in btwn www1 and www2 .
    as is well known among historians, ottoman empire welcomed immigration into its domain,
    in 1492 they were allowed to settle in sarajevo. islam did not persecute judaists.
    but christians did. obnubilators or most commentators will assert that it had been euros who persecuted ‘jews’. natch, bosnia is in europe. there was jews also in other regions of europe that did not, as far as i know, chase ‘jews’.
    but christian persecution of christians and voelken of judaic faith goes unnoticed let alone stressed over and over as does the shoah
    according to at least one historian, tho pro-judaist, ‘jews’ shunned palestine mostly because, as it is also now, an impoverished land.
    the best arable lands were in hands of ‘arabs’. oh, how ‘jews’ love the word “arab”!
    most of euros who did come to palestine never stayed too long; life there was unbearable.
    w. christian and ‘jewish’ help, palestine became very bearable.
    curioso is that also most communists approbated euro’s warfare for palestine.
    it was thought that arabs r asocialist and the ‘jews’ communist.
    however, it turned out that the people they thought as socialist/communist r just like nazis.
    true, holocaust cannot be equated w. all nazis have done.
    but in some aspects ‘jews’ have ‘outclassed’ their teachers. thnx

  32. Petronius said on December 24th, 2008 at 9:15am #

    and for that let’s talk about collective guilt, which chomsky denies in correspondence. the germans had to deal with that twice in the twentieth century, forced into it by the victorious west
    first by the self righteous president wilson, then by president truman, he of the atom bombs on japan. the power elite is supported here by common consent, manufactured as per chomsky. the american public could have just by force of their numbers prevented a host of very cruel policies committed by their governments. did they do it ? no and moreover they elected by almost general acclaim now a man who promises to throw more violence against afghanistan and possibly iran.
    let us be clear, violence is built into the theft of surplus value on which this american capitalist system is built and it has spread into people’s private lives (domestic, racist and sexist). I admit that being violated against creates violators and only when people are made to realize how deeply they have been violated, can they recover their humanity. as long as that is being prevented we will slowly sink into a kind of robotism of the 1920’s german film metropolis. It is time to wake up, folks !

  33. Petronius said on December 24th, 2008 at 9:29am #

    yes bozh you make good historical points, but as I wrote the jews thought they were assimilated enough in germany so that the upstart hitler could not touch them (the force of money remember ?). my own grandmother’s family, bankers in hamburg certainly thought so, the poor deluded sops…they all wound up as soap, while the nazis usurped their assets. and you are correct, non-arable palestine (which in fact was always the most fruitful and prosperous of arab lands) was not attractive to the ‘settlers’. the irrigation of the desert touted by israel is a fiction as was the planting of trees in the holy land. and indeed early ‘settlers’ (oh, how I detest that word) before ww2 were communist in thinking, reason how the kibbutzes were set up, but these were soon outnumbered by an influx of peoples indifferent to the peoples they replaced by conquest. communism was never a force in the arab middle east (and the term has as you correctly write been debased), because islam does not accord (like is the case with the american indians) with the materialist dialectic. I mostly agree with your opinions, but feel that I should critique some of them. all best, gary

  34. Petronius said on December 24th, 2008 at 9:34am #

    (and the term has as you correctly write been debased)

    I meant to write: (and the term arab has been debased)

  35. bozh said on December 24th, 2008 at 9:45am #

    petronius, why then have u not correcetd the word “flee” w. the word “left”?
    why do ‘jews’ “flee” mesopotamia, europe, egypt, asian lands and “arabs” “leave” their homes?

    u say, “nothing ever is solved by fanatics”. in add’n of being vague/vacuous it may or may not imply that i am a fanatic along w. bush, my wife; some ‘jews’, some arabs, some pals, all? christians/judiasts. etcetc.
    so, what is it?
    or r u implying that ‘Jewish’ crimes equal pals crimes. but low and behold, whenone enumerates these cimes one comes up w. following:
    isr holds some 8-10 td captives in its jails’ pals hold just one, a soldier.
    theft of land, 1oo% to zero in favor of robbers.
    expulsion of 700td pals, no israeli expeled.
    many pals homes, orchards, destroyed; none of the israel’s.
    killings/ maimings vastly in favor of isr.
    free movement also is vastly in favor of the israelis +more.
    so please tell us who these fanatics r and more importantly what is it that they do that occludes an agreement? thnx

  36. de teodoru said on December 24th, 2008 at 10:23am #

    My response to the following Huffington Post column: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joel-schwartzberg/bernie-madoff-lightning-r_b_153057.html Bernie, your point is well taken– especially by this goyim that was welcomed to America by Jews, taken in and made as one of. But then, there is an issue of trying to have it both ways. There is an insolent assumption of dealing with “dumb goyim” in a lot of the Zionist propaganda– propaganda that is not done on Israel’s behalf but rather to use Israel to feel like “mensch.” And too, there is the bragging in the FORWARD that “our” Jewish Congressional delegation has collected for “our interests” $175 million, I believe, out from the TARP Bill. Why make an issue of it? Is it to say: we got our due from them “dumb goyim”? The neocons sending the sons of those “dumb goyim” to kill “Islamo-facists” and then the Israeli claim that it can attack Iran without consulting the American placenta of dollars that keeps it alive didn’t help. Throwing the hysterical charge by that fat little evil man Foxman of “ANTI-SEMITE” at anyone questioning him also doesn’t help. At a Jerusalem Conference of “World Jewery” he appologized that he did not do enough to fight anti-Zionism because he was too busy fighting “assimilation– “anit-defamation” league?

    This is from a friend who will do all he can to save the people who are the cornerstone of Western Culture. But we can’t save “Jews” from self-destruction through trying to be a part of and separate from at the same time.
    ——————————————————————————–

  37. Petronius said on December 24th, 2008 at 10:25am #

    okay, yes I stand corrected. they left….no of course I did not mean you or everybody else being fanatical, but there are fanatics on both sides of the israel/palestine issues. I am particularly disturbed by the terms used in comments on dissident voice, such as hitler, fascist, anti-semite etc. even used against other writers on dv. that to me denotes political immaturity and it serves no goal as far as I can see, but strengthens the dissent so encouraged by the establishment. I mentioned somewhere on these comments that solidarity is not a hollow word and I truly believe in that. of course I do not equal israeli crimes with palestinian crimes (if I even know of many), just as little as I equal american crimes with iraqi ones. but violence visited on the powerless evokes violence.
    fanaticism on the israeli side precludes any advancement indeed and it cannot be broken by a violent reaction, but on the contrary that would strengthen it. only popular uprisings in those countries that support israel could weaken its regime and its policies. we have seen that palestianian resistance has not led to any amelioration of their fate.
    they need support, that is all I wanted to express, and an obama who
    stupidly (a harvard degree does not guarantee intelligence apparently) stated that jerusalem should be the capital of israel, should be opposed strongly while his lieutenant rahm must be shown up for what he is (just look at his face to speak of body language !) so that he will be discredited and fired. there are many ways to oppose the american regime and to help those oppressed by our foreign policies. the clean-up must start at home.

  38. bozh said on December 24th, 2008 at 11:09am #

    yes, petronius,
    that’s why urge iraqis, pals, and afghans not to resist violently their respective occupations.
    passive resitance w. dogged education offers a better chance for nato, isr, and US withdrawls.
    and especially since i see that europe is now questioning nato role and may go for peace everywhere.
    in any case, resistance by pals is futile; just what most israelis, christians and judaists want; concluding this as per what is going on.
    thnx

  39. Petronius said on December 25th, 2008 at 7:16am #

    finally bozh, I was in paris in ’68 during the student rebellion and it was the only populist uprising in the west with some effect, though betrayed by the communists. I do not believe in martyrdom for the common good and palestinian martyrs are not a solution, though I feel the depth of despair and need it comes from. power is not challenged by violence, it can retaliate a thousand fold or turn factions against each other (iraq). power is challenged by the public in solidarity withholding consent, which need not be pacifist at all (even gandhi stated he would accept non-pacifist methods if necessary). obama was elected by manufactured consent, let us see if we can counter him and the establishment for a change of direction in policies and finally getting rid of the executive with a truly representative legislative. the solution lies here in the belly of the machine. happy holidays.

  40. Tree said on December 25th, 2008 at 8:31am #

    Petronius, your last comment here is one of the most intelligent things I’ve read in a long time and it makes a lot of sense to me. I wish more thought this way.

  41. Don Hawkins said on December 25th, 2008 at 8:55am #

    http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2008/12/23/the-paranoia-squad/

    It’s starting to look a lot like a police State in England everywhere they go the cameras are keeping a watchful eye on everything they do and the USA is not far behind. Anyway off to the super store today to see if I can get a flat screen TV at a discount like buy one get one free. Joy to the World the discounts are crazzzzzzy in the greatest nation on Earth. The printing presses are running on overtime at the Treasury so get it while you can. The banks will not lend, darn. Well what the heck are they going to do with that new money how about buy stuff at a discount in a little while. Yes the new Gods of money. Tax payer money to the banks to lend to tax payers at interest and in many cases compound interest where one and one is never two but we will get it back with interest. Sounds simple. How about a new way of thinking just a thought.

  42. kahar said on December 25th, 2008 at 9:34am #

    Madoff Victims? Colossal fraud? Hmmm..

    The following from an excellent article by Muhammed Rafeeq:

    “I have acted as a professional consultant to major EC and US financial institutions on corporate and institutional credit risk and the idea that anyone in HSBC or Santander could authorise large investment without the internal checks and controls being employed is almost impossible. To try and believe that EVERY institution that invested in Madoff circumvented their internal control procedures IS impossible.

    Why is this important? Simple. If someone approaches the HSBC credit risk team, for instance, with a view to making a loan or investing a sum as large as £600m to what is ultimately a single institution (therefore a single counterparty credit exposure) a significant number hoops would have to be jumped through. Firstly there is the credit officer competence limit, which is the maximum amount that a single credit officer may be allowed to authorise. More than his/her limit must be referred up the credit approval food chain. In an institution like HSBC or Santander etc, £600bn or US$1bn will have been referred to the very top of the food chain, the banks’ credit committees at the board level. This is an enormous sum and no lacky is going to be able to approve this by themselves, ever.

    … Any company that I have ever worked for would have known internally that such business was being done, because they are all involved…. It is not possible to hide things like this internally for very long, months at the most; 20+ years, NEVER.

    So why plead guilty? The answer is simple. Look on the net and you will see that because this case is being labelled a fraud, it would appear that investors are going to be able to claim their investment back under the US government’s financial fraud protection scheme. A judge has already given his approval in principle for compensation, without any evidence having been presented and financial fraud being demonstrated in a court of law. And it would appear that there will never be such a demonstration in a court of law. Why? It would appear that all the funds financial records are mostly “missing” (rather like Dov Zakheim’s US$1.4tn) and those few records that do survive are in a terrible mess.

    However, since the guy has pleaded guilty we do not need to demonstrate the fraud, because he says he is guilty.

    And look further on the net and you will see that these “victims” have also been told by the US tax authorities that they will probably also be entitled to claim back some taxes on these defrauded sums.

    Rather than saying this hedge fund has gone bust, due to its choice of investment assets and investment methologies, a scenario which is highly probable in the current financial paradigm, since all the professionals are predicting that at least 30% of all hedge funds are about to fail, more than 700 of them, the CEO chooses to fess up to fraud. IF THE CEO ADMIT THE FUND HAS GONE BUST, THEN ALL THOSE WEALTHY MEMBERS OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY GET NOTHING, BUT IF THE CEO ADMIT TO FRAUD THEY GET THE MONEY BACK AS COMPENSATION FROM THE US TAXPAYER,JUST AS THEY ALSO DRAWING MONEY BACK FROM THE TAXPAYERS WITH THE OTHER HAND.”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20081224&articleId=11488

  43. kahar said on December 25th, 2008 at 9:40am #

    Petronius: “the eugenics program is a new one to me and probably purely spurious”

    UNBELIEVABLE. You need to wake up mate. Why don’t you check it out instead running away and hiding your head in the sand?

  44. kahar said on December 25th, 2008 at 10:00am #

    Petronius what you said amounts to Holocaust denial (–Holocaust, as in it’s actual meaning: complete burning, as is the case of irradiating 100,000 children’s brains).

  45. Petronius said on December 25th, 2008 at 10:38am #

    kahar, where can I find info on that irradiation program you mention ?

  46. Petronius said on December 25th, 2008 at 10:45am #

    kahar (and others), you may want to read israel shamir’s website and his article ‘ Madoff Perplexed Ken’ which gives a good prespective on what madoff is all about…

  47. Petronius said on December 25th, 2008 at 10:53am #

    http://www.israelshamir.net
    “The Madoff Affair, a guide to the perplexed antisemite”

  48. kahar said on December 25th, 2008 at 11:08am #

    search engine?
    http://booksinternationale.pbwiki.com/The+Ringworm+Children
    http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/3438
    http://bp3.blogger.com/_PB5-El7se4s/RuXOmYFHIkI/AAAAAAAADwE/eEX1g_vckro/s1600-h/ringworm.jpg
    http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=8612
    etc..

  49. Don Hawkins said on December 25th, 2008 at 11:13am #

    Petronius just went to that web site interesting. Alway’s the same thing all the roads lead to the money. Anyway the next year ahead could be a tipping point in many way’s.

  50. kahar said on December 25th, 2008 at 11:16am #

    Petronius: “The Madoff Affair, a guide to the perplexed antisemite”

    I’m not interested in your emotional problems, only the facts since it is people like me who are paying these overfed wealthy criminal pigs, see article I posted from Global Research. It is an absolute disgrace and no doubt the UK government (dominated by Friends of Israel) have participated in this conspiracyto defraud the taxpayer. Play your antisemite crap somewhere else.

  51. Tree said on December 25th, 2008 at 12:57pm #

    Bozh, your history of the Jews is selective, at best. Jews did flee Europe after WWII. Their treatment in Poland after the war was horrible and shameful.
    You seem to think that the policies of Israel make any persecution of the Jews null and void. It doesn’t.

  52. bozh said on December 25th, 2008 at 3:26pm #

    tree,
    re polands treatment of ‘jews’ after it became communist, i can note that ex-yuga, usssr. and other communist lands have treated ‘jews’ well.
    as far as i know, there was no ill treatment of ‘jews’ anywhere in europe.
    what the imerialists needed was cannon fodder to obtain palestine by warfare and terror.
    most people w. judaic faith, an admixture of dozens of folks, did’n flee not left communist lands- at least not in significant numbers.
    and most who left chose germany, canada, US, and the americas.
    iranians ‘jews’ also haven’t left iran.
    it was in sixtys, after US took israel under its wing, that the socalled zionists began shouting, Let my people go.
    usssr did heed the call and let out many ‘jews'; again, not all or even most chose israel.
    israel as a state for jews only wld have not been viable w.o influx of immigrants.
    anyhow, i have never come across a history book that ‘jews” fled europe.
    if they “fled”, they had to flee some kind of hostilities. did they leave canada, US, UK, france because they were in danger?
    can’t be; since all of europe was strongly (as is now) proisrael. thnx
    even so, all this has little significance. what is most significant is that euros have destroyed palestine. thnx

  53. Don Hawkins said on December 25th, 2008 at 4:33pm #

    Another significant part is unless some very hard choices are made and that includes a new way of thinking using reason and the knowledge we have today many things we write about today will seem like a walk in the park on a clear day.

  54. Don Hawkins said on December 25th, 2008 at 5:24pm #

    We will know soon.

    Washington, D.C. (CaymanMama.com) — Proving to the nation that he will be more aggressive on global warming than the current president, president-elect Barack Obama named his choices for the new administration’s science team on Saturday. Among that team is a Harvard physicist and a marine biologist.

    John Holdren and Jane Lubchenco are experts in the field of climate change, and both have advocated progressive government action to bring about change and global improvement. Holdren will serve as Obama’s science adviser as director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy. Lubchenco will become head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which manages ocean and atmospheric analysis and conducts the majority of the government’s research on global warming.

    According to the Associated Press, Holdren also will direct the president’s Council of Advisers on Science and Technology.

    Holdren also will oversee Obama’s Council of Advisers on Science and Technology. Holden’s co-chairs will be Nobel Prize-winning scientist Harold Varmus, a former director of the National Institutes of Health, and Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Eric Lander, an expert in human genome research.

    “It’s time we once again put science at the top of our agenda and worked to restore America’s place as the world leader in science and technology,” Obama said during a weekly radio address.

    “From landing on the moon, to sequencing the human genome, to inventing the Internet, America has been the first to cross that new frontier because we had leaders who paved the way,” Obama said. “Leaders who not only invested in our scientists, but who respected the integrity of the scientific process.”

  55. Petronius said on December 26th, 2008 at 7:22am #

    horrible kahar, thnx. I didnt know….

  56. Petronius said on December 26th, 2008 at 7:26am #

    and kahar, calling names is a weakness, not worth replying to. if that is the extent of your political insight and the nonsense of emotional problems that I might have, then you have a long way to go, brother !

  57. Jeff said on December 26th, 2008 at 3:27pm #

    I’m sure most if not all of you are aware that the Jewish people have been persecuted for centuries. The Holocaust is, of course, one of the most recent and resulted in the most deaths. Others have used Jews as scapegoats forever; it makes them feel better about themselves. That’s why people belittle other groups of people – to build themselves up. The Jewish community does more for the suffering people of the world (such as in Darfur and other nations) than the 100-times larger Christian community. It’s ironic how little compassion Christians actually have despite what Jesus believed. Muslims, of course, are the haters of the world. Their society is based on hatred, deceit, blame and laziness. While they use the Palestinian suffering to their advantage, everyone knows they could’ve cared less about these people. They could’ve solved this problem decades ago with their oil money. Instead, they turned their backs on the Palestinians and regarded them as “dirty” Muslims. The most heinous crimes committed in World history, financial or otherwise, are attributable to Christians and Muslims. They’re like the big bully brother who, instead of working on his own shortcomings to become a better man, continues to pick on and have jealousy and hatred for the weaker, younger brother. The Israeli’s have been trying for 60 years to give the Palestinians back their dignity (which is more than they deserve at this point). All they asked for in return was peace. Palestinians have been led astray first by Arafat (who stole millions of dollars from his people; funny you don’t talk about that) and now by a bunch of terrorists. I’m afraid you folks are blinded by your hatred for Israel and the Jews. You are never willing to see, let alone acknowledge, the other side’s viewpoint. That, in and of itself, is the most telling evidence of your bigotry, unfairness and ignorance. Nothing in life is black and white, including the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Jews would love nothing more than for the Israeli’s and Palestinians to live side-by-side, hand-in-hand. The power brokers in the muslim world, however, want nothing of it. They want death to Israeli’s and perhaps to Jews world wide. They have explicitly stated in writing and otherwise that they will go to any extreme to achieve this and will continue this quest until accomplished. The muslims should be embarrassed and humiliated by their past, their present, their leaders and their nations. They are a billion of angry racists who are so insecure and so humiliated, that they live to get rid of everyone else so that they don’t have to be reminded of how badly they screwed up their position in the world letting their people become peasants under violent dictators that led them astray. The best thing you could do for yourselves and the world is go away.

  58. KatRob said on December 26th, 2008 at 5:01pm #

    When jews and their apologists have no argument, they resort to name-calling.

    In reply to the person who whined about the ill-treatment of jews in Poland after the war, it was on the contrary, jew communists from Russia ravaged Europe, murdering and raping along the way. Don’t fall for the jew is always the victim bull, they are always the aggressors. Study the Russian Revolution/Bolshevik War wherein jews murdered 60 million Russians, the REAL Holocaust. They murdered 300,000 priests, not one rabbi was harmed, they burned down all the churches, not one SINagogue was touched. No documentaries, no Oscar-winning movies when it comes to the crimes of the Children of Satan.

    The jews declared war on Hitler, he did what he had to do to save his people and country. They said when they were done with Christian Russia, Germany was next.

    As for the person who insists the holocaust happened in Germany, all those old news reels of skeletal people, that wasn’t Hitler’s doing, that was the Allies who wouldn’t allow food and medicine to get in so jews and Gentile alike died of starvation and natural causes. To this day they haven’t found evidence of gas chambers and/or ovens. The building they claim was a gas chamber, was a delousing chamber, no evidence of gas, no ventiliation, the Nazis would have succumb too. As for 20,000 jews being fried up in an oven, where’s all the teeth and other reminants usually present after a cremation. In 2008 it takes several hours to cremate one body, we’re supposed to believe in the 1940s the Nazis could cremate 20,000 a day? Don’t be so naive. They already admitted their other stories were lies, Nazis making lampshades and bars of soap out of dead jews for example.

    From the beginning of time, jews have been a murdering, thieving bunch and I will relish the day when they are scattering like the cockroaches they are because of the ire of the world

    As for Madoff, another scam so had thieving jews can add to their wealth. How convenient all his victims are fellow-jews. If he really did steal from his own, they would have murdered him by now. The Talmud clearly states you can murder, steal, etc., from a Gentile, do it to a fellow jew and it’s the death sentence.

    The Talmud also says that Jesus is in hell burning in hot excrement and the Virgin Mary was a whore. MERRY CHRISTMAS.

  59. ari said on December 26th, 2008 at 10:57pm #

    Bozh, let’s go through these claims one by one:
    #

    tree,
    re polands treatment of ‘jews’ after it became communist, i can note that ex-yuga, usssr. and other communist lands have treated ‘jews’ well.

    Well, not really. There were Jewish journalists who documented the crimes of the local populations in the Ukraine, Bellarus, Latvia, Lithuania during WWII (read The Black Book and The Unknown Black Book) and Stalin turned on them because they implied that Soviet citizens had participated in the murder of their neighbours, and this could not possibly happen under the Soviet system (old anti-semitism has a way of transcending political structures – just look at the anti-semitism in the Ukraine today and trace it back as far as you care to go). Most of the Jewish journalists who had operated with Stalin’s approval later ended up being hanged or put in the Gulag. Additionally, Soviet Jewish dissidents like Andrei Sakharov and Natan Sharansky were singled out for extraordinary abuse by the Soviet Union. The Kielce pogrom took place in Poland in 1946 after WWII ended when it was under Soviet control. Once again, deeply-entrenched anti-semitism transcends political institutions.

    as far as i know, there was no ill treatment of ‘jews’ anywhere in europe.

    Just read about attempts of Jewish citizens of Germany and other countries to recover their art and businesses from non-Jewish citizens or in some cases from the nations themselves. Look at the difficulty that Jews have had in trying to recover stolen assets from banks in Switzerland despite having documentation to support their claims. Jews have had to go to court to try to recover property, art, money, and family jewelry. There was ill-treatment of Jews in Europe, and it continues to this day in some institutions,

    what the imerialists needed was cannon fodder to obtain palestine by warfare and terror.

    Orthodox Jews were in eretz Israel in the 1800’s. Jews were 12% of the population of Israel in 1900. The proportion rose dramatically after 1932 and before the beginning of WWII because many Jews saw what was coming and fled, yes, fled to Israel. After WWII the surviving Jews having seen what happened to their family members and friends the fled to Israel because it looked like the only place on earth in which Jews could defend themselves against nations and people with genocidal intentions. The imperialists did not have to use Jews as canon fodder – they left mostly on their own. The canon fodder argument sounds good as a conspiracy theory, but it does not stand up to history.

    most people w. judaic faith, an admixture of dozens of folks, did’n flee not left communist lands- at least not in significant numbers.

    That, in part, is because 1) they were PREVENTED from leaving countries under Soviet control (you couldn’t just decide that you wanted to leave for France, and then go, as in the west), and 2) there were not that many Jews left after the Shoah, so of course, you wouldn’t see significant numbers leave. Ask yourself how many Jews were left in communist Poland after WWII. 90% of the 3 million Jews in Poland were killed in the Shoah. So the simple fact is that they did not flee from communist Poland “in significant numbers” because they no longer had the numbers that would have qualified as significant after having been murdered by the Nazis and Poles.

    and most who left chose germany, canada, US, and the americas.

    This is simply not true. It was exceedingly difficult to gain admittance to the US during and immediately after the war. Other countries were not quite as restrictive.

    iranians ‘jews’ also haven’t left iran.

    Once again this is not true. The Jewish population of Iran in 1948 was 100,000. Today it is less than 25,000. If Jews had not “left Iran”, then simple population growth over that period would have pushed their number far above 100,000 – thus, they left Iran in large numbers. Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh, a Jew, was hanged in prison in Iran in 1998 for helping Jews to leave Iran. Jews are not free just to leave Iran.

    it was in sixtys, after US took israel under its wing, that the socalled zionists began shouting, Let my people go.

    Your history is unsupported by the facts. If it had been Zionists who had promoted the “free Russian Jewry” campaign, where would most of those Jews have gone? Probably to Israel. Instead, the campaign was started after Jews in the US with family members trapped in the USSR agitated to get them released. It was also motivated by the widespread knowledge of how Jews like Sakharov and later Sharansky were treated in the Soviet Union. Jews around the world, not just Zionists, realized that the Jews in the Soviet Union could not do something as simple as light candles for the Sabbath without arousing suspicion or being arrested.

    usssr did heed the call and let out many ‘jews’; again, not all or even most chose israel.

    But very large numbers did. Many streets in Israel today have signs in both Hebrew and Russian. There is a huge Russian Jewish population in Israel as a result of various waves of emigration from the USSR.

    israel as a state for jews only wld have not been viable w.o influx of immigrants.

    Israel has never been a state for Jews only. Go to Israeli Universities like Ben Gurion in Be’er Sheva and notice the substantial number of Moslem students attending class. Drive from Be’re Sheva to Jerusalem and notice the large numbers of towns with Minarets rising from their Mosques. Arabs comprise 20% of the population of Israel.

    anyhow, i have never come across a history book that ‘jews” fled europe.

    This is a truly astounding remark. Ask any historian of modern Europe whether Jews fled Europe and see what the answer is. Of course they fled Europe. Having been in Displaced Persons camps for years, not being able to locate family, not being able to recover housing and businesses what alternative did they have but to flee in many cases from a local population that was not happy to see them return after the war because in many cases, they had stolen the apartments and furnishings from their Jewish neighbours when they thought that they were never going to return? Now there’s stealing for you.

    if they “fled”, they had to flee some kind of hostilities. did they leave canada, US, UK, france because they were in danger?

    There are many reasons to flee. You can flee religious persecution, you can flee violence, you can flee from an intolerable discrimination. Hostilities are but one reason that one might chose to flee. And let’s see if we could step into the shoes of a holocaust survivor right after the war: “I thought before the war that the German people would never stand by and let their fellow Germans murder millions of innocent men, women and children. But they did. I never thought that the French would collaborate with the Nazis given their strong desire for liberty, equality and fraternity, but many of them did. I am alone in a place (Europe) that just murdered my extended family and 6 million other Jews. This place is scary. I need to get out of here and find some place where Jews can take care of themselves.” That’s fleeing after WWII – an experience that many Jews had.

    can’t be; since all of europe was strongly (as is now) proisrael.

    How do you explain the repeated attempts by English University Unions to boycott ACADEMIC relations of any sort with Israeli academics, but not with academics from other countries such as China which brutally represses dissent in Tibet, or Egypt which brutally represses dissent of almost any kind? I have heard no calls for a boycott of Chinese or Egyptian academics.

    But perhaps you are right. Perhaps Europe saw that what was proposed in 1948 was a 2-state solution (the partitioning of Palestine), and they saw that the Israelis built a prosperous country from their part, while the Arab states found it in their own self-interest to keep the Palestinians forever stateless, creating ghettoes for them in Jordan and Lebanon, keeping them always in the role of the oppressed to divert attention from their own corrupt authoritarian regimes. Given those choices, it’s little wonder that Europe supports Israel.

    thnx
    even so, all this has little significance. what is most significant is that euros have destroyed palestine. thnx

    It is the Arabs who have shamelessly exploited the Palestinian people for their own selfish ends and in so doing have ruined their chances for a state of their own. The Palestinians are indeed the victims here, but ask yourself who made the decision in 1948 to refuse a 2-state solution that if it had been accepted could have produced at least a peaceful if not necessarily ideal or optimal state of affairs in the region.

    #

  60. ml said on December 27th, 2008 at 5:00am #

    What does Bozh’s comment say about this article. The first comment? Very, very revealing.

  61. Josef Batog said on December 27th, 2008 at 6:10am #

    To the Jew Ari,
    I am a polish Jew, I have only one comment to your laments.
    This is all a boolshit .
    After WWII 90% of “polish secret police officers
    was a Jews. Post war concentration camp in Poland (Swietochlowice) for AK soldiers and Polish children has been governed by Jews Officers (Salomon Morel was Commander) for example.
    The government was in hands of Jews , Hilary Minc , J Rapacki, president B Bierut, S Spychalski, J Cyrankiewich, Radkiewicj, J . Brestiger, Arato Feigin, and thousands more.

    shalom Ari

  62. Pooche said on December 27th, 2008 at 7:18am #

    The Zionists build “holocaust” museums all over the place. They are popping up like corner taverns in a middle class neighborhood. The Zionist mantra is “never forget”, but if you try and learn what they want you to never forget? You are a “revisionist” if you dig deeper than they want you to.
    In essence? They want you to never forget what they alone tell you. Do not think for yourself or investigate. You are then anti-semetic.
    Don’t forget that!

  63. Edward S. said on December 27th, 2008 at 8:06am #

    First of all, Bernie Madoff is part of a team. The big boys that he “swindled” all have fraud insurance. In order for that fraud insurance to kick in, Madoff has to be convicted. Most of the stolen money is safe in banks in Israel. Now they are stealing it twice through insurance fraud as well. I learned this from Bob Chapman. Listen to a free MP3 download of his interview at http://drop.io/Summerbird I thought it was extremely suspicious that when the FBI came to arrest Madoff, they asked him if there was a simple explanation. He said, nope, guilty as charged. Take me away. He’s playing the game and the stupid media never asks questions. They just take the shit they are fed and vomit it back to us. That is why they are “repeaters” not “reporters.” Madoff will get three years at a luxury federal prison then be free to go to Israel and enjoy the billions he stole along with the other scam artists in on the deal. We will once again be saddled with the bailout costs, while Madoff and his team will be laughing at our stupidity. So let’s stop being stupid.

  64. Richard said on December 27th, 2008 at 9:09am #

    Instead of complaining, I always try to find a competitor for whatever does not satisfy me. I don’t like Microsoft, so I use Linux and Macs. I don’t like the arrogance of BMW, so I bought a Mitsubishi Evo and had it modified to the max, which is easy to do. For those who don’t know, BMW only allows a few companies (mainly Dinan) to modify their cars. Now we have the Nissan GTR, superior to BMW M5 in every way. The Jews serve an indispensable function in every society where they are found. You don’t like the way they are doing their job? Don’t bitch; find a competitor! Who? Asians! In India, anyone with the last name “Patel” is from the business caste. They have been bred for business acumen for thousands of years. Invite them here! Actually, they are already here and have taken over the hotel business. The Chinese business class serves the same function as Jews in many Asian countries. Let them come if they have, say, $10M in the bank. Actually, they are here already. Vietnamese and Koreans are now serving the same function as Jews did when they first arrived in the US (1880 to 1920). You are not satisfied with Jewish lawyers? Did you happen to see the movie “Gandhi” ? Remember what profession Gandhi was? Gandhi was a Brahmin! Brahmins have been bred for intellectual pursuits for thousands of years. They can be lawyers and professors. Now I suspect you will find plenty to bitch about when you deal with Asians. But the point is, you will have a choice. The fact is, some jobs are best done by minorities, outsiders, those who have ties outside this country. You don’t want to support Zionism? Fine. Deal with Chinese. Indians, like Zionists, don’t like Muslims but when push comes to shove Indians will look after themselves and not Israel. Let’s say you really don’t like what some call “Jewish Racial Supremacists” Here is the most effective strategy you can use: have your sons marry Jewish girls and have children with them. That should take care of the racial supremacy idea pretty damn quick. Guess what: it’s happening already.
    Always remember: there is nothing perfect in this world; at best, we have choices among imperfect alternatives.

  65. Claymoremind said on December 27th, 2008 at 9:33am #

    Madoff is only in the early stages of disclosure. When all is washed out, the wave of anti-semitism, pro-shemitism will be a tsunani.

    Ashkanazis have contaminated every nook and cranny of regulatory structures, as evidenced by this document which shows that the SEC was fully aware of Madoff in late 2005.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/9189285/Markopolos-Madoff-Complaint

    We need a Byzantine solution where jews aren’t allowed in banking, government, or teaching.

  66. Barrington James said on December 27th, 2008 at 9:52am #

    Several points.
     
    It really is difficult for any honest, well informed Israeli to defend the actions of Ben Guerion who in 1948 said to his fellow Zionists to not worry about the amount of land in Palestine that they were about to be to be given because he planned on taking it all anyway. And his well trained European soldiers did exactly that against the defenseless Palestinians. However, it is also difficult to defend the actions of the other Arab countries who refused to take in the 800, 000 Palestinian refugees at that time. This makes for part of the mess in the Middle East. The other part is of course the fact that both the USA and GB need a fort in that region.
     
    It is also so ironic that the Palestinians who are now Muslims and Christians and were, no doubt, the original the Jews of Palestine are treated so badly by the Israelis who are obviously mostly either Europeans or Khazars, with a tiny minority of Semitic Jews who are treated as second class citizens of Israel.
     
     

  67. Ari said on December 27th, 2008 at 9:59am #

    #
    Josef Batog said on December 27th, 2008 at 6:10am #

    To the Jew Ari,
    I am a polish Jew, I have only one comment to your laments.
    This is all a boolshit .

    Thanks. The members of my extended family who fled Poland after WWII appreciate your labeling their experience as “boolshit.” And talking about the number of Jews in the Polish secret service after the war does little to address all of the other points that I discussed. Dismissing them as all “boolshit” doesn’t really promote honest and open discussion and civil disagreement.

    After WWII 90% of “polish secret police officers
    was a Jews.

    So how many Jews would that have been in the Polish Secret Police? A few thousand? How does that compare to the 150,000 to 200,000 who fled Poland for Palestine in the years after the war? And what does that have to do at all with incidents like the Kielce Pogrom? Were the deaths of those Jews “boolshit.”

    Post war concentration camp in Poland (Swietochlowice) for AK soldiers and Polish children has been governed by Jews Officers (Salomon Morel was Commander) for example.
    The government was in hands of Jews , Hilary Minc , J Rapacki, president B Bierut, S Spychalski, J Cyrankiewich, Radkiewicj, J . Brestiger, Arato Feigin, and thousands more.

    And you points is what? Because some Jews were committed communists and stepped into positions of power in postwar Poland, what does that have to do with all of the other points that Bozh made about Jews fleeeing Poland?

    Finally, whether I am a Jew or not, calling me “the Jew Ari” is just labeling people with labels that divide rather than unite. Call me what you want, but I was hoping for some more civil discourse instead of name-calling.

  68. bozh said on December 27th, 2008 at 10:18am #

    ari,
    i didn’t say that there was no persecution or illtreatment of jews during ww2.
    i said that there was no illtreatmnet of ‘jews’ in any communist land.
    poland, as u surely know, became communist after the war.
    it shld be noted that poles were fiercely anticommunist.
    as i said in another post, many ‘jews’ fought germany; so it is highly unlikely that they had been mistreated and especially in view that communists were strongly for a ‘jewish’ state in expalestine.
    as for ‘jewish’ journalists witnessing crimes in poland against ‘jews’, it can be a bit of a stretch.
    i am not touching this.

    u’v also entered sociology: people lying, stealing, etc., from jews and ‘jews’ doing or not doing likewise.
    let more knowledgeable people delve into this.

    ab cannon fodder. well, i cld have said zionists needed ‘jews’ in plstn.
    even in ’48, state of isr contained 500td ‘jews’ and 400td pals while in the other state ther were some 700td pals and 100td jews.
    since that wld mean end of a ‘jewish’ state, money was provided for ‘jews’ who wanted to go to isr.
    not to mention propaganda; such as ‘jews’ being persecuted in europe.
    according to Martin Gilbert, as many ‘jews’ left isr as came in.

    there was immigration to palestine even before UK mandate of it.
    few stayed. the land they left was not isr (n. kingdom); it was destroyed by assyrians 2800 yrs ago; to such a degree that no trace cld be found of the israelites.
    palestine was always inhabited by a canaanitic/shemitic volk. it isn’t, nor wi ll it ever be anything else; ie, a nonshemitic land.

    i do not know whether soviets had prevented ‘jews’, the nonshemites, from leaving usssr until sixtys.
    it ought to be known that even UK had been preventing large immigation of ‘jews’ into palestine.
    the reasons for that is obvious. it shld be noted that the Labor govt rejected arab demand UK stop immigration completely.
    USSR turned against isr after it realized it had been made fool of. and thus prevented ‘jews’ from leaving.

    US had quotas; UK wld not accepts any ‘jews’.

    i also do not recognize isr nor the ‘jewish’ state; i recognize only plstn.
    but canada, US and all christians do.

    the ‘jews’ were oft illegaly entering psltn after ww2. as noted above UK had trouble stopping all of them. some who were caughtd were deported to cyprus.
    they left; they left says MG, a friend of the israelis and who consulted and got advice from ‘jews'; many ‘jews’, was there one pal among the advisers? it doesn’t seem so.

    it can be noted that the hebrews have, if torah is correct, slaughtered amelikites, hivvites, jebusites, et al.

    it can be noted that the meanest antishemites r socalled zionists; who have nothing to do w. zion since these people are not shemitic, canaanitic nor hebraic; just thieves/criminals. thnx

  69. Ari said on December 27th, 2008 at 10:20am #

    I find it very interesting that nobody thinks to call out all of the other heads of the financial firms on Wall street and CEO’s of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac who together were responsible for far more damage than Madoff. Why the vitriol about Madoff when these others did things that will eventually lead to far more misery and suffering than Madoff’s Ponzi scheme? I for one think that the obsessive focus on Madoff being Jewish and his many Jewish investors misses the point about the far bigger losses resulting from the actions of these other individuals. Did anybody launch into these personal attacks against the heads of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? What about attacks on the head of AIG? Why aren’t these cases subjected to the same arguments about evidence of another in a long line of “Christian” fraud and corruption?

  70. Athena said on December 27th, 2008 at 10:30am #

    We are all vulnerable to fallen victim of Greed. How much Greed we fall victim to is determined by who falls victim of the Greedier … these are the real questions …and then there is those who must survive after falling victim to senseless Greed. Athena

  71. Michael said on December 27th, 2008 at 12:23pm #

    I am Jewish and had absolutely nothing to do with Bernard Madoff. In fact I have no connections to the financial industry. I have never engaged in swindling or other acts associated with conning people of their money. I have never been to Israel and am fairly ignorant of Jewish religious practices. I have many Christian friends, including one who I consider my brother.

    So am I one of the Zionist conspirators who is corrupt and clannish? I am a Jew, but like this blog I also struggle for “peace and social justice.” Do my struggles not count as much as yours? Have the people I helped not benefited as much as the ones you helped?

  72. moleman said on December 27th, 2008 at 2:42pm #

    It seems to me that the solution for the Israel-Palestinian problem has already been described in both Thora and Bible. Think of King Schlomo (Salomon). Two mothers (nations) fighting for the same child (land).
    His solution was to kill the baby and let each have a part.
    So, I suggest we start nuking Israel and let the land for those who still want it afterwards…

  73. "Dave" said on December 27th, 2008 at 3:39pm #

    This has been a very interesting discussion.

    I think the biggest problem we have down here in the trenches is that the wealthy are always using labels to help their cause and keep us separate and alone.

    The thing we can all be sure of is that the rich are gonna keep getting richer and the rest of us are gonna keep working for them.

    I’ve become very interested in the way jewish history and western history are so intwined it seems hard to really pull out too many individual threads and say this is jewish and this isn’t. Whether it is because of persecution or other reasons, there seems to be much hidden jewish history in the past and it appears to affect the present but not in the way people think.

    My take on history is that there have been several periods when the peasant population has risen-up against the wealth, usually with goading from some charismatic leader which seem to appear out of thin air. Usually this is just a power-play between factions of wealth and they use the peasants as their tools which does two things; first is occupies the peasants; second it loosens up resources that can then be stolen from the previous owners (who themselves probably stole from others).

    We seem to get really caught-up labeling people and the funny thing is the more we split hairs about the jews or the christians or the muslums or hindus the easier it is for those who have the wealth to continue to steal from the people.

    A rich fucker is still a rich fucker, no mater what god they claim says it’s ok.

    Petronius-you have done a wonderful job of explaining your points, well done, even if I don’t agree with all of them, they were very well presented. Some of the sniping on these boards seems to come from those who still want to be part of a “team” which is how we all got in this mess in the first place.

    I don’t like rich and powerful assholes, regardless of religion, and that is calling it truthfully.

    It would be nice if there were just once race of humans that were causing the rest of us problems–we could simply vote them all off the earth–but there seems to be no monopoly on rich assholes.

    I know the zionist seem to hold the reigns on our money, but this has more to do with how long families can control resources and the jews were there at the start of western history. But the rest of the religions are quickly figuring it out.

    I feel our historic peasant problems have more to do with the wealthy bloodlines passing their wealth down thru the ages, rather than their choice of gods.

    I think it was ages ago the really rich realized it was easier to keep the peasants arguing amongst themselves outside the gates of the castle, than have them inside breaking the crystal.

    Dave

  74. spiritoflove said on December 27th, 2008 at 4:41pm #

    …Michael
    Are you Jewish?… does your passport say American? If so then you are american, not Jewish. What makes one jewish? is it blood, religion or country of residence. Which of these do you relate your jewishness to? I for one am sick of talmudic jews/converted akenazis (who are not of the “jewish race”) who apply/endorse/follow that book of racist filth the talmud to attack, kill, steal from gentiles as if it were some kind of divine service and then have the audacity to whinge about “anti-semitism” when exposed! Hypocties!! What needs to be done is to ban and expose the Tell-mud (sic) as a book of evil, and rabbi’s who push it should be jailed. Then we will be rid of zionism and ‘anti-semitism” will disappear as Talmudic Jews stop stealing lying and cheating every one who is not a Jewish. To me the “chosen people” who are recorded in history as ‘God instructed genocidists’ who began nationhood by stealing the land of the Caanites were chosen by lucifer not the creator.

  75. Tree said on December 27th, 2008 at 6:15pm #

    The hatred, ignorance and intolerance of some of the comments here are too much for me! Would love to know how some of you think we will ever overcome war and intolerance if you are full of such hatred and wish to see Israel nuked off the planet.
    I mean, the last time I checked, this is newsletter for peace and social justice, right?
    But please, by all means, continue on. Foam at the mouth, express your intolerance while you can and contribute to the general dysfunction we see on the planet every day.

  76. paschn said on December 27th, 2008 at 6:26pm #

    On the plus side,

    When the zhid bastards in their burning hatred of ALL ‘cept themselves boils over and they attack Iran, all the concrete walls the swine used to pen-in the Palestinians will protect them, (palestinians), a bit when the Russian bear makes a smoking crater of that nasty little terrorist nation.
    Bonus!
    It might give power back to the people of the “toady” nations of France/U.S.A./U.K. No, wait….NOT. A foul coward is still a foul coward no matter who his master is;
    Zionist murderers or Corporate thugs. My bad.

  77. Hannan said on December 27th, 2008 at 7:35pm #

    There food for thought. I want to share 2 ideas regarding the so called Burnt Offering.

    1. So perhaps a few million Jews were killed in WWII. They are all alive an well now. I personally recall many of my “past” lives. I’ve died thousands of times. Do I look any worse for it? No!

    1. Why do Israelis have to change their names to their Hebrew names? Is there some other use to this?

    Going back in time in the Akashic Records (the waveform harmonic which all actions and thoughts of every being to exist in this universe is recorded) I see trains full of Jews. But they go to Palestine. They cahge there names because they are supposed to be dead.

    Why did the TOP TIER ZIONIST refuse to save them when they had the chance? Wasn’t Hitler part Jew?

    oooo….. Now it’s starting to make sense.

    Honestly I have more important things to spend my time on, like solving real issues of the day. All I can say is WHAT IF? What if the first settlers in Israel were imports from Europe having supposedly cooked in a non existent Death Camp.

    Lots of Love and Laughter,

    Hannan the Funky Omnisapien

  78. chris said on December 27th, 2008 at 9:06pm #

    I agree with Michael – not all Jews are guilty, bad, etc. Let’s understand that there are many honorable & moral Jewish people against zionism. It is political nationalist zionism that is the cancer not religious judasim. There are many moral jews against immoral zionism who are “true jews” that believe that “ONLY God” can return his people to the promised land, Isreal and its is absolute blasmophy to “act like God” wherein Jews (or anyone else) does this instead of God. Knowledge is power and sooner or later Ari and his felow zionist will not be able to keep inconvienent facts hidden forever. Isreal claims to be a democrcy yet does not allow the Palestinans to vote in Gaza & West Bank. Something has to give sooner or later and for those interested in the the truth……they should read RENSE.COM

  79. Dennass said on December 28th, 2008 at 1:21am #

    Zionism permeates every level of our culture. 12 years ago I had the unfortunate timing of making a presentation to our local county supervisors on the study and findings of Home Rule that had been commissioned by our own governor 40 years earlier, on the same day that another gentleman came to talk about the issue of forming a local militia.

    As I had the actual copies of the Governors study to present to each supervisor and the clerk of the board, which had no reference to militias, a local reporter took it upon himself to link me and the militia, and hence labels of right wing anti semitic, white supremiscist etc. ad nauseum in front page of our local paper. When I supplied a copy of the transcript of the meeting and a copy of the governors report to the publisher and editor of the local paper, along with affidavits that I had no knowledge of the “other presentation that day”, they just blew me off and basically told me to go e@+ $#!+. Then another local rag jumped on the bandwagon, along with the ADL and Morris Dees and his group of low lifes.

    Funny thing is that through High School and College I worked for several good Jewish clothing companies. Each one gave me impeccable references, good business training, taught me the clothing business, mentored me and a lot of other gentile/goyim and were all honest, generous business and family men. And good Americans who had served their country in the military. Funny thing is that none of them ever really had anything good to say about Israel and most if not all of them had been there !

    Some of the worst Zionist’s in this country are not even jewish and most of them work for the press or stand in church pul[pits] and spout zionist dogma. Goyim scum!

  80. susie said on December 28th, 2008 at 3:39am #

    Most of the zionists have no claim to Israel anyway. They come from the Caucasus. They are very busy moving in there too, note the immediate attempts of ethnic cleansing once they get an ugly foot in the door. The South Ossetians and Abhazians would be Palestinian like toast, but for Russia.
    Many in the Georgian governent hold dual Georgian/Israeli citizenship. They cause war and murder whereever they go.
    I am also sick and tired of the Holocaust.
    The Russians lost 30 million dead (mind you a pittance compared to the Russian dead from the Jewish imposed enslavery of communism). Why don’t we remember that 30 million each year, after all they died turning back the Jewish financed Nazi war machine.
    Compared to Leningrad the so-called ‘camps’ were a doddle. What is more many of the so-called victims died from allied imposed starvation which also killed some 3 million Germans post war.
    The truth is seeping out.
    I enjoyed reading the list of Madoff’s victims. Unfortunately they were not all Jews but European banks already reeling from the economic meltdown caused by greed dragging trillions out of the world economical system. Guess what? Yes largely by Jews.

  81. bozh said on December 28th, 2008 at 9:08am #

    susie, yes
    the euroasians w. judaic faith r not descendants of hebraic people.
    hebrews selves were a shemitic people or a mixure of assyrians and akkadians of the mesopotamia.
    the torah, actually denies that the hebrews who came to palestine from Ur, r descendants of shem; instead it claims hebrews descended from isaac. and isaac self may have been a shemite.
    the word “semite” is an euro corruption.
    be it as it may. but socalled zionist claim that they r descendants of the judeans, is clearly false.
    nor r these landstealers/criminals zionists. only a hebrew can be rightfully called “zionist” but, of course, it doesn’t mean that hebrews selves had a right to zion/canaan.
    socalled jews r composed of dozens, if not of a hundred, folks; none of which have any connection to zion.
    these people identify their cult of a people whom jahweh had severely punished (none of them may be left around) w. nationality.
    they r the only people, as far as i know, who do this.
    sooner or later they will be punished. thnx

  82. Doug said on December 28th, 2008 at 1:37pm #

    The Angry Peasant said:

    >> And Doug, don’t start that “Holocaust never happened” crap. I don’t think all those old newsreels were just featuring actors who got into their roles by starving themselves into walking skeletons. <<

    You are confusing cause and effect. The effect of many people starving and many people dying is very different from the cause known as The Holocaust(tm). The Holocaust(tm) is a very specific event with very specific set of required beliefs.

    According to Wikipedia, The Holocaust(tm) is “the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (Nazi) regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

    Also, according to the Wikipedia, a Holocaust(tm) Denier, such as myself, is someone who rejects one or more of the following notions:

    1. that the Nazi government had a policy of deliberately targeting Jews and people of Jewish ancestry for extermination as a people;

    2. that between five and seven million Jews were systematically killed by the Nazis and their allies

    3. and that genocide was carried out at extermination camps using tools of mass murder, such as gas chambers.

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denier)

    Therefore, if you believe that 6 million Jews were killed, but that there were no gas chambers, or if you believe that 3 million Jews were killed with gas chambers, you are a Holocaust(tm) Denier.

    I do not believe that there was a Nazi government policy to exterminate all Jews. If there was a policy to exterminate Jews, how could Anne Frank have survived Auschwitz and how is it that she died of typhus in an SS hospital at Bergen-Belsen? If the policy was extermination, why was she put into a hospital and not allowed to die? Why was she not killed outright as soon as she got to Auschwitz? And why did the Nazis bother to tattoo identification numbers on people that they planned to exterminate?

    If the policy was extermination, how is it that so many Jews survived? After the war, the US operated a concentration camp for former German soldiers and in one year about 1.5 million died. However, during the six years of WWII the Germans somehow only managed to kill 6 million Jews. How is it that they did not kill more of them in a year than the Americans killed German soldiers during a year? If 1.5 million persons can be killed accidentally (assuming no US policy of extermination), how is it only 1 million per year can be killed deliberately when there was a state policy to do so? Where is the vaunted German efficiency?

    I also do not believe that between 5 and 7 million Jews were killed during the war. Immediately after the war the claim of 6 million was put forth by US Zionist leaders. For 40 years after the war, Auschwitz was claimed to have been the site of 4 million Jews killed, however in the mid 1990s the claim was reduced to 1-1.5 million, a reduction of 2.5 million. However the original 6 million claim remains sacrosanct. I can do math, I know that 6 million minus 2.5 million is 3.5 million, which is lower than the minimum 5 million figure required of Holocaust(tm) believers.

    Finally, I do not believe that there was gas chambers. The evidence supporting the gas chamber claim is highly suspect. The “gas chamber” shown at Auschwitz was built after the war by the Soviets as an anti-Nazi propaganda device. It is situated across the street from the SS barracks and supposedly the gas was cleared from the chamber into the air after each extermination. Why would the Germans place the gas chamber in such close proximity to their living spaces where the gas could blow if the wind changed direction? Tests done on the chamber’s walls reveal no traces of cyanide, which is unlikely if they were used to kill people with cyanide gas. And why go to such expense and bother to build gas chambers when a simple bullet would be just as effective, less costly, and less dangerous to the killers?

    I do believe that the Germans mistreated the Jews, in much the same way as the Jews are mistreating the Palestinians now. I do believe that large numbers of Jews (and other communists) were shot on the Eastern Front. I do believe that the Germans imprisoned Jews and forced them to work in munitions factories. Many of them died due to starvation and typhus, both of which were caused in part by the Allied blockade and bombing policy.

    However, because I don’t believe in the three tenants of the Holocaust(tm) religion stated above, I am considered a Holocaust(tm) Denier and freely admit that The Holocaust(tm) never happened.

  83. John Hendricks said on December 28th, 2008 at 2:19pm #

    A single hair on the head of a jew is worth the lives of a thousand goyim. Similarly, a single dollar lost by a jew is worth a thousand lost by a goy. Actually, the jews will recover their losses through the US taxpayer, since Madoff confessed to fraud. I smell a fraud within a fraud.

  84. bozh said on December 28th, 2008 at 5:45pm #

    doug,
    i allow free spech and all verbal utterances. so, let’s remember the free speech; say anything u want.
    i found ur piece very interesting. can u give us more detailed information as how many poles, yugoslavs, czechs, gypsies may have perished and r these people in photos of the emaciated people in lagers?

    u r surely aware that germans cldn’t tell a ‘jew’ from an euro. they had to dig deeper to find if a person was a ‘jew’.
    one just cldn’t tell a jew from a russian, pole, german because many of these socalled jews ( i call them “jushits”) looked more polish or german than most poles and germans.
    in any case, the admixture of dozens of voelken w. judaic faith r not shemitic.
    hebrews and arabs are shemitic, or semitic, if one will. europeans shunned the sound SH in names like shmuel, shlomo, shabath, shemite, einstein.
    thnx

  85. susie said on December 29th, 2008 at 3:00am #

    Bozh
    Quote
    ‘i found ur piece very interesting. can u give us more detailed information as how many poles, yugoslavs, czechs, gypsies may have perished and r these people in photos of the emaciated people in lagers?’

    If you want information about the Yugoslavs key in ‘Jasenovac’.
    The Serbs died at the hands of the Nazis and puppets Croatia and Albania in the hundred thousand and were then betrayed by the allies.
    The Serbs are the Palestinians of Europe.
    They were ‘bombed’ back to the stone age’ courtesy of the neocon/jews of the USA because they dared resist the NWO.
    The Germans, Brits and Yanks were all behind the breakup of Yugoslavia – refighting old scores of WW2.
    The KLA was created, funded, trained by neocon USA like the Taliban and many other so-called terror islamic organizations. It was a creation of Osama Bin Laden (yes really!! he was in both Albania and Bosnia) , the CIA and MI6.
    Only a couple of months ago two German agents were arrested attacking UN facilities in Kosovo pretending to be Serbs. Of course the MSM kept silent.

  86. Arthur Midlan said on December 30th, 2008 at 7:33am #

    Nature is solving the ‘contra natura’ problem in its own way. The unassimiliating Jews are gradually expiring through low birth rates and defections from the faith.

  87. Reality said on December 30th, 2008 at 12:34pm #

    Ben- that old conquest of America argument is in no way, shape, or form applicable. That it happened in the PAST, there is NO ARGUMENT. But what the Israelis are doing TODAY can be stopped. So your “You did it to the ‘Indians’ lament” is as worthless as taking the word of an Israeli.

    So, to point out the blindingly obvious- Israel is attempting to re-brand and age old, and outdated, justification of indigenous murder for land. End of story. Cry about it all you want, but at the end of the day, the facts remain.

  88. JR said on December 30th, 2008 at 6:05pm #

    Professor McGowan – have you bothered to look at the tirade of hateful anti-Semitic comment on your website, which you have unleashed with your article? You may be a “professor emeritus”, but despite your erudition you are either naive or just another anti-Semite couching your hatred in the guise of sympathy for Palestinians “oppressed” by Israel.

    Don’t you ever question why ONLY Israeli Jews are singled out for charges of “racism” and “oppression”. Hundreds of thousands of Sudanese have been murdered and enslaved. Arab countries routinely execute homosexuals and women. China has repopulated Tibet with ethnic Chinese. Where is the world’s condemnation of that?

    Saudi Arabia doesn’t permit Jews to enter and worshipping Christ is punishable by death. In Egypt, the Christian Copts are persecuted. Most of the Christian population has fled Bethlehem because of persecution by Muslims. In Jordan Jews cannot be citizens. Where is the world’s condemnation of that?

    Kuwait and Jordan expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians – did anyone care? Arab nations forced 850,000 Jews who had lived in their countries for centuries to flee after 1948 – did anyone care?

    After World War II, Poland annexed 10% of historic Germany (East Prussia); Morocco controls the Western Sahara; Armenia has controlled 15% of neighboring Azerbaijan since 1994; Turkey has controlled half of Cyprus since its 1974 invasion; Russia has controlled the Kurile Islands off northern Japan for 63 years and China has occupied Tibet since 1950.

    Czechoslovakia expelled its Sudetenland Germans from their homes after World War II; the Poles expelled millions of Germans from East Prussia in 1945; thousands of Turkish Cypriots were displaced by Greek military forces in the 1960s while Turkish forces displaced thousands of Greek Cypriots from Northern Cyprus after their 1974-1976 war; 450,000 ethnic Chinese were expelled from Vietnam in 1978-1979; the Bangladeshis expelled over three million Hindus in 1974; 250,000 Georgians were displaced from Abkhazia between 1993 and 1998, not to mention more than 500,000 ethnic Russians in Chechnya who were displaced during the First Chechen War in 1994-1996 and more than 800,000 Kosovar Albanians who were expelled from Kosovo in 1998-1999.

    Where are the voices demanding that all those refugees be given back their land or “compensated” – doesn’t anyone care? The only time anyone cares is when JEWS are in Israel. Arabs have 21 states in the Middle East, Jews have ONE. But even that is one too many for the anti-Semites of the world.

    Your only regret may be that Edgar Bronfman and Alan Dershowitz were not among Madoff’s preferred clients. My wish for you is that you find yourself personally involved with Muslim terrorists at some point in your life. Try explaining to them that you are a friend of the Palestinians, that you have a whole website devoted to condemning Israelis and Jews. See if you can get those words out before they slice your head off. You are a fool.

  89. Doug said on December 31st, 2008 at 12:48am #

    Bozh, I don’t know the exact numbers of each nationality. About 55 million people died in WWII. Jews would have us believe that their deaths were the sole cause of the war and the only deaths worth worrying about.

    JR, that’s a straw-man argument. Whenever Jews are criticized, you people complain about so-called “anti-semitism” if the article does not mention every single other problem in the world, as well. However, when others are criticized, such as when the Germans are singled out, you don’t complain that Jewish racism is not also included in the article, do you? Lie, obfuscate, disseminate, distract. That’s how you people deal with criticism. While I don’t believe the Holocaust(tm) ever actually occurred, if it was proved to me that it happened, I could certainly understand the reasons.

  90. Joe Pepper said on December 31st, 2008 at 7:57am #

    Hey guys I just finished my fifth beer for the Jets loss here in NY. But anyways whats this non sense bashing jews here? What does jews have to do with maddoff? maddoff was no practicing jew ? Maddoff stole less from the gentile goy and more from the rich jews…Maddoff is a crook and a big crook . Dont you guys understand that jews are smart and I envy jews for that. If Maddoff would have been a gentile goy her would have stolen maybee gas at the pump or jumped the turnstile or beat up his wife after a jets game loss, Maddoff is a crook and should be punished for being a crook

  91. Tree said on December 31st, 2008 at 8:12am #

    lol

  92. John J. said on January 1st, 2009 at 11:24am #

    If Madoff scammed the evil Zionists of some of their money.

    I say good. It is a good thing indeed.

  93. JR said on January 1st, 2009 at 3:34pm #

    “Doug”. You say: “While I don’t believe the Holocaust(tm) ever actually occurred, if it was proved to me that it happened, I could certainly understand the reasons”. That statement – both your denial of the Holocaust and your “understanding of the reasons” – invalidates anything else you say. You show yourself to be just another bigot. It’s sad to read these comments – very few facts, very few intelligent sentences – mostly statements like yours brimming with poisonous hatred.

  94. bozh said on January 1st, 2009 at 4:04pm #

    susie,
    yes in jasenovac, it is now estimated that 80td serbs, 30td croats, and 20? jews perished.
    as for serbs being israelis, i’d say yes. neither the nonsemitic people nor serbs can get along w. any folk.

    serbs were only interested in establishing greater serbia; they wanted a big chunk of croatia; they got not an inch.

    as for serb gratitude for german, wallachian, austrian, slovenian, hungarian, croatian, czech, slovak, romanian two-century warfare for also serb emancipation from ottoman suzerainty, we got hatred.

    yes we bled for ca 300 yrs while serbia remained for 500 yrs most peacefull land in entire europe.

    and as for euros w. judaic faith, they r in some aspects just like the nazis. thnx

  95. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 4:19pm #

    What is this with the Holocaust? What do you think is happening right NOW, JR. How many civilian non-Jews were killed in the Holocaust? How many did the Europeans kill to take over the Americas? How many Iraqis have died due to US occupation? How many Southeast Asians due to the US invasion, how many Serbs, how many Armanians? How many Central Americans were slaughtered (skin ripped off their bones) by the US sponsored death squads? Do you know the NUMBERS, JR?

    Are we to go on and on about the Holocaust and denying it? Should we have televised repeatedly the crimes against humanity that go unmentioned as we once again every other week show how the Jews were slaughtered, while today TODAY, we stand by silently as Israelis who use this same Holocaust, slaughter Palestinians and two years ago it was Lebanese and before that it was Palestinians and then Lebanese and on and on and on… enough of the f$cking Holocaust. The Holocaust has caused more deaths then it has prevented. The result of the Holocaust, JR, were the Nuremburg trials and the result of those trials was international law and the Charter of the UN and ISRAEL with its theocracy and settlers, has broken EVERYONE of those laws, the very laws that came from the concentration camps.

    What in god’s name ARE you talking about when you call anyone a bigot, JR? The bigots are the murderers TODAY who are killing CHILDREN IN GAZA!!!

    GET IT?

  96. Tree said on January 1st, 2009 at 5:19pm #

    I don’t like speaking for others and I don’t agree with everything JR has posted here but this is too much for me.
    Doug regularly spews his ignorance and hatred here, it’s clear to me he’s obsessed with the Holocaust and Jews, as are others who post here.
    Finally, someone calls him on it and he’s slammed for it, as if because he calls Doug on his hatred he’s denying all the other tragedies humans have imposed on one another.
    JR posted a pretty good summation of the hatred and intolerance that occurs around the world. He even included some himself with his wish that certain people meet up with Muslim terrorists.

    Of course the editors have every right to post articles about Palestine and it’s a very important issue but it does seem to be to the exclusion of other issues occurring in the world and it definitely encourages the half-cracked anti-Semites to post crap like there was no Holocaust and all Jews are evil. Small minds.
    I’m all for free speech, people can say whatever they want, but that doesn’t mean it should go unchallenged.
    I agree, the portrayal of history is unbalanced and the mass media obsesses over the Holocaust in Europe but that shouldn’t take away from the suffering that occurred during that time. It speaks more to how absolutely lame the mass media is, and how they insist on telling the same stories over and over again. This works for those who are asleep and want to stay asleep. It seems people posting here buy a lot of it, too.
    I’ve met Holocaust survivors and their children, I grew up with a woman who was in a Japanese internment camp. And you know what? They obsessed less about that stuff than the people who comment here.

    What’s occurring in Gaza is horrible. Who here is standing by silently? No I. But it doesn’t matter anyway because I can’t stop it nor can any of the rest of you. But as long as people are hung up on things like Jews and Arabs and who killed more people and religions and borders, nothing will get solved and the same trauma will be inflicted over and over again.
    Excuse the interruption, please go back to obsessing over numbers of dead and each wishing the other would die a horrible death at the hands of ___(fill in the blank with the race of your choice).

  97. JR said on January 1st, 2009 at 5:35pm #

    Max Shields. Do you realize how foolish you sound? “Israel with its theocracy”? The 21 Arab states are all theocracies. Even worse many of them don’t permit the practice of any religion other than Islam. Do you know that according to Islam you are an apostate if you convert from Islam to another religion? And that in most Middle East theocracies apostasy is punishable by death? Israel permits and protects all religions – Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu, Baha’i, etc. Do you read English? Saudi Arabia doesn’t permit Jews to even enter the country, and worshipping Christ is punishable by death. In Egypt, the Christian Copts are persecuted. Most of the Christian population has fled Bethlehem because of persecution by Muslims. In Jordan Jews cannot be citizens, but in Israel Arabs are full citizens. But don’t bother to explain. I understand – no matter what happens it’s still the Jews. It’s not Hamas whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel, who teaches its schoolchildren to kill Jews so they can be martyrs for Islam, who lobs 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel – nope they’re not the problem. It wasn’t Hizbollah who slipped over the border into Israel and captured Israeli soldiers (and btw returned them dead). Nope they’re not the problem. Do you also believe that the Jews caused WW1 and WW2 and the Great Depression and bombed the WTC on 9-11 and caused the economic collapse in 2008? Only 17 million Jews and they run the world. Amazing. Jews are so very powerful aren’t they? You must really be pissed. Not only at Jews – but at the US. Greatest country in the world – people from all over the world risk their lives every day to get into the US because of its freedom and opportunities. The US saved millions of people from horrendous lives by defeating fascism and causing the fall of the Soviet Union; the US govt and US corporations distribute more foreign aid than any other nation – but all you can talk about is the death and destruction. Wow – I wonder why you’re still here. Maybe you’d like to live in Gaza or Iran – or how about Zimbabwe or Sudan? Now those must be great places to live – none of those awful Jews.

  98. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 5:43pm #

    tree (?), what the hell are you talking about? Are you able to read what I said and understand it. Apparently not. My fault…your lack of comprehension is all my fault. I apologize.

    My point was not about in “inbalance” it was about a pathology that has led to the murder of thousands upon thousands in the ME.

    When was the last time you saw a story about how the Palestinians were pushed out of their land and visuals of the wall that is being contructed around the check points on PBS? How’s never. Now let’s talk about the number of times the Holocaust was shown (a Holocaust owned by only one people, mind you…)? I’ve lost count.

    Do you know what the Holocaust is used for – read Finkelstein’ s “The Holocaust Industry” http://www.serendipity.li/more/finkel.html.

    When you’re finished we’ll “talk”.

  99. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 6:00pm #

    Who cares whether Islam this or that. My point is that Israel has tried to shield itself (as you seem to be doing here) from all illegal acts by playing the Holocaust and anti-semitic card.

    But you go further. You are argue my miscontruing my points by showing your true colors as an Islamophile.

    Right now there are civilians, children, young and old, dying in Gaza and you chose to come on defending Israel with your Islamophobic rantings.

    And tree, who seems to have lost his sense of proportion comes to your bigoted defense. A joke, JR. You’re a cartoon, sonny.

  100. JR said on January 1st, 2009 at 6:07pm #

    Max Shields. I’ve read Finklestein – so now I see where you get your opinions from. Finklestein hides his anti-Semitism behind the fact that his parents were Holocaust survivors. Here’s a question. When Israel withdrew from Gaza the settlers had a lucrative greenhouse flower and fruit industry, which they were going to dismantle. A philanthropic Jew bought all the greenhouses from Israel for $15,000 and gave them (no charge) to the Palestinians so that they could continue the lucrative industry. Do you know what the Palestinians did with them? They tore them down, destroyed them. Smart, huh? And then they cried poverty – they need more aid. Do you know why they need more aid – because Hamas spends all the money it gets on weapons and pay for its militant operatives. Arafat did the same – and built big houses for his cohorts and kept his wife in Paris to boot on the donated money. Did it ever occur to you that if the Palestinians stopped sending their suicide bombers into Israel, Israel wouldn’t have had to build that wall? That if Hamas stopped importing weapons and lobbing rockets Israel wouldn’t blockade it? But I guess not. BTW – since we’re recommending reading – try the very exactingly documented “From Time Immemorial” by Joan Peters – non-Jew, Middle East journalist. You might find yourself surprised.

  101. Tree said on January 1st, 2009 at 6:27pm #

    Am I missing something?? Max, you write “When was the last time you saw a story about how the Palestinians were pushed out of their land and visuals of the wall that is being contructed around the check points on PBS? How’s never. Now let’s talk about the number of times the Holocaust was shown (a Holocaust owned by only one people, mind you…)? I’ve lost count.”

    I wrote “I agree, the portrayal of history is unbalanced and the mass media obsesses over the Holocaust in Europe but that shouldn’t take away from the suffering that occurred during that time. It speaks more to how absolutely lame the mass media is, and how they insist on telling the same stories over and over again. This works for those who are asleep and want to stay asleep. It seems people posting here buy a lot of it, too.”

    Where’s the misunderstanding there??

    Did I miss something JR posted earlier? I also wrote I don’t agree with everything he wrote but he had some good points. But seriously, did I miss some huge whopper of a comment that you think I should know?
    Obviously, I’m not supporting the policies of the Israeli military and gov’t. There is no rationale for the ghetto-ization of Gaza. But at the same time, I don’t support the anti-Semitism and Holocaust denials I read here.

    I barely understand your second comment, Max but the only reason I came to JR’s defense is because of what I wrote earlier about JR speaking out against Doug. Sheesh. This is getting too ridiculous but I’d like to figure out what happened.

  102. The Angry Peasant said on January 1st, 2009 at 6:35pm #

    I’ve been reading the comments here and I must say I thought JR was making some good points until he started praising the U.S. “Greatest country in the world?” Are you kidding me? Yes, I feel absolutely blessed to live in a country that tells me, “You don’t matter. Work your wage-slave job and shut up. Oh, you haven’t been to a doctor in twenty years? Not our problem. Can’t pay your rent? Feed your kids? Get an education? Also not our concern. We have the billionaires to think about.”
    Screw America, and its little snot-nosed ward, Israel. Maybe the Islamic countries are inhuman in many of their policies. But so is the U.S., just in a different way.

  103. giorgio said on January 1st, 2009 at 6:38pm #

    JR,
    I must admit you my first great laugh of the new year….but since you are dishing out reading recommendations, here is also a very good one:
    The SYNAGOGUE of SATAN by Andrew C Hitchcock
    free download at http://www.iamthewitness.com

    enjoy it.

  104. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 6:47pm #

    JR is your basic zionist racist. Pretty simple to see that. He doesn’t hide (though he may deny the label(s)).

    As far as Holocaust denying, tree, in the scheme of things there is no getting away from the Holocaust. It’s not about denying, its about how it’s been used. That there are those who think the numbers of Jews killed is overstated to give it maximum effect is something I have not studied. Millions of civilians died in WWII. Non-Jewish Pols were in those concentration camps as well as Catholics and others.

    Finkelstein (who were victims of the concentration camps) raises the issue which I think is undeniable – the Holocaust is not about acknowleging atrocities to humans by humans, but as if it’s a special case because of those who died some were Jews. There is an ownership of persecution that has been marketed and used to shield those (along with the corrupted use fo the term anti-semite) who have laid claim to land of Palestine. It is done systematically and flagrantly. It is used to shut down debate in the US – sponsor of Israel military aggression, without which there would be no Israel. The reason why, in Israel, there is more “open” talk then here, is because Israel’s entire existence is totally dependent upon US funding.

    The marketing of the Holocaust has created an industry and the basis for most of the twisted pathological relationship that exists in between US policy regarding “hands off” and Israel. This is not a trivial matter, but a psychological ploy.

    If you don’t get it, you don’t get it.

  105. The Angry Peasant said on January 1st, 2009 at 7:07pm #

    I understand what Max is saying. This is what so easily led the United Nations to grant Israel its land without question, and influenced the United States to back Israel’s claim to that land, no matter what. The subconscious psychological undercurrents of America’s guilt over “allowing” the Holocaust to happen or not stopping it soon enough was also what allowed AIPAC to so rapidly grow into the most powerful political lobby here and abroad.

    The Holocaust is drilled into our heads from the time we’re small children, as if no human atrocity ever came close in sheer magnitude. My five year-old son has already been taught about Israel in Kindergarten; how it’s a great country. The other day he came home with a Star of David sticker on his shirt and a dreidel. He was also informed of the existence of Japan, China, France, and England. Not surprisingly, Jordan or Iran never came up.

    If one can see past the haze of lies and misdirections we face continuously in this country, a clearer picture can be seen. Yes, the Holocaust was horrible, but it has long been marketed so we’ll ignore all the horror Israel wreaks on the Palestinians.

  106. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 7:17pm #

    The Angry Peasant
    Bingo!

  107. Tree said on January 1st, 2009 at 7:20pm #

    Max, first and most importantly, I’m a she, not a he.

    It’s not that I don’t get it. I get a lot of it. But what you just laid out in your last comment has been lacking from others’ when it comes to anti-Jewish comments and Holocaust denials.
    I can agree with a lot if not all of what you just wrote, but when people put Jew in quotes and not just deny the Holocaust but write, “While I don’t believe the Holocaust(tm) ever actually occurred, if it was proved to me that it happened, I could certainly understand the reasons”. then I have a problem.
    Hating Jews will not change the world for the better and it won’t get Israel out of Palestine, that’s for damn sure.

    As for Finkelstein, he’s new to me. I’m reading it but if you expect me to read a couple of web pages and jump on board, forget it. He may be correct in everything he writes but I would definitely need to look into him a lot more thoroughly.

    Yes, JR has posted things I don’t agree with, even more so since I posted that comment. It seems he believes the lies of the mass media, to put it simply.

    As an aside, I remember in my museum studies classes having to watch a gut wrenching documentary on the Holocaust in order to study the Holocaust Museum in DC. We also learned about Georg Gustav Heye whose huge collection is now the Native American museum in DC. Of course, no mention was made of the Native American Holocaust and no gut wrenching documentary was shown, instead one of how he amassed his huge collection (questionably). Most people aren’t even aware of what they are doing, they never even question it.

  108. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 7:46pm #

    Tree (sorry about the gender mix up). Finkelstein has dared, as the son of two of those Holocaust victims, to call out those who have used the Holocaust to shield them while they thrust their own version of atrocities on another people – the Palestinians.

    I am not trying to make broad, sweeping statements about the Holocaust, except that it is not what happened then, but what it is being used for NOW that is the central issue.

    I was not speaking in support of anyone who was denying the Holocaust happened, but it has been paraded out not as one of many atrocities in the history of human-kind but as THE most imp0rtant atrocity. (Have you followed the attempt by Holocaust Memorial to make sure that Armanian Holocaust will not see the light of day in Boston?) When WWII was over and Jews migrated to other places such as UK, little was said about the Holocaust. It was something that happened to many. It was not singled out as one group of people’s story.

    But over time, it has become a marketing devise. It has been corrupted and used to keep Israeli critics at bay. And it is that use which has caused death and destruction..with impunity.

  109. Tree said on January 1st, 2009 at 7:55pm #

    I clearly misunderstood the intent of your post, Max. Sorry for all the hassle over that.
    I do feel we’re on the same page, so to speak.
    I hadn’t heard about what’s going on in Boston. Very disappointing. I grew up in that area and I remember a very large Armenian population. Dueling Holocaust Memorials. It would be amusing if it wasn’t so awful.
    Considering how many times people have tried to blow up the Holocaust Memorial in Boston, you’d think Jews would be relieved to have an alternative out there.

  110. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 8:12pm #

    Tree, I have no issue with anyone’s memorial as long as it’s not at the expense of someone else.

    That said, I want to clarify: Many Jews in the Boston area were in solidarity with the Armanians in terms of their right to have a Holocaust memorial. It was the zionist Anti-Defamation League (ADL) National Director Abraham Foxman who has tried to put a stop to it.

    Max

  111. The Angry Peasant said on January 1st, 2009 at 8:42pm #

    The Anti-Defamation League, like AIPAC itself, has been a painful thorn in the sides of many progressive causes and arab activist groups for the past few decades. Incidentally, you probably know this already, but Wolf Blitzer formerly wrote for AIPAC’s Near East Report and The Jerusalem Post. In fact, Blitzer was the journalist who was given the textual transcript of Ronald Reagan’s phone call to AIPAC Director Thomas A. Dine, thanking him profusely for his “assistance” in the War Powers Act resolution in 1984, which involved the United States’ establishing a Marine garrison in Lebanon after Israel’s aggression there. After this was made public, a long-lasting love affair between the Reagan administration (and every successive one) and AIPAC blossomed. Just interesting to think about next time you might lower your news-gathering standards and watch CNN.

  112. Shabnam said on January 1st, 2009 at 8:54pm #

    Gypsies in WWII were victims like other groups. More than 400,000 of them were killed but they are not allowed to have a museum to prove ‘uniqueness’ of Jewish experience. The following is taken from
    “Holocaust Industry” by Norman Finklestein:

    {Multiple motives lurked behind the museum’s marginalizing of the Gypsy genocide.
    First: one simply couldn’t compare the loss of Gypsy and Jewish life. Ridiculing the call for Gypsy representation on the US holocaust Memorial Council as ‘cockamamie,’ executive director Rabbi Seymour Siegel doubted whether Gypsies even “existed” as a people: “There should be some recognition or acknowledgment of the gypsy people .. if there is such a thing.”
    Second: acknowledging the Gypsy genocide meant the loss of an exclusive Jewish franchise over The Holocaust, with a commensurate loss of Jewish ‘moral capital.’
    Third: if the Nazis persecuted Gypsies and Jews alike, the dogma that The Holocaust marked the climax of a millennial Gentile hatred of Jews was clearly untenable. Likewise, if Gentile envy spurred the Jewish genocide, did envy also spur the Gypsy genocide? In the museum’s permanent exhibition, non-Jewish victims of Nazism receive only token recognition.
    Finally, the Holocaust museum’s political agenda has also been shaped by the Israel-Palestine conflict. Before serving as the museum’s director, Walter Reich wrote a paean to Joan Peters’s fraudulent From Time Immemorial, which claimed that Palestine was literally empty before Zionist colonization. Under State Department pressure, Reich was forced to resign after refusing to invite Yasir Arafat, now a compliant American ally, to visit the museum.}

    People should make an effort to bring books about genocide of other groups to Public Libraries for others to get familiar with genocide of other groups. Sometimes there is pro Zionist librarian who is in the position of ordering books and it gets very difficult to bring books about other genocide. Somebody said: it took him one year to bring a book about Iranian genocide in WWI where left, 8 – 10 millions, dead due to policy of British occupying forces in Iran where diverted Iranian crops to feed British army and left Iranians to die out of hunger.
    They easily buy 3 copies of Joan Rivers’s biography but it takes more than a year for “The Great Famine and Genocide in Persia, 1917-1919 by Mohammad Gholi Majd to come to the library.

  113. The Angry Peasant said on January 1st, 2009 at 9:01pm #

    And it goes to show, once again, how the pro-zionist United States likes to make its own history and delete any occurences that would reflect poorly on itself or its allies/wards.

  114. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 1st, 2009 at 10:56pm #

    Although Elie WIESEL is today the poster-boy of the “Holocaust,” he clearly “chose” to collaborate with the Nazis in January 1945 rather than be “liberated” by Soviet troops advancing on Auschwitz. Both he and his father trekked west with the Nazis in a terrible winter on foot by their own choice and assisted the Nazis during the last months of the war. It is all spelled out in his own words in his famous book “Night” on page 78 of the Bantam paperback edition, 1960.

    Some of Wiesel’s exact words in “Night” are:

    “The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. ‘Well, what shall we do, father?’ He was silent. ‘Let’s be evacuated with the others,’ I told him.”

    Elie’s tale in this regard is corroborated by other “survivor” accounts including that of Primo Levi. In Levi’s book Survival in Auschwitz, we have his words for January 17th, 1945:

    “It was not a question of reasoning: I would probably also have followed the instinct of the flock if I had not felt so weak: fear is supremely contagious, and its immediate reaction is to make one try to run away.”

    But Elie moved on, even to fenagle for himself a Nobel Peace Prize and publicly scold Ronald Reagan for daring to visit the graves of the SS “killers,” the same people he had chosen to collaborate with and go west with in 1945. And now, this Madoff thing–it’s all so confusing! Oye-veh!

  115. JR said on January 2nd, 2009 at 12:41pm #

    Am I am the only one in this posting group that thinks it is beyond ridiculous to accuse Elie Wiesel of “collaborating” with the Nazis because he chose to march West rather than wait to be liberated by the Soviets. The Soviets, as many might recall had no fondness for Jews and many Jews fled the pogroms of Russia – and that fear may well have been his father’s motivation for the decision. I must also be the only one in the group who sees that underlying most of the complaints about “too much attention to the Holocaust” is anti-Semitism – those Jews again – they get everything. Re the Armenian Holocaust Memorial, I don’t know anything about what is going on in Boston. I know that the US has not supported the Armenian efforts to get greater recognition for it mostly out of not wanting to offend the one Muslim country that is our semi ally (Turkey). It isn’t those efforts that I criticize, but the venom that comes out around “Jew” whenever Holocaust comes up. Am I a racist – no – and btw – I’m not a “he” either. Defending Jews against hatred and stupidity like “the children of Satan declared war on Hitler and all he did was defend himself” or books like the “Synagogue of Satan”, doesn’t make me a racist. Re the “ghetto-ization of Gaza” – with the exception of Iran and Syria every Arab leader is blaming Hamas for the conditions in Gaza. Do we expect that Israel should give Hamas better opportunities to attack? Stop sending suicide bombers and rockets and mortars into Israel and Israel will “de-ghetto-ize” Gaza. But I guess it’s easier for this group to keep whipping Israel and the US for supporting Israel. And speaking of the US – is the US perfect – no – can we do better – yes – but despite that there is still no other country that offers the opportunities we have here. That is why I said we live in the greatest country in the world, which I said CLEARLY meant the country with the most freedom and opportunity. How many immigrants are sneaking into China, Russia, Mexico (except to get to the US), or any Middle East country? Immigrants come here, work two and three jobs a day, go to night school to better themselves and send their children to college to become professionals. Why is it that immigrants who get to the US bless their good fortune for being here, while The Angry Peasant whines that he has to work at a “wage-slave job”? Apparently this has been the case for 20 years since he says that’s how long it’s been since he saw a doctor. If he’s in a low-paying, dead- end job, he needs to learn a skill that will pay him better wages, if he needs more education, he needs to look for scholarships or work a second job to save up for it. No country is perfect, but I don’t see many Americans emigrating to other countries. And lastly – to compare the inhumanity of countries that routinely execute homosexuals, sanction honor killings and have zero freedom of speech or religion to the “inhumanity of the US” because it doesn’t provide a better job for the The Angry Peasant is beyond naive. Does he think any of those countries will provide him with a better job, medical care, housing, etc?

  116. Max Shields said on January 2nd, 2009 at 12:54pm #

    JR

    Whether you know it or not your are NOT defending Jews. You ARE defending Zionism. The latter is an ideology which has become the “righteous” arm of violence in the Middle East. Elie Wiesel has supported this violence time and again.

    As far as the Armanian Holocaust and Boston – it’s available if you search Armanian Holocaust Boston Foxman. Then read and learn. It is not an indictment on Jews, to the contrary it is an indictment on Zionism.

    So, stop swatting at strawmen and feigning defense for Jews, when in fact, your flagrent attacks on Arabs and Islam show you for the Zionist you seem to be.

    As far as here, DV, you charade won’t fly.

  117. Tree said on January 2nd, 2009 at 1:45pm #

    Sorry if I referred to you as a male, JR. No, you’re not the only one who thinks that’s ridiculous. However, Wiesel’s behavior since WWII has hardly been that of a kind, compassionate citizen of the world. He has proven himself to be extremely anti-Arab. But to judge anyone for what they did after surviving something like Auschwitz is despicable. And by the way, Friedrich, it’s “Oy vey. ” At least learn the culture before you spit on it.

    But JR, your defense of Israel is ridiculous, too. You seem to blind yourself by choice as to what’s really happening and only see what you want to see.
    I’d love to see how long you’d last under the conditions the Palestinians have forced on them by Israel before you broke down and started shooting rockets.
    Immigrants move from one country to the next, America is hardly the ultimate destination for world citizens. Many people emigrate to China, Dubai, Russia and many other countries every day. Also, there are quite a few illegal immigrants in Mexico and they’re American. In fact, Americans emigrate to other countries all the time. Many countries not only offer what America offers, but offer more. So, you may want to do some more research on that instead of reaching for the easy, knee-jerk patriotism argument. Otherwise, you just come off as naive and whiny.

  118. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 2nd, 2009 at 2:50pm #

    Obviously, I am upsetting some of the chosen ones with my facts about Elie and his pro-Nazi collaboration during World War 2.

    The Soviets were extremely protective of Jews during nearly all of Stalin’s reign and benefited enormously from the jewish atom spies in the US, for example. No doubt, in the generally post-war anti-communist west, such facts are so inconvenient for jews.

    In any event, regardless of how pro- or anti-jewish one wants to believe the Soviets really were–no one has ever accused the Soviets of anything like the assembly line, mass murders of thousands upon thousands of Jews which were supposedly occurring almost every day at Auschwitz. Assembly line mass murders of goyim occurred rather often in the Soviet Union–Polish officers, for example–but, never of Jews. If there were any truth to those holocaust tales–Elie, right there in the very worst of it–would have known all about it and would have certainly run the other way, even toward the Soviets. But Elie went west the Nazis and the SS, instead. Obviously, the “holocaust” is a hoax and for many other good reasons as well.

  119. Tree said on January 2nd, 2009 at 3:07pm #

    Friedrich, you’re a liar and your head is so firmly up your ass it’ll never see light again.

    One can support Palestinians and stand up to all the lies without hating Jews and twisting history.

    Such small, petty minds here.

  120. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 2nd, 2009 at 3:16pm #

    Well–well, Mr. Tree, perhaps you would care to explain to me and our vast audience just why you think I am “a liar.”

    Please do try to use some rational arguments and evidence for a change.

  121. Tree said on January 2nd, 2009 at 3:30pm #

    Jesus Christ, I don’t have a penis! For the last time I’m not a man.

    Friedrich, to actually take the time to argue with a holocaust denier would not only require a massive drop in my IQ but would be a huge waste of my time and make me feel like I’d need a long shower afterward.
    You’re a liar and as far as I’m concerned, a major fucktard. Your version of history deserves no more attention than its received already.
    Now go beat off to a Leni Riefenstahl movie or something.

  122. JR said on January 2nd, 2009 at 3:52pm #

    I agree – there is no sense at all in arguing with Holocaust deniers. After all of the information/photos/first person accounts by survivors and Nazis that is available – anyone who denies the Holocaust is hopelessly poisoned by hatred. Re – Stalin being “protective of Jews” – it is not even worth a response. Nor is it worth trying to explain why a man who had spent years in Holocaust conditions might not have made the most rational decisions.

    Re Anti-Zionism vs. anti- Semitism: This is a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King:

    You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews; you are merely ‘anti-Zionist.’ And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God’s green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews. “Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so. Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land”.

    In agreement with Dr. King I believe that for the most part “anti-Zionism” is the more modern acceptable version of “anti-Semitism”. And in fact if you read through all these posts you will see venomous references to Jews mixed in with most criticisms of Israel or Zionism.

    But leaving that argument aside – what is wrong with “Zionism” – the desire to have a Jewish state? Despite it being a Jewish state, Israel has complete freedom of religion and over one million Muslims are Israeli citizens (with representation in the Knesset). There are 21 Muslim states. There is almost no freedom of religion in those states. Many forbid citizenship to non-Muslims. Why is it that I don’t hear any complaints that these states are “Muslim”? Aren’t Jews entitled to ONE TINY state?

    At the end of WW1 when the Allies oversaw the break-up of the Ottoman Empire, Arabs petitioned to have independent states and Jews petitioned to have an independent state. A number of “mandates” were created and administered by the Allies until independence was granted. Israel was eventually created out of the Palestine mandate according to the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations.

    Let’s talk about that for a moment. The current area occupied by the Palestinians and Jews is 20% of the original mandate. Do you know who has the other 80%? Jordan. Hussein, the Sheik of Mecca was overthrown in Saudi Arabia by the Ibn ben Saud family. In 1922, to reward Hussein for having supported the Allies in WW1, Churchill lopped off 80% of the Palestine mandate and gave it to Hussein (it was called “Transjordan”). What right does a Saudi sheik have to land in Palestine? But no one ever questions that – in fact few people know it.
    Therein lies a good bit of today’s problem. Now the Arabs and the Jews had to share a very small piece of land.

    It is also a mistake to think that the impetus for Arab violence originated with the creation of an Israeli state. It originated well before. In 1929, the Arabs slaughtered a number of the Jews in Hebron (a city populated by Jews for 2000 years) and Britain then banned all Jews from Hebron to mollify the Arabs. This violence continued through the early 30’s and in 1936 the Arabs threatened even more violence if Britain did not cut off further immigration of Jews (which they did, leaving European Jews no further chance to escape being murdered by Hitler).

    There are those who say that everything west of the Jordan River (about 1/3 of the original mandate) should all belong to Israel and the Palestinians should have had everything east of the Jordan. But, as I said – that was given to Hussein and called Transjordan. In fact the majority of the population of Jordan today is Palestinian. In any case, the UN partitioned the remaining 20% of the mandate giving 55% to Israel (about 40% of which was arid desert).

    This was also done in other cases where there were competing claims, or populations that could not co-exist. India was partitioned into India and Pakistan, and then Pakistan itself was partitioned into Pakistan and East Pakistan (now Bangladesh). The populations for the most part transferred from one territory to the other on the basis of religion. Why is there no complaint about those transfers? The only complaint we hear is about “Zionists” stealing Palestinian land.

    The bottom line is that the Arabs refused to accept the partition of the land, refused (and still refuse) to recognize Israel and continually attacked (and still do) Israel.

    It is hard for me to understand those who cannot see that the misery the Palestinians suffer has been brought about by the Arab political manipulation aimed at dismantling Israel, and Israel’s need for protection against that. What is the purpose of the Israeli blockade of the Palestinians in Gaza? To prevent weapons from reaching Hamas and to pressure Hamas to end their attacks. BTW – Egypt is no better – they have Gaza fenced in on the other border and they too refuse to open it (but again – no one complains about the Egyptian blockade – just the “Zionist blockade”).

    It is in the Israeli interests to have a stable, prosperous population living alongside them. Prior to 2000 many, if not most, West Bank and Gaza Palestinians worked in Israel and the territories had the highest standard of living of any non-oil producing Middle East nation. That ended with the Intifada, the resumption of deadly attacks on Israelis and Israel’s need to keep them potential attackers out of Israel.

    When the Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005 a Jewish philanthropist purchased the lucrative settler greenhouses that Israel would have dismantled and gave them free of charge to Gaza for Palestinians to start their own fruit and flower industry. Do you know what the Palestinians did with them? Along with the “Zionist synagogues”, they tore them down, burnt them. So who is to blame for Palestinians not having that industry? Surely not Israel. Nor is Israel to blame for the fact that the Palestinian leadership, whether it was Fatah or Hamas, took the majority of the aid money for themselves – either personally or for weapons purchase. That, not Israel, is why the Palestinians live in misery.

    Now back to the US – I’m sorry you think I am “whiny” because I am proud of the US and happy to live here. Yes, there is immigration into other countries – but not on the scale of immigration into the US. About 4 million Americans live abroad. One million of those (1% of the population) live in Mexico – the majority of them recent retirees who live there because the cost of living is cheaper. Is there any comparison to the number of Mexicans who live here – which represent somewhere between 10 and 20% of our population – or in fact immigrants from other countries? But exactly how many live here or there was not the point. The point was that as imperfect as the US may be – it is still a nation that offers the greatest freedom and opportunity. And the overwhelming number of immigrants from other nations choose the US because of that. It is also the nation that provides the most foreign aid through the govt and private corporations. I object to those who can ONLY see the terrible things that the US did. Yes, the Vietnam War was terrible – but have you ever spoken to any Vietnamese who were left there after the war? They do not hate the US. They hate the North Vietnamese who murdered over a million South Vietnamese and imprisoned most of the others for “re-education”. I object to those like The Angry Peasant who expect the US to provide them with a comfortable living. Is it fair that some people have so much and others so little? No. I’m on the low end of the scale so I don’t like it either. And that needs to be more fair – but there is a line over which equalizing this is destructive rather than constructive – as those who foresaw socialism as a utopia quickly found out. I recently read something by a Cuban émigré. He said “by the time we were all ‘equal’, we were all equally poor and miserable”. I believe that given human nature there is no incentive to produce if what you produce is taken from you to benefit everyone else. So there has to be a balance between taking care of the neediest people in society and allowing those who can generate wealth to keep what they generate.

  123. Max Shields said on January 2nd, 2009 at 3:54pm #

    The issue is one of proportion.

    There is little doubt that Jews died in German Concentration camps. That it was a Holocaust with the sole purpose of exterminating Jews is the real issue. That that Holocaust has been turned into a device for propaganda and marketing of a story which has as the only victim Jews is the issue. Tens of millions dead, but only one victim?

    I’ve yet to hear that there were not Pols, Catholics, Gypsies, homosexuals and many other non-Jews were were starved and slaughtered in the same concentration camps.

    That people like Foxman wish to silence the pain and anguish of others in order to promote his own version of the “single most vile act against humanity”, that there is no room in this zionist story for others is what is at issue.

    This is not about denying one over the other. To the contrary. That there are liers and thieves like Foxman does not mean that there were not Jews in those concentration camps.

    In the Nuremberg trials, it’s interesting to note one of those Nazis on trial as indicating forthrightly that he never had any issue with Jews, he did not consider himself an anti-semite and, in fact, had family who were Jewish. He never tried to hide his role, but he showed absolutely no sense of hatred toward Jews. His name was Eichmann, and the story comes from Hannah Arendt and she coined phrase the “banality of evil”.

    This banality of evil is not “owned” by a particular people. Today, we see it in Israel where murder has been taken up by the Israelis as a normal expectation. And to what end is this killing? The Palestinians are going nowhere. Palestinians willnever be “tamed” or bent to the “will” of the Zionists by endlessly dropping bombs. So, what is this all about? It is about savagery made normal within the pathology of Israel and its accomplice the government of the USA.

    This is not war. It is an attempt to annihilate or come as close to that has is possible. War happens when one state attacks another. This is asymmetrical murder. There is a “state”, Israel, with an army, a navy, an airforce and with hundreds of nuclear missiles as well as the latest in 21st century military technology provided by Uncle Sam. Then there are a people with a group of fighters who have joined to do what they can to struggle against all odds against a state with a full military industrial complex.

    Again, this is not war. This is pure and simply murder. It has the face of human beings with swatzikas – in the symbolic form of the Star of David and the Holy Grail – the Holocaust – to make their mission of crimes against humanity as banal as possible while the results are as profoundly murderous as any state can impose on a people.

  124. JR said on January 2nd, 2009 at 4:29pm #

    Max Shields:

    Re Foxman and the Armenian Holocaust – I am not able to find anything about Foxman preventing an Armenian Holocaust Memorial. I have found articles on his unwillingness to use the term “genocide” – for which he was severely criticized by many JEWISH groups and eventually bowed to that pressure and backed off his position. He is Jewish, he is head of the ADL – but it is clear he didn’t represent most of Jewish thinking.

    Re: others killed in the Holocaust – yes in actuality more “others” were killed than Jews. I don’t think Jews deny that. But I do believe the “Final Solution” – the plan to systematically eliminate ALL of one people – was never applied to any group except Jews.

    Re: Eichman – yes he apparently claimed he didn’t hate Jews and in some ways that makes his actions even worse (the banality of evil). He also reported to have said after being convicted: “Why me? Why not the local policemen…? Why me? Everybody killed the Jews. ”

    Re: Israel’s attempt to “annihilate” the Palestinians. Explain why Israel allows the Arab population to be citizens. Explain why prior to the Intifada of 2000 there was no fence between Israel and the West Bank and few border checkpoints. Explain why Israel waited 3 years and 6000 rocket attacks before taking this severe action against Hamas. Don’t you see the connection between attacks on Israel and Israel’s retaliation? If even the Arab nations recognize that Hamas is responsible for this, how come you don’t?

  125. Max Shields said on January 2nd, 2009 at 4:42pm #

    http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=1259

    The articles are all over the internet. I made it quite clear that there were Boston area Jews who came out in support of the Armanians.

    The point is Foxman isn’t simply another man in the street. He has significant power and uses it frequently. He represents the attempt to keep all other Holocaust victims out of the picture and to keep that picture with only ONE victim.

    Who is he to be saying that the Aramians should not call what happened to them a “holocaust” or a “genocide”? Why would he use his position to make such an issue and escalate it?

    There are few Arab/Palestinians who are “citizens”. They are NOT full citizens. Explain to me why?

    Look as far as who throw the first punch: that’s more than silly. Go back to early November for what started this use of Qassams. This is, for all intents and purposes an asymmetrical attack on civilians.

    Check points/walls…this is beyond rational – think about what your saying – it’s the banality of evil at work to think this is a normal way to deal with the people in the region. How did this all begin?

  126. Max Shields said on January 2nd, 2009 at 5:09pm #

    JR,

    Since you are interested in the stories of how we got where we are: are you aware of how Hamas became such a power in the area? Do you recall the PLO? Who initially promoted Hamas and for what reason?

    You see Israel policies are just too smart for their own good. When your heart is filled with avarice the results backfire – a kind of blowback. Israel/Zionists have created their enemies. It suits them; peace is just a word.

  127. bozh said on January 2nd, 2009 at 5:20pm #

    JR is doing what most people do: he enummerates many facts of peripheral nature that tell but fail to show or fail to prove that the socalled jews or ‘jews’ r innocent or good people.

    he speaks of one ‘jew’ being good to zagans; thus, ?all jews r good to pals. but pals being lesser valued, unruly, and stupid r at fault.

    he also says that all arab leaders blame hamas for isr killing 3-500 gazans but fails to mention the fact that pals r a canaanitic people or slightly arabic/judean; thus no kinship btw bought arab leaders and a nonarabic people.

    and canaanites were cursed by noah.
    the facts of great import that prove how brutal ‘jews’ r, r omitted.
    hadn’t hitler been right w. his own enumeration of carefully chosen facts? thnx

  128. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 2nd, 2009 at 5:20pm #

    The Palestinians want their Land BACK!

    That’s the basis for the entire Mid-East struggle. That is it in a nutshell

    And, it is their land! Neither the UN nor anyone else has the right to take it away from them. That land does not belong to Tree or JR or anyone else. The very idea that any Jew from Miami or Brooklyn or Warsaw can claim any piece of Palestine is simply insane.

  129. Tree said on January 2nd, 2009 at 5:33pm #

    In 2005, when Israel left Gaza, the greenhouses given to the Gazans by Jewish philanthropists were looted, 30% were damaged. At this time, Gaza was incredibly unsettled as Hamas was fighting for power with other groups. So JR, for the most part your reference is accurate but it’s a red herring and yet another example of how people think that the Palestinians must act perfectly all the time, no matter how badly they are treated.
    In 2008, I believe in November, Israel bulldozed Palestinian greenhouses and homes and businesses–just as they have done many times before. Why aren’t you speaking out against that?
    Israel did not wait 3 years before this latest brutal attack. For three years they have done everything in their power to destroy Gaza.
    Israel “allows” the Arab population to be citizens? How arrogant!

    Max, regarding your holocaust comments. I suppose the reason there hasn’t been any mention of the others killed in the Holocaust is because it’s out of context with the issues in this thread. The Nazis hated nearly everyone, even artists. Was killing Jews the sole purpose? No, but it was a major one. The concentration camps were the “final solution” to an anti-Jew agenda that had been going on for years. How that history is used now by some, not all, people is in many cases wrong.
    Look at Hurricane Katrina. Huge areas of the Gulf Coast were destroyed but how often do you hear about that? The media only covers New Orleans and fifty years from now it will still only be New Orleans. This is how the world works, they tell themselves the same stories over and over again.

  130. Max Shields said on January 2nd, 2009 at 5:51pm #

    Tree …and so Katrina is in the context of this thread? Hardly.

    You need to follow what’s being posted. I believe the posts on the Holocaust started well before I made any remarks here, and in fact, you were one of those posters.

    My suggestion: check your remarks before throwing out such nonsense.

  131. JR said on January 2nd, 2009 at 5:59pm #

    I give up – who am I talking to – Bozh who says “and canaanites were cursed by noah”. Berg who says “The Palestinians want their Land BACK!” – even though “their land” wasn’t theirs until 636 AD when Islam conquered Palestine and then they only held it for some 400 years after which it was held by a succession of rulers – Mamalukes, Ottomans until the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. Berg doesn’t know that Jews were the first rulers of Palestine when it was called Israel and Judea and that Jews ALWAYS lived in Palestine – including Hebron, Haifa and Jerusalem – he thinks all Israeli Jews came from Brooklyn, Miami and Warsaw. Berg also doesn’t know that when the West Bank was annexed by Jordan and Gaza held by Egypt from 1948 until 1967 the Palestinians didn’t want “their land BACK”???? Why – because they weren’t Palestinians, they were Arabs and so was Jordan and Egypt. It was only after Israel took over that they decided they were “Palestinians” and wanted “their land BACK”. And Mr. Berg – Israel did not take the land from the Palestinians – it took the land from Jordan and Egypt in a defensive war after it was attacked by Jordan, Syria and Egypt – so why should the “Palestinians” get it BACK?

    Max Shields – you are intelligent and you know history, but unless you agree with Berg that Israel has no right to be there – you are blinded by your belief that Israel is the aggressor. How is it that a country that was attacked three times in 25 years is the aggressor? Has Israel ever sent suicide bombers against Palestinians? Has Israel ever attacked without being attacked first? And yes, I know that Israel created Hamas by supporting it to counter the PLO – obviously foolish with the wisdom of hindsight – just as US support for Saddam against Iran was. But what in the world does that have to do with wanting or not wanting peace? Isn’t it clear that it is Hamas, and prior to that the PLO, that wants to annihilate Israel – not the other way around? I truly think your sympathies and anger should be reversed.

  132. Tree said on January 2nd, 2009 at 6:00pm #

    I used Katrina as an example of how selective people/the media are. Maybe you need to follow things.

  133. Tree said on January 2nd, 2009 at 6:02pm #

    JR, Israel hasn’t had to use suicide bombers because they have a nuclear armed military.

  134. JR said on January 2nd, 2009 at 6:17pm #

    “Tree” posted as I was writing my last comment. In response:

    Why does Israel bulldoze (inoperable) greenhouses and homes? You should find that out. Show me one action that Israel has taken that has NOT been a defensive action in response to being attacked and I will speak out against that. But I will not speak out against any action Israel takes to retaliate against or try to stop the attacks against it. All the Palestinians have to do is STOP the attacks – then Israel will not bulldoze their homes that cover tunnels, won’t blow up the mosques that store munitions etc. Yes, Israel did wait 3 years before this major attack. Prior to that it responded with very limited action. What action would you have Israel take in response to 6000 rockets and mortars? I think Israeli Arabs should be citizens – my only point in including that was to reply to the charges of “Zionism” that imply that there is inherently something bad about Jews having a Jewish state. I was comparing “Zionist Israel”, which permits people of all religions to be citizens, to the Muslim nations of the Middle East which refuse citizenship to non-Muslims, but which are never criticized for that.

  135. Tree said on January 2nd, 2009 at 6:25pm #

    I see no point in continuing this debate. I can’t even agree with people without it resulting in some kind of argument.

    As the armband on my coat reads, Vive Gaza.

  136. JR said on January 2nd, 2009 at 6:32pm #

    And Tree – if the reason Israel doesn’t use suicide bombers is that they have a nuclear armed military and if Israel truly wants to annihilate the Palestinians, then why haven’t they used their nuclear bombs to do that???

    How ludicrous when people portray the Palestinians as “poor defenseless freedom fighters” who have no option but to use suicide bombers to PURPOSELY blow up innocent civilians because they have no military like big bad Israel. It’s no more reasonable than claiming that the WTC terrorists and the Mumbai terrorists are freedom fighters.

  137. DavidG. said on January 2nd, 2009 at 6:44pm #

    Tree, long ago I made it a policy to never, never argue with pro-Israeli fanatics! They are deranged and their small minds are unable to be reached by using logic or presenting facts.

    You get full marks for trying though. Don’t be disheartened!

  138. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 2nd, 2009 at 6:47pm #

    Good Grief, we are talking to an imbecile and liar here. JR actually asked the following: “Has Israel ever attacked without being attacked first?”

    Hey JR, did you ever hear of the 1956 war where Britain and France and Israel jointly attacked Egypt? Did you ever hear of the 1967 war, the so-called “Six Day War,” when Israel launched a surprise air attack on Egypt which destroyed the Egyptian air force within hours? And that war against Lebanon supposedly in response to the shooting and wounding of an Israeli diplomat in London, that was an Israeli war of aggression also.

    Most Americans have been totally fooled by the jewish propaganda and the world will, unfortunately, have to pay a high price because of such madness

    The Palestinians want their Land BACK–and ultimately, they will get it back even if Israel is nuked to bring it back. Good riddance!

    Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com

  139. Hue Longer said on January 2nd, 2009 at 7:01pm #

    Yeah JR,

    I agree, Tree shouldn’t of mentioned a “nuclear armed military” as the Israelis have shown remarkable patience in not committing suicide by nuking their neighbors.

    You are conveniently ignoring what she implied however…Israel has war jets, bombers, tanks, helicopters, tractors, cluster bombs, chemicals, and billions of direct military aid. Take those away from Israel and give them to the dispossessed, cut off everything and set siege to Israel, and lets see if they pick up back pack bombs. In that scenario, my guess is they would perhaps not pretend it’s theirs so much if they could catch a flight out of town.

  140. Tree said on January 2nd, 2009 at 7:10pm #

    Lesson learned, DavidG.

  141. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 2nd, 2009 at 8:09pm #

    The following link is to an all-too-typical “holocaust survivor” tale with the exceptional feature that this time, the hoaxers got caught:

    http://my.earthlink.net/article/nat?guid=20081228/495707d0_3ca6_15526200812281780439642

    And then we have those stories by Mischa Defonseca, and Wilkomirski, and on, and on….

    Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com

  142. JR said on January 2nd, 2009 at 8:10pm #

    FREIDRICH – I didn’t get it before – why you use your Germanic middle name – now I do – you are advertising that you are just another NAZI.

    Let’s see now – “LITTLE Britain and France and BIG BAD Israel JOINTLY attacked Egypt” in 1956. Why blame just Israel – why aren’t the Palestinians bombing France and Britain? OK, leaving aside the fact that what they did was in response to Egypt nationalizing the Suez Canal and threatening to cut off world access, and that Israel immediately turned the territory it gained over to the UN – my question was about the Israeli first acts of aggression against PALESTINIANS – not EGYPT.

    And yes, Israel did act first against the Egyptian air force in 1967 – that was DAYS AFTER Syria, Egypt and Jordan massed their armies on Israel’s border. I don’t know how old you are, but I clearly remember the radio announcements from Egypt describing how their armies were massed on Israel’s border and how immanently they were going to wipe out Israel. And so Israel attacked first – what would you have had it do – wait to be attacked??? But I guess that is exactly what you would have wished for – since you are now hoping for a nuclear attack on Israel so you can say “good riddance” – proof (as is your reference to “Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com”) that Hitler and Eichmann live on forever in some hearts.

    Pay attention everyone to the roaches that come out of the woodwork when Jews are being discussed. You think you are having an intellectual discussion about “reasonable criticisms” of Israel, but eventually the truth comes out – “good riddance to the Jews”. As Dr. King said: anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.

    Jews have survived for 5,000 years – FREIDRICH – we will be here long after you and your sympathizers die, which should be none too soon for honorable people.

  143. Tree said on January 2nd, 2009 at 8:43pm #

    Rudolph Hoess testifies at Nuremburg Trials to gas chambers.
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1946Hoess.html

    4. Mass executions by gassing commenced during the summer 1941 and continued until fall 1944.1 personally supervised executions at Auschwitz until the first of December 1943 and know by reason of my continued duties in the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps WVHA2 that these mass executions continued as stated above. All mass executions by gassing took place under the direct order, supervision and responsibility of RSHA.31 received all orders for carrying out these mass executions directly from RSHA.

    The Palestine Chronicle and the video Wall of Hate:
    http://www.palestinechronicle.com/video_audio.php

  144. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 2nd, 2009 at 9:23pm #

    Well, at least we got something straight in JR’s tiny jewish mind. It was poooor little Israel that launched the 1967 war and not the bad Arabs or Palestinians.

    By the way, it is: FRIEDRICH not Freidrich.

    The facts about the Egyptian armies are that they were NOT massed at the Israeli border at all–and the Israelis have admitted that they knew perfectly well that Egypt was NOT about to attack them. Itzhak Rabin admitted that later on.

    But Israel also attacked the USS Liberty DELIBERATELY on June 8, 1967, murdering 34 Americans and wounding 174 others, and got away with it because Lyndon Johnson was a depraved coward and afraid the Israelis would reveal LBJ’s role in the assassination of JFK.

    Israel’s attacks on the Arab world in 1967 were carefully planned in advance–and that disaster for the Arabs has had grave consequences ever since. There is no peace anywhere in sight–only a bigger war, and probably thermo-nuclear. The moslems are not your Untermenschen.

    The Palestinians still want their land back, it is rightfully theirs, and they will ultimately have it back because they are morally far superior to your kind, JR. Stay in Brooklyn, JR. There is no future for your kind in Palestine. The Palestinians are descended from the Philistines who predated the Hebrews. They even endured the genocidal manics of the Old Testament.

    Learn even more at: http://www.nazigassings.com

  145. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 2nd, 2009 at 9:47pm #

    On another matter, the supposed “confession” of Rudolf Hoess discussed by Tree is worthless except as evidence for the depravity and brutality of his British, American and Jewish captors. That “confession was result of torture.

    Learn everything at http://www.nazigassings.com

  146. Hue Longer said on January 2nd, 2009 at 10:00pm #

    Mr. Berg,

    You say that LBJ being afraid of his role in the JFK assassination being revealed is why the Liberty was covered up? Why would you make this leap and how does speculating on this add to the fact that Israel did attack the Liberty? You are inviting circumstantial ad hominem to dismiss any valid points you may have as well as engaging in ad hominem by saying “tiny Jewish mind”. Do you realize that people you claim to be against often present discussion like this in forums like this in attempts to ruin discourse through this method?

  147. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 2nd, 2009 at 10:18pm #

    That the Israelis deliberately attacked the USS Liberty is surprising and stunning. But that the attack and its nature should have been covered up by orders from LBJ is even more stunning.

    Read up on the attack. LBJ was scared and the Israelis knew how to scare him. They had, no doubt, been given all the info they needed about the Kennedy assassination from people like Cord Meyer who was jewish and who also hated JFK. Meyer was told by LBJ the day b-e-f-o-r-e the assassination what was going to happen to Kennedy the next day.

    I can’t explain everything here.

  148. Suthiano said on January 2nd, 2009 at 10:38pm #

    JR reveals own cultural bias/racism in his version of history.

    Egypt was acting legally and offered compensation to British/French corp that “owned” Suez canal prior. When JR says that Egypt was, “threatening to cut off world access”, world here means “the western powers”/”us”.

    Nor did Israel “immediately turn the land over”, but was forced to do so after France/Britain pulled back due to strategic reasons (i.e. the threat of soviet intervention). For Israel’s illegal acts of aggression there are serious discussions in the UN about expelling Israel and imposing severe sanctions.

    Six day war of aggression waged by Israel was also war of expansion, as Israeli army seizes Golan Heights, West Bank (including Jerusalem), and Sinai region. Acts are in violation of both the London and UN charters. Israel blocks Red Cross access after the war. June 18 Israel formally annexes East Jerusalem in violation of 1928 Kellogg-Briand Pact. Nov. 22 UN SC Res. 242 is passed, calling upon Israel to immediately withdraw from all territories occupied during 6 day war, while the US supports the resolution, they block enforcement provisions… To this day Israel has not complied with security council resolution 242..

    Zionist forces are inherently expansionist, as they begin with no territory and increase land through acts of aggression and appropriation. Some examples follow:

    1947-48 formation which denied Palestinians right to self determination / role in formation of Israel.
    1949 Ben-Gurion dreams up his “fantastic plan” of a “Greater Israel”, which includes the Egyptian Sinai, all of Jordan west of Jordan river, all Lebanese territory south of Litani River.
    1951 UN passes SC Res. 93, calling upon Israel to cease it’s illegal building of settlements in the demilitarized zones.
    1953: before his departe, Ben -Gurion, relying upon Moshe Dayan as executor, set in motion a plan to absorb the demilitarized zones estb 1949. Dayan unleashes a program of forcibly relocating Arab inhabitants from the DMZ, installing Israeli troops disguised as settlers. Also begins construction project to divert the flow of the Jordan River to the Negev region of Israel. Syria, which has already offered to give up 70% of its interest in the DMZ to resolve the issue, protests to the UN. THe U.S. then brokers an arrangement wherein Israel abandons its water diversion project in exchange for virtually total control over the DMZ.
    1953: Israel massacres 69 Jordanian civilians at the village of Qibya, in the West Bank region.
    1954: The returning Ben-Gurion begins “prodding” Egypt into outright war by attacking an Egyptian army headquarters on outskirts of Gaza City on Feb 28, killing 37, wounding 31. Egypt protests to the UN. No reaction is given.
    1954: July 23, group of Israeli intelligence operatives are apprehended in Cairo while attempting false flag attack on theater frequented by American and British nationals. Intent is to strain U.S. and British relations with Egypt.
    1954: 5 ISraeli soldiers are captured deep in Syrian territory. As a response, Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon orders the world’s first highjacking of an airliner-a pair of IAF fighters are asssigned to force a Syrian airliner out of its flight path, and to land in Israel. International uproar forces Israel to release the plane within 48 hours.
    1955: Us.S. Sec. of State John Foster DUlles secretley offers to commit the U.S. to a formal mutual defense pact with Israel in exchange for an Israeli agreement to cease cross-border provocations and abandoning plans for territorial expansion. Israel declines.
    1955: Mar 29. SC Res 106 is passed condemning the “prearranged and planned attack ordered by Israeli authorities [and] committed by Israeli regular armed forces against Egyptian armed forces in the Gaza strip” on Feb. 28 1954. U.S. blocks any provisions involving penalties. Egyptian President Nasser, who has until then acted to constrain the desire of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees displaced into Egypt to engage in guerrilla operations against Israel, reverses his position.
    1955: Nov 2, Ben-Gurion announces policy of “confrontation” with Egypt. That night Israeli troops assault and destroy Egyptian positions in al-Sabha, killing 50 soldiers and capturing 50 more. Internal documents later reveal that the unprovoked attack is part of a strategy of “prodding Nasser to go to war.”
    1955: Dec 11, Israel attacks Syrian military positions on the Golan Heights, unprovoked. Violates 1949 armistice agreements.
    1958: UN SC res 127 passed condemning Israeli impoundment of Jordanian property in the demilitarized zone – another violation of the 1949 armistice agreements.
    1962: UN SC res 171, condemning Israel’s “flagrant violation” in attacking Syrian positions on the Golan Heights on the night of Mar 16-17.
    1964: Israel undertakes a “policy of escalation” against Syria in the area of Lake Kinneret (from which Israel had been diverting water since 1959). According to Moshe Dayan “80 percent” of all the clashes between Israel and Syria during this period are “deliberately provoked” by Isreal”
    1972, General Ezer Weizman, later president, added that a political settlement without expansion would mean that Israel could not ‘exist according to the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies’
    General Haim Bar-Lev, a leading figure in the governing Labor Party, expressed the common understanding when he wrote in a Labor Party journal that ‘we can have peace, but I think if we continue to hold out we can obtain more.’

    There is plenty more that could be said, but I think picture has been sufficiently painted.

  149. The Angry Peasant said on January 2nd, 2009 at 10:53pm #

    Just like the Israelis. You give ‘em a few hundred square miles, they want half the globe.

  150. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 2nd, 2009 at 11:12pm #

    The Jews were still alive

    The simplest reason for rejecting the Holocaust story in general is that the vast majority of European Jews were still alive at the end of World War 2.

    “The Jewish Week 11-28-2003
    Two new studies to determine the location of Jewish Holocaust survivors, for use in making future allocations to the most needy, differ widely on the number of survivors worldwide, The Jewish Week has learned. Sergio DellaPergola, a demographer for the Institute of Contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, found 1,092,000 survivors worldwide. Jacob Ukeles, a policy researcher in Manhattan, found 688,000. The Ukeles survey, an update of one he prepared in 2000 for the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, found only minor differences from his previous effort. Lawrence Eagleburger, chairman of the International Commission on Holocaust Era Insurance Claims, commissioned both surveys. Eagleburger had hoped to use the figures in determining how to distribute $13.2 million annually in humanitarian funds for needy survivors worldwide.”

    SERGIO DELLAPERGOLA’s amazing discovery of 1,092,000 Jewish holocaust survivors alive in 2003 is thoroughly discussed in his 2003 report. Clearly, the numbers of “Jewish holocaust survivors” alive more than fifty-five years after the war are so enormous that one should wonder if any Jews at all perished during World War 2. Any conservative and reasonable statistical analysis of population decline over the post-war years would surely conclude that there were more than five million Jewish “holocaust survivors” alive at the end of the war. No doubt, some innocent Jews were killed–but, there is no good reason to believe Jewish deaths were statistically unusual for a long, horrific war in which many tens of millions of innocent civilians were killed of all nationalities. On the basis of numbers alone–the generally accepted story is a monumental hoax. The continued worldwide acceptance of that hoax, even in Germany, is a tribute to the enormous power and influence of the supposed victms and the Jewish community in general. The uniqueness of the mass gassing claims has also appealed to the darker sides of human imagination and gullibility.

    The archives at Bad Arolsen are becoming available and contain more than 50 million pages of documents about people who were in German camps during the war. By some accounts, those archives provide extensive documentation of Nazi atrocities. But, a recent letter from Bad Arolsen shows othwerwise: “unfortunately, we cannot reference a single document listing the death of a detainee due to gassing by Zyklon-B. As a rule, the Nazis gave other causes of death for inmates, who perished in the concentration camps.With kind regards,

    U. Jost Archival Manager”

    Almost needless to say, they could not provide any evidence of gassings with carbon monoxide, or diesel exhaust, or gasoline engine exhaust either–or else, they would have been more than delighted to provide it.

    One profound shortcoming in the DellaPergola report is that its “intermediate extensive” approach (see page 13 of the report) includes only “Jewish persons who are alive today” (meaning 2003) which obviously excludes people who had been Jewish during WW2 but who had “converted” or assimilated during the war and abandoned their earlier attachments to judaism–and who are NOT Jewish today. The numbers of people who fit into this category can only be guessed at by this author–but it does seem reasonable to imagine that the numbers are quite substantial. To escape the real, or perceived, dangers to their survival, many jews would have certainly dropped their religious attachments just as Germans after WW2 abandoned their earlier attachments to national-socialism. One might even call this the Madeline Albright phenomenon. Ms. Albright supposedly only learned of her family’s prewar Jewish-Czech identity after she herself had been raised as a Roman Catholic in the U.S. and had risen to become Secretary of State. Although her parents had come to a supposedly religion tolerant society, they did not resume their jewish identity and raised their daughter as a Christian instead. Any other living Jewish relatives of Ms. Albright apparently remained silent or out of contact as well.

    A similar shortcoming of the DellaPergola report is that it does not include people who had been Jewish during WW2 but who abandoned any Jewish identity in the fifty-eight years since the end of the war, for whatever reasons, which might simply be intermarriage—or, outright rejection of religion in general as one would expect in communist eastern Europe. To ignore the postwar pressures to conform to an atheistic world view would be like taking the difference in censuses of Christians in eastern Europe, before and after communism—and then concluding that the difference represented the number of “Christians exterminated under communism.” Accusations of rabid anti-Semitism under postwar communism have been rather frequent and, therefore, one should expect the pressures to conform to have significantly reduced the Jewish population in the postwar period as well.

    In view of real, or perceived, dangers to their survival, why would any sane Jewish person want to remain Jewish? Are Jews more fanatical about their religious beliefs than other people? What this all means is that the true numbers of Jewish “holocaust survivors” alive at the end of the war must be significantly greater than the millions implied by the DellaPergola report directly. The true numbers of “surviving persons of wartime Jewish identity” are, in any event, enormous and are the clearest and most dramatic refutation of the hoax. The numbers of additional “wartime Jews” who abandoned their jewish identity after the war make the case against the hoax even more dramatic.

    For the actual text with many working links, go to:

    http://www.nazigassings.com

  151. Deadbeat said on January 2nd, 2009 at 11:16pm #

    Zionism is poison to the mind, body, and soul. The arguments you see herein is not that different to the visceral defense of White Supremacy 40 years ago. I still contend that Zionism should be confronted directly as a racist ideology rather than confronted as “imperialism”. The reason is that I believe that it will rally more people to challenge U.S. policy in the Middle East.

    I do not believe it will end “U.S. Imperialism” but it certainly will weaken it (at least Zionism) that that such an approach is achievable. It worked in the 1

  152. Deadbeat said on January 2nd, 2009 at 11:17pm #

    It worked in the 1980’s against South Africa and I believe it can work against Zionism.

  153. The Angry Peasant said on January 2nd, 2009 at 11:21pm #

    But how do you educate the American people about something the government absolutely does not want them to know? No mean feat.

  154. JR said on January 3rd, 2009 at 6:24am #

    It’s useless. Despite the photographs and meticulous records kept by the Nazis themselves detailing the millions of Jews they murdered, Freidrich the Holocaust denier cites the logic of how many Jews are alive today and other nonsense to “prove” that: “No doubt, some innocent Jews were killed–but, there is no good reason to believe Jewish deaths were statistically unusual for a long, horrific war”.

    And then we have those who accept the Holocaust, but are only too delighted to equate Zionism with racism and blame the Israelis for having the gall to try to protect themselves from being annihilated a second time by the Arabs. And the nerve of the USA, that disgusting imperialist country, to try to help them!

    As Dr. King said: “When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews. Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind”.

    I leave you anti-Semites to continue your discussion of Jew hatred amongst yourselves.

  155. Aaron Aarons said on January 3rd, 2009 at 9:32am #

    Dr. King did not say: “When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews. Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind”. It’s a made-up quote. And the first sentence is absurd on its face, since there are millions of Jews who criticize Zionism, and many of us do, in fact, consider Zionism to be a racist ideology and to be EXTREMELY racist in practice.

  156. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 3rd, 2009 at 11:12am #

    JR is a congenital liar as he shows above. He wrote the following to imply that certain things are self-evident which are, in fact, not self-evident or even true: “Despite the photographs and meticulous records kept by the Nazis themselves detailing the millions of Jews they murdered, ….”

    There are absolutely NO Nazi or German records of people having been killed in gas chambers.

    There are NO photographs anywhere of Jews or anyone else who was supposedly killed by the Nazis with poison gas or poison.

    There are NO autopsies, for example, of any of the many thousands of dead found in the German camps at the end of the war showing that any of the dead had been killed with poison gas or any other poison.

    To claim otherwise, as JR does, is to continue to perpetrate the dirty jewish hoax that we all know so well. The real killer near the end of the war was disease which reached horrendous proportions because of the Allied terror bombing of German civilians and civilian targets. The real “killers” were the Allies–inspired, of course, by the jewish propaganda which dominated the American press and media. In a sense, the Jews brought a real disaster due to disease upon themselves.

  157. Deadbeat said on January 3rd, 2009 at 11:13am #

    Aaron Aarons writes…

    Zionism to be a racist ideology and to be EXTREMELY racist in practice.

    CORRECT and that is why the way to confront Zionism is as a RACIST ideology. Which is why in the United States PEOPLE OF COLOR can be a major ally against Zionism and why pinning the Zionist label on Obama is the way to weaken his support in communities of color. African Americans, especially during the “Black Power” movement was outspoken against Zionism. It the Left works with communities of color who has a long history of struggle against White Supremacy, IMO, that struggle can be extended to the struggle against Zionism.

    What important is spreading the idea that Zionism is racism. Many people have yet to see that connection. IMO it would be easier spreading that idea to communities of color and enlisting their support. Also as we can see with the Obama phenomenon that Zionist leader will need to incorporate more sellouts in order to blunt the strategy of enlisting people of color against Zionism. This is another reason why the Left must extend their reach and solidarity to communities of color.

  158. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 3rd, 2009 at 11:41am #

    The problem is not merely Zionism which has some redeeming qualities; the bigger problem is Judaism itself.

    Judaism is racism warmed-over and dressed up as a religion.

    Early Christianity was also racist but thanks to Paul it took another direction and became a path for everyone’s salvation. In general, Judaism has little interest, except to disguise it’s real nature, to see gentiles as anything other than Untermenschen or cattle. Some of the more modern forms of “Judaism” are, however, really Christianity without Jesus. Modern Jews have a moral identity crisis which they will never solve by remaining Jews, or Zionists. They pretend to be enlightened and modern while, at the same time, trying to maintain “tradition.” Their traditions are thoroughly racist and even genocidal toward all the rest of humanity.

    Learn more at: http://www.nazigassings.com

  159. bozh said on January 3rd, 2009 at 1:08pm #

    friedrich,
    wld u please enumerate some or all of the redeeming ‘zionist’ qualities. thus far i haven’t discovered even one.
    i put the word “zionism” under single quotes cuz these euros have nothing to do w. zion or canaan. thnx

  160. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 3rd, 2009 at 2:01pm #

    Well, one redeeming quality of Zionism was that it strived, at least initially, to teach Jews to work the soil, and work with their hands instead of simply selling the labor of others. The problem was that it wasn’t their own soil that they working; it was someone else’s.

  161. bozh said on January 3rd, 2009 at 3:10pm #

    friedrich, c’mon, don’t tweak my nose please. not all euros w. judaic faith cld be bankers, merchants; some must have been tillers of land for millenia.
    most of them were really germans, khazars, slavs, et al; nothing whatsoever to do with semites or judeans.
    most of the judeans were slaughtered or fled for dear life but not to roman empire but to arab lands; cuz arabic was simlar to hebraic.
    and germans, slavs were also farmers who also at one time did not own the land they tilled. thnx

  162. bozh said on January 3rd, 2009 at 3:26pm #

    there is no historic evidence that hebrews have slaughtered all hated canaanites.
    i repeat, noah had cursed his son, Ham, and his descendants, canaanites as per gen. 10:25.
    even in torah, the accounts of slain jebusites, hitites, hivvites, and others, r contradictory.
    and torah is an adulterated writings by mad jewish priests.
    so pals may have resided in canaan for at least 7td yrs.
    but this is a mere curioso; euros still don ‘t havea right to palestine. thanx

  163. prof10 said on January 3rd, 2009 at 3:41pm #

    I am a HS history teacher and intend to use this commentary as part of an ‘exploration of bigotry’ program my students will be pursuing.

    It is unfortunate in our modern world where so much information is available, that despite this the most egregious lies are claimed as fact and then passed around electronically in a few websites and commentaries like this. I will enumerate some of these lies.

    First we have those that deny that Jews were killed in the Holocaust; or accept that they were, but not 6 million; or accept that millions of Jews died, but from disease and other effects of a long war. They further claim that there are no records proving that Jews were particularly targeted for extermination by the Nazis and then actually exterminated in the millions, when in fact there are numerous first person accounts by survivors and by Nazis at the Nuremberg trials and an enormous amount of Nazi records – transportation lists, Gestapo orders, camp registers, slave labor booklets, death books. Recently some 100 million digital images of Nazi records released from East Germany (previously under Soviet control) have been added to this documentation. These records are administered by the International Tracing Service of the International Committee of the Red Cross which began releasing them to Holocaust Museums in August. The documents refer to some 17.5 million Nazi victims. It is estimated that somewhere between 4.8 and 6 million victims were Jews.

    Then we have the litany of supposed aggression by Israel from 1954 on – taken right from Palestinian propaganda. One would think in reading these charges that Israel is a huge country attempting to devour Arab lands. In fact Israel is 8,000 square miles surrounded by some 5,120,000 square miles of Arabs who have repeatedly attempted to destroy it. http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html

    Then we have the charge that Israel stole Arab land – when in fact Israel got its land the same way the Arab nations got theirs – by a decision of the League of Nations made after the Allies defeated the Ottoman Empire which ruled all of the territory for 400 years prior to 1921. To further discredit the Jewish land claim, Palestinians have been working hard to extinguish any Jewish connection to Jerusalem – attempting to “prove” that the Jewish Temples never stood there. I haven’t yet read this in this commentary, but expect to.

    It is reasonable to have sympathy for the Palestinians who are suffering, but that suffering is more rightly attributed to their own leaders who have refused to accept the existence of Israel and have maintained a state of war with Israel for 60 years, than it is to “Zionism”. Just think of what the Palestinians could have now if they had accepted the UN Partition and spent the next 60 years building their own state as Israel did. They could in fact have a state equal in size and success to Israel. Israel did not stop them from achieving that – their own corrupt leaders did that.

    And then we have the claim that Zionism = racism. Not only Zionism, but Judaism itself is a racist religion. 5,000,000 square miles of nations which are exclusively Muslim do not qualify as racism, but according to those who contribute to this commentary 8,000 square miles of a state practicing Judaism does.

    And then we have the defense of anti-Zionism, including the claim that the Martin Luther King statement which equated anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism was “made up”, when in fact it is a true statement made in 1968 at a speech at Harvard. Google it.

    What I teach my students is that bigotry like this stems from two possible sources – fear or envy – generally found in people who are fearful of losing what they have, angry at what others have or feel inferior and use this hatred as a method to connect with like minded people and increase their sense of worth.

    What are we to make of those special cases of anti-Semites who claim they cannot be anti-Semitic because they themselves are Jews. That has been hard to explain. The best explanation I have read is that psychologically these Jews have internalized the anti-Semitism directed at Jews and to deflect that they become just as critical of Jews as the anti-Semites. They often “out anti-Semite” the anti-Semite, as if to say “I’m a Jew but I’m not like those Jews you hate, I’m a good Jew”.

    In closing I would like to say thank you. Thank you to “Deadbeat”, “Bozh”, “Angry Peasant”, “Berg”, “Aarons” and all the other bigots who have contributed to this – you’ve written my lesson plans for me.

  164. Tree said on January 3rd, 2009 at 5:16pm #

    Prof10, you had me in your corner right up until you got into the stuff about Israel. Now I’m sad that your students will hear the same lies from you they hear on the news.
    The Palestinians have hardly anything because Israel keeps taking it away from them. 5,000,000 refugees in their own country.

    There is a big difference between Zionists and Jews. Just as there is a huge difference between say, a Methodist and a foam-at-the-mouth fundamentalist who runs for public office.
    Many Jews are against Zionism because they see it for what it is. As you suggested, “Google it.”

    Maybe when you teach your students about bigotry, you can talk about your own against the Palestinian people. Maybe you could explain how the horrors of what happened in Europe are happening again in Gaza. Probably not but fingers crossed you’ll have a couple of students smarter than you who will challenge you and your lies. Maybe they will tell you that in 1948 Israel took 20% more land than was mandated to them. Maybe they will tell you how Israel has forced millions of Palestinians out of their homes, stolen their land, destroyed their olive trees, killed their children, taken their water, tortured their men, refused them medical care, starved them, bombed their homes, closed off their borders and built a wall which they cannot cross for work or emergency medical care.

  165. Petronius said on January 3rd, 2009 at 5:21pm #

    Empires come and go, from the Egyptian to the Chinese, to Roman, French, British and now the American empire, each time shorter lived because of competitive forces and a shrinking of the world. No wonder people want to come here and participate in the wealth and power of the center. Each empire needs to protect its borders and expand its sphere of influence to secure raw materials. To anchor its interests, it needs outposts, like bases in strategic places and Israel forms such a secure base for American interests in the oil rich Middle East. The Israelis are there not for any oil in their soil, nor for the particular beauty and climate of the place, but for the need to have a national home for Jews the world over. Their interests coincided with neo-colonialist foreign policies of the West and that is the reason why their presence in that important region of the Eastern Mediterranean basin is so deeply resented by the former inhabitants of Israeli lands. The acerbic discussion on this website shows the enormous gulf between those who side with the Israelis and those who understand the impossibility to dispossess a whole people in the present information-linked world. To constantly refer back to previous history and/or origins of populations is futile, because the present precipitously changes content despite facile assertions that one needs to study the past in order to understand the present. The Gaza attack precludes and precedes any foreign policy shifts that president Obama may decide upon and it is an event decided on from weakness, so if indeed he wishes to correct this country’s image, then such forays will later be prevented. America perforce has to enter now a phase of accommodation as is well understood by its power elites, because of the countervailing forces in the world, China, Russia, probably South America, etc. and Israel must follow suit. The ‘Real Politik’ of survival dictates at each moment the foreign policies of nation states and the promotion of an ‘accommodator’ candidate for the presidency like Obama is a sure indicator of such a change. One should still be aware that it is purely a cosmetic one, but global popular opinion demands it and one can expect a more ‘human’ face of this country’s and Israel’s future dominance. But nonetheless empire’s days are getting shorter and more overcast and it may well abandon sooner or later its costly support of footholds in the world, with still totally unforeseeable consequences. Because as a private citizen one is well-nigh powerless (thanks to the law of the land, read: of power-holders and because of the constant mis-information from the pernicious media), the best one can do now is to find reasons for solidarity not calumny.

  166. bozh said on January 3rd, 2009 at 5:33pm #

    prof10,
    u posit tacitly that euros w. judaic faith r of judean ancestry. the only people who assert this r christians and judaists.
    there is no evidence even to show let alone prove that a people so genetically mixed as judaists were descendants of the judeans.
    even so, euros had not right to wage a war against pals and drive out ab 7-800td pals out of their homes.
    so, having started ur history at ’54 instead at ’17 w. balfour declaration u r telling us that pals r wrong.
    to u some of us r bigots, by nam ecalling u show/prove that ur scared of the truth and that u wld like to bar free speech as msm does. thnx

  167. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 3rd, 2009 at 6:09pm #

    Profio is, obviously, a jewish HS history teacher from his own words–but he is also a congenital LIAR.

    Profio wrote above: “…an enormous amount of Nazi records – transportation lists, Gestapo orders, camp registers, slave labor booklets, death books. Recently some 100 million digital images of Nazi records released from East Germany (previously under Soviet control) have been added to this documentation. These records are administered by the International Tracing Service of the International Committee of the Red Cross which began releasing them to Holocaust Museums in August. The documents refer to some 17.5 million Nazi victims. It is estimated that somewhere between 4.8 and 6 million victims were Jews.”

    There are, indeed, an enormous number number of German wartime records available–but there is NOT even one document to show anyone had ever been gassed to death by the Nazis. I challenge Profio and everyone else to identify any such document. Put up or shutup, Profio!

    There were, indeed, thousands of dead bodies in German concentration camps at the end of WW2 but although more than a thousand were carefully examined by forensic pathologists–NOT even one was ever identified as the corpse of someone killed by poison gas, or any other poison. From all those mountains of evidence, there is no forensic evidence of any gassings at all! Dr. Charles P. Larson was an American pathologist assigned to generate precisely such evidence for the US Army War Crimes Branch–but he came up with absolutely nothing in that regard, and he admitted that in the book he helped write entitled “Crime Doctor.”

    And, as to the so-called “slave laborers;”– they were paid for their work. If they were employed within Germany, they were paid the same wages as a German worker for the same work. With less deductions than German workers had, their take-home pay was actually more than that of German workers. They also got paid vacations and sick pay just as German workers did. In concentration camps such as Auschwitz, the workers were paid with special currency for their work. Elie Wiesel got paid for his work at Monowitz–but he will never admit it.

    Learn even more at http://www.nazigassings.com

    The “holocaust” really is a dirty jewish hoax, folks!

  168. Tree said on January 3rd, 2009 at 6:20pm #

    When was the last time you left your parent’s basement, Friedrich?

  169. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 3rd, 2009 at 6:34pm #

    Oh, Tree, since you are obviously so interested –why don’t you try to answer my simple challenge also. Put up or shut up, moron!

    Learn everything at: http://www.nazigassings.com

  170. Shabnam said on January 3rd, 2009 at 9:19pm #

    Zionism is a racist ideology and seeks WORLD DOMINATION, therefore, survives on expansionist policy. To achieve its goal, Zionism will destroy whatever comes in front of it. Zionism is trying to establish ‘world government’ though massacre of unwanted people to rule the world. Zionism must be confronted before it destroys you. Vanunu hold Israel responsible for JFK assassination.

    “LBJ was scared and the Israelis knew how to scare him.”

    Through black mail, Israeli usually controls political figures. Bill Clinton, have been reported, was black mailed by recoding his phone sex with Monica Lewinsky. LBJ might have been aware of the assassination earlier where made him to be scared.
    http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/vanunu.html
    BEHIND THE JFK ASSASSINATION
    In a startling accusation, nuclear whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu has alleged that Jerusalem was behind the assassination of US President John F. Kennedy, who was exerting pressure on the then Israeli head of state to shed light on the Dimona nuclear plant.
    Comments made by Vanunu during an interview with Al Hayat’s weekly magazine Al Wassat, published on July 25, made headlines around the world but were completely ignored in the United States, where they could have caused immense political damage to Israel. As The Jerusalem Post’s article headline read, “Vanunu: Israel behind JFK assassination.”
    Russia’s Pravda article of July 27 began: “Israel may be implicated in the biggest crime of the past century, which took place in Dallas in 1963.”
    Iran’s Tehran Times, writing from Jerusalem, said: “In a startling accusation, nuclear whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu has alleged that Jerusalem was behind the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy, who was exerting pressure on the then Israeli head of state to shed light on the Dimona nuclear plant.”
    Similar articles appeared in newspapers around the world, but in the United States this explosive news was only reported by wire services and in Jewish newspapers.
    http://newsfromthewest.blogspot.com/2008/01/israel-killed-jfk.html

  171. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 3rd, 2009 at 10:54pm #

    Israel was furious at JFK because he tried to stop Israel from becoming a nuclear power and from getting uranium from France. They certinly knew what was going on behind the scenes.

  172. Doug said on January 3rd, 2009 at 10:58pm #

    The term “Anti-Semitism” is a racist term. It implies that the word “racism” is not sufficient to describe racism against Jews. it implies that Jews are more special than non-Jews and that hatred of them is more reprehensible than hatred of any other people.

    Jewish chauvinism and hatred of non-Jews is they only reason people hate Jews. Jews have disparaging words they use to describe the rest of us, such as “goy” and “gentile”, as if the only thing that distinguishes us is that we are not Jewish. As far as I’m concerned, since 99.9% of the humanoids on this planet are “Gentiles”, then “Gentile” means “human” and non-Gentiles are not human.

    Personally, I knew nothing about Jewish chauvinism and believed the Holocaust(tm) myth until Deborah Lipstadt went out of her way get David Irving’s contract, to have his biography of Geobbels published, nullified. If she had left well enough alone, I’d have never heard of Irving, would never have purchased and read all of his books, and would never have contributed cash to help his cause. So I have to say a big “Thank you!” to Ms. Lipstadt for opening my eyes to the truth. If not for her pushiness and chauvinism, I’d still be a believer in The Biggest Lie In All History, aka the Holocaust(tm).

  173. Doug said on January 3rd, 2009 at 11:41pm #

    “And then we have the claim that Zionism = racism. Not only Zionism, but Judaism itself is a racist religion. 5,000,000 square miles of nations which are exclusively Muslim do not qualify as racism, but according to those who contribute to this commentary 8,000 square miles of a state practicing Judaism does.”

    That’s because “Islam” is not a race. It is a religion that is practiced by Chinese, Indonesians, Caucasians (Indians and Pakistanis), Persians, Arabs, Africans, Bedouins and many other people of differing ethnicities.

    One the other hand, “Jewish” is both a religion and a race. Many Israelis are not religious, but they are Jewish under Israeli racial law, which is identical to Nazi racial identification of Jews.

    Either way, Israel is antithetical to the values of the United States. It is either a theocracy or is a racist state, where racial identification determines full citizenship and rights. Either way, Israel is something that only religious bigots or racists can support.

  174. The Angry Peasant said on January 4th, 2009 at 1:17am #

    “Antithetical to the values of the United States?” Get your head out of your ass. Israel is the United States sans the bullshit propaganda. The U.S. has always been a militaristic, terrorist state. Idiots like you swallow the bullshit good guy story too easily. Wake up. The reason Israel is doing what they’re doing; the way they’re able to is because we encourage and supply and protect them!! Stop clinging to some outmoded belief that the U.S. is a good country—it’s not!

  175. The Angry Peasant said on January 4th, 2009 at 1:23am #

    There is something to the argument of U.S.-supported Zionism. Furthermore, there is a hell of a lot to the U.S. being generally evil. Look at the big picture. The U.S. spends more on its military than all other nations combined. Sound like an imperical country to you? Does to me. The only “values” the United States has are greed and bottom lines. Period.

  176. The Angry Peasant said on January 4th, 2009 at 1:30am #

    And by the way, let’s stop being so close-minded in the case of Friedrich Paul Berg. In this day and age, and looking at all the lies we’ve been told; all the propaganda we’ve had to sort out; isn’t it time we put away our fear of being conceived as “racist” or “prejudiced” and just listen? Maybe he’s full of shit. Personally, I’d say probably. But don’t tear him down like day-after party decorations. I don’t doubt at least the possibility of any conspiracy at this point. We live in a very grey-area world.

  177. Deadbeat said on January 4th, 2009 at 5:17am #

    I agree with most of the points made by The Angry Peasant However there is a line that has been constantly promoted by the “Left” and that is the notion that Israel is the “junior partner” of the United States. This is often repeated with the no evidence whatsoever to prove this to be the case. Israel pursue its own national policies whether or not they converge or conflict with U.S. interests. However the “Left” uses that line in order to obscure Israel’s racist policies as if they are emanating strictly from the United States. Essentially this “junior partner” canard is being used to obscure the racism of Zionism and to divert the attention and blame to the United States rather than Zionism. Also this canard deliberately is being used to confuse activists and to block any real confrontation of Zionism — especially any confrontation of Zionism in the United States.

  178. prof10 said on January 4th, 2009 at 9:32am #

    “No Jews were gassed”, “Jews were paid for their (slave) labor – in fact paid more than German workers”, “Jews are a race”, “Jews (non-Gentiles) are not human”, “Zionism seeks world domination” (doing a pretty crummy job of it considering that after 5 millennium they still only have 8,000 square miles of territory), “Jews were behind the assassination of JFK” (and probably every other ill that has ever befallen the world). This is Nazi philosophy. The fact that AMERICANS, other than vile skinheads and KKK, actually believe this garbage is a real eye opener.

    BTW – Judaism is NOT a race. Judaism is a religion around which a common tradition has been built. It was the Nazis that first made the assertion that Jews were a race. There are no “racial” characteristics that distinguish a Jew. There are Ethiopian Jews, Moroccan Jews, Asian Jews, Hispanic Jews, Australian Jews, British Jews, Nordic Jews, European Jews, etc. Jews can be of any race or culture – and anyone who chooses to convert to Judaism is a Jew.

  179. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 4th, 2009 at 11:38am #

    Profio has NO idea as to what “Nazi philosophy” is.

    Above he is obviously distorting things I and others said earlier–and even lying outright. He put quotation marks around words that neither I, nor anyone else here–actually used. For example, he used quotation marks as follows to enclose the following sentence: “Jews were paid for their (slave) labor -in fact paid more than German workers”,. I never said those things and no one else here was even talking about that subject. In other words, Profio is a shameless LIAR.

    Are you jewish Profio? That would explain things.

    Jews are probably NOT a race –but Judaism certainly is a form of racism. One might say, Judaism is a veiled attempt to maintain and promote a race that does not truly exist except in the muddled dreams of people like Profio. At its core, Judaism has the Old Testament which as anyone with any brains can clearly see is blatantly racist.

  180. Tree said on January 4th, 2009 at 12:25pm #

    Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 3rd, 2009 at 6:09pm #

    And, as to the so-called “slave laborers;”– they were paid for their work. If they were employed within Germany, they were paid the same wages as a German worker for the same work. With less deductions than German workers had, their take-home pay was actually more than that of German workers. They also got paid vacations and sick pay just as German workers did. In concentration camps such as Auschwitz, the workers were paid with special currency for their work. Elie Wiesel got paid for his work at Monowitz–but he will never admit it.

    I really, really detest mendacity.

  181. Max Shields said on January 4th, 2009 at 12:48pm #

    Berg, Steven Klein and JR are part of a game. Berg plays the Nazi to JRs Zionist on this thread, while Klein does the same under the guise of question credible sources even when those sources are UN resolutions.

    None of these dupes are worthy of responses. They are all part of a twisted pathological game and their polluting DV with their posts.

  182. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 4th, 2009 at 1:08pm #

    Oh Tree, pay attention now! Let’s take this step by step–one, and two, an three. Where did I ever say Jews or “slave laborers” were paid “more” than German workers? Do try to read carefully before accusing me of “mendacity.”

    And for you, Max Shields! Since we are not worthy of your responses, just go away and stay away.

    What is in progress here is the kind of debate which America’s corrupt and Jew-dominated media and public institutions will not condone or allow. If the debate is removed from this site–it will continue elsewhere thanks to the miracle of the internet. Get used to it and try to learn something. I learn a lot every time I engage in these debates.

  183. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 4th, 2009 at 1:46pm #

    To countless insane jewish fairytales about their so-called “holocaust,” new ones keep popping up. Some of the fairytales include those by Wilkomirski, Misha Defonseca, and Herman Rosenblatt.

    Irene Zisblatt wrote a book about her wartime experiences including many months in Auschwitz entitled: “The Fifth Diamond: The Story of Irene Weisberg Zisblatt.” The book and story are described at: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/broward/cooper-davie-southwest/story/819285.html

    “The only way Irene could keep the diamonds hidden was to swallow and retrieve them over and over again. She did this for 15 months.”

    I will never look at diamonds the same way ever again. For that matter, I will never at a toilet or fesces the same way again either. Their might be diamonds down there.

  184. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 4th, 2009 at 2:15pm #

    One should also look at the following Judicial, Inc., story about the Fifth Diamond fairytale: http://www.judicial-inc.biz/91she_ate_her_own_stool_for_three.htm

    And Zisblatt even has her own website at: http://irenezisblatt.com There everyone can order her book. According to the website: “The last mementoes of her family were the four diamonds given to her by her mother, that she had to keep swallowing over and over so they wouldn’t be confiscated. She walked for two months on a death march while thousands of weakened prisoners dropped dead around her. Through it all, she held onto her hope and faith and, encouraged by the strength of her friend, Sabka, somehow she made it through one of humankind’s darkest eras.

    Although she swore to tell the world of the atrocities she’d seen, to be a voice for her friends and fellow prisoners, it took her fifty years to get over her fear and shame before she could do so.”

    You just can’t make up stuff like this, at least I can’t–but Jews seem to do it all the time.

    Friedrich Paul Berg

  185. Doug said on January 4th, 2009 at 2:29pm #

    “The reason Israel is doing what they’re doing; the way they’re able to is because we encourage and supply and protect them!! Stop clinging to some outmoded belief that the U.S. is a good country—it’s not!”

    Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the values laid out in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights.

    The practice of the US government has certainly been antithetical to those values, especially in the last 60+ years. Part of the reason for this is that they are all Christians, which comes from Judaism and shares the evils of the original religion.

    As for the relationship between Israel and the US, I think you have things backwards. It is Israel and the Jews who control the US and not the US that controls Israel. Potential Israeli PMs don’t have to meet with a US lobby group to get approval to run for office, but potential US presidential candidate must get vetted by AIPAC before they have any hope of running. Ron Paul refused and was either ridiculed or ignored by the Jewish controlled US media. He never had a chance because he refused to kowtow to Israel.

  186. Max Shields said on January 4th, 2009 at 3:12pm #

    Doug, without sounding pedantic (and I do understand your clarification) but the US Constitution is a governance document for a hierarchical empire fashioned after the “mother of all empires at the time” UK.

    I was put in place and ratified to establish an elite governance. It has nothing (not that you said it does) to do with democracy but how the elite would govern the original and expending empire.

    The Delaration of Independence was a revolutionary document, which served a purpose – to mollify the masses, never meant to be used.

    Most of what we are has been dominated by the “right of center” elite articulated and deeply rooted by the language and role of Alexander Hamilton. Jefferson had more “liberalish” leanings, but lived a life of an elite with a full staff of slaves.

    There is little about US had that had a once upon a time that is not pretty much fiction. The DoI does provide a standard, but at this stage we are better off, starting all over. The DoI has proved itself no more than a screen for what really happens here so is pretty meaningless (it does provide a great deal of frustration and little more).

    However don’t think we really know who the tail and dog are regarding Israel’s relationship with the US. It’s gotten so incestuous that its difficult to split a part. I think it was clearly the US that had the upper hand, but as of late, the door has been so opened that the AIPAC has made significant in roads in infiltrated the US government at the highest level and throughout the Congress.

    I think the real tipping point was the collapse of the Soviet Union. During the bi-polar time period, Israel had a place within the US sphere of influence that was clearly mapped as a supporter against Soviet in roads to the ME and the energy reserves. But with the collapse, and the emergence of AIPAC Israel has pulled all the stoppers out because there is no “obvious threat/enemy”.

    Zionism has always been about expansionism but the Soviet Union helped keep the lid on the ME (and else where). Once that went, well all bets were off and all hell has broken lose. Granted there was the ’67 war but again there was containment – after all the bi-polar operative word was containment. It’s just my sense of the unfolding of where we are.

  187. Doug said on January 4th, 2009 at 3:15pm #

    “BTW – Judaism is NOT a race. Judaism is a religion around which a common tradition has been built. It was the Nazis that first made the assertion that Jews were a race. There are no “racial” characteristics that distinguish a Jew.”

    Ok, so what you are saying is that being Jewish is something that someone consciously chooses to do, like being a Nazi, or being a Satanist, or being a gangster. Since people have a choice in whether they are Jewish, Nazi, Satanist, criminal, etc., then there is nothing wrong with despising them for making that choice and that to be Anti-Jewish is not to be a Racist. Hatred of Jews is not Racism, it is just hatred of a disgusting, immoral, destructive lifestyle. Right?

  188. bozh said on January 4th, 2009 at 3:23pm #

    yes, doug,
    judaism, to me, is a cult; w. lostof evil teachings. we might understand why 3-4td yrs ago a few people had such paranoid/hateful plans.
    but there is no excuse today for anyone being so much antilife, antihuman. thnx

  189. Friedrich Paul Berg said on January 4th, 2009 at 5:25pm #

    In case anyone is unfamiliar with the Herman Rosenblat hoax, here it is:

    http://www.comcast.net/data/fan/html/popup.html?v=978389199&pl=978378400.xml&plc=978378400&launchpoint=Cover&cid=fancover&attr=default_headline&config=/config/common/fan/default.xml

  190. Francesca said on January 7th, 2009 at 5:38am #

    All those trolls using ad hominem deflections by screaming “anti-semitism” (which btw only applies if you have a problem with arabs) or “holocaust denial” are just providing really good examples of I think what we’re trying to somehow discuss here in our pc hobbled society.

  191. Aaron Aarons said on January 7th, 2009 at 10:58am #

    Zionist apologist “prof10″: ‘What are we to make of those special cases of anti-Semites who claim they cannot be anti-Semitic because they themselves are Jews. That has been hard to explain. The best explanation I have read is that psychologically these Jews have internalized the anti-Semitism directed at Jews and to deflect that they become just as critical of Jews as the anti-Semites. They often “out anti-Semite” the anti-Semite, as if to say “I’m a Jew but I’m not like those Jews you hate, I’m a good Jew”.

    ‘In closing I would like to say thank you. Thank you to “Deadbeat”, “Bozh”, “Angry Peasant”, “Berg”, “Aarons” and all the other bigots who have contributed to this – you’ve written my lesson plans for me.’

    I have no intention of getting into any of the debates on this page that don’t relate to Zionism and the oppression of Palestinians, and take no responsibility for what those other people wrote. But, apparently, “prof10″ thinks it’s “antisemitic” to say “there are millions of Jews who criticize Zionism, and many of us do, in fact, consider Zionism to be a racist ideology and to be EXTREMELY racist in practice.” If that judgement is not enough in itself to invalidate his opinions, then consider his statement: “Then we have the charge that Israel stole Arab land – when in fact Israel got its land the same way the Arab nations got theirs – by a decision of the League of Nations made after the Allies defeated the Ottoman Empire which ruled all of the territory for 400 years prior to 1921.” Yes, the decisions of the imperialist League of Nations created the artificial borders of the Arab states, but Palestine was the ONLY place where they asserted that people who didn’t live there and hadn’t lived there had as much right to the place as the actual inhabitants did!

    But the actual establishment of the Zionist entity was the result of pressure in the U.N. by a corrupt Harry Truman with the complicity of Stalin, followed by a brutal ethnic cleansing of not only the land unjustly allocated by the U.N. to the Zionists but any additional land that the well-armed Zionists could seize, much of it during “cease-fire” periods, just as the Zionists carried out land grabs and assassinations during the recent “cease fire” that Hamas rightly refused to extend.

  192. prof10 said on January 9th, 2009 at 8:53am #

    Aarons should read his history without the blinding filters of “imperialism” and “Zionism”.

    1. Jews established Jerusalem as their capital over 3000 years ago. With the exception of 100 years, it remained their capital for the next 1000 years. Even following the Roman expulsion of Jews in 70 AD, with the exception of historically brief periods when Jews were expelled by various rulers, there has ALWAYS been a Jewish presence in Palestine, most notably in Jerusalem. In 1800 Jews were 25% of the population of Jerusalem. By 1854 they were more than 50% of the population (with Muslims about 25% and Christians the remaining %). In contrast, Jerusalem was never a capital or even claimed to be holy for Muslims (except of course after the Jewish claim). In fact it is not even mentioned in the Koran and the period of Arab Muslim domination lasted for only 400 years after Mohammed conquered the area in 636.

    2. By the Middle Ages Jerusalem had seriously deteriorated due to damage done by the Mongol Invasions after the end of the Crusader Kingdom; and the entire region of Palestine degenerated under the neglect of the Ottoman Pashas and Bedouin Raids. By the mid 1800’s the population of the Palestine region, which then numbered somewhere between 200,000 and 350,000, was seriously declining due to economic stagnation.

    3. The MUSLIM population started to grow ONLY AFTER substantial Jewish immigration began in the 1880’s. Many of the Palestinians who claim “ancient” ties to Palestine were in fact Arabs from surrounding areas that were attracted to Palestine AFTER 1880 because of the jobs available in agricultural and industrial enterprises started by Jews. “Jewish resettlement restored the barren lands and drew to it Arabs from neighboring countries… (much of) the Arab population in recent decades was recent newcomers-either late immigrants or descendants of persons who had immigrated into Palestine in the previous seventy years.” Dr. Carl Herman Voss, 1953, chairman of the American Christian Palestine Committee.

    4. Palestine is far from the only area where partition and or population transfers have taken place during the 20th century and where new countries with new populations have been established – most notably Pakistan and Bangladesh and the former Yugoslavia. But it is the only one that engenders a continuous and virulent hatred not only for a country (Israel) but for Judaism; and it is the only one against which so many wholeheartedly condone terrorism.

    I have no doubt that the above information will be disputed by anti-Zionists, much as the Holocaust deniers claim that the Jews attacked Hitler first, Jews were paid for their slave labor, the gas chambers never gassed anyone and the “few” Jews who died in WW2 died from disease caused mostly by “imperialist” Allied bombing of Germany. As “Tree” quickly discovered when she quoted from the Nuremberg Trials to prove that Nazis used gas to exterminate Jews, there is an interesting mechanism that Holocaust deniers and anti-Zionists use – whenever there is evidence or testimony that contradicts their rhetoric, they simply call it a lie.

    In any case, Aarons – who claims that “Jewish anti-Zionists” like him number in the “millions” (hardly likely since the world’s Jewish population is only about 18 million and this is a very minority viewpoint amongst Jews), shows his true colors when he (in lock step with Iran) calls Israel a Zionist “entity”, and fails to criticize Hamas not only for its violence against Israel, but for its violence against its own people.

    Israel is the only Middle East country that provides freedom of religion and protection for all religions. It has also given the world Nobel Prize winners, technological inventions and medical advancements far in excess of what should be expected given its size and population. It is surrounded by Muslim nations which allow for little or no freedom of religion; which have enormous rates of illiteracy, which hang homosexuals, stone women who are raped and condone honor killings; and whose only lasting technological legacy will be the “invention” of suicide bombers.

    Do I want Israel to be replaced by yet another Middle East country like that? Definitely not. If that makes me a “Zionist apologist”, then I’m proud to be one.

  193. bozh said on January 9th, 2009 at 10:53am #

    prof10
    you have selected facts in order to show/prove that europeans w. judaic faith had right to palestine.
    1. you tacitly posit the notion that signiority determines the right to abide in ones homes or even the right to exist.
    hebrews have indeed come into canaan. beyond that i don’t want to speculate.
    torah does speak of hebrews slaughter of all the canaanites including animals. so far, as far as i know, it hadn’t be confirmed by historians.
    in judges, one finds that benjamins and jebusites of j’lem have lived in peace together.
    but torah is often contradictory.
    but these were hebrews and not europeans. there is no shred of evidence that khazaro-europeans of judaic faith have any connection whatsoever with israelites who were utterly slain or dispersed by assyrians/canaanites.
    probably as a response to alleged crimes by hebrews against accursed (by noah) canaanites or hamites.
    no trace can be found od israelites.
    judeans also have been either slain or dispersed; or fled for dear life but to arab lands and not europe.
    no connection of khazars to judeans had been established to date.
    in ex-yugoslavia, expulsion of serbs, bosniaks, and croats after serb four aggressions did happen but not transfer of the population.
    also yugoslavia had not been partitioned by UN as had palestine.
    independence had been gained by warfare.
    it should be noted that the league of nations and UN after the war was vastly christian and could do whatever it wanted; including stealing or giving away land that wasn’t theirs to give away.

    it is estimated that some 800, 000 arab jews have left arab world to emigrate to israel. so, this belies your assertion that arabs did not tolerate judaists or christian. today there are still christians in palestine. thnx

  194. Deadbeat said on January 9th, 2009 at 11:12am #

    prof10 writes …

    In closing I would like to say thank you. Thank you to “Deadbeat”, “Bozh”, “Angry Peasant”, “Berg”, “Aarons” and all the other bigots who have contributed to this – you’ve written my lesson plans for me.

    I appreciate the company. It is shameful that prof10 is poisoning young minds teaching them how to think, act, and behave as racists.

  195. prof10 said on January 9th, 2009 at 11:16am #

    Bozh writes “today there are still christians in palestine”.

    And why is that? Because Palestine has been under ISRAELI rule. BUT – in Gaza and the West Bank since the return of Palestinian rule under the Oslo accords, the Christian population has been severely diminished.

    RE acceptance of Jews in the Arab world. There was a short period during the Golden Age of Islam when much of the Muslim world embraced Jews. But after that Jews (and all infidels) were considered “dhimmis” and were not by any stretch of the imagination “equal”. They had to pay special “dhimmi” taxes for “protection”; their testimony against a Muslim was considered irrelevant; they had to lower their eyes when passing a Muslim etc. And BTW the “880,000 Jews who left the Arab world did not “leave” – they were expelled or forced about by violent attacks against them. Today, Jews are not tolerated in most parts of the Muslim world. There are some small communities of elderly Jews numbering a few hundred or a few thousand who have remained despite the discrimination.

    BTW – this is an enlightening site for critics of the “Zionist entity” http://www.arabsforisrael.com/home.html. Read particularly the “Arab emails” section. These are people who live with Islam. They do not romanticize it like so many foolish Americans do.

  196. bozh said on January 9th, 2009 at 11:53am #

    prof10,
    read please Martin Gilbert’s book, Israel, a history. he writes as a friend of some israelis; consulting with or seeking advice from solely jews/israelis.
    iraq was a kingdom in ’48. it allowed immigration to those who applied to leave.
    king thought that at most 30td jews wld apply to leave. it turned out 90 applied to leave; they had to lose their possessions. Martin also says that the jews who did not apply to leave were frightened into leaving by israeli agents terror against them. p.258
    45 td jews leave, or as Martin said, “made their way from n.afrika to israel i ’49”.
    all bulgarian ‘jews’ (37td) left. 110td polish ‘jews’ left. and so on.
    the word “left” was used; never “expulsion”.
    does one think that saddam or iran sinc ethe fifties would allow ‘jews’ to leave and thus abet and aid hated zionists.
    but iran and iraq were under different rulers in ’49; friendly with US. recall also that USSR did not allow emigration of ‘jews’ after it found out that the ‘jews’ made a fool out of them.
    and remember the shibboleth by the zionists, Let my people go!
    thnx

  197. AEAZ said on January 13th, 2009 at 4:22am #

    Profio – you are insidious in your motivations and divisive in your aims…..aims which have successfully pitted every creed, religion and good people against one another. Even if in the end everyone believes the spin you omit, evil actions by any group of people or individual will most certainly come back two fold. Evil / racist actions by their very nature are self-defeating – aggressors will never escape divine law.

  198. Akhtarman said on February 27th, 2009 at 3:02pm #

    Well done! It takes a brave person to stand up to this riches, most powerful and most over-represented group!

    Mr. McGowan has the guts to stand up to this newest form of “McCarthyism”, which tries to prevent a real discussion of Jewish behaviour- especially in the area of covertness: the Neocons (mainly Jews) tricked the US into war with Iraq; they control US foreign policy via AIPAC; they have done so much spying (Rosenbergs, Pollard, Feith, etc.). Finally, the label of anti-Semitism prevents us from asking why so many of those who have been found guilty in these fraud cases are Jews (Spitzer, Nadel, Marcus Shrenker, Sonya Kohn, etc.)

    It takes a brave person to question this group. Although not as tough as I would like, McGowan shows guts. Much better than any of those cowards and “kept-slaves” in the US Congress or Senate! Much Better!!!!!

  199. Adam said on May 18th, 2009 at 4:04pm #

    JR, sorry I’m a little late on this one.

    However since you keep insisting on bringing up the Armenian genocide, (which by the way was wholly different to the other genocide you folk keep bringing up at the slightest opportunity), in a “look at those evil “moooosleeeeems, we jews are lovely” manner…..

    I’d like to enlighten you that ironically many in the “young Turks” were quite jewish. Many people have said even Attaturk may have had very extensive jewish roots, thus his failed war at removing Islam from Turkey and the slaughtering of many muslims with supposed influence along with the Armenians you like to support. Certainly makes you think does it not?

    Do your research please and not simply from books written by zionistically inclined folk.

  200. Lance Watson said on September 11th, 2009 at 12:24pm #

    ….Leading intellectual figures Noam Chomsky, Judith Butler and Anne McClintock have also recently endorsed the declaration, along with prominent Canadian writers Rawi Hage, Joy Kogawa, Dionne Brand, and Kerri Sakamoto. Celebrated local filmmakers Velcro Ripper, Min Sook Lee and Lynne Fernie have also signed the letter…..

    Toronto Declaration Unstoppable
    Despite a week of attacks, artists from around the world rush to sign the declaration
    TORONTO, ONTARIO–(Marketwire – Sept. 10, 2009) – The organizers of the Toronto Declaration – No Celebration of Occupation are pleased to announce that more than 1000 people from around the world-including many Israelis-have signed on in protest of TIFF’s City-to-City Spotlight on Tel Aviv. New signatories include music and cinematic legends Harry Belafonte and Julie Christie. Actor Viggo Mortensen, who will be attending this year’s festival, just added his name. Leading intellectual figures Noam Chomsky, Judith Butler and Anne McClintock have also recently endorsed the declaration, along with prominent Canadian writers Rawi Hage, Joy Kogawa, Dionne Brand, and Kerri Sakamoto. Celebrated local filmmakers Velcro Ripper, Min Sook Lee and Lynne Fernie have also signed the letter.

    International support for the declaration continues to grow despite denunciations, unfounded personal attacks on earlier signatories Jane Fonda and Danny Glover, and despite an aggressive campaign of misinformation regarding the letter’s content.

    The organizers want to make it clear that the letter does not call for a boycott of TIFF. Several of the signatories have much anticipated films in this year’s festival and many others plan to attend. Nor is it a protest against Israeli filmmakers, many of whom signed the letter. It is a statement of principled opposition to TIFF’s highly political decision to honor the city of Tel-Aviv with a celebratory “spotlight” this year.

    Such a celebration, especially in light of the recent Israeli attacks on Gaza, not only ignores Palestinian suffering, but also helps to whitewash Israel’s continued violations of international law. According to Naomi Klein, one declaration’s co-authors, “Publicly opposing TIFF’s decision is not an act of censorship, but its opposite: the use of cherished rights of freedom of speech and opinion.”

    In an effort to promote ongoing critical debate about Tel Aviv, Israel and Palestine, organizers will be holding a public forum featuring key signatories on Monday, September 14, 2009. There will be an opportunity for press to talk to spokespeople prior to the event, beginning at 5pm. Location and further details to follow.

    Wednesday, September 9, 2009
    The Toronto Declaration: No Celebration of Occupation

    An Open Letter to the Toronto International Film Festival:

    (Le texte français suit l’anglais – Spanish text also below)

    September 2, 2009

    As members of the Canadian and international film, culture and media arts communities, we are deeply disturbed by the Toronto International Film Festival’s decision to host a celebratory spotlight on Tel Aviv. We protest that TIFF, whether intentionally or not, has become complicit in the Israeli propaganda machine.

    In 2008, the Israeli government and Canadian partners Sidney Greenberg of Astral Media, David Asper of Canwest Global Communications and Joel Reitman of MIJO Corporation launched “Brand Israel,” a million dollar media and advertising campaign aimed at changing Canadian perceptions of Israel. Brand Israel would take the focus off Israel’s treatment of Palestinians and its aggressive wars, and refocus it on achievements in medicine, science and culture. An article in Canadian Jewish News quotes Israeli consul general Amir Gissin as saying that Toronto would be the test city for a promotion that could then be deployed around the world. According to Gissin, the culmination of the campaign would be a major Israeli presence at the 2009 Toronto International Film Festival. (Andy Levy-Alzenkopf, “Brand Israel set to launch in GTA,” Canadian Jewish News, August 28, 2008.)

    In 2009, TIFF announced that it would inaugurate its new City to City program with a focus on Tel Aviv. According to program notes by Festival co-director and City to City programmer Cameron Bailey, “The ten films in this year’s City to City programme will showcase the complex currents running through today’s Tel Aviv. Celebrating its 100th birthday in 2009, Tel Aviv is a young, dynamic city that, like Toronto, celebrates its diversity.

    The emphasis on ‘diversity’ in City to City is empty given the absence of Palestinian filmmakers in the program. Furthermore, what this description does not say is that Tel Aviv is built on destroyed Palestinian villages, and that the city of Jaffa, Palestine’s main cultural hub until 1948, was annexed to Tel Aviv after the mass exiling of the Palestinian population. This program ignores the suffering of thousands of former residents and descendants of the Tel Aviv/Jaffa area who currently live in refugee camps in the Occupied Territories or who have been dispersed to other countries, including Canada. Looking at modern, sophisticated Tel Aviv without also considering the city’s past and the realities of Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza strip, would be like rhapsodizing about the beauty and elegant lifestyles in white-only Cape Town or Johannesburg during apartheid without acknowledging the corresponding black townships of Khayelitsha and Soweto.

    We do not protest the individual Israeli filmmakers included in City to City, nor do we in any way suggest that Israeli films should be unwelcome at TIFF. However, especially in the wake of this year’s brutal assault on Gaza, we object to the use of such an important international festival in staging a propaganda campaign on behalf of what South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu, former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, and UN General Assembly President Miguel d’Escoto Brockmann have all characterized as an apartheid regime.

    This letter was drafted by the following ad hoc committee:

    Udi Aloni, filmmaker, Israel; Elle Flanders, filmmaker, Canada; Richard Fung, video artist, Canada; John Greyson, filmmaker, Canada; Naomi Klein, writer and filmmaker, Canada; Kathy Wazana, filmmaker, Canada; Cynthia Wright, writer and academic, Canada; b h Yael, film and video artist, Canada

    Endorsed By:
    hmad Abdalla, Filmmaker, Egypt
    Hany Abu-Assad, Filmmaker, Palestine
    Mark Achbar, Filmmaker, Canada
    Zackie Achmat, AIDS activist, South Africa
    Ra’anan Alexandrowicz, Filmmaker, Jerusalem
    Anthony Arnove, Publisher and Producer, USA
    Ruba Atiyeh, Documentary Director, Lebanon
    Joslyn Barnes, Writer and Producer, USA
    Harry Belafonte, Musician/Actor, USA
    John Berger, Author, France
    Walter Bernstein, Screenwriter/Film Producer, USA
    Dionne Brand, Poet/Writer, Canada
    Daniel Boyarin, Professor, USA
    Judith Butler, Professor, USA
    David Byrne, Musician, USA
    Noam Chomsky, Professor, USA
    Julie Christie, Actor, USA
    Guy Davidi Director, Israel
    Na-iem Dollie, Journalist/Writer, South Africa
    Igor Drljaca, Filmmaker, Canada
    Eve Ensler, Playwright, Author, USA
    Eyal Eithcowich, Director, Israel
    Lynne Fernie, Filmmaker and Programmer, Canada
    Sophie Fiennes, Filmmaker, UK
    Peter Fitting, Professor, Canada
    Jane Fonda, Actor and Author, USA
    Danny Glover, Filmmaker and Actor, USA
    Noam Gonick, Director, Canada
    Malcolm Guy, Filmmaker, Canada
    Rawi Hage, Writer, Canada
    Anne Henderson, Filmmaker, Canada
    Mike Hoolboom, Filmmaker, Canada
    Annemarie Jacir, Filmmaker, Palestine
    Gordon Jackson, Jazz Musician, South Africa
    Fredric Jameson, Literary Critic, USA
    Juliano Mer Khamis, Filmmaker, Jenin/Haifa
    Bonnie Sherr Klein Filmmaker, Canada
    Joy Kogawa, Writer, Canada
    Paul Laverty, Producer, UK
    Min Sook Lee, Filmmaker, Canada
    Paul Lee, Filmmaker, Canada
    Yael Lerer, publisher, Tel Aviv
    Mark Levine, Professor, USA
    Jack Lewis, Filmmaker, South Africa
    Ken Loach, Filmmaker, UK
    Arab Lotfi, Filmmaker, Egypt/Lebanon
    Kyo Maclear, Author, Toronto
    Mahmood Mamdani, Professor, USA
    Fatima Mawas, Filmmaker, Australia
    Anne McClintock, Professor, USA
    Tessa McWatt, Author, Canada and UK
    Viggo Mortensen, Actor, USA
    Cornelius Moore, Film Distributor, USA
    Yousry Nasrallah, Director, Egypt
    Joan Nestle, Writer, USA
    Rebecca O’Brien, Producer, UK
    Pratibha Parmar, Producer/Director, UK
    Anand Patwardhan, Documentary Film Maker, India
    Jeremy Pikser, Screenwriter, USA
    John Pilger, Filmmaker, UK
    Shai Carmeli Pollak, Filmmaker, Israel
    Ian Iqbal Rashid, Filmmaker, Canada
    Judy Rebick, Professor, Canada
    David Reeb, Artist, Tel Aviv
    B. Ruby Rich, Critic and Professor, USA
    Wallace Shawn, Playwright, Actor, USA
    Eyal Sivan, Filmmaker and Scholar, Paris/London/Sderot
    Elia Suleiman, Fimmlaker, Nazareth/Paris/New York
    Eran Torbiner, Filmmaker, Israel
    Alice Walker, Writer, USA
    Thomas Waugh, Professor, Canada
    Christian Wiener Freso, President – Union of Peruvian Filmmakers, Peru
    Debra Zimmerman, Executive Director Women Make Movies, USA
    Howard Zinn, Writer, USA
    Slavoj Zizek, Professor, Slovenia

  201. Shabnam said on September 11th, 2009 at 1:37pm #

    [Despite a week of attacks, artists from around the world rush to sign the declaration]

    The reason behind their willingness to sign this declaration is because HAS NO TEETH AND is hundred percent safe since DOES NOT ASK FOR BOYCOTT OF FESTIVAL. Despite the fact that this petition does not demand for boycott, yet the racist Zionists are mad that is taking place. For example, one who signed this petition is the Zionist enabler, Jane Fonda, who has fallen in love with the apartheid state in 1980 when she went to Israel and has visited the apartheid state many times since her love with Israel at first sight.
    She came to rescue one of the Zionists who left a comment at her website and was afraid of this petition to get out of hand. Jane assures her by writing the following lines:
    [The letter we signed did not —repeats: DID NOT–call for a boycott of any part of the Toronto Film Festival. In fact, many of the people who signed the letter are showing films there and many of the Israeli filmmakers that go to the festival show films critical of Israel. We protest the use of Tel Aviv to rebrand Israel. We are standing up for integrity of art, not censoring anyone. The letter certainly did not call for the destruction of Israel or call into question the legitimacy of Tel Aviv as a city. But In the year when Gaza happened there shouldn’t be a celebratory spotlight on Tel Aviv.]
    At least we should give some credits to this Zionist enabler for not wanting to celebrate after GAZA genocide compare to Nadine Gordimer, the novelist, who is known for being anti apartheid in south Africa yet she travelled to Israel to celebrate “Israel at 60” with other Zionist Jews, sixty years of killing, apartheid and confiscating Palestinian land, although many activists including Palestinians asked her not to go but all their words were dropped on her deaf ear. It was more important to please the racist Zionists than honoring toddlers who were burnt to dead by phosphorous bombs.

    http://janefonda.com/trying-to-keep-up-with-false-rumors/