Soap Opera

“Montreal Jew sells concentration camp soap”, says Ynet.

Abraham Botines, the owner of a World War II collectibles shop, is under fire for selling bars of soap made in 1940 Nazi death camps. The items are for sale for just $300.

Botines, 73, the holocaust souvenir merchant, is the owner of a small antiques shop in Montreal and has recently added the soap, made in the concentration camps in Poland, to his list of collectibles.

The Spanish-born Jew sells numerous items from World War II, including Nazi soldiers’ former belongings. Apparently, his recent decision to sell soap from the concentration camps has evoked the anger of many members of Montreal’s Jewish community.

I am left puzzled here. I really fail to grasp the holocaust exchange rate. Apparently, to ethnically cleanse Palestine in the name of the holocaust is ‘totally fine’. To keep Palestinians in concentration camps, starve them and pour white phosphorous over their heads in the name of the shoa is ‘kosher’. To invade Iraq or nuke Iran in the name of Jewish suffering is ‘totally acceptable’, yet, pocketing $300 out of a ‘shoa soap bar’ is regarded as a crime by some Jews in Montreal.

Botines says he is not selling the items to promote Nazi propaganda, but to “preserve the memory of the Holocaust”. I think that this is totally reasonable. For just $300 you can have your own holocaust museum in your bath cabinet. I guess that it is just a question of time before we have the Wannsee Protocol on toilet paper available for general consumption.

Interestingly enough, representatives of the Jewish community in Montreal have requested that the police investigate the matter, and “examine whether the soap really was made from human fat.”

It is now a widely accepted fact that the Nazis didn’t make soap out of human fat.1 However, one crucial question is left open: what kind of people can come up with such a horrible phantasmic tale? What kind of people invent a story in which other people transform them into soap?

  1. Bill Hutman, “Nazis never made human-fat soap,” Jerusalem Post – International Edition, week ending May 5, 1990. “Holocaust Expert Rejects Charge That Nazis Made Soap from Jews,” Northern California Jewish Bulletin, April 27, 1990. (JTA dispatch from Tel Aviv.) Facsimile in Christian News, May 21, 1990, p. 19. []
Gilad Atzmon, now living in London, was born in Israel and served in the Israeli military. He is the author of The Wandering Who and Being in Time and is one of the most accomplished jazz saxophonists in Europe. He can be reached via his website. Read other articles by Gilad, or visit Gilad's website.

62 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. Rehmat said on March 30th, 2010 at 6:01pm #

    hortense – Dr. Norman Finkelstein, too, doesn’t believe in the “Six Million Died” myth either. Gilad Atzmon on ther other hand never challenged the myth, but do hate Zionist Jews and Israel using the myth to blackmail other nations.

    Professor W.D. Rubenstein wrote:”If the Holocaust can be shown to be a Zionist myth, the strongest of all weapons in Israel’s propaganda armoury collapses.”

    Gilad Atzmon is an Israeli-born British jazz musician, a novelist, a blogger and an anti-Zionism activist. His writings and talks are very critical of Zionist-regime, Judaism, British government’s blind support for Israel and the Jewish lobby groups working for the interests of a foreign country (Israel). Gilad has recorded nine albums so far and his album Exile was BBC Jazz Album of the Year in 2003. His music mostly addresses the Middle East conflict. His two novels have been translated into 22 languages……

    Gilad Atzmon: “Proud to be a self-hating Jew”

  2. Jonas Rand said on March 30th, 2010 at 11:27pm #

    Hortense: This is not a Holocaust Denial site, but some of its members, such as Rehmat above, seem to dispute some claims about the Holocaust. Others feel that what is commonly said of the Holocaust is mostly accurate, like myself, but that the Israel lobby and some intellectuals have used it as a sort of pretext for Israel’s atrocities against the Palestinians.

    Norman Finkelstein is not a holocaust denier. He believes, as do I, that the Holocaust is being manipulated and exploited to justify the war crimes of the state of Israel and, in doing so, those of the United States. Noam Chomsky, has, on occasion, made comments to that effect relating to the explosive growth of Holocaust museums across the country. This disparity occurred to me when I asked myself, “Why are Holocaust museums so common while there are no museums (to my knowledge) relating to the largest genocide since the Holocaust, that of the East Timorese? Why is it being covered up by the media while the Holocaust is being used in connection with Israel, if not to provide a pretext for atrocities in the occupied territories?” Nonetheless, this is not an excuse for anti-Semitism, which should not be condoned by this Board.

  3. Mulga Mumblebrain said on March 30th, 2010 at 11:49pm #

    Human soap is apparently a myth,like the myths of the exodus from Egypt, David’s great kingdom and many others. We know that the Nazi Judeocide is not a myth,and we also know that it has been ruthlessly and despicably exploited by Zionists to justify Zionist crimes against humanity, committed against its many victims and to vilify and intimidate critics of Zionism and Israel. The Holocaust has been turned into a necrophiliac state religion in the West, particularly the US, by Jewish money power. While Holocaust Memorials and Museums proliferate, there are none or few,commemorating the vastly greater genocide of the extermination of the indigenous Americans, and few or none commemorating the victims of the Atlantic slave trade. Zionists have even, in the past, attempted to aid the Turkish establishment to deny the Armenian genocide. As far as I understand Finkelstein he finds the manipulation of the Judeocide to ‘shakedown’ various governments for money, and to somehow attempt to use this tragedy to justify the decades of barbarity inflicted on the Palestinians, Lebanese and others, repulsive, and I could not agree more.

  4. mary said on March 31st, 2010 at 1:19am #

    To save further bother, why doesn’t Israel relocate to Canada. All the ethnic cleaning has been completed so there is plenty of room for expansion and they would be made extremely welcome by Harper & co..

  5. Rehmat said on March 31st, 2010 at 6:26am #

    I like your suggestion Mary.

    The dupe Zionist should be relocated to Canada, which Israeli Ambassador in Ottawa has called the “best ally” of Israel under Stephen Harper’s government. Harper himself said last year: “Criticism of Israel is old-fashioned anti-Semitism”. The dupe in his self-denial forgot that Israel is not a Jewish state but a “socialist imperialism” – whose very first president Chaim Weizzman was the president of Russian Socialist Party.

    Ironically, it was only in the 1950s – that Ottawa allowed Europe’s unwanted Jews to enter Canada against the wishes of the local Israel Lobby.

    Kent: Attack on Israel is an attack on Canada

  6. Rehmat said on March 31st, 2010 at 7:26am #

    Anti-Semistism and Holocaust denying is the two political tools invented by the atheist Zionis Jews. Readers don’t have to take my word – just listen to a Jewish professor at University of Montreal, Yakov M. Rabkinis, who has explained the term, not to the liking of Israeli Hasbara whiners on this website, as: “To fight anti-Semitism, it’s crucial to dissociate Jews and Judaism from the state of Israel and its behaviour. Our parliamentarians should affirm the right of all Canadians to criticize Israel like any other country in the world without the fear of being labelled ‘anti-Semitic’. This would be a sure way to rid Canada of the scourge of anti-Semitism, new and old”…..

    Canadian “vassals of Israel”

  7. bozh said on March 31st, 2010 at 8:37am #

    Please let the free speech freely flow. Say anything u want, it is ok with me. One caveat, tho: a label, any label, such as antisemitic, anticatholic, racist, et al do not explain much nor proffer an elucidation.
    So, calling s’mbody antisemitic for anything a person says ab the holocaust appears waste of time.

    Let’s face it, people deny some events. Or don’t agree with numbers givne for slain people.

    In add’n, it is not possible biologicly to hate any human or animal for merely being just that; one always is angry with a human who either does a wrong or is perceived as doing a wrong.

    If a ‘jew’, pole, italian, uzbek considers self first of all a human and then wife, mother, friend, uzbek, etc., and only after this a catholic, jew, moslem no harm arises out of this to other humans or animals.

    But once the sane and natural order of evaluation is reversed we have wars, hatred, anger, frustration, exploitation, expulsion, etc.
    However, most ‘jews’ appear to be first of all ‘jews’; i.e., members of a cult and only after that human.
    Most ‘jews’ say-believe that they are chosen; thus, explictly denying that the are human. [Btw, ‘jews’ are a multi-ethnicity and not a people]
    And all cults i know of are extremely perilous and a large cult like the talmudic especially so.
    It also seems that people aren’t denying nazi crimes. Perhaps a few are. Most are doubting the numbers given and the ways it was done.
    I think this rule shld apply: do not label even what a person says let alone the person; instead, juxtapose ur own wishes, conclusions, suggestions, and facts.

    Labeling a person or what s/he says is OK once one had accurately-adequately described an event or what a person stands for; so to save time by not redescribing an event. In short, in order to save time.

    It wld be more humane for those people who are addcited to labeling to say : to me u are a racist or antisemite. I other words, don’t speak for all humans!
    However, anytime s’mbody calls me an antisemite, i am proud of that! tnx

  8. jon s said on March 31st, 2010 at 10:44am #

    Mary, First of all thanks for your suggestion, but Canada’s climate is way too cold for us, so no thanks.
    Seriously, the point is that criticism of Israel’s actions and policies is certainly legitimate – and I happen to be highly critical myself – but some of the posters here engage in attacks on the Jewish people (the myth of “Jewish power”), on elements of the Jewish faith (even the holidays!) on Israel’s very right to exist and promote Holocaust denial.
    And, Mary, I see that you’re “anti the killing of Palestinian men women and children”. Why can’t you say that you’re against the killing of all innocent people , including Israeli civilians?

  9. mary said on March 31st, 2010 at 11:58am #

    jon s As you know (and you are probably being disingenuous) the first is extra judicial execution carried out by a cruel Occupier state. The second is action carried by oppressed individuals resisting that illegal Occupation, El Nakba.

    I deplore all killing and I am repelled by any division of human worth
    such as the Holocaust Memorial Trust maintain by denying many other holocausts so that the Jewish deaths in WW2 are seen to be
    unique, or nearly so.

  10. RH2 said on March 31st, 2010 at 12:35pm #

    No one would be tempted to put the Holocaust in question had it not been exaggerated and misused as propaganda industry. I once sympathized with the Jewish victims of Nazi crimes. But as I read the story of those dusty little children remaining silent in the dark beside the bodies of their dead moms in Gaza last year and heard the Israeli colonists boasting of Cast Lead as selfdefence, I have for always lost my sympathy with European Jewish victims. Am I now an “Anti-Semite”?

  11. jon s said on April 1st, 2010 at 1:46am #

    (This is my second attempt to reply. The first was deleted.)
    Mary, I’m assuming that the killing of innocent Israeli civilians is included in the killings that you deplore.
    Unfortunately there have been all too many genocides, all of them horrific and undeniable. However there are aspects of the Jewish Holocaust which do make it unique.

    RH2, I don’t see what one has to do with the other. What does the question of whether or not Cast Lead constituted self-defense have to do with your ability to sympathize with the victims of the Holocaust?

  12. Mulga Mumblebrain said on April 1st, 2010 at 3:13am #

    jon, of course the Nazi Judeocide was ‘unique’ in that manner in which every event in history is unique,ie not absolutely like any other.But we know that for the Judaic supremacists, (in which camp I place you), it was ‘unique’ in a different manner, ie its victims were and are ‘unique’, in that they are God’s Chosen People, as unlike the rest of humanity as humanity is unlike animals (paraphrasing Rabbi Kook the Elder). Indeed I remember one wealthy, hugely powerful, Zionist lunatic accusing the Nazis of attempted deicide, in that the Jews are actually a manifestation of God. The Judeocide is also unique in that it has been used as the justification for the mass murder,dispossession, terrorising and vilification of other peoples by the victims of the earlier genocide. As for the killing of innocent Israelis, there are, of course, degrees of innocence. Those who are the beneficiaries of ethnic cleansing,violent dispossession and murder, living in comfort on the land from which their victims were violently expelled, citizens of a state that murders children, tortures, terrorises and imprisons an entire people are, in my opinion,less ‘innocent’ than their victims. Indeed the prime responsibility for the deaths of relatively innocent Israelis lies with the same people responsible for the deaths of one hundred times as many innocent Palestinians and thousands of times more deaths of innocents in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon etc-the Israeli ruling elites, as much fascists as any Nazi or Phalangist, the Zionist Jews and their Sabbat Goy stooges in the West, who support them no matter what their crimes, and various apologists for racist brutality, such as yourself.

  13. jon s said on April 1st, 2010 at 4:09am #

    Mulga, I’m coming to the conclusion that answering you is largely futile, in that you don’t really “listen” to what I’m saying. No matter how many times I’ve declared my belief in the equal worth of all human life, you’ll still call me a “supremacist” and refer once again to Rabbi Kook or the “Yesha” rabbis, which is like referring solely to the KuKluxKlan to “prove” a point about the US.
    I do wonder where you get your image of Israel from , which I can assure you and the other readers of the forum, is very far removed from reality. Have you ever actually visited Israel and/or the Palestinian territories?

  14. Mulga Mumblebrain said on April 1st, 2010 at 8:38am #

    The thing is jon, that your apologias for Israel and your professions of belief in the equality of all life are mutually exclusive,so I suspect your veracity. To say that the Yesha Council of Rabbis and Torah Sages, and Rabbi Kook the Elder, a former Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi of Palestine, are peripheral figures on the level of the Klu KluxKlan, in my opinion, reveals further looseness wit the facts. Kook and the Yesha Rabbis represent a tendency in Israeli life, ruthless, racist, supremacist and violent, that now dominates Israeli politics and actions, and to argue otherwise is, I believe, simply rubbish. I’m still waiting for you to admit the undeniable-that ‘Passover’ celebrates genocide, as does Purim. You obviously care so little for the lives of non-Jews, again sign of contradictions in your professed beliefs, that the slaughter of all the first-born in Egypt, young and old, male and female, even animals, save for the Jews, is a matter of such little consequence that you seemingly see it as absolutely of no interest, particularly in comparison to the Jews ‘liberation’. You don’t bother to deny the genocide-you simply ignore it. I wonder how many other people would see the liberation of their people from servitude as being more important than the genocide of another people? In fact the Nazis could even have twisted their abominable crime of murdering millions of Jews into a ‘price worth paying’ for liberating Germans from ‘Jewish dominance’. In fact I believe they did argue along such lines, and the world, or the civilised portion of it, finds such ‘arguments’ evil and repellent.

  15. mary said on April 1st, 2010 at 9:38am #

    Barbarians at the gates of Gaza, again, and again. No names are sufficient. I have written of vengeance being strong within these chosen people – Talmud style. Gilad Shalit is part of this. 11000 Palestinians in prison with about 300 children is not equivalent to one French/Israeli with a kipvah.

    Palestinians: IDF drops leaflets over Gaza warning of imminent attack

    The Israel Defense Forces on Thursday denied Palestinian reports that its troops had disseminated notices over a residential area of the Gaza Strip warning of an upcoming military strike.

    Palestinians reported that Israel dropped thousands of leaflets overnight, warning residents to “wait for the response tomorrow.”

    Witnesses said the flyers were dropped in several locations on the border of the salient, including the area east of Khan Younis, where two IDF soldiers and two militants were killed in a clash last weekend.

    Meanwhile, Israel Navy patrol boats opened fire at a Palestinian fishing vessel off the coast of Gaza early Thursday, an IDF spokesman in Tel Aviv said.

    He said the Palestinian boat had strayed into waters off-limits to Palestinian fishermen, and did not heed orders to halt, causing the
    Israeli ships to fire warning shots.

    There were no reports of injuries or damage.

  16. Mulga Mumblebrain said on April 1st, 2010 at 11:18am #

    mary, actually the Zionazi calculus of the equivalence between Jewish lives and those of the ‘human dust’, ‘two-legged animals’ and ‘drugged cockroaches’ who are the Palestinians, is actually infinite. Our friend jon betrays just such a belief, although he attempts to square the circle and claim to be both Zionist and a believer in human equality. To be generous he must be kidding himself,or to be cruel but fair, he is being disingenuous. I suspect the latter, if for no other reason than he smiply cannot bring himself to admit the undeniable-that Passover celebrates genocide, even if a mythological one.

  17. jon s said on April 1st, 2010 at 12:25pm #

    Mary – I was wondering why you refer to the Talmud, how much do you actually know about the Talmud, or do you just throw the term around as an epithet. And what’s a “kipvah”?
    Mulga -reply forthcoming.

  18. mary said on April 1st, 2010 at 1:35pm #

    You are so s-l- y you are almost amusing and just like the fox that is after my chickens.

    You know very well that kipyah was a typo for kippah – – which Monsieur Shalit was pictured wearing.

    You asked me about the Talmud before and I gave you an answer then.

  19. RH2 said on April 1st, 2010 at 1:41pm #

    I am not going to talk about the Talmud, but about the present time. Mulga suspects your veracity. I share this suspicion and cannot see your claims as fair-minded or genuine. Your belief in the uniqueness of the Holocaust points at some cultish mind set. What has the misuse of the Holocaust to do with my difficulty to sympathize with the real victims of the Nazi crimes? Well, the Zionist marketing has made the Holocaust an excuse for Israeli crimes against Palestinians. After 60 years of distortion and criminal behaviour one becomes blunt and does not care about the Holocaust and its industry that much. Perhaps I lie to myself, but I think I feel nothing for the Nazi victims anymore since the Israeli “self-defence” through Cast Lead.

  20. jon s said on April 1st, 2010 at 3:13pm #

    Mulga,First of all, I never claimed that the story of Passover is historical, I agree that what we’re discussing here is the mythology.
    Passover is a celebration of a people’s liberation from slavery, and as such has been an inspiration and example for liberation movements for generations. To call it a celebration of genocide is a malicious libel or simply ignorance.
    In reference to the 10th plague, the killing of the first born – it’s indeed morally troubling and Jewish sages have grappled with the topic in their commentaries and discussions for hundred of years. (I don’t have the space or time to go into the details of the discussions here). In any case, in the story, the Hebrew slaves don’t kill anybody : the plague is presented as God’s judgment. Certainly there is no celebration of the killing. There’s a well-known midrash according to which God reprimands the angels for starting to sing hymns of praise when the Egyptians are drowning in the sea. The message being that one shouldn’t gloat at the death of one’s enemies.
    See here:
    and here:

    and elsewhere..
    The main point is that in practice , during the Seder, the iconic ceremony of Passover , there is no such celebration. On the contrary , at a certain point in the Seder, drops of wine are dripped from our cups to remind us that our liberation was at the expense of others. I’d like to know whether other nations , in their various national holidays and independence days , in which historical or mythological victories are celebrated, mention their enemies casualties.
    One last point: We can’t in fairness expect that present-day sensibilities and norms , in respect to enemy populations in warfare, be present in such an ancient holiday, which came into being at a time when the victors would usually just slaughter the losers. In that context, I would say that the sensitivity that is displayed in the Passover story is admirable.

  21. mary said on April 1st, 2010 at 8:09pm #

    Any drops of wine dripped from your cups for the Palestinians in Gaza or is it the vinegar soaked sponge for them again in their suffering on this Good Friday?

    As promised, the Israelis carried out 13 air ‘strikes’ overnight. How cruel as they shiver in their makeshift tents and the mothers cuddle their children terrified all over again.

    The BBC report omits to mention that over 90 Palestinians have been killed by the IOF since the end of Cast Lead in January 2009.

  22. mary said on April 1st, 2010 at 8:26pm #

    From a medialens contributor Keith. I have added the BBC titles. Lyons in the Chairman. Thompson the Director General decided that the BBC would not support the DEC appeal after Cast Lead.

    email to bbc on latest news report, “strikes” vs “attacks”
    Posted by Keith on April 2, 2010, 3:50 am

    Dear Michael Lyons

    helenboaden.complaints at, (Head of News)
    steve.herrmann at, (Head of World News)
    mark.thompson at, (Director General)
    jeremy.bowen at, (Senior ME Reporter)

    “Thirteen Israeli air strikes hit Gaza Strip”.

    Again the BBC’s habitual bias is evident in this latest news report; the first thing to note is that whilst this latest Israeli military action is simply described by the BBC as “strikes” (and later as “raids”), the earlier Israeli incursion into Gaza leading to the death of two of its soldiers is misleadingly referred to as “attacks” by Palestinians. That is quite an inversion of reality. Palestinians responding to an Israeli incursion have their actions described as “attacks” by the BBC, yet these latest attacks by the Israeli military are merely described as “strikes”.

    Also, the BBC describes the Israeli bombing of “workshops, farms, a milk factory”, “police stations and training facilities” (injuring several Palestinian children and an infant) as “retaliation”, but as we know, the Israelis were following up their earlier incursion (not a Palestinian attack), and are more accurately wreaking revenge on otherwise defenseless Palestinians.

    Such naked bias by the BBC needs to stop.

    Again, the bias as predicted in an earlier email continues; the BBC mentions the only two Israelis killed in Gaza in over a year, but neglects to mention the much higher number of Palestinians killed (including the two from the same incident that led to the deaths of the two Israelis). This report is actually reporting on the latest Palestinian casualties, but rather than give a count of Palestinian casualties the BBC instead prefers to give us a count of Israeli deaths. A bias that was easy to predict because it is ever present in BBC news reports. A bias that continues with the mention of a “stepped up” single rocket fired earlier from Gaza whilst failing to mention any previous Israeli fire.

    The BBC also fails to mention the illegality of the settlement building on occupied Palestinian land, and that the UK’s David Miliband called such activity by Israel “illegal” and an “obstacle” to peace. (

    I will continue to keep you informed.

    Yours Sincerely.

    Keith Granger

  23. jon s said on April 1st, 2010 at 10:19pm #

    …and you omit any mention of the rockets fired at southern Israel.

  24. woody said on April 1st, 2010 at 11:52pm #

    “I would say that the sensitivity that is displayed in the Passover story is admirable”, says Jon.

    The sort of “sensitivity” that puts Palestinians under military closure and blocks access to their Holy Sites during Easter…

    By the way, YOU omit to mention the almost daily Israeli air raids and the vicious 3-year blockade. And if Israel sends armed troops into Gaza and they come under fire and two are killed it’s no use getting all upset. What do you expect? It’s part of a disgusting game of provocation in order to inflict more destruction, more misery.

  25. Maien said on April 2nd, 2010 at 12:27am #

    Come on, jon s. Many of us see through your rhetoric. It’s very difficult to not know about Zionism in today’s world. The world is witnessing, talking and learning the truth. I’m thankful that Mulga throws doses of reality at your … comments. And he does it so eloquently, as well.

  26. Mulga Mumblebrain said on April 2nd, 2010 at 12:53am #

    Thanks to maien,woody and mary for backing up my statements. jon apprises us of certain elements of the Passover celebrations that mitigate the genocidal aspect of the festival. That is all well and good, and I have never denied that some Jews practice a variant of their narcissistic cult that is markedly less violent and contemptuous of non-Jews. Unfortunately the power in Israel these days, as exemplified by Israeli practice, ie cowardly brutality, child-murder, assassination,mass torture, illegal siege and collective punishment (a war crime) all of which the ‘Zionist Leftist’ jon, is an apologist for , is the more brutal strain of Judaism, represented by the settler fundamentalists, that makes no pretense that it does not hold non-Jews and the Palestinians in particular, in absolute, murderous, contempt.
    The essence of your hypocrisy jon,is that you argue that the halfway decent Jews, and their type of Judaism,is the norm in Israel. In fact,of course, that is not true. In Israel the fundamentalists, every bit, if not more, as vile as any Islamic fanatic, Christian Dominionist or other zealot or Hindutva fascist, run the show,and it is those vicious murderers and their depraved take on Judaism that you end up defending.Then when called out, you retreat to quoting some more humanistic strain of Judaism, a tendency that the fundamentalist despise almost as much as they do non-Jews. Then you reveal your true features by whining about skyrockets launched into Israel, that have, thankfully, killed no-one since the orgy of child-murder of Cast Lead, a period during which, as mary points out, Israel has killed over 90 Gazans, and the brutal, vicious and evil siege has been intensified. You transparently value Jewish lives as vastly more important that non-Jews, yet, mendaciously in my opinion, claim to value all lives equally. I cannot but come to the conclusion that you are a prime humbug.

  27. asceptic said on April 2nd, 2010 at 1:33am #

    Jon, you write: “In reference to the 10th plague, the killing of the first born – it’s indeed morally troubling and Jewish sages have grappled with the topic in their commentaries and discussions for hundred of years.”

    The “Jewish sages” may have “grappled”, but they seem not to have outlawed. Since the founding of the State of Israel – and indeed before its official establishment – its representatives have been on an orgy of killing the first born, second, third …. indeed, their parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts … and then these child killers, child abusers and arresters, return home and they or their government representatives, declare themselves the eternal victim. Israel has become the neighbour from hell. The cuckoo in the Middle East nest and the deserved international well of sympathy for a vast historical injustice, is fast running dry.

    Here, in the real world, there are many that are indeed: “morally troubled.”

    Oh, and there are many who would revere a pilgrimage at Easter, to the “green hill far away … where our dear Lord was crucified, and died to save us all.” Or at Christmas, to “the little town …” where this Jewish carpenter was born, revered by Christians and Muslims too. But of course, they’d unlikely get through the border crossings, checkpoints, erected by “the only democracy in the Middle East.”

  28. jon s said on April 2nd, 2010 at 2:50am #

    Mulga,I belong to the Left, because I believe in democracy and socialism and human rights for all and strive for peace . You support clerical-fascist terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. Where does that put you? Certainly not on the Left.

  29. Deadbeat said on April 2nd, 2010 at 3:03am #

    jon s writes …

    belong to the Left, because I believe in democracy and socialism and human rights for all and strive for peace .

    It is impossible to claim to be on the Left and shill for Zionism but unfortunately there are too many folks who claim to be on the “left” and shill for Zionism.

  30. mary said on April 2nd, 2010 at 4:17am #

    Off topic Mulga but as you’re an Aussie I thought it might tickle you. Your (Zionist supporting) Mr. Rudd doesn’t seem to have a sense of humour and even ended up upsetting the Alabama Governor. See Annette’s comment!

    PS I see Jon s studiously ignored Asceptic’s good comment.

  31. jon s said on April 2nd, 2010 at 7:50am #

    I’m supposed to now deny that we’re engaged in an “orgy of killing”? I also deny that I’m a serial rapist.
    And for your information the Christian Good Friday is being peacefully observed today in Jerusalem, in Bethlehem. Haven’t heard of any disruptions.

  32. mary said on April 2nd, 2010 at 9:39am #

    The fog seems to have descended on Goodwin Sands (a marine area off the SE coast of the UK). Nothing has disappeared today. I have been copying as we went along. Now it seems that anti-semitism=comments on an attack on a captive population (collective punishment which is illegal under international law).

    Hotense is another troll and her rubbish was removed right at the beginning.

    Another shipwreck? –

    From Wikipedia – The Goodwin Sands are a 10-mile-long sand bank in the English Channel, lying six miles east of Deal in Kent, England. As the shoals lie close to major shipping channels, more than 2,000 ships are believed to have been wrecked upon them, and as a result they are marked by numerous lightships and buoys. Notable shipwrecks include the VOC ship Rooswijk, HMS Stirling Castle, the SS Montrose, which once carried the convicted murderer Dr. Crippen, and the South Goodwin Lightship.

  33. bozh said on April 2nd, 2010 at 9:43am #

    u’r right. A socialist is not a land robber or murderer!

    wld u please not generalize. If facts we present are not facts to u, why not posit ur own facts that wld automaticly debunk our facts. What are u scared of? U seem to be, to me!! tnx

  34. bozh said on April 2nd, 2010 at 1:43pm #

    I was not aware that rehmat said holocaust is a myth. If i he said it, saying it is fact. I, self, don’t dwell on the actual deaths of poles, gypsies, or ‘jews’, soviets.
    I said in ur post that there is some antisemitism on DV. I asked u not generalize but produce facts.
    In do agree that rehmat was wrong in calling the holocaust a myth. Instead of labeling he shld have posited own figures.

    But rehmat still clings to the knowledge 1 of 500 ad, while i cling to knowledge 2 of 2010.
    Of course, ‘jews’ still adhere to knowledge 3 of life as it had been 3.3k yrs ago.
    Christians allow only the knowledge 4 of two k yrs ago.
    And all of these cultists run to hospital or doctor when sick. It seems they abandon gods in a jiffy, any time they feel sick.
    Now a talmudnik wld call me antisemite; a cathoilc an anti-italian [or whatever] and
    Rehmat calls me islamophobic. And my life ended. Since i also believe in voodoo craft or magic of words. I’ll let u know if i am dead tomorrow!
    And i am afraid all three cults!

  35. goodwin sands said on April 2nd, 2010 at 2:50pm #

    Bozh, Rehmat’s very first sentence refers to ‘the “Six Million Died” myth’.

    Given the number of responses that have disappeared from this thread – a frequent enough occurence on this site that Mary makes a habit of saving on-going threads on the presumption that parts will silently disappear – but given also that Rehmat’s Holocaust denial stays, I think any rational reader would be left scratching his or her head about the unevenness of the editorial process here.

  36. Jonas Rand said on April 2nd, 2010 at 10:48pm #

    All right, I agree that ‘jon s’ is somewhat pro-Israeli, but are all these claims and assumptions that he is simply a troll or a hatemonger who blindly defends Israel merely unfounded rumors? I must agree that some of the comments, 98% of which come from Rehmat, can come off as intolerant of Jews and non-Muslims. So, where is the evidence that he is trying to undermine the purposes of DV?

  37. jon s said on April 3rd, 2010 at 12:04am #

    I hope I haven’t become the issue here. I’m an Israeli, active on the Israeli Left. I’m certainly not a hatemonger, as anyone who reads my comments knows. I vehemently oppose the Netanyahu-Lieberman-Barak government and so I certainly don’t “blindly defend ” it’s policies. I don’t know about being a “troll”, I’ve read Tolkien and would rather be a hobbit.

  38. mary said on April 3rd, 2010 at 2:13am #

    Just hope you’re not an Israeli settler in Hebron! Such neighbourly behaviour.

    Goodwin Sands – I have not been copying the comments here in order to carry out some audit trail but I have been sending them since I posted the news of the Israeli air strikes on April 1st, 2010 at 8:09pm to a group of friends who are as outraged as I am about them.

    I happen to remember that the very first remark by Hortense to Gilad’s article had gone as had one of Jon s’s. The editors provide this site and it is their prerogative to publish whatever they decide. You have no idea of the muck that used to descend from the Hasbara brigade before registration was mandatory. As I said before to Hortense, you know what to do if you don’t like it. We have all had comments taken off for all sorts of reasons – too lengthy, off topic, etc – so stop being so paranoid.

    And any comments from you on the latest atrocities on a captive civilian population in Gaza? Probably not.

  39. Mulga Mumblebrain said on April 3rd, 2010 at 4:11am #

    You’re right mary-jon was slow to deny asceptic’s cogent observations, but he did in the end. Of course jon keeps coming up with these contradictory positions.He’s an Israeli, so he is a citizen of a violent, expansionist, racist state, completely contemptuous of international law, run by an evil and deranged rabble of fascists and religious fundamentalists, who are keeping an entire population of millions prisoners, while murdering, torturing and disappearing those who resist or simply become ‘collateral damage’.But unlike decent Israelis like B’tselem, Gush Shalom and various refuseniks, he doesn’t criticise or oppose Israeli policy. No,he supports it, even to the extent of being fast and loose with the facts, then expects us to accept his self-description as some sort of egalitarian,humanitarian, socialist. Sorry, jon, but it just doesn’t wash. The positions are utterly antipathetic,unless,of course, you make exceptions,based on race,for the persecutors, the Jews, and their victims, the Palestinians, which,indeed, I believe is the true essence of your position.And mary, thanks for the Williams piece.He used to come to Australia often, and I once saw him jogging in the Sydney Botanic Gardens, down by Camp Cove. I thought for an instant that an orang utan had escaped Taronga Zoo and swum the Harbour, for Mr Williams is heroically hirsute, and has a running style, arms low slung and body hunched, that was in urgent need of biophysical remediation. As a comic I think he is a deranged genius, unlike our PM, who is a pompous prat with no sense of humour or self-deprecation-the reverse,in fact,as one expects of the type.

  40. goodwin sands said on April 3rd, 2010 at 8:10am #

    My concern is not so much about Hortense’s missing posts — she seems to have been entirely erased from the conversation, which is a far different thing than having a post or two disappear.

    My concern is that it’s quite obvious to readers of this thread that being a Holocaust denier isn’t sufficient reason to have your posts removed. That is, this is a site that does not seem to have any fundamental objection to Holocaust denial, and expects readers to simply ignore it when posters let fly with antisemitism.

    The “commenting etiquette” says quite plainly that antisemitism is not to be allowed here, yet it just as plainly *is* allowed here, in the form of Holocaust denial — Atzmon’s and Rehmat’s.

  41. Kim Petersen said on April 3rd, 2010 at 9:22am #

    I do not know of anyone who denies the holocaust. If so, such a person must be a loony.

    People who insist there are persons who deny the fact of mass killings during the WWII Holocaust without supplying an iota of evidence are themselves promoting an agenda. They conjure up the notion of “holocaust denial” which does not exist (at least among the sane), and then they attach the false premise that the non-existent and often unspecified “holocaust denial” equates with anti-Semitism. I submit that in many cases it is an agenda of supremacism: that the lives of one group of people have greater value than the lives of other humans. This is anathema.

    I do know that there are people who dispute the number of deaths during WWII, but I do not know that anyone denies that people died. What is racism is not questioning the number of Jews who died; it is diminishing the worth of the lives of other people who died during WWII. The lives and humanity of Slavs, Roma, homosexuals, etc. are equally precious to the lives and humanity of other victims. Refusal to accept this basic premise that all human life is equally precious is racism. The deaths of Jews is deplorable but equally so is the deaths of Arabs, Roma, and other humans.

    As for the events of history, I maintain there is an inalienable right to question it.

  42. bozh said on April 3rd, 2010 at 9:35am #

    The label “holocaust denier or denial” does not fall into category of the label “antisemitism”.
    In any case, both of these labels appear as over-generalizations; to which labels right-wrong and true-false do not apply.
    For the sake of sanity, we need to stop once and for all, dichotomizing ideating-thinking into correct and incorrect thinking; which also includes doubting. This actually stifles free speech and free thought.
    There had been people who asserted that much fewer ‘jews’ were slaughtered by nazis. Let’s say that i say that 1.5 ‘jews’ perished from all causes during WW2?
    True or false answers do pertain here. Calling this any name is just a waste of time.
    If one wld say that the germans in command of death camps had deliberately inflated the number of roms, poles, russians, and ‘jews’ in order to fool-please nazis, this shld be welcomed and investigated.

    One really wonders how cld have germans killed ab 10-15 mn prisoners while at war and especially when they realized that after german troops were defeated at stalingrad, american landed in europe, and failed assassination of hitler that it was all over for germany.

    It is also, to me, dishonest to build museums only for ‘jews’. German, russian, british, polish, american soldiers were as innocent as dead civilians.
    Let’s, instead, build museums for the greatest criminal minds and expose them as such. That makes sense and that’s why the greatest ‘jewish’ and of other nations’ criminal minds avoid it.
    They want more bloodshed; with their kids in colleges and management. tnx

  43. goodwin sands said on April 3rd, 2010 at 9:43am #

    Any claim that millions of Jews faked their own deaths is by its very nature an antisemitic claim.

    Please do some reading on the Holocaust denial movement. You’ll discover that there is indeed a clear historical thread leading from people who write books like “The Hitler We Loved And Why” to the sort of claims being made on this site. Not even David Irving claims that the Holocaust didn’t happen. He just wants to exonerate Hitler by claiming that Hitler didn’t order it, that there were no gas chambers, etc. He will then cluck his tongue in mock dismay over the handful of Jews he will concede were murdered, while denying the murder of the rest.

    To find someone who really *does* deny the Holocaust, you’ve got to go to Adam Ermash, who wrote under the pseudonym “Israel Shamir” while pretending to be an Israeli expat. Here’s what “Shamir” had to say: “I think it is the duty of every Muslim and Christian to deny the Holocaust, to reject this belief, just like Abraham and Moses rejected idolatry. Every person who profess their faith to God should deny the Holocaust.”

    Gilad Atzmon and the Holocaust denier “Israel Shamir” are great friends. Both have gone considerably farther than merely arguing about the number of dead.

    There is of course an inalienable right to question everything. But what would you say to someone who claims, for example, that the moon landing was fake? And when you show that person all the evidence, he just sticks his fingers into his ears and pretends he hasn’t seen it? That’s what the Holocaust denial movement is. Sure, you’ve got the right to be wrong about the Holocaust. Loudly, repeatedly, bone-headedly wrong.

  44. Hue Longer said on April 3rd, 2010 at 9:51am #

    still goodwin, there’s the conflating at the end of you letter…this is circular

  45. Kim Petersen said on April 3rd, 2010 at 10:21am #

    Goodwin, you still insist on using false premises to assert your view, a tautology. But you have admitted now that denial of the WWII Holocaust does not exist. Good for you. You are honest.

    However, then you latched onto a person, engaged in ad hominem (thereby undermining your credibility), and twisted their words (or seized upon another person’s twisting of Shamir’s words). Israel Shamir does not deny the WWII Holocaust happened (in the supremacist/racist sense that you promote).

    If you go to the interview from where the translated quotation originated, Shamir is asked, “Bör det vara tillåtet att kritisera den sionistiska versionen av Förintelsen?” (Yes, I read Swedish) This translates to: “Ought one be allowed to criticize the Zionist version of the [WWII] Holocaust?”

    So what Shamir is insisting is that the “Zionist version” of the WWII Holocaust should be denied — and indeed it should. This is very different than the falsehood you peddle.

    Then you try and discredit Atzmon through association with Shamir. First, Shamir is no loony. His support of the resistance of the Palestinian people is admirable, as is Atzmon’s support of the Palestinian people admirable.

    Your refusal to acknowledge the worthiness of all human lives, however, is self-damning.

  46. Jonas Rand said on April 3rd, 2010 at 8:51pm #

    Truthfully, I have never come across anyone who absolutely denies that the Holocaust ever happened.

    To do so would mean that one is a liar, but not necessarily an anti-Semitic one.

    I also question that 6 million is an accurate figure, and it seems a bit larger than what actually happened. Additionally, I believe that the Jewish deaths in the Holocaust have been emphasized and exploited in an effort to provide a pretext for Israeli atrocities in Palestine. It gives a cognitive association in people’s minds, such that they will think “If so many Jews were killed in such a horrible genocide, why should the Palestinians get away doing the same thing 60 years later”. This association is formed because of all the biased stories about atrocious and uncivilized Palestinians and sacrosanct Israelis, painting an overly simplified picture of the Palestine situation. All this while genocides like that of the East Timorese, or Native Americans, or Africans (during the slave trade), do not have memorials or museums and are actively covered up. Nonetheless, I do not dispute that the Holocaust happened, just that the media always presents an accurate version of history, untouched by bias. I must dispute that.

  47. Jonas Rand said on April 3rd, 2010 at 8:56pm #

    The reason I came here is to learn, to impart knowledge, and to gain a different perspective on events around the world, from socialists, anarchists, and other dissidents. I hope the rest of the members here wish to learn from one another as well. I am a young teenager from the U.S. state of Nevada.

  48. Justin Thyme said on April 3rd, 2010 at 10:31pm #

    Oi veh! I’m not sure this is the proper time to jump into the DV comments arena but I suppose there’s never an ideal time to voice one’s opinion on anything even remotely related to the doctrine of political Zionism.

    Having read through this thread (I caught Jonas Rand’s comments on the home page when I signed up) I can see that the topic is a contentious one in the ol’ “holocaust’ town tonight.

    Too much to comment but I did note in Jonas’s second to last comment that he states: “Truthfully, I have never come across anyone who absolutely denies that the Holocaust ever happened.”

    Well Jonas, today is your lucky day! Consider it an early gift from the Easter bunny. 🙂

    From what I read in this thread it appears that the DV etiquette/protocols advise against denying “THE” Jewish holocaust as it automatically implies that one is “anti-Semitic” and therefore a “racist.” (Please correct me if I’m wrong as, like most people I tend not to read the instructions first, whether it’s putting together a piece of furniture or one of those amazing new tents that require dozens of special fitting poles that inevitably get mixed up.)

    I’m rather a purist when it come to language (having majored in English) and so when I see people taking a word like “holocaust” which, by definition, means death by fire and twisting its meaning and adding a pinch of genocide and a touch of gas and a sprig of something else I get a bit perturbed by it all. As I see it it’s all a Zionist plot to get the goyim and the giddy leftists arguing endlessly over something that, fundamentally, is a flawed piece of machinery from the start.

    Imagine for example that the term didn’t exist at all and we only had the word “genocide” to work with. Wouldn’t this simplify things? Or would the Zionist Jews who coined the term “holocaust denial” immediately mint another one called “genocide denial” just to keep the illusion alive?

    The point I’m trying to make is that there’s never been a proven case of holocaust of Jews or anyone else by the Nazis in WW2 wherein vast numbers of any group were murdered by fire. The only known examples of this sort of atrocity where hundreds of thousands of people perished via such a medium were the Germans themselves thanks to the heinous allied bombing of defenseless German civilians. The example of Dresden springs to mind but here were dozens of other German cities where the Allies torched the non-combatants in massive numbers. The other examples of actual holocausts of course were Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    So it’s pointless and illogical (and actually a subterfuge on the part of any site) to make such claims that to “deny” the “holocaust” is “anti-Semitic.” I deny the authenticity of the actual term itself because, like all things that the Zionists do, they’ve inverted it and made it meaningless for the sole purpose of deceiving the people. Of course for the Mossad it makes perfect sense but for any reasonable, thinking, feeling person it ought to be avoided like the plague.

    The term itself needs to be analyzed and clarified before its used as a weapon against free speech otherwise it will only lead to further confusion and ignorance.

  49. Jonas Rand said on April 3rd, 2010 at 11:18pm #

    So, ‘Justin Thyme’, you don’t deny that the genocidal murders by the Nazi regime (the victims of which included much more than Jews alone) actually happened, which is what I mean by the commonly used term “holocaust denier”, just that the term “holocaust” is a misnomer for what actually happened? Or is it that you believe the latter, but also the former? I said specifically that the act of denying that such genocide existed is, while I think it historically inaccurate and ridiculous, not racist. Additionally, any claim that the act of denial is racist is, in my opinion, an attempt to emphasize the murders of a specific group whose members were targeted. Race does not even exist beyond a social construct.


  50. dino said on April 3rd, 2010 at 11:32pm #

    I read many books about ww2 written by historians who are translated in many languages ,also in hebrew,namely books considered to reflect the history of the period how it was and i found always the name of David Irving in the bibliographies used to write these books.For instance the much lauded Hitler by Jan Kershaw,The Myth of Hitler,by the same,Goering ,by Guido Knopp,Hitler,by Norman Stone etc,etc.

  51. Jonas Rand said on April 3rd, 2010 at 11:44pm #

    The day this site begins to associate itself with David Irving, or actively defending any claims that he makes in anything he wrote with a justification that is not related to the flow of free expression, that is the day that I leave this site.

  52. mary said on April 4th, 2010 at 1:15am #

    Some days ago Jon s said that he was not aware of any problems in Jerusalem regarding access for those wishing to celebrate Easter in the Holy City. Wrong!

    Total lockdown it seems.

    A Happy Easter to everyone.

  53. Don Hawkins said on April 4th, 2010 at 2:31am #

    Three stupid guys just died and are at the pearly gates of heaven. St. Peter tells them that they can enter the gates if they can answer one simple question.

    St. Peter asks the first man, “WHAT IS EASTER?” The man replies, “Oh, that’s easy, it’s the holiday in November when everybody gets together, eats turkey, and is thankful…”

    “WRONG,” replies St. Peter, and proceeds to ask the second man the same question, “WHAT IS EASTER?”

    The second man replies, “No, Easter is the holiday in December when we put up a nice tree, exchange presents, and celebrate the birth of Jesus.”

    St. Peter looks at the second man, shakes his head in disgust, looks at the third man and asks, “WHAT IS EASTER?”

    The third man smiles and looks St. Pete in the eye.

    “I know what Easter is. Easter is the Christian holiday that coincides with the Jewish celebration of Passover. Jesus and his disciples were eating at the last supper and He was later deceived and turned over to the Romans by one of his disciples. The Romans took Him to be crucified and was stabbed in the side, made Him wear a crown of thorns, and He was hung on a cross. He was buried in a nearby cave which was sealed off by a large boulder. Every year the boulder is moved aside so that Jesus can come out, and if He sees his shadow there will be six more weeks of winter.”

    After watching the heath care debate I guess that’s what they called it and knowing full well what’s coming on the climate bill am with the third guy makes complete sense to me.

  54. Justin Thyme said on April 4th, 2010 at 1:38pm #

    Hi Jonas. I wouldn’t go so far as to make such a statement regarding events that occurred during WW2. I certainly would not deny that that hundreds of thousands of people were sent to work camps throughout Nazi occupied territories for a variety of reasons and that many of them succumbed due to a number of factors but I cannot accept the fact that the Nazis deliberately set out to “genocide” anyone. What in heaven’s name would be the sense of creating work camps and then slaughtering everyone who was sent there to work? Not a very intelligent scheme if one is looking for free labour is it and the Germans were not known for their lack of organizational skills and diligence.

    We also cannot base all the Zionist claims of ‘holocaust” and “genocide” on events that transpired during the final stages of the war when the overall infrastructure upon which these camps depended was destroyed by allied bombing and the incursion into Nazi occupied territory by the Soviet forces. At that stage of events disease and malnutrition claimed many lives but this cannot be misconstrued to have been the intent of the Nazis.

    Your remark though that “Race does not even exist beyond a social construct” is a good one. There’s really only one race of humans, divergent in manifold ways but still all the same race just as there is really only one Sun that shines down upon us all.

    We can find agreement though in your statement that to deny anything ought not to be premised upon being racist. That would automatically make all atheists racists against the Creator, no? And my goodness we surely cannot have that, especially on Easter Sunday! 🙂

  55. Justin Thyme said on April 4th, 2010 at 1:51pm #

    While on the topic of the “Holocaust” I thought I might share the following introductory statement taken from a chapter out of Mark Glenn’s amazing book, “No Beauty in the Beast: Israel without her mascara” published by the Barnes Review (2005).

    The chapter is title, “One Less Than Six Million” and deals with the Zionist’s conception of this issue. He writes:

    “It was the event of the 20th Century, at least according to the history that was written by the conquerors. It has pervaded Western thinking and morals for over 50 years now, and those in the West (particularly in America) are not spared a day wherein they are not reminded of its importance. It is the subject of literally hundreds of films, from “Schindler’s List” to “Sophie’s Choice” to the obligatory programs appearing on public television. It has been raised in the consciousness of the Christian West as the ultimate act of savagery and brutality, an act that has never and will never be surpassed in its inhumanity. It has become the grain of sand around which the black pearl of collective guilt has been formed, and it is the weapon whose brandishment elicits the Pavlovian response of a conditioned populace whose sentiments are used for the furtherance of public policy. It has become the new religion for many, a blank check for a few, a slavemaster to others, and it is known as the Holocaust.”

  56. mary said on April 5th, 2010 at 7:23am #

    To ‘mark Passover’, according to the BBC blurb, they are transmitting a programme tonight entitled The Orphans Who Escaped the Concentration Camps.

    Today is Bank Holiday, *Easter* Monday and you would have thought that there would have been something more inclusive for the license fee payers, of whom only 2% are Jewish if the ratio is the same as for the general population.

    There is also this excruciating article about the progamme in the Daily Express, whose owner used to be Lord Beaverbook. The present owner is Richard Desmond, Jewish and very wealthy from his publishing and TV empire centred on pornography.

    Express Newspapers were always populist and tabloid in content but are now considered to be worthy of the tag ‘sewer press’.

    Despite the recession in the UK, the Holocaust industry is thriving.

  57. jon s said on April 5th, 2010 at 1:39pm #

    Mary, thanks for the info, I happen to have a personal interest in this story.

  58. jon s said on April 5th, 2010 at 9:35pm #

    On topic: Kim, as you can see , the ugly phenomenon of Holocaust denial does exist, unfortunately.
    A good book on the subject:
    Deborah Lipstadt : Denying the Holocaust, The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory, N.Y., 1994
    I absolutely agree that the Holocaust should never be used to attempt to justify any of Israel’s present policies. Israel should never say “because of what was done to us , we’re entitled to do this or that”. As an Israeli Jew, I would expect the Holocaust to make us more sensitive to racism and oppression . (Unfortunately it doesn’t always work that way…). At the same time, any analogy or comparison of the situation in Gaza with the Holocaust is obscene and offensive.

  59. mary said on April 5th, 2010 at 11:20pm #

    Pleased to be of service. I am denying nothing if that is what you are inferring. Just saying that we are sick of having the topic thrust down our throats morning (Dr Sacks and the MSM) noon (politicians’ messages) and night (endless repetitive documentaries). Yesterday was a festive day after all.

    It turned out to be rather a dull progamme which switched from footage of the period to interviews with some of the now elderly people living here (Britain is wonderful – oh yeah) though it was interesting to hear that many of the large numbers of orphans, homeless after the camps were liberated, made their way to Palestine!

  60. jon s said on April 6th, 2010 at 3:39am #

    Mary, I wasn’t inferring anything but Iam sorry that you feel that the subject is “thrust down your throat” . As I said I have a personal interest, which brought me to visit Windermere,while in the UK a few months ago.
    Oh, and what’s the MSM?

  61. mary said on April 6th, 2010 at 4:59am #

    and Zionist controlled/biased in the UK eg the BBC

    Edward Bernays (an Austrian Jew) was an early and efficient practioner of propaganda.

  62. jon s said on April 6th, 2010 at 6:22am #

    …And Bernays is connected to…what?