Israel Needs Turkey

Hasan Uncular: Dear Gilad, How do you evaluate the Israeli carnage in Gaza?

Gilad Atzmon: Dear Hasan, I don’t really think that it is a matter of evaluation. We are all aware of the level of destruction brought upon innocent civilians by the Jewish state. Gaza looks as if it was nuked. Yet, as we know, the devastation is not the outcome of a single atomic bomb. It was actually a merciless and lengthy campaign conducted by a national and popular army that employed a chain of heavy bombardment using conventional and unconventional shells. Gaza’s carnage is the outcome of a sinister, continuous, intense air raid against civilians in the most populated spot on this planet. Hence, rather than evaluating the carnage itself, I am very interested in the evaluation of the people who are capable of bringing such destruction about. In other words, I am interested in the Israeli and the Jewish collective identity. I wonder how is it possible that the Israelis, the people who were ‘raised from the ashes’, have matured collectively into the embodiment of modern evil. How is it that Diaspora Jews happen to institutionally support Israel and its crimes against humanity?

HU: Why does Israel always break the international laws and does not obey the agreements?

GA: I assume that the Israeli is imbued with feelings of superiority that have something to do with the secular interpretation of the notion of Jewish Chosenness. At the end of the day, Israel is the Jewish state. Though Israel is largely a secular society, it manages to maintain the Judaic heritage of racial supremacy. It is actually the secular nationalist interpretation of Judaic tradition that had evolved into a collective murderous inclination. It is important to note that while within the Judaic context, chosenness is interpreted as a moral burden in which Jews are demanded to stand as an exemplification of ethical behaviour, in the Jewish state, chosenness is interpreted as an entitlement to dominate and kill. Since the Israelis regard themselves as the chosen people, they clearly feel free of any ethical or moral concerns. Moreover, they are not concerned at all with other peoples’ or nations’ judgment or thought. This arrogant philosophy was defined by Israeli PM David Ben Gurion in the 1950’s when he said, “it doesn’t matter what the Goyim (Gentiles) say, the only thing that matters is what the Jews do.”

HU: What is the importance of PM Erdogan’s reaction in Davos?

GA: For me it is clear that PM Erdogan was rather courageous in confronting the Israeli lie on an international stage. Moreover, he really hit the nail on the head by exposing the ultimate symbol of this very lie. I am referring here to war criminal President Shimon Peres, who in spite of his devastating past (Kefar Kana, Nuclear reactor Dimona etc.) has managed to grab a Nobel Prize for peace. Considering his contribution to the Dimona WMD project, a Nobel Prize in nuclear physics would be more appropriate.

HU: How does / can the Jewish lobby work against PM Erdogan and the Jews with conscience?

GA: This is a very good question, I am not an expert on Jewish lobbying tactics. However I am fully aware of their influence. As long as British Labour finance is run by rabid Zionists such as Lord cash Machine Levy and as long as White House chief of staff is a rabid Zionist, we should expect Zionist interests to shape our reality and this means a lot of conflicts, carnage and blood of innocent civilians.

However, we have to bear in mind that the tide is turning. What we see and hear in Gaza brings about a mass indignation against Israel and its lobbies around the world.

It is hard for me to predict what the measures taken by Jewish lobbies against PM Erdogan will be. He can probably expect himself to be presented as their new anti-Semite protagonist. As we know it doesn’t take a lot to become one. While in the old days, anti-Semites were those who didn’t like Jews, nowadays, anti-Semites are those the Jews Hate.

Nevertheless, we must bear in mind that Turkey’s friendship is very important for Israel. Turkey had been Israel’s only friend in the region. Lately, it had been a negotiator with Syria. In short, Israel needs Turkey.

HU: How can the Israeli-Turkish relations be effected after the Erdogan-Peres clash in Davos?

GA: I really prefer not to answer this question, I am not exactly an expert on the subject…

HU: What kind of days are waiting for Israel and Turkey in the global political arena?

GA: Again, international affairs isn’t exactly a topic I specialise in.

HU: Do you have a final message for the world and the Turkish people?

GA: I do not like to come with final messages for three reasons:

1. I do not like final statements, I insist upon reserving the option of regretting and want to be able to revise my views on every possible topic.

2. I believe that people who come with ‘final messages’ must be very important and clever. I am more of an artist. I look into myself, and I share what I see with my listeners and readers.

3. Unlike politicians who know what is right and wrong for other people, I hardly know what is right for myself.

However, my politics, so to say, are very simple. I am looking for an ethical voice. It means that in any given circumstance, I would try to find out myself what is right and what is wrong. I do not believe in dogmatism. I insist that the ethical search is a dynamic process of shaping and reshaping.

A week ago or so, a friend of mine, the legendary musician Robert Wyatt, helped me put it into words in the most eloquent and simple way. “My politics,” he said, “is very simple, I am just an anti-racist”. This is really what it is all about, being an ‘anti-racist.’

I am totally against any form of racist politics and this is why I despise any form of Jewish politics left, right and centre. I am tired of all these ‘Jew only’ settings. Whether it is the ‘Jews only state’ or ‘Jews for peace.’ I am against it because; it is there to promote Jewish tribal interests rather than humanity and brotherhood. The Jewish political experience is somehow always racially orientated and chauvinist to the bone.

Though I believe that people are entitled to fight for their rights e.g., the Palestinian national struggle, I also believe that people should know how to reinstate peace and harmony. As far as Israel and Jewish politics is concerned, this is exactly what we lack. All we see is vengeance and anger that lead to more and more violence. It is rather apparent that Israelis are not familiar with the notion of mercy and compassion. Jesus’ spiritually harmonious suggestion known as ‘turning the other cheek’ sounds to the Israeli as an amusing ludicrous concept. Apparently, for them, ‘shock and awe’, sounds far more appealing. They democratically vote for carnage, destruction and genocide. At the end of the day, they are entitled to vote. They are the ‘only democracy in the Middle East,’ at least this is what they claim to be.

M. Hasan Uncular is the Deputy-editor-in-chief of Timeturk. Read other articles by M. Hasan, or visit M. Hasan's website.

77 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. Tennessee-Socialist said on February 8th, 2009 at 9:07am #

    I don’t really know what else to say about the failed-state of Israel. And the bad thing is that i don’t really see a light at the end of the tunnel in the Middle East, because of the fact that most political parties with provability of seizing power, are capitalist, right wing parties. Israel’s left is real weak, so i don’t see a change in Israel in the short time.


  2. Tennessee-Socialist said on February 8th, 2009 at 9:11am #

    We are doomed as a human species !!

  3. bozh said on February 8th, 2009 at 10:47am #

    if my assumption is correct that about 90% of socalled jews are ashk’m voelken (germanic, slavic, asian) then i can conclude that their wish will prevail.
    and obviously ashk’m want at least all of palestine but without palestinians.
    militarilly, it can be easily and quickly obtained. diplomatically also, when i talk about diplo part to this i am talking solely about diplo that matters the most; that of the christian world.

    so what is stopping israel and its largely christian friends from utter expulsion/slaughter?
    well, one factor may be that the evil soyuz fears world condemnation.
    but is it main or sole factor? no! it seems not. it is not even a main factor.

    i think it is the oil. lotsof land need arab oil. and no one dares think about possible consequences emanating from ouster of pals.

  4. Gideon said on February 8th, 2009 at 11:24am #

    Hamas murders any Dissident Voice in Gaza

    Gilad who?
    Who is this guy?
    Oh, let me see: a musician and a writer ..
    Wow!, finally an interview with a real authority and knowledge about the subject matter. He admits repeatedly ” I am not exactly an expert on the subject… ”

    It looks like his only credentials are of being an Israeli.

    Thanks God there is one Democracy in the region. Any Joe in Israel can exercise his freedom of speech.

    Who would be an equivalent of Gilad Atzmon in Gaza, that can express himself in a similar way against Hamas?

    I know, I know – local cemeteries are full of Gaza intellectuals who had a Dissident Voice and have been executed by Hamas!

    Reminds me a story: Democracy and Freedom of Speech
    Israeli and Palestinian meet for a coffee.
    Israeli: We have a democracy, I can stand in the middle of Jerusalem and criticize Israeli government as much as I want.
    Palestinian: We also have a democracy, I can stand in the middle of Gaza and criticize Israeli government as much as I want.

    Regarding the Title: Israel and Turkey need each other.
    Turkey has an important role to play in the Middle East , has history, credibility and opportunity.
    Turkey, Israel, Palestinians and Arab world has many common interests and can establish foreign relationships to advance these common interests and create a better future for the Middle East and their own peoples.

    How Turkey will use this opportunity is up to the developing political climate and its leadership.

    Turkey, please use these powers wisely.

  5. Tennessee-Socialist said on February 8th, 2009 at 1:08pm #

    Gideon: Israel-state and most Israelis are evil and indoctrinated by a fascist ideology. What you say about Israel being democratic is B.S.. Go to Israel and protest against Israel-wars and watch how you are bulldozed like Rachel Corrie was bulldozed. Israel is a fascist state and 75% of Israeli citizens support that fascist system. Israel is the only fascist system in the region, not the only “democracy” in the region like many right-winger republican party voters say.


  6. RH2 said on February 8th, 2009 at 1:12pm #

    Turkey strives for joining the European Union and will thus have to dance to Europeans’ tune, defending Israel and describing Palestinian resistance as terrorism. The protest of Turkish PM, Erdogan, at the so called World Economic Forum in Davos against the recent massacre in Ghaza will not negatively influence diplomatic and military cooperation between Turkey and Israel.

    It seems to be too late to mend the historical failure. Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution 181, the Palestinians could have preserved some of their dignity. There should be no doubt that the Palestinians are partially victims of corrupt and incapable Arabic Regimes with their notorious empty and inane heroism. But Israel with its successful Holocaust sale and racist cult as a “Jewish state” is finishing the Palestinians off. Being a victim of Arabic corruption and historical dull bluffing should not legitimize oppressing and cleansing the Palestinians by the “civilized” world.

    The “civilized” imperial world, especially the Zionist Department at the White House, is not ready to give up its doctrine of dominance. I say Zionist Department to indicate that Zionism, as I elsewhere on DV said, is not the only, but a major variable of Imperialism in a well designed chain of dependance. Who would and could break this chain? No one.! Those who know about the mechanisms of Imperialism should not fool themselves.

  7. bozh said on February 8th, 2009 at 1:41pm #

    has anyone accepted own theft of land? rejecting socalled partition of palestine or any land (to make room for alien people) is a noble deed.
    arabs were justified in not accepting a diktat by euro’n empires.
    League of Nations as well as UN until ’48 was a group of conquistadors/colonial powers excluding many peoples from participating in the mafioso org.
    in fact, more than half world pop was excluded from participating in LN. thnx

  8. Gideon said on February 8th, 2009 at 2:31pm #

    Palestinian economic development – recipe for Peace.
    Prosperity and focus on the art of the possible.

    It’s not too late to create a new reality.
    It should not be about the Land or Justice.
    It should be all be about the FUTURE of the peoples!
    Politics is the art of the possible.

    Palestinians deserve a leadership with the courage to accept reality and have a new start.

    Unfortunately history teaches us that such new leadership will have to consolidate power and take care of local groups that will not play ball and obtain support from the Arab League.

    Does it mean that Palestinians need their own Civil war before they are ready? I hope not, but at the end it’s their internal business.
    One thing for sure, Israel will not allow this internal power struggle to use Israeli citizens as a punch bag.

    Israelis, the people, are standing by with a stretched hand!

    Whenever you ready Pals!

    Let’s have a DEAL!
    (this one should have milestones, verification mechanism, enforcement and should be worth more than the paper it’s written on.)

  9. RH2 said on February 8th, 2009 at 2:31pm #


    First, it is not a theft of land, but a robbery of land. Second, the Arabs were and are too corrupt to defend a noble goal. Therefore the Palestinians are suffering and will be suffering for a long long time.

  10. RH2 said on February 8th, 2009 at 2:38pm #


    The future will show us how honest the Israeli “stretched hand” is.

    Thank you

  11. Hue Longer said on February 8th, 2009 at 3:20pm #


    You remind me of that castle lord in the Holy Grail who addressed the crowd of wounded angry wedding guests who had just witnessed Sir Lancelot kill half of them. “Please! Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let’s not
    bicker and argue about who killed who “.

  12. bozh said on February 8th, 2009 at 4:52pm #

    i often say regarding imperialism and/or colonialism as “theft of land with or by murder”
    but “robbing a people of their land” is OK with me.

    i strongly reject your assertion that “arabs were and are too corrupt to defend a noble goal”.
    there is or maybe as much corruption in pakistan, india, china, US, egypt, croatia, ukraine, inter alia as there was/is in arab lands.
    in add’n right to abide in one’s habitat and to return to it cannot hinge on any corruption of leaders or their inabilty or unwillingness to do the right think.
    you have pulled an ancient ruse: blame victims and not the perps. in this case perps are ashk’m voelken.
    you’re not a selfhating antiarab? or are you? the statement you have made about arabs not being good enough to do a noble thing is a locus classicus for racist attitude. thnx

  13. greybeard616 said on February 8th, 2009 at 5:00pm #

    Self-affirming Lie: “Hamas murders any Dissident Voice in Gaza”. In fact, Hamas only seized power in Gaza when Israel and the U.S. provided Dahlen and Fatah with weapons to seize Gaza from the Unity government. But, Gideon must need to believe in “demons”. Curiously enough, so do Americans (under Zionist influence), which is why “we” still delight to remember that last war of Good against Evil personified–the Nazis. Tragically the philosophy of national socialism and Jabotinskian Zionism are remarkably similar, and justify racist oppression of the “other”–in one case the Jews, and in the other case the Palestinians.
    Atzmon asks an important question, one pertinent to Americans as well–what is the character of a civilizaation and culture which performs such things, or supports them? Is our stench beginning to rise from the corpse of our humanity?

  14. Barry said on February 8th, 2009 at 5:05pm #

    I don’t quite believe Erdogan. While he may be angry to some degree at the Israeli slaughter of innocents, he is also quite aware of how his eruption plays among Turks – that is, quite favorably. In the final (or not so final) analysis, Turkey and Israel have many an agreement between them regarding water transfers, arms agreements and joint ,military exercises, and trans-shipments of oil to Israel thru Turkey. His words will have to be backed-up by deeds for it to count.
    As far as there being freedom of speech in Israel – that applies to Jews only. Palestinian members of Knesset have been censured for their views. And as we know, Palestinian-Israeli political parties were recently barred from upcoming elections. And one Israeli, the nazi Avigdor Lieberman is running on the platform of ethnic cleansing of Israeli Palestinian citizens. How’s that for democracy and freedom?

  15. sk said on February 8th, 2009 at 5:13pm #

    Those wasting time on trolls might want to consider Gabriel Ash’s healthful advice which is especially pertinent to Zionists:

    Trolls need a special low-content diet. Please, please, those of you who feed the trolls–you know who you are–don’t!

    btw, modern Turkey has been ruled either directly or indirectly by military strong-men since the Twenties whose policies did not reflect feelings of ordinary people. Regarding Turkey’s relations with Israel, a BBC poll, conducted in March 2007, found that only 2% of Turks thought Israel had a ‘mainly positive influence’ in the world, the lowest proportion of any of the 27 countries surveyed, while 76% said Israel’s influence was ‘mainly negative’.

  16. Gideon said on February 8th, 2009 at 5:37pm #

    Hamas execution of Fatah members on YouTube
    Must see TV, be aware rate R for violence


    Your thoughts about the clip?

    What impact do you think distribution of this clip made on Gaza population?

    Could you share with us the latest appearances of Dissidents in Gaza and any of their public statements?

    These are not “Demons”.
    These are terrorists wearing masks that shoot from close range THEIR OWN PEOPLE laying face down by a wall with their hands and feet tied and a bag over their head from AK47.
    Listen to the wailing voices. It sounds like they have brought the families of the executed to be present at the execution.

  17. Bakri said on February 8th, 2009 at 10:35pm #

    Gideon, I’m puzzled by your logic that having “democracy ” entitle you, to the murdering and the maiming of innocent women and children, and the theft of there land.
    but let us take you seriously for a second here, and talk about the future, which I believe that is the best thing for you to be concern about , more so than some body like me, who was kicked out of his and his ancestors land, here is whay, the Zionist were able to convince the Jews and the great power of the world that you have a justices on your side, through very effective media you won that war, but your real battle is in your neighborhood, and in your neighborhood they are not fooled by the media lies and deception, they see your crimes and your atrocities.
    think about the future of your children after the life supply from the west stops, and the end of the Arab dictators (who are protecting Israel and protected by the West), what would happen then ? this should be the most important question for you to ask yourself, the loss of your safe haven, the Muslim world , wake up from the Zionist deception which at the end will hurt your people more than any body else, not that I’m losing sleep over it, but you should, as for me, I see my return or children return coming sooner or later, and I teach my children when that day comes, not to behave like you did when you had power, but like their ancestors ( Elkhatab or Salahu Deen) for losing the land is much easier than losing their Islamic identity.

  18. dino said on February 9th, 2009 at 1:00am #

    Even the Jews have not the right to speak in the so called jewish-democracy in Israel.No one can find Chomsky or Finkelstein’s books,but in change are plaine of Sharansky or Dershowitz,Kaplans,or Caroline Glick.But more than that try to write to Haaretz at talk back discussions that you propose that the state of Israel will stop the incitment against Iran and will begin a campaign for a ME without nuclear arms.That will not be chosen by the censor to appear.In reality ,how Nataniahu said “regarding Iran here is a complete consensus”.A complete consensus is also on Gaza war,on Lebanon war,on to take out Arabs MK and so on.We have a democracy of a complete consensus.Of course Gideon Levy and Amira Hass are two different calls.But I didn’t hear them speaking about the huge propaganda against Iran and in favor to bomb it.In Haaretz of today is a little change:Zvi Barel asks what have to be done ,knowing that Iran is not Switzerland -and thinking that Israel is exactly so-to make the Iran-USA discussion to impede a war.And why is desirable to impede a war?because Iran is stronger than Hizzbullah or Hamas.Only for that.However a ME disarmed of wmd is not on the table.

  19. Hue Longer said on February 9th, 2009 at 1:08am #

    Israel should put a fence around Iran, bomb their infrastructure, assassinate their leaders (and any “collateral” standing around), then give them food aid and point out how cruel their leaders are for not distributing it properly. I guess they leave those bigger jobs of humanitarianism to the US and concentrate on giving tough love to people with sling shots?

  20. Shabnam said on February 9th, 2009 at 7:36am #

    Why does Israel always break the international laws and does not stand by the agreements?
    Israel has a plan to erect “greater Israel” where goes from Mauritania to Afghanistan thus; Israel has to steal Palestine as the starting point and expand beyond Palestine later. Zionism can survive through expansionism where is nourished by racism and terrorism. About 95 percent of Israelis supported the Gaza holocaust and other ethnic cleansing in Palestine. This support is not limited to those Zionists inside the occupied land of Palestine and is extended to the Zionist communities ALL OVER THE WORLD, closet or open. They protect the interest of their tribe. Beside, since the Jews from early ages are sent to ‘Hebrew’ school, tend to think alike where is not seen among Christians or Muslims. The ‘victimization’ card and the ‘closeness’ are tools to keep them in line to support the project of Zionism either directly or indirectly.
    On the other hand, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s public attack on Israeli President Shimon Peres at World Economic Forum met in the Swiss resort of Davos has caught the imagination of the Islamic world and cuts across the Shi’ite-Sunni divide.
    Erdogan told Peres: “When it comes to killing, you know well how to kill.” Peres answered him back and finally Erdogan used the opportunity and left the forum. People think that Israel-Turkey relationship is at breaking point which is not true. Five minutes after the discussion ended, President Peres called Prime Minister Erdogan to apologize for any misunderstanding. Erdogan later told reporters that he was not upset with Peres; rather he was upset with Ignatius for failing to moderate the discussion impartially, by giving Peres 25 minutes to speak while earlier only giving Erdogan 12 minutes to speak and then later just a minute to respond to Peres. Erdogan returned to Istanbul a day later to a hero’s welcome at the airport.

    Thus, Erdogan had full control over his behavior and knew what he was doing. Erdogan acted according to Turkey’s interest in the region and the position of his party in the coming election using a popular cause and turned it into an opportunity for Turkey. Erdogan’s ambitious regional policy in the Middle East, therefore, should not be construed as sidestepping an active pursuit of European Union membership, normal relationship with Israel or good relations with Washington.

    Many Iranian officials, in my opinion foolishly, admired his action and one of them, Makarem Shirazi, irresponsibly demanding a “noble peace price” to be given to Erdugan, not having the knowledge how a candidate is chosen for a ‘Noble’ peace price. This happens at the time that a week before the start of Gaza holocaust Israeli media reported that the Turkish Air Force had signed a US$141 million deal with Israeli military companies Elbit Systems Ltd. and Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) for air and space imagery intelligence systems.

    The Prime Minister Erdogan’s public opposition to Israel’s war crimes against the Gaza Strip, did not have anything to support such a gesture except CHEAP talk and his word was not supported by an action like Chaves who called his ambassador back from Israel. Turkey and Israel since 1991 have signed a military agreement where has been widely condemned by the Islamic countries. What happened that Turkey at this time has suddenly chosen to show its opposition against Palestinian holocaust where Iran has shown for the past 30 years despite the fact that all Arab countries including Palestinian authority, Arafat, except Syria for her own political reason, supported Saddam invasion of Iran morally and financially by working closely with the United States who supported Saddam and gave him all kind of weapon and satellite information on the Iranian military movement to be bombed and killed. Shame on them.
    Iran for the past 30 years has supported Palestinian cause and has criticized the Arab’s position, especially ‘the Arab moderate states’ Saudis, Jordan and Egypt where these puppets have chosen the side of the common enemy, Israel, in 2006, Lebanon destruction, and in Gaza massacre of toddlers, to protect their positions against the Arab population to protect their interests to stay in power.

    Turkey has an imperialistic past. The only empire that contended with Ottoman Turkey over power in the region was Safavids Iran. Ottoman Empire had an eye on Persia and in fact in the Chaldaran war in 1514 against Persia (Iran) gained control over part of the Iranian territory of Kurdistan. Due to Ottoman aggression towards Iran, the Savids change the Sunni Iran into Shiites. Ottoman was Sunnis. Turkey is Sunnis.
    Now, Edugan wants a piece of action, popularity among Arab population, for Turkey and his party, The justice and development (JDP) wich goes well with the population to boost its regional power status using Turkey’s stand in the Arab world and supposedly using turkey’s ‘skill’ in solving Israel – Palestine ‘problem’ to collect benefits for Turkey, to help the turkey’s economic stagnation, pretending that is ignorant to position of Zionism on Palestine that zionism does not want peace rather wants to steal all of the historical Palestine whee so far has stolen about 85% of that.
    If Turkey is serious then Turkey should isolate Israel not to help the zionist’s position in the region by cooperation in many fields including military. Thus, Israel and Turkey have mutual benefits and Turkey’s close relationship with Israel and Zionism is not going to be affected. What is going to be affected is the oppressed Arab population’s views – including Palestinian- on Turkey to TRUST Erdugan not knowing that Turkey is following her OWN INTEREST NOT PALESTINIAN’s INTEREST. Israel in fact wants Turkey to steal some of Iran’s popularity among Arab population, same with the Arab puppet States. The Arab trio are aligning with US and Israel against Iran while the Arab population are widely with Iran against the corrupt ‘leaders’ and Israel.
    Therefore, we urge Erdogan to show that he is truly against genocide in occupied land, not targeting Iran’s popularity amongst Arabs to make Turkey a ‘good partner’ in the ‘peace process’ to improve her regional standing towards ‘the power of the region’ against Iran.

  21. Shabnam said on February 9th, 2009 at 7:40am #

    “choseness” is the correct word not ‘closeness’ . sorry

  22. Tennessee-Socialist said on February 9th, 2009 at 8:47am #

    gideon: by the way Israelis are so evil, that they are not content with stealing Palestine lands, they also want to control and own the USA, just look at how USA is owned by the zionist power configuration and AIPAC


  23. bozh said on February 9th, 2009 at 9:26am #

    OK, so the ‘jews’ are self chosen. and according to most of these selfchosen people, some chosen ‘jews’ are self-hating chosen ‘jews’.
    how silly can people get! thnx

  24. RH2 said on February 9th, 2009 at 10:16am #


    You reject my assertion that the Arabs are too corrupt to defend a noble goal.The Arabs wanted to throw the technically developed colonizing European Jews into the sea, though they were not able to drive a car, much less hold a bicycle. Their empty camel heroism blinded them to figure out new imperial realities. Therefore the Palestinians, kind of Arabs, are suffering today, in fact more than in 1948. Yes, it is colonialism. Basically all borders of Arab countries were demarcated by colonialists. That is the way it is. Yet you have to make deals to survive. The Arabs have failed to make a deal in Palestine.and for Palestine. Now the Palestinians are at the mercy of modern Imperialism. In the meantime the Arabs have sold or slaughtered most of their camels and can drive cars burning a lot of fuel and polluting the air for the rest of their camels. Moreover they look after US bases in their countries which also pollute their soil and the air for their camels. In the middle of their modern progress they are still as corrupt as before, even worse. Who would make a just deal for Palestinians? Obama? Why should a submissive servant of Imperialism do that?

  25. Barry said on February 9th, 2009 at 11:17am #

    RH@ – The ‘Arabs’ have offered Israel full recognition of all 22 Arab states, full and normal relations – in return for a full Israeli withdrawal from what remains of Palestine – that is, end the occupation and siege of Gaza and the West Bank, East Jerusalem as Palestine’s capital and a just settlement of the refugees problem. Israel ignored it. This 2002 offer is still on the table. The deal will not be on the table forever. As you say, “That is the way it is. Yet you have to make deals to survive.” It’s time Israel made the deal.

  26. bozh said on February 9th, 2009 at 11:39am #

    so, as barry says, is israel making deals? yes, of course, but while torturing and imprisoning even kidnapped children; plowing under orchards/razing houses/raiding/stealing land daily. what a deal!

    furthermore, is US or nato or nato/US making deals with syria, palestine, iraq, afgh’n, russia, iran or with any land that does not obey it/them?
    i am the last person to approbate the structure of governance in arab lands and US, UK, canada and many other lands.

    did one notice that only people who CAN steal/embezzle are corrupt. a peasant steals least and is least corrupt because s/he has no opportunity to steal/lie/deceive.

    but the rulers, ?all rulers are (too?) corrupt, power mad, demented, psychotic, murderous, etc. thnx

  27. Gideon said on February 9th, 2009 at 1:04pm #

    Muslim politicians are the envy of the free world.
    Israel bashing is all they need to boost popularity.

    Nobody is stealing land.
    Where land deficiency ranks on the Arab world peoples wish list?

    If the Arab peoples could just have some more land, they would be doing so much better. All they need is the 9,000 square miles of Israel and happiness, prosperity, peace will descend on all of them.

    How long will you be in denial and self deception?

    Palestinian state should be established sometime in the near future. So you should have a chance to fulfill your wish. Will your children want to come there? That would depend on what they are looking for and what road Palestinians will take. Will it be modeled on Iran or US?
    How long did the wet dream last for the return of Salahu Deen?

  28. Tennessee-Socialist said on February 9th, 2009 at 3:17pm #

    Gideon: But as bad as disorderly as muslims and muslim-states at least they don’t control the US media, the US economy and the US congress, like the Israelis do thru the Zionist Power Configuration (ZPC).


  29. giorgio said on February 9th, 2009 at 4:22pm #

    Within a hour’s drive from where I live there is a quaint rural village where I on occasions go for strolls. In one of these walks I came across a nondescript alley with a name which caught my eye. It was named ‘Rua dos Bravos’ which literally means ‘Street of the Brave’, then a revealing caption under its name:

    STREET of the BRAVE

    ‘Don’t do Evil to Anyone
    Even if you’re in the Right
    And return Evil with Goodness
    For you will do a Good Deed!’

    Quite a few years ago, a friend and I, after a hectic night’s out partying, decided just before daybreak to go for breakfast at the only place we knew was open all night.
    As we approached the entrance we noticed three guys standing in the middle of the deserted street having a heated argument. As we looked back at this commotion suddenly there was a punch up and one of the guys fell on the tarmac. The other two seized the opportunity and started kicking the fallen guy viciously and brutally.
    He in self-defense just crouched in a fetal position with arms and hands around the head, and helplessly endured the relentless random pounding where it hurts most, his head, belly, groin and, more specifically and directly, his ‘colliones’…and they kicked, and kicked, and kicked…

    Today, when I read reports or see on TV, the likes of such ‘brave’ nations, Israel and America, pounding with religious fervour and gusto defenseless ragtag nations to smithereens, this cowardly pre-dawn incident often comes to my mind.

  30. giorgio said on February 9th, 2009 at 5:34pm #


    You obviously are not ‘ in denial and suffering from self deception’. That I clearly see. My guess is that you are either in a prolonged black-out OR comatose.
    You remind me of the news years ago of the Japanese WWII soldier who was found hiding and living in the jungle for fear of being captured and did not even know that WWII had already ended.

    The questions to be asked are not the likes of academic queries such as ‘Where land deficiency ranks on the Arab world peoples wish list?’ but rather, the bare facts as a result of this Gaza war, the so called ‘Operation Cast Lead’,

    1) How many Israelis/Palestinians have been killed?
    Ans: 17 Israelis, 1300+ Palestinians.
    2) How many Israeli/Palestinian houses, neighborhoods and villages
    have been destroyed?
    Ans: None in Israel, virtually the whole of Gaza is devastated and destroyed..

    3) Now, please, come out of your Coma, if only for a brief moment, and answer me, honestly,

    Who is TERRORIZING who?

  31. Gideon said on February 9th, 2009 at 7:56pm #

    If Hamas puts down their arms, there will be no war. If Israel does, there will be no Israel.

    Now that result probably will not upset any of the contributors here …

    As you like stories, I will indulge you with one.
    Imagine you are living in a really bad neighborhood. Every evening you go home you are not sure if you we get home alive. You can’t concentrate at work because of that fear. You are not sure if your wife will not be raped on her way back home. You are not sure if your children will not be kidnapped when they return back from school.
    You decide to buy a gun for self protection. Then one day on the way home you are attacked. You shoot and kill the guy. Next day again you are attacked, you shoot that guy too. Within a week there are 5 dead gang members dead and there is a rumor that there is a serial killer terrorizing the neighborhood. Of course you can move out of the neighborhood, but if you decided to stay you need to defend yourself.

    So tell me Giorgio
    Who is TERRORIZING who?

  32. Bakri said on February 9th, 2009 at 10:01pm #

    again you come up with this logic, which no one would use except a Zionist, the Arabs have so much land, so you can grab 9,000 square miles !!!!!!
    “Nobody is stealing land” yes it was there for grab, remember the early lie (land without people for people with out land) it didn’t take long to face that lie , but then you thought, if you can hold on it until the first generation (the first victims of your bloody establishment) is gone, then it will be over, and the longer you hold on it the easier it will get, now you found out that, the new generation is even more stubborn about their rights than their fathers and grandfathers.
    It’s your arrogance that comfort me, it’s a sign of your end, and for somebody like you, we will not need another Salahu Deen, just close to him.
    and that you called wit dream of ours, is much better than accepting your ugly realty, the realty that say it’s heroic and democratic to bomb women and children after having them under siege for years, you haven’t seen Muslim leaders yet.
    finally allow me to end with your question
    How long will you be in denial and self deception?

  33. Bakri said on February 9th, 2009 at 10:18pm #

    That neighborhood welcomed you as victims who needed a safe place to live in peace, until you brought death and distraction, Stern & Irgun terrorist organizations

  34. Gideon said on February 9th, 2009 at 11:03pm #

    Arabs welcomed Jews to the neighborhood? Who are you kidding?
    Arabs fought Jewish immigration to Palestine from day one.
    Yes they sold the land to the Jews and benefited from the Zionist economic development.
    Yes, 9,000 square miles is a drop in a bucket for the Arab League.
    It’s like a box of matches laying on a football field.
    No, there was no need to grab it, Arabs sold it to Jews.

    What percentage of state of Israel under UN 1947 resolution 181 was owned by Jews?

    Your bitterness will not be useful in the next round of Palestinian negotiations. But you are not there to participate anyway …

  35. bozh said on February 10th, 2009 at 8:57am #

    let’s not fall for the ancient ruse by criminals such as gideon. what they continuoulsy do is to lead you away from main factors by bringing out peripheral or insignificcant issues or even facts and not to mention a heap of lies, accusations, racist utterances, etc.

    so my advice to people is to juxtapose own facts without dwelling on what a criminal is saying.
    a criminal will defend his/her crimes till death. and s/he can do it only by casuistry, speciousness, mass of lies, racism, etc. thnx

  36. Barry said on February 10th, 2009 at 11:51am #

    Gideon – Zionist Jewry is the first and only group in all the centuries of Palestine who came to displace the native inhabitants. Zionist policies of ‘Purity of Land’ and ‘Purity of Labor’ were racial notions with the express purpose of evicting non-Jews from all productive sectors. Zionists understood that to attach themselves to the land, to attach these Eastern European city dwellers to the land, the natives had to be removed. Very quickly, Jews who employed Palestinians were punished by the Zionist Authority. Effectively speaking, Palestinians were alienated from the land, a slow-motion ethnic cleansing right from the start – under the watchful eye of the Brits. To the extent that some Palestinians prospered by working for the European colonizers, that extent could not overcome the loss of land, property and country – a country that was rightfully theirs. Yes, land was sold by absentee landowners to Jews who then removed the tenant farmers who had been on that land for generations. Land had always been bought and sold – only now it was bought and cleansed. All part of the ethnic cleansing, and the Jews were well on their way to inspiring deep resentment among the native natural population.

    Palestine was not inhabited by the Arab League. It has been inhabited since time immemorial by Palestinians. It is their land the Zionists confiscated, not the Arab League’s.

    There was no Israel in 1947, that came in 1948. But the creation of an Israeli identity had to be created out of whole cloth – a process taking years. To prevent Jews, especially the growing number of Arab Jews from identifying as something other than this new identity (i.e. Palestinians), Jews had to be inculcated with the racial notions of early 20th century Central and Eastern Europe.

    Regarding ownership of land, the Zionists purchased about 7% of Palestine by the time of UN 181. At most, this is what the Zionists were entitled to, if they are forgiven for the fact that they arrived from Europe without asking the permission of the actual people living on the land.

    It should be understood that the Zionists did not come in peace – they were not invited, in fact not even invited by Jews already living there. The Zionists expanded willfully at Palestinian expense, all the while protected by British guns. Right up to the day the Zionists declared their ‘independence’ from the Brits – they were protected by British guns. Brits killed Arabs long enough for the Zionists to get guns and kill Arabs. Funny how that works when you live under serial subjugation.

  37. Gideon said on February 10th, 2009 at 11:58am #

    bozh – “criminal, lies, accusation, racist, utterance, juxtapose, criminal, crime, death, casuistry, speciousness, mass of lies, racism”

    What a vocabulary you bring with you to Dissident Voice!
    And then there is etc. You mean you have more ?

    It sounds like you became an accomplished crime and hate wordsmith!
    That’s usually the case when one does not have anything to contribute to a debate.

  38. bozh said on February 10th, 2009 at 12:54pm #

    etc., in my use, means that more can be said. elsewhere i pointed out that ‘jews’ (or the 3 ‘jewish’ voelken =folks) have learned little from known historical and other facts.

    the ‘jews’ forever decry holocaust but not the first or second but only the third and the latest.
    so how many shoahs do yous want to go thru to see the facts of the greatest import; the one about surviving and growing in numbers.

    both the hebrew and modern judaism have failed hebrews/judeans
    and the euros with the hebrew cult.
    now it is israelis’ turn to suffer the fourth and probably the last shoah.
    even if sraelis avoid evanescence, taking needless chance as ‘jews’ have been doing for a century, makes no sense.
    so, why not err in favor of survival? thnx

  39. bozh said on February 10th, 2009 at 1:11pm #

    yes barry,
    even historians friendly to israel have said that UK fought pals in ’45-49.
    and, of course, not to mention allowing illegal immigration while at the same banned all ‘jewish’ immigration into UK.
    after the war US had allowed 13,000 jews to come to US each year. someof the ‘jews’ went to s. america and australia.

    for decades after ‘jews’ established a state of their own, more people left it than entered it. i understand this is still going on.
    obviously people find life to difficult in israel or know they live on stolen lands and expect the worst. thnx

  40. Gideon said on February 10th, 2009 at 1:44pm #

    Israel land 1947 partition: Negev desert (83%), Owned by Jews (12%) which was 20% of Palestine cultivable land.

    Tahnks. You did some research and came up with a number.

    Total land area of Mandatory Palestine – 26.3 million metric dunam, of which 8,252,900 dunam or 33% were cultivable.

    Well over half of Palestine was state land, the Negev is 12.5 million dunam (Negev is a desert, lands that are almost impossible to cultivate) and state lands in other parts of the country as well as Waqf endowed lands etc.

    The Jews bought and owned in June 1947 over 1.8 million dunams which were about 7% of the total area of Palestine, a number everybody seems to agree about which represented 20% of land that could be CULTIVATED.

    Apart from that there were lands in the hand of Christian Churches and missions, private effendis from the Middle East, and almost a million dunam (4%) were ex-private lands of the Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II.

    The UN partition plan allocated 11.4 m. dunam to the Arab State and 14.92 m. dunam to the Jewish state.

    Now let’s count it together:
    Jewish state 14.92 million
    (-) minus
    Negev is 12.5 million (83%)
    Equal 2.42 million
    (-) minus
    Jewish owned 1.8 million ( 12%)
    Equal 0.62 million (<5%)
    this is the land that was “given” to Israel

    So the UN resolution 181 allocated to Jewich State:
    a lot of crappy land (Negev) 12.5 million dunam
    + land they already bought and owned 1.8 million dunam
    + another 0.62 million dunam.

    Kids say “thank you for nothing”, yet it’s amazing, Zionists still took the deal!

    Negev, Bersheva which was (and still is) the largest town in Negev had a population of 7,000 (93% Arab) people in 1945.
    Today, the Negev is home to some 379,000 Jews ( that’s less than 8% of Israel Jewish population) and some 175,000 Bedouin.

    Now if you never had a chance to visit Israel, please do and while you there I suggest you take a open jeep tour of the Negev desert. What you will see is the result of 60 years of Israeli cultivation and government investment, and it still does not look that appealing.

    Sounds like Palestinians got a good deal in Resolution 181, since they get over 75% of the cultivable land!
    And how much of this land was a public land, without any private ownership that was also “given” to Palestinians?

  41. RH2 said on February 10th, 2009 at 2:13pm #


    Under colonial conditions yes, the Palestinians got somehow a good deal in Resolution 181. But this deal was messed up by an empty Arabic Heroism. Are you ready to help the Palestinians and make a new deal? What about Israel within the borders of 1967?

  42. kalidas said on February 10th, 2009 at 3:23pm #

    Gideon is obviously conflicted, suffering from the mass psychosis demonstrated by 95% of all so-called “Jews.”
    It’s Semite envy, stupid..

  43. Barry said on February 10th, 2009 at 3:45pm #

    Gideon – I didn’t do research to come up with a number, I know this number from past research – and if I thought it was necessary, I’d have been even more precise.

    The Negev was specifically desired by the Zionist Authority. It not only provided access to a second sea (Red Sea). it was believed, correctly to some extent, to contain mineral wealth including possible oil reserves. So the Negev cannot be posited as some burden to the Jews or waste land. If memory serves me, the Jewish population of the Negev was about one-half of one percent of the total population of Palestine. As far as land ownership in the Negev, it was largely near Beersheba and the Red Sea.

    That much of Palestine was state/Waqf is not very relevant. It was certainly not a waqf held in trust for Jews. So let’s be clear – Jews owned maybe 6.7% of Palestine and a percentage of that was owned by non- or anti-Zionist Jews who predate the Zionist arrival. Almost all the rest, save for non-Palestinian Christian land and some American Missionary land was land held by Muslim or Christian individuals or by their local or Ottoman authorities. That land would be all rights be conveyed to the native natural inhabitants of the country. So your math is bogus, Fact is, Jews were a distinct minority in Palestine – in fact, a minority in EVERY district. At their peak (until the ethnic cleansing of 47-49) they owned less than 7% of Palestine and constituted about one-third the population. At most, if the UN were to allot land on this basis – Jews would set up their state in two coastal cities. Earlier recommendations were more in line with this plan. And of course – Jerusalem was to be internationalized. Bersheba having been a small town is of no importance. It was however, as you write, an Arab town.

    I have been to Israel a number of times – and I have been all over Israel and Palestine – from the Lebanese border to the Dead Sea. I have hiked miles in both the Judean and Negev Deserts knowing that my guide knew exactly where a certain spring would flow from the rock. I’ve been in car, jeep and on foot – only to encounter a loan Bedouin woman on a donkey, who looked for all the world, none the worse for having been in the desert for hours.

    Yes, you are right about the desert. Israel did not make it bloom. It was a desert when the Zionists arrived – and it still is. Yet that propaganda has been around for generations. Sure, citrus is grown where the soil is fertile enough. But all that amounts to is a waste of water, in fact, a pound of exported fruit is basically a pound of exported water – from a land that needs all the water it can get.

    Palestinians rightfully rejected giving 55% of their home to the recent arrivals who constituted but a third of the population and who lived largely in a few coastal cities because they were uninterested in the interior and what it takes to produce a society. The Palestinian rejection of this General Assembly recommendation (181) meant it was legally moot. So the Jews pressed their case through violence. Thus Israel was born.

  44. Max Shields said on February 10th, 2009 at 3:49pm #

    Barry, please keep posting, but the “convincing” or ridding us of this non-sensical malarchy by Zionist-speak doesn’t seem to be working, I’m afraid.

    Again, your historical perspective is valuable for those, as you say, get it.

  45. bozh said on February 10th, 2009 at 4:03pm #

    in 1932 there were 192,000 ‘jews’ and 1 mn canaanitic-shemitic-arab people in palestine.
    jewish pop 1920 rose from 10% to about 20% because of illegal immigration into palestine.
    in 1936 ‘jewish pop counted 386, 000 jews. once againg UK allowed them to com in.

  46. bozh said on February 10th, 2009 at 4:15pm #

    barry brings us interesting information. he’s doing well refuting ‘zionist’ claims, and exposing half truths, brazen lies, etc.
    max, you’re right about not expecting to convince more than a few ‘jews’.
    and gideon probably never. however, we need to keep exposing their lies because of new readers who are sitting on the fence or are even proisrael because they read msm.
    we actually need these selfhating ‘jews’ and selfhating supporters of criminal behavior.
    one indeed has to be selfhating to write as gideon does. thnx

  47. Barry said on February 10th, 2009 at 4:25pm #

    Correction: Jews were maybe one half of one-percent of the Negev population (not Palestine’s).

    I was just reading about a bit on pre-state Zionism. It seems Zionists began visiting Mussolini’s Rome in the late 20s. Chaim Weizmann was invited back to Rome for a conference with the Fascists on 9/17/26. Il Duce and Il Zionist apparently had a cordial conference as good press for Zionism began to flow in the Italian papers after that. On 10/26/27, the Chairman of the Zionist Executive and future president of the World Zionist Organization – Nahum Sokolow met with Mussolini. According to Michael Ledeen, Sokolow not only praised Mussolini as a human being but announced his belief that Fascism was immune to anti-Semitism. “True Jews have never fought against you.” These words, tantamount to a Zionist endorsement of the Fascist Regime, were echoed in Jewish periodicals all over the world. As a new legal relationship was established between the Jewish community and the Fascist state, expressions of loyalty and affection for Fascism poured out of the Jewish centers of Italy. (Michael Ledeen, ‘Italian Jews and Fascism’ in Judaism (summer 1969) page 286.)

    The prominent professor and rabbi Sacerdoti gave an interview to the Italian paper Guido Bedarida. “Professor Sacerdoti is persuaded that many of the fundamental principles of the Fascist Doctrine such as: observance of the laws of the state, respect of traditions, the principle of authority, exaltation of religious values, a desire for the moral and physical cleanliness of family and the individual, the struggle for an increase of production, and therefore a struggle against Malthusianism, are no more or less than Jewish principles.” (Guido Bedarida, “The Jews under Mussolini” in Reflex (October 1927) page 58.)

    So we see an early Zionist affiliation with Fascism – one based in similarly organic views of society – Israeli behavior today is but a continuation of this philosophy.

  48. Barry said on February 10th, 2009 at 4:43pm #

    Thanks Max, thanks Bozh.

    Bozh, I think your figure of 386,000 Jews in 1936 against a total population of what, maybe 1,5 million(?) shows Jews in that period to be no more than one-third AT BEST, likely less. UN 181 partition had to be so convoluted to find space for Jews that even the Jewish allotted land was something like 55/45 Jewish. The Arab allotment was something like 97/3 Arab. Oh, to be so well connected in the halls of power! And the stipulation of 181 was that if either side rejected it, the resolution was rendered moot. And that’s what happened. Later in ’48 the US changed its mind as well as to the usefulness of 181 – and reversed its earlier support. By then, the Jews had more guns than they knew what to do with. And they were not above contaminating Palestinian springs with typhoid germs – an early example of bio-terrorism. What a crew!

  49. Gideon said on February 10th, 2009 at 5:27pm #

    Israelis want peace and security and ready to make a new deal!
    That’s what matters!

    What I or you are prepared to accept does not really matter outside Dissident Voice discussion, no matter how stimulating it can be.

    Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world need to negotiate a deal.
    I believe Israeli public has been ready for a long time.

    For everybody’s benefit, let me walk you through the numbers, I was under the impression you like numbers.

    Mandatory Palestine land – 26.3 M dunam (-) Negev 12.5 M = 13.8M That’s the land is where the majority of Israelis and Palestinian Arabs live today.

    Out of this land UN 181 state partition allocated:
    Jews 2.42M (17.5%) Private Jewish ownership: 1.8M (/2.42=74%)
    Arabs 11.38M (82.5%) Private Arab ownership: ? (/11.38=?%)

    (Barry: can you plug in the number, based on your prior research?)

    Population of Mandatory Palestine in 1947:
    2/3 Arabs and 1/3 Jews.

    UN allocated Jews 17.5%, instead of 33% Jews should have got if it was divided based on population. More than that, 74% of that land Jews purchased and owned. (that should have been quite a stimulus to Palestine economy at that time)

    Not only there was No stealing, Jews got the short end of the stick and as a compensation were given the Negev Desert!

    Kids say “thank you for nothing”!
    Yet it’s amazing, Zionists still took the deal!

  50. DanE said on February 10th, 2009 at 6:01pm #

    What is amazing is Gideon’s imagination. McBozo Retchy is not even a troll, he’s just a vandal.

    Re affinity of Zionism & Fascism, is it forgotten that the original “Betarim” was not a futbol team but a “youth group” modelled after Mussolini’s Blackshirts? cf. Lenni Brenner, “Zionism in the Age of the Dictators”, also “The Iron Wall: Revisionist Zionism from Jabotinsky to Shamir”.

    Re “making deals”, cf. Brenner’s “51 Instances of Nazi-Zionist Collaboration”. Zionists made many many deals with Hitler but did it save the Six Million?

  51. Hue Longer said on February 11th, 2009 at 5:34am #

    I enjoy (if joy has a place at all) reading the comments from Max and Bozh and comments from Barry’s additions are very useful! Please stick around Barry, as your research and personal experience is refreshing (pointing out Gideon’s well poisoning doesn’t do much, so I mostly read instead).


  52. Hue Longer said on February 11th, 2009 at 5:36am #

    Not just Max and Bozh and Barry…cheers to all who post

  53. Suthiano said on February 11th, 2009 at 8:21am #

    Ben-Gurion was happy to get Negev Desert… maybe he was inspired by Las Vegas?

    Just for sophistry’s sake, Gideon, what was the Christian population? Should they not receive own state and percentage of land? Certainly Christians in Jerusalem should have “ownership” of portion of that city?

    Also, since support for Israel (and thus the basis for UNGA Res. 181) can be traced back to the Balfour Declaration of 1917 shouldn’t we consider percentages then? I don’t have for that year, but do for 5 years later in 1922, after the passage of first White Paper, authorizing Jewish immigration according to “economic absorptive capacity” of the country.

    First British census of Palestine of 1922 shows population of 757,182, with 78% Muslim, 11% Jewish and 9.6% Christian.

    It should also be noted that 1922 was one year after the founding of Haganah, the illegal underground Zionist military organization, and one year prior to Vladimir Jabotinsky’s calls for the forcible colonization of Palestine and Transjordan, upon stepping down from Zionist Executive.

    Shouldn’t you be bringing up Gilead Shilat at this time, sophist?

  54. bozh said on February 11th, 2009 at 9:12am #

    yes, according to martin gilbert ( israel, a history p.76) yabotinsky, the leader of youth movement said in ’34, I devote my life to the rebirth of the jewish state, with a jewish majority on both sides of the jordan.
    this is known as Betar Oath.

  55. Gideon said on February 11th, 2009 at 10:28am #

    Negev Desert 50% of Mandate Palestine land mass with 0.5% of Palestine population in 1947. The “jewel” of Palestine comprising 83% of Jewish state based on 1947 UN 181.

    Palestinian Arabs had Christian and Druze minorities. I am not aware of any of these groups seeking self determination. Do you? Please share with us.
    Christian Arabs in Syria and Iraq who have studies in American Christian colleges do get the credit for starting the Arab Nationalism movement after Turk revolution in 1908. Before that Middle East Arabs were proud of being Muslim first and Ottoman second. It’s understandable after 500 year under Ottoman rule (or was it “occupation”?)

    UNSCOP– Special Committee on Palestine with delegates from eleven member states commenced its work in Palestine on May 1947 and presented its report to the UN, which was the basis for UN 181.
    Do you usually make your decisions on the facts from 20 years ago?

    Suthiano, for your personal sake, I hope not …

    If Jewish state has been established in 1922, it would have had different borders. I wonder, why was not it established in 1922?
    Any ideas?

    Ben Gurion may have been inspired by Las Vegas, the timing is about right, who know? One thing for sure, he was a realist, had balls and accepted what was possible taking tremendous risks on behalf of the Jewish people.

    Now some would argue that what Arabs (Palestinian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian and Iraqi) have done by attacking the new Israel state was LOGICAL. The line of thought was probably like that:
    ” Arabs have strategic advantage: own 83% of the land, Jews are sitting only on 17% of the land; Arabs are many 1.2 million, Jews are few 0.6 million; Arabs have armed coalition of five countries and brave Palestinian Arabs who know the territory; Jews are weak, just came from concentration camps, unarmed, unfamiliar with the land landscape; Arabs have British support, Jews have been fighting the British – no support”.
    It looked like a slam dunk! It even sounds logical today. It did not make it JUST! (where are all the Justice seekers on Dissident Voice?)
    AND THEN THEY LOST! Who could imagine that? None of the Arabs for sure. And then they lost again, and again, and again, and again, …
    Well someone learned the lessons of history: Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel. Palestinians in Jordan hopefully have a better life.

    Palestinian Arabs have been looking a leader for the last 60 years.
    Do you think there will be the ONE around in the near future that is capable to accept reality and give his people a chance for a better life?
    We all will be holding our breath ….

    I am just warming up. You are welcome to bring up ANY subject, it would be my pleasure to bring some clarity to it.

  56. RH2 said on February 11th, 2009 at 10:34am #

    bozh wrote, “in 1932 there were 192,000 ‘jews’ and 1 mn canaanitic-shemitic-arab people in palestine. jewish pop 1920 rose from 10% to about 20% because of illegal immigration into palestine. in 1936 ‘jewish pop counted 386, 000 jews. once againg UK allowed them to com in”.

    Because of illegal immigration into Palestine in 1920 ? I do not know, whether the immigration of Europeans to America in 1492 was legal. The whole Arab World in the Middle East was in 1920 either British colonies or protectorates (the French concentrated on Lebanon and North Africa).

    At the time of British colonization there was no legality. The British have demarcated borders and imposed their own legalizations. Now we have facts on the ground. The Palestinians are alone at the mercy of modern Imperialism and Arab indifference. The “historical research” above does not help a single Palestinian. Suggestions for practicable solutions are more useful.

  57. Gideon said on February 11th, 2009 at 11:07am #

    Yes, they CAN. Only Palestinian government with Authority can negotiate and close the deal. Palestinians need to bring order to their house and establish a leadership with “Authority”. Arab world should let Palestinian finally decide their own fate, stop using them as a tool and start investing in Palestinian economic development.

    As long as there are claims of injustice, there will be arguments. We are all students of history, so separating opinions from facts it a good process.
    Today action is what matters.
    Unfortunately in the Middle East, everything is shwaye, shwaye.

  58. bozh said on February 11th, 2009 at 11:10am #

    i think you are right about the word “illegal” being inaccurate to limn some euro immigration to americas. i’m not even sure that some immigration to also america wasn’t actually welcomed by at least some redpeople.
    some canad’n indigenes even now say that immigrants to canada are elcome.
    however, comparison btw immigration to americas and immigration to palestine reveals startling differences.

    immigration of euros to palestine during even first aliyah in 18th century was vigouroulsy opposed by natives. second aliyah, lasting until ’40 or so, was opposed even violently.
    alas alack, ottoman empire had always welcomed ‘jews’ to their empire.

    unfortunately for canaanites UK had also welcomed euros illegal immigration to palestine but in much greater numbers.
    canaanitic protest against euro immigration fell on christian deaf ears.

    i say that immigration into palestine was illegal and immoral because of the ‘promise’ of the balfour declaration of ’17 that no harm shld come to natives resulting from establishing a home for euros in expalestine.
    obviously the ‘promise’, even at a glance, reveals it was a sham.
    so, i think, i’ll reassert that immigration into palestine had indeed been illegal, immoral, and even a criminal act. thnx

  59. bozh said on February 11th, 2009 at 11:20am #

    in ’22 with just a few thousands land stealers, even opposed by the 10,000 sitting judaists, cld not even dream of having a state at that time let alone estabilsh one.

  60. Barry said on February 11th, 2009 at 12:19pm #

    Gideon – You are working double-overtime on the dunam numbers but there’s no need. The modus operandi and goal from the very beginning – as per Zionist founder Theodore Herzl, “We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country.” That’s a mouthful – deny Palestinians employment in Palestine and drive them into the desert. (This is how Zionists came up with the notion that Arabs wanted to drive them into the sea – they were projecting their own plans onto the Palestinians.) While that proved momentarily impossible, the Palestinians being a stubborn people, the Zionists eventually did get the UN to give the Jews the maximum amount of land that would still retain a Jewish majority – albeit a mere 1% majority. What’s ever is left will be for the Arabs. That was quite a feat on the part of the UN. After all, Jews were a distinct minority in EVERY district of Palestine, and in some districts virtually non-existent. So it meant giving the Jews the Negev (which the Zionists dearly wanted for its economic potential), and as much as possible of heavily-populated Arab areas without Arabs going over the 50% mark. In essence, the UN was intent on gerrymandering a Jewish state into existence. It is not surprising that the Zionists took the deal – they were going from 0% to 55% . It is not surprising the Palestinians rejected the deal – afterall it was their country. Yet had the Palestinians known that a Zionist plan was already in the works to ethnically cleanse the country of non-Jews maybe they would have signed on to 181. But then again, its pretty clear that accepting a ‘mere’ 55% was only a means to an end – to bring all of Palestine under Zionist rule – as Herzl wished.

    As far as Palestinians prospering economically, all that means is that, under British colonization, Palestine was transitioning from largely pre-capitalist economic relations to a European capitalist economy. Thanks to the British colonization Jews in coastal cities lived better than they ever had in the shtetl. So too did urban Palestinians and fellahin in yet un-Zionized areas. It was in areas where Zionists were evicting tenant farmers that quality of life fell off drastically for Palestinians. Further, the rush for real estate drove up land rents drastically at prices that only western funded Zionists could afford. Rich Jewish families like the Rothschilds help foot the bill to put Palestinian lands into Jewish hands. And of course, the Jewish National Fund’s mandate was to buy land and put it under Jewish ownership ‘in perpetuity.’

  61. Barry said on February 11th, 2009 at 12:45pm #

    RHS – Certainly the continued arrival of Europeans in the Americas and in Palestine without the consent of the inhabitants was immoral. It was accomplished not because they should but because they could. It was about power in both circumstances. The Palestinians (and other Arabs) never recognized the re-occupation of their country by Europeans. The promise had been that the Middle East would be free of outsider rule. The Brits and French violated that promise. I think it is important to understand that European manipulations were not viewed as legitimate. And the Middle East was not a lawless fronteir. There were of course pre-existing laws – Ottoman and local law. Both the Brits and later the Israelis have used Ottoman and Jordanian law whichever best fit their nefarious goals. (The Israelis added their military law to the mix to control even Arab citizens of Israel before ’67.)

    Basically, the Palestinians are at the mercy (what mercy?, one might ask) of the US and Israel, the rest of the world – going by UN votes – wants Israel to follow 194, 242 and subsequent resolutions and Court decisions that demand Israel go back to pre 6/67 borders. There is of course a blanket of apathy brought on by the deadly stonewalling tactics of the US and Israel.

    Follow what the world has deemed the law – that’s the practical solution.

  62. Barry said on February 11th, 2009 at 12:49pm #

    Bozh – And even prior to the Balfour note, the Hussein-McMahon correspondence promised a Middle East free of outside rule. The promise was betrayed by colonizing the region and bringing in European colonists. And in the final analysis – it was even by the Brits own rules that the vast majority of Jewish immigration was illegal.

  63. bozh said on February 11th, 2009 at 1:56pm #

    barry, yes,
    even UK considered some immigration illegal according to martin gilbert who writes as a friend of some israelis.
    he, in his book, Israel, a history cites at least a few cases of UK sending ‘jews’ back to cyprus and europe.
    on one occ’n, ‘jewish’ terrorists in order to cripple a ship with immigrants on board, have planted dinamite in it so as to prevent it from leaving the port.
    however, the blast was too damaging and ship sunk with most people drowning.

  64. Barry said on February 11th, 2009 at 4:26pm #

    Bozh – That would be the refugee ship Patria. Haganah dynamite killed 200++ Jews. Of course, Hagana says that was not their intention – but who plants dynamite on ships thinking it will not kill anyone?

  65. Barry said on February 11th, 2009 at 4:35pm #

    Gideon – The reason there are two rival groups vying for power in Palestine is because Israel refused to make peace with the Palestinians when the PLO was the only game in town (save for a few radical groups). If Israel had done what it was supposed to do and withdraw from the remainder of Palestine and come to a just settlement of the refugee issue, there would be no Hamas today to deal with. Israel never misses a chance to screw itself. Not one dunam of land was gained by Fatah/PLO in those several decades. Instead, the PLO became the PA and functioned as Israel’s puppet forces. So many Palestinians looked elsewhere. And of course, as is well understood now, Israel encouraged the rise of Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO. Like I said, Israel never misses a chance to screw itself. If only they did not take others down in doing so.

  66. Barry said on February 11th, 2009 at 5:18pm #

    Zionistische Vereinigung fur Deutschland (ZVfD) the Zionist Party of Germany began soliciting the patronage of Adolf Hitler repeatedly beginning in 1933. Here’s a bit of a letter sent by the ZVfD to the Nazis on 6/21/33. “On the foundation of the new state, which has established the principle of race, we wish to fit our community into the total structure so that for us too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland is possible…. We too, are against mixed marriage and are for maintaining the purity of the Jewish group…. Thus a self-conscious Jewry here described, in whose name we speak, can find a place in the structure of the German state….We believe in the possibility of group-conscious Jewry and the German state.” It goes on in a similar vein. The document remained under wraps until 1962 when it was published in Israel – in the original German. (See Lucy Dawidowicz (ed.) ‘A Holocaust Reader’ Pages 150 – 155) In short, the German Zionists did not fight Hitler before he came to power when there was still the possibility of his defeat. Given this failure to resist during the Weimar Republic, and given their race theories, it was inevitable that they would end up as the ideological twins of Nazism.

  67. bozh said on February 11th, 2009 at 5:21pm #

    another reason for palestinian split may be that fatah ‘knows’ [ or strongly believes] that the peace is not available for decades+ no matter what pals do or don’t do..
    how about hamas? is it just tactics with no strategic goal in mind?
    or does religion play a role for hamas? and if so (it seems so) to what extent?
    of course, hatred/vengeance is always present.
    i do not evaluate that abbas et al are traitors. it shld be recalled that fatah with arafat had rejected clinton’s offer.
    now obama offers even less. had fatah ‘ known’ or believed that by rejecting the insulting offer, palestinians wld lose more land. probably, i deduce.
    but still cldn’t accept a diktat or even an insult?
    however, US policy does change. world plutos may get tired of that cult.
    and decide to force israel into a just peace; perhaps one state?!
    to me, this appears as an optimum deal. thnx

  68. Barry said on February 11th, 2009 at 6:02pm #

    I think Arafat enjoyed the limelight, enjoyed running around with the big boys in foreign capitals, found a niche for himself and many dozens of fat cat Fatahmen. These are the guys that the average Palestinian would see riding around in limos. They are the ones who got contracts from Israelis to distribute goods in the WB&G, and they are the wielders of patronage. At least since Oslo, the transformation of the PLO into the PA has largely meant that this organization functions as an extension of Israeli policy – their enforcers. Not that its as simple as that. Arafat would like to have been the liberator of Palestine, and certainly, Fatah/PA did not always cooperate with Israel. But too often it did. So we see the rise of a group with the discipline of Islam – religion being something people often turn to when the other -isms fail them. Hamas, as might be expected as it became a more important player, modified its stance. The call for a 10 year or 50 year Hudna (truce) is a way of saving face. In other words, Hamas accepts Israel because it realizes it has no choice – but to say that is to lick the feet of Israel, it is to admit that Israel was right to commit genocide against the Palestinians – so recognition ain’t gonna happen. Besides, Israel implored Arafat for many years to recognize Israel. Even beginning in the 70s Arafat made peace overtures. These got more explicit as time went by and eventually he recognized Israel in writing – in Arabic, Hebrew, and English. Israel ignored it and the occupation tightened just a bit more.
    Arafat did not reject Clinton’s offer – or diktat as you more correctly put it. They agreed to meet again. Arafat, Clinton, and Ehud Barak then took the party to Taba. One fine day, Barak walked out of Taba, went back home to campaign against Netanyahu and said that Arafat rejected peace. So it was not Arafat who quit – but Barak, because he was afraid that he was not being tough enough for a rabid Israeli populace.

    I don’t believe in a One-state solution. For one, the Israeli mindset is a pretty sick one. There’s a lot of pent up race hatred – I mean, we see them trying to evict their own Palestinian citizens 60 years after statehood. While in 48-49 liberal Zionism triumphed in theory, Revisionist Zionism is what really won the day for Israel. And Revisionist Zionism is race based, it believes in the essentialism of race. It uses this and the Holocaust to keep Israeli Jews in a perpetual state of paranoia. So I would not wish living with Israelis on anyone. The Palestinians are kind of a collective Jesus. They are dying for the sins of others. Who would trade positions with Palestinians? I think no one.
    Secondly, surveys over the years have shown that most Palestinians believe in a 2-state solution. Granted, many espouse in anger for the annihilation of Israel, but who wouldn’t after someone has stolen your home and killed your brother or sister. Still, larger majorities of Palestinians favor a two-state solution than do Israelis – in many surveys. I ask myself – can I be more radical than the Palestinians themselves? I think not.

  69. Gideon said on February 11th, 2009 at 6:29pm #

    Hamas and Fatah are BOTH Israeli puppets! The coming Palestinian civil war will be only because of Israel! Even more Israel controls the Arab League and the UN, that’s how it was able to pass 131 resolutions against itself. It also made deals with the corrupt leadership of all neighboring Arab countries (plus Iraq) to wage wars against itself so it can subjugate Palestinian Arabs.
    Should I continue, or was it enough sarcasm?

    Are we done with all the unsubstantiated claims about the land theft leading to 1947 UN 181 or are you too struck by the numbers?

    Yes to Palestinian state.
    Yes to economic development.
    Let’s start with Gaza.
    Palestinians, with Arab economic investment stimulus, can show the whole world what they can build in Gaza. How about Abu Dabi model or Gaza Riviera? How quickly do you think Gaza can get off world’s welfare?

  70. Barry said on February 11th, 2009 at 7:14pm #

    Gideon – Sarcasm? I think you were just being silly.

    The numbers for Res.181 are simple. 30%(Jewish population) X 7% (Jewish land ownership) = 210. 210-181(UN res) = 29. 29×2 (’cause Jews are worth double) = 58. 58-3(for internationalized Jerusalem) = 55% (the amount of land to be turned over to the Jews. Almost as silly as your dunam counts.

    Of course a state of Palestine. In all of the WB&G with E Jerusalem as its capital. With ALL the rights and responsibilities of all nation-states. Settlers and troops return to Israel. A decent sized corridor connecting the West Bank and Gaza. Israel acknowledges the right of return and works out a return and compensation system for refugees. Leave economic development to the Palestinians. They have been businessmen for centuries – back when Jews were Hebrews in some other desert. They just want the Israeli jackboot off their necks. As far as welfare goes, Israel has been on Palestinian welfare for decades – in confiscated taxes. That can go for refugee compensation. The real question is: can Israel function without US welfare and American Jewish donations? I don’t suppose we’ll ever have to know.

  71. Gideon said on February 11th, 2009 at 10:05pm #

    Can Palestinian politicians deal with the art of the possible or will they cling to the wish list? Probably depends who will be in charge when the smoke clears.

    We are not really negotiating. I do not have any authority. Do you?
    I understand you may have a wish list, we all do. The wish list should not stop Palestinians to make a deal and start building their own country. I believe the goal should the well-being of the people: economic development, education, health, arts, leisure, women emancipation – quality of life.
    Jerusalem will be there forever. They can always come and visit Jerusalem in peace.

    Gaza is a welfare state.
    Maybe you can offer us some different economic data?

  72. Hue Longer said on February 11th, 2009 at 11:54pm #


    Will you ever acknowledge? You poisoned the well with the welfare comment, got corrected and now move on to something new and will wait again before bringing up welfare again. Worse is that I don’t think you’re a fuckwit….you do this intentionally like it’s your job. Is this your job?

  73. Gideon said on February 12th, 2009 at 1:07am #

    Who is feeding Gaza? Economic data on Gaza? Is Gaza a welfare state?
    How can Gaza support itself?

    you welcome to pitch in with the answers

  74. mary said on February 12th, 2009 at 2:44am #

    Hue – would this be one of the same wells that the Israelis destroyed in Gaza? This is a paragraph from a BBC website page (and the BBC are not particularly friendly towards the Palestinians – viz the blocking of the DEC appeal broadcast) which reports the aftermath of Vilnai’s ‘shoah’ so ably visited on Gaza by Olmert, Barak and Livni.

    Before the Israeli operation, Gaza’s water and sewage system was already in dire need of maintenance and spare parts.

    The fighting damaged water wells and pipes, and led to shortages in the fuel that powers them, leaving half a million Gazans without running water. Two weeks after the ceasefire, 70% of Gaza’s water wells were functioning, but some localities and 10,000 people in Beit Hanoun were still without water.

    Gaza’s sewage and water body estimates it will cost $6m to repair the water and sewage network.

    Officials have confirmed that all two million litres of wastewater at Gaza City’s treatment plant, bombed on 10 January, leaked into surrounding agricultural land.

    A pump that sends sewage from Beit Hanoun to the Beit Lahia wastewater treatment plant was also damaged, leaving sewage flowing onto the streets.

  75. Hue Longer said on February 12th, 2009 at 4:35am #

    Well (hehe) Mary,

    I suppose it would be if Gideon was relying on drinking from those same wells…but he is like an attorney from the Alan Dershowitz mold who relies on selling 12 TV weened thinkers into giving credit to his begged question–damned the logical implications. The guy is a pro or a hobbyist who loves the game more than the stated cause… His smirk shines through. He hasn’t done any wet work but preens over his lies like he’s one of the “brave” butchers. It’s a big circle and distraction, and as Bozh indicated is something which only needs to be addressed for tourists dropping by looking for perspective. I think the guy is laughing and doesn’t believe in any of the crap he’s peddling.

  76. Barry said on February 14th, 2009 at 12:07pm #

    Gideon -You are apparently under the mistaken impression that Gaza is an entity apart from the West Bank. Gaza is part and parcel of Palestine. Its economy will be part of the Palestinian national economy. Gaza has for the last 42 years been under Israeli occupation and siege. There is no point in discussing its economy except as one that is under Israeli control. Gaza of course imports goods, but it has to do so surreptitiously, as it is under the Israeli gun.
    It should also be noted that because Gaza is under occupation, its people are forced to carry Israeli-issued ID cards. And Gazans are forced to pay taxes to Israel (which monies, of course, they never see again.) In short, while Israel strangles Gaza, it also rummages thru its pockets.

  77. mary said on February 16th, 2009 at 4:19am #

    Just received

    > (ANSAmed) – ANKARA, FEBRUARY 2 – The trade volume between Turkey and Israel has reached to 3.3 billion dollars in 2008 from 1.4 billion dollars in 2002 when the Islamist-rooted Justice and Development came to power, daily Hurriyet reports.

    The official data showed that Turkey’s exports reached 1.9 billion dollars in 2008 from 1.6 billion dollars in 2007. Turkey’s imports from Israel rose 36% in 2008 to 1.4 billion dollars. One of the main trade items between two countries is the defense industry. Turkey had auctioned the modernization of the M-60 tanks to the Israel Military Industries (IMI) for 668 million dollars. The IMI also won the modernization of the 300 military helicopters for 57 million dollars. Turkey signed three other deals with Israel for the modernization of war jets. The financial amount of these agreements is 850 million dollars. The tension rose between Turkey and Israel after Ankara harshly criticized the Israel’s operations in the Gaza Strip which left more than 1,300 people killed. The Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s reaction to storm out of the Gaza session in Davos is unlikely to effect the mutual relations, experts say. (ANSAmed).


    In addition to the tanks, helicopters and fighter jets mentioned above, Israel are also supplying drones to Turkey, the pseudo supporters of the Palestinians. I wonder if they have thought about the possibility of Israel’s bugs being planted during maintenance and upgrading of their shopping basket of war weaponry. Wickedness.