9/11 Mind Swell

As we approach the eighth anniversary of 9/11 consider this paradox. In the post 9-11 years the scientific evidence for disbelieving the official government story has mounted incredibly. And the number of highly respected and credentialed professionals challenging the official story has similarly expanded. Yet, to the considerable disappointment of the international 9/11 truth movement, the objective fact is that there are no widespread, loud demands for a new government-backed 9/11 investigation. The 9/11 truth movement is the epitome of a marginalized movement, one that never goes away despite not achieving truly meaningful results, which in this case means replacing official lies with official truth. What has gone wrong?

Akin to the definition of insanity, the hallmark of entrenched but marginalized movements is that they continue to pursue exactly the same strategy and tactics that have failed to produce solid results. They indulge themselves with self-delusion, defensive thinking and acting as if the world at large must surely and finally wake up, see the light and embrace the Truth. Years and, potentially, decades go by, but this quixotic status quo remains embedded, as if set in intellectual concrete. There is no brain tumor to blame. Nor any mass hypnosis of true believers to prove. There is just monumental disinterest among the dominant culture, political establishment and the broad public that is far more engaged with other issues, problems and movements.

The 9/11 truth movement, at best, gets meager public attention when it is derided and insulted, used as an example of persistent conspiratorial insanity.

Make no mistake; I concluded a few years back, after using my professional engineering and materials science background to study the evidence, that the official government story is a lie. As a former full professor of engineering, I firmly believe that elements of the US government were involved with contributing to (not just allowing) the 9/11 tragedy, but that does not necessarily eliminate the role of those terrorists publicly blamed for the events. Science, logic, evidence and critical thinking told me this.

Who should we blame for the failure of the 9/11 truth movement to fix the historical record and, better yet, identify those in the government who turned 9/11 into an excuse for going to war, getting them indicted, prosecuted, and punished for their murderous acts?

It is too easy to blame the mainstream media and political establishment for refusing to demand and pursue a truly comprehensive and credible independent scientific and engineering investigation. President Obama with his tenacious belief in looking forward, not backward, exemplifies a national mindset to avoid the painful search for truth and justice that could produce still more public disillusionment with government and feed the belief that American democracy is weak at best, and delusional at worst.

Marginalized movements always face competition for public attention. There are always countless national issues and problems that feed new movements and distract the public. There have been many since 9/11, not the least of which was the last presidential campaign and then the painful economic recession, and now the right wing attacks on health care reform. The 9/11 truth movement illustrates a total failure to compete successfully with other events and movements.

This can be explained in several ways. The 9/11 movement has not been able to articulate enough benefits to the public from disbelieving the official government story and pursuing a new investigation. What might ordinary Americans gain? Would proof-positive of government involvement make them feel better, more secure, and more patriotic? Apparently not. In fact, just the opposite. By its very nature, the 9/11 issue threatens many things by discovering the truth: still less confidence in the US political system, government and public officials. Still more reason to ponder the incredible loss of life and national wealth in pursuing the Iraq war. In other words, revealing 9/11 truth offers the specter of a huge national bummer. Conversely, it would show the world that American democracy has integrity.

The second explanation for failure is that the truth movement itself is greatly to blame. It has been filled with nerdish, ego-centric and self-serving activists (often most interested in pushing their pet theory) unable to pursue strategies designed to face and overcome ugly, challenging realities. The truth movement became a cottage industry providing income and meaning for many individuals and groups feeding the committed with endless websites, public talks, videos, books and paraphernalia. They habitually preach to the choir. Applause substitutes for solid results. In particular, it embraces the simplistic (and obviously ineffective) belief that by revealing technical, scientific and engineering facts and evidence the public and political establishment would be compelled to see the light. Darkness has prevailed.

Proof of this are the views expressed days ago on the truth movement by Ben Cohen on the Huffington Post: “I have done some research on the topic, but stopped fairly quickly into when it dawned on me that: 1. Any alternative to the official account of what happened is so absurd it simply cannot be true. 2. No reputable scientific journal has ever taken any of the ‘science’ of the conspiracy seriously. 3. The evidence supporting the official story is overwhelming, whereas the 9/11 Truthers have yet to produce a shred of concrete evidence that members of the U.S. government planned the attacks in New York and Washington.” Similarly, in the London Times James Bone recently said a “gruesome assortment of conspiracy theorists insists that the attacks on the US of September 11, 2001 were an inside job. It is easy to mock this deluded gang of ageing hippies, anarchists and anti-Semites.” Truthers continue to face a very steep uphill battle.

A common lie about the truth movement is that there have been no credible scientific articles in peer reviewed journals supporting it. But those opposing the truth movement will and do find ways to attack whatever scientific evidence is produced and published. It takes more than good science and facts for the movement to succeed.

Besides the movement having too many genuine crackpots (possibly trying to subvert it), a larger problem is what has been missing from it: effective political strategies. Besides pushing scientific results and more credible supporters, it did nothing successful to make a new 9/11 investigation a visible issue in the last presidential campaign. It did nothing effective to put pressure on a new, Democrat controlled congress to consider legislation providing the authorization and funding for a new, credible investigation. It seems that people who want to blame the government are often unable to also see the political path forward that requires the government to fund a new investigation.

To its credit, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth does have a petition aimed at Congress, demanding a new investigation, but has fewer than 5,000 signers. The petition effort in New York City to get a new investigation is commendable, with just under 75,000 signers, but national action is needed. Pragmatically, both efforts are unimpressive compared to other campaigns seeking political action. To get both media attention and political support the movement needs a hundred times more documented supporters, willing to do a lot more than sign a petition.

The tenth anniversary of 9/11 will come fast. The opportunity is making 9/11 an issue in the 2012 presidential campaign. The least delusional and defensive in the truth movement should think deeply and seriously on what needs to change to accomplish the prime goal: having an official investigation that compels most people and history to accept the truth, no matter how painful it is, including the possibility that it finds no compelling evidence for government involvement.

Joel S. Hirschhorn has a book, Delusional Democracy: Fixing the Republic Without Overthrowing the Government, which supports constitutional conventions and other peaceful ways to restore American democracy. Read other articles by Joel, or visit Joel's website.

72 comments on this article so far ...

Comments RSS feed

  1. simuvac said on August 11th, 2009 at 12:24pm #

    You are correct on many counts, Dr. Hirschhorn, but I feel like there is no good reason 9/11 Truth failed, at least not a single reason that can be pinned on the movement itself. Consider the opposition. 9/11 was immediately affiliated with hyperpatriotism by a criminal administration and long-standing war monger class. These people control trillions of dollars in wealth and have a multi-billion dollar propaganda machine to protect this wealth. What can a grassroots movement do against such opposition?

    Come to think of it, what can grassroots movements do on almost any meaningful issue these days? March around with signs? Make documentaries? Write letters to Congress? Sign petitions?

    The system is so thoroughly controlled by consolidated wealth it is difficult to imagine anything opposing it on a substantial issue. It feels like we are all waiting for the system to implode, to destroy itself, because we can’t destroy it.

    In the meantime, we do what we can.

    Even if 70% of Americans agreed that 9/11 Was An Inside Job, like 70% of Americans believe in public health care, that would not ensure a fair investigation or trial of the real perpetrators. And on the other hand, all it takes is 30% of the population, as long as they are fanatical enough, to drive an entire country into fascism.

    Public opinion is a funny thing. These days it has become almost totally irrelevant.

  2. Miles said on August 11th, 2009 at 1:06pm #

    If the government had a hand in matter (I think they did, likely the most prominent hand), then the same government would/does have a hand in not uncovering that truth. Appeals to congress or to any presidential campaigns would then never be effective. The inherent moral of 9/11 is that democracy has been dead in this country for long enough to allow the worst.

    You can’t fight evil empires with ballots.

  3. Ike said on August 11th, 2009 at 2:54pm #

    “By its very nature, the 9/11 issue threatens many things by discovering the truth: still less confidence in the US political system, government and public officials. Still more reason to ponder the incredible loss of life and national wealth in pursuing the Iraq war. In other words, revealing 9/11 truth offers the specter of a huge national bummer.”

    Precisely! The perpetrators must have figured this is out . . . the phenomena is based on a notion called ‘The Big Lie’ theory!

  4. Jeff said on August 11th, 2009 at 4:35pm #

    Yes, this MAY be relegated to the pages of history, but remember, it is recorded in the annals of history. Moving on and keeping focussed would be prudent now. There has been a lot of energy wasted that which is now required to keep the vigilance.

  5. Annie Ladysmith said on August 11th, 2009 at 6:12pm #

    Is this not truth absolute of how completely powerless the citizens of the United States have become, when with glaring and mounting evidence to the contrary we, the people, get the government snow-job crammed down our gullets? Our cries of foul-play are completely and purposely ignored by the highest offices of the state.

    I’d like to state that i agree with you, and the evidence, that the US gov. was a big player in the 9/11 act of treachery and treason.
    For the record i’d like to add that we never went to the moon, another snow-job and that the massmurder of men women and children at the Waco, Texas religious compound has never been trully investigated either as, again, we get the official version jammed down our throats in the light of powerfully damning evidence contrary to that version. It is trully beyond treason, it is full on acts of tyranny on innocent law-abiding citizens.
    And who even remembers what happened at Ruby Ridge or Waco???

  6. Coil Coyle said on August 11th, 2009 at 7:44pm #

    I support http://www.ae911truth.org
    I support http://www.nyccan.org

    I realize that we are marginalized.

    I’m not going to give up.

    $0.02
    Coil

  7. John Scrivener said on August 11th, 2009 at 8:47pm #

    “The second explanation for failure is that the truth movement itself is greatly to blame.” What a ridiculous proposition! Truth Movement! The term is a conceptual construct, a media catch phrase, an over simplification, it has no basis in reality. There is no such organisation.

    Likewise the government is not a single monolithic entity, it does not function as an integrated whole, it is fragmented, compartmentalized, encompassing a multitude of independent agencies and vested interests.
    If we discuss the subject using notions that have no basis in reality and words that are essentially meaningless, we contribute nothing of value.

    Government employs millions of people across a wide range of activities, from health and education to security and defense. If we say government is involved in funding schools, does that mean that everyone working for government is involved in funding schools? Too often this absurd notion is presented as an argument against government involvement in 9/11.

    The so-called “truth movement” is nothing more than a representation of the citizenry, a diverse, disorganized community of individuals who doubt the official 9/11 dogma. It is certainly not their role or responsibility to investigate the crime of 9/11, educate the masses or hold government accountable. They simply have the right to think and talk about the issues if they so choose. The people who want to suppress such thoughts and discussions are the ones with a problem, they are the ones who are “unable to pursue strategies designed to face and overcome ugly, challenging realities.”

    Honestly, to blame the so-called “truth movement” for any of the problems relating to 9/11 is absurd, insulting and intellectually bankrupt.

  8. Pete said on August 11th, 2009 at 8:54pm #

    I suggest Mr Hirschhorn look again at the “credible scientific articles in peer reviewed journals”. I have yet to find one that I would regard as either credible or good Science.

  9. Tom Poe said on August 11th, 2009 at 9:46pm #

    Two events occurred on 9/11. One event was the activities and devastation of the planes crashing into the Twin Towers. The other event was the announcement of the War on Terror. The first event demonstrated unequivocally that the second event needed to be supported without question. Should we now go back, examine the truth behind the first event, thereby shredding any truth attached to the second event? Would we find the same small group responsible for the first event to be the same small group that was behind the announcement of the second event? If so, what would that mean to the citizens of the world?

    Well, if nothing else, the President in office at the time the truth comes out, would be in a position of great power. On the other hand, any President in office during the truth-finding process, would be extremely compromised, for, as we know, without knowing, the War on Terror was conceived and carried out by many governments that ignored the truth, while participating in the aftermath of the announcement. Yes, the second event was horrendously greater in the harm it caused to the world, than the first event caused to our nation. My apologies to everyone involved in the loss of life of loved ones.

    For the rest of the world, we would have set history straight in the hopes that future generations might learn from this tragedy.

  10. russell olausen said on August 11th, 2009 at 10:07pm #

    Although you are all law abiding, disbelievers in the official story, you are hobbled by the fact you are not deputized and thats the catch-22. By the way, it is the same the world over.Badges? Badges. We don’t need no stinking badges.Ha Ha, oh yes you do.

  11. Lee Stone said on August 12th, 2009 at 1:10am #

    I have just one question. If the government was involved in 9/11, how would another government investigation reveal that fact? It seems to me that asking the government to investigate itself is like asking a corporation to regulate itself. It just won’t work.

  12. wazzamattaU said on August 12th, 2009 at 5:59am #

    The real culprits of 9/11 continue to be ignored:

    They’re the border authorities and policies which allowed killers into the USA on ‘student’ visas. For years. These ‘students’ were studying ways to kill us and disrupt our economy. The took flight lessons. They had lots of opportunities and help. Why were they here? Why did we need so many foreign ‘students’?

    We reacted with a ’9/11 fee’, and more thorough searches of Americans. We confiscated Grandma’s nail clippers. We still make no distinction between citizens and illegal visitors. The same thing could happen today, despite whatever color our ‘terrorism’ threat is
    shown as.

    Our borders are still porous; millions have sneaked in with no
    intention of assimilation, but to bilk what they can from us.

    You want security? Secure our borders. Speak English. Hire Americans.

  13. bob sweet said on August 12th, 2009 at 8:15am #

    I think it is important to remember–or to initially consider–that America is still a new country. Thus, we still have some bugs in our system of government. Had our democracy started with a clean, pure system, like most Americans assume, then we might know how to handle serious problems better. But our country did not get off to a very good start…if it did then why did we end up in so many wars and all those other things that went wrong over the last couple centuries? Our beloved America has been suffering from the crippling disease of “political corruption” since its inception…face it! That means neither the people or the corrupt politicians know how to correct real problems with real remedies because neither of us have the required experience. All our leaders know is how to cause problems–not a damned one of them has the courage to face the real problems, much less deal with them. And we the people don’t have a clue what to do because we never know what the facts are because there were (and still are) always too many lies to sort out, leaving everything in a persistently confused, unresolved state.

    I’ve read and watched all sorts of articles about the events of 9-11. So I am as “expert” as most other people with opinions. Speaking to others about it all, though, is a bit challenging, because the informataioan is really fragmented and multi-directional. The Illuminati is behind it all, or is it the lizard beings from outer space?…or maybe the rich Zionists?…or maybe Halliburton?…and all those evil faces of demons in the dust and smoke before the twin towers fell, that can only mean the devil is behind it…or…? So…besides having no experience with dealing with real, serious problems–especially on such an impossibly horrific scale as this one–the fact that many of us have to choose between numerous bizarre possibilities makes for a rather bizarre situation where things become too confused to make much sense, to anyone. This confusion is made worse because the only people investigating the horrible truths are a minority–the “truthers”–without any help from public agencies that could help, and they are hindered by ridicule and opposition at every turn. It turns out the “official” story about 9-11 is pure bullshit…all of it. But trying to find the facts is, for some very strange reason, much, much more difficult than peddling such a ridiculous farce to the public as the truth…?

    It is my contention there are only two facts to go on: one, the WTC buildings did not fall because of damage from planes and fire and the pentagon was not hit by a commercial plane, (I don’t know enough about flight 93 to claim as facts), and that means Arab Terrorists were not the only criminals involved–that the Bush Administration was the real criminal. And the other fact: nobody really knows the truth because we have all been lied to…the only thing we can rely on about our government is that it is the biggest liar in our country. Knowing these FACTS is more than enough reason to demand and even fight for a new investigation, also to fight a revolution if necessary. In fact, it would be unamerican to sit back and do nothing or think of ways to justify not doing anything. IT’S YOUR DUTY PEOPLE!

    Should we blame the media? You damned right we should. We could have dealt with this bullshit already if we had credible news sources. I can’t even watch television news anymore, and I gave up on newspapers entirely. If you or anyone cannot figure out that all news organizations are controlled by wealthy special interest people, then you or anyone are either lying or suffering from a mental disorder. There is nothing more obvious than deliberate media manipulation by unknown sources (the real conpiracy) that was designed to control the public. And if the system the masses rely on for the truth is corrupted, how are the masses going to learn the truth? This all means that, yes, it is easy to blame the media, because the goddamned media is guilty as sin.

    Do you readers know who Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan are? Both of these men challenged the official story about 9-11 because they felt it was their duty to do so, as Americans. Kevin Ryan was fired from his position as Engineer with Underwriters Laboratories. Doctor Steven Jones was placed on leave from his position as Phyics Professor with BYU. These men (and many others) thought the truth was more important than their jobs, and not just their jobs but careers. So I get bit outraged by the notion that some people in the truth movement are profitting from it. Instead of commenting on that observation, why not focus more on the real heroes? Also, when more than seven hundred architects and engineers sign on to AE911truth it isn’t about “only” that many signers. That group of heroes also decided to risk their jobs by signing. Geeeeez!…put your job on the line once and see what it feels like. And the point of having that many “professional” signatures means, without doubt, the official story is pure bullshit…so how about making that point instead of your pitiful intellectualization of trivial points.

    How dare anyone even think that exposing the truth about 9-11 might be the wrong thing to do, for this reason, that reason or the hundreds of other reasons, like the reasons yet to be written about so brilliantly? Finding excuses is the easiest “work” there is. The cowards and lazy people are real good at excuse-making, and there seems to be an abundance of both regarding the truth about 9-11. I have some important information for all you critical, serious thinkers out there: THERE IS NO OPTION HERE…period. The guilty must not be allowed to avoid or evade punishment…and it’s up to us to hold them accountable, by whatever means necessary.

    That last point is a tough point to accept but is also the most logical point of all. Face it, if our own government and the public media are involved in unconstitional or downright criminal behaviors, and if the public has been trying to get the attention of people to report the crimes and end up ignored, then the people MUST act on their own to make things right, by whatever means necessary.

    Look, just because the events of 9-11 seem so horrible does not mean you should figure out ways not to think about the possibility. And if you, like me and so many others, are convinced the official story is bullshit, then you do what a good American is supposed to do, which is try to do the right thing. It might seem unfair that we people need to clean up such a rotten, stinking mess. But then untold people gave their lives attempting to clean up the mess by Adolph Hitler and the other thousands of corrupt leaders throughout history. If we don’t, then we deserve whatever happens.

  14. As If said on August 12th, 2009 at 1:08pm #

    Now, if only the ASCE, the professional controlled demolition community, and say, the EUSJA would come up with one scientific study among them that concurs with all the ad hom rhetoric about the evil US gubment on this blog.

  15. Jake Smrekar said on August 12th, 2009 at 1:46pm #

    The main reasons why 9/11 truth movement was marginalized were:
    - no coherent narrative in the several years of development
    - asking questions, ignoring answers (and later claiming the questions were never answered)
    - no evidence to support any theories
    - no consistency in arguments
    - outright lies often paraded as truth years after they have been proven wrong
    - constant demands for funding, sales of overpriced merchandise, etc
    - no credible, concise criticism of the official story, the most that was done was to poke a few holes, which the official story was able to patch up for the most part, whereas no truth theory ever stood up to anything remotely resembling scrutiny

    Those, I believe, are the main reasons. There are also some others, like allying with known antisemites and holocaust deniers, members committing violent crimes, etc, but those could be interpreted as individuals with problems, rather than a problem with the movement.

  16. David Kyte said on August 12th, 2009 at 2:11pm #

    Lets face it, the 9/11 Truth scam is dead because it had nothing to stand on in the first place. Real engineers know why the towers fell, it was fire, pure and simple. Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth is nothing but third rate architects who have never designed anything over 2 stories! Not exactly the brightest and best in the industry, is it? And the general public know this.

    And it’s not like you see the brightest and best in the rest of the truther movement. Failed professors like Steven Jones, book hawking theologians like David Ray Griffin, and out and out crack pots like Judy Wood.

    Then you have the core backbone to the movement, 20 something kids who’s sit in moms basement watching YouTube videos, They chant the truther catch phrases like “Free Fall” “thermite” and “Pull-it” and none of them know what it means. DUDE! it was FREE FALL!! Have you really talked to these people? Not exactly the brain trust of America, fine examples of the deterioration of our educational system.

    You can judge a movement by it’s followers, and I am sorry but you never see bright well informed, scientifically literate truthers. It’s doomed to the scrap heap of history along with Flat Earthers, chemtrails in the sky, Grassy Knoll, Roswell UFO people and other tim foil hat donning kooks.

  17. Ike said on August 12th, 2009 at 2:22pm #

    #Pete said on August 11th, 2009 at 8:54pm #

    “I suggest Mr Hirschhorn look again at the “credible scientific articles in peer reviewed journals”. I have yet to find one that I would regard as either credible or good Science.”
    ———————–

    You certainly seem to be unaware of the article: “Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe” which you can find it here: http://www.gulli.com/img/2009/groundzero.pdf

    Perhaps, like NIST, you chose not to look properly!

  18. Ike said on August 12th, 2009 at 2:25pm #

    #Pete said on August 11th, 2009 at 8:54pm #

    “I suggest Mr Hirschhorn look again at the “credible scientific articles in peer reviewed journals”. I have yet to find one that I would regard as either credible or good Science.”
    ———————–

    You certainly seem to be unaware of the article: “Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe” which you can find here: http://www.gulli.com/img/2009/groundzero.pdf

    Perhaps, like NIST, you chose not to look properly!

  19. Brian Good said on August 12th, 2009 at 2:49pm #

    Dr. Hirschhorn makes the perceptive observation that the product truthers are “selling” is repulsive and frightening, and as an upside offers only the low-value restoration of democracy and media integrity.

    Another problem is that the movement has been saddled with discrediting elements. Dr. Kevin Barrett, for instance, has made repeated irrational, inflammatory, ignorant, or bigoted statements that make Truthers look bad.

    On July 24 he told a radio audience spanning half the country that German’s invasion of Poland was a greater crime than “toasting six million Jews”, claiming incorrectly that all of those executed at Nuremberg were executed for aggressive war.

    In fact several of those executed were found not guilty of aggressive war. When conflict avoidance behavior makes us allow ignorant bigots to represent us in the media, we are sabotaging ourselves.

  20. brian said on August 12th, 2009 at 3:57pm #

    ‘Dr. Kevin Barrett, for instance, has made repeated irrational, inflammatory, ignorant, or bigoted statements that make Truthers look bad.’

    repreated?
    such as? Isnt this statement bigoted and inflammatory?
    Germans invasion of poland is what set the nazis on the road to aushwitz/…so it is indeed worse…The word ‘toasting’ is insensitive…

  21. brian said on August 12th, 2009 at 4:01pm #

    david kyte:

    Go fly yours:

    ‘Failed professors like Steven Jones, book hawking theologians like David Ray Griffin, and out and out crack pots like Judy Wood.’

    Steven jones is no failed professor…Maybe youre just envious. Griffin is theologian and philosopher…

    (11Truth is alive and well….and has anew and funnier voice:

    http://www.911blogger.com/node/20841

  22. brian said on August 12th, 2009 at 4:03pm #

    Coil Coyle said on August 11th, 2009 at 7:44pm #

    I support http://www.ae911truth.org
    I support http://www.nyccan.org

    I realize that we are marginalized.
    ===============

    By the same people who brought us the invasion of iraq!

  23. Charlie said on August 12th, 2009 at 4:32pm #

    Ike said on August 12th, 2009 at 2:25pm

    You certainly seem to be unaware of the article: “Active Thermitic
    Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe” which you can find it here: http://www.gulli.com/img/2009/groundzero.pdf

    ———

    Nope, I’m sure Pete is well aware of the above. It’s a crock, just like everything else the 9/11 Truth Movement has produced.

  24. petgoat said on August 12th, 2009 at 4:46pm #

    The truth is that the 9/11 truth movement does not want a new investigation nor do they want to see anyone prosecuted for this crime. Otherwise, they would welcome the new independent investigation that has been conducted and they would get behind the legal case that has been underway for 2.5 years. Instead, they scoff at a new investigation and a court case holding criminals accountable.

    The only real Independent 9/11 Investigation done so far. Ignored by just about everyone, even though it’s been used to challenge NIST and start a fraud case. Here’s some links!

    HE Study: http://tinyurl.com/911hestudy

    Erin Study: http://tinyurl.com/911erinstudy

    The story of the cover up and muddle up of this independent 9/11 investigation (approx 300 pages) can be downloaded free here

    I hope enough people figure out what’s going on pretty soon.

    Evidence summary: http://tinyurl.com/911key
    Free or cheap DVDs of all this. http://tinyurl.com/911dvds

  25. Ike said on August 12th, 2009 at 4:59pm #

    David Kyte said on August 12th, 2009 at 2:11pm #

    Lets face it, the 9/11 Truth scam is dead because it had nothing to stand on in the first place. Real engineers know why the towers fell, it was fire, pure and simple.

    —————————–

    David , the video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgu20FsvXs0&feature=related is only 8 minutes long. Watch!

  26. Ike said on August 12th, 2009 at 5:00pm #

    David Kyte said on August 12th, 2009 at 2:11pm #

    Lets face it, the 9/11 Truth scam is dead because it had nothing to stand on in the first place. Real engineers know why the towers fell, it was fire, pure and simple.

    —————————–

    David ,

    The video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgu20FsvXs0&feature=related is only 8 minutes long.

    Watch it!

  27. mark said on August 12th, 2009 at 5:03pm #

    9/11 research is a rabbit-hole of Byzantine complexity full of snares and delusions and peopled with false friends, lunatics, earnest lost souls and a few heroes. It’s not necessary to understand all the nuances of science and bureaucracy that allowed the government to get away with mass murder, blame it on swarthy foreigners (of whom many are eager accomplices) and use the incident as (in the words of the Cheney, Jeb Bush et al cabal, the Project for a New American Century) “a new Pearl Harbor.” At this critical juncture in human history, it’s only necessary to understand why they did it. The motive was Peak Oil, a disaster which will affect everyone on the planet, about which all must enlighten themselves and for which all must prepare.
    – Jenna Orkin, World Trade Center Environmental Organization
    http://mikeruppert.blogspot.com/2007/05/epa-whistleblower-alleges-more-fraud.html

    ————————

    Crossing the Rubicon: Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney
    by Michael Kane
    http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtml

    Means – Dick Cheney and the Secret Service: Dick Cheney was running a completely separate chain of Command & Control via the Secret Service, assuring the paralysis of Air Force response on 9/11. The Secret Service has the technology to see the same radar screens the FAA sees in real time. They also have the legal authority and technological capability to take supreme command in cases of national emergency. Dick Cheney was the acting Commander in Chief on 9/11.

    Motive – Peak Oil: At some point between 2000 and 2007, world oil production reaches its peak; from that point on, every barrel of oil is going to be harder to find, more expensive to recover, and more valuable to those who recover and control it. Dick Cheney was well aware of the coming Peak Oil crisis at least as early as 1999, and 9/11 provided the pretext for the series of energy wars that Cheney stated, “will not end in our lifetime.”

    Opportunity – 9/11 War Games: The Air Force was running multiple war games on the morning of 9/11 simulating hijackings over the continental United States that included (at least) one “live-fly” exercise as well as simulations that placed “false blips” on FAA radar screens. These war games eerily mirrored the real events of 9/11 to the point of the Air Force running drills involving hijacked aircraft as the 9/11 plot actually unfolded. The war games & terror drills played a critical role in ensuring no Air Force fighter jocks – who had trained their entire lives for this moment – would be able to prevent the attacks from succeeding. These exercises were under Dick Cheney’s management.

    ————————

    http://www.septembereleventh.org/five_years_later.php
    9/11 Five Years Later: What Have We Accomplished?
    An Assessment of the 9/11 Truth Movement
    By Emanuel Sferios
    Monday, Sep 11, 2006

    …. One of the characteristics of 9/11 disinformation a lot of people have a hard time grasping is that much of it is designed specifically to convince people of US government complicity in 9/11. This might seem like a contradiction, until one understands that 9/11 disinfo is part of a broader system of mass manipulation where the opposing perspective plays an essential role. The basic idea is to control both sides of the debate, and frame it in a way that makes the opposing side ineffective (not necessarily unbelievable). In the end it doesn’t matter whether even a majority of the people believe the US government was complicit in 9/11 (this is already the case). What matters is only that the perpetrators can never successfully be prosecuted. Thus they pollute the body of evidence with red herrings and false lines of inquiry. If, in the process, they happen to cause some people to disbelieve the official story (as in the case with the “no plane at the Pentagon” hoax), all the better, because the end result is a weakening of any legal case that might be brought against them.

    There is an important quote by E. Martin Schotz from his book, History Will Not Absolve Us: Orwellian Control, Public Denial, and the Murder of President Kennedy. It is: “One of the primary means of immobilizing the American people politically today is to hold them in a state of confusion in which anything can be believed and nothing can be known.” Conspiracy theories, in other words, provide the perfect cover for real conspiracies. When anything can be believed because the available information is a convoluted mix of truth, falsehood and probability; when the actual truth itself is convoluted, involving deception, mystery and illusion; then one is ultimately left to their own emotions to decide. And emotions, of course, can be easily manipulated. What do you want to believe? After all, it’s up to you. You’ll never know the truth, or at least you’ll never be able to prove it in a court of law. Do you really want to be marginalized and ridiculed as a conspiracy theorist? You get the idea.

  28. mark said on August 12th, 2009 at 5:07pm #

    Jamey Hecht

    http://poetrypoliticscollapse.blogspot.com/2008/09/seeking-to-hire-ignorant-ghostwriter.html

    Beginning on the day of the attack, the 9/11 Truth Movement ran the same inevitable course repeated by domestic dissent and political critique so many times: formation, momentum, growth, penetration by unidentified representatives of the critiqued; disinformation campaigns; factionalization, and fizzle. It is always possible, however, to rebuild and extend the work of social repair that such movements represent. Apart from that utopian ambition, it’s inherently valuable just to make sense of the attacks and assassinations, the engineered coups des etats and the falsely triggered wars. That sense-making happens in paperback-and-podium argumentation pitched at various levels of sophistication for various audiences; it happens in documentaries; and it can happens in the arts. It cannot happen in the courts: published in September 2004, Mike Ruppert’s Crossing the Rubicon was a solidly documented, robustly argued legal case against Dick Cheney and others, constructed strictly around means, motive, and opportunity. Though it remains the 2nd or 3rd best-selling book on 9/11 after the Kean Report itself, Rubicon has been resolutely ignored by the mainstream media and gone unchallenged by any legal (or other) representative of those it accuses. The way to get media attention is to publish – wittingly or unwittingly – a true story mixed with a poison pill of disinformation.

    ———-

    Initially, and to the credit of its first generation of leadership, the truth in “9/11 Truth” referred to its absence from the official record, and the need for an independent accounting. (A recent echo of this is heard in the title of 9/11: Press for Truth.) Now, it means the Revealed Truths of the vying catechisms of “Inside Job”: almost exclusively demolition, missiles and TV fakery. So it isn’t enough anymore to say the Official Story is a lie, though it is, since the popular unofficial stories are as well. And perhaps told by the same storyteller.
    – Jeff Wells, “Grassroots Wisdom” Rigorous Intuition blog, 2007-09-14
    http://rigint.blogspot.com/2007/09/grassroots-wisdom.html

  29. petgoat said on August 12th, 2009 at 6:17pm #

    The “truth movement” has been quite successful at what it was set out to do. It’s job has been to suppress the truth and to marginalize anyone who presents the evidence. The last thing they want is accountability. Just look at the way they have marginalized Dr. Wood’s research and legal case. That speaks volumes. Dr. Wood lost her job when she began speaking out about 9/11. People near her have been murdered. She has no income, yet has used her life savings to pursue accountability for 9/11 in the legal system with NO help from the “truth movement””. With the exception of some help from a few friends, Dr. Wood has funded this all on her own with absolutely no help from the “truth movement.” What is wrong with this picture?

    I would like to know why Dr. Hirschhorn has not supported accountabilty for the crimes of 9/11.
    I would like to know why Dr. Hirschhorn has not supported independent research of the events of 9/11.
    I would like to know why Dr. Wood’s courageous challenge to the NIST report was not supported by Dr. Hirschhorn. Instead, Dr. Wood’s courageous challenge to the NIST report was scoffed at by all in “the truth movement”.

    Dr. Wood led the way, being the first to challenge NIST about the WTC towers. Steven Jones did not challenge NIST, but to apparently save face with the “truth movement,” he filed irrelevant issues with NIST to detract from what Dr. Wood had filed a month earlier. Why didn’t Steven Jones submit his so called “smoking gun evidence” of thermite to NIST? I’ll bet Dr. Hirschhorn knows it is a crime to defraud the government, which is why Steven Jones knew better than to submit fraudulent information in his RFC to NIST. Dr. Wood has filed a legal case against those who knowingly covered up the crimes of 9/11. This is a case that can be won, provided there is support for it.

    Is there any wonder why Dr. Hirschhorn does not support this case? Is there any wonder why Dr. Wood is so viciously attacked by the “truth movement”? Isn’t THAT what the “truth movement” was designed to do? The truth is that the 9/11 “truth movement” does not want a new investigation nor do they want to see anyone prosecuted for this crime.

  30. paul w said on August 12th, 2009 at 7:25pm #

    “the scientific evidence for disbelieving the official government story has mounted incredibly…yet, to the considerable disappointment of the international 9/11 truth movement, the objective fact is that there are no widespread, loud demands for a new government-backed 9/11 investigation”

    That’s because the first comment is wrong. It’s not scientific evidence, it’s flawed scientific evidence, hence the lack of public demand. If you get the science right, you’ll get the public and media support. Evidence is all. Ever heard of Watergate?

    “The 9/11 movement has not been able to articulate enough benefits to the public from disbelieving the official government story and pursuing a new investigation”

    No, it’s because it’s not proven anything. Evidence is all. Ever heard of Monica Lewisnky?

    “By its very nature, the 9/11 issue threatens many things by discovering the truth: still less confidence in the US political system, government and public officials”

    Yes, it would. But, as you haven’t discovered any ‘truth’, the comment is irrelevant.

    “It has been filled with nerdish, ego-centric and self-serving activists (often most interested in pushing their pet theory) unable to pursue strategies designed to face and overcome ugly, challenging realities.”

    No, the problem is the ‘movement’ hasn’t proven anything. The only ugly, challenging reality is for truthers: 9-11 was not an inside job.

    “The truth movement became a cottage industry providing income and meaning for many individuals and groups feeding the committed with endless websites, public talks, videos, books and paraphernalia.”

    As there was, and is, no decent public support, where else could they go, and what else could they do? To continue the ‘movement’ and their involvement, they HAD to feed on those already committed to the cause.

    “In particular, it embraces the simplistic (and obviously ineffective) belief that by revealing technical, scientific and engineering facts and evidence the public and political establishment would be compelled to see the light. Darkness has prevailed.”

    ‘Darkness prevailed’ because there was no light, and there was no light because there are no ‘facts’, whether technical, scientific or engineering.

    “No reputable scientific journal has ever taken any of the ’science’ of the conspiracy seriously.”

    Because the ‘science’ is simply not there. Nor have any truthers sent anything to a ‘reputable’ scientific journal (see below).

    “3. The evidence supporting the official story is overwhelming, whereas the 9/11 Truthers have yet to produce a shred of concrete evidence that members of the U.S. government planned the attacks in New York and Washington.”

    1. Number three is reality.
    2. In eight years, you have yet to offer any single piece of evidence against the claim, hence the ‘very steep uphill battle’. Accept it will continue, without relent.

    “A common lie about the truth movement is that there have been no credible scientific articles in peer reviewed journals supporting it.”

    It’s not a lie, it’s reality. The only ‘peer reviewed’ articles are those ‘peer reviewed’ by truthers (which is not peer-reviewing), or articles paid to be published (which is not peer-reviewing).

    “But those opposing the truth movement will and do find ways to attack whatever scientific evidence is produced and published.”

    And why do you think that is? Ever considered it may be because your ‘scientific evidence’ is flawed, and so badly flawed that it’s easy to debunk?

    “It takes more than good science and facts for the movement to succeed.”

    No, that’s ALL it needs. The ‘movement’ doesn’t have it. If it did, people would be asking for answers, and so would the press. You think the media would ignore hard evidence of an inside job? Evidence is all. Ever heard of the Pentagon Papers?

    “…a larger problem is what has been missing from it: effective political strategies.”

    No, the problem is, it doesn’t have the scientific facts, or any proof, of an inside job. If it had that, the rest would take care of itself. Evidence is all. Ever heard of the Iran-Contra Affair?

    “it did nothing successful to make a new 9/11 investigation a visible issue in the last presidential campaign. It did nothing effective to put pressure on a new, Democrat controlled congress to consider legislation providing the authorization and funding for a new, credible investigation. It seems that people who want to blame the government are often unable to also see the political path forward that requires the government to fund a new investigation.”

    No, the problem is, it doesn’t have the scientific facts, or any proof, of an inside job. If it had that, the rest would take care of itself. Evidence is all. Ever heard of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse?

    (ae911truth petition) “…but has fewer than 5,000 signers”.

    That’s because it doesn’t have the scientific facts.

    (New York Petition) “To get both media attention and political support the movement needs a hundred times more documented supporters, willing to do a lot more than sign a petition.”

    No, the problem is, it doesn’t have the scientific facts, or any proof, of an inside job. If it had that, the rest would take care of itself. Evidence is all. Ever heard of Savings and Loan?

    “The opportunity is making 9/11 an issue in the 2012 presidential campaign.”

    If you have the scientific facts, or any proof, of an inside job, the rest would take care of itself. Evidence is all. Ever heard of McCarthyism?

    “he least delusional and defensive in the truth movement should think deeply and seriously on what needs to change to accomplish the prime goal: having an official investigation that compels most people and history to accept the truth, no matter how painful it is, including the possibility that it finds no compelling evidence for government involvement.”

    Hang on….“including the possibility that it finds no compelling evidence for government involvement.” Do you mean TRUTHERS accepting there was no compelling evidence of government involvement, or the investigation finding an inside job, but no compelling evidence for government involvement?

    Personally, I think you got it right earlier: “They indulge themselves with self-delusion, defensive thinking and acting as if the world at large must surely and finally wake up, see the light and embrace the Truth.”

    Self-delusion. Bingo!

    PS Oh, and here’s a list of scandals the media didn’t miss…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_of_the_United_States
    …but it missed 9-11 was an inside job.

  31. David Kyte said on August 12th, 2009 at 10:11pm #

    David ,
    The video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgu20FsvXs0&feature=related is only 8 minutes long.
    Watch it!

    See what I mean, Truthers, Nothing but people of low intelligence getting info from YouTube. And they wonder why they are Americas #2 jokes, #1 being the birthers and health care opposing conservatives.

  32. Mulga Mumblebrain said on August 13th, 2009 at 1:28am #

    An example of how the powers that be can twist the facts with bare-faced audacity, knowing that the media sewer will not expose their lying malfeasance is playing out today. The Libyan patsy, al-Megrahi, framed for the Lockherbie bombing, is dying, and the Scottish authorities wish to release him. As everyone with any knowledge of this event knows, Libya was framed. It was known fairly quickly that a Syrian-based Palestinian group, acting for Iran, who wanted revenge for the deliberate doning by the USS Vincennes of an Iranian airbus with nearly 300 deaths, planted a bomb inside a radio with a drug mule who was being used by the US Drug Enforcement Agency, allegedly to capture drug associates in the US. This version was so well known and so widely accepted that it was published in UK papers and remained the official story until Syria and Iran’s compliance was required for the attack on Iraq in the first Gulf War, whereupon Libya was set up. The Western media with psychopathic ease, forgot all the old truths, no longer operational, and, without a moment’s hesitation turned on the new villains. Not one of the media scum who had published the earlier stories, or perhaps had read them or used them in hatemongering against Syria and Iran, raised a peep. That sort of moral imbecility is hard to feign. You have to be born to it, then be carefully selected and prove, day after day, that you are a total moral cipher, or else you will be dispensed with. And the apparatchiki of this evil system have the gall to call themselves the ‘Free Press’, and criticise journalists from other lands.
    When Libya surrendered the two patsies, they were subjected to a show trial with faked evidence, courtesy of the FBI and CIA, and then one of the alleged co-conspirators was found innocent, and the other guilty, a stupefying and insulting judgement. Observers decried the result as a sham. So what’s new. Libya paid a huge bribe to be rid of US sanctions, although it, naturally, never admitted responsibility for the crime. The relatives of the Lockherbie victims received huge sums, while the relatives of the Iranian victims of the Vincennes received nothing, after Iran rejected a deliberately insultingly low offer of compensation from the US.
    Every single day the machine of Western lying, hypocrisy, bullying, intimidation and injustice, that the global bosses have the unmitigated gall to call ‘justice’ grinds on. Send aid to the brutalised Gazans? Why its 65 years in the nick for you. Kill a Palestinian mother and her two children, in cold blood, for turning right instead of left as one of the Israeli Herrenvolk bark orders at her? A medal for you, young man, testimony to your ‘moral purity’. It’s enough to make you sick.

  33. Andrew Johnson said on August 13th, 2009 at 1:51am #

    Who here thinks there will be any real investigation into 9/11 by any recognized body.

    Dr Wood’s investigation is the most complete (and the most challenging) and a study of it will, when pondered, reveal why so many things in the world have been happening the way they have for so many years.

    http://www.drjudywood.com/wtc/

    The 911 “Truth” movement is another numbers game – a herding operation – and people need to look at the evidence rather than purely listening to those self-appointed figures who are suggesting they should only look in 1 or 2 directions (e.g. controlled demolition and “Bush and Cheney dunnit”)

  34. simuvac said on August 13th, 2009 at 10:19am #

    This comment thread is a good example of why the 9/11 Truth Movement doesn’t progress. I would be surprised if 1/4 of the comments here are from people without the goal of spreading disinformation. Every mention of Judy Wood, for example, is a sure sign of someone trying to disrupt the conversation. Every comment that makes bold declarations about the movement’s lack of credibility without substantiating these claims is the work of an obvious shill. Hirschhorn himself, I only learned recently, has supported Directed Energy Weapons nuttery, so even his apparent support for 9/11 Truth is contentious.

    The water around here is seriously muddied.

  35. Ike said on August 13th, 2009 at 11:19am #

    David Kyte said on August 12th, 2009 at 10:11pm #

    David ,
    The video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgu20FsvXs0&feature=related is only 8 minutes long.
    Watch it!

    See what I mean, Truthers, Nothing but people getting info from YouTube.
    ——————————-

    Presumably you do believe that a couple of small fires Bldg 7 brought down the steel-framed structure in less than 10 secs?! I ‘ve got news for you my friend: I am sure most people would agree that, between you and me, there is one and only one person of “low intelligence” — and that person is not me! Why don’t you gather some guts and face some ugly truths:

    Fact 1: Bldg 7 was deliberately brought down by controlled demolition. The lease holder, Larry Silverstein, admitted as much in a PBS interview: “I remember getting a call from the…er…fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, ‘We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.’ And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.” You can read more about this character here: http://crimesofzion.blogspot.com/2007/06/silverstein-and-911.html

    Fact 2: Given 1, the obvious question is: How did the Fire Dept (as Silverstein claims them to be the people who “pulled” Bldg 7) manage to place the hundreds of carefully placed explosives (that are required in planned demolition) in the general panic and confusion of Sept 11? The only answer to this is that the explosives were there before hand!

    I could go on, but I think this is enough to get you thinking (assuming you got a brain, that is!)

  36. Andrew Johnson said on August 13th, 2009 at 11:28am #

    >Every mention of Judy Wood, for example, is a sure sign of someone trying to disrupt the conversation.

    I see – so it’s the name of he person which stands out for you? How about discussing the actual evidence? Perhaps the inability to discuss evidence is what the 9/11 commission and much of the 9/11 truth movement – including yourself (whatever position you consider yourself to be in) – is the reason why things don’t change.

    Was Hurricane Erin closest to NYC on 9/11 or wasn’t it? Were cars upside down or not? Did the steel turn to dust or didn’t it? The point is the evidence has to be explained – and it really does not matter who is presenting it for scrutiny and asking the questions – as long as they are doing so in a transparent and legitimate way.

    So what’s your explanation for the evidence then? (This is the question I pose to those making disparaging remarks – a documented and tiresomely recurring theme, we can note.)

  37. David Kyte said on August 13th, 2009 at 12:39pm #

    Fact 1: Bldg 7 was deliberately brought down by controlled demolition. The lease holder, Larry Silverstein, admitted as much in a PBS interview:

    Well because Pull or Pull-it never has referred to a controlled demolition. It was made up but the stooges of 9/11 truth.

    The FDNY reported LARGE “Fully involved” fires, and even reported building 7 was leaning, there even used a surveyors transit to measure the leaning condition. Bet you would never lean that watching YouTube and being suckered by conspiracy theorist sites. So the FDNY is in on it?

    And here is a test of critical thinking I think you will not pass. WHY would Silverstein admit a controlled demolition on national TV???? It was after all a taped interview by a media (PBS) you say were in on it.

    Being a gullible rube is no way to go through life.

  38. David Kyte said on August 13th, 2009 at 12:57pm #

    Was Hurricane Erin closest to NYC on 9/11 or wasn’t it?
    So Erin did it? WOW!

    Were cars upside down or not?
    Well, No not until heavy equipment was bought in to clear the streets, YOU KNOW, to get the pile to aid in search and rescue?

    Did the steel turn to dust or didn’t it?
    No, it did not, Wood is the only loony claiming that. Hell this woman didn’t even know many of the fire trucks had REAR mounted engines, and she wondered if they had been turned to dust because the light weight aluminum and fiberglass fronts had been burned away in fires.

    The point is the evidence has to be explained – and it really does not matter who is presenting it for scrutiny and asking the questions – as long as they are doing so in a transparent and legitimate way.
    By that “reasoning” (and I but that lightly). Creationist have a legitimate scientific view because they too have Questions. People who believe condensation trails from jet must be investigated because these kooks think it’s chemicals. Hey, I have question about the sanity of truthers, so let start testing them for abnormal behavior traits.

    Here is a clue…. Come up with some REAL verifiable PROOF for this stuff first. Stupid question are just that, stupid questions.

  39. David Kyte said on August 13th, 2009 at 1:05pm #

    “Every mention of Judy Wood, for example, is a sure sign of someone trying to disrupt the conversation.”

    Well, Yeah she is a MAJOR loon muffin, and as a debunker of conspiracy theorist bull I have to thank her for showing the clear lunacy of the 9/11 truth camp.

    But people who believe in controlled demolitions calling Woods a loon is like a guy in an asylum dressed as George Washington calling the guys dressed as Napoleon crazy. But it sure is Fun to watch.

  40. Ike said on August 13th, 2009 at 2:53pm #

    David Kyte said on August 13th, 2009 at 12:39pm #

    Fact 1: Bldg 7 was deliberately brought down by controlled demolition. The lease holder, Larry Silverstein, admitted as much in a PBS interview:

    Well because Pull or Pull-it never has referred to a controlled demolition. It was made up but the stooges of 9/11 truth.
    ——————————————-

    Really?! What a load of BS!

    If you really want to know the truth (assuming you can handle it, that is), then get it from the horses mouth in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T2_nedORjw&feature=related

    Approximately three minutes into the video is Bill Manning, Editor-in-Chief of “Fire Engineering” — a magazine for Fire Departments.

  41. brian said on August 13th, 2009 at 3:26pm #

    ‘The Libyan patsy, al-Megrahi, framed for the Lockherbie bombing, is dying, and the Scottish authorities wish to release him. ‘

    Al-megrahi is no ones patsy, and had no role in the bombing…
    You can learn more here:

    http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/
    Its the blog of the architect of the Lockerbie trial…Robert Black

  42. brian said on August 13th, 2009 at 3:38pm #

    ‘The FDNY reported LARGE “Fully involved” fires, and even reported building 7 was leaning’

    David kyte…show us photos of these LARGE Fullly involved fires…
    Here are photos of the fires in WTC7
    http://doujibar.ganriki.net/english/e-7wtc1-fireordamage.html

    Here arewhat LARGE fully involved fires look like:
    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html

  43. brian said on August 13th, 2009 at 3:40pm #

    simuvac:
    ‘The water around here is seriously muddied.’

    but so is it by you still alleging Al -qaeda was behind 9-11…with US govt aid!

  44. David Kyte said on August 13th, 2009 at 8:58pm #

    The FDNY knew building 7 was in danger of collapse because of fire and the fact it was hit by WTC1. If you say the fires were small, you are saying the FDNY was in on it.

    Show me ONE instance where Pull or Pull it is used to refer to a controlled demolition using explosives before 9-11-01.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0CU-teE0bQ

    http://www.911myths.com/images/9/93/WTC7_Fires_DoD10_Still.jpg

  45. David Kyte said on August 13th, 2009 at 9:09pm #

    Lieutenant Rudy Weindler of Ladder Company 40

    “we saw a fire starting to show at windows in 7 World Trade Center, decided to go in and try and see if there was anybody in the building and/or put out the fires, and we did a search from floor to floor of 7 World Trade Center passing fire on floors 3, 7, 9. The standpipes had no water. We tried to extinguish a few fires with cans. When we got to 11, there was just too much smoke and we decided that, without water, if we went any higher, we’d be on fool’s mission.

    So we left 7 World Trade Center, back down to the street, where I ran into Chief Coloe from the 1st Division, Captain Varriale, Engine 24, and Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did.”
    ———-

    Captain Robert Sohmer Ladder 85

    “As the day went on they started worrying about 7 World Trade Center collapsing and they ordered an evacuation from that area so at that time, we left the area with the other companies, went back to the command post on Broadway, where we were instructed, they were looking for companies to go to the west side to operate on the bridges, to cut members out that they had confirmed were pinned and trapped under the bridges on the west side.

    A Battalion Chief was assigned to us. We took our apparatus to West Street to the north bridge, on that side over there, where we began to operate. We had identified different members who were deceased and trapped in rigs. We were about to proceed our operation there and this was in the afternoon, I would say approximately maybe 2:00 roughly, where we started to operate and then they asked us to fall back again due to the potential of 7 World Trade Center collapsing.”

    He was operating between 4 and 5 World Trade Center, when “They made us evacuate due to the fear of 7 coming down.”

  46. David Kyte said on August 13th, 2009 at 9:13pm #

    And another FDNY talking to Firehouse magazine.
    He must have been in on it. Right?

    Boyle: There were four engines and at least three trucks. So we’re heading east on Vesey, we couldn’t see much past Broadway. We couldn’t see Church Street. We couldn’t see what was down there. It was really smoky and dusty.”

    “A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

    But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

    So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

    Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

    Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

    Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

    Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

  47. Ike said on August 14th, 2009 at 8:26am #

    To all who are busy trashing 911 truth seekers, watch these videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3kBn1usddI&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FVJX79ohyU&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrj22lX8Bdo&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMvJUjZ8rlM&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkBswRgPHnI&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAMd9b2JiFo&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-gDGF0AabI&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfxioFvvRX4&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZJ58zSOGP8&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4LaWppkXxM&feature=related

  48. Andrew Johnson said on August 14th, 2009 at 9:47am #

    David Kyte has made a number of pronouncements and has clearly not studied the evidence in detail – so what would be the point of a new enquiry anyway.

    The pattern of evidence ignoring, ridicule and disparaging remarks in relation to the only 9/11 legal case based on physical evidence is all too familiar. Interested readers, please see this article for an analysis of this phenomenon:

    http://www.opednews.com/populum/diarypage.php?did=12917

    More are http://www.checktheevidence.com/

    (Notice how there was no accusations about people’s intelligence or other insults used in this post. No need – evidence is all that is needed to “show the way”. Thanks.)

  49. David Kyte said on August 14th, 2009 at 2:48pm #

    To all who are busy trashing 911 truth seekers, watch these videos:

    YEAH!!!!! YouTube is where real intellectual insight is realized!!!!!! Forget science books, factual news accounts. I saw a video that explained it all to me in pictures and some cool hip hop music.

    Here is the situation in a nutshell, These conspiracy theorist con jobs appeal to the less intelligent and less educated segment of society. IE YouTuber kiddies. You can get the gullible rubes to buy the controlled demolition, space beams melted the towers bull, they don’t KNOW any better. You can sell them elaborate plots to kill JFK, frozen aliens in area 51, chemtrails, zero point energy, fake moon landings along with 9/11 was an inside job. It’s is no surprise the rate of propensity to believe the inside job scam is greater among the less educated high school kids.

    Consider the quality of the person telling you stuff, are they bright, educated and informed? OR Some guy with a political agenda to push OR a stupid kid telling you to watch YouTube?

    The ridicule and disparaging remarks are well deserved as it is among other crackpot groups, like Holocaust deniers, of which many truthers are also. STOP WHINING and come up with REAL proof of you hypothesis.

  50. Annie Ladysmith said on August 14th, 2009 at 4:38pm #

    Dear Ike, don’t waste your time with these people, they’re not going to watch the video’s, they may even be on a pay-roll to disrupt sites like this.
    HERE IS THE EVIDENCE: after 9/11, when we were all in shock and horror, Bush et al pushed through the PATRIOT ACT, that executive order literally signed over our country to the tyrants waiting in the wings.

    After 9/11 the Moslem world was demonized and ostracized even though they don’t have a standing army to be a threat to anyone, certainly not the US or Israel.

    After 9/11 a ‘WAR’ of great magnitude was declared on the great Satan, TERROR. Yes, we have a ‘war’ going on with “TERROR”. One has to say it is original because not even a petty little tyrant in some banana republic has come up with that one.

    If you agree with the war on terror, you should join up, uncle Sam wants you. Go and take part in the outcome of 9/11. Go live in the DU spiked dust storms, drink the contaminated water. Watch the hopeless children wander around in ruble with tumors growing out of their necks.

    THE OUTCOME IS THE EVIDENCE, just like in any high-school science experiment.

  51. David Kyte said on August 14th, 2009 at 5:10pm #

    No I don’t watch many videos, I prefer to read books, real science and physics books, I am funny that way, I like to KNOW stuff not Believe stuff. I would suggest you try the same.

    Annie don’t assume because someone respects the laws of science and rational clear thought, and critical thinking, and opposes the mushy thinking of the conspiracy theorist they are supporters of Bush or Patriot Act. Bush was the worst president this country ever had directly because of his opportunistic use of 9/11 to push his agenda. And being a science geek, I sure could not stand his anti science, pro religion stance.

    Truthers did nothing but hurt the progressive cause by making true liberals look like gullible morons. Go take your self riotous crap elsewhere, it doesn’t impress me or other TRUE progressives.

    I am proud to say I did my part to show not all Bush opponents and anti war people are easily fooled children who would buy every loony idea that comes down the pike just because it get sold as the latest liberal cause. And that includes talking several people out of the truther cult personally.

  52. David Kyte said on August 14th, 2009 at 5:18pm #

    Annie, My I recommend you look up the logical fallacy “Post hoc ergo propter hoc”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

    Sorry no YouTube Video, you will have to read and understand.

    Maybe your will then know why
    THE OUTCOME IS NOT THE EVIDENCE

  53. brian said on August 14th, 2009 at 5:24pm #

    yes david,the fires were small…only a few fragments hit wtc7…so what caused it to fall?

    Controlled demolition is the only answer.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qK4j32iuo

    ‘Truthers did nothing but hurt the progressive cause by making true liberals look like gullible morons.’

    thats because thats what they are! The ‘true liberals’ are shown to be trusting the us govt official conspiracy theory…in spite of the lack of solid evidednce to support it….

  54. brian said on August 14th, 2009 at 5:29pm #

    ‘No I don’t watch many videos, I prefer to read books, real science and physics books, I am funny that way, I like to KNOW stuff not Believe stuff. I would suggest you try the same.’

    translation..david prefers theory and conjecture to evidence. id call that the kind of a believer.

    ‘YEAH!!!!! YouTube is where real intellectual insight is realized!!!!!! Forget science books, factual news accounts. ‘

    what factual news accounts do u mean? why drag in science bookw when you ignore videos of collapsing towers, little fire etc

    here is another interesting anomaly:

    BBC and the wtc 7 collapse…how did they know?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxFRigYD3s

  55. David Kyte said on August 14th, 2009 at 6:41pm #

    Because I read books and have a deeper understanding of physics and the science of the collapse I am better able to tell fact from made up fiction. It’s called being SMART, You see if you are smart you are harder to sucker and less likely to buy conspiracy hoaxes.

    Example: I know when truthers say Free Fall it is not true, the towers took longer, Knowing exactly how a controlled demolition is done and the work it takes allows me to know the idea you could rig a working office building for a controlled demolition is down right ridiculous. I know when exposed to heat steel “plasticity” increases. Sorry, I may have used a word YOU don’t understand.

    And it appears I know more then you on the rest of the events of that day. Why is that? Why is it debunkers always know more than truthers?

    BBC and the wtc 7 collapse…how did they know? Hell, if you were watching TV that day you knew that building was in danger.

    DUH!!!!!!
    Did you read the testimonies of the people who were there?
    Big fires, Gaping 20 story hole in the South face, Creaking, a budge in one side of WTC7. The FDNY saw this and reported it to everyone who was there, so the BBC knew as well.

    LIKE THIS:
    “Hayden: Yeah. There was enough there and we were marking off. There were a lot of damaged apparatus there that were covered. We tried to get searches in those areas. By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

    Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?

    Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there.

    DUH! tell the FDNY it was just little fires, they knew better. Maybe they should have watched a YouTube vid?

  56. brian said on August 14th, 2009 at 6:55pm #

    even bush adsdmitted it in 2006 rose garden speech:

    ‘For example, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed described the design of plane attacks on building inside the U.S. and how operatives were directed to carry them out. That is valuable information for those of us who have the responsibility to protect the American people.
    He told us the operatives had been instructed to ensure that the explosives went off at a point that was high enough to prevent people trapped above from escaping.
    He gave us information that helped uncover al-Qaida cells’ efforts to obtain biological weapons.
    We’ve also learned information from the CIA program that has helped stop other plots, including attacks on the U.S. Marine base in East Africa, our American consulate in Pakistan, or Britain’s Heathrow Airport.
    This program has been one of the most vital tools in our efforts to protect this country. It’s been invaluable to our country, and it’s invaluable to our allies.
    Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al-Qaida and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland.
    http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/09/15/bushs_speech_on_terror_legislation/
    ====================================

    can view him speaking here:
    at 2.40…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5JVYTxjmdc

  57. brian said on August 14th, 2009 at 6:59pm #

    david:

    ‘Because I read books and have a deeper understanding of physics and the science of the collapse I am better able to tell fact from made up fiction’

    try to view the facts, dave, not the theory….see my posts above

    Did you read the testimonies of the people who were there?
    Big fires, Gaping 20 story hole in the South face, Creaking, a budge in one side of WTC7. The FDNY saw this and reported it to everyone who was there, so the BBC knew as well.’

    what big fires dave?…theres no sign of a 20 story hole…just one in a corner….why didnt building topple in direction of hole?

  58. David Kyte said on August 14th, 2009 at 7:21pm #

    Well Brian, if you have facts to show and well formed logic to enlighten us with, then by all means put me in my place, if you can.

    here are some videos,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afb7eUHr64U
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLHwvwJCmgk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kSq663m0G8

  59. David Kyte said on August 14th, 2009 at 7:38pm #

    BBC and the wtc 7 collapse…how did they know?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxFRigYD3s

    Here is a little critical thinking test for anyone who buys this BBC hoax.

    WHY!!!! Why would the people who were going to do a “controlled demolition” on WTC7 tell reporters ahead of time that the building was going to be destroyed. Would it not cause suspicion? What was to be gained?

    You see if you would believe this idea, you would also believe emails from strange Nigerians with lots of money to give away are real. I am sorry but this is just jaw dropping stupid.

  60. brian said on August 14th, 2009 at 8:42pm #

    well, dave, so you do use youtube! see the one where wtc7 and a known CD are shown side by side?

    ‘WHY!!!! Why would the people who were going to do a “controlled demolition” on WTC7 tell reporters ahead of time that the building was going to be destroyed. Would it not cause suspicion? What was to be gained?’

    this is speculation…which comes from a habit of theorising….lets wait till we have found \the terrorists,…then they can be questioned…

  61. brian said on August 14th, 2009 at 8:45pm #

    dave your video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afb7eUHr64U

    shows fires on two floors in wtc7…thats all…not thr raging inferno you lead us to believe

  62. brian said on August 14th, 2009 at 11:28pm #

    more wtc7 photos here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPjOi2dQSM
    comparisons:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FzxcKoOVUg&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5UM9q7cj7I&feature=fvw

    and it doesnt take 13 seconds!

    more…at 3.40 on this video, we see another known CD…same rate of collapse as WTC7
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4556787288866368337

  63. brian said on August 14th, 2009 at 11:46pm #

    killtown has a collection of wtc7 collapse videos

    http://killtown.911review.org/wtc7/videos.html

    wtc7 collapse timed:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4635067417438764798

  64. Ike said on August 15th, 2009 at 12:37pm #

    David Kyte said on August 14th, 2009 at 6:41pm #

    Because I read books and have a deeper understanding of physics and the science of the collapse I am better able to tell fact from made up fiction. It’s called being SMART, You see if you are smart you are harder to sucker and less likely to buy conspiracy hoaxes.

    ————————

    And presumably you think you are the only one who has “read book and have a deeper understanding of Physics”, yes? For you information, Steve Jones was a tenured Professor of Physics at Brigham Young University and his understanding of the subject is certainly much deeper than yours. In fact, judging form your posts, the only thing I can say about you is that you are a liar and a waste of space!

  65. David Kyte said on August 16th, 2009 at 12:18pm #

    Yep. Steven Jones
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

    The man was relieved of his teaching duties and placed on “paid leave” from Brigham Young University. He was an embarrassment to a school of higher learning.

    Found iron Oxide (aka Rust) and Aluminum Oxide (aluminum dust) at ground zero, where a huge building made of rusting steel and which was clad in aluminum! WHAT A GENIUS!

    Got caught in the cold fusion scam.

    Interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith’s belief that Jesus Christ visited America! Can you say KOOK?

    Is that the best you can come up with?

  66. brian said on August 16th, 2009 at 2:56pm #

    ‘The man was relieved of his teaching duties and placed on “paid leave” from Brigham Young University. He was an embarrassment to a school of higher learning.’

    right, dave…unorthodox ideas are usually an embassement to orthodox educational establishments…

    ‘Found iron Oxide (aka Rust) and Aluminum Oxide (aluminum dust) at ground zero, where a huge building made of rusting steel and which was clad in aluminum! WHAT A GENIUS!’

    he did what you havent done:analysed the evidence…

    ‘Interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith’s belief that Jesus Christ visited America! Can you say KOOK?’

    Isaac Newton was into alchemy and biblical phrophecies…Jones is in good company!

    ‘In addition to his scientific work (Newton would have said as a part of his scientific work), he devoted a substantial portion of his enormous energy to the study of the Bible and Biblical texts and history. He read the Bible daily throughout his life and wrote over a million words of notes regarding his study of it.

    Isaac Newton believed that the Bible is literally true in every respect. Throughout his life, he continually tested Biblical truth against the physical truths of experimental and theoretical science. He never observed a contradiction. In fact, he viewed his own scientific work as a method by which to reinforce belief in Biblical truth.’
    http://www.reformation.org/newton.html

  67. David Kyte said on August 16th, 2009 at 4:09pm #

    There is a difference between Newton and Jones, Newton was right on some things. As far as anyone can tell Jones hasn’t gotten anything right, He has to push the imagined Nano Thermite thing because the use debunkers quickly pointed out how unworkable the thermite idea was. If not for the truther thing and the thermite fantasy he would have been long forgotten.

    It’s not like Jones has designed or built a skyscraper, Funny how the people who do see NOTHING unusual about the collapse,

    The kind of people who believe these conspiracy theories are by their very nature fancy prone types. Be it nature or nurture a certain percentage of people are ripe to be suckers. And it come as no surprise truthers do have a propensity to buy into other loony ideas. Just look at the chemtrail kooks, Fake moon landing people.

    Could have been a good thing in the old days to have lots of people blindly following the dogma of the group, you sure did not want a bunch of debunkers telling you, how full of crap your were.

  68. brian said on August 16th, 2009 at 7:37pm #

    ‘There is a difference between Newton and Jones, Newton was right on some things. As far as anyone can tell Jones hasn’t gotten anything right, ‘

    hes gotten most of it right…But then youd need to actually review his work to understand this.

    ‘It’s not like Jones has designed or built a skyscraper, Funny how the people who do see NOTHING unusual about the collapse, ‘

    funny how youve never heard of AE9-11:

    http://www.ae911truth.org/
    many of whoes members are architects…
    AND when did u last design a skyscraper….or anything?

    ‘The kind of people who believe these conspiracy theories are by their very nature fancy prone types. ‘

    very scientific,dave.

    ‘He has to push the imagined Nano Thermite thing because the use debunkers quickly pointed out how unworkable the thermite idea was’

    really, dave? I dont see you posting evidence of how unworkable it is…

    cant you get anything right,Dave? What a pussy!

  69. David Kyte said on August 17th, 2009 at 11:09am #

    http://www.ae911truth.org/
    many of whoes members are architects…

    And exactly how many of these “Architects” have done something as complex as do the structural engineering of a building over 10 stories? ZERO. You do know architects merely design how buildings look not the important structural work. People who design the look of fast food restaurants (Richard Gage) are not impressive experts.

    Brian, how much thermite do you think it would take to cut even a single column in the WTC? I know, because I studied the subject and if you did to, you would realize what a joke the thermite scam is. But than I know more that you on the subject.

    cant you get anything right,Dave? What a pussy!

    And yet I and the rest of the debunkers are smarter and a better man than you and the rest of the truther loons will ever be. And that is the point, truthers as people are rather dumb, easily fooled and seem to proud of how little they know. Pretending they are heros for truth is a way to fill their useless lives. I have yet to find a truly smart one.

    Going through life as a gullible boob is nothing to proud of, and 20 year from now I can say I told you so.

  70. David Kyte said on August 17th, 2009 at 11:25am #

    If you want to see the failure the thermite scam is look up Truth Burn
    http://911truthburn.blogspot.com/

    These dopes thought they would build a TRUTH sign out of steel and use thermite to cut it apart at burning man. Never mind the fact destroying “TRUTH” is rather poor symbolism.

    Big problem thermite is useless for cutting steel even on a small scale. Try as the may they could NOT figure out a way or find anyone who could cut vertical beams with the stuff. All they could do is set off 70lbs of thermite on a small piece of steel, and it’s not even clear they cut that.

    Needless to say the TRUTH still stands, controlled demolitions with thermite is unworkable. that is the truth. But it was good for a laugh none the less.

  71. brian said on August 17th, 2009 at 3:33pm #

    ae911 truth..archictects and engineers…You count ‘emm, Dave.

    ‘People who design the look of fast food restaurants (Richard Gage) are not impressive experts’

    i suggest you review what they have designed…BUT wait a minute…what have U desiged, dave? Nothing! You may lack integrity and perception, but your a genius when it comes to chutzpah!

    Thanks for putting yourself outside the debate! Come back when youve designed even a dog house!

    ‘And yet I and the rest of the debunkers are smarter and a better man than you and the rest of the truther loons will ever be’

    You may like to puff yourself up little man, but,as above,you keep pricking self-esteem…what have u designed or even done thats intellectually memorable?

    ‘Going through life as a gullible boob is nothing to proud of’

    I agree…pity you cant help exemplifying that!

    ‘Big problem thermite is useless for cutting steel even on a small scale’

    youre wasting your 10 watt intellectual power by not backing it with some evidence…Dave…

  72. David Kyte said on August 17th, 2009 at 4:14pm #

    “Thanks for putting yourself outside the debate! Come back when youve designed even a dog house!”

    What is good for the Goose… My I suggest you do the same then.

    You ask for evidence, and show not a single bit of proof to your accusations of criminal acts by thousands of your fellow Americans, out side of you own amble ignorance of how a controlled demolition is done and a few youtube links, you are sad indeed.