An Open Letter to Pope Benedict XVI

by Angie Tibbs / May 11th, 2009

Your Holiness,

It was with great shock, sadness, and, yes, anger that I viewed the itinerary of your current trip to the Holy Land, a land beset by the unholiest of human actions.

I am very troubled and hugely disappointed that, as leader of the Catholic Church, you have chosen to ignore the people of Gaza, who, just three months ago, were being bombarded by land, sea, and air by the Israeli military.

Fourteen hundred of their loved ones, including over 400 children, were killed in that 22 day assault, killed without mercy by Jewish soldiers, supported by, in one Israeli survey, a “whopping 94 percent” of Jews in Israel.

Your Holiness, how can you justify this decision to bypass Gaza and its people? How can you reconcile not visiting a devastated people in a devastated land, living under a three year siege, while you are partaking in activities in Israel? You are scheduled to meet with Israel’s two Chief Rabbis. Will you also meet with Gaza’s long-serving Catholic priest, Fr. Manuel Mussallam?

What, I wonder, is the real purpose of your visit?

Certainly it is not to offer comfort, love, and compassion to those that need it most. If this were the reason, you would have stipulated that Gaza and its people be an integral part of your journey.

You would meet with the families, sympathize with the victims of Israeli bombs, missiles, tanks. You would talk to the homeless. You would offer the people of Gaza some much needed encouragement, a spiritual uplifting, perhaps, as they struggle through an economic hardship deliberately imposed by their oppressors.

You would meet with the duly elected Palestinian leaders, Hamas, the only social, economic, and resistance life line that the Palestinian people have ever had. I haven’t seen anyone else helping them, and obviously you have no intentions of helping them either. And that, to me, your Holiness, is truly unacceptable.

You are shunning the people who are most in need of help, most in need of comfort, most in need of love and support.

Can you not find it in your heart to walk amongst them, to reach out to them, to talk to them, to comfort them, to publicly pray for them?

Is this not what Jesus would do? Would Jesus not speak out in the midst of so much pain and suffering?

Are you not expected to display similar compassion and concern?

To turn your back on Gaza and its people will be a moral catastrophe, one that will reverberate throughout the ages. You will leave behind a legacy as the Pope who not only closed his eyes to a slow motion genocide being carried out against the Palestinian people, but also as the Pope who refused to even acknowledge the Palestinian people in Gaza during their time of great hardship.

I strongly urge you to reconsider your decision. The faithful of the world are watching. If, as we are told, there is a God, then he must be watching too.

The people of Gaza are waiting. Please, let this be their “miracle.”

Sincerely,

Angie Tibbs

Angie Tibbs is Editor of Dissident Voice and Editor of Poetry on Sunday. She can be reached at: angie@dissidentvoice.org. Read other articles by Angie.

This article was posted on Monday, May 11th, 2009 at 10:00am and is filed under Beliefs, Israel.

60 comments on this article so far ...

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Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist! said on May 11th, 2009 at 10:34am #
Amen!
Al said on May 11th, 2009 at 11:28am #
This pope is what all popes before him have been: snake oil salesmen!
RH2 said on May 11th, 2009 at 11:46am #
His “Holiness” has visited the “Holy Land” to appease Zionists and their cohorts. He stressed the magic number of 6 million and declared that “antisemitism is unacceptable”. But he did not have the courage to declare that occupation and genocide are also unacceptable. He only “hears cries for peace” ! Which peace cries does he hear? Palestinian or Israeli ones? Does he believe that occupation is unacceptable? Does he at all believe that there is occupation?
Michael Kenny said on May 11th, 2009 at 12:26pm #
Ms Tibbs is obviously not a Catholic, since she essentially accuses the Pope of not being a Protestant, to which I assume he would plead guilty! Israel’s refusal to let him go where he likes, meet who he likes, say Mass where he likes etc. does immense damage to Israel and highlights just how much the once mighty Israelis are now on the defensive. According to the BBC, Israel’s Catholics are not allowed full religious freedom. Now that’s a bit of dirt nobody expected to come out! Israel’s and Palestine’s Christians are all Arabs, who suffer the same fate as all Palestinians and Israeli Arabs, and by drawing attention to them, and to the way he has been prevented fron meeting them, the Pope, without lifting a finger and without uttering a word, draws attention to the whole Israel problem. If this article is the best the smear merchants can come up with, I think the Pope will probably be well pleased!
bozh said on May 11th, 2009 at 12:54pm #
i did not expect any fairness from pope. While he condemns an invention like “antisemitism” he neglects to mention or may not see at all the judeo-christian antishemitism.
nobody in his/her mind can be antisemitic; one can only be against ‘jewish’ crimes.
one cannot be an antichristian or antimoslem; one can be only against christian and moslem actual or perceived crimes.
does pope know this? propbably!
occupation is a crime. So is the raid against gazan civilians. And pope knows it!
after saying all this, i must point out that meanings are in pope or catholic church and not in symbols they use.
when he uses such a symbol as antisemitism, only he knows what he meant.
for all that we know he may have meant to say for people to stop desecrating ‘jewish’ cemeteries or cease with personal attacks on ‘jews’.
and he wld be right? tnx
RH2 said on May 11th, 2009 at 1:01pm #
The BBC has not revealed any secret and Israel does not expect any dirt to come out. The Vatican and the world already know about the dirt of Arab Christians in Palestine. Thousands of them have emigrated to the U.S., Canada and Australia (an easy ethnic cleansing for Israel).
It is not only a matter of a visit or speech permit, but also a matter of courage and honesty. A short while ago I read the speech of his „Holiness“ at the Holocaust Memorial Jad Vaschem in Jerusalem this evening, „ Antisemitism must be combated everywhere with a supreme effort.“ We actually do not know, how his “Holiness” defines anti-Semitism? And why not ‘Occupation must be combated everywhere with a supreme effort’ too? Not necessarily in Jad Vaschem, but nowhere has he said it before.
Jeff said on May 11th, 2009 at 2:41pm #
This seems like an olive leaf for crucification of jews by the Romans. The Romans were pagan. What does this actually say about this “reaching out”?! Whom IS reaching out?! Ya, what would Jesus be doing right now? Oh, I know! Exposing EVIL. Oh, then the cr(oss)cifiction would need to be once again resurrected. Some say that is yet to happen. Maybe that is actually what is going on. Any one take seconds on that?
Suthiano said on May 11th, 2009 at 2:43pm #
The Rothchild’s have long been in charge of guarding the Vatican treasures.
The pope is a godless fascist, entirely in league with the “NWO”.
Suthiano said on May 11th, 2009 at 2:46pm #
Jeff,
all the forces most vehemently condemned by Jesus are the most powerful in the world: the banks, the lawyers, and the sowers of schism all reign supreme.
“Christianity” has never taken hold… it has been taken over by those who had Christ killed. It’s the biggest ruse in history.
osman said on May 11th, 2009 at 3:35pm #
I agree with the article,however I am surprised that Ms.Tibbs is surprised.
In an age where the head of the catholic church pretends that noone betrayed Christ,one can expect anything.
He will go and shed tears on every zionist monument there is in Israel and if they were more ,he would go and cry there too.
The christians and muslims of Palestine are indeed coakroches,terrorrists,bandits whose women and children deserve to be massacred.Amen.
What is Ms.Tibbs surprised about?The Vatican licks and obeys ,off course,if the US does,how can the Vatican resist to the blacmail ,lies
and dictatorship of the chosen ones.
Michael Pugliese said on May 11th, 2009 at 4:45pm #
Lordy me, is this a FAR RIGHT, John Birch Society blog?
Re: The Rothchild’s have long been in charge of guarding the Vatican treasures.
The pope is a godless fascist, entirely in league with the “NWO”.
Jeff said on May 11th, 2009 at 5:25pm #
Suthiano, what is the definition of “EVIL”? Watch for long thin tracks in the sand!
Garrett said on May 11th, 2009 at 5:28pm #
Allegedly condemned by the alleged Jesus. Gawd I despise religion. It’s such a plague on humanity.
Venting over.
Jeff said on May 11th, 2009 at 5:32pm #
Garrett, do any one of us have the balls to stand up to the forces of evil that control our lives? Do YOU? Check your words! Their is no religion! There is only faith! Do YOU have faith in your fellow man?
Suthiano said on May 11th, 2009 at 5:35pm #
The “definition” of EVIL is the same as the “definition” of “religion”… that is it has been used in many different ways in many different contexts…
Evil, in my opinion, and the way I intended to use it, refers to systematic anti-social behaviour, such as the behaviour of money lenders, lawyers and there ilk. Thus slavery was evil…. it was systematically anti-social… we are paying the prices now with race-relations, and quality of life in the United States.
Corporatism would be anti-social, because even in the Corporate world, in which the corporation is a person, they are legally bound to try to destroy the other “people” in their field.
“God I hate religion”…. what is the definition of religion?
Suthiano said on May 11th, 2009 at 5:36pm #
Sorry Jeff, I got your post and Garret’s confused.
Jeff said on May 11th, 2009 at 5:48pm #
Once again, check.
Those whom ARE in control will use your words against you.
“What you do not know can and will hurt you”!
Garrett said on May 11th, 2009 at 5:50pm #
No, I’m not confused. I just sort of went off topic. Tough day and felt like venting.
For how long now have leftists/liberals/progressives been trying the WWJD tactic? For instance, how many times has it been pointed out that the Bible, which itself is merely a novel, is filled with inconsistencies and ludicrous laws that in no way pertain to modern day life, only to see folks cling steadfastly to their belief that homosexuality is an abomination? The so-called Christian Right is as hypocritical as any group could be…but it seems they are invulnerable to such criticism.
The Pope doesn’t give a damn that non-Christians are being slaughtered on a daily basis.
Jeff said on May 11th, 2009 at 5:58pm #
Garrett, scripture is a “law” book. You may come back and say what law! The law that all western societies are based on. Does this mean those laws are correct? IMHO absolutely not. Scripture has been “usurped” or “used for advantage” by those whom have “interpreted” these “scriptures” for “gain”. Has someone made a gain on YOU? Have you “borrowed” money? Should this be the case You have been gained upon! Read scripture. UNDERSTAND. I do.
kalidas said on May 11th, 2009 at 6:03pm #
Jeff uses the word “pagan” as if it means something baser than the word Judaic.
Ha. Ha.
That is a joke, is it not?
joed said on May 11th, 2009 at 6:36pm #
jeff your so full of crap. western legal concepts and law started with a persian guy named hammurabi. he was around long before the dumb ass bible. the christians have hijacked morality and claim it for themselves but there is one dope that knows better. jesus is a fiction and god and the devil and angels and the tooth fairy are all for ignorant childish humans that never grew up and therefore are not moral beings and probably never will be. so there!!
Jeff said on May 11th, 2009 at 7:37pm #
“kalidas said on May 11th, 2009 at 6:03pm #”
‘Jeff uses the word “pagan” as if it means something baser than the word Judaic.
Ha. Ha.
That is a joke, is it not?’
kalidas, please mix your words.
Jeff said on May 11th, 2009 at 7:41pm #
joed, your rant is. Rest in peace.
mary said on May 12th, 2009 at 1:28am #
He won’t speak out when he visits Bethlehem but if he does, could he say that only 13% of the town, which is in the so-called Occupied Palestinian Territories, is available to the Palestinians.
‘The combined effect of Israeli annexation, the West Bank barrier, settlements, settler bypass roads, closed military zones and Israeli nature reserves, has left only 13% of the 660 sq km Bethlehem governorate available for Palestinian use, the UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs says.’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/06/israel-army-bethlehem-un
For the report: http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_bethlehem_shrinking_space_may_2009_english.pdf
O little town of Bethlehem, how still we see thee lie!
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep the silent stars go by.
Yet in thy dark streets shineth the everlasting Light;
The hopes and fears of all the years are met in thee tonight.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1230111687771
Lloyd said on May 12th, 2009 at 5:16am #
Wonderful letter, Angie. But is it wailing at a blank wall?
Angie Tibbs said on May 12th, 2009 at 5:56am #
Mr. Kenny, do not assume to know what my religious affilitation, if any, is. You do not know, and quite frankly, it is hardly any of your business.
I addressed the Pope as a concerned citizen of the universe. As the leader of the world’s largest church, surely he could have insisted on (a) visiting the destitute in Gaza or (b) refrained from visiting Israel. He choose the easiest route and as a result he deserves the disapproval of all people, religious or otherwise.
You can attempt to colour, distort, change the meaning of what I wrote, sir, but you cannot change the fact that Pope Benedict did not go where he is/was needed most, and he was needed most amongst the deliberately forgotten, the deliberately oppressed, the deliberately starved in Gaza, and this is truly unacceptable.
Josie Michel-Brüning said on May 12th, 2009 at 9:16am #
Thanks Angie Tibbs for your “open” letter to the pope.
It was worthy for trying, any way, I think.
Regardless of the history of the Catholic Church and its failures and crimes, regardless, if you believe in God or not, it is worthy taking those public respresentatives – what ever they may represent in reality – at their words, in case of this pope it is his Encyclica, “Deus Caritas est”, and his acts are contradictionary to his own words.
The same is about Obama’s promising for “Change”.
We have to take them at their words, and if they are not ashamed and return to their words, they are revealed by public opinion.
To tell the truth is one weapon we have.
RH2 said on May 12th, 2009 at 9:28am #
Angie Tibbs,
Your expectation from the pope is understandable and your message goes down well. In content I have not found the post you mean here as capable of distorting your message. I would have not worried about that.
Angie Tibbs said on May 12th, 2009 at 9:38am #
I wish to apologize to Viva Palestina for not mentioning them in my Open Letter to Pope Benedict above. I stated in part that: “I haven’t seen anyone else helping them, and obviously you have no intentions of helping them either.”
This is correct insofar as leaders of the so-called “international community” are concerned, and certainly insofar as Pope Benedict XVI is concerned, but there is a huge and marvellous exception.
And that is the courageous people who made up the Viva Palestina convoy that arrived in Gaza in early March 09.
Some 109 trucks, laden with medical aid, food, toys, and other supplies, escorted by 500 caring people, travelled across two continents, seven countries, and some 6, 214 miles to be with the people of Gaza at a time when they needed help most, and to offer them love and support, to be with them when they were still reeling from the onslaught of a savage Israeli military.
The heroism of the people who made up the Viva Palestina convoy, and those who gave of their time and money to help make it happen, will remain forever as a sterling example of real human kindness and compassion.
Pope Benedict, on the other hand, a stone’s throw away from the people of Gaza during the past few days, showed them neither human kindness or compassion. He wouldn’t even visit with them.
mary said on May 12th, 2009 at 2:34pm #
Also most worthy of mention are the Free Gaza people in their boats, one of which was rammed by the Israeli navy, the International Solidarity Movement volunteers working in Gaza, the aid shop Tali hijacked by Israel, and a recent Italian boat carrying aid. There will be a fleet of Free Gaza boats going to Gaza in June.
mary said on May 12th, 2009 at 2:45pm #
This shocking news has just come in this evening about the daughter of Bergen-Belsen survivors, Amira Hass. Such solidarity from Ms Dalia Dorner! No one is allowed to enter or leave the open air prison known as Gaza. (Remember the Martha Gellhorn prizewinner Mohammed Omer being assaulted by Shin Bet when he returned to Gaza from the London award ceremony).
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1084996.html
Last update – 19:37 12 /05/2009
Haaretz reporter Amira Hass arrested upon leaving Gaza
By Haaretz Service
Israel Police on Tuesday detained Haaretz correspondent Amira Hass upon her exit from the Gaza Strip, where she had been living and reporting over the last few months.
Hass was arrested and taken in for questioning immediately after crossing the border, for violating a law which forbids residence in an enemy state. She was released on bail after promising not to enter the Gaza Strip over the next 30 days.
Hass is the first Israeli journalist to enter the Gaza Strip in more than two years, since the Israel Defense Forces issued an entry ban following the abduction of IDF soldier Gilad Shalit in a 2006 cross-border raid by Palestinian militants.
Last December, Hass was arrested by soldiers at the Erez Checkpoint as she tried to cross into Israel after having entered the Gaza Strip aboard a ship run by peace activists from Europe.
Upon discovering that she had no permit to be in Gaza, the soldiers transferred her to the Sderot police.
When questioned, Hass pointed out that no one had stopped her from entering the Strip, which she did for work purposes.
Hass was released then under restriction, and Nahmani said her case would be sent to court.
Israel Press Council chairwoman Dalia Dorner, a former Supreme Court justice, commented then that even journalists are subject to the law and the council cannot defend a reporter who breaks the law. Instead, she said, local journalists ought to petition the High Court of Justice against the army’s order.
Related articles:
Amira Hass returns to Gaza after a two-year absence
Amira Hass / Palestinian doctor killed by IDF while treating Gaza wounded
Too many authorities
It depends who is doing the torturing
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amira_Hass
Peter said on May 12th, 2009 at 8:50pm #
The Pope would have been better off not making the trip. Any time any leader of a foreign country or someone of similar stature visits Israel, he or she is required to visit Yad-Vashem, Israel’s holocaust memorial. If a leader does not visit Yad-Vashem, Jews will criticize him. The other critical point here is that the press throughout the western world (which has significant Jewish representation) has a news story every time the Pope or someone else visits Israel and Yad-Vashem. Most or all the western countries press would criticize the Pope or another leader for not visiting Yad-Vashem. The other critical point is that Yad-vashem and the holocaust is used to prevent any western leader (its particularly powerful against a German such as the Pope) from criticizing Jews or Israel. This allows Israel to get away with bloody murder in the world , empower Israel and empower Jewish interests in many other ways.
I was watching World News yesterday. It comes on at 5 pm or 6 pm where I
live. They were interviewing another media person that was Jewish or Israeli. This person relayed what he said was Israel’s disappointment that the Pope did not :
1) apologize for the holocaust
2) apologize for Catholic behavior towards Jews in the past and
3) talk more about the holocaust because the Pope was a ‘”personal witness” to it.
I think this is incredibly nervy, or as Jews would say, he has a lot of Chutzpah.
1) Why does the Pope have to apologize for something he did not do? The Pope is a German Catholic, but he is not Adolf Hitler. Is every Jew in the world guilty for the massacre that occurred in Gaza a few moths ago? The old accusation against Jews was that they killed Jesus and this was always held against them over the centuries. This is obviously wrong, but now they use the same logic against Catholics, Germans or any other European.
2) How many centuries back is the Pope suppose to apologize for regarding Catholic behavior and how often. Is a Catholic suppose to apologize to a Jew every time he meets one for something that occurred maybe 500 years ago. Should he apologize for the Spanish Inquisition in the 1500’s? I also have to wonder when I watch western TV (American, German, British they all report the same way) or read the western press – Has any Jew in their 6000 year history ever done anything wrong? I have the feeling the answer is no. Even when they murder 1,400 defenseless Palestinian’s, the Jews are apparently victims in this situation also.
3) The Pope was an 18 year old German boy when the war ended. He did not “witness the holocaust”. He did not work in a concentration camp. He was in Germany (which itself had a very small Jewish population). The atrocities occurred in Poland and other eastern European countries. The Pope may have witnessed the hundreds of thousands (or perhaps millions) of German citizens that were deliberately murdered when British and American’s dropped bombs on them in their cities. He may have witnessed one or more of the two million German women that were gang raped and many murdered by Soviet soldiers.
Many European countries suffered horribly in WW I and WW II. In a war, every country has done things they should not be proud of. There were Jews in positions of power in the Soviet Union that were responsible for horrible atrocities. But the western press would have people believe that Jews are some sort of moral ubermensch (or superman) and Gentiles are inferior. This would particularly apply to A German gentile who we have been told for more than 60 years now is the lowest form of human being on the planet.
Of course now we are told the Arabs are the aggressors and Israel (or Jews) are the victims, when all the evidence points to the contrary.
Suthiano said on May 12th, 2009 at 9:45pm #
“You were not asked to do something unprecedented or heroic. All that was required from you was a brief, authoritative and touching sentence. All you had to do was to express regret. That’s all we wanted to hear,” wrote Hanoch Daum, a columnist for the Yedioth Ahronoth daily.
I’m still waiting for an Israeli religious, political or military leader to accept guilt, let alone express regret, for the horrible atrocities committed in Gaza. I’m not holding my breath.
bozh said on May 13th, 2009 at 6:07am #
peter,
partisans, led by communists, are not known for raping women. Neither were USSR soldiers known for raping german women. Communists were fighting hated fascism. Soldiers led by fascists are known to rape women and perp other atrocities.
so, it is unlikely that communists wld ape fiercely abhored fascists and their fascsism.
USSR was hated by fascsist media. Remember the media reports of only fat russian women? What is that tell you? And look now at our women!
in addition, most germans were fleeing advancing soviet troops because of [non]realistic fears. tnx
Michael Kenny said on May 13th, 2009 at 7:17am #
From the BBC website: “The Pope said his heart went out to those caught up in the conflict in Gaza, adding that he was praying for end to the embargo on the territory” and “[t]he pontiff will also meet representatives of the tiny Catholic community in Gaza, a few [of whom] have been given special permission by the Israeli authorities to travel to Bethlehem.”
It will be fun to watch Ms Tibbs or someone else weaving and dodging and wriggling and squirming and bluffing and blustering that the above somehow “wasn’t enough”!
Angie Tibbs said on May 13th, 2009 at 7:48am #
Pope Benedict XVI DID NOT go to Gaza.
That is the topic of my Open Letter. Nothing more, nothing less.
I will leave the “weaving and dodging and wriggling and squirming and bluffing and blustering”, to you, Mr. Kenny, as you strive to justify this glaring, shameful, cowardly and callous omission on the part of this Pope. .
Peter said on May 13th, 2009 at 8:31am #
Bozh,
You are correct that the media distorts things. Have you ever heard of any war crime committed by the allies against the Germans? The answer is no. What does that tell you?
It is a known fact that the Red Army perpetrated mass rape against German women – the estimate is two million German women were raped, many gang raped and in front of their families and then killed with the rest of the family.
My own mother came close to being raped herself. She and other women were forced to strip naked to humiliate them. Fortunately she was not raped and eventually escaped captivity. Don’t tell me atrocities were not committed against Germans!
Other books have documented the death and destruction the Red army brought to the German people when it entered Germany. Just two months ago a grave of two thousand Germans was found in Poland – the bullet holes in their skulls show they were shot thru the head. The perpetrators were either Poles or Russians, but its believed the Russian army did this. Did you see this in the press here? Of course not, but how many times was another holocaust story discussed? Books on history have been written about the mass rape of German women and European documentaries and films have been made. The fact that you are unaware of this fact is not surprising. There is never any mention of what was done to the Germans by the allies in the USA.
These rapes occurred as the biggest migration of people in all of history occurred inn early 1945. Fourteen million Germans were fleeing the Soviet army, leaving land their ancestors had lived on since the middle ages, never to be allowed to return to their homes. This is also a historical fact, but how many Americans are aware of this? Virtually none.
I’m aware of the crimes the Germans committed, we are told about them every day more than sixty years after the war. The media distorts the history so that you think only the “hated fascists” committed war crimes. The concentration of the media on the crimes the German’s committed is what allows Israel to kill 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza and tell the world Israel is the victim.
I’m also aware of how beautiful Russian women are. I had a Russian girlfriend a few years ago.
bozh said on May 13th, 2009 at 8:43am #
i don’t read MSM, so i don’t know that Pope said what BBC says. But even so, the “caught up in the conflict in gaza”, said by whomever, is a shameful utterance.
the implications of that- what i call a vacuity- appear to me as casuistry of the worst kind. Analog may be in saying that gypsies [now called roms or romas], ‘jews’, slavs were caught up in conflict in ’36-45 in e.europe.
and then, pope, after this most bitter pill, supposedly said that “his heart goes out” to gazans.
he even omits, as far as i know, to affirm that people caught [in huge fire balls engendered by unknown {natural, is it?} forces were not permitted to leave the area.
and if the civilians were not allowed to run for safety prior to this act of nature/pope’s god, who prevented the exodus for safety?
one answer is that the ‘jewish’ and christian ‘gods’ kept the future gazan victims in raid zone. tnx
Peter said on May 13th, 2009 at 8:43am #
Bozh,
Here is an article on the mass rape of German women perpetrated by the allies. I say allies, because the Americans and British were also guilty. A movie is being made about this.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,585779,00.html
Peter said on May 13th, 2009 at 8:52am #
Correction to above:
American and French soldiers raped German women. British soldiers are not known to have done this.
bozh said on May 13th, 2009 at 9:21am #
peter,
i have expressed doubt that soviet soldiers were allowed to rape any women.
i am aware that alllies have inflicted severe punishment on german people. Firebombing of dresden had been written about here in canada.
i know that czechs have expelled sudeten germans.
yugoslav gov’t had expelled some 300T volksdeutcher from voivodina, now and then in serbia.
however, i recall that bonn gov’t in the ’60s repeatedly complained to polish communists for not letting germans leave poland for western germany.
when germans were defeated at stalingrad, some 300? german soldiers were taken prisoner by the red army. I am not aware if red army perped any crimes against these prisoners.
one incident i still vividly recall. In my home town of sibenik on adriatic coast, the smal german garrison held in early ’44 for a few days 45 partizani. Then released all of them. I was told, all rejoined partizani.
it seems that the german Kommandant saw the writing on the wall. He may have obtained a promise that his garrison wld not be attacked or held prisoners once the town wld be liberated by partizani.
the town was liberated a yr later without a shot fired.
germans have left a few weeks before liberation.
other germans cld have at the end of the war done the same thing.
it may be noted that germans have not perped crimes against croat civilians but only against partisans.
the wehrmacht had issued order to execute on spot every captured partisan.
they were considered to be, what to ‘jews’ are palestinian ‘terrorists’.
tnx
Peter said on May 13th, 2009 at 9:42am #
Bozh,
You said, “i have expressed doubt that soviet soldiers were allowed to rape any women”. If you read the article I posted above, you may stop expressing that doubt. Here is the article again on the mass rape of German women:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,585779,00.html
You said, “i am aware that alllies have inflicted severe punishment on german people”. You have a way with words. Perhaps the wehrmacht inflicted severe punishment on the allies for the land taken from Germany at Versailles, the economic strangulation of Germany and the blockade against Germany even after WW I was over that caused many Germans to die of starvation (after the war was over). The allies committed atrocities against Germans.
Fortunately for you, it is legal for you to “deny” the mass rape of German women in WW II. If someone “denies” the holocaust occurred in Europe, most countries will put you in jail. I believe Canada may have this law also.
Peter said on May 13th, 2009 at 9:48am #
Regarding Stalingrad, 91,000 Germans were taken captive. 5,000 returned home in 1955. The rest were all killed (either outright, thru starvation or other ways).
bozh said on May 13th, 2009 at 11:13am #
peter,
i clearly do not deny that soviet soldiers have raped german women. However, doubting some historians and some proisraeli ones, is highly recommended.
as for der spiegel- it being privately owned- i trust as much as nyt, wash’n post, or j’lem post.
so, please spare me the spiegel and german historians’ lecture. I want to hear also from roma’s and and slav historians.
i think, an army of 300T besieged stalingrad. And, as u say, only 50T surrendered to soviets; of which 5T returned to germany.
bozh said on May 13th, 2009 at 11:26am #
peter,
regarding US invasion of europe in apr ’17 and what it caused/changed, i have posted several posters about that. Had US not attacked exhausted germany, the patrician war most likely wld have ended as it was prior to US aggression: stalemated.
thus wld have brought us an entirely different pakt. Which would have precluded rise of nazism and it coming to power and the ww2.
holocaust wld have not occurred.
yes, germany wld have been justified in waging war to regain lost lands but not with nazi leadership.
my letters to editors anent this mater have not been published. No commenter on alternate media has to date comented on this issue. tnx
mary said on May 13th, 2009 at 11:47am #
Another open letter to the Pope from lajee.org
May 13, 2009
A Letter from the Residents of “Aida Refugee Camp to His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI
Your Holiness,
It is with great pride that we welcome you to our camp. We take great pride in the fact that our camp is one of the many symbols across Palestine for the love shared between the Muslims and Christians of Palestine: when we, our parents, and grandparents, themselves Muslims and Christians, were expelled from our villages in the 1948 Nakba, they came across a Christian Palestinian woman who helped them find shelter in the area that is now the camp. Her name was ‘Aida, a name that means ‘the one who returns,’ and it is after her that the camp is named, and in her honor that the church in the camp was built.
We wish, however, that we would be able to welcome you in our real homes; in Beit Nattif, al-Maliha, Ras Abu Ammar, ‘Allar, Ajjur or any one of the 27 villages from which were displaced in the Nakba. This camp is only our temporary home until we or our children return to our real homes. Even in this temporary home, the state of Israel has not allowed us the most fundamental rights. As you have seen, Israel’s wall has been built as a cage almost completely encircling our homes, the ever-watchful eyes of their soldiers’ sniper towers monitoring every movement, their bullets still lodged in the doors and walls of our houses, our school and the bodies of the injured and the dead. This very school that you have graced today, is one that has been attacked several times by Israel ‘s soldiers, two of its students, aged 9 and 11 years, were injured as they sought shelter in their classrooms.
Much can be done, however, to ease the daily pain of our community. Our students suffer from over-crowded classrooms, and even those who excel are unable to continue their studies at universities, water is always scarce and badly distributed to our homes, our children have no space to play in the overcrowded alleys of the camp.
It is for these reasons that we approach you, your Holiness, on the occasion of your historic visit, to request that you help us in making the lives of our children more bearable, more fruitful, more normal. We approach you asking your help in providing:
· More classrooms for our students. These students study in small classrooms into which over 40 students are squeezed, and our exhausted teachers work double shifts in order to teach everyone;
· Scholarships and financial support for those students who wish to continue their studies in Palestine and abroad, and who are unable to because of financial difficulties and travel restrictions;
· Rehabilitation for our water network in the camp which has decayed over the years resulting in a poor and inconsistent water supply;
· A playground for our children.
We thank you, your Holiness, for honoring us with your visit.
In the Spirit of Love and Justice Shared by all Religions,
The Residents of ‘Aida Refugee Camp, Palestine
May 13, 2009
Peter said on May 13th, 2009 at 1:48pm #
Bozh,
I am not a big fan of Der Spiegel either. In general, it is too anti-German for my taste. The rape of two million German women by the Red Army is a fact that can be found from many sources – not just German ones. Also, I don’t know any Roma historians and I would think their expertise would be on subjects other than Soviet behavior in Germany.
Regarding German historians, many have an anti-German attitude themselves.
Peter said on May 13th, 2009 at 2:04pm #
Regarding the rape or murder of Germans during and after WW II, the western media have done an excellent job of concealing these facts from the public. Many allied historians would prefer not to discuss mistreatment of Germans art all. Is that someone you can trust?
The historians from allied countries that write about the mistreatment of Germans are generally criticized in their own countries.
Suthiano said on May 13th, 2009 at 3:58pm #
Peter,
don’t forget the “saturation” bombing of Dresden after the war had ended, killing up to half a million Germans in what was the biggest massacre in history….
somehow that one seems to be left out of discussions of the 2nd world war too.
Danny Ray said on May 13th, 2009 at 6:12pm #
Suthiano, As I recall the Dresden raid happend on Feb 13th and 14th 1945 the Germans did not surrender untill May 9th, Dresden was a rail center and was bombed at the request of uncle Joe or Antonov.
Danny Ray said on May 13th, 2009 at 6:14pm #
P.S. best estimates of the raid by the Germans and the allies later put the butchers bill at 25000 to 40000 with 40 per cent of the city leveled.
Suthiano said on May 13th, 2009 at 6:23pm #
Danny Ray,
The official end of the second war is usually recognized as happening in 1945, not Spring of 1946. This is because the war was won in 1945 and Hitler died on 30 April 1945
The Dresden bombing had little to do with railways or the war. If you knew anything about the war you would know that. By Feb of 45 Dresden was a gigantic refugee camp.
The “best” estimates are at 250,000… Yes, they are the best for serving a certain purpose.
Suthiano said on May 13th, 2009 at 6:24pm #
sorry should read 25,000, not 250,000
Suthiano said on May 13th, 2009 at 6:25pm #
You’re right that it happened over 2 days (14 hours), as it was a nighttime raid.
The crimes were Churchill’s version of the A-bomb “look out Soviets, we’ve got a lot of FIRE power.
Danny Ray said on May 13th, 2009 at 6:48pm #
Suthiano, Sorry when I wrote may 9th I would have thought you would understand that I meant May , 45
Thousand plane raids were par for the course in January and Febuary 1945
Churchill may not have known the target data for the raid Hamburg was hit on the night and days of Feb 4th and 5th. They got 1500 planes and as many as 100k dead. He certainly knew of the amount of damage.
A popular story was that Air Vice admiral Arthur TR Harris (Bomber) did it all on his own due to the fact that His only son was shot down over Dresden in January while flying a pathfinder mission. Wheather or not he did it on his own, harris was the only major commander in the british forces who did not recieve a peerage at wars end.
Also in Febuary 45 the Wermach had 1250000 men in uniform and the russians were being held up on the vistula river. the Americans had just crossed the rine but were hung up in the Rhur Pocket. The rail lines crossed in Dresden and the original raid was to cut the line to increase the Germans line of communication.
Suthiano said on May 13th, 2009 at 7:04pm #
Danny Ray,
Did the Soviets enter Berlin before April 30 1945? Yes?
Then the war was largely won by that point. The remaining fighting forces were obviously brainwashed and/or acting our of complete desperation.
The allies had absolutely no reason to drop either the A-bombs, or to commit the fire bombing of Dresden, which left up to 500,000 Germans dead. Except to intimidate the Soviets.
Of course I’m not a polarizing force, so both Dresden and the Holocaust can exist together… the point is that both sides’ hands were extremely dirty and thus the 2nd world war cannot serve as a model for “just war” theory.
Danny Ray said on May 13th, 2009 at 7:53pm #
I believe the Russians forced the Seelow heights on the night of April 19 which was the opening salvo of the battle of Berlin. The surrender of berlin was on may 3 with Adm. Dornitz offering total surrender on may 7 with the signing on may 9.
As far as the remaining German forces being desperate or brainwashed, A desprate or brainwashed teenager with a panzerfaust or Schmisser will kill you just as dead and the most hardened old Lanser. we had to end the war we could not just sit around and hope the Germans will decide to give up.
“Of course I’m not a polarizing force, so both Dresden and the Holocaust can exist together… the point is that both sides’ hands were extremely dirty and thus the 2nd world war cannot serve as a model for “just war” theory.”
I never said it was just war, it was Just a war. unfortunatly you have to kill people and break things to win a war.
Peter said on May 13th, 2009 at 11:05pm #
The following is a three part Russian documentary on the bombing of Dresden. This documentary shows the Russians ‘did not’ request the bombing of the city. In fact, the Russian producers of this documentary ask ‘why was Dresden bombed’? Dresden was a city best known for producing porcelain (china, plates) and its own physical beauty.
Dresden was bombed in February 1945, three months before the end of the war. The German army was in retreat on all fronts and the allies had already entered German territory. Defeat was inevitable. Dresden was filled with one million refugees and the purpose of the bombing was to murder as many German civilians as possible .
Danny Ray said “I never said it was just war, it was Just a war. unfortunatly you have to kill people and break things to win a war”. If murdering civilians is acceptable then it has to be acceptable for both sides, you can’t say one side can murder civilians and the other side cannot. Of course, the biggest criticism of Germany’s conduct in the war is that it murdered defenseless Jews. Danny Ray, do you consider this acceptable too?
The British and Americans murdered defenseless Germans for no reason at all, except for hatred and possibly as was stated to frighten the Soviets by demonstrating Anglo-American firepower (that is mentioned in the documentary).
An estimated 135,000 people died in two days of bombing that burned the city to the ground. While examining “Operation Thunderclap”, American President Roosevelt declared the German people might have to be “castrated” to make them an extinct people. While Americans and British revel in discussing Hitler’s hate speech, they ignore the psychopathic tendencies of murderers such as Roosevelt and Churchill.
Three part documentary (in Russian with subtitles):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDauzYrBVJE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49EwgusnL4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsvnKjHMgwE&feature=related
Danny Ray said on May 15th, 2009 at 6:47pm #
Because of the diverse conditions of humans, it happens that some acts are virtuous to some people, as appropriate and suitable to them, while the same acts are immoral for others, as inappropriate to them.
In order for a war to be just, three things are necessary. First, the authority of the sovereign. Secondly, a just cause. Thirdly, a rightful intention.
Saint Thomas Aquinas
Do you belive that the Gremans acted in JUST CAUSE?
Danny Ray said on May 15th, 2009 at 6:49pm #
Sorry ‘Germans”

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