All’s Fair in Law and War

by Greg Felton / April 2nd, 2010

Brian Cohen: Good evening, and welcome to Face of the Nation. Our subject tonight: freedom of expression and criticism of Israel. Every Canadian knows that freedom of expression is guaranteed under Article 2 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Without freedom of expression, there would be no freedom to dissent, and without the freedom to dissent, there would be no individualism, and without individualism there would be no democracy.

On the other hand, freedom to express oneself is not absolute. Libel, slander and disinformation cannot be defended or justified under Article 2. Nowhere do these illegitimate forms of expression find greater expression than on the subject of Israel and Palestine.

It’s fitting that this debate should take place soon after Israeli Apartheid Week. As the annual event attracts increasing numbers of supporters on university campuses, Israel’s defenders resort to more militant countermeasures to stifle it. This year, for example, a government MP even introduced a bill to condemn Israeli Apartheid Week on the grounds that it’s ‘anti-Semitic.’ Of course, he failed.

Tonight’s show focuses on the new concept of “lawfare,” a term recently coined by zionists to charge Israel’s critics with abusing freedom of speech to single out Israel for criticism. Now, let’s meet our guests: Speaking on behalf of Israel is Canadian MP Irwin Cotler, who comes to us from Ottawa via satellite. Mr. Cotler is a former justice minister, and on March 11 in New York City was one of three co-chairman of the inaugural conference of The Lawfare Project.

In the studio to defend legal actions against Israel is Stan Rice. Mr. Rice is a Carleton graduate student in history and researching how Israel uses the holocaust and demonized Arab stereotypes to support its occupation of Palestine. Welcome to both of you. Let’s begin with Irwin Cotler. Tell us what exactly “lawfare” is.

Irwin Cotler: Thank you, Brian. The Lawfare Project has been created to raise awareness about the abuse of the law as a weapon of war and the exploitation of human rights law. The term refers to the use of law as a form of warfare.

For example, “human rights” ought to apply to all peoples of all nations, yet international organizations like the United Nations and anti-Israel activists use the term as a political weapon to demonize Israel. Time and again the UN has used legalistic-sounding language to single it out as a pariah state. Let’s not forget that 35 years ago the UN passed its infamous resolution equating Zionism with Racism. It gave the abomination of anti-Semitism the appearance of international legal sanction.

A more recent example is the UN’s notorious Goldstone Report. By accusing Israel of committing war crimes during its military operations in Gaza last year, the UN again singled out one member state for disproportionate condemnation, thereby clearly discriminating against Israel. Such behaviour diminishes the credibility of the UN and it diminishes respect for international law.

In addition, there is the more pervasive problem of using pseudo-legalistic language to refer to Israel as an “apartheid state” at events like the 2001 United Nations World Conference Against Racism in Durban. Such abuse undermines the struggle against racism worldwide. So you see, the use of legalistic language and procedures to serve biased political ends has a long history.

Cohen: Stan, how in your mind does lawfare fit into the larger picture of free expression?

Stan Rice: It doesn’t. It has no place in a democratic society governed by the rule of law. Contrary to what Irwin Cotler would have us believe, lawfare strips human rights and freedom of expression of any independent worth by reducing them to instruments of Israeli propaganda. You will note that at no time does Mr. Cotler address the substance of the charge that zionism is form of racism, or that Israel did commit war crimes.…

Cotler: You see, this is precisely what I mean! Your student guest is demonizing Israel and…

Cohen: …Hold on. Hold on. Let him finish.

Rice: What Mr. Cotler fails to mention is that the author of the report, Richard Goldstone, is a Zionist Jew with great affection for Israel who deliberately understated the magnitude of Israel’s atrocities.…

Cotler: There! This is precisely…

Rice: …Moreover, Ehud Barak admitted that the decision to attack Gaza had been planned for six months and that Hamas rockets had nothing to do with it. A premeditated attack on a civilian population is by definition a war crime, yet Mr. Cotler and The Lawfare Project attack those who want to these Israeli war criminals prosecuted.

Cohen: Irwin, what Stan said about the cause of the Gaza attack is true—it’s documented—so how does using legal methods to have those responsible brought to justice amount to an abuse of the legal system?

Cotler: Israel has an absolute right to defend itself, and its politicians deserve the same rights as those of any other country.

Rice: That’s right—the same rights, not preferential rights! The applicability of international law is universal, and all countries have a duty to uphold the law and seek the arrest of those suspected of committing war crimes. But Israel is deathly afraid of the law so it sabotages the law wherever it can. (Cotler tries to interrupt). It coerces countries like Spain, Belgium and now the U.K. to rewrite their laws to allow Israelis to evade arrest. “Lawfare” is designed to hobble the law by perpetuating the double-standard of one law for Israel and one for the rest of the world.

Cotler: How dare you speak of double-standards! Israel is the greatest victim of double…

Rice: …Do you deny the facts in the Goldstone Report?

Cotler: That report is biased and illegitimate.

Rice: How can it be biased against Israel if Goldstone admitted that he biased his report to favour Israel?! Is this the sort of thinking The Lawfare Project endorses? Like the David Project and the Israel Project, this is just another zionist propaganda make-work project.

Cotler: Brian, are you interested in a debate or an Israel-bashing session?!

Cohen: Nobody’s bashing Israel, Irwin. Moving on to the subject of boycotts… Irwin, why is The Lawfare Project taking aim at the Boycott Divestment and Sanction movement? Aren’t these legitimate forms of political protest?

Cotler: This is prime example of how the world is ganging up on Israel. Any singling out of Israel amounts to demonization and anti-Semitism.

Rice: Oh, here we go…

Cotler: You endorse anti-Semitism, do you?

Rice: I think you need to check yourself back into the National Centre for Psychiatric Abnormality. (Cotler looks furious and starts raising his voice)

Cohen: Okayyyy, that sounds like the cue for a commercial break. (turns to the camera) We’ll be right back!” (2.5-minute pause) Now that we’ve had a chance to cool down, I want to return to the subject of BDS and the law. The BDS campaign against Israel is gathering steam one could argue that Israel is under selective attack. How would you respond, Stan?

Rice: I agree. Israel is under attack, but it’s a legitimate attack, just as the boycott against apartheid South Africa was a legitimate…

Cotler: …Equating Israel with South Africa is classic anti-Semitism and I won’t stand for…!

Cohen: …Irwin, we can’t have a productive debate if you continually go off on anti-Semitism. It makes intelligent discussion impossible. We’re here to talk about The Lawfare Project.

Rice: (cutting in) The Lawfare Project is designed in part to savage anyone who makes the case that Israel is an apartheid state, something that the editors of Ha’aretz newspaper and former Israeli cabinet minister Shulamit Aloni have already done, as if Irwin Cotler didn’t know. The Project goes after Israel’s condemners not because they are wrong, but because they are right!

Cohen: Irwin, does the Lawfare Project act on behalf of any other country that feels unfairly targeted by legal strategies?

Cotler: No. No other country is subjected to the kind of vilification and hatred that Israel must endure!

Cohen: I’m not so sure the government of China would agree, Toward the end of March, the Ontario Superior Court began hearing arguments on a 2004 civil case brought by six Falun Gong plaintiffs, including a Canadian citizen, against the government of Jiang Zemin for redress of torture. One of the intervenors for the plaintiffs is B’nai Brith lawyer David Matas, who rejected the defendants’ claim that they are immune from prosecution because they were state officials. Why has The Lawfare Project not come to China’s defence and what makes this case any different, legalistically, from human rights cases brought against Israel?

Cotler: There is absolutely no connection between legitimate human rights cases brought against an odious regime like China’s and illegitimate human rights cases brought against a democracy like Israel! I am surprised you would even bring up such an obviously inappropriate comparison!

Rice: Can I pick up on that?

Cohen: Sure.

Rice: The notion that Israel is somehow a special case permeates every aspect of the Middle East and makes a mockery of the very law Mr.Cotler purports to uphold. To give another example, did you know that the U.S. Department of Commerce acts as Israel’s proxy to sabotage boycotts?

Cohen: Hold on. What do you mean “proxy”?

Rice: The Bureau of Industry and Security in the Department of Commerce goes after U.S. companies that co-operate with businesses and countries that boycott Israeli goods. On June 25, 2003, The Kansas City Star reported that the bureau filed charges against Cook Composites and Polymers Co. because it confirmed to a customer in Bahrain that the goods being shipped did not contain any Israeli materials. Cook was forced to paying a $6,000 fine for violating U.S. Commerce Department regulations to counter the Arab boycott of Israel. All the company did was answer a question!

The article went on to say: “Knowing violators of the anti-boycott provisions face fines of up to $50,000, or five times the value of the exports at issue, and possible imprisonment. Offenders can also be denied export privileges.”

This is a perfect example of how Israel wages “Lawfare” to persecute individuals and groups who want to prosecute criminals. What we need is a “Lawfair” Project to defend individuals and groups from harassment and malicious propaganda. In a free society, “all’s fair in law and war.”

Cohen: (to the camera) On that pithy note, we’ll have to wrap things up. I’d like to thank my guests Irwin Cotler, and Carleton graduate student Stan Rice. See you next time on Face of the Nation. Good night.

Greg Felton is an investigative journalist specializing in the Middle East, Canadian politics, the media, and language. He holds a Master's Degree in political science from the University of British Columbia and speaks French, Russian, and Mandarin. He is author of The Host and The Parasite: How Israel's Fifth Column Consumed America. Read other articles by Greg, or visit Greg's website.

This article was posted on Friday, April 2nd, 2010 at 9:00am and is filed under Academic Freedom, Disinformation, Human Rights, Racism, Satire, Zionism.

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bozh said on April 2nd, 2010 at 10:16am #
It seems that only praise of israel or world jewry is accepted by the land robbers.
While facts, which cannot be refuted, are labeled “antisemitism” .
Using the label as proof that the fact is wrong, cannot ever prove that the fact is a nonfact.
Label, such antisemitism, appears as a conclusion; thus, is not a fact. Facts posited can be refuted only by other facts. But even then, only if the facts posited are indeed only lies.
Positing facts while omitting other pertinent or even more salient facts, i evaluate as lying.
If one wld select facts in Mein Kampf, quran, bible, torah, talmud, one cld ‘prove’ that hitler, mohammed, moshe were well-meaning and right.
If one relies on own eyes, one cld ‘prove’ that the earth is flat. If one makes one or more mistakes, another can easily ‘prove’ that that person is stupid.
It is no wonder we are in such deep mess with so many people thinking in that pattern! tnx
Rehmat said on April 2nd, 2010 at 12:36pm #
The Sixth International Israeli Apartheid Week (IAW) was observed on March 1-7 at 49 University Campuses around the world (see the official trailor at the end of this post). Many Israeli boot-licking Canadian politicians including Liberal Party leader, Michael Ignatieff has called the event, which orginated at University of Toronto in 2005 – as being “anti-Semite” as it criticizes Zionist state of Israel and therefore, spread hatred toward Jews. Interestingly, a Jewish academic organization, Independent Jewish Voices, is one of the event’s more than two-dozen sponsors. Canadian daily, The Toronto Star’s, columnist Thomas Walkom who attended the rally on Monday and reported in his column that the event has nothing to do with ‘anti-Semitism’ or ‘Jew-bashing’.
As expected, the powerful Israeli lobby groups, such as Canadian Jewish Congress (CJC), B’nai Brith, Jewish student groups at Canadian Campus, etc. have been campaiging against the Israeli Apartheid Week since the begining of the year. These pro-Israel Jewish groups were supported by 30 of the 107 members of Ontario provincial assembly and a porn video at (sizedoesnotmatter.ca) showing a couple in bed and suggesting that Israel may be small in size but it’s a spot of worship and being in there, feels like being in paradise. Conservative MP, Peter Shurman, told the Jewish website, Shalom Life: “If you’re going to label Israel as apartheid, then you’re also calling Canada apartheid and you’re attacking Canadian values”.
Earlier, the York University (Toronto) canceled February 22 pro-Israel event based on its speaker, Dr. Daniel Pipes’, well-known Islamophobe record. In the past years, students attending the IAW had been harrassed, rooms for IAW meetings canceled and IAW poster burned by the anti-IAW hooligans. Under Jewish lobby groups, Carleton University (Ottawa) and Trent University (Peterborough), IAW functions were banned in 2009.
International Israeli Apartheid Week 2010
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/international-israeli-apartheid-week-2010/
dino said on April 3rd, 2010 at 3:18am #
Why all Israeli’s propagandists who claim that Goldstone report is biased,is a “shame”,is anti-Semitic,like Irwin Colter or Dershowitz or American Congress, not respond to Goldstone invitation to show him exactly what in report is false,biased,untrue?How Cotler,for instance,knows what happened in Gaza?He made an inquiry?why Cohen didn’t ask him how he based his opinions?I’m sure that he didn’t do any inquiry and his claims are empty slogans repeated by Israel’s stooges like parrots almost in the same words.
Mulga Mumblebrain said on April 6th, 2010 at 12:46am #
Excellent exposition of just how raving mad the Zionists are. Mr Rice makes mincemeat of Cotler, who appears not to care how deranged he appears.Of course the Zionists have been the essence of ranting belligerence and spittle-spraying expectoration for years. I’ve seen various Zio-crazies on TV in this country who were clearly driven to ecstasies of rage when confronted by resistance. Such confrontations have disappeared from our broadcasts as the absolute pall of censorship of the Palestinian position has descended over recent years. Naturally, pointing out that some Judeofascist is raving mad is proof positive of ‘anti-semitism’, the supreme crime in the new religion of Judeomania that has become the state creed of the West.My mother was once the victim of Zionazi abuse herself. I well remember her old friend, a woman in her eighties, describing the event.My mother was at a meeting of the local Labor Party,of which she had been a member for decades. A new member, a South African Jew who had apparently found post-apartheid South Africa not to his liking, was there. A much younger man, and huge, he leapt to his feet when my mother suggested some action of support for the Palestinians, and began bellowing abuse.My mother’s old friend had to interpose herself as he advanced, screaming and yelling invective. She told me that she had never seen such hatred written across anyone’s face. My mother was scared rigid by it all, but regained her composure, and the Zionazi left, never to return. My mother might I say,grew up amongst Jews in Bondi, where many live, and has numerous Jewish friends to this day,all of whom were appalled.
One feature of this report that bears notice is the involvement of B’nai Brith is attacking China,using the CIA controlled cult Falun Gong. As I’ve said many times, China’s greatest enemy may be the US,which has no intention of losing its world dominating position., but its most dangerous foe is Zionism, which is central to one attack on China after another. Zionism cannot contemplate losing its world controlling role as the de facto ruling power in the West if China rises to dominance. I trust and hope that the Chinese leadership realise just what a treacherous, devious and dangerous foe they have in Zionism, and how deep is the Zionist contempt for all non-Jews, particularly those not infected with the hypocritical ideology of Western, Judeo-Christian, supremacism.
jon s said on April 6th, 2010 at 4:21am #
Mulga, sorry to ruin your fantasy, but the imaginary conflict between Zionism and China is exactly that: a fantasy, like the one about Jewish control, dominance, power. ..In reality Israel and China enjoy friendly (rather low-key) relations, based primarily on commerce. Maybe we should all envy you, Mulga: your obsession with the Jews provides you with a ready explanation and answer to any issue in the world.
Maien said on April 6th, 2010 at 8:43am #
I do not know jon s. I am sorry that I cannot give you the details any longer as I do not keep a record of the articles that i read but…. I know I have read two articles clearly dealing with Chinas attitudes towards Occupied Palestine/Zionism in August-October of 2009. In fact while travelling in the far east for several months I witnessed and became a part of a number of conversations where discussion centred on the agenda of World Zionists. This agenda was becoming visible to ordinary people…. in the area of Northern India/China. Especially after the terrorist attacks in Mumbai. ‘Follow the money’ is an adage which might spark some research interest in yourself. So… not a fantasy jon s!
As a Canadian I am ashamed that greed-ridden buffoons …certainly not statesmen…. populate our parliament. The Zionist Israeli agenda continues to grow insuring that everyone who was not born in Khazaria/Georgia becomes a controllable raving lunatic without ALL of the facts… in order to serve the colonialists from Europe.
Keep in mind, jon s… the Chinese have effectively been able to keep westerners out of their country for hundreds of years. Articles like this simply insure that we readers are reminded about the ‘clear logic’ that Zionists use to pursue their agenda. Yes, that was sarcasm jon s. What are all those claims about being superior? Boy oh boy…
Just curious jon s. Are you also jonas the teenager from somewhere in the US? Are the both of you earning something for posting?
Jonas Rand said on April 6th, 2010 at 9:12am #
No, Maien, I am not jon s and I do not know who he is. Where did you get that impression?
jon s is, self-admittedly, part of the “Zionist left”, which is a kind of left of center movement that, in my opinion, is quite pro-Israel and racist (just like “right-wing Zionism” is).
I am a teenager from the South West US, specifically the state of Nevada.
I do not support the two-state solution and certainly am opposed to the vicious and brutal occupation of Palestinian land by Israel, which is an inherently militaristic, violent state. The best solution, in my opinion, would be abolishing the state of Israel and the PNA and transforming it into a secular country, whereby Palestinians and Israeli Jews live together in a multicultural community of a country, where no one group has dominance over another. And yes, that means Hamas should have control over Gaza, with a sort of autonomous, democratic community control. This requires pressure on the illegal Israeli occupiers, who are perpetrating racism of the worst kind within the form of a government framework. The militarism of the Israeli government is also appalling, and it should stop.
I am sure that “jon s”, would disagree, preferring to state that Israel is being victimized by Hamas. I’m sorry, but Hamas would have no reason to launch extremely low-level attacks if Israel did not commit massive war crimes, like Operation Cast Lead. To my recollection, the only comment that I ever made to the effect of defending jon s’ statements was asking if there was any evidence to prove a number of claims that had been made about him. These included that he was trying to undermine this site’s purpose or that he was behaving in a way that was indicative of a “devil’s advocate”, i.e. here for the sole purpose of defending Israel. Yes, I made a comment saying that there were some statements made on this site by members criticizing, not Israel, but the Jewish religion, that could be interpreted as hatred towards Jews. This was not to say that I believed the member(s) in question had such intentions in mind – indeed, the member that I pointed out has never expressed hatred toward Jews as people, and I wouldn’t think such behavior characteristic of him/her. Some people I have come across on this site, like jon s, tend to misinterpret other statements, which is what inspired me to make the comment. I am not really sure what you mean by “earning something for posting”.
Jonas
jon s said on April 6th, 2010 at 11:59am #
Jonas, sorry that you were accused of being me…
Seriously, I can’t agree with much of what you say, particularly that the Zionist Left is just like the Right, and is racist. The Left in Israel has consistently opposed the occupation, the settlements, violations of human rights and all forms of racism. I’ve personally taken part in more demonstrations and marches on those issues than I care to count, so your characterization is wrong and slightly insulting.
In my view your “solution “ is both morally wrong and impractical. Both Israelis and Palestinians are entitled to states of their own. Your “solution” of “abolishing “ Israel and also denying the Palestinians their right, at long last, to a state of their own ,contradicts the basic right of all peoples to self-determination . And given present realities, throwing them together into a “multi-cultural community” sounds nice, but would become a bloodbath.
Israel is here to stay, so are the Palestinians, the 2-state solution is the only one that both sides can live with (just barely..) and that can lead to peace. (Notice how rarely the goal of achieving peace comes up on this forum…)
Merkin Muffley said on April 6th, 2010 at 8:29pm #
Sorry, Jon s, but Israelis are NOT entitled to a state.
First, Israelis are not “a people.” They are mostly European thieves who happen to be Jewish. There is no ethnic component. In fact, Jews are not “a people.” No less an authority than Professor Shlomo Sand showed that the idea of a Jewish people is a manufactured myth. The “state” of Israel is based on this myth, biblical fictions about King David, who never existed, and falsified holocaust guilt. None of these is a legitimate basis for a state.
A two-state solution is insane. Israel refuses to recognize Palestine’s right to exist, or respect international law. Israel is a gangster state that has contaminated the Middle East for more 7 decades, which means that peace with is Israel is a dangerous, deluded pipe dream.
Israel must be destroyed. There is no option. At the rate it’s going the destruction will be brought about by honest Jews.
Jonas Rand said on April 6th, 2010 at 10:00pm #
Merkin, Palestine has no “right to exist”. Nor does Israel, though they happen to be the only country arrogant enough to claim they do.
I don’t believe that Israel’s non-inherent “right to exist” should be “violated”, just that the PNA and Israel should gradually be replaced by one bi-national state.
I support the two-state not as a solution, but as a temporary transition. I don’t think the Jews should be evicted from Palestine/Israel, just that nobody should hold power over anyone else.
Maien said on April 6th, 2010 at 11:55pm #
My apologies Jonas for my inattentive reading and assumption/question. and i am sure that you understand the term ‘provocateur’.
Just a thought. Other colonial enterprises generally when ended see much of the occupying group return to their actual homeland.
Since you are a teenager have you had the opportunity to live/work/play within a 3rd world or developing nation or a nation devastated by war?
Jonas Rand said on April 7th, 2010 at 12:28am #
I hope that I didn’t convey any hard feelings in my post above; I do understand the term ‘provocateur’. I am quite sensitive about my identity after having the unfortunate experience of being accused, by a staff member of a forum web site, now with 10,000+ posts, of being a bored middle-aged woman who impersonates teenage boys online.
No Maien. I have never left the USA. I am 13 years old.
Merkin Muffley said on April 7th, 2010 at 1:33am #
Jonas:
Palestine has EVERY right to exist. It is the victim of theft. I find it bizarre that you would give the thief of Palestine consideration equal to its victim.
The 2-state solution is wholly insane. Remember the 1990s and the “Oslo agreements?” Israel was supposed to abide by UNSC Res. 242, but throughout it double the number of Jewish colonies and Jewish colonists.
Any talk of 2-states presupposes honour among Israelis, and we know how ludicrous THAT concept is.
You can have peace or you can have Israel; you cannot have both. That’s just reality.
jon s said on April 7th, 2010 at 6:51am #
Merkin, Don’t forget to destroy the US, Canada, Australia, Argentina…whose people are “mostly European thieves”. The Jews have had a continuous attachment to and presence in the land of Israel/Palestine for thousands of years. Learn some History.
Jonas, OK, I can agree with much of what you say. It’s just that earlier you said that Israel should be “abolished” and I was wondering whether you were advocating genocide.
Maien, Sorry, this is our homeland.
Merkin Muffley said on April 7th, 2010 at 8:29am #
Jon s.
You cannot compare Israel to any of the countries you mentioned. No other state has been ALLOWED to commit atrocities under the cover of international law. Are you trying to rationalize Jewish atrocities? Israel is in a category all of its own.
Second, the Jewish attachment to the land is irrelevant. This is standard zionist disinformation. The Jews who lived in Palestine before the invasion of Europeans lived in peace with Muslim and Christian Palestinians. It was with the invasion of the Ashkenazim, aided by the anti-Jewish governments of Europe, that created Israel, which is nothing more than an example of European fascist colonialism. The Jews who stole Arab land and called it “Israel” were thoroughly secular and looked down upon religious Jews as traitors to the faith for wanting to live in Christian Europe.
Third, there is no such thing as a Jewish homeland, because Jews are not a people, as I said, and which you did not address.
Fourth, do not presume to lecture me about history. You are only 13 years old, and therefore not in a position to talk down to anyone. Show some respect and learn how to argue.
Maien said on April 7th, 2010 at 8:45am #
jon s . I guess that is what makes you so special. Sorry , Palestine is not YOUR homeland. Learn actual history yourself.
I simply do not understand your ability with rationale thought. Just because someone else ALSO does something wrong… does not make your bad behaviour acceptable. This is simply the argument of a three to five year old child.
You are an adult…correct?
As your arguments simply repeat …over and over …. the same outrageously …. childlike ‘thinking’, could you not at least communicate with those who also have similar limits in their thinking style. On the other hand, for those who have either through intelligence …or education actually learned how to identify immature thinking … I guess you do serve as a wonderful example of ….. the childlike logic which ignores and misunderstands reality because a child is so wholly involved with, “It’s mine! It’s mine! I want it! I am right!”
Look at the false assumption that you made in your last post.
bozh said on April 7th, 2010 at 9:43am #
Maien, yes! U’r right
Numerous tribes or peoples have lived in excanaan prior to hebrew arrival there.
Arabs, such as arameans arrived in canaan ca 4 kyrs ago. Hebrew ethnos was just one of many ethnoses that lived in that region since at the latest 8 k y ago.
At one time it became a total melting pot of hivvites, hitites, amonites, hebrews, jebusites, amonites, amorites, philistines, et al.
The pop probably had not exceded more than 200k people even as late as 1k yrs ago.
So, ‘jews’ cling to an illusion that hebrews survived as pure hebrews. In add’n, recent invaders have no connection whatever to zion or palestine. tnx
jon s said on April 7th, 2010 at 12:44pm #
Merkin, Sorry if I offended you,I really would prefer to keep the discussion on topic and not personal . What I meant when I said “learn History” was that you can easily look up the historical facts.
Calling Jewish immigration an “invasion” of Ashkenazim reflects your distorted view. The fact that the immigration took place proves that their attachment was not irrelevant.
Zionism was in fact quite different from European colonialism (an issue that I addressed in a previous post). What kind of aid did the Zionists receive from European governments?
With all due respect, who are you – or anyone else – to determine other people’s identity? (that the Jews are “not a people”). It reminds me of arguments I’ve had with Right-wing Israelis who contend that there’s no Palestinian people. “Self -determination ” means just that : people have the right to define their identity, Jews think of themselves as a people, Palestinians think of themselves as a people, therefore they both are peoples, nations.
And finally, I’m not 13, that would be Jonas.
Maien said on April 7th, 2010 at 9:48pm #
Of course their ‘attachment’ is not irrelevant! Ask any Palestinian!
Do European governments really matter when money is being funnelled through private channels? Does the ‘AID’ from the american government count? or in your mind does America already belong to the Zionists? No one here has stated or tried to imply that you are 13.
I have stated that your thinking skills are in want. The number of distractions that you employed in your last post would tend to validate my statement and observations, to date. Of course, I am replying to Jon s.
Merkin Muffley said on April 8th, 2010 at 12:58am #
Jon s.:
I really think you should start doing some real research instead of parroting standard hasbara. Zionism IS a colonial movement. What else do you call European Jews barging into Palestine, evicting the native people, and calling it a Jewish state? Zionism has no legitimacy whatever, and contrary to you assertion, my view of the EuroJewish invasion is not distorted.
In fact the invasion is close in mentality and criminality to German fascism, which is not surprising since zionist Jews were vital allies of the Third Reich.
I have every right to say the Jewish people do not exist, because they don’t. First, the claim is supported by a Jewish scholar who has done painstaking work to show that the “Jewish people” is a political contrivance. There is no ethnic group called Christians or Muslims, so why are Jews deemed special? Just because they SAY they are a people doesn’t make it so.
Your equation of Jew with Palestinian is false: Palestinians are an ethic people defined so politically and ethnically. Since a Palestinian may also be a Jew, your definitions are incompatible.
jon s said on April 9th, 2010 at 2:35am #
I’m not “parroting ” anything, at least not any more than you are.
The oft-repeated contention that Zionism is akin to 19th-century European colonialism is simply wrong. There are some superficial similarities, but the differences outweigh the similarities.
Zionism indeed arose in Europe, and originally endeavored to bring a largely European ethnic group to settle in the East, while taking advantage of the weakness of the local authorities (the Ottoman empire, at the time).
But:
Colonialism was designed and directed by the “mother country” (Britain, France, etc.),for the benefit of the mother-country. Zionism had no mother-country which sent and supported the immigrants. In colonialism profits were extracted from the colony and repatriated to Europe. In Zionism investment in Israel and any profits, stayed in Israel and were largely re-invested, for further development.
Moreover, Zionism was based on the perception that the Jews were returning to their ancestral homeland. No British settler in India, or French settler in Algeria, had the idea that they were re-connecting with their historical roots. The Jews did not come as foreign conquerors, and were not accompanied by an army and a navy. While colonialists could simply take land by force and drive out the existing population – the Zionists purchased land at the going price, from Arab landowners, at least until 1948.
Do you really think that one controversial book ,by one historian, will cause the Jewish people to disappear?
And yes, if a sizable group of people SAY that they’re a people, then they are. It’s a basic right of self-determination.
Finally as to the Zionists being “allies” of the Third Reich, I hope you’re not serious. It’s not even funny.

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