Spinning Gaza

Does Hamas Have a PR Problem?

If Hamas had the propaganda machine that Israel has, well, we might think that the Palestinians in Gaza have a right to defend themselves, that Hamas is actually a national resistance organization, and that the Israeli government is a perpetrator of state terror against civilians.

But you won’t see that in the NY Times or the Washington Post because they likely are getting their talking points directly from the National Information Directorate (NID), Israel’s spin machine whose job is to frame government lies and reduce them to sound bites for media consumption.

Mainstream media coverage of Gaza is beyond biased—it’s staged. Editorial pages and TV news shows are flooded with pro-Israel spokespersons. Interviews stick to a few repetitive talking points. Canned responses are never challenged. Underlying assumptions are never questioned. Dialogue is steeped in the simplistic “good versus evil” frame. No one questions, analyzes, or thinks. History, too, is violated, truncated to begin with the December 2008 barrage of rockets that, we are to believe, was the straw that finally broke the long-suffering patience of the Israeli government. Sound bites and spin have long substituted for journalism and analysis in the U.S. media; in the current Gazan conflict they have reached an apotheosis.

This disastrous situation—and if you’ve lived long enough, you would have seen it get progressively worse since Vietnam—demands to be challenged. Basic points of propaganda have to be unpacked and the entire picture must be reframed. We can begin with the two most pervasive cliches repeated ad nauseam by Israeli propagandists:

1. Israel has a right to defend itself. Israel had no choice but to launch a war. Against the onslaught of Hamas rockets, what would any other country have done?

2. Israel’s war is against the terrorist group Hamas, not against the Palestinian people. Israel does not target civilians, only terrorists. But, since terrorists use civilians as human shields, all civilian deaths and casualties are Hamas’ fault.

The reality? The larger picture is becoming crystal clear. But grasping it means giving up those insidious sound bites Americans are so addicted to and learning to frame events through logic and history.

Who has a right to self-defense? And what about those rockets?

That Israel, or any sovereign state, has a right to defend itself is not really at issue, and the fact that the Israelis continually resort to that smokescreen says a lot about the illegitimate nature of their assault on Gaza in particular and Palestinian society in general.

We’ve seen a new sound bite spring up in this war to bring the Israeli “self-defense against terrorists” claim to America’s doorstep: “If Canadians were lobbing rockets at Vermont wouldn’t the U.S. have a right to bomb Canada?”

Like most rationalizations born in desperation, this is pathetically void of reason. Canada and the U.S. are both sovereign states. International law gives sovereign states the right to defend their borders. Now, while Israel is a sovereign state, Gaza is an occupied territory. Despite Israel “leaving” Gaza in 2005, Gaza is still effectively occupied, since Israel controls land, air, and sea access, which it immediately sealed after pulling its troops and settlers out in 2005. This ongoing blockade has resulted in a grave humanitarian crisis.

We should also recognize that most Gazans are refugees from the very Israeli settlements Hamas is rocketing—driven out of their homes in the 1948 Israeli takeover of Palestinian land. This is all background information that is freely available in libraries and on the internet, but the Israeli government counts on Americans being as incurious as their leaders. Israel’s continued control and blockade over all means into and out of Gaza is a key issue in this present crisis: the siege is an immediate cause of the rocket resistance, and lifting the siege must be a part of a negotiated cease-fire.

The Israeli blockade of Gaza may be considered an act of war. Furthermore, denying an entire population food and medicine is a form of collective punishment and disproportionate violence, both of which are war crimes. So, even before we arrive at the latest brutality of the actual bombing of Gaza from land, air, and sea in December 2008, we have nearly three years of consistently tighter and stricter blockade measures that had humanitarian groups begging for international intervention.

Since so much of Israel’s propaganda around its right to defense depends on framing itself as the victim, it’s crucial that we be clear about who in this situation is legally and morally the victim and who is the victimizer. If we begin the narrative with a terrorist Hamas entering stage right and lobbying rockets at innocent civilians in Sderot, then we get one picture—the ahistorical NID picture. But if we widen the lens and go back a few years, we see that Hamas rockets are actually a defensive (and quite proportionate) response to the siege of Gaza and the violence of the occupation.

That the people of Gaza, and the West Bank, have a right to self-defense is recognized by United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2649, which: “Affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognized as being entitled to the right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal.” The Resolution also “Considers that the acquisition and retention of territory in contravention of the right of the people of that territory to self-determination is inadmissible and a gross violation of the [UN] Charter.”

Terrorists and Civilians

Since 9/11, “terrorists” have become the new communists. “Terrorist”—one who uses force or threats as a political policy to intimidate and subjugate—is a term with wide appeal to world governments. “Terrorist” is ambiguous and flexible: any individual, group, or nation can be labeled a terrorist by any other individual, group, or nation. “Terrorist” has the ability to instantly delegitimize any organized resistance by implying that resistance movements are a threat, not to their oppressors, but to the masses of civilians. “Terrorist” has great fear potential: it pushes our “security” buttons, so populations easily fall into compliance and willingly forfeit their civil liberties when the threat of terrorism is raised by their leaders. “Terrorist” also has long-term potential; unlike communists, who were more or less tied to the life and death of the Soviet Union, terrorists are linked to a religious ideology, Islam, and can endure indefinitely.

Although historically “terror” was understood to be the advantage of the dominant classes, particularly the state, to keep the masses in line, it is no surprise that in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the term is redefined to mean any resistance to Israeli occupation. Had Hamas never used suicide bombings or rockets against Israeli civilians, had not one single Israeli civilian died in the last 60 years at the hands of a Palestinian, it would not have made any difference—the act of resistance itself is enough to earn the label of terrorist.

But civilians did die—and many thousands more Palestinians than Israelis—so the “Israel as victim” frame was redeployed to absolve the Israeli state from legal and moral responsibility for all civilian deaths. The state, it is argued, is just defending itself from terrorists who target civilians and use civilians as human shields. Every civilian death in Gaza has been attributed to Hamas—not only by Israeli propaganda, but publicly by the U.S. Congress.

The targeting of civilians by Hamas rockets is used by the Israelis to delegitimize Palestinian resistance and rationalize the massacre in Gaza. But it smacks of the double standard so common among states.

In Gaza, numerous accounts of Israel targeting civilians have been reported by the UN, human rights organizations, and European aid agencies. Amnesty International investigators have collected evidence that the Israeli army holds Palestinian families prisoner in their own homes as human shields: “Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position,” said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International’s Middle East and North Africa Programme. “This clearly increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned and means they are effectively being used as human shields.”

Nor is targeting civilians a new charge against Israel. The slaughter of Palestinian civilians by Israel or its puppet allies has been documented at Sabra and Chatila in 1982, where up to 3,500 civilians were murdered; in Qana in 1996, where 106 civilians were bombed; and in Lebanon in 2006, where more than 1,000 civilians were killed by an Israeli invasion. In addition, thousands of Palestinian youth were killed or maimed for the single crime of throwing stones at their military occupiers, and journalists and peace workers, like Rachel Corrie, have been murdered by the Israeli military just for taking photos and teaching Palestinian children. In fact, the practice of Israelis targeting civilians by using Palestinians as human shields has been so widespread that in 2005 Israel’s Supreme Court actually ruled that the Israeli Defense Forces were prohibited from continuing the practice. In this current crisis, the siege and destruction of Gaza is nothing if not the targeting of civilians and the civilian infrastructure.

Is it just about land?

Territory is certainly the major issue behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Since 1967, Israel has sabotaged every attempt at peace, including funding Hamas as a counter to Fatah, since it knew that Hamas at that time rejected the idea of a two-state solution. But now that Hamas has repeatedly agreed to peace based on the 1967 borders, Israel has had to find other obstacles to sabotage the peace process. Pulling out of Gaza in 2005 was only a prelude to building more settlements on the West Bank—it was meant to kill the two-state solution, not support it. There is more than enough historical documentation to argue that Israel does not want a two-state solution because it does not want to give up the Palestinian territory it has already annexed.

But behind the conflict over land is the deeper and more intransigent issue of racism, and the apartheid state that Israel is building speaks volumes to the bigotry that lies at the heart of the zionist project. It is embedded in Israeli laws, is inculcated early in Israeli children, and the Israeli press reports that anti-Arab racism is making ideas like population exchange and racial segregation more acceptable to the Israeli population. This can only further the true Israeli agenda of pushing the Palestinian population onto Egypt and Jordan, or keeping it locked indefinitely within an apartheid state.

Gaza, and the Islamic Resistance Movement (aka: Hamas), are paying the price for 60 years of terror, dispossession, and duplicity on the part of Israel and its U.S. and European allies.

Donna Saggia is a freelance writer living in St. Paul, Minnesota. She can be reached at: donnasaggia@msn.com. Read other articles by Donna, or visit Donna's website.

93 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. Michael Kenny said on January 19th, 2009 at 8:07am #

    A far better defence of the Palestinians’ right to defend themselves is to ask the question whether Israel was in fact acting in “self-defence”. Israeli citizens are colonising land in the West Bank which even Israel admits is Palestinian land, and doing so with the connivance, if not support, of the Israeli military. To draw a parallel with WWII, if, when Germany occupied France, it began to displace the French population and replace it with German colonists, would the French resistance have been justified in attacking the Germans for that reason? And if the Germans retaliated, would they have been acting in self-defence? The answer to the first question applies to the Palestinians and the answer to the second applies to Israel.

  2. bozh said on January 19th, 2009 at 9:27am #

    we may be (about 6bn of us) antisemitic or selfhating anti semites or self hating jews but also right.
    the selfloving socalled jews are wrong.

    bears repeating: winning battles, raids is not winning peace let alone good wishes for israel.
    ottoman empire won battles after battles for 3 centuries against euros but by mid-19th century we beat them back.
    all lands formerly occupied by turks were completely freed.
    turks also had been very cruel according to historians; may be as much as israelis. thnx

  3. Gideon said on January 19th, 2009 at 12:43pm #

    Israel’s war in Gaza has been met with cries of protest around the world. They come from two sources.

    First, there are those who oppose any Israeli effort to defend itself, mainly because they don’t believe a Jewish state should exist at all. This is a form of anti-Semitism, and such a view should be rejected outright rather than argued with.

    Second, there are those who support Israel’s existence, but believe it is wrong to wage so harsh an assault on the Gaza Strip. This argument also takes two forms: First, that Israel’s response is disproportionate and therefore wrong; and second, that there are less violent ways to handle Hamas — through international pressure, sanctions or negotiations.

    Both of these claims, as logical as they may sound, ignore the lessons of history, including Israel’s recent history in fighting terror.

  4. bozh said on January 19th, 2009 at 2:00pm #

    gideon s`mhow manages not to notice or know or recognize the UN resolution 242 which guarantees existence of israel prior to its `67.6.6. aggression for more land.

    he also doesn`t see that israel does not exit; ie, has no borders nor does it bother to declare them for obvious reasons.

    he also doesn`t notice that it is mostly individuals like me, and not their respective govt`s, who do not give israel right to exist.
    such people may number just a few mns or even thousands.
    so he`s trying to tell us that mns of indviduals who don`t recognize israel annuls recognition of israel by no less than an empire such as US, not to mention an additional 150+ number of countries.

    he also omits to see that we recognize israelis right to defend selves and that right is an universal as is the right to defend selves.
    but he manages to recognize only israel`s right to defend self.
    and now for a century; always defending self while growing in size daily.
    well, what is one to expect for people with their own god. thnx

  5. giorgio said on January 19th, 2009 at 2:02pm #

    “Does Hamas Have a PR Problem?”
    Of course, it has! It hasn’t the power nor the finances that Israel has.
    In such a measly situation Hamas will always be the bad guy…theirs is an uphill struggle to de-demonize Arabs and Islam…whereas for Israel it’s easy street: play up the anti-semite bogus and gentiles/goyms just cower and shut up, even more so when their pockets are flush with dollar notes curtsey of zionism. Financial power talks or better still silences!

    Colonialism is back into the 21st century with a frightful, growling, bloody Revenge!

  6. RH said on January 19th, 2009 at 2:39pm #

    Yes, the Turks had been very cruel. They were at last defeated, because they were alone. But the terrorism in the so called state of Israel is a cruelty commited by a few million Zionists with the support of 2 continents, namely North America and Europe. Moreover there are signs that China and India are growingly flirting with the Zionist Club in former Palestine. Now, bozh, who would and could beat so many continents back?
    Thank you

  7. The Angry Peasant said on January 19th, 2009 at 3:04pm #

    At least a truce was reached. Now the Palestinians will have just enough time to catch their breath before the next zionist atrocity is launched against them. Maybe the non-imperialistic nations of the world should go round the Israelis up and bring them back to Auschwitz for a while. Don’t hurt them, just bring them there and keep them on bread and water for a year or two, with no outside contact. Have Palestinians dress in old SS uniforms and walk around banging their sticks against the cell doors. Don’t let them see any doctors, either. Let them rename the camp “The Great Reminder.” Of course, they didn’t learn anything about how to treat their fellow man after the first time, so it wouldn’t do any good, anyway. Not when they’re blinded by zionism.

  8. DavidG. said on January 19th, 2009 at 3:07pm #

    I would urge everyone to read the article on Al Jazeera about hideous ‘New Weapons’ used by the IDF. It will make your blood curdle.

    It will also give you new insight into the deranged Israeli-Jew mindset.


  9. Jennifer said on January 19th, 2009 at 3:44pm #

    I disagree with your premise.

    First of all, HAMAS is not Hamas. HAMAS is an acronym for “Harakat al Mawqawama al Islamiyya “, which translates to Islamic Resistance Movement.

    Why do you defend the right of Muslims to seize and take over land by the sword, but not the right of Jews to have a homeland?

    Israel should not allow anybody who does not wish to be Israeli, live in Israel. They should not have agreed to slice the land and should have taken over completely in 1948.

    You speak of reason, but I don’t see any in this article.

    Now, while Israel is a sovereign state, Gaza is an occupied territory.
    That would depend upon who’s side you take. There was never a Palestine with borders, government and military. Gaza is occupied by land that Israel should have kept.
    AND…Israel is NOT considered to be a sovereign state by Saudi Arabia or Iran, just as Tibet is not acknowledged by China.

    Israel’s continued control and blockade over all means into and out of Gaza is a key issue in this present crisis: the siege is an immediate cause of the rocket resistance, and lifting the siege must be a part of a negotiated cease-fire.

    Are you suggesting they allow suicide bombers to blow up more buses and restaurants? Really? Wow. They should receive MORE shipments from Iran, who just had 70,000 university students petition Ahmedi. to train for suicide missions? They should allow helicopters to drop shipments?

    The stalemate is this:
    Israel requires a cease-fire and HAMAS requires complete autonomy with open borders. In 2000, Israel agreed to recede to it’s pre ’67 borders, and have a Two State solution, but HAMAS did not agree and instead began operations again.

    In Gaza, numerous accounts of Israel targeting civilians have been reported by the UN, human rights organizations,

    Document these. It is not true. I’ve researched this and if you do too, you will find that the UN is not interested in human rights. In fact, a Jew, by the name of Hillel Neuer from UN Watch, is one of the few who are actually trying to hold the UN accountable. Watch the videos for yourself. Watch C-Span. The UN on Darfur is sickening.

    “Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position,”

    Well, let’s see. Let’s use reason. If Israeli soldiers are using civilian homes, that tells us the HAMAS soldiers are taking the fight into civilian areas.
    If HAMAS does not want civilians to be killed they would not shoot, would they?. If the situation were reversed, Israeli soldiers would not hide among the civilians in their towns.
    Iraqis did the same thing. They hid in civilian homes so U.S. soldiers – who knocked on the door before entering, by the way – also had to hide in either civilian homes or businesses. There really were bad guys. Have you heard about the Christians who are being killed in Mosul? That was happening before we occupied and now that we’re gone it’s happening again. My husband spent almost a year in Mosul – which is a historic city not treasured by Iraqis, but the British have tried to preserve some remnants.

    theirs is an uphill struggle to de-demonize Arabs and Islam

    No, Muslims do a great job of perpetuating what they say is a myth. Did you read the news this morning? UN Sex for Food? It never ends. Read the Qur’an, read the Hadiths and learn the truth about Islam…but of course, in order to do that, you must learn Arabic because the texts can only be understood properly in Arabic.
    If HAMAS kept their gripe over land and autonomy, you’d have a point, but they do what they do because they are Muslims who believe Jews should not exist. Read their Charter.

    If Muslims want to be de-demonized, they should cut out the anti-Jew texts and anti-Christian texts. One lady is a voice of reason on this issue.

  10. Laure said on January 19th, 2009 at 3:45pm #

    Here is an interesting article about Tzipi Livni. It briefly mentions her parents, heroes in Israel, who bombed trains in Palestine and attacked British military installations. What defines terrorism?


  11. mary said on January 19th, 2009 at 3:51pm #

    Have you quite finished your racist rant? The way you slide quickly past the Occupation – Al Nakba – the word ‘chutzpah’ comes to mind.

  12. Jennifer said on January 19th, 2009 at 5:12pm #

    A racist is someone who shows preference toward a race. Seeing as how both Jews and Muslims share a common semitic “race”, I cannot be called a racist. Anti-classical Islam, yes, racist – no.

    Please explain how Israel is “occupying”. Why isn’t the “occupation” of African nations being addressed? Why isn’t the original “occupation” of Israel by Muslims being addressed?

    Why can’t Jews have a little, tiny slice of land in the vast sea of Islamic nations? Really, why? And why won’t the Arab nations accept them? These are legitimate questions that have pushed me toward the right. Give me some real answers backed up with facts and I’ll consider them.

    Chutzpah might just be a compliment in this conversation. It seems you would seek to silence a different view.

    Kudos to the authors of this site for allowing free debate.

  13. bozh said on January 19th, 2009 at 5:12pm #

    is evoking signority right. it’s neither legally nor morally valid. in addition, palestinians as descendants of hated (by hebrews)canaanites and other shemites have inhabited the region for at least 7td yrs.
    so palestine wasn’t a country. norway, syria, slovakia, slovenia, bielo russia, jordan, kuwait, bahrain, etc. also were never countries.

    israel is still not a country; it is borderless. it is not declaring its borders for obvious reasons.
    israelis have made it clear that it doesn’t want palestinians. but of course, they don’t want for israel to be a state for ‘jews’.
    they are tired of being nonresidents or illegals.

  14. bozh said on January 19th, 2009 at 5:31pm #

    yes, you are right about turks being alone. and you are right about two continents being strogly anti palestinian.
    however, policies change. muslims become more numerous; acquire wmd and israel is gone.

    importance of israel will surely wane as US/nato expands and gets to the chinese wall. presently israel is being used as US/nato arm to bomb any site that may or may not be manufacturing wmd.
    that is possibly the only payback for US/europe’s babysitting israel.

    but even so, i can’t seee world plutos forever supporting the people with the worst imaginable cult.
    religions tolerate religions; no cult tolerates another; and each cult wants to utterly destroy every other.

    i think that secretely most amers despise these cultists. but who doesn’t ?
    in any case, israel will be gone; thats’ my fervent hope.
    i am not sure about asians; the darkies had been taking it for too long; their lands may be conquered also.
    amers are just at onset of settling the planet; they are not finished yet.
    so. it is quite possible that we may have war to end all wars.
    doesn`t look good for people in next few decades or centuries. thnx

  15. bozh said on January 19th, 2009 at 5:55pm #

    canaanites, hittites, amonites, amorites, moabites, edomites, hebrews, palestinians, and arabs are shemitic (“semitic“ being a euro corruption).

    but ashkenazic voelken are clearly not shemitic; they are germans, slavs, khazars, et al who latched onto judaism.
    mizrahic and sephardic folks appear to be shemitic but may be largely nonjudean; i.e., not jewish.

    when there was hunt for `jews`in germany from `36-44, germans often hadn`t been able to identify many german `jews` as ` jews` . the reason being that many of the `jews` looked more german than most germans.
    in addition, to nazis, even a person with one fourth `jewish` blood was a `jew` ,
    euro `jews` are not jewish at all. they did not even speak hebraic but yiddish, a german dialect. and few if any had hebraic names.
    most of these people have taken up hebraic names only to show that they are real jews, thnx

  16. giorgio said on January 19th, 2009 at 6:35pm #

    “Read the Qur’an, read the Hadiths and learn the truth about Islam…but of course, in order to do that, you must learn Arabic because the texts can only be understood properly in Arabic.”

    Quite frankly, Jennifer, I couldn’t care two hoots about the Qur’an, the same way I don’t care ‘four’ hoots about the Torah and the Talmud.

    What I do care about is what I see on a dayly basis on TV and in the news about the slaughter of an indigenous population by a nation, Israel, with high pretentions to be ‘civlized’, cultured and morally upright! Strangely enough, so did the Germans of the Nazi era hold themselves in such high regard!
    Is this just coincidence or part of a pattern?

    As for me having to learn Hebrew in order to understand properly the lofty principles of the Torah and the Talmud; quite frankly, again, I wouldn’t waste ten minutes of my time to learn one word of it. In fact, I would rather rely on the scholarly insights of a knowledgeable Jew — a Jewish “insider”- like Professor Israel Shahak who in his book “Jewish History, Jewish Religion, the Weight of Three Thousand Years” gives an eye-opening account about the beliefs and behavior of his fellow Jews.

    In fact, I must admit to my unstinting admiration for it takes a real Jew to browbeat another Jew to a pulp! Gentiles/Goyms are, generally, just too wimpish and cowardly to match such Jews.

    I need only quote some introductory remarks on this book’s review to make the point:

    “When the Roman historian Tacitus pointed out 19 centuries ago that the Jews are unique among the peoples of the world in their intense hatred and contempt for all peoples but their own, he was only repeating what many other scholars had discovered before him. For the next 1,900 years other investigators came to similar conclusions, either from a study of the Jews’ religious writings or from a study of the Jews’ behavior toward non-Jews.

    Notable among these was the reformer, Martin Luther, who in 1543 wrote in “Von den Juden und Ihren Lugen”:

    “Does not their Talmud say, and do not their rabbis write, that it is no sin to kill if a Jew kills a heathen, but it is a sin if he kills a brother in Israel? It is no sin if he does not keep his oath to a heathen. Therefore, to steal and rob, as they do with their usury, from a heathen is a divine service. For they hold that they cannot be too hard on us nor sin against us, because they are of the noble blood and circumcised saints; we, however, are cursed goyim. And they are the masters of the world, and we are their servants, yea, their cattle…

    “Should someone think that I am saying too much, I am not saying too much, but much too little. For I see in their writings how they curse us goyim and wish us all evil in their schools and their prayers.”

    The Jews responded to Luther like they responded to all the others. They put him down as just another “hater,” blinded by religious bigotry. And today that’s still the Jews’ standard answer to everyone who says or writes anything about them except the most fawning praise.”

    It so happens that I’m only half way through reading an Internet downloan of Shahak’s book. I find, I can only take it in small doses at a time because ever so often, when reading it, I have to get up, get away from my PC, and rush off to the loo, and puke!

    Finally, I take this opportunity to make a minor correction to my previous post’s ending line:

    Colonialism is back into the 21st century with a frightful, growling, bloody VENGEANCE!!!

  17. Brian said on January 19th, 2009 at 7:01pm #

    Rachel Maddow couldn’t report on Gaza because NBC had no reporter inside.

    Did that stop Amy Goodman?

  18. Jennifer said on January 19th, 2009 at 7:09pm #

    I don’t think we can understand the history and culture of a people group unless you actually read what they write, instead of what others write about them.

    I’m not extoling the virtue of Jews altogether, there have been and are still, Jews who perpetrate hatred, as all people groups do, BUT Luther was wrong. He, himself, was part of the European hate machine when it came to Jews and other groups. He was one of the witch hunters and I don’t think I’d take his word about that, necessarily. The Talmud is commentary on the Torah, and as such, the Torah is the root. Nowhere in the Torah does God tell the Israelites it is not a sin to kill a heathen. The word “heathen” isn’t even in it.

    The Hebrews had good reason to steer clear of most, if not all, cultures.

    Colonialism is back into the 21st century with a frightful, growling, bloody VENGEANCE!!!

    Muslim colonialism you mean?

  19. DavidG. said on January 19th, 2009 at 7:55pm #

    Jennifer, spinning is obviously one of your great talents.

    I wonder what percentage of the world’s people give a rat’s arse about the history of the Jews. I mean, there’s only a handful of them compared with the 6.5 odd billion of us. And if they all disappeared tomorrow and took their anachronistic beliefs with them, the sun would still rise.

    Some people might even cheer.

  20. Jennifer said on January 19th, 2009 at 9:53pm #

    I forgot to thank you for the added info..

    The whole world should care about the history of us all. The issues surrounding the middle east are ancient, not new.

    If people would cheer for the annihilation of the Jews, is it alright for them to cheer for the destruction of Gazans? The suffering of Jews is somehow less than that of others? Josef Mengele would have totally agreed and he thought he had the anthropological evidence to back him up.

    I’m bowing out, this is disturbing.

  21. Gideon said on January 19th, 2009 at 10:14pm #

    We all would like to know who are the people that died in this latest conflict.

    From TV announcements in Israel one can learn about every death: civilian and military.

    Will Hamas or the Red Crescent release the list of casualties in Gaza: names, gender, age ?

  22. Zionists Were Complicit in 9/11 said on January 20th, 2009 at 12:57am #

    David Icke has Israel’s number:


  23. DavidG. said on January 20th, 2009 at 1:21am #

    The suffering of the Jews? The world is sick of hearing about the suffering of the Jews.

    At the moment I’m concerned about the suffering of the Palestinians, the ones crushed under the heavy boots of the IDF in Gaza. I’m concerned by the terrible weapons that the IDF used on innocent women and kids, the horrific injuries, the nearly six thousand injured, the twenty thousand who are homeless, the lack of water and sanitation and electricity, the bombing of schools and U.N. facilities, the war crimes the IDF committed. I’m concerned that Gazans still live in a concentration camp, that there are IDF thugs on their streets who might be joined soon by American thugs.

    The suffering of the Jews? Stuff the Jews!


  24. mary said on January 20th, 2009 at 1:37am #

    Jennifer I think the others here have replied as I would have done. As you bow out, take this to consider.


  25. Ali Bali said on January 20th, 2009 at 6:28am #

    Jennifer said on January 19th, 2009 at 5:12pm #

    You are delluded. Palestine never exclusively belonged to the Jews at any time in History as there were many civilizations which settled the land. Islam just happens to be the majority religion in Palestine and other Arab nations, just as christianity is the majority religion in Europe. Does this give the Arab Muslims now a right to claim Spain as their land simply because Spain was under Arab Muslim rule for approx 800years and has holds some of the greatest achivements of the Islamic era? Of course not! Spain belongs to the people of the land just as Palestine belongs to the people of the land (the Palestinians) regardless of their religion. Palestine was Arabized during the 7th century when the Caliph Omar entered Jerusalem. Many Jews and Christians of Palestine converted to Islam over time and adopted Arab/Islamic culture, which has happened in many various parts of the world including Europe, which adopted the Christianity of Rome and subsequently the European culture we see today. This does not in any way mean that the French do not belong in France or the English in England.
    Therefore as a Palestinian I find it insulting how you can justify the conquest of my homeland in the name of your religion in the 20th century! The Kingdoms of David and Solomon, which saw Jewish civilization rule small kingdoms within Palestine (not all of Palestine) lasted only 500 years collectively! While Arab and Muslim rule existed in the land for over 1500 years, so much so that the actual character of the land was disctinctively Islamic and it’s peoples inluding Jews and Christian adopted a unified Arab culture. What Zionism has done like all other colonial conquests is to destroy the indiginous history and culture of the people who have existed in the land since before Islam, introducing a culture alien to the land, which is European in character!
    While the Palestinians under Islamic rule lived as one people Muslims, Jews and Christians, Zionism prefers one religion over all others and provides equal rights to Jews only, which by any moral standard should be destroyed as it is a facist and biggoted ideology.

  26. RH2 said on January 20th, 2009 at 6:45am #

    I have already seen a fellow mailing in DV under the name of HR or RH. To avoid confusion, I have renamed myself from RH to RH2.


    I do not feel comfortable about your vision of destroying Israel with wmd. I would rather hope for a less cruel dismantling: Freeing the US Congress of the zionist grip, cutting diplomatic ties, initiating military and economical sanctions. In doing so, the zionist tribe will vanish in ca. 10 years. But my question remains unanswered: Who would begin the process? Anyhow, dreams are not forbidden on DV.

    Thank you and please do not be so cruel in your dreams !

  27. swan said on January 20th, 2009 at 6:50am #

    I agree with David G. And the jews in Israel need to stop flying their death dealing drones over the impoverished, unhoused, lovely people in the Gaza Strip. You need to honor the government of Gaza’s ultimatum, that you set his people free. That’s Hamas’s order.

    Check out jew-did-911, on line, and 911missinglinks.com.

  28. Ali Bali said on January 20th, 2009 at 8:03am #

    Oh to read some of my articles please visit http://www.palestinianblues.blogspot.com

  29. Andrew F said on January 20th, 2009 at 9:44am #


    no one is suggesting the annihilation of Jews, nor is there any suggestion that it is realistic to expect the Israeli state suddenly to be dismantled in order to create a more equitable (federal or otherwise) structure to serve all the peoples of the territories in question.

    However, I consider it intellectually dishonest to gloss over what is the premordial event – that’s to say, the displacement of existing non-Jewish communities from Palestine (a territory at the time administered under a League of Nations/UN Mandate by the UK with a view to the self-determination of the local population) by Zionist-inspired Aliyahs (mass migrations to the promised land) of Jewish semites to the region in order that the jewish proportion swells exponentially as to then further cement any Jewish claim over the land and to vest it with a sense of legitimacy (numerical grounds etc). No amount of spin may belie the intentions of the proto Zionists who themselves resorted to terrorising innocent civilians (the non-Jewish local population) to achieve this degree of ethnic cleansing/change in demographics.

    You reject the Palestinians’ (for the avoidance of ambiguity: i.e., the existing (and their successors) non-Jewish communities that were displaced and dispossessed by the Israeli State) claim to be an occupied people on the premise that the land in question, it seems you suggest, was never a sovereign state in the possession of the Palestinians per se – regarding this, I refer you to the Mandate document itself (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp ) and to recital 2 regarding that the creation of a homeland for international Jewry should not be to the detriment of the civil and political rights of the existing non-Jewish communities. What nations acknowledged in a matter of fact manner is now denied by you and the Israeli state unilaterally and arbitrarily. To deny a people a connection to the land is a calculated step towards denying a people personhood. With no personhood, self-determination becomes irrelevant.

    A two-state solution appears within reach but increasingly eluding – perhaps a one-state solution should be revisited. Northern Ireland provides an example of how this could be achieved. A homeland for Jews could exist in a non-partisan state which shows no preference towards any of its ethno-religious components. For further analysis of this proposal see Ali Abuminah’s ‘One Country: A Bold Proposal…’. Perhaps a federal structure might hold the answer to the Palestinian to the Kurdish questions for enduring peace and harmony in the Middle East. Part 2 at the following link http://www.marxist.com/israel-pulls-out-of-gaza.htm propounds the marxist position.

    Perhaps you might like to read both and let me have your views – in the final analysis, to fervently defend the Zionist position only exposes your people to more harm due to the aggressive counterproductive practices of Israel (supported by its golem across the Atlantic) and threatens the survival of the state in the long run. Israel has two choices: machtpolitik to destruction, or honest engagement with all parties including Hamas. Irrespective of how the US/EU have chosen to label Hamas, to regard it as a terrorist organisation (on the premise that ‘terrorism’ is defined, say, as the infliction of physical and other harm coupled with fear and terror on non-combatants) legitimises views that consider Israel a terrorist State actor in light of the recent onslaught of innocent non-combatant Palestinians.

  30. Gideon said on January 20th, 2009 at 12:17pm #

    Islamofashists committed 9/11 (PLEASE pay attention)

    The site you provided has ONE number (800).

    When will the Red Crescent release the list of casualties in Gaza: names, gender, age ?

    How should we count the Fatah members executed by Hamas?
    Casualties of local friendly disagreements?

    It’s amazing how Hams thugs wore civilian clothes and hide in residential houses with civilian population. You could not find a SINGLE uniformed person for three weeks on the streets and then within ONE day after ceasefire you got the WHOLE hamas security force policing the streets!

    You do not have much choice when a couple of armed hamas men walk into your home and tell you to shut up and sit in the corner, unless you are a part of their family, then it’s just a job security decision, which can end up putting the whole family at risk.

    Gazans have a problem – no leadership that wants to build, just destroy

  31. Tree said on January 20th, 2009 at 12:28pm #

    “Islamofashists?” What are those, Muslims who are into clothing?

    Israel claims to have such a fantastic spy network and such amazing snipers, they could have easily taken out the militants in Hamas. Instead they bombed UN buildings, an orphanage, dropped phosphorous bombs, killed over 1000 civilians and destroyed Gaza. What does that tell you about the IDF?

  32. giorgio said on January 20th, 2009 at 1:18pm #


    “Muslim colonialism you mean?”
    You know damn well what I mean.
    Your acrobatics between spinning and playing dumb and then back again…just amuses me.

  33. bozh said on January 20th, 2009 at 1:22pm #

    we can be clear on the universal human rights. one of them is the right to bear arms. another one is the right to return to one’s habitat regardless why one left it.
    hamas, and previously PLO , have been denied those rights. these are crimes of enormous proportions. and these crimes are continuing.

    and these crimes may go on for decades longer or until palestinians obtain wmd; probably chemical and biological before nuclear.
    and these weapons will be used against israel.
    i do not have to propose to pals to destroy israel; they know what needs to be done.

    israel with one of the worst cults on record cannot be changed by dialog or negotiations; it can be changed by one state solution.
    but most ashkenazis are war criminals. some, in name of justice, must stand trial in death; others who are living must also stand trial.
    that can be achieved only by the destruction of that state but not all of its people.

    anything else is rewarding enormous crimes against all of us. that must not ever happen. rewarding criminals like sharon, peres, barak, bengurion, begin wld ammount to a crime.
    it wld enbolden other folks to do what ‘jews’ have done. thnx

  34. The Angry Peasant said on January 20th, 2009 at 2:15pm #

    …And as I watch the Presidential motorcade I think to myself, “Where is Lee Harvey Oswald when you need him?”

  35. Tree said on January 20th, 2009 at 2:23pm #

    You are such a hateful person. Pathetic.
    Why can’t you just face the fact that your anger is about your own feelings of failure and nothing else?

  36. Gideon said on January 20th, 2009 at 2:23pm #

    US is a country build by immigrants. Over a million of legal immigrants arrive to US every years and similar number of illegal immigrants.

    Israel is a country build by immigrants.

    850,000 of them came from the Arab world. These are Jewish refugees from the Arab world that became integral part of Israel.

    Why the Arab world with its huge lands and populations did not accept, resettle and integrate Palestinian refugees, believed to be around 650,000 in 1948, for the last 60 years?

    Why insisting on keeping them in refugee camps for 60 years was good for the Palestinians and how did it benefit Arab world that continued to wage wars on Israel every 8 years and terrorist border attacks in between?

    There are two UN agencies dealing with refugees: UNRWA and UNHCR
    The UNRWA is only concerned with assisting Palestinian Arab refugees in the Middle East while the UNHCR handles the rest of the world’s refugees, displaced, and stateless persons.

    Something looks unusual here?
    Palestine and the WHOLE WORLD!
    The world that has on average 200 conflicts going every single day?

    Are you sure that none of you can use your energy on helping solve any of the World problems and humanitarian sufferings?

    During this 60 year period the UNRWA has not resettled or repatriated any significant number of these refugees, and the refugee population under its jurisdiction has exploded in size. This is not due to any failures on the UNRWA’s part; this outcome is by design.

    In a totally unprecedented move, the UNRWA has also included within its refugee population all the descendants of the original refugees; their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. We are currently on the fourth generation of refugee descendants, each one exponentially increasing the refugee count.

    UNRWA’s ignoring what is known as a cessation clause related to the acquisition by a refugee of a new nationality. You become a citizen you are no longer a refugee.
    According to the UNRWA’s own statistics , there are now 1.7 million registered Palestinian refugees living in Jordan. ” With the exception of 120,000 refugees that came from Gaza, “All Palestine refugees in Jordan have full Jordanian citizenship …” This means that if the UNRWA would cancel refugee status with the acquisition of a new nationality, 25% of 4.7 million Palestinian refugees would instantly be solved.

    UNRWA as the ONLY refugee agency currently, or in history, that has not been mandated with repatriating or resettling the refugees under its care.
    This model that was successfully applied to literally tens of millions of European and Asian refugees was apparently not worthy of being adopted by the UNRWA for Palestinian Arabs. It instead exists only to provide aid, indefinitely, until someone else finds the solution.

    So what were UNRWA motivations for the last 60 years who is paying for UNRWA today?

    The UNRWA maintains a staff size of over 4 times more than that of UNHCR and requires half the budget, but only operates in a measly 4% of the countries UNHCR does and is concerned with only 13% of the number of people the UNHCR handles. The UNHCR has already settled 50 million refugees and is currently responsible for over 32 million people while the UNRWA is focused only on 4.4 million; a population that not only should have been resettled three or four generations ago, but is exponentially increasing in size.

  37. DavidG. said on January 20th, 2009 at 3:01pm #

    Unfortunately, given the freshness of the Gaza genocide in our minds, the bleating of the Israeli-apologists here is pathetic.

    Why don’t you just disappear for a while, stop wasting your time. The whole world now knows what Israeli stands for and will never forget it!


  38. Max Shields said on January 20th, 2009 at 4:07pm #

    DV posters, this spat of zionists who guggle on and on like infants are a waste of time. Why not treated them as such.

    By the way, DV is about Dissonant voices not MSM Zionist talking heads.

  39. kalidas said on January 20th, 2009 at 4:25pm #

    Gideon, here’s your “Islamofascists.” Who’s your daddy?


  40. Neil Spire said on January 20th, 2009 at 4:27pm #

    “Hamas has repeatedly agreed to peace based on the 1967 borders…”
    This is pure drivel. This site is so chockful of false insinuations and interpretations, it flies in the face of reality. To read these posts, you have to believe that Hamas is a democratic government – not just democratically elceted but democratically run – and that it is in Israel’s interest to send in its soldiers after having yielded Gaza three years ago.
    Plus, if you read the comments, you will find a preponderance of anti-Jewish diatribes – but of course, that’s OK because this site is devoted to championing the Palestinians, right? So racism is OK when used against the other side.
    Amazingly, everyone here ignores the deliberate and fanatical declarations made by Hamas.
    Even Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president, told a summit of Arab leaders in Kuwait on Monday that Hamas initated the offensive by refusing to reapply the ceasefire.
    Maronites, Copts, Eastern Orthodox and missionizing Christians have been victims of Islamic prejudice for centuries. This prejudice is manifest in serious and measurable ways: in most Islamic countries, religious inequality requires that non-Moslems must wear distinctive clothing, may not look a Moslem in the eye, may not defend themselves in court against a Moslem and must pay a tax. In the case of proselytizing, non-Moslems can be sentenced to death, as has happened repeatedly.
    Hamas is a religious party, not a nationalist one, and it has been completely open about its intention to destroy Israel. Hamas didn’t make the protection of its citizens a priority – it forced them to serve as civilian shields to protect Hamas fighters. Hams has publicly and repreatedly declared that it wants an end to Israel in any form, on any part of that territory. What part of genocide don’t you get? While the world condemns Israel for its bias against Arabs, I never hear any comments about the “Islamic Republics” which have separate laws for non-Moslems or, as in Saudi Arabia’s case, exclude non-Moslems. All Israel has asked Hamas to do is to stop their shelling of Israel. Hamas refused to do so.
    This site has accused Israelis of every crime and allowed itself to be used by those who would minimize the Jews’ legitimate rights to safety by hitting them with the “zionazi” canard. Most of you have ignored the islamic rhetoric but don’t mind manufacturing notions of what Israelis think. If you read the Israel papers in English, you see that Israel reconciled itself to a two-state solution after the Oslo Accords – there was relative peace on both sides. Most Israelis are prepared to return the West Bank (and have already returened gaza but as you can see, it gave them no respite). Given that the Arab nations have attacked Israel five times, Israelis want to be assured that any concession is not a strategic move on the Arabs’ part to go, OK, now what can we negotiate to get next?
    What really ticks me off is the careless way the word ‘genocide’ is tossed around on “dissonant voice”. This is just a blatant attack that is going around the internet like a virus. The meaning of “genocide” is the intentional killing of an entire people”. Israel, I think even you would admit, has the firepower to wipe Gaza off the map (Sorry, Ahmanidajad, for stealing your line) but has not done so, not now, not in the 1967 war, not the 1973 war when the three Arab armies attacked Israel with the EXPRESS INTENTION of wiping Israel off the map. Israel’s military might has preserved Israel, not destroyed the Palestinian entity – and you need only acknowledge Fatah’s continuing existence to know that this is true. However, Hamas has publicly and continually pledged to destroy Jews – and every Islamic attack on Jews worldwide is evidence of extremist Islam at work on that goal. That is the definition of genocide. If you want to acknowledge war crimes, you can find specific regulations barring attacks by a militia in civilian clothing fighting from within a civilian milieu.
    You might want to ask yourselves the reason Islamic terrorists blew up buses in London, trains in Madrid, hotels in Mumbai and a shopping mall in Bali. The West better wake up. Europe is already 20% Moslem and the rhetoric from some imams is definitive and open: Europe, they pledge, will be Islamic.
    Dare to consider that Israel is not the reason for terror attacks; it is the front line against a worldwide campaign to islamicize the West.

  41. bozh said on January 20th, 2009 at 4:47pm #

    some facts. isr was not built; isr was established by ashkenazic terror.
    arabs are not keeping pals in camps; isr is.
    much of arab land is desert.
    pals don’t want to leave palestine. very few left; most were driven out by terrorists.

    so, arab lands are not guitly; isr is.
    arabs shldn’t reward criminals by cleansing palestime of palestinians.
    palestinians may have lived in the region for at least 7td years.
    they are not leaving in shame; they are not dying in shame.
    ashkenazic wishes pals evanesce are jus wishes; old wishes; ever since the first zionist congress of 1897.
    zionists have failed.

    it is the israelis who are leaving palestine because it is a monster land. thnx

  42. bozh said on January 20th, 2009 at 4:58pm #

    nevertheless their hunt for the snark, i still refute their ‘facts’ and elucidate their intent. as some readers may believe that the land stealers are telling the truth or saying anything of import.

    it is obvious that israel’s supporters lie routinely or dwell on insignifacnt anectodes. but some people may be deceived. that’s why debunk their messages, etc. thnx

  43. mary said on January 20th, 2009 at 5:08pm #

    Max As Dissident Voices, I think we fit the bill. This is Merriam-Webster’s definition – : disagreeing especially with an established religious or political system, organization, or belief

    I know the Zionist propagandists are a persistent irritation but it is difficult to resist taking them on when they are putting out such garbage.

  44. Gideon said on January 20th, 2009 at 5:42pm #

    What’s next for Gaza?

    Can hamas bring prosperity to Gaza people?

    The money that has been promised by the Arab world, around $2 Billion should allow to create a temporary construction boom, that could last a couple of years.

    This presents a challenge and an opportunity to create a sustainable economy.

    Can Gaza do it?

    What kind of leadership and financial support are needed in order to move Gaza from a welfare state to self reliant state?

    Can Gaza economically afford to support its world highest birth rates: average 6 children per woman?

    For the last 60 years Gaza welfare state has been sustained by UNRWA.
    Between 1950 and 2008, Gaza’s population has grown from 240,000 to 1.5 million. This is a population increase rate 10 times higher than in western countries.

  45. bozh said on January 20th, 2009 at 5:51pm #

    mary, we can respond to posters who defend isr because we want new readers to obtain an elucidation.thnx

  46. Neil Spire said on January 20th, 2009 at 5:53pm #

    Mary, fascinating. Rather than refute my points, you just trash. You might want to try and think about substance instead of merely holding on to your prejudices.

    Note to bozh: I will allow that English is not your native tongue, so your abuse of the language is understandable. But to deny that Jordan and Egypt kept Palestinians in refugee camps for 19 years is ludicrous.

    Here’s the bottom line. You need to hear it even if you won’t acknowledge it: There is one fundamental issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and that is the steadfast unwillingness of Islamic fundamentalism to tolerate a non-Muslim state in their midst. From this one issue all else flows, including all the wars and terrorist campaigns preceding the current Gaza tensions.

    And why doesn’t anyone here address the facts? Islamic bigotry; Hamas’ call for Israel’s destruction; The Palestinians used as civilian shields by Hamas fighters. Please, people, have a little intellectual honesty.

    We live in a world where, when Muslims kill Muslims, it’s incomprehensible. When Jews kill Muslims, it’s a massacre. And when Muslims kill Jews, it’s the weather channel. Nobody cares.

  47. Gideon said on January 20th, 2009 at 6:09pm #


    A dissident: broadly defined, is a person who actively challenges an established doctrine.

    It looks like I am the dissident here, challenging dogmas applauded by everybody else.

    The best know dissidents are the Soviet Union dissidents. The only weapon they had was a written word and it did not include hate, labels or dismissals.

    Hang in, be constructive and maybe we can elevate this to the level of a true dissident forum and learn something along the way.

  48. Max Shields said on January 20th, 2009 at 7:02pm #

    Mary the reason it may seem irresistable is they don’t have the goods. We’ve got amongst us some real lightweights. I’m not sure how old Gideon and Jennifer are, but I suspect this is all new talking point stuff.

    These are not the problem, they have no power. This from Counterpunch today gives us a glimmer of the real problem:

  49. Danny Ray said on January 20th, 2009 at 7:26pm #

    Neil Spire,,
    Hell son, don’t you understand that the only people who can be victims of genocide are people who have their own propaganda machines. Look at those poor black bastards in Dafar the Stinking arabs are killing them wholesale and none of these dogs in here give a damn about that, More children have been killed in the south of Sudan than will ever be killed in Gaza. But you can’t talk about how the Jews rule the world or how The American empire is horrible by writing about that. Have you seen anything in here about Sudan, No you haven’t nor anything about the South of Thailand, or Mindanao. Nor will you, they can’t sit on their pompous asses and proclaim that it is all a plot by the bankers by talking about the murders the arabs are doing. You won’t see anything about child abuse in arab lands or how about the treatment of women and gays either. Because that don’t fit the party line. A Rabs get a free pass here.

  50. giorgio said on January 20th, 2009 at 9:39pm #

    Holy Moses! After the recent bestialities committed by Israel in Gaza, an army of Zio-Nazi defenders has suddenly come out of the woodwork, most likely sponsored by AIPAC, and do some desperate PR in a vain attempt to wash away its horrific blood stained image!

    Mary’s link (repeated below) to a juxtaposition of WWII Nazi pictures versus present Israeli brutalities in Gaza where,

    “The grandchildren of Jewish holocaust survivors from World War II are doing to the Palestinians exactly what was done to them by Nazi Germany” is quite an eye-opener.

    Here are PICTURES speaking for themselves!


  51. giorgio said on January 20th, 2009 at 9:47pm #

    Thank You, Mary!

  52. The Angry Peasant said on January 20th, 2009 at 9:56pm #

    The real truth in this whole, crazy, never-ending story is that the Israeli government is intrinsically and what’s passed for leadership of the Palestinians over the decades hasn’t been exactly award-winning, either. But the Israelis are the stronger; they are the aggressors, whether or not whoever will admit it. Fourth largest military on Earth (thanks to us); they’re the aggressors. If they didn’t want to be, they wouldn’t have to be. But they do. Very much. They thrive on it. This would not be the first people on the planet to thrive on warfare. Israel is just one of the latest. They’re a pest; a flea on the ankle of the world that needs to be flicked into history. I’ve been listening to this shit about these whiny, manipulative little rats all my life. My earliest memories of television news were about poor Israel and their precious holy land. They’re really just children pitchng a fit because some kids they don’t like are on their end of the playground. That’s all they’ve ever been. HAMAS are no heroes; let’s be sure about that. They suck, like so many whacko Arab fundamentalists before them. It gives the sane Palestinians a bad name. But make no mistake: Those dead children were never given a chance, because they had the gall to be born near a Synagogue. That’s all there is to it.

    And “Tree,” go piss up a rope. I already have a woman to nag me, thanks. Go bleed your little heart out somewhere else.

  53. Shabnam said on January 20th, 2009 at 10:14pm #

    It has been reported by DUBAI (Hayyan Nayouf) that:

    {More than one million Israelis who speak a second language have been recruited to monitor blogs in English, French, German, and Spanish and more are to be recruited for Portuguese and Russian blogs, Erez Halfon, director general of the Immigrant Absorption Ministry, told the Israeli daily Haaretz Monday.}

    {The ministry media department directs volunteers to websites that are considered “problematic” in hopes of focusing attention on the positive aspects of Israeli life and the way Israelis suffer because of being under a constant threat of terrorism, the Jerusalem Post reported Monday.}

    This explains the reason behind recent zionist visitors who give Israli’s version of history at this site.

  54. The Angry Peasant said on January 20th, 2009 at 10:25pm #

    Well, Shabnam, then they can monitor my ass!

  55. Gideon said on January 20th, 2009 at 10:30pm #

    It may do you some good to invest more time studying the Holocaust.

    Yes, Chuck Spinney knows how to build a bomb! The rest of the Gaza comments is just disregard for the facts.

    In fact, hamas resumed the launching of dozens of rockets more than a month before — not after — the truce expired on Dec. 19. As the Associated Press reported on Nov. 5, 2008
    “at least 35 rockets were fired from the strip early Wednesday, but there were was no immediate word of injuries or damage.”

    Hamas fired 190 rockets and 138 mortar shells into Israel between Nov. 4 and Dec. 16.

    Based on what we know about the rocket stock piles in Gaza today, it’s clear where hamas expenditure priorities had been since 2006. There is no business like terror business! We can call it:
    New Gaza Terror Economy.

    It does not look like Gaza is on the way of becoming the next Riviera.

  56. Jennifer said on January 20th, 2009 at 10:44pm #

    Before answering some of the legitimate points that have been brought up, does anyone representing the views of Dissident Voice believe that Israel is under ANY international threat?


  57. The Angry Peasant said on January 20th, 2009 at 10:54pm #

    Like I said, Fourth largest military on Earth. U.S.A. protecting them, so nobody will sneeze in Israel’s direction, let alone attack them, for fear of losing American aid or trade, or being the next Iraq. The Palestinians throw a few sticks once in a while. Yeah, I think they’re pretty well set. Unfortunately. And I say “unfortunately” because they need to be stopped, dismantled, sent away. The same way Hitler needed to be. Because he was a threat to overall world peace. Israel is the same way. I can easily envision them picking a fight with someone a lot bigger than they are, then running to the United States for aid and protection, which we’ll be obligated to give thanks to AIPAC and others, and before you know it, it’s World War III. Might be Iran, might be Syria, who knows? But is it coming? You bet your ass.

    I don’t want my son to die because of a few million warlike Jews. Period.

  58. Hue Longer said on January 20th, 2009 at 11:01pm #

    International threat? That doesn’t even imply Gaza…Maybe Iran? According to experts, they aren’t even a potential threat and could only be one hypothetically in 10-15 years. What are you on about, Jennifer? Is Mars about to attack Israel?

  59. Hue Longer said on January 20th, 2009 at 11:06pm #

    sorry…boycotts are a small chance/affect threat. Also, maybe having the entire international body see Israel as a bunch of European snobs killing black people and stealing land is a threat to self image

  60. Jennifer said on January 21st, 2009 at 1:00am #

    Angry Peasant,

    Because he was a threat to overall world peace. Israel is the same way. I can easily envision them picking a fight with someone a lot bigger than they are, then running to the United States for aid and protection, which we’ll be obligated to give thanks to AIPAC and others…

    If you are comparing Israel to Hitler, you have made a looonng stretch. And Mary too. The website Mary provided (and I appreciate the thought), was an emotional plea, not a factual representation.
    The images may look similar, but the actual events and motives behind the images are diametrically opposed.

    Do you think it’s plausible for the Jews to have one spot on the globe to call theirs and then be left alone? Are you saying that Jews would not be happy to have one spot and would show their true colors by becoming an “expansionist power”? What do you think about the expansionist powers of Islam in Africa? No one seems to want to answer that….I’ll probably be called a racist again for that one and that’s alright – I can take it.

    Do you know your demographics? Take a look at this. Are you seriously telling me that there is no threat to Jews who are surrounded by nations claiming close to 100% Muslim Rule? This map is from a site called Islam Inside, it is not from an anti-Islamic site. Or how about this? Can you show me something of a like nature which Israel has been accused of preaching?

    The article you linked to is woth taking point by point, but I only have time for one comment. The attack on the USS Liberty was most likely intentional. Those things have happened in history. I wonder if you are aware of the Japanese atrocities committed during WW2? Are you ready to denounce Japan for brutally killing millions of Chinese and conducting human experimentation on Philipinos, Chinese and our Airmen? How about thier attempts at biological warfare? Oh yes, read all about it. It was the Holocaust the Japanese unleashed which has been all but swept under the rug. The bias is obvious.

    Andrew F.,
    I would like to discuss your points. You seem to be the most educated person commenting. Do you have a blog? I’m feeling a bit rude taking up so much space here. I did look at your links, thank you.

  61. bozh said on January 21st, 2009 at 2:25am #

    neil spire,
    all arab lands and most or perhaps all muslim lands recognize israel.
    israel/US does not recognize israel.
    and if muslim lands recognize israel that means they tolerate it as well.

    egyptians are not palestinians; that’s why it gave up on gaza. egypt is not responsble for the plight of pals. neither is jordan.
    israel is perpetrator of most crimes against pals including prevention of their return.

    th issue is not ‘abuse’ of language; the issue is, did you or did you not understand?
    a differing diction is not abuse of language, but you have tried to abuse me. that’s how most israeli defenders behave.
    but as i said before, most defenders of israel are simply hunting for the snark. or they assiduously revise history. the most obvious one is starting the history of this conflict not with balfour declaration in ’17nor warfare by ashkenazic voelken with a cult or expulsion of palestinians via terror in ’45-48 but in ’08 with a disputable and minor event.
    by reviewing history from a propitious time, one can prove anything.
    we also know you will defend israel no matter what the facts. so, i’m really not writing to you but to new readers.

    if one disputes facts, one is not a dissenter but either right or wrong. the word “dissent” applies only to having a different opinion or have a different plan of action.

    so, DV, allows you to opine, suggest this or that be done. i am for free speech. you can say anything you like.
    but once you deny that israel had expelled ca. 800td palestinians and most other important facts, then there is nothing left to talk about.
    so, from now on, i won’t be addressing you any longer if we do not agree on even one fact. thnx

  62. bozh said on January 21st, 2009 at 2:46am #

    time for some serious talk. first, you’re right about japanese, darfur, and muslims abusing their women.
    in darfur, i am told, it is an intraethnic warfare divided by religions, islam and christianity.
    it also seems that muslims are shepherds and christian are farmers. and the clash arose because of a severe drought that led to shortage of land suitable for grazing or tilling.

    i have written many times about abuse of women in moslem lands. children are abused everywhere and not just in muslim lands. in addition, to me, islam is a cult; however, not as bad as judaism.

    i know people will praise judaism because it has some good things to say. but all that is negated by the sour in it. and sweet and sour treatment may be as bad or even worse than just sour treatment alone. thnx

  63. DavidG. said on January 21st, 2009 at 2:54am #

    God, are the Israeli plants still here? I told them to go away. They’re like a bad smell, aren’t they?

    From the amount of flatulent noise they make and the demands they present you’d think Jews made up most of the world’s population. In fact, they make up just over 1%, the top 1% according to them. In fact they believe the other 99% are inferior, goys in fact, definitely poor quality. But as not as inferior as the Arabs, especially the Palestinians.

    Why anyone argues with such deluded, elitist, racist people is beyond me.


  64. tubalkain said on January 21st, 2009 at 3:40am #

    Hamas, and Palestinians in general, and Arabs for that matter, do have a PR problem. Or as they say these days, their perception management skills suck. It’s not all because of Jewish controlled media, they do need better spin doctors.

    As for who’s right in this conflict, it’s funny to observe how people from either side are surprised when the other side fails to agree with them. Perhaps there is no objective reality, just perceptions, personal reality tunnels, and this conflict seems to be too complicated and multifaceted to reduce it to a good guys bad guys scenario.

    Having said that, coming from the Balkans, during the Yugoslav wars we were always amazed us how the outsiders don’t see the Serbians are to blame for the mess. They were, both their leaders and as a nation deluded in a “god’s chosen people ” mindset. They started the war as wars are invariably started by those with military dominance. but as the wars progressed all sides committed war crimes, as seems to be the case in every war. Seems like some basic tribal instinct is awakened in times of war, or nationalistic/religious fervor.

    Of course IDF is a war crime machine, but neither Hamas nor Fatah aren’t doing Palestinians any favors. Corruption and personal gain is the name of the game.

    One thing I don’t get though, just what kind of halfass rockets is the Hamas firing that only managed to kill 4 people in months of launches. Must be some home-made plumbing pipe + nails things, hardly a major threat to Israel, but where’s the real rockets? The kind Hezbies had in 2006, that was a good conflict.

  65. giorgio said on January 21st, 2009 at 4:40am #

    It may do you some good to invest more time studying the Holocaust.”

    Why the hell should I study the holocaust? and you even call it an investment? A Bernie Madoff one, you mean?

    This reminds me of the story of a guy travelling in his car on the high road and suddenly comes up to a major car pile up in front of him. He stops and gets out hoping to render some help to anyone out of that carnage and twisted metal…then out of nowhere, a bearded guy with black hat and curly locks flowing down his temples approaches him and says:

    If you really want to see a major car accident, UNIQUE in the WORLD, you will just have to travel back approx. 60 miles on this road and you will see it. I guarantee you, it’s just horrific!
    See the analogy?

    “There is no business like terror business!”
    You said it, mate!
    Likewise: “There is no business like shoah business!”
    And this is not mine, but a quip right from the horse’s mouth, former Israeli foreign minister Abba Eban.

    Gideon, please, WAKE UP and GROW UP!!!

  66. Hue Longer said on January 21st, 2009 at 4:55am #


    You may be relatively clever but you’ve allowed that to delude you into believing others are unintelligent or uneducated. You are bluffing but assuming everyone else is as well. Your snickering has no end beyond itself and that includes any adopted role as propagandist for Israel–In short, you are putting your ego in front of any concern you have for your cause…Is there someone in your camp who loves Israel more than themselves with whom we can have intelligent debate?

  67. mary said on January 21st, 2009 at 5:19am #

    Jennifer – The words ‘holocaust’ in one language and Vilnai’s ‘shoah’ in another are one and the same.


  68. Neil Spire said on January 21st, 2009 at 8:08am #

    Is no one going to stand up to the villification of the Jews on this site? The out-and-out racism here is overwhelming! How dare you advocate on behalf of any people when you tolerate the hatred of any people! This is a “dissident voice”? This is the same bigotry you get from skinhead racists. You people are beyond sick. If you want to make the case for the protection and even the justice of the Palestinian plight, you’re entitled. But to allow this kind of diabolical poison against the entire Jewish people is just garbage. I had a great Jewish teacher in high school. I have Jewish colleagues at work. Cut out the prejudice and racism and grow up. Take a leaf from Obama.

  69. Neil Spire said on January 21st, 2009 at 8:12am #

    … and to the idiots who pass themselves off as knowing anything, don’t give me that “Israel plant” crap. Nobody sent me to this asshole-for-brains site and I don’t represent any government, religion, race, faction, district, club, chess team or lamasse clas. It’s just me so if you can’t debate my points, you would do better shutting up than just making baseless accusations.

  70. giorgio said on January 21st, 2009 at 8:27am #

    “God, are the Israeli plants still here? I told them to go away. They’re like a bad smell, aren’t they?”

    Let them come! Let them come in droves, David, and invade DV like they’ve done Gaza…we’ll be waiting for them and lob over them some of our homemade missiles…their arguments are so weak and repetitive…poor guys they don’t have a leg to stand on…

    I’m really beginning to feel REAL sorry for this lot…they lavish so much of their dough on these gentiles/goyms in a frantic attempt to buy their loyalty and silence…they bought the US Congress, the present US government, the new prez-elect Obama, the rest of the Western World and yet they still get this ‘anti-semitic’ back chat from these DV posters…

    Shylock must be horrified that so much of his “hard earned money” is being squandered on these ungrateful goyms….

    By the way, did you guys notice, as Obama pronounced the oath of allegiance , the sparkling ‘Stars of David’ in his glinting eyes?

  71. Tree said on January 21st, 2009 at 8:41am #

    Israel is under threat.
    That doesn’t excuse what Israel has done to the people of Palestine. Israel is an occupier and a brutal one at that.
    One can support Palestinians and not hate all Jews.
    Throughout history, whenever things get tough, people blame the Jews. It’s idiotic, really and only shows the cowardice of humanity in general.
    People hate because they are weak and afraid. Hating Jews and Israel will not solve anything or even save one Gazan’s life. Denying the Holocaust is not only ignorant but doesn’t alter the truth of history, either.
    No opinion expressed here changes anything, least of all the truth.

  72. Jennifer said on January 21st, 2009 at 8:53am #

    It took me two minutes to look up, and cross reference the information in that article. Just as I called what the Japanese did (look up Nanking or Nanjing) a holocaust, the Nazi atrocities are called the Holocaust. When the word holocaust is mentioned most people think of the Jews and Nazis, or at least that is my experience. The Israeli government has made the same distinction. From what I can gather, not having been there, Israel made it very clear that they were coming in if the rockets didn’t stop. Personally, I think Israel was justified in making some sort of effort if only to find Gilad Schalit. Who knows what is being done to him.

    I am not trying to be “clever”. I am presenting facts… objective, real life, information that is not personally attacking anyone. Would you care to answer even one question or issue brought up by myself or the other “dissenters” from this conversation?

    When I was a pacifist I didn’t believe that “liberals” called people names and resorted to personal slander like the “conservatives” said. When I watched Obama, during the third debate, reject the offer to end the negative ads, I realized he liked running negative ads. Now I see that it is true, there is very little substance here, but plenty of attempts to belittle.

    Thank you to those who operate Dissident Voice, for being fair in allowing opposing opinions, this has been educational.

  73. giorgio said on January 21st, 2009 at 8:54am #

    Neil Spire,
    “It’s just me so if you can’t debate my points”….

    So you ” had a great Jewish teacher in high school, have Jewish colleagues at work….”

    So what? Does that justify turning a blind eye to atrocities in Gaza? You, it seems, are in dire need to GROW UP!!!

  74. Gideon said on January 21st, 2009 at 9:08am #


  75. Just Gimme Some Truth said on January 21st, 2009 at 9:14am #

    Jennifer. Israel broke the ceasefire. Why this obssesion with Gilat Schalit? Thousands of Palestinians rot in Israeli prison’s whilst dozens of children died in the Israeli blitz. I am sure that many of us who post on this site, find the lack of humanity you show, quite disturbing. Your values are completely skewed.

  76. giorgio said on January 21st, 2009 at 9:42am #


    “When I was a pacifist…” so you were a pacifist?
    So what are you now? A warmonger? No offense intended…and what made you change from one extreme to the other, may I ask? Should be interesting reading….

  77. bozh said on January 21st, 2009 at 9:44am #

    all thieves are forever under threat or two threats: internal, from own nervous system and external, from people who were robbed.
    ‘jews’ are rightfully scared as can be seen from their, mainly, trivia pursuit.
    as a wise person said, ‘God’ may forgive your sins but your nervous sytem won’t. thnx

  78. Neil Spire said on January 21st, 2009 at 9:52am #

    you wrote, “So you had a great Jewish teacher in high school, have Jewish colleagues at work….”
    So what? Does that justify turning a blind eye to atrocities in Gaza? You, it seems, are in dire need to GROW UP!!!”

    My point – if you can just keep your fuming selfrighteousness in control for a minute – is that this site is full of antisemitic charges. You’re ranting not just against Israel but against jews in general. First of all, you’re wrong. Second of all, if its OK to denounce an entire people, then you’re justifying the Israelis in denouncing all Palestinians. get it? Prejudice is prejudice.

    “Atrocities in Gaza” – hey, remind me of how loud your outcry was when Palestinians blew up a discotheque, a pizza parlor and all those buses. Yeah, that loud.

  79. Andrew F said on January 21st, 2009 at 10:05am #

    I’m alarmed that some of us find this plurality of opinion threatening – it may be propaganda, but that should make it easier than problematic to rebut and refute those points that we are convinced to be spurious, dishonest, inaccurate, fabricated, unfortunate and so on – so please, no calls for some to be excluded from commenting.

    Israel is fully aware that it doesn’t really ‘need’ to act in a multilateral manner, so long as it enjoys the unconditional support of the world’s superpower – this along with the enduring political implications of the Holocaust feeds Israel’s arrogance and arbitrariness. Israel responds to implorations for fairness, by arrogantly asserting that it ‘needs’ not. Superpowers know no limits other than their own conscience (in this context i.e., their own values, true essence, ideology and so on). In the case of Israel, when her conscience is distracted and confused by blindingly bright notions of historical victimhood/persecution, there is little scope for any equitable solution to be perceived as not prejudicing her survival, or to not be antithetical to jewishness per se. So, no matter how many perish (in excess of 1,300 Palestinians compared to 13 Israelis during the recent offensive on Gaza – source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7841999.stm ) Israel will not yield to accusations of disproportionality and dismiss these as irrelevant – she will insist that this is not about numbers, and that her critics do not get it. But in the final analysis it should be about numbers (as in, about human suffering and human misery which is best quantified by how many actually perish/suffer) rather than about mystico-ideological considerations.

    The moral high ground cannot be occupied by those who resort to treating individuals as means to their ends with blatant disregard to human dignity and by disregarding the issue of proportionality. It was Marx who said that those who occupy another people can never be free – and Israel should know this only too well as she is living with the realities of being the occupying force since her inception.

    I also consider it unfortunate that Gaza is being compared to the Nazi Holocaust – these are all separate historical events with their own distinct sets of facts and so on. And although the past contextualises the present, comparisons do not in any way amplify or deminish the severity and realness of the recent catastrophe on those affected. Let’s anatomise this according to all that is objectively material to it.

    Jennifer – I regret I haven’t any blog or webpage of my own – glad for your comments in this forum – that way we all benefit.

  80. bozh said on January 21st, 2009 at 10:55am #

    hey, folks! pay attention! Achtung, Achtung, bitte! my devil told me that prejudice is not prejudice, war is not war, lying is not lying, etcetcetc.
    then she explains to me. she said, A lie by a soldier in a tank is not a lie told by a resistance fighter armed with automatic rifle.
    prejudice by fourth strongest army is not prejudice by expelled/blockaded people.
    war waged by US/Israel is not war waged by hezbo nor pals.
    allah is not jahweh; and the devil of my own knows because s/he (or maybe it is ” it”) sits in their laps and can feel you know what?!

  81. Janet, USA said on January 21st, 2009 at 10:56am #

    Jennifer said: First of all, HAMAS is not Hamas. HAMAS is an acronym for “Harakat al Mawqawama al Islamiyya“, which translates to Islamic Resistance Movement.

    My response: Yes, and the U.S is not the U.S., it’s the United States of America—so what’s your point? We use acronyms for ease of communication. And if you had read through to the end of the article you would have seen the reference to the Islamic Resistance Movement. Most of your statements indicate that you either did not read the article, did not understand it because you have little or no background on the issue, or you are just content to mouth Israeli talking points and misinformation.

    Jennifer said: Why do you defend the right of Muslims to seize and take over land by the sword, but not the right of Jews to have a homeland?

    My response: Again, did you actually read this article? There is no mention in the article of the right of anyone to “seize and take over land by the sword”—even though that is exactly what Israel has done.

    Jennifer said: Israel should not allow anybody who does not wish to be Israeli, live in Israel. They should not have agreed to slice the land and should have taken over completely in 1948.

    My response: This is a blatant colonialist position. The land you’re referring to was not Israel’s to “slice” or “take over”—that’s actually the root of the problem. And Israel actually does not give the same rights to non-Jews in Israel. As for the occupied territories, well the world is now accurately referring to it as apartheid.

    Jennifer said: Gaza is occupied by land that Israel should have kept.

    My response: Really? Annexing or building settlements on occupied territory is a violation of international law. Clearly, neither you nor Israel seems to be bothered by this, but the rest of the world justifiably is.

    Jennifer said: Are you suggesting they allow suicide bombers to blow up more buses and restaurants? Really? Wow. They should receive MORE shipments from Iran, who just had 70,000 university students petition Ahmedi. to train for suicide missions? They should allow helicopters to drop shipments?

    My response: Israel created a state of war by its illegal military occupation and its siege of Gaza. Closing the checkpoints and ports and not allowing in food and medicine is another violation of international law—it’s called collective punishment. Again, either Israel is part of the civilized world community and abides by international law, or it is recognized as a rogue state committed to state terrorism. There would never have been a resistance movement if there had been nothing to resist—the occupation is the root of the problem. Palestinians have been willing to ignore the blatant inequality of the 1948 boundaries and the land, homes and villages stolen by Israel at that time. They simply ask for a return to the 1967 boundaries.

    Jennifer said: In 2000, Israel agreed to recede to it’s pre ‘67 borders, and have a Two State solution, but HAMAS did not agree and instead began operations again.

    My response: Your history is pathetic. Israeli and Palestinian negotiators came very close to an acceptable agreement at the Taba (January 2001) talks, which were held after Clinton’s Camp David talks in July 2000. But Ehud Barak apparently felt it was too close, and ordered his negotiators to break off the talks. See: http://www.nahost-politik.de/friedensbewegung/camp-david-barak.htm

    Hamas was not a major player at the time, since Arafat was involved in the talks, so saying that “HAMAS did not agree” is ludicrous. Even when the second Intifada broke out in Sept. 2000, Hamas was only one group among many other Palestinian political and armed groups to participate.

    The article states that: “In Gaza, numerous accounts of Israel targeting civilians have been reported by the UN, human rights organizations,”
    and you responded: Document these. It is not true. I’ve researched this and if you do too, you will find that the UN is not interested in human rights. In fact, a Jew, by the name of Hillel Neuer from UN Watch, is one of the few who are actually trying to hold the UN accountable. Watch the videos for yourself. Watch C-Span. The UN on Darfur is sickening.

    My response: Well, your “research” is also pathetic. The war crimes accusations are just beginning. Israel has already admitted that Hamas did not fire from the UN building that the IDF bombed, killing more than 40 people, and today the IDF admitted that it might have used white phospherous against civilians. So, you can defend Israel’s war crimes as much as you like, but the IDF won’t back you.

    The article states: “Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position,” and you said,
    Well, let’s see. Let’s use reason. If Israeli soldiers are using civilian homes, that tells us the HAMAS soldiers are taking the fight into civilian areas.

    My response: In Gaza, there are only civilian areas. Gaza is one large refugee camp—refugees from land Israel stole in 1948. Hamas fighters do not live in “military barracks” or apart from the rest of the people. This is why Israel’s war, using F16s, white phospherous, and other weapons, is totally disproportionate (another war crime). The weapons Israel used were never intended for fighting in a refugee camp. Hospitals, police stations, UN buildings, universities, and schools are all civilian areas and whether or not Hamas people were hiding there, international law demands that they not be bombed. In most cases, it was determined that Israel lied and there was no gunfire from these structures.

  82. dino said on January 21st, 2009 at 10:59am #

    Jennifer said that she only presented facts.But to understand the facts, someone ,she and others Israeli’s propagandists claim,have to know “The Koran” and she added ,in Arabic.Until then we should believe Jennifer,Olmert,Shimon Peres,Barak ,Bush,Bernard Lewis,Pipes ,David Horowitz,all these reading The Koran every days and reacting properly and instructed the rest of humanity.
    BTW Islam replaced Communism as the enemy number one only in the last 10 years or less maybe after Huntington book “The clash…”.I will be amazed if someone will show an explanation of israelo-arab conflict in this basis before 1995.Late in 90 islamic fighters were called “martyrs of liberty” by Zbiegniew Brzezinsky.

  83. Neil Spire said on January 21st, 2009 at 3:44pm #

    Well, there’s alot of heat on this site; let’s see if we can add a little light.

    Andrew F: you wrote on Tuesday, “no one is suggesting the annihilation of Jews, nor is there any suggestion that it is realistic to expect the Israeli state suddenly to be dismantled in order to create a more equitable (federal or otherwise) structure to serve all the peoples of the territories in question.”
    If only. The most common declaration in Europe, and obviously in the Arab world, is for the dismantling of Israel. Just google “one state solution” and you’ll get 5,000,000 hits. While the majority of commentators on this site pretend to be leftists, they are in fact Islamists or Islamic apologists and they are calling for an Islamic Palestine from river to sea.

    And as far as the call for the annhilation of Jews, I regret that you’re being equally naive: the Arab rhetoric since before the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 has always been “Death to the Jews” – a call that has also been made at every antiwar rally in the past three weeks.

    You ignore that the Jews are the people most subjected to calls for their destruction, even right on this blog.
    Since the start of 2007, 16,000 civilians have been killed in fighting. Not in Gaza, so you may have missed it. It was in Somalia, where an Islamist movement is fighting Ethiopian troops. This is the 18th year of civil strife in that country.
    In Sri Lanka, some 70,000 people have perished in a civil war that has flared on and off since 1983. The regime in Myanmar (formerly Burma) has killed thousands and forced an estimated 800,000 into involuntary servitude.
    In the Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly Zaire) 45,000 people are dying every month. Nearly 5 and a half million have died since 1998 in a conflict that grew out of the violence in Rwanda and spread. Half of those deaths were of children under the age of 5, according to the International Rescue Committee. The violence in the Democratic Republic of the Congo has caused more human devastation than any conflict since World War II.
    In Darfur, Sudan last week, the Sudanese began bombing Darfur again, while at the same time the Janjaweed have continued with their raping and pillaging. more than 200,000 people have been killed and 2.5 million made homeless by violence. Where’s the outcry? In the Democratic Republic of Congo people are being burned alive. In Zimbabwe, thousands have died because of government aided cholera and others of starvation. Where’s the outcry? Where’s the UN? Where’s the BBC?

    But to watch the news in Brussels or Boston and certainly in Islamabad or Caracas, you will get the distorted impression that the Palestinian plight is the worst on earth — an impression that is reinforced almost daily by the United Nations. We in the United States pay almost no attention to the resolutions, findings, and advocacy of the U.N., regarding it as stinking hypocrisy and cant. But the rest of the world does pay attention. According to Eye on the UN (www.eyeontheun.org), in 2008, 68 percent of General Assembly resolutions regarding violations of human rights targeted Israel. Afghanistan was cited in 4 percent of the resolutions along with Azerbaijan, Georgia, the United States and a few others.

    Russia, Sudan, China, and Saudi Arabia, just to name a few, were not cited at all.

    In 2007, 32 countries were mentioned for human rights violations, though most just barely. Israel once again topped the list with 121 actions taken against it. Sudan came in second with 61, Myanmar third with 41. (The U.S. was No. 4, with 39 actions, tied with the Democratic Republic of the Congo.)

    You wrote, “The moral high ground cannot be occupied by those who resort to treating individuals as means to their ends with blatant disregard to human dignity and by disregarding the issue of proportionality.” Israel has allowed in humanitarian aid, has set up field hospitals for Palestinians and allows the Red Cross visits to its prisoners.
    The Arab world and the Palestinians call for the total destruction of the Jews; they do this vocally, frequnetly and publicly, so I have to challenge your claim. Proportionality works when dealing with a rational enemy but Israelis are dealing with a religious, not a nationalistic force in Hamas, whose goal is not the preservation of Palestinian children, despite their rhetoric, so much as the elimination of Israel from what they insist is Islamic holy ground.This is a Holy War for them. Look at the Hamas declaration just yesterday: Abu Obeida of Hamas told Al-Jazeera, “Our capacity to launch rockets hasn’t been diminished, and we will launch more rockets with God’s help.” (Note the invocation of God, by the way. Not “peace with God’s help.”)

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, All Israel wants is to stop Hamas’ attacks the only way it can: by eliminating the terrorists and destroying their arsenals. Hamas is not a political organization with which agreements can be reached, but a fanatical religious assembly of zealots intent on wiping Israel off the map. To achieve this objective, its members are even willing to turn their own children into human bombs, just to kill the hated Jews.

    Sorry to go on so long but one more thought on “proportionality”: What would a proportionate response look like? From the time Israel withdrew from Gaza, Hamas and terror affiliates launched eight thousand missiles into Israeli civilian areas. If Israel had returned equivalent fire each time, would that have been proportionate, or a war crime? If Israel had tried to bomb the Egyptian border to close the smuggling tunnels, would that have been proportionate, or inhumane?
    For those who find fault with Israel, the only proportionate response to terror is for Israel to disappear.

  84. Neil Spire said on January 21st, 2009 at 3:56pm #

    And now, this is for Janet, who wrote,
    “Israel actually does not give the same rights to non-Jews in Israel. Israel created a state of war by its illegal military occupation and its siege of Gaza. Closing the checkpoints and ports and not allowing in food and medicine is another violation of international law—it’s called collective punishment.
    … There would never have been a resistance movement if there had been nothing to resist—the occupation is the root of the problem.”

    The occupaThere is a woman who has been attacked by her ex-husband five times. She is a strong woman and has resisted those attacks. But now the courts are arguing that since she can fight off her attacker, she should remove the restraining order and unlock her door.

    The closing of the checkpoints is a result of Palestinian mortar and rocket attacks after Israel left Gaza three years ago. Israel left working farms, greenhouses and facrtories for the Palestinians. The Gazans trashed those and proceeded to fire against the Israelis. A closed border was Israel’s response to terrorism, not its motive.

    The occupation is NOT the root of the problem. The root of the problem is the Islamic demand that no dhimmi (non-Moslem) have any rights to legal protection or property. The root problem involves the Palestinian unwillingness to recognize the right of the Jewish people to have a state.

    Bethlehem used to have about 140 churches and five mosques – that number is now 55 churches and 75 mosques. The Christian population was reduced from a 60% majority in 1990 to a 20% minority in 2001 to 23,000. Before 1995, Bethlehem had a majority-Christian municipal council. After the PA take-over, Arafat replaced the municipal council with a predominately Muslim council. Today Christians have virtually no political power in Bethlehem.

    There is one fundamental issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and that is the steadfast unwillingness of Islamic fundamentalists to tolerate a non-Muslim state in their midst. From this one issue all else flows, including all the wars and terrorist campaigns preceding the current Gaza battle.

  85. Suthiano said on January 21st, 2009 at 4:12pm #

    Zionist Spire,

    How did Israel come into existence (did the UN perhaps play a big role in giving Israel legitimacy)? And on what precedent can it be argued that the creation of the state was lawful or justifiable (The Balfour Declaration, a document drafted by an empire at the peak of it’s colonialist endeavors)?

    You go around citing eyeontheun as if it’s anything other than a zionist propaganda website. Why don’t you mention that the UN also loved to pass resolutions against South Africa… Or was that part of the Islamic anti-semite conspiracy to undermine the “west” as well?

    You’re bogus arguments will not distract from the concrete reality at issue. The rubble will have to be cleared, and the homes rebuilt. 1.5 million people’s lives have been changed for the worse. No more bullshit about how Israeli’s care about the Palestinians… Israel tears up olive trees, diverts water, and uses Palestinian land as garbage dumps, and an industrial zone. Along with this, their use of depleted uranium has scarred the land permanently.

    Perhaps Israel’s delegate to the UN should draft some resolutions on the conflicts you mention. Or perhaps many of the conflicts have been created by people with zionist-like mentalities?

  86. Shabnam said on January 21st, 2009 at 4:17pm #

    Today even John J. Mearsheimer who wrote ‘Israeli lobby’, a very conservative point of view, attacks Israel and believes ISRAEL NEVER WAS INTERESTED IN PEACE. Israel is interested in stealing ALL of Palestine to have a foot in the region and then to follow its EXPANSIONIST policy to establish ‘greater Israel’, using divides and rule. The latest Chomsky’s paper confirms the same point. In the other


    word today, majority of literate world population are familiar with
    Israel’s lies and deception, therefore, people believe Zionism must be destroyed completely today because tomorrow is too late. No one buys Israel’s game which intends to manipulate world opinion to bring about ‘world government’ protocol of zion style since Zionism has been exposed and its veil has been removed. The Zionist agents have to find another site because this site is familiar with all of the zionist’s tricks, lies and deception and it is not going to change even one’s fu**ing opinion, therefore, they are wasting their time and energy. Israel has no right to exist. United Palestine for all where includes Jews, except the colonists, European and American.

  87. bozh said on January 21st, 2009 at 4:26pm #

    as i said, for defenders of israel’s crimes, there is not much left to say but go on trivial pursuit.
    they ignore the torns in their eyes and focus on mote in other people’s eyes.
    it seems that all cultures have noted this panhuman trait. most cults can’t tolerate any other cults. christian cult wants to end judaism; judaism wants to end islam, etcetc.
    so we will have an eterne divisiveness, accrimony, bitterness, wars, murder, etc.
    and about what? about ideas, guesses, and specters, etc.
    meanwhile, some people haven’t yet noted that there is only one specie of humans; there is no sub- or suprahumans; there is no right nor wrong; things just are.
    israelis have power +cult=murder; uslims get power +cult= murder.
    and we can do less evil. but with present structure of governance of the evil empires, we can expect more hell. thnx

  88. mary said on January 21st, 2009 at 5:22pm #

    Cinéma vérité. I thank Channel 4’s reporter Jonathan Miller for giving us the bare truth tonight. From reports we knew that the human and material destruction was very bad, but the latter is much worse than I had imagined. Of course, up to 60 thermobaric bombs/missiles per night over 22 days were bound to have done so much damage. We heard on good authority that there has been bombing in the north today.


  89. giorgio said on January 21st, 2009 at 5:38pm #

    Neil Spire,

    ” “Atrocities in Gaza” – hey, remind me of how loud your outcry was when Palestinians blew up a discotheque, a pizza parlor and all those buses. Yeah, that loud.”

    So a “discotheque, a pizza parlor and all those buses….” Oh, really Neil, and how many Jews died in such a ‘horrific’ blitz? 300? 1300?
    How many Israeli houses, neighbourhoods and villages were bombed to rubble by Palestinians in the last 10 years?

    “You’re ranting not just against Israel but against jews in general.”
    Oh, Yea? This is the standard stock reaction of those who can’t handle specifics, because these are too painful to contemplate.

    What I ‘rant’ about is not ‘against jews in general’, but STUPIDITY and BRUTALITY in general…

    Like you, I have had Jewish teachers and friends I greatly admired…
    In fact, my schooling was at a Marist Brothers’ College where quite a significant number of pupils were Jewish. Of course, they attended this educational institution not because of a desire to get acquainted with Catholicism or get closer to, or rub shoulders with another Jew, Jesus Christ. They attended it simply because of the excellence of education provided there. For this, they were willing to pay the high fees, which they could easily afford because most of them were the children of businessmen, doctors, lawyers, etc.

    Presently, too, there are many Jews I greatly admire, Jews who have the guts and ‘balls’ to expose the Israeli government for what it really is: a cabal of Zio-Nazis, who like their former counterparts in Nuremberg should be, today, standing trial for murder.

    One Jew, in particular, I would like to mention here. A man, who in his relentless fight for TRUTH and JUSTICE, was not long ago fired from his teaching post at Catholic DePaul University as a result of a vicious Zionist campaign, lead by Alan Dershowitz, of Dream Team notoriety, and shamelessly rubber stamped by Pope Ben Ratz XVI…

    This man is none other than Professor Norman Finkelstein.
    So, dear man, if you don’t just carry SLUDGE between your ears, and pride in it, I would, for starters, strongly recommend you visit his site and get enlightened:


  90. giorgio said on January 22nd, 2009 at 2:44am #

    “How many Israeli houses, neighbourhoods and villages were bombed to rubble by Palestinians in the last 10 years?”

    How much damage, did you say? What? I can’t hear you!
    Louder, please! So what was the damage they inflicted on the Israelis?
    Sorry, can’t hear! Louder! Louder! Louder, please!
    What damage was that, you say?
    Oh, damn it! I just can’t get your numbers! What did you say?
    Sorry, I give up! I just can’t get a word from you….

  91. mary said on January 22nd, 2009 at 3:19am #

    In case the link to Channel 4’s report expires, there is a You Tube version:-


    The protests are growing in the UK, especially on some University campuses including Kings College London, at SOAS and in many towns. There are also increasing calls for an academic and economic boycott of Israel.

    Following a large rally (approx 10,000) in Trafalgar Square last Saturday, a protest will be held outside the BBC this Saturday followed by a march to Downing Street. We will be giving the BBC (for their biased anti Palestinian reporting) and PM Gordon Brown (for his craven kowtowing to Olmert’s criminal gang) the ‘order of the old shoe’ if not the boot.

  92. Steve said on January 22nd, 2009 at 6:47am #

    It is important to point out that the siege on Gaza began in 2001, not 2005.

  93. giorgio said on January 22nd, 2009 at 7:09am #

    Mary, once again, thank you for that You Tube video.

    The Horror of all this stuns me. The commentator’s revelation that Israeli tanks rolled over a cemetery destroying many Palestinian graves is an apt reflection of Israeli’s mindset.

    Israel Shahak, author of the book “Jewish History, Jewish Religion…” states (pp. 23-4) that “Jewish children are actually taught” to utter a ritual curse when passing a non-Jewish cemetery…So these Israeli tanks while driving over these graves did some very impressive cursing of their own…