Rampaging Climate Deniers’ Losing Battle

The recent tempest in a teapot over leaked emails in the UK that purportedly proposed silencing climate deniers has succeeded admirably in advancing the agenda of the deniers, who, absent any substantial credible evidence for their viewpoint, have moved into the realm of personal slander.

On the face of it, their argument appears to rely on their claims that research with findings that dismiss climate change has been suppressed by the wicked science establishment. The reality is quite different, but people and media, being naturally paranoid and quick to indict the “elitist” scientific experts, have apparently bought into the deniers’ claims.

What most of the public and mass media do not understand, or choose to ignore in the interest of producing a “shock” story that will get attention regardless of its reliability or content, is what they also have not understood regarding the debate between evolutionists and creationists. Because of the flimsy comprehension of science and evolution of most writers in the mass media, those who venture to write about evolution feel constrained to present “alternative” views.

But “alternative” views are not necessarily credible or true. In the case of evolution, creationist belief in a deity is an article of faith reached by individuals outside the scientific process that involves peer review and rigorous independent impartial testing before any claim of “truth” or verification can be reached.

Anti-evolution forces refuse — because they are unable — to allow their views to be tested, because no such tests are available, or at least tests that do not threaten their belief system. Evolutionists have always asked creationists to submit criteria and protocols for their belief that a higher deity exists, but of course these do not exist. Yet this in no way stops creationists from continuing to assert that such a deity exists.

We now are seeing a similar backlash by climate change deniers. But the deniers’ arguments are no less articles of faith than those of the creationists. In the case of the former, the faith is not in a god but in the free market and capitalism. Almost without exception, those who are in staunch denial are those connected to, involved in or supportive of the traditional capitalist model of economic growth, and by implication opposed to anything that might constrain this model.

While we expect corporate flaks and biostitutes who are often hired consultants to corporations and industry to hew to the corporate party line (after all their livelihood and status depend on it), in the case of climate change deniers we have devotees of the economic growth model and fiery opponents of environmental laws and regulation. If they work at universities, it is likely that some if not most of their research funding comes from the private sector, usually corporations connected to energy, chemicals, and agriculture. They know on which side their bread is buttered. It was ever thus.

The climate science on which the vast majority of credible scientists rely for their uniform agreement that we are approaching the point of no return with climate change is impeccable and clear. Despite a few cranks and contrarians here and there — and let’s be clear that the science establishment needs and tolerates these because they are vital to the honesty of scientific process — the data are quite clear and unmistakable. They are not fuzzy or contradictory or fudged.

There are always disagreements among scientists as to the significance, extent and time line for the consequences of actions, in this case the act of continuing to release greenhouse gases. For example, some scientists believe the tipping point for irreversible climate change and widespread ecological damage is four or five years off. Others believe that we might have 20 years or more to cut back to the 350 ppm CO2 level that most scientists says is imperative to save civilization and prevent global chaos. The first IPCC report, and even other studies today, say that the 75 foot sea level rise that will accompany a loss of the west Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets won’t occur (or be finalized) by the year 2100.

But all of these rely on the same data; in fact every day new studies appear confirming the certainty and speed of climate change. What remains uncertain, as all scientists will admit, is how fast and where ocean- and land-based systems and species will react (and thus contribute additionally to climate change) to the already occurring impacts : worldwide melting of glaciers, release of permafrost from boreal bogs and underwater founts, severe weather events, droughts, floods, and wildfires, as well as the migration of tropical species northward, including insect disease vectors.

Despite uninformed gossip on the internet about how some parts of the world have experienced cold spells (revealing the public’s mistaken belief that weather and climate are the same), the increased average global temperature studies lead to no conclusion but that global warming began decades ago, continues unabated, and shows a steepening upward curve on all charts, in particular since the mid-20th century. No data exist whatsoever that change this upward curve. NONE WHATSOEVER.

The whining of climate deniers and free marketeers about whether the scientific community has excluded them from publishing is nothing but noise. Serious scientific researchers with transparent protocol and clear data that can be analyzed and verified have never been excluded or suppressed. However, as with all scientific peer review processes, nothing requires a science journal to print everything about climate change that arrives on its desk any more than a biology journal is required to print something that purports to prove the existence of a god as the alternative explanation to evolution of life on earth.

But climate change deniers are counting on public and media ignorance and demand for “objectivity” to get a sympathetic ear for their case. In effect they are demanding that any and all studies they submit for peer review and publication in professional journals be published regardless of the accuracy or integrity of their data. In effect they are demanding that their POLITICAL VIEWS be allowed free rein, whether or not their science supports them.

So the next time you see some apparently legitimate scientist griping that his work has been rejected by scientific journals, it behooves you to look behind the scenes at who he is, who funds him, and towards what ends, especially when the debate turns into ad hominem attacks on the scientists who, fed up with the mendacity and distortions of the climate change deniers, don’t want serious work and debate polluted by the propaganda of corporations and their paid lackies.

Lorna Salzman has been an environmental writer and activist since the mid-1960s and served as natural resource specialist for the New York City Dept. of Environmental Protection in the early 1990s. In 2004 she was a candidate for the U.S. Green Party's presidential nomination. Read other articles by Lorna, or visit Lorna's website.

44 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. Don Hawkins said on December 8th, 2009 at 10:02am #

    propaganda of corporations and their paid lackies. You know I think I have seen this on TV where they do this to people who are just trying to tell the truth. It’s almost like telling the TRUTH is a revolutionary act. Didn’t someone write about this very thing.

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  3. onecansay said on December 8th, 2009 at 2:33pm #

    For crying out loud every one, the climate changes over time. During the reign of Henry the VIII England experienced a year with no summer. 500 years before, Greenland WAS green. How do you think it got the name!.

    We are now approximately 500 years after the “year of no summer”. Greenland will again become green. In the next 500 years or so it will once again become covered in ice.

    Man, humans are so easily duped. The problem with C02 is that there is more of it than the existing plant life on Earth, and disappearing faster than a rabbit down a hole, can absorb.

    What does that mean? Well, less OXYGEN. Is that not we need to survive. Article after scientific article has proven C02 does not cause climate change. What it does is cause extinction of species whom require more Oxygen than Carbon Dioxide. Reptiles are one of these. Geez, were the dinosaurs not of the reptilian nature?

    Get your heads out of the sand you ostriches, for your flatulence is what is going to make you extinct.

    Just try to survive in closed room. That is what this planet is. Eventually you stink up the room so bad, exhale so much C02, that you WILL DIE.

    CLIMATE CHANGE IS WHAT THIS PLANET DOES.

    Earth does this. It is over FOUR BILLION years old.

    Man, the stupidity! Do you really think we control Earth. No, Earth controls US. Earth is only trying to KEEP ITS BALANCE.

    Should Earth need to pass gas to keep this balance, than that is what will happen.

    WE do have the ability to control our environment, but get out of hand and the hand of the Almighty will come down. The slap no one desires, unless you are sadist.

    Regards.

  4. Mulga Mumblebrain said on December 8th, 2009 at 3:18pm #

    The secret of the success of anthropogenic climate change denialism is that it relies on ignorance and stupidity.These attributes are widely spread throughout humanity, particularly in the capitalist states, the Anglosphere most markedly, due to the decades of brain-destroying indoctrination and conditioning by the omnipresent Rightwing propaganda system. No-one with an IQ over room temperature (Celsius) and scientific knowledge at high-school level and not pathologically afflicted by paranoia, knows climate change, caused by human activity, is occurring.But, as research has shown,and common sense surely affirms, those so stupid as to accept denialist rubbish are , surely, too thick to realise just how intellectually challenged they really are.And, after years of being told by Rightwing media psychotics that they are geniuses, their totally unmerited arrogance is simply breathtaking.
    I mean,just read onecansay, and weep. I rest my case. To be a denialist true believer one only need ignore all the scientists, all the learned societies and all the Academies Of Science of the planet, and simply believe,in true paranoid fashion, that it is all a vast Communist plot. Just a few weeks after this imbecility first appeared in the pages of the local Rightwing media, having graduated from the moronic inferno of the Rightwing blogosphere, that blogging sewer is seeing calls for lynching climate scientists for their role in the great conspiracy to destroy capitalism. So,how long will it be before such demands appear in Rightwing newspapers.? Don’t think it could not occur.After the megafires in Victoria last February, that killed nearly 200, demands were published in the mainstream media, by a deranged Rightwing columnist, for the lynching of ‘greenies’ on the pretext (utterly false in fact) that they,not climate change, which must be denied no matter how great the evidence, were responsible for the fire disaster, in that they allegedly (in fact another lie) had prevented ‘hazard reduction’ burn-offs. The trajectory of the Right,particularly when they are in lynch-mob mood, is invariably towards violence and intimidation,their strong suits, because they like it so much.

  5. lichen said on December 8th, 2009 at 3:28pm #

    Mining what is effectively our ancestors out of the ground and burning them; pumping countless tons of extremely toxic black smoke into the atmosphere has consequences. The very act of consuming the carbon from the atmosphere and storing that deep in the layers of the earth was exactly what made our life possible on this planet. So yes, deforestation, carbonization, chemicalization, and rapid resource exhaust is enough and has been scientifically proven to be rapidly changing the earth’s climate. It must be made illegal to take oil, gas, and coal out of the ground; illegal to wage any kind of war; and we must all actively support the climate justice movement.

    Mulga is right about the ignorant, violent vapidity of the right wing climate change deniers and the oil corporations sponsoring them.

  6. onecansay said on December 8th, 2009 at 3:36pm #

    Mulga Mumblebrain:

    Am I in my post denying climate change?

    Show me Mulga Mumblebrain where I do so!!

    What I AM saying is that CLIMATE CHANGE is not dependent on C02 concentrations.

    Your learnings, it seems, cannot go further back than 200,000 years.

    When was the last time you tried to grow your own food Mulga Mumblebrain? Try it sometime, in A GREENHOUSE!!!

    Only then will you gain some much required “wisdom”.

    Regards.

  7. Don Hawkins said on December 8th, 2009 at 3:41pm #

    onecansay thanks for making this so clear and here I thought Al Gore was right and some of those dumb scientists thank’s you made it so clear. So much to learn thank you.

  8. David Chabot said on December 8th, 2009 at 4:04pm #

    For a start, I invite everybody to watch this video. It has 9 parts of about 10 minutes, available on youtube:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TqqWJugXzs

  9. lichen said on December 8th, 2009 at 4:07pm #

    onecansay, yes, you are a climate change denier if you wish to arrogantly refuse to take responsibility as a human for causing massive environmental destruction and upsetting the earth’s balance and refusing to change; to switch to a carbon-free world. That is the point; taking responsibility and changing. It is not an abstract weather event.

  10. onecansay said on December 8th, 2009 at 4:14pm #

    lichen:

    Where have I denied humans create access amounts of unneeded C02? Where lichen ?

    I did say that if C02 levels are not brought within A human existence survivability range, WE WILL ALL DIE!!!

    Should you all desire to FULLY associate “Global Warming” and “Climate Change” to C02 concentrations, so be it.

    Once again, lock yourself in a self contained room. Tell me if the climate changes as you run out of Oxygen.

  11. lichen said on December 8th, 2009 at 4:40pm #

    You have denied man-made climate change, and nowhere have you stated that you support the climate justice movement, or wish to leave all coal/oil/gas in the ground; instead, you spout an oddly religous form of right wing climate change denial. You are the one in a box.

  12. lichen said on December 8th, 2009 at 5:21pm #

    If humans supposedly were not causing climate change, than a) the great urgency would not be there because “there is nothing we can do,” and certainly the most radical measures will not be deemed neccessary either, and b) it would mean that climate reperations were not due to the global south by the highest polluting western nations and corporations, because they would be absolved from having committed any pollution crimes. So yes, it is a really essential piece of the puzzle, and denying man-made global warming but making a weak case that the climate is changing itself and that a few cuts would be fine is a part of the right climate change denial movement.

  13. David Chabot said on December 8th, 2009 at 6:01pm #

    There are plently of urgent ecological disasters we need to work on. CO2 is just not a problem. Let’s fix the real problems. Cap and trade will do nothing for this.

  14. lichen said on December 8th, 2009 at 6:27pm #

    Yes, CO2 is a problem; coal, oil, gas, and nuclear are problems; they are destroying our climate, and they poison the people and animals in the vicinity of the operating plants, and in the cities.

  15. Annie Ladysmith said on December 8th, 2009 at 10:14pm #

    Lichen: it’s not the CO2, it’s not coal, it’s not even the Russian and Chinese nukes that are going to be raining down on America soon enough, it’s YOU. Your screwed up like your friends b99 and Don.
    You have screwed up brains, no critical thought, and moreover, you have screwed up hearts with nothing good coming out of them, so you need this causes to give your lives some smidgen of meaning. But, it’s all meaningless without the truth, you do not have the truth, you are following a LIE, you are deceived.

  16. Deadbeat said on December 9th, 2009 at 2:58am #

    I find myself more in agreement with Annie Ladysmith with some caveats. I totally agree with her regarding the lack of critical thinking about “Climate Change” . I thought THE environmental problem was pollution but now it’s
    “Climate Change”. When you see someone like Al Gore hawking “Climate Change” it is time to raise red flags. Gore, when he was Senator, didn’t find a weapon system he didn’t like. He was an extremely hawkish Senator and supported nuclear power and weapon system. He is also a huge support of the State of Israel yet is now the “darling” of the “Climate Change” supporters and became filthy rich because of it.

    I also take issue with lichen’s semantic of “man-made” Climate Change since it assumes that every human being contributed to this problem equally rather than examining Capitalism’s inequality of resource consumption and thus promote ways of ending Capitalism as a means of resolving the problem. The only real solution to such an immense world wide problem is by shaking up the world wide economic order. Yet I don’t hear any such radical critiques or solutions emanating from the “Climate Change” crowd.

    Essentially I find affinity with Annie’s sentiments. This whole Copenhagen thing reeks of elitist Liberal whitewashing.

  17. brian said on December 9th, 2009 at 5:07am #

    its wierd that many left wing sites have gone over to the likes of Competitive Enterprise Institute, in denying man made climate bchange:
    notably: Global Research, alethonews.wordpress.com.

  18. brian said on December 9th, 2009 at 5:22am #

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/

    CRG sucked in by BIG OIL????

  19. Don Hawkins said on December 9th, 2009 at 5:25am #

    “This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.”
    Churchill

    So you need this causes to give your lives some smidgen of meaning. Annie Annie Annie. You are right about giving our lives some smidgen of meaning. Of course there are a few among us who have more than a smidgen of meaning.in there lives all we have to do is turn on the TV to see them and a few who stay behind the curtain and spreading there truth is there game. Money is the game and meaning is there name. Did you see the latest on the health care bill hello watered down yes you can say that. Copenhagen they are now fighting over the money big people and small people all the meaning. Then here in the States we get to see the Senate fight over the money on the climate change bill well kind of as it does little to slow anything just on the off chance it is happening. It appears that this game money and to play causes a little side effect let’s see how do I say this “Always’ looking”, and this seems to play out in different way’s. To watch all this is amazing am right your wrong no your wrong am right meaning. Somebody will win am sure of it. Onecansay and his comments will he win probably will my comments win probably we all get to win in the end of the beginning. Just on the off chance the Earth is changing and rather fast with not much time to adapt will there be people who have more money probably will it do them any good for awhile and the people who don’t have a pot to piss in well they do have a pot to piss in how will they fair first to go to the happy hunting ground. Strong and weak and you add the system and all that meaning you know just on the off chance the problem, problems are real how will it play out? To me if the Earth could talk it would say man you human’s are just not to bright am a miracle of the Universe and look what you do bye bye. Did I win I guess how about the people who need more more more will they win I guess at the end of the beginning and boring it will not be especially for people who do have a pot to piss in and I guess we want more bang for our buck, meaning.

  20. onecansay said on December 9th, 2009 at 7:53am #

    Well Don Hawkins, in deciphering your code you have made a point. Humankind for the most part has a limited concept of balance, used only when standing at the edge of the precipice. Humankind is a mere hiccup in Earth time. Earth has experienced high and low C02 levels when humankind did not exist. These high C02 concentrations occurred as the Earth was in one of its cooled stages. These high C02 concentrations occurred during as the Earth was in one of its warmed stages. The Earth has been cool in low C02 concentrations. The Earth has been warm with low C02 concentrations. The Earth warms and cools on its own. Once again, the problem is C02. Like I said, Earth cares not. Balance is what Earth tries to achieve, no matter the content. Excess C02 does not kill the Earth, but it will kill US.

    Regards.

  21. Don Hawkins said on December 9th, 2009 at 2:28pm #

    Well maybe we should stop putting it into the atmosphere. Now that seems much to hard to do as we must take into account little God’s ever heard of them and Wall Street and the share holders and if the truth be known most of us get along in the greatest nation on Earth on very little as we owe our soul to the company store and what does that do to the mind well take a look around. Listen to your leaders watch your parking meters watch those commercials and call call now talking heads and that foolishness and Glenn Beck who you sound a little like and vote there’s a good one. This last time and the change we can believe in not so much. Don’t forget to fill up and when you turn on the lights coal it’s what’s for dinner. It’s the best we can do but better than the rest, what. I know you were trying to get me to say something and it didn’t work because I know you know we know find any meaning in that? Now just on the off chance the science is correct and now what we see with our own eye’s kind of a sign Indian talk yes Greenland will be green again and a few other minor changes none good for life forms in this modern age. As I am witting this watching CNBC and they just showed a picture of the snow up North and said what global warming, right there childlike thought at least on that little subject and on the economy all that money they seem to know much more. Sometimes I think they know more than they are letting on then again maybe not but I have that feeling on many people on see on TV. Head office and all that. NBC is doing some good stuff on climate change this week and one man a scientist said we only lost 45 feet of ice in the last few years. Well more ice lost and more warming boring it will not be. Code to try and speak the truth with the limited information we get but can be done is a revolutionary act and so it goes.

  22. lichen said on December 9th, 2009 at 8:22pm #

    Bryan, you make a good point about global research–I stopped reading their site some time ago when I found that they publish only articles on the subject that deny climate-change. At least here people like annie are only in the comments section here; ironically telling me that I only know lies when all their posts are reactionary, screaming bilge.

    What is really wrong with this country is the marxist right wing, politically antiquated, left-hating folks like deadbeat; who are so frozen in a certain political time that not even the reality of global warming can thaw them out and make them realize what century they live in; but choose to make an ideology out of their dirty prejudices instead.

  23. kalidas said on December 10th, 2009 at 3:14pm #

    Well, it’s official..
    War is peace deniers have also lost the battle.
    Today the US President said so.
    To prove it he held up his Nobel Peace Prize.
    Case closed.

  24. Deadbeat said on December 11th, 2009 at 11:30am #

    lichen writes …

    What is really wrong with this country is the marxist right wing, politically antiquated, left-hating folks like deadbeat; who are so frozen in a certain political time that not even the reality of global warming can thaw them out and make them realize what century they live in; but choose to make an ideology out of their dirty prejudices instead.

    What lichen writes is extremely unseemly and why this whole “Climate Change” rhetoric is more about keeping the Left in a state of discombobulation which happens to be the main agenda of Chomskyism.

    I also find it interesting that 10 years ago the “Left” was rallying in Seattle around the idea of 3rd world debt forgiveness yet during this economic crisis while Amy Goodman spends TWO weeks in Copenhagen she ignore the REAL DEBT CRISIS going on among the citizens of her native New York City. Why no debt REPUDIATION rally against the banks that are blocks from her studio. She certainly would have reduced her “carbon footprint” and tackled a much more serious issue.

    There are real questions that need to be raised about “Climate Change” especially when the “leading” voice is one AL GORE who voted for every f-n missile system during his tenure in the Senate and supports raising military expenditures that protects the “Jewish” state has become a BILLIONAIRE from his climate posturing.

    Aside from Gore, lichen ignore how the “Peak Oil” rhetoric fell flat on its face as these folks came out of every crevasse when oil prices spiked. They blamed the spike on dwindling supplies (“peak oil”) because they have books to sell. They made appearance on all of the “alternative” media since it was claimed they viewpoint was being censored.

    However what the Peak Oil salesmen didn’t mention was that supplies INCREASED due the Saudis increased production during that same period. Prices rose due to speculation in the futures markets caused by ZIONISM — the war on Iraq and Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. Peak Oil became just another talking point in order to AVOID and DEFLECT Zionism’s detrimental influence that was WREAKING the economy and harming people over the world.

    Isn’t it amazing how the Climate Change advocates sound no better than George W. “With us or against us” Bush. This “Climate Change” catch phrase is too amorphous conceptually and too difficult to be conclusive which means it can be used politically like the other amorphous phrase “War on Terror”. This will set back real efforts to deal with pollution because it will essentially discredit the environmental movement. Also the Climate Change advocates offer no real critique of Capitalism and no strategy to change the economic order that would have to occur to better the environment.

    lichen attacks also reveal how WEAK his/her position is. If the facts was there there would no reason to use ad hominems. He/She would make his/her case based on the evidence. The problem is that “Climate Change” is about RHETORIC not facts. This lead then to ask the question what do they hope to gain from this rhetoric?

    Seeing the parade of Chomskyites around this issue lead me to believe that somehow “Climate Change” is working to the benefit of Zionism and Capitalism in a direct or indirect manner and this issue is NOT about JUSTICE.

    “Climate Change” especially on the ‘Left” is being drenched in phony importance that take the bandwidth and attention away from the REAL crisis of Capitalism; from the REAL transfer of wealth by the bank bailouts; the lack of activity around a strategy of debt repudiation; from mounting an effort to boycott Israel and to stop the U.S. tax dollars from flowing to an apartheid entity; from a real jobs program; from real concrete issues that effect everyday people.

    “Climate Change” once again demonstrated the elitism of the “Left” and how disconnected they are from real people and why the Right often looks more attractive to everyday people due to the vacuum of the Left avoidance and failure to address REAL issues in a radical and HONEST manner.

  25. Deadbeat said on December 11th, 2009 at 11:36am #

    Brian writes …

    its wierd that many left wing sites have gone over to the likes of Competitive Enterprise Institute, in denying man made climate bchange:
    notably: Global Research, alethonews.wordpress.com.

    Thanks for posting leads where I can read opposing views. A healthy debate is what builds confidence and trust. If the “Climate Change” position is solid then they shouldn’t fear the opposition. In fact they should welcome it because it will only strengthen their arguments.

  26. lichen said on December 11th, 2009 at 3:00pm #

    Lol, deadbeat; yeah, you will go read “opposing views” at global research when the fact is you’ve obviously not read the climate JUSTICE side at all, but only the right wing deniers who you cuddle up with so severely. The incredible shallowness of your ignorance at thinking that the “main person” is Al Gore, who has nothing to do with it at this point. Perhaps if you had actually watched the democracy now! coverage this week, you would have learned that canceling foreign debt is a part of climate reperations which are due poor, undeveloped island and African nations which did nothing to contribute to global warming but are already suffering from it due to the pollution of rich countries. You would have seen the people from these island an African nations, who live in huts and live an extremely traditional, “regular” way of life but who are not attracted to the right, not interested in hearing the excuses of people who are destroying their homelands.

    Indeed, your “regular people” rhetoric is actually the most elitist of all; vilifying anyone who grew up in such surroundings but chooses a different life and view; villifying in fact all young people, and intentionally excluding native north american people’s living right next to mountain top removal and tar sands who are suffering greatly; the people living next to nuclear plants; the poor black people in Oakland who are breathing in poisonous smog from the hundreds of diesel trucks lined up at the port every morning. It is clearly YOU who lean towards the right. As for your personal attacks on me, I don’t care, and I won’t be told by someone with only shallow, stock answers to every single article (capitalism and zionism, oh my!) that my rhetoric is somehow lacking, especially when you didn’t even read all of my posts here.

    But yes, sit there and beleive you are so much better than the billions of regular, poor people across the planet who see climate change as the crux, the movement to harness to reap social and environmental justice and social change, and who are out putting themselves on the line and not about to let themselves be stifled by ideologues with abstract aims who just say over and over again that zionism and capitalism are the only issues.

  27. Hue Longer said on December 11th, 2009 at 3:45pm #

    Al Gore attaching himself to climate change is a good place to start for those misusing ad hominem whenever someone calls them a fuckwit.

    If Al Gore suggested that the earth was older than 5000 years, would that mean that dinosaurs walked the Earth with man?

  28. dan e said on December 11th, 2009 at 4:02pm #

    Alas, the comments to Kim Peterson’s article re Who Decides In USA, Zionist Power or good old 2nd International version of Capitalist System seem to be closed. Which is a shame because the question he poses is Question Number One for US would-be Progressives, radical left etc.
    So I hope the editors will re-open that piece for further comments?

    In the meantime, re the “Climate Change” debate, I don’t think there’s any question that our “modern” version of Western Civilization (sic) has been abusing the natural environment for a long time. I think it’s pretty clear that the “developed countries” need to drastically change the amount of pollutants being dispensed into the atmosphere, oceans/lakes/rivers, and into/onto the continental land masses.
    So there is a need for immediate drastic steps.
    However, it’s also pretty obvious that there is something extremely fishy about the recent rush of “Climate Change” hype coming from the same sources that are giving us all the AfPak hype. I haven’t figured out the scam involved but I’m sure there is one, or several. So I think this is a development that can use some serious Deconstruction.

    But isn’t it also obvious that whoever/whatever is running things now, whoever the “true deciders” truly are, they have to be disempowered before anything effective can be done about Environmental Damage?

    So the first step to addressing Climate Change is probably to identify exactly who these Deciders are, and how their Power functions? Maybe trace how they managed to take possession of all the socio-economic High Ground they currently control?

    Obviously nothing that involves more than one individual can be described as “monolithic”, so isn’t there a need to identify the main players by name and attributes? And then to ID their main accomplices/retainers/gunsels, showing how Power is delivered or/and in some instances perhaps to a degree shared?

    My own take is that the Imperialist Edifice so carefully constructed over decades by John D the Philanthropist senior of the five Rockefeller bros is now much weakened relative to the competing system of alliances loyal to the Rothschild family and the vision of Eretz Yisroel. But is still strong enough to have prevented any Israel-inspired first strike vs Iran. So far.

    However. Those trying to determine the truth or falsity of this proposition will have to do their own research. The facts are out there, you just have to look around with a mind free of Mainstream Media/Mainstream Academia brainwashing.

  29. Deadbeat said on December 11th, 2009 at 5:35pm #

    lichen writes …

    African nations which did nothing to contribute to global warming but are already suffering from it due to the pollution of rich countries.

    lichen is so wrapped up and seemingly “invested” in the language of “Climate Change” that apparently he/she didn’t read my commentary. What I wrote was the following …

    Isn’t it amazing how the Climate Change advocates sound no better than George W. “With us or against us” Bush. This “Climate Change” catch phrase is too amorphous conceptually and too difficult to be conclusive which means it can be used politically like the other amorphous phrase “War on Terror”. This will set back real efforts to deal with pollution because it will essentially discredit the environmental movement. Also the Climate Change advocates offer no real critique of Capitalism and no strategy to change the economic order that would have to occur to better the environment.

    Pollution is the problem and Capitalist production and resource mis-allocation and powerlessness are the problem. “Climate Change” is an arguable catch phrase that does more to CONFUSE and CONFLATE the issue rather than clarify the issue.

    The problem is why the catch phrase and the agenda behind the phrase and why are the “Climate Change” crowd so “invested” in the phrase with it really offers nothing but spurious debate?

    And to Hue Longer, at least lichen is making an argument and defending his/her position, apparently you cannot even offer any real commentary.

  30. Deadbeat said on December 11th, 2009 at 6:03pm #

    dan e writes …

    However, it’s also pretty obvious that there is something extremely fishy about the recent rush of “Climate Change” hype coming from the same sources that are giving us all the AfPak hype. I haven’t figured out the scam involved but I’m sure there is one, or several. So I think this is a development that can use some serious Deconstruction.

    Exactly and that is the point. There is something unseemly about the RHETORIC and the players who have attached themselves to this rhetoric — especially Al Gore who as Senator VOTED for every missile system that passed through the Senate and has now become a billionaire form this whole “Climate Change” scheme. The fact the “Climate Change debate” has subsumed pollution and environmentalism is also fishy and from a left-wing perspective — very WEAK.

    It also seems like the phrase got altered to “Climate Change” as questions and doubts were raised regarding the “Global Warming” phrase. Both phrases to me seem political motivated and designed to alter the focus from dealing pollution and Capitalist modes of production which is the basis from much of the pollution.

    Pollution is a much more real term and concept because people are aware of the effects of pollution and can make REAL DEMANDS and hold the polluting nations accountable. “Climate Change” on the other hand is too amorphous and can be argued to forever and stunts real action (especially grassroots action) and accountability which in turn only benefits the rich and powerful.

  31. Hue Longer said on December 11th, 2009 at 7:16pm #

    My contribution was that one shouldn’t dismiss what they can’t understand because a hypocrite like Gore talks about it. But if you feel entire pages of nonsense should be typed on the strength of a fallacy I suppose I don’t have anything meaningful for you. Your poor reasoning isn’t just a style or as you like to say, your “tenor”….it confuses whatever murky point you try to make

  32. Hue Longer said on December 11th, 2009 at 7:17pm #

    sorry, that was to DB (who’d have guessed?)

  33. lichen said on December 11th, 2009 at 7:57pm #

    It was also communist pollution, social welfare state pollution; you can have a tar sands democratic cooperative, but it is still trash. We need to go from where we are now, and we will not pause to supposedly solve other, more massive and contentious problems first. The number of times marxists say this or that thing is caused by capitalism, ignoring the fact that other countries with a capitalist system have better policies in place is high enough to be farcical. Things can be changed here and now and with what we have, and they can be done directly, without conspiracy theories.

    It is really sad to join in with climate change deniers because you don’t like the phrase. Copenhagen is about the fact that we have a huge chance right now to roll back emissions and change the direction of the world in a meaningful way.

    And no, dan e, the “same people” who formulated afpak are not the ones out there on the streets right now demanding real climate justice. Neocons want the weakest, non-binding measures possible.

  34. Deadbeat said on December 12th, 2009 at 2:12am #

    My contribution was that one shouldn’t dismiss what they can’t understand because a hypocrite like Gore talks about it.

    So your contribution Hue is to make an outlandish argument in defense of a “hypocrite like Gore” because I cannot understand how Gore became a BILLIONAIRE over an issue (“Climate Change”) whereby the only real solution to Capitalist production is the redistribution of wealth and power.

    That doesn’t sound like much of an analysis to me. In fact that’s what I’d call putting one’s head in the sand.

  35. Deadbeat said on December 12th, 2009 at 3:00am #

    lichen writes …

    It is really sad to join in with climate change deniers because you don’t like the phrase. Copenhagen is about the fact that we have a huge chance right now to roll back emissions and change the direction of the world in a meaningful way.

    The use of the phrase “climate change deniers” is counterproductive and introduces a “poisoning the well” fallacy since the word “denier” is structured to elicit a negative connotation without the user (lichen) having to present any facts to support his/her arguments.

    The question is what is being “denied”? No one is denying that the Capitalist production exploits workers and created pollution that negatively affects the environment. “Climate Change” on the other hand is an amorphous phrase that is designed to promote confusion and is being used to advance all kinds of political agendas just like the other catch phrase “War on Terror”.

    Since “Climate Change” is amorphous here’s how the phrase could be used (or abused)

    [1] It is clear that the U.S. and the Western nations economic and political power is waning while China and India power is growing. “Climate Change” can be used as a tool to try to slow down the growing influence of these two emerging nations and other developing countries by the West. Essentially well meaning people who are truly concerned about environmental issues becomes unwitting advocates of the ruling class agenda. NGO’s who latch themselves onto these kind of issues a number of them are funded by extremely wealthy people like George Soros whose agenda is not aligned with the working class.

    [2] “Climate Change” being associated with the “Peak Oil” phrase can be used to try to curtail oil consumption which would be detrimental to OPEC nations.

    [3] “Climate Change” being associated with the “Conspicuous Consumption” phrase is used to beat down workers living standards especially as this Capitalist crisis is not a cyclical crisis and will linger on for years. Carbon footprint reduction will be borne by workers all the while elitists “Left-wing” luminaries jet-set around the globe to “cover” the story of “Climate Change”.

    [4] As we can see from Copenhagen the rich nation of the West have no intention of compliance and just before Copenhagen you had the release of emails where scientists who expressed their skepticism about “Climate Change” where being intimidated — which is essentially the same tactic that lichen seems to be using (“with us or against us”).

    The point is to raise serious question about the POLITICS and not to accepted anything on blind faith.

  36. lichen said on December 12th, 2009 at 2:56pm #

    Hue you are quite correct; db has no understanding, let alone interest, sympathy, or knowledge about the reality of the consequences of man-made climate change. This sort of destructive, condescending, hateful attempt to destroy a genuine grassroots movement is truly disgusting, and I’m not going to bother with him anymore.

  37. Hue Longer said on December 12th, 2009 at 3:35pm #

    lichen,

    It’s hard for another scientist outside the field to grasp the field let alone a layman, but one can understand how science works to know that it doesn’t need a PR manager to help its method and peer review.

    My issue with DB is that he doesn’t grasp ad hominem and like any 10th grade kid getting an intro to logic in debate class, incredulously repeats the fallacy after you point it out to him. Maybe caps work for him?

    DB, I’M NOT DEFENDING AL GORE!!! THE MAN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ISSUE!!! 2+2=4 EVEN THOUGH CHOMSKY SAYS SO TOO!!!

    So yeah, I don’t have much to offer to most intriguing articles here at DV, but it would be addition through subtraction to eliminate DB’s posts from the discussions that follow

  38. Deadbeat said on December 12th, 2009 at 3:39pm #

    Let rewrite lichen post to same the same thing in reverse.

    […] you are quite correct; [lichen] has no understanding, let alone interest, sympathy, or knowledge about the reality of the consequences of [Capitalist mode of production that cause pollution]. This sort of destructive, condescending, hateful attempt to destroy a genuine [working class] grassroots movement is truly disgusting, and I’m not going to bother with him anymore.

  39. Deadbeat said on December 12th, 2009 at 3:44pm #

    Hue Longer writes…

    My issue with DB is that he doesn’t grasp ad hominem and like any 10th grade kid getting an intro to logic in debate class, incredulously repeats the fallacy after you point it out to him. Maybe caps work for him?

    Hue I’ll gladly debate with you the fallacy of ad hominems. Please submit an article to Kim to open the thread. However the issue here is the hidden agenda of “Climate Change”. You alluded in your prior post that I lack an “understanding”. I elaborated in my post what it is that I do not understand. I’ll repeat it again.

    I don’t understand how AL GORE who voted for every military program became a BILLIONAIRE from “Climate Change”.

  40. Hue Longer said on December 12th, 2009 at 3:47pm #

    yet again…increddible

  41. Don Hawkins said on December 12th, 2009 at 4:07pm #

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/12/climate-protesters-compared-to-hitler-youth/

    On Saturday, my colleagues Tom Zeller and Andrew Revkin reported from a large protest in Copenhagen in support of a global strategy to combat climate change.
    Earlier this week, John Vidal of The Guardian reported that a climate change skeptic, Christopher Monckton, who is the hereditary third Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, created a stir when he compared protesters in Copenhagen to “Hilter Youth,” after some of them disrupted a meeting of the group Americans for Prosperity in the Danish capital on Wednesday night.

  42. Deadbeat said on December 12th, 2009 at 4:18pm #

    Hue writes …

    yet again…increddible

    I agree with you Hue. It is absolutely incredible that Al Gore could become a billionaire on an issue that is suppose to “save the planet”.

  43. Don Hawkins said on December 12th, 2009 at 4:28pm #

    Viscount Monckton, sir that is repulsive and you should have stayed with what you said on the Glenn Beck show. Sir bad is not good and ignorance is not strength and war is not peace. To tell the truth in a time of universal deceit is a revolutionary act now isn’t it sir.

  44. Don Hawkins said on December 13th, 2009 at 3:01pm #

    First read this;

    latimes.com
    Opinion
    The great retreat
    December 13, 2009
    Five years ago I purchased a photograph by the late Bradford Washburn, the uncontested pioneer of museum-quality aerial photography. Driving home and sneaking peeks of my new picture of mountaineers high on a glacier, I started wondering: If global warming is real, what does that icy scene look like now?

    The result of that question was three trips to Alaska, two trips to the Alps and a series of 15 comparison black-and-white photographs in an exhibit touring the country. I re-shot Washburn pictures from the 1930s and 1960s at the same altitudes and vantage points, and sometimes almost to the same day and minute.

    The news is not good.

    As the photos show, the ice world is melting fast. This includes the ice stored in the planet’s largest water tower, the Himalayan mountain range, which annually sends drinking water down seven major rivers to hundreds of millions of Chinese and Indian citizens. In another 20 or so years, they are likely to start getting thirsty; the well-armed governments for another 7 billion people will be getting snippy about their water; and I won’t be able to buy flood insurance for my home on the Boston waterfront.

    I am not a scientist. Frankly, I took a college course called “Physics for Poets” to fulfill my science requirement. But I do know something about how scientists work, and about how a host of smart, fallible people advance theories one baby step at a time, then defend them in the acid bath called peer review where colleagues nibble, swat, swipe and scratch at the research.

    Good science is a seemingly endless series of tweaks, not one or five guys with controversial theories that allow us to keep burying our heads in ethereal hope. Good science is 620 authors citing thousands of peer-reviewed studies for the latest U.N. climate report. The process is far from perfect. But the consensus is overwhelming that the planet’s passengers are headed for deep trouble. Even rock-solid scientific acceptance, of course, doesn’t always sway the public. Consider that one-third of American adults believe the Earth was created in six days.

    No analogy is perfect, but I look at it this way: I’m told I have a malignant brain tumor and it’s growing. Ninety-eight doctors say that if the tumor is not removed (possibility of non-life-threatening complications), I will die. Two well-credentialed doctors say there is no research that can prove the tumor will continue to grow, so sit tight.

    I’m going with the surgery. And the flood insurance.

    David Arnold, a former reporter for the Boston Globe, is art director of Double Exposure (doublexposure.net), a global-warming photographic exhibit

    Here are photos

    http://doublexposure.net/