How the “Most Moral Army in the World” Wages War on Students

If there’s one thing the Israelis are good at it’s making war on women and children.

They killed 952 Palestinian kiddies in their homeland between 2000 and the start of the Gaza blitzkrieg in December 2008 (according to B’Tselem statistics). They murdered at least 350 more during their Cast Lead onslaught and have kept Gaza under daily attack ever since. So the brave Israelis must have eliminated nearly 1400 youngsters by now. Would anyone care to guess how many they left bleeding, maimed and crippled?

The “most moral army in the world” also loves waging war against Palestinian university students. Not long ago I wrote about Merna, an honors student in her final year majoring in English. Israeli soldiers frequently rampaged through her Bethlehem refugee camp in the middle of the night, ransacking homes and arbitrarily arresting residents. They took away her family one by one. First her 14-year-old cousin and best friend was shot dead by an Israeli sniper while she sat outside her family home during a curfew.

Next the Israelis arrested her eldest brother, a 22 year-old artist, and imprisoned him for 4 years. Then they came back for Merna’s 18-year-old brother. Not content with that the military came again, this time to take her youngest brother – the ‘baby’ of the family – just 16. These were the circumstances under which Merna had to study.

Israeli military law treats Palestinians as adults as soon as they reach 16, a flagrant violation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Israeli youngsters, of course, are regarded as children until 18. Palestinians are dealt with by Israeli military courts, even when it’s a civil matter. These courts ignore international laws and conventions, so there’s no legal protection for individuals under Israeli military occupation.

As detention is based on secret information, which neither the detainee nor his lawyer is allowed to see, it is impossible to mount a proper defence. Besides, the Security Service always finds a bogus excuse to keep detainees locked up “in the greater interest of the security of Israel”. Although detainees have the right to review and appeal, they are unable to challenge the evidence and check facts as all information presented to the Court is classified. So much for Israeli ‘justice’.

Faced with this mounting mental stress Merna, far from giving up, determined to carry on with her studies. The most moral army in the world may have robbed her brothers of an education, but she would still fight for hers.

To get to Bethlehem University, or any other, many students have to run the gauntlet of Israeli checkpoints. “Sometimes they take our ID cards and they spend ages writing down all the details, just to make us late,” said one. Students are often made to remove shoes, belt and bags. “It’s like an airport. Many times we are kept waiting outside for up to an hour, rain or shine, they don’t care.” The soldiers attempt to forcibly remove students’ clothes and they swear and shout sexual slurs at female students.

Some tell how they are sexually harassed on their way to university and spend the rest of the day worrying what the Israelis will do to them on their way home. The constant humiliation undermines student motivation and concentration.

Five years ago the Israelis forcibly removed four Birzeit University students from their studies in the West Bank and illegally sent them back to the Gaza Strip. All four were due to graduate by the end of that academic year. There was an outcry from around the world and the Israeli Army Legal Advisor was bombarded with faxes and letters demanding that the students be allowed to return to their studies.

The world’s most moral army agreed that the students might be allowed to return to Birzeit if they signed a guarantee to permanently return to the Gaza Strip after completing their studies. This effectively exposed Israel’s policy to impose a final separation between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, even though the two are internationally recognized as one integral territory. Under international law everyone has the right to freely choose their place of residence within a single territory, but since when did Israel give a damn about international law? The racist regime makes it virtually impossible for Gaza students to reach the eight Palestinian universities in the West Bank. In 1999 some 350 Gaza students were studying at Birzeit. Today there are almost none.

It was no great surprise, then, to hear from Bethlehem University a few days ago that Berlanty Azzam, a 4th year Business Administration student, was being held in detention by the Israeli military authorities with the intention of deporting her to Gaza “for trying to complete her studies at Bethlehem University.”

Berlanty, a Christian girl, is originally from Gaza but has lived in the West Bank since 2005 after receiving a travel permit from the military to cross from Gaza to the West Bank. She too is being robbed of her degree at the last minute. She was detained at the Container checkpoint between Bethlehem and Ramallah after attending a job interview in Ramallah.


The 21 year-old was due to graduate before Christmas. On Wednesday night the “” blindfolded and handcuffed her, loaded her into a military jeep and drove her from Bethlehem to Gaza, despite assurances by the Israeli Military Legal Advisor’s office that she would not be deported before an attorney from Gisha (an Israeli NGO working to protect Palestinians’ freedom of movement) had the opportunity to petition the Israeli court for her return to classes in Bethlehem.

When they’d crossed the border the world’s most moral army dumped Berlanty in the darkness late at night and told her: “You are in Gaza.”

“Since 2005, I refrained from visiting my family in Gaza for fear that I would not be permitted to return to my studies in the West Bank,” Berlanty told Gisha on her mobile phone before the soldiers confiscated it. “Now, just two months before graduation, I was arrested and taken to Gaza in the middle of the night, with no way to finish my degree.”

Bethlehem University wants to mobilize people from around the world to protest. Who better to contact, I thought, than the Palestinian ambassador in London, Professor Manuel Hassassian, who happens to be a former vice-president of that excellent seat of learning? “Have you contacted the Israeli ambassador for an explanation to this outrage?” I emailed him.

Next day, having heard nothing, I emailed again: “Update… She has been removed to Gaza blindfolded and handcuffed! What is the Embassy doing about this please?” Another 24 hours have gone by and the silence is deafening. Still, it’s not unusual for the Palestinian embassy to be fast asleep, out to lunch or off on holiday and no-one covering.

I had of course simultaneously emailed the Israeli ambassador Ron Prosor asking him, please, to make enquiries. “On the face of it, this seems a senseless outrage. The student concerned has, I believe, just started her final year. I wonder what Mr Prosor or Mr Netanyahu would say if the education of their sons and daughters or grandchildren was disrupted in this manner.” And next day, having heard nothing, I sent the same update about Berlanty being blindfolded and handcuffed. Another 24 hours have passed… silence here too; not even the courtesy of an acknowledgement from Israel’s press office, which usually responds like lightning to anything with news value.

If this had been a Jewish girl deprived of her university degree and life chances Israeli embassies around the world would be instantly on the warpath hurling accusations of religious hatred and anti-semitism. But it’s the Jewish state screwing up the young life of a Christian, so that’s alright then.

Stuart Littlewood, after working on jet fighters in the RAF, became an industrial marketeer in oil, electronics and manufacturing, and with innovation and product development consultancies. He also served as a Cambridgeshire county councillor and a member of the Police Authority. He is an Associate of the Royal Photographic Society and has produced two photo-documentary books including Radio Free Palestine (with foreword by Jeff Halper). Now retired, he campaigns on various issues, especially the Palestinians' struggle for freedom. Read other articles by Stuart, or visit Stuart's website.

115 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on October 31st, 2009 at 11:38am #

    All that is legal in US, europe, and israel and not mention also morally correct. tnx

  2. mary said on October 31st, 2009 at 12:30pm #

    Well said Mr Littlewood. Poor Belanty. What a lovely girl. Her light shines out. However is she feeling after this assault on her liberty and human rights?

    Her crimes – to have been born in Gaza, to have a brain and to be in that checkpoint at the wrong time but I suspect that her arrest was not random. Shame on Israel and shame on Prosor, Knesset stooge and Hassassian, PA/Abbas stooge.

    Elsewhere Sussex University (on the UK south coast) students are joining the boycott of Israeli goods.

  3. kalidas said on October 31st, 2009 at 12:32pm #

    Hand in hand with the most moral rabbis and bankers in the whole wide world!!
    Their reputation, which surely extends from one end of the universe to the other, and is most definitely second to none, speaks for itself!
    (It also screams, spits, drools, curses and cries)

  4. Amadore said on October 31st, 2009 at 1:08pm #

    This is a perfect example of the Bigotry of anti-GENTILISM.
    Anti-GENTILISM is the source of “antisemitism”. HUMANITY did not invent “antisemitism” and then wait thousands of years for judaism to appear, just so everybody could “hate” it for absolutely no reason. Jacob invented judaism, Moses (another “gem” of humanity) codified anti-GENTILISM in his “torah”. Then judaism practiced anti-GENTILISM, their hatred of ALL NON-jews, and the only SANE reaction of any NON-jew is self defense, which the “Tribe” calls antisemitism.
    Judaism is neither a race or a religion, it is Xenophobic Tribalism.
    A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.
    1. The organization, culture, or beliefs of a tribe.
    2. A strong feeling of identity with and loyalty to one’s tribe or group.

  5. kalidas said on October 31st, 2009 at 1:17pm #

    Ponerology: division of theology dealing with evil; theological doctrine of wickedness or evil;
    A science on the nature of evil adjusted for political purpose.

  6. jon s said on October 31st, 2009 at 2:45pm #

    It would be so easy to start a response with : If there’s one thing the Palestinians are good at it’s making war on women and children and all innocent civilians…
    Mr. Littlewood makes no mention at all of the Hamas’ crimes.
    The abducted IDF soldier Gilad Shalit is in a much worse predicament tha Berlanty Azzam. He should also have the right to be free and to get on with his life.

  7. Noisy Tappet said on October 31st, 2009 at 3:37pm #

    Why? Shalit is a trained killer taken prisoner. And you forget there are 10,000 Palestinians held in Israeli jails many without charge, including women and children. How important is Shalit next to these?

    Take a look at the figures for children killed…
    Israelis outkill the Palestinians by at least 12 to 1. You talk of Hamas’s crimes, but can you tell us how many they have killed?

  8. mary said on October 31st, 2009 at 11:30pm #

    Those B’tselem figures are shocking. They cover the period from 29.9.2000-26.12.2008 so presumablydo not include those from Cast Lead, ie another 1,500 deaths. Does anyone know the totals since Al Naqba in 1948?

  9. mary said on October 31st, 2009 at 11:31pm #

    Those B’tselem figures are shocking. They cover the period from 29.9.2000-26.12.2008 so presumablydo not include those from Cast Lead, ie another 1,500 deaths. Does anyone know the totals since Al Naqba in 1948?

  10. jon s said on November 1st, 2009 at 4:37am #

    Noisy, Gilad Shalit is a soldier serving his country and abducted from inside Israel. Until his return (probably in exchange for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners) he should not be treated cruelly and inhumanely. He deserves to be treated legally,as a POW. As far as the Palestinian prisoners – yes, those held without being convicted should be released, also children , if any are being held. Gender, however should not constitute a free pass: women have bee recruited as suicide/homicide bombers, and have participated in what they call “the armed struggle”.
    As to the number of Israeli casualties you can find it on the same B”tselem website. What’s the point of comparing the numbers? The side with the most casualties wins the argument? Is that the way it works? If you have suffered more casualties does that mean your cause is just?

  11. jon s said on November 1st, 2009 at 4:45am #

    Mary, Israelis killed, both military and civilians, before and after 1948, number 24,293, as of last April.

  12. Noisy Tappet said on November 1st, 2009 at 5:23am #

    Jon S, my understanding is that Shalit was captured inside Gaza. Thousands of Palestinian civilians have been abducted from inside the West Bank and Gaza by Israeli intruders, so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Is it OK for the Israelis to abduct people but not OK if Palestinians do it?

    From what I hear Shalit is being treated OK, which is more than can be said for thousands of Palestinian prisoners. There are several independent reports of torture in Israeli jails.

    You seem well informed about the number of Israelis killed since 1948. Aren’t you keeping score for the other side? It makes me laugh when Israelis know exactly how many home made rockets have been fired by Hamas but never say how many state-of-the-art missiles, shells and bombs the Israelis have launched into Gaza.

  13. B99 said on November 1st, 2009 at 5:51am #

    Mary – The figures of Palestinian fatalities since 1948 (actually 1947) can not be precisely known – but estimates are as high as 60,000. I provided an accounting here on DV at one point – perhaps I can retrieve that. To these numbers we’d have to add the hundreds of thousands of permanently maimed and many tens of thousands of incarcerated – even without charge – by Israel. We should also add the many tens of thousands of other Arabs killed by Israel in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt.

    So why anyone should talk about this Israeli gestapo soldier held by the Palestinians is beyond me.

  14. jon s said on November 1st, 2009 at 6:01am #

    Noisy, Well your understanding is wrong. Shalit was captured in a Palestinian raid on a IDF base near Kerem Shalom, inside Israel. They used a tunnel under the fence to carry out the operation. Shalit’s treatment is illegal and cruel, he is not accorded his rights as a POW.
    If you think he’s being treated better than Palestinian prisoners, why not call on the Hamas to treat him the same as their prisoners are treated in Israel? I’ll sign on that!
    And where did you come up with “thousands of Palestinian civilians abducted” ? What are you talking about?
    Yes I try to be well-informed but I must admit that I found that number through a split-second Google-search.
    I notice that Hamas rockets are “home made”, while Israeli missiles are “state-of-the-art”. Again, like in the matter of casualties, is that supposed to prove that their side is just? Sympathy for the supposed underdog? Believe me, the people in Sderot suffered greatly from those quaint, “home-made” rockets. Incidentally, I wonder how many people make their homes in rocket factories…

  15. jon s said on November 1st, 2009 at 6:14am #

    Real soldiers – as opposed to terrorists – don’t hate the soldiers on the other side, and treat enemy prisoners decently.. To call Gilad Shalit a “gestapo soldier” reflects on your lack of simple human empathy and decency. He actually served in the Armoured Corps.

  16. Noisy Tappet said on November 1st, 2009 at 6:18am #

    The people of Sderot made their home on the ruins of an ethnically cleansed Palestinian village so had no business being there in the first place. The Palestinians firing the roclets were probably the villagers (or their descendants) who were forced to flee their homes and ended up in Gaza refugee camps.

    Israeli government figures put Palestinian prisoners at over 7,000 – lower than previous years. Other sources suugest more than this.

    Are you seriously trying to compare Hamas’s back-yard rocketry with US-supplied ordnance? Many Hamas rockets scarcely made it over the border let alone endangered the people of Sderot. Only 1 on 500 caused casualties. What’s the figure for Israel’s firepower?

  17. jon s said on November 1st, 2009 at 7:48am #

    Essentially what you are saying is that the category of “innocent civilians” doesn’t exist as far as Israelis are concerned. Sderot is not in the West Bank or Gaza, it’s inside Israel proper , so if the people there have no right to be there, that applies to all Israelis. Statements such as yours convince many Israelis that there’s no point in trying to seek a peace agreement that would involve ending the occupation and the settlements, since the issue is our very right to exist, even in Sderot -not the settlements or the occupation. Fortunately your position is more extreme than mainstream Palestinian opinion.
    And if you position rocket launchers in your back-yard , aimed at Israeli civilians, don’t be surprised if your back-yard is hit back.

  18. B99 said on November 1st, 2009 at 7:57am #

    Jon S – The Israeli soldier functioned as a member of an occupying army – and, I should remind you, as a member of an ILLEGAL occupying army – as per the virtual world consensus on that issue.

    Estimated Total deaths in 39 riots – 329 Jews, 3293 Palestinians.
    47-49 war – 2,000 Jews, many thousands of Palestinians
    1982 Lebanon invasion – 487 Jews, 15,000 Palestinians, (15,000 Lebanese)
    1st Intifada – 85 Jews, 900 Palestinians
    2nd intifada – 1100 Jews, 4200 Palestinians
    Gaza Massacre – 13 Jews, 1300 Palestinians
    (B’tselem total since Nov 2000 – 1062 Jews, 4907 Palestinians)
    estimated totals – 4014 Jews, 29,693 Palestinians, (15,000 Lebanese)

    These figures (as of mid-2009) do not include Palestinians killed in between wars, nor Lebanese killed in Israel’s 2006 invasion – nor of course, the many thousands of other nationalities killed by Israel.

    The significance of the overwhelming number of Palestinian deaths (and injured, incarcerated) over Israeli deaths is that Palestinians are fighting for their very lives – Israel is fighting for a bigger Israel. Palestinian deaths are overwhelmingly in Palestine – Israeli deaths are often ALSO in Palestine. Nearly half of Israeli deaths are military – Palestine has no military to speak of. And it should also be understood that the number of CHILD deaths of Palestinians in the Intifada is virtually equal to TOTAL Israeli deaths.

    At bottom, Israel is doing to Palestine what the Nazis did to the Warsaw Ghetto. Jon S understands this because he understands the morbid roots of Zionism in early 20th century Europe – which research he admits is being carried out even now in Israel and elsewhere.

  19. B99 said on November 1st, 2009 at 8:03am #

    Jon S – Israel does not have ‘real’ soldiers – at least in the manner you describe. Jewish children are raised on the belief of a rite of passage into adulthood through enlistment in the Israeli Occupation Force after high school – and each Jewish teenager understands full well that he or she is expected to leave their country, discipline the Palestinians in their own country, and not hesitate to shoot to enforce this discipline – even if it means children.

  20. jon s said on November 1st, 2009 at 8:35am #

    B99, I suppose I’m supposed to regret the fact that the Palesinians haven’t been more effective and efficient in killing Israelis…
    All you have to do is read the previous poster , Noisy, to understand that most Israelis have the perception that they are fighting in self-defence , since in the eyes of our enemies even the people of Sderot don’t have the right to live in peace.
    Your analogy of the Warsaw Ghetto is simply obscene anf outrageous, doesn’t merit a reply.
    Israeli teenagers are indeed expected to serve in the IDF to defend the country and most of them do so with pride.. Why don’t you tell us about the Palestinian children’s “rite of passage”? How about little kids dressed as suicide bombers?

  21. jon s said on November 1st, 2009 at 8:44am #

    B99 writes that I understand “the morbid roots of Zionism”.
    This is what I really wrote in a previous post:

    The roots of Zionist ideology are entangled in several 19th and 20th century ideologies , including nationalism, liberalism and socialism, also on elements of the Jewish faith and traditions.

  22. T..... said on November 1st, 2009 at 9:36am #

    F T K!

    “F The Kikes”

  23. B99 said on November 1st, 2009 at 9:54am #

    Jon – You can’t say that the Jews were fighting any more in self-defense than were the Indians, Africans, Maoris or Australians. It was a colony of Britain, and the Jews were the colonizers. They came to take the land – and they did so. When Palestinians objected, they moved them out – when they refused to move they shot them. No different than what was done to the Indians, Africans, Maoris or Australians. The act of colonization is an act of OFFENSE, not defense. That’s the root of the Israel problem.

    The perception by Jews that Israel is fighting in self-defense is merely that – a perception based in propaganda and superstition, borne out of decade after decade of Israeli-state propaganda with veritable total cooperation by the Jewish media – and based in deep-seated hatred of gentiles originating in the Jewish experience in Europe.

    Noisy is correct in his assessment that the majority of Palestinian refugees in Gaza were forcibly expelled from their homes in southern Palestine – many from Sderot itself. Thus the resentment. Israel itself does not have the right to live in peace, never mind those Jews who got benefit of Palestinian housing and land.

    Gaza is a death camp – a death camp brought to you by the folks who used to live in Nazi run death camps. In that regard, it is worse than the Warsaw Ghetto.

    You don’t need me to talk about Palestinian suicide bombers – you only have to read the mainstream media in the US. What you DON”T read in this media is the fact that Jewish kids are raised to leave their country and kill the children of others. That’s not defense – that’s a continuation of the colonization that brought Jews to Palestine in the first place. The proof of the pudding is the SETTLEMENTS – that’s OFFENSIVE, not defensive. The goal of Jews is to kill and maim as many Palestinians as necessary as to make the rest submit and move on – so that Israel can be bigger.

    Palestine’s resistance is an existential war of survival – Israel’s is a war of expansion and hegemony.

    The roots of Zionists mythology are based in 19th century ultra-nationalism, the belief in blood over citizenshship, race over reason. That’s why Lenni Brenner is right – and you KNOW it.

  24. kalidas said on November 1st, 2009 at 10:10am #

    Yeah, that’s why they pour out that donated black Jewish blood.
    (can’t be too careful you know)

    “The perception by Jews that Israel is fighting in self-defense is merely that – a perception based in propaganda and superstition”

    How about the perception, based in propaganda and superstition, that they even ARE “Israelis.”

  25. Noisy Tappet said on November 1st, 2009 at 10:14am #

    Come on, Jon S, Sderot sits on a Palestinian village called Najd, which was ethnically cleansed by Jewish terrorists in May 1948, before Israel was declared a state and before any Arab armies entered Palestine. The 600-odd inhabitants were forced out of their homes at gunpoint. Najd wasn’t part of the territory allocated to the Jews in the 1947 UN partition

    Of course, under UN Resolution 194 they have a right to return home. But Israel is no respecter of UN resolutions except if they can be used against Iran.

  26. mary said on November 1st, 2009 at 2:06pm #

    Mohammed Omer, the Martha Gellhorn Prize winning journalist from Rafah, will be on a speaking tour in the US next week. He was beaten up by Shin Bet and left with injuries when returning through the Allenby Bridge crossing back to Gaza. ‘Do you have love in your culture?’ he was asked by the sneering thugs when asked to account for the presents he had brought back for his family (or rather what remains of it as some have been killed including two brothers and their home bulldozed). He has been in Europe receiving treatment. He is an amazing young man and is courageous and talented.

    He writes here about the ‘Hebrewisation’ of Arabic place names and road signs by the Occupiers.

  27. jon s said on November 1st, 2009 at 2:37pm #

    The obvious difference between Zionism and what was done to the Africans , Indians, Maoris, Australians is that the Jewish “colonizers ” were not coming to a foreign land, they were returning to their ancestral homeland. The conflict with the Arab population was tragic , but probably unavoidable.
    Please don’t tell me what you think I know. By the same measure I’m sure you KNOW how false and how vile is your comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto. (“Worse than the Warsaw Ghetto”, no less..)
    Noisy, The good people of Sderot have the right to live in peace, to work, study, raise their families, live their lives, without the threat of terrorist rockets. The 1947 UN partition borders are irrelevant, since the Arab side rejected the plan and opted for war. Again, do you recognize the category of “innocent civilians” regarding Israelis, any Israelis? And , in your view,under what circumstances would Israel be justified in exercising the right to self – defense ? ( I have the feeling that your answers are “no” and “never”).

  28. Noisy Tappet said on November 1st, 2009 at 3:16pm #

    All we hear is the Israelis’ “right to defend themselves”, as if no-one else has that right and certainly not the Palestinians. Going back to 1947 the Arabs had every right to reject the Partition. After all, they weren’t even consulted.

    And don’t you think the people of Najd had a perfect right to live there in peace etc, without Jewish terrorists forcing them out?

  29. B99 said on November 1st, 2009 at 4:15pm #

    Ancestral homeland? Pretending for a moment that this is the ancestral homeland – who has the right to return to an ancestral homeland? I just saw a map of ancient Celtic tribes in what would later be called Yugoslavia – do the Celts have the right to return to this ancestral homeland? — A homeland more established in historical fact than any Ashkenazi relationship to the land of Canaan. If the Celts have such a right (by way of some Jewish right), do the Celts also have the right to remove the Slavs? Do the Celts have the right to evict them, kill those who try to return, and then expand further into Slave territory?

    You know that the Zionists were not so attached to Palestine that they would not have taken a homeland elsewhere, say Uganda or Argentina – but they finally got the Brits to sponsor them in Palestine. Besides, the Jews who wanted to live and die in Palestine were already going there – the rest – and that would be several million – wanted to come to America – or anywhere but Palestine. That’s why the Jew Brenner presents you evidence of Jewish refugees being STEERED to Palestine. That was no ancestral homeland for these people – that was some god-forsaken strip of land in the desert.

    The conflict with the Palestinians was more than tragic – it was criminal. My comparison to the Warsaw Ghetto or Auschwicz is only vile if you think that Jews are better than the rest of us. For those of us who believe in basic human equality, we KNOW that the line from the Warsaw ghetto traces directly to Dachau and thence to Gaza. That’s why you have no problem killing their children.

    Israel has no more right to peace than did Iraq after Saddam invaded Kuwait, the squatters in Sderot have no more right to peace than did Berliners after Hitler invaded Poland.

    The 1947 border lines were made irrelevant ONLY when the Jews overran them. The Arabs states did not join the war for 6 months after the UN recommendation. And the Palestinians were within their legal rights to reject that recommendation – and their rejection made that resolution null and void. The Jews then overran BOTH sides of Palestine, killing and expelling all the way.

    Israel has ONLY the right to live behind the 1967 borders graciously though erroneously granted it by the Gentile states. Israel has NO rights beyond those borders – and as long as they remain outside of their borders they have no right to expect peace. They instead have only a duty – the duty to return home to their ill-gotten land. Take their troops and settlers and go home.

    Israel does not now, nor has it ever, exercised self-defense. All wars of Israel are wars of conquest.

  30. deceschi said on November 1st, 2009 at 4:57pm #

    Noisy – so you admit that the Palestinians (or at least the leaders that they ‘ve chosen) are still AT WAR with the Israelis – today as when they started their hostilities against Jews in the early twenties of the 19th century. So why complain about their destiny, by them chosen and by them self-inflicted?

    As for the “ethnically cleansed territories” you should know (but regrettably you ignore) that the civil war was started already in November 1947, and not by the Jews:

    “Attacks in the first four months of the war were limited to Arab bombings and snipings in the urban centers; assaults on Jewish urban neighborhoods and rural settlements; and ambushes against Jewish traffic, which from December 1947 generally moved in organized convoys, guarded by Haganah members, often riding in open vans and makeshift armored vehicles, and British armored cars. There were also, as feared, Jewish retaliatory attacks on Arab urban neighborhoods, villages, and traffic.

    In December, Arab militiamen assaulted and partly took Tel Aviv’s southern Hatikva Quarter before being driven back by Jewish militiamen. The following month, the ALA’s 2nd Yarmuk Battalion, supported by local militiamen, unsuccessfully attacked Kibbutz Yehiam in Western Galilee. In February 1948, the ALA attacked Kibbutz Tirat Zvi, in the Beit Shean Valley, but the Jewish defenses (and the vastly outnumbered Jewish defenders) and the mud proved too formidable. A British relief column arrived on the scene at the end of the battle and briefly engaged the Arabs. The ALA suffered 40 to 60 dead; the kibbutzniks, one dead and one wounded.
    As the war wore on, and partly in response to Jewish reprisals, the Arab militiamen also unleashed a wave of urban bombings. The focus was Jerusalem. On February 1, Arab bombers, aided by British deserters, struck the offices of the Palestine Post (today the Jerusalem Post), killing one person and injuring 20. On February 22, the bombers—most of them British deserters in this case—struck more effectively, blowing up three trucks in downtown Jerusalem’s Ben-Yehuda Street, levelling four buildings and killing 58 people. A third bomb, in an American consular car driven by an Armenian Arab, blew up in the courtyard of the Jewish Agency building, killing 12.”
    By late March, the situation along the roads had steadily deteriorated, and the Haganah General Staff began to fear a Jewish collapse, at least in Jewish West Jerusalem (which, with 100,000 people, contained a sixth of the country’s Jewish population). Early in the civil war, the Arabs noted the Yishuv’s main vulnerability: the roads that linked the main urban centers to one another and to clusters of rural settlements. On December 31, 1947, Haganah intelligence reported: “The Arabs intend to paralyze all Jewish traffic on the roads within the next few days.” Gradually during the first months of 1948 the Arab militias concentrated their attention on the convoys; by March their firepower and methods of operation had proved highly successful. For the Haganah, the last weeks of March were disastrous, as they lost much of their armored car fleet and dozens of troopsFirst came the convoy ambushes, all in the Jerusalem area, at Har-Tuv on March 18, Atarot on March 24, and Saris on March 24, in which a total of 26 died and 18 vehicles were destroyed. Then came two great disasters. On March 27, thousands of local militiamen swooped down on a 50-vehicle convoy heading back to West Jerusalem from the isolated Etzion Bloc—a cluster of four kibbutzim between Hebron and Bethlehem—and halted it, pouring fire on the 186 Haganah. By the following morning, the Jews’ situation was desperate. The overflights of Haganah spotter planes, dropping the occasional grenade on the militiamen, did little good. At last a British armored column got through and negotiated a ceasefire. The Haganah men were forced to abandon all their vehicles and hand over their arms. The Haganah lost 15 dead and 73 wounded, and 10 armored cars, 4 buses, and 25 armored trucks.
    An even worse fate befell a smaller Haganah convoy in Western Galilee, heading for Kibbutz Yehiam, on March 27. The convoy was lost to Arab Liberation Army and local ambushers, with 47 Haganah men killed; many of the bodies recovered by the British afterwards had been mutilated. A third convoy, on its way from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, was badly mauled at Hulda on March 31.

    The British High Commissioner in Palestine, Gen. Alan Cunningham, understood the significance of what had occurred. “It is becoming increasingly apparent that the Yishuv and its leaders are deeply worried about the future. The intensification of Arab attacks on communications…has brought home the precarious position of Jewish communities, both great and small, which are dependent on supply lines running through Arab-controlled country,” he reported to London on April 3. “In particular it is now realized that the position of Jewish Jerusalem, where a food scarcity already exists, is likely to be desperate after 16th May.…The balance of the fighting seems to have turned much in favour of the Arabs. […]” (Benni Morris, Lashing Back – Israel’s 1947-1948 Civil War)

  31. Shabnam said on November 1st, 2009 at 5:06pm #

    “were not coming to a foreign land, they were returning to their ancestral homeland. The conflict with the Arab population was tragic , but probably unavoidable.”

    This is has been taken over by the Zionist liars who come here and throw their lies at us and think they can fool us. They CAN FOOL NO ONE EXCEPT THEMELVES.

    Twelve tribes started in Canaan about thirty-five centuries ago; and not only that ten of them disappeared – more than half of the members of the remaining two tribes never returned from their “exile” in Babylon. How then, can anybody claim to descend directly from that relatively small community which inhabited the Holy Land at the time of Abraham’s Covenant with God?

    The Jewish racial myth flows from the fact that the words Hebrew, Israelite, Jew, Judaism, and the Jewish people have been used synonymously to suggest a historic continuity. But this is a misuse. These words refer to different groups of people with varying ways of life in different periods in history. Hebrew is a term correctly applied to the period from the beginning of Biblical history to the settling in Canaan. Israelite refers correctly to the members of the twelve tribes of Israel. The name Yehudi or Jew is used in the Old Testament to designate members of the tribe of Judah, descendants of the fourth son of Jacob, as well as to denote citizens of the Kingdom of Judah, particularly at the time of Jeremiah and under the Persian occupation. Centuries later, the same word came to be applied to anyone, no matter of what origin, whose religion was Judaism.

    The descriptive name Judaism was never heard by the Hebrews or Israelites; it appears only with Christianity. Flavius Josephus was one of the first to use the name in his recital of the war with the Romans to connote a totality of beliefs, moral commandments, religious practices and ceremonial institutions of Galilee which he believed superior to rival Hellenism. When the word Judaism was born, there was no longer a Hebrew-Israelite state. The people who embraced the creed of Judaism were already mixed of many races and strains; and this diversification was rapidly growing…

    Perhaps the most significant mass conversion to the Judaic faith occurred in Europe, in the 8th century A.D., and that story of the Khazars (Turko-Finnish people) is quite pertinent to the establishment of the modern State of Israel. This partly nomadic people, probably related to the Volga Bulgars, first appeared in Trans-Caucasia in the second century. They settled in what is now Southern Russia, between the Volga and the Don, and then spread to the shores of the Black, Caspian and Azov seas. The Kingdom of Khazaria, ruled by a khagan or khakan fell to Attila the Hun in 448, and to the Muslims in 737. In between, the Khazars ruled over part of the Bulgarians, conquered the Crimea, and stretched their kingdom over the Caucasus farther to the northwest to include Kiev, and eastwards to Derbend. Annual tributes were levied on the Russian Slavonians of Kiev. The city of Kiev was probably built by the Khazars. There were Jews in the city and the surrounding area before the Russian Empire was founded by the Varangians whom the Scandinavian warriors sometimes called the Russ or Ross (circa 855-863).

    The influence of the Khazars extended into what is now Hungary and Roumania. Today, the villages of Kozarvar and Kozard in Transylvania bear testimony to the penetration of the Khazars who, with the Magyars, then proceeded into present-day Hungary. The size and power of the Kingdom of Khazaria is indicated by the act that it sent an army of 40,000 soldiers (in 626-627) to help Heraclius of the Byzantines to conquer the Persians. The Jewish Encyclopedia proudly refers to Khazaria as having had a “well constituted and tolerant government, a flourishing trade and a well disciplined army.”

    Jews who had been banished from Constantinople by the Byzantine ruler, Leo III, found a home amongst these heretofore pagan Khazars and, in competition with Mohammedan and Christian missionaries, won them over to the Judaic faith. Bulan, the ruler of Khazaria, became converted to Judaism around 740 A.D. His nobles and, somewhat later, his people followed suit. Some details of these events are contained in letters exchanged between Khagan Joseph of Khazaria and R. Hasdai Ibn Shaprut of Cordova, doctor and quasi foreign minister to Sultan Abd al-Rahman, the Caliph of Spain. This correspondence (around 936-950) was first published in 1577 to prove that the Jews still had a country of their own – namely, the Kingdom of Khazaria. Judah Halevi knew of the letters even in 1140. Their authenticity has since been established beyond doubt.

    According to these Hasdai-Joseph letters, Khagan Bulan decided one day: “Paganism is useless. It is shameful for us to be pagans. Let us adopt one of the heavenly religions, Christianity, Judaism or Islam.” And Bulan summoned three priests representing the three religions and had them dispute their creeds before him. But, no priest could convince the others, or the sovereign, that his religion was the best. So the ruler spoke to each of them separately. He asked the Christian priest: “If you were not a Christian or had to give up Christianity, which would you prefer – Islam or Judaism?” The priest said: “If I were to give up Christianity, I would become a Jew.” Bulan then asked the follower of Islam the same question, and the Moslem also chose Judaism. This is how Bulan came to choose Judaism for himself and the people of Khazaria in the seventh century A.D., and thereafter the Khazars (sometimes spelled Chazars and Khozars) lived according to Judaic laws.

    Under the rule of Obadiah, Judaism gained further strength in Khazaria. Synagogues and schools were built to give instruction in the Bible and the Talmud. As Professor Graetz notes in his History of the Jews, “A successor of Bulan who bore the Hebrew name of Obadiah was the first to make serious efforts to further the Jewish religion. He invited Jewish sages to settle in his dominions, rewarded them royally… and introduced a divine service modeled on the ancient communities. After Obadiah came a long series of Jewish Chagans (Khagans), for according to a fundamental law of the state only Jewish rulers were permitted to ascend the throne.”

    Khazar traders brought not only silks and carpets of Persia and the Near East but also their Judaic faith to the banks of the Vistula and the Volga. But the Kingdom of Khazaria was invaded by the Russians, and Itil, its great capital, fell to Sweatoslav of Kiev in 969. The Byzantines had become afraid and envious of the Khazars and, in a joint expedition with the Russians, conquered the Crimean portion of Khazaria in 1016. (Crimea was known as “Chazaria” until the 13th century). The Khazarian Jews were scattered throughout what is now Russia and Eastern Europe. Some were taken North where they joined the established Jewish community of Kiev.

    Others returned to the Caucasus. Many Khazars remarried in the Crimea and in Hungary. The Cagh Chafut, or “mountain Jews,” in the Caucasus and the Hebraile Jews of Georgia are their descendants. These “Ashkenazim Jews” (as Jews of Eastern Europe are called), whose numbers were swelled by Jews who fled from Germany at the time of the Crusades and during the Black Death, have little or no trace of Semitic blood.

    Jewish historians and religious text books acknowledge the fact, though the PROPAGANDISTS of Jewish nationalism belittle it as pro-Arab propaganda. Somewhat ironically, Volume IV of the Jewish Encyclopedia – because this publication spells Khazars with a “C” instead of a “K” – is titled “Chazars to Dreyfus”: and it was the Dreyfus trial, as interpreted by Theodor Herzl, that made the modern Jewish Khazars of Russia forget their descent from converts to Judaism and accept anti-Semitism as proof of their Palestinian origin.

    SHAME ON LIARS. DOWN WITH ZIONISM, THE ENEMY OF HUMANITY. The world is fed up with zionist’s lies and will not TOLARATE IT.

  32. deceschi said on November 1st, 2009 at 5:38pm #

    errata corrige: Of course Arab hostilities against Jews started in the early twenties of the 20th century.

    shabnam: your pseudo-theories are those of a ignoramus, quoted directly from some dark anti-Israeli/anti-Jewish site. Pathetic.

  33. Shabnam said on November 1st, 2009 at 5:57pm #

    The zionist colonists have NO RIGHT TO PALESTINE. They have neither relations with hebrews who have lived side by side with Palestinians for centuries nor with the region. These colonists ARE NOT SEMITES either. They are anti semite European liars who think they can fool the international community, and stealPalestine’s land and resource including WATER. They have brought nothing but war, terrorism, destruction, human suffering, regugees. The European colonists have to go back to their ancestral land in Europe and leave the region alone, or STOP THEIR GENOCIDE and OCCUPATION IMMEDIATELY and share everything with the indigenous population in ONE COUNTRY FOR ALL. OTHERWISE THEY MUST GO BACK. No one supports zionists war criminals. Enough is enough.

    {The Jews of Khazaria recounts the eventful history of the Turkic kingdom of Khazaria, which was located in eastern Europe and flourished as an independent state from about 650 to 1016. As a major world power, Khazaria enjoyed diplomatic and trade relations with many peoples and nations (including the Byzantines, Alans, Magyars, and Slavs) and changed the course of medieval history in many ways. Did you know that if not for the Khazars, much of eastern Europe would have been overrun by the Arabs and become Islamic? In the same way as Charles Martel and his Franks stopped the advance of Muslims at the Battle of Poitiers in the West, the Khazars blunted the northward advance of the Arabs that was surging across the Caucasus in the 8th century.
    The Khazar people belonged to a grouping of Turks who wrote in a runic script that originated in Mongolia. The royalty of the Khazar kingdom was descended from the Ashina Turkic dynasty. In the ninth century, the Khazarian royalty and nobility as well as a significant portion of the Khazarian Turkic population embraced the Jewish religion. After their conversion, the Khazars were ruled by a succession of Jewish kings and began to adopt the hallmarks of Jewish civilization, including the Torah and Talmud, the Hebrew script, and the observance of Jewish holidays. A portion of the empire’s population adopted Christianity and Islam.

    This volume traces the development of the Khazars from their early beginnings as a tribe to the decline and fall of their kingdom. It demonstrates that Khazaria had manufacturing industries, trade routes, an organized judicial system, and a diverse population. It also examines the many migrations of the Khazar people into Hungary, Ukraine, and other areas of Europe and their subsequent assimilation, providing the most comprehensive treatment of this complex issue to date. The final chapter enumerates the Jewish communities of eastern Europe which sprung up after the fall of Khazaria and proposes that the Jews from the former Russian Empire are descended from a mixture of Khazar Jews, German Jews, Greek Jews, and Slavs.

    The Jews of Khazaria draws upon the latest archival, linguistic, genetic, and archaeological discoveries. The weaponry, agriculture, horticulture, fishing, burial practices, architecture, and religions of the peoples of Khazaria are among the many findings revealed here.

    The book also includes a map of the Khazar kingdom; a map of Khazarian-ruled Crimea; tables illustrating royal genealogies, the Turkic language family, and Turkic Khazarian personal names; a glossary of Khazarian words and other important terms which may be unfamiliar to readers; and an extensive bibliography listing hundreds of books and articles. }

  34. B99 said on November 1st, 2009 at 7:36pm #

    Dizzy – The Europeans – Jews and Brits – came to take Palestine from the Palestinians. It was asking too much for the Palestinians to fight against European imperialism, European technology, and European guns – to say nothing of the race-based ideology of the Jews – but if the Palestinians had managed to kill enough of the intruders – the world would now be a better place for all.

  35. Noisy Tappet said on November 2nd, 2009 at 1:24am #

    Deceschi, if hostilities were started by the Arabs in November 1947, how do you account for the bombing of the King David Hotel, by the Irgun disguised as Arabs, killing 91 and injuring 46, in July 1946?

  36. deceschi said on November 2nd, 2009 at 5:15am #

    noisy – the bombing of the King David Hotel aimed at the British Mandatory authorities, not at Arabs. Besides, telephoned warnings were sent to the switchboard by the hotel’s main lobby, the Palestine Post newspaper, and the French consulate (wikipedia).
    Interesting to see how Arab irregular troops treated Jewish prisoners. Uri Avnery wrote in this regard: “Arab irregulars and primitive villagers killed avery Hebrew who fell into their hands. We all saw the pictures of the severed heads of our comrades paraded through the alleys of the old city of Jerusalem.” The intention was clear: destroy all Jewish presence in Palestine. Later the secretery-general of the Arab League stetd: “This will be a war of extermination. It will be a momentous massacre to be spoken of like the Mongiloian massacre and the Crusades”.
    This mind-set and attitude is a fil rouge of the Palestinian-Arab nationalism, to this day. So why moan?

  37. mary said on November 2nd, 2009 at 5:42am #

    Leaving others to discuss the history of the Occupation, I am posting this. Hurrah for Chavez. Israelis get the cold shoulder – now they know they are not welcome.
    Los Angeles, Alta California
    October 28, 2009

    Hugo Chavez says Israeli tourists not welcomed

    President Hugo Chavez Frias of Venezuela affectionately known as “Chavez of Arabia” throughout the Middle East.

    We all have heard of “the ugly American” and of the unfriendly reception US tourists receive in many countries especially in France. Well now there is “the ugly Israeli” especially in Venezuela.

    Ever since the 22 day brutal and merciless bombardment of homes, schools, hospitals and mosques in Gaza by the Israeli criminal regime, many Israeli tourists are receiving the cold shoulder in countries they visit and some do not want them at all. It is no surprise that high level Israeli government and military officials do not dare set foot in certain countries for fear of being arrested but snubbing the regular Israeli citizen is a relative new phenomena.

    Last week an Israeli tour group scheduled to visit Venezuela was forced to cancel its trip due to its inability to obtain visas from the Venezuelan government. According to Arutz Sheva News, a group of 13 Israelis was set to fly to Venezuela but the tour company, Echo Outdoor Touring Ltd., had to cancel because it was unable to obtain the required visas.

    Soon after the Israeli government massacred over 1,400 Palestinian civilians of which over 300 were children, President Hugo Chavez kicked out the Israeli ambassador from Caracas and Israel retaliated by expelling Venezuela’s ambassador to Israel. Today Israelis seeking a Venezuelan visa must apply through a consulate outside Israel.

    The Israeli tour company Echo contacted Venezuelan embassies and diplomatic personnel in Kenya, Spain, Greece, Italy, Germany and Colombia for visas and was finally told to contact the Venezuelan embassy in Amman, Jordan. “There, to our surprise, they demanded that we appear in person with a pile of documentation in order to receive the visas,” said Echo CEO Ronen Raz. In addition Raz explained, “There are those who are afraid to travel to Jordan.” There is an increasing number of countries that are off limits to Israelis.

    According to Ronen Raz, the Venezuelan embassy in Amman, Jordan requested a letter in English from each traveler’s place of employment, original bank statements going back three months, an English-language medical affirmation of health, and more. The Israelis finally got the hint and they cancelled their scheduled tourist trip to Venezuela.
    Related La Voz de Aztlan report:
    Mexico condemns Israel over genocide in Gaza

  38. kalidas said on November 2nd, 2009 at 7:02am #

    The fake attack on the synagogue put them over the top in Venezuela.

    Fool me once shame on you,fool me a thousand times…

    Every devious, dishonest, brutal and cowardly act by “Israelis” and their aider and abettors, well, the rest of them even if they aren’t in Israel, proves their inherent MO is the very definition of ponerology.

  39. jon s said on November 2nd, 2009 at 8:51am #

    Did anyone else notice the racist Anti- Semitic epithet posted here earlier? I was waiting to see if anyone would react.
    Nobody noticed, nobody saw, nobody heard…” it wasn’t me”.. nobody saw fit to express reservations, perhaps to condemn…
    (see about half-way through the discussion at Nov.1 at 9:36 am)

  40. dana said on November 2nd, 2009 at 10:23am #

    For the record, deceschi, Zionist immigration to Palestine, and provocation/expropriation of the native people, Muslim, Christian, Druze, began decades before the conflict in 1947-1948. — Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries were at their wits’ end by 1947, having had to contend with a steady influx of violent, land and resource-hungry Zionist immigrants from Europe.

    Reread Brenner’s article, just above, which reveals a clear pattern of selection amongst the Jews who would be welcomed in Palestine. Only needed to apply were those who adhered to the belief that Palestine belonged to them; that they were *going home* [according to Herzl et Co’s clever and effective Jew = Semite amalgamation].

    In 1919, not even a year after WWI ended, Chaim Weizmann wrote to British authorities signifying that the land that was then under British Mandate, Palestine, would not provide sufficient water resources for the future Jewish State. Weizmann and his fellow Zionists even went so far as to make a list of the lands they wanted to have annexed to the future Jewish State: the Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon, both banks of the Jordan River …

    I’m not familiar with the reasons why these pieces of choice land weren’t included in the final ‘package’, but this was the kind of backroom deal that Zionists were working overtime to broker, as early as 1919. Imagine! And these are precisely the lands for which Israel continues to fight out of ‘self defense’.

    Had it not been for early 20th century Zionist immigrants stirring up bloody trouble from the day they set foot in Palestine, there can be little doubt that Jewish victims of WWII would have been welcomed among the existing population. Arab Jews, Christians, Muslims, and other, are among the most hospitable people in the world.

    The problem has always been, and remains, today, European Zionist ideology which, in its very essence, requires violence as justification. Zionist Israel has always been a devious, child-like entity, prone to violent tantrums. It’s a collectively sick society that is in need of urgent help to bring it back from the brink of ultimate recklessness.

    Give it some thought, deceschi and jon s. The Zionist cartel is in the process of painting Jewish inhabitants of Palestine and, unfortunately, Jews worldwide, as well, in an exceedingly poor light.

  41. b99 said on November 2nd, 2009 at 11:28am #

    Dizzy – The bombing of the King David Hotel was a terrorist bombing – this is where terrorism originated. NO WARNINGS were sent to the British or anyone else – notions of warnings being sent is just propaganda posted to Wikipedia (and falsely trumpeted elsewhere for decades now).

    And while some Arabs were given to verbal excess – and killed very few Jews – the Jews had already decided – the Biltmore Hotel conference – at the very latest – that all of Palestine was to be Jewish; i.e., they would carry out an ethnic cleansing pogrom on the natives.

    Memo to Jon – That poster’s ‘FTK’ remark is the same sentiment (except for the targeted ethnic group) posted by most Zionists here – though without the window dressing.

  42. b99 said on November 2nd, 2009 at 11:41am #

    Dana – Zionists pressed for a wider territory, as you say, on both sides of the Jordan River, and into what is today occupied Syria, as well as Lebanon up to the Litani R. The British did have other pressure groups to contend with – namely the Hashemites (the Hashim clan of the Arabian Peninsula), who were looking to rule portions of Mesopotamia, and their fellow WWI victors, the French, who wanted to carve an Arab Christian colony out of Syria (which became Lebanon). Thus, the British delimited the borders of this mandate somewhat, and internationalized Jerusalem and vicinity. The Jews, as we all know, attempted to gain all of these lands by force, at one time or another.

  43. kalidas said on November 2nd, 2009 at 1:39pm #

    Since this article is about “the most moral army in the world,” let us not forget just who makes up this infamous most moral army.
    In fact, let’s call it exactly what it is.
    Anyone have a problem with the truth?
    This is a Jewish army made up of Jews only.
    To call these murderers “Israelis” is an insult to all the Arab Israelis who are NOT EVEN PERMITTED TO SERVE in this most moral army, of the “only democracy,” this bastion of equality and freedom.

    So, once again these baby killing paragons of ponerology pass the test with blood stained colors.

    How very special..

  44. dana said on November 2nd, 2009 at 2:55pm #

    Yes, b99, the whole point of WWI was the creation of a realm of chaos that would enable Britain and to a lesser extent France, both underwriten by London and Wall Street, to divide up the post WWI Ottoman administration they declared without a whit of reason they had the right to control.

    This was the beginning of the Middle East’s downfall. It was the triumphal, unilateral declaration of Western bankers’ victory despite the era of monumentally indebted, post WWI European wasteland, that enabled France and Britain to carve up the regions administered by the Ottomans: Babylon and the Levant included, into ‘controllable’ pieces. The process continues to this day, enabled by key financial institutions.

    Zionist leaders, financed by key banking and political entities, were intimate insiders in the process of the breakdown of the post WWI Middle East, and did everything they could to be front and center to Imperial designs.

    They did a fine job, post world wars I and II, and were amply armed and incited to make war on their Arab nationalist, naturally socialist-leaning neighbors, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq. The enemy was ‘Arab nationialism’, but what Arab nationalitsm amounted to was regional social solidarity. This is what Israel declared was its enemy, in exchange for US $billions.

    Jews have been used by Zionist leaders for decades, on the basis of preposterous religious claims, to squat a land to which there can be no claim on their part, in order to be at the center of what was preportedly first to be a buffer against Communism and has now seamlessly been morphed into the center of what is an outlandishly unsubstantiated and artificial ‘war against terrorism’.

    Jon s and deceschi, where do you suppose the true terrorists lie?

  45. deceschi said on November 2nd, 2009 at 4:41pm #

    Dana – to quote out of the context is a favorite entertainment of Israel “critics”. It is one of the tactics to keep alive the lies and distorsions about Israel in order to delegitimize her. Tales of ordinary anti-Zionist propaganda. Not really helpful to understand reality. But of course: to understand the history (and thus also the present) of the ME conflict is not the aim of the Israel-haters, as for example @mary shows us with her statement (“Leaving others to discuss the history of the Occupation …”)

    There were no illegal Zionist land expropriations of the native people in Palestine in early 19th century. All land properties of Zionist Jews were purchased legally (and mostly for inflated prices) from Arab absentee Landlords – not seldom from Palestinian Arab politicians. There was never a violent expropriation of land by the early Zionists, rather a clear Arab willingness and speculation in the sale of land. See: “The Land Question in Palestine, 1917-1939″, Chapter 6: Jewish land purchase” by Kenneth W. Stein.
    As for Weizmann, “The Zionist Organization Statement on Palestine to the Paris Peace Conference” on 6 February 1919, written by himself, contains the main Zionist PROPOSALS for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, nothing more. And the subsequent historical events confirm this fully: Zionists accepted the UN-partition plan of 1947 (approximately 60 percent of the Jewish state was to be the arid desert in the Negev), the Arab Palestinian nationalists didn’t – and started the civil war. Their aim was simple: with the help of their Arab brothers, to get rid of the Jews and to keep ALL the land, even what they had previously sold to the Jews at so high prises. The opposition to any political solution that could lead to the establishment of two states in Palestine was the cause of the war with all its consequences – till present day. And I fear this Palestinian/Arab rejectionism is still today – paired with the new virulent form of Islamic extremism – the root of the conflict.

    b99 – you have NO evidence that those warning messages before the explosion at the King David Hotel were not sent. To cry wolf is not enough.

    P.S. Why do you systematically deform my name? Maybe to belittle and delegitimize, as you are used to do with Israel?

  46. deceschi said on November 2nd, 2009 at 4:45pm #

    Errata corrige: no land expropriation in early TWENTIETH century 😉

  47. kalidas said on November 2nd, 2009 at 5:21pm #

    The Washington Post
    September 28, 2001

    Instant Messages To Israel Warned Of WTC Attack

    NEW YORK — OFFICIALS at instant-messaging firm Odigo confirmed today that two employees received text messages warning of an attack on the World Trade Center two hours before terrorists crashed planes into the New York landmarks. Citing a pending investigation by law enforcement, the company declined to reveal the exact contents of the message or to identify the sender.

    “Evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified…”

  48. B99 said on November 2nd, 2009 at 6:31pm #

    Dizzy – Glad you brought up the subject of the Jewish land question. Jewish land purchases totaled less than 6% of Palestine. The land purchases were legal, but they expelled the tenant farmers from land they had farmed for centuries. Traditionally, when ownership changes, the tenant farmers remain to actually farm the land for cash or a portion of the crop. The Jews came in, and expelled the Palestinian tenant farmers – replacing them with Jews. Of course, there were instances where Palestinian labor was used – but those Jewish landowners were punished by the Zionist Agency for not following the rules of ‘purity of labor.’ It is a race-based system – bold-facedly so.

    The reason the land prices were grossly inflated as it was understood by all that rich Jews would pay any price for land. It was largely absentee landlords – often from Syria or Lebanon – who sold the land. Of course, the act of expelling the natives from this land is an act of violence. I mean, you do understand that, do you not? The expulsions served only to create a landless labor class – a class of peasants without land, now when working at all, working as day to day laborers – or unemployed in the towns and cities.

    The Zionists accepted the General Assembly recommendation because they were going from no land to 56% of the land, despite having only one-third of the population, itself having overwhelmingly arrived in the preceding dozen or so years. As for the Negev Desert, that was insisted upon by the Zionists as it held the possibility of petroleum deposits, was expected to have other mineral deposits, would provide the Jews with ports on two seas, and it was expected Jews could be settled there to ‘make the desert bloom.’ (Don’t hold your breath.) So don’t try to present the Negev as a liability. This, despite the fact that Jews did not live there and did not want to live there. If the UN were to have accurately allotted land by ethnicity – the Jews would have been limited to a few coastal cities. They were a minority (where they existed at all) in EVERY district in Palestine – EVERY district.

    The Palestinians rejected the recommendation as it was grossly unfair (being based on European guilt and Western hegemony), and were ENTIRELY within their legal rights to do so, said rejection rendering the recommendation null and void. Which is what happened – the UN and the US both went back to the drawing board on how to resolve the situation. What they had not planned for was that the Jews would over-run all of Palestine – not just the sector recommended for Jews – but all of it, AND get this – expel the natives!

    As far as the civil war, it looks like I”ll have to re-post the details on how the Jews stole Palestine – beginning with their terror acts in Haifa. The Arab ‘brothers’ of course, did not show up for another six months, far too late to alter the course of events, that is, far too late to stem the tide against the only largest and most well-armed army of the region.

    So the root of the problem is that Palestine was invaded and colonized by Europeans – a situation typical of all colonies. The Zionists did not come in peace, but only to remove the native population. And you know of course, that is precisely what they did.

    And no, there were no warnings on King David. This of course, was not the only terror act by the Jews. And never any warnings – not even to the very same nation that made the Jewish colony possible. What does that say about the foundation of Israeli-Jewish culture?

  49. deceschi said on November 3rd, 2009 at 12:10pm #

    b99 – Why do you insist on belittle and ridicule other’s names? Is it right for you to behave like a litte bully on the schoolyard? It seems so. Errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum est.

    I wonder where do you have your record and acknowledge from. You assert things without mentioning a single reliable source. Your rudiments of history are true in the same measure that a forger wants to sell his false notes, passing them off as brand new. This method is to be called historical revisionism and is systematically put into play for anti-Israeli propaganda purposes. But how it could be different since your (not mentioned) main sources are Ilan Pappe, Finkelstein and Khalidi and maybe some quotes out of context from Morris.
    I challenge you to produce any objective data which proves your false claim that the Jews stole land from local Arab fellahin. By 1930 the Jewish population owned 1,200,000 dunams, of which about 450,000 had been puchased from foreign landowners, approximately 680,000 from local owners of larges estates, and the remaining 75,000 from fellahin smallholders (Hillel Cohen, Army of Shadows: Palestinian Collaboration with Zionism, 1917-1948). These land acquisitions were legal and well accepted by the Palestinian land owners. The Palestinian compliance with the Zionists was extended throughout the whole Palestinian society, from the upper to the lower class. At the same time, it was the Arab political leadership that was screaming the loudest about stopping these land sales: “The Arab Press lost nothing of its virulence in inveighing against … the transfer of land to Jews … The Arab leaders have been more outspoken and less compromising in their hostility …” (Report by His Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the Council of the League of Nations of the Administration of Palestine and Trans-Jordan, 31 December 1933). Rendering these protests utterly disingenuous was the fact these same Arabs continued selling their land to immigrating Zionists. These elitist hypocrites wanted to reserve the right to profit from the suddenly valuable land in Palestine while denying other debt-ridden land owners the same option.

    The claim that the Jews expelled the Palestinian fellahin is a progandistic pro-Palestinian hoax and lie. Lewis French, the British Director of Development for Palestine, conducted in-depth investigations into Arab landlessness in 1931 and came to the conclusion that “by March 1932 it was clear that the number of landless Arab families did not reach the figure of thousands, as expected; there were only 664 families to be dealt with….” and “although 3,271 applications for re-settlement had been received from landless Arabs, only 664 had been admitted to the register, while 2,607 had been disallowed.” (French, A survey of Palestine).
    Stein writes in “The Land Question in Palestine 1917-1939”, p. : “Until 1929, no methodically planned Zionist national-land policy existed, … no scheme or plan existed for bringing a specific area of land under Jewish ownership in the erali 1920th. Geostrategic concerns only became apparent in 1929-30 when the development of a national-home idea was physically threatened by the 1929 disturbances and politically endangered by the HMG’s policy to truncate Jewish immigration and land settlement.”
    Besides, during the British Mandate the several measures the British instituted went so far in protecting tenant farmers that they began infringing upon the rights of owners to sell and buyers to buy. Stein: “From the 1920s and onwards, “almost a dozen major investigatory reports were written, and an unprecedented number of Palestinian laws were proposed or enacted which focused exclusively on the burdensome economic difficulties facing the majority rural population. In addition, a ‘landless’ Arab inquiry was completed by the Palestine administration. These Palestine laws included the 1928 Land Settlement Ordinance, the 1929 and 1933 Protection of Cultivators Ordinances and their amendments, the 1931 Law of Execution Amendment Ordinance, the 1932 Land Disputes Possession Ordinance, the proposed but not passed 1933 Musha’ Lands Ordinance, the 1934 Usurious Loans Ordinance, the proposed but not passed Damages Bill of 1935, and the 1936 Short Term Crops Loan Ordinance.” (Stein, Kenneth W. One Hundred Years of Social Change: The Creation of the Palestinian Refugee Problem. 1991).

    The real problem, which anti-Israeli propagandists deliberately ignore, was that the Arab poor (the fellahin) had already been dispossessed by the brutally exploitative and oppressive ruling Arab effendi class, who took zero interest in the welfare of commoners just as the European medieval feudal lords also did.
    So what is true, b99, that Jewish land purchases were dispossessing Arabs or that Arab land sales were dispossessing Arabs?
    After a massive three-year-long strike orchestrated by the Arab Palestinian leadership and characterized by rioting, violence, and murder against Jews, a White Paper was issued in 1939 that capped Jewish immigration and severely restricted where Jews could buy land. the Land Transfer Clause in Palestine (implemented in 1940) allowed for Jewish land purchases in only 5% of Palestine without restrictions. 63% of the land was entirely off limits, while 32% of the land required a special permit from the High Commissioner. (Cohen, Hillel. Army of Shadows: Palestinian Collaboration with Zionism, 1917-1948). A joint Anglo-American report conducted in 1946 concluded, “The Land Transfers Regulations of 1940 sought to protect the Arab tenant and small owner by prohibiting the sale of land save to a Palestinian Arab in one zone, by restricting such sales in another, and allowing unrestricted sale of land only in the third zone. Their effect has been such as to amount to discrimination against the Jews; their tendency is to segregate and keep separate Arabs and Jews.” (Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry. April 20, 1946).

    Try to get your facts straight, before repeating your litany about alleged early Jewish dispossession and removal of “natives”. This narrative is not credible anymore.

  50. b99 said on November 3rd, 2009 at 1:22pm #

    In a nutshell Dizzy, I don’t use Wikipedia for anything but dates. For you to do so pretty much disqualifies you from making valid comments.

    As I said – the land sales were legal, at least within the context of real estate transactions – so probably all 6% of Palestine owned by Jews was legal in that limited sense. (Don’t get heady with the dunam figures – they are only a quarter-acre each.) Of course, that’s at a different scale than the occupation itself by Britain, not recognized by Palestinians as legal. The Palestinians did not get to vote on the Mandate! Thus the entire enterprise of British/Jewish colonization is legally and morally bankrupt. If the Palestinians have the duty to be colonized who doesn’t – the Jews?

    It should go without saying that any enthusiasm by tenent farmers for having new owners quickly turned to disgust as they were removed from their land – part of the process of creating the landless Palestinian, a process that continues to this day both within Israel and in the West Bank. Palestinian political leadership understood all too well what was going on – the rapidly increasing loss of their nation to Central Europeans. What absentee Arab landowners could not resist was European riches – Rothschild money, and money from rich Jews in the US. So while these land transfers (which soon precipitated population transfers) were legal in a proper paperwork sense – this does not preclude the phenomenon from being morally outrageous – the race-based wholesale makeover of Palestine.

    By ‘disturbances’ your source is referring to the Arab Rebellion, which rebellion came out of the fact of increasing land alienation as the nation was transferred to outsiders. That three-years strike and violence did not come out of an undigested meal. The best way to ‘protect the Arab tenant and small owner’ owner would have been for the US and Britain to accept Jews, the very nations they wanted to go to – rather than to foist their distate for Jewry onto the Palestinians.

    Don’t pretend that exploitation of Arabs by Jews is healthier than exploitation by Arabs. While Palestine was just beginning to feel the effects of capitalist relations as it emerged from a feudal Ottoman era – inter-Arab land relations can best be described as a class issue – one that would have to be dealt with within Palestinian political culture. Illegally bringing in foreigners however adds the intractable issue of racial imperialism. Arab land sales have to be viewed from the perspective of massive amounts of foreign currency being provided to Jews in order to up-end Palestinian society. It could not help but be maximally disruptive. It’s not as if Arab land owners spent the early decades of the 20th century waiting down at the Jaffa docks for rich Jews to sell land to – no invitation had been extended to Europeans.

    And we surely both understand that fellahin removal was the precursor to population ‘transfer.’ You are not suggesting are you, that “Jewish dispossession and removal of natives” was not what happened between ’47 and ’49 are you? So if we acknowldge that the Jews were bad in ’48 (and who would argue with that) justwhen did they go bad? Just maybe the same cultural imperialism in operation in ’48 existed in ’29 as well. Seems as much.

  51. deceschi said on November 3rd, 2009 at 5:41pm #

    Bullshy (you deserve indeed this nickname) – what came first, the chicken or the egg? Your answer might be: of course the cock! But this isn’t very convincing – in the same measure your sourceless axiomatic statements aren’t. Ideology as misconception of the truth and of the law. So you are able to justify your theory of “racist imperialism”, but on the other hand you admit that the Jews owned in 1946 not more than 6 percent of the whole surface of Palestine. The Zionist movement had different contradictory souls, there wasn’t a plan to remove anybody, there was only the willingness to rebuild a Jewish national home after two thousand years of Diaspora. They were not imperialists, but first of all idealists who didn’t want anymore to be the chosen victims of the history. Even if they had the financial support of some Jewish capitalist.
    But maybe you are simply denying people the right to immigrate in another place and to buy land in that place. Quite laughable: most of the modern states were born from the constant dialectic tension and conflict between natives and immigrants – and I’m not only speaking about land purchases as happened in Palestine, but also crude brutal colonisation and invasion, as you should hopefully know from your own country …. Or are you denying only Jews the right to immigrate and buy land that was willingly sold to them, doesn’t matter if they were rich or not? If this is true, that’s actually racist and anti-Semitic from you, can you notice this?
    The same form of anti-Semitism animated the Arabs of Palestine toward the Jewish immigrants from the early twentieth century onwards – mixed with the growing FEAR of land expropriation by the Jews. On the other side, after the riots in 1920 and 1921, the Jews begun to fear to be forced out from Palestine by the Arabs and started to thing about a separate defensive force in order to protect themselves against future assaults. But only the riots of 1929, and not any intrinsic aspect of Zionist ideology, were the real trigger for the birth of militant Zionism as a political force, as well as the progressively more important role played by self-defense and military prowess in Zionist thought, action and society.
    Meanwhile the Arab and Jewish communities grew progressively apart. Arabs refused to participate in a Palestinian local government which gave equal representation to the Jewish minority. The Jewish communities employed only Jewish workers. It was a mutual spacing and segregation against the other group.

    So now we arrive at the really crucial point, the civil war in 1947-48. Your whole ideological construction is until this point based on volatile accusations – on a process of plans, regrettably not on founded facts and evidences.
    So what happened in 1947-48? Very simple: the UN-Partition plan, which aimed to resolve the conflict between Jews and Arabs in Palestine, was rejected by the Arabs who considered it unjust and the day after begun the civil war. Who shot the first bullet? The UN Partition plan was adopted on November 29, two days later (1-3 Dec.) there were the first Arab riots in Jerusalem and the beginning of the Arab blockade of the city. The Haifa riots and massacres occurred only a month later, on Dec. 30 and 31. Plan Nashorn was unleashed on April 2 and 3, and aimed to lift the blockade of Jerusalem by Arab irregular forces. Plan D was finalized on “was designed to prepare for the expected pan-Arab invasion. It authorized the Haganah brigades to secure the main routes between the Jewish centers of population, the main Jewish urban concentrations and the border areas, and potential Arab invasion routes.” (Benni Morris). It was a war – with the regrettable consequences a war.
    And regrettably it is still today:
    abc news, JERUSALEM, Nov. 3, 2009
    Israeli Intel Officer: Hamas Can Hit Tel Aviv
    Israel’s Gen. Amos Yadlin Says Largest City Threatened by Hamas’s New Missile

    Useful to scrape out your record:

  52. Noisy Tappet said on November 4th, 2009 at 12:06am #

    “…maybe you are simply denying people the right to immigrate in another place and to buy land in that place. Quite laughable…”

    Gee, does that mean I can immigrate into Israel and buy a plot of land there, deceschi, and wash my car and wallow in my swimming pool with water stolen from the Palestinians? Super!

  53. deceschi said on November 4th, 2009 at 3:27am #

    noisy – the settlements in the West Bank are part of a wider political conflict between Israel and the Palestininas/the Arab world. Thus, the settlements issue can only be resolved in a political way, through intensive and extensive diplomatic efforts which can lead to a durable peace. Now tell me, noisy, where do we stand today with the Palestinian unity, consistency and basic willingness to find a political solution to the main controversial issues of the conflict, together with the Israelis?

  54. bozh said on November 4th, 2009 at 8:53am #

    If one wld omit the fact that political solution in the euro-palestinian conflict was never available, because neither pals with their supporters nor christo-talmudic world with their supporters wanted one, one can then talk ab. availability of the political solution already in existence now.
    In short, a political solution had already been found but vigorosly rejected by the stronger side.
    Once again, chrito-talmudic crowd rejects any political solution just as it did in 1897, ’17, ‘s22’, ’47, ’67 and will most likely reject any other future solution as long as israel is so tiny and impoverished.
    Or as long as US/nato disapproves of any political solution while approving of all military ones, such as stealing of land, imprisoning/torturing people, occupation, military raids, etc.
    In short, full war-process as always before. For only thus had indians been conquered. And only thus can the little israel become viable state.
    However, be surrounded by etern enemies. What a fate for clazed people! tnx

  55. Noisy Tappet said on November 4th, 2009 at 9:32am #

    The settlements and associated land theft are a breach of law, nothing to do with “politics”.

  56. deceschi said on November 4th, 2009 at 10:09am #

    Oh, you are disingenuous, noisy. How do you expect to resolve the conflict, maybe again through unilateral moves by Israel, as it happened in Gaza? Well, the lack of any kind of political perspective on Palestinian side produced really great results. Guess you fully support the non-political developments in Gaza after 2005 ….

  57. Noisy Tappet said on November 4th, 2009 at 11:42am #

    Evidently you are as contemptuous of the law and the UN charter as your puppetmasters in tel Aviv.

  58. deceschi said on November 4th, 2009 at 12:50pm #

    No, law is equal, but for both sides. And if Palestinians are really interested in the creation of a own state, that means of the first Arab democracy, living in peace and security side by side with the Jewish state of Israel, the case of Gaza and all its putschist and terrorist implications after the 2005-pull-out is the worst imaginable way to show that required willingness. The latter however is paramount for any further concession by Israel. Your two-weights-and-two-measures-law appears as a farce of law and doesn’t lead to any solution.

  59. B99 said on November 4th, 2009 at 7:40pm #

    Dizzy and Bozo – what a pair! What came first?? The Palestinians of course – the Zionists didn’t get there until the late 19th century. By then, the Palestinians had been there, oh say, 10,000 years give or take a millennium.

    Yes, it’s a fact that Jews had purchased about 6% of Palestine before they stole the rest. You cannot dispute this can you? After all, they bought about 6% and then ethnically cleansed the region of Palestinians. Certainly it is mass murder, too – but in the matter of real estate, it is land theft.

    The Zionist movement indeed had ‘contradictory souls’ – so do all movements – but we can narrow it down to essentially two streams of thought, the only moderately malignant form that would impose Jews on Palestine but wanted a joint society, it’s figurehead in the person of Ahad Ha’am; and the rampantly malignant form that would impose a race-based exclusivist society, its figurehead, well, Jeez, just about all the rest of Zionists. And racist as always, there’s Dizzy, talking about a national home for Jews as if the native natural inhabitants were cardboard figures to be ‘transferred’ to the desert somewhere.

    Hey, you don’t get to build a home after 2000 years in the Diaspora, not for free anyway, like I said earlier, maybe the Irish should get back Austria and Yugoslavia. And you KNOW the reason Jews left Palestine was to make their living elsewhere – that’s voluntary, guy – you wanna go ‘back’, you have to apply at the consulate. However, it’s only ME that is acknowledging a right of Israel to maintain itself at this juncture in time, but there has to be a Palestine too. But you guys, well, you guys just suck – but hey, that’s what racism is about.

    Of course they were imperialists. A ‘National Home’ in another people’s land is NOT imperialist? On what planet? WHO didn’t want to be the chosen victims of history? So who does? That’s what America is for and that is where the ‘chosen victims’ wanted to go. You KNOW this of course, you too have read the Jew Brenner. Only the Zionist Executive wanted the ‘chosen victims’ to go to Palestine – or they could just effin’ die.

    NO ONE, NO PEOPLE has the right to immigrate freely into another’s land. If they had that right, you’d have had to permit the return of Palestine’s native natural inhabitants decades ago. The right of Jews to buy land in Palestine came out of the front end of the gun barrel of the British. That was the right of might – not the right of morals. There was no moral duty to impose Jews or Mongols or Swedes on Palestine. The only moral duty of the Brits was to bring Jews to Britain – something anti-Semitic Britain was not about to do, and in this notion he was joined by the maximally cynical Bengurion.

    There was no anti-Semitism from the Palestinians. That’s like saying the Indians were anti-Caucasian. As if the Indians (and the Palestinians) had developed a racial hatred a priori for the people who came to drive them off the land. There were no ‘riots’ by Palestinians – these were genuine rebellions against the illegal British occupation government and their colonizer lackeys who were ransacking their country. The militancy of Zionism is INHERENT in its Middle-European, 19th century ultra-nationalist origins. It is the blunt end of this Zionism and their British sponsors that Palestinians rebelled against. We only have to look at the record. Let’s turn to the Hope-Simpson Report (1930) to see what the Jews were up to in Palestine.

    “The Constitution of the Jewish Agency: Land Holding and Employment Clauses.The Constitution of the Jewish Agency for Palestine was signed at Zurich on 14th August, 1920. Article 3 (d) and (e) read as follows :
    ” (d) Land is to be acquired as Jewish property and subject to the provisions of Article 10 of this Agreement, the title to the lands acquired is to be taken in the name of the Jewish National Fund, to the end that the same shall be held as the inalienable property of the Jewish people.
    ” (e) The Agency shall promote agricultural colonisation based on Jewish labour, and in all works or undertakings carried out or furthered by the Agency, it shall be deemed to be a matter of principle that Jewish labour shall be employed . . . .”

    KerenKayemeth draft lease: Employment of Jewish labour only. I have been favoured with copies of the draft of the lease which it is proposed to execute in respect of all holdings granted by the KerenKayemeth (Jewish National Fund). The following is Article 23 of this lease :
    ” . . . . The lessee undertakes to execute all works connected with the cultivation of the holding only with Jewish labour. Failure to comply with this duty by the employment of nonJewish labour shall render the lessee liable to the payment of a compensation of ten Palestinian pounds for each default. The fact of the employment of nonJewish labour shall constitute adequate proof as to the damages and the amount thereof, and the right of the Fund to be paid the compensation referred to, and it shall not be necessary to serve on the lessee any notarial or other notice. Where the lessee has contravened the provisions of this Article three times the Fund may apply the right of restitution of the holding, without paying any compensation whatever.”

    The lease also provides that the holding shall never be held by any but a Jew. If the holder, being a Jew, dies, leaving as his heir a nonJew, the Fund shall obtain the right of restitution. Prior to the enforcement of the right of restitution, the Fund must give the heir three months’ notice, within which period the heir shall transfer his rights to a Jew, otherwise the Fund may enforce the right of restitution and the heir may not oppose such enforcement.
    KerenHayesod Agreements: Employment of labour.In the agreement for the repayment of advances made by the KerenHayesod (Palestine Foundation Fund) to settlers in the colonies in the Maritime Plain the following provisions are included :

    ” Article 7.The settler hereby undertakes that he will during the continuance of any of the said advances, reside upon the said agricultural holding and do all his farm work by himself or with the aid of his family, and that, if and whenever he may be obliged to hire help, he will hire Jewish workmen only.”

    In the similar agreement for the Emek colonies there is a provision as follows :
    ” Article 11.The settler undertakes to work the said holding personally, or with the aid of his family, and not to hire any outside labour except Jewish labourers.” ”

    IN OTHER WORDS, the Zionists alienated the Palestinians from their land – their country, it is the creation of the landless laborer. And why would a Palestinian object to that? In this illegally occupied colony. Palestinians WOULD AND DID work for Jews. But the several Jewish agencies (as above) forbade it. So it is fundamentally wrong of you to assert that Palestinians separated themselves as did the Jews. I can present you with more of Hope-Simpson on that matter if you like.

    Fast forward to 47-48. In the words of Yigal Allon, ‘hero of “Israeli War of Independence.”‘ He says, “we need to clean the inner Galilee” (of Arabs, of course). Yigal asked Jewish *friends of the Arabs* to tell them “to escape while there is still time…. The tactic reached its goal completely…. The wide areas were cleaned.” That was Yigal Allon’s remarks on the success of Plan Dalet as outlined in the Book of Palmach. Allon concedes, that but for the belated efforts of the Arab states, ‘there would have been no stop to the expansion of the forces of Haganah.” It was all by way of mass murder and grand theft.
    The day after 181 passed, Ben-Gurion began implementing what was to become Plan Dalet, in the works for months, which plan was to kill as many males as necessary to make the Palestinians flee their country. It worked, the Jews summarily executed untold thousands of Palestinians and over 500 villages were emptied and bulldozed. Haifa, Jerusalem and other large towns were ethnically cleansed also.
    The day after Gen Assembly resolution 181 in 11/47 the Jews started an ethnic cleansing campaign whereby they bombed, grenaded, shelled, machine-gunned, torched, raped and looted across the hundreds of Palestinian villages and cities. Often they gave the Pals some such message as ‘commit suicide, flee, or you will die.”
    You have 78% of Palestine. If the Jews continue to vote in reactionary leaders who continue the expropriation of the balance of Palestine – the Jews should lose it all. America will take them in – and the world will breathe a little easier.

  60. mary said on November 5th, 2009 at 2:43am #

    How sad life is for the Palestinians and how cruel the Occupation is after 71 years.

    A trip out from Aida camp.

    Kifah, a Lajee volunteer of several years, added:

    “I am taking some sand and sea water to my brother. He said he could not come with us because he did not get permission, but he wants to touch the sand of Haifa.”

    The children splashed and played at the water’s edge for two hours. Everyone on the shore could hear their laughter and squeals every time a wave chased them up the shore. 15 year old Reem lives in Aida Camp, less than 40 kms to the nearest point of the coast, but for her seeing these waters was a first:

    “This is the first time I have seen the sea. It is so huge and beautiful. I felt I had to touch it.” Many children hoped that they could ‘stay there forever’.

    From the top of Jabal Al Karmil (Mount Karmel) the coast spread out in front of everyone’s eyes below them. It was an awe inspiring vista which brought gasps from many. 14 year old Sally was amongst those shocked at the sheer size and space of her view:

    “This is the first time I have seen how huge the coast is. It looks exactly the way I draw it when I draw the map of Palestine.”

  61. mary said on November 5th, 2009 at 3:32am #

    Typo. 61 years. Pray it doesn’t last another ten years.

  62. deceschi said on November 5th, 2009 at 2:52pm #

    Well, bullshy, the Peel plan of 1937 proposed to give Arabs and Jews two states whose defined size was exactly inversely proportional to the current situation. The Jews, after intense internal debate, empowered at least the executive “to carry on negotiations in order to clarify the exact substance of the British government’s proposal for the foundation of a Jewish state in Palestine.” (The Twentieth Zionist Congress in Zurich, 3-16 August 1937); the Arabs, obviously, rejected it, as they rejected the partition plan of 1947. The Peel plan was indeed, giving the circumstances, unworkable, but the fact that the Arabs rejected it categorically without any discussion proves – then as now – that it was not so much that the they wanted self-determination as they did not want the Jews to have self-determination or sovereignty over the land the Jews themselves had bought and cultivated and in which they were a majority. The truth is that Arab-Palestinian political culture of the time was dominated by the al-Husayni clan, which harshly opposed any concession to the Jews and whose member and Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husayni became in WWII a fervent Nazi. They responded to the Peel plan with massive violence directed at Jewish civilian, as well as at British police and civil servants.
    So, bullshy, there where quite enough open windows for a Palestinian state, but – as we both know – Arabs (Palestinians) never “miss a oppotunity to miss an opportunity”. And I would add: willfully. Pity for them, the windows could close once and for all.

  63. B99 said on November 5th, 2009 at 4:36pm #

    Peel Commission aside – the occupation of Palestine was illegal, the imposition of foreigners, Jewish or not, was illegal, the partitioning of Palestine was illegal. Do you not know this word? Zionism had no legal rights that the Palestinians need have respected. You got as far as you did because major forces, much larger than the Palestinians could muster, decided that you should have half of their country (or more, or less). None of it was legally or ethically yours without going through the Palestinians – and the Palestinians said no – uncategorically. Doesn’t matter if they were Jews or Aztecs. The job of Britain (and the US) was to absorb as many Jews as wanted to come to the UK and US. Instead they forced Jews on Palestine.

    Now, the reality is that the Jews only bought 6%. In 1930, Jews were 17% of the population (up from 11% in 1922), and most had just recently arrived. There is no moral reason to turn over any of the country to these people. But certainly you were not entitled to more than 6%.

    You know through Brenner that no cooperation by the British appointee Mufti remotely compares with the cooperation of the Zionists with Nazism. Shall we review the Brenner article – or would you rather have me post other sources? So stop with the Mufti, who was important to no one as a figure in world politics.

    You can’t escape the fact that you came as colonizers and killed the natives and stole their land. This week you stole the land of another 30 native families. That makes you a supporter of fascism, perhaps a fascist yourself.

  64. deceschi said on November 6th, 2009 at 5:06am #

    bullshy – there are pretty enough fascist in Middle East. Their name is Islamofascists.

  65. mary said on November 6th, 2009 at 9:45am #

    What is the Italian for nonsense? This is yet another Islamophobic smear in nature and content circulating between the Zionist trolls.

    The origin of the photographs is easily obtained by clicking on to their properties button.
    The collage is taken from a very unpleasant webpage which is Islamophobic in nature and content which was sent in reply to a set of photographs put up on the internet from an art project of young children’s reactions to certain photographs. Date not given but as the President referred to is Bush Snr, assume old.


    Kiez Avantgarde Kunstschule is a contemporary art project involving pre-teen children from Soldiner Kiez in Berlin, Germany. During a summer workshop, the artists Ondrej Brody (CZ), Ivars Gravleis (LAT), Kristofer Paetau (FIN) and Avdey Ter-Oganian (RUS) planned to introduce a group of children into the practice of contemporary art, thereby referring to the longtime project “School of Contemporary Art” initiated by Avdey Ter-Oganian with teenagers in Moscow in the 90s. Our project didn’t turn out as expected: We didn’t manage to find a steady group of children to work with, so we decided to go to the nearest playground in order to try to attract children to participate in this project. Moreover, we had continuous disagreements concerning the (pedagogical) content of our project, which at the end resulted in the fact that only two exercises, conceived by Kristofer Paetau (“Airplane Dripping” and “The Punishment”), were executed, since he was the only artist capable to communicate with the children in German…

    A Quicktime Videodocumentation is to be viewed at:

  66. Noisy Tappet said on November 6th, 2009 at 9:48am #

    This thread, deceschi, is about Israeli fascist thugs who torrorise students. Not even Islamists do that.

  67. deceschi said on November 6th, 2009 at 1:11pm #

    Yes, noisy, the islamists have better methods to deal with dissent.

  68. kalidas said on November 6th, 2009 at 2:09pm #

    Speaking of terrorizing students (among others)

    Lord, the very thought of that Islamic banking system must cause teeth gnashing and wailing of the compounded kind.
    Beyond all else this fair and just Islamic system must elicit the most profane perturbations of ponerology ever exhibited in the known universe.

    “when you have usury, who needs alchemy?”

  69. B99 said on November 6th, 2009 at 4:22pm #

    Dizzy – Islamic political culture has no connection to Fascism – It is historically a central European phenomenon chiefly characterized by an alliance between capital and the state. Central European Jews of the era were largely torn between Bolshevism and the reaction to Bolshevism – Fascism. Both were viewed by Jews as the successor philosophies to Europe’s liberal democracies, which had failed to deliver on peace and prosperity in the wake of WWI. Revisionist Jews took to Fascism like a poodle to water, and that’s the philosophy that eventually won the day in Palestine – and it’s been hell on earth for Palestinians ever since.

  70. mary said on November 7th, 2009 at 3:29am #

    Has anybody read part 2 on Berlanty, on this site? Any comments on the Israeli Embassy’s response? I note that Berlanty has been given an ID number. Is this tattooed inside her wrist? Only asking.

    I have just read Kevin Coval on the Electronic Intifada. He is an American poet and writer and writes Why I Am Not A Zionist.

    Last week I was disinvited from my second Jewish conference in two months for poems I’d written in solidarity with Palestinians, poems that make an unapologetic call for justice. Subsequently, I and the poet I was to read with at the J Street conference, wrote a response to being censored. People from all over the country wrote to us supporting free speech, supporting art as a tool for change, supporting real talk about the degradation of Palestinians, and people wrote to let us know they disagreed. Some more thoughtfully than others.

    We decided to hold our reading anyway in Washington, DC during J Street’s inaugural conference at an alternative location. We were hosted by the Busboys and Poets space. The room filled with a spectrum of ideas. We read our poems and during the question and answer period, no one was shouted down. Not the Israeli army refusenik, not the liberal Zionist apologist, not the Palestinian student who asked us to include more about the Palestinian people in our poems, not just the land or idea of nation-state, a point beautifully made and incredibly profound. No one shouted down moderator Laila al-Arian, a brilliant journalist and activist, whose father was a Palestinian political prisoner in America, now freed because of his daughter’s persistence. The crowd was cool and civil, though broad in opinion.

    Within this article there is a link to his response to the organizers of the J Street conference who caved in to the Jewish lobby.

  71. deceschi said on November 7th, 2009 at 2:20pm #

    “Central European Jews of the era were largely torn between Bolshevism and the reaction to Bolshevism – Fascism. Both were viewed by Jews as the successor philosophies to Europe’s liberal democracies, which had failed to deliver on peace and prosperity in the wake of WWI.”

    At least, you should have the decency not to parade around your trivial ignorance about Jews and Jewish culture in order to bring grist to your mill. You make a pretty bad impression doing so. Israel hating and Zionist cospiracy theories loving hyper-marxist Lenni Brenner is not such a reliable objective source as you may believe. But it doesn’t surprise me very much that he and his school of thought is part of your cultural-ideological nourishment.

    On the specific topic I suggest you some healthy detoxifying diet:

  72. Noisy Tappet said on November 7th, 2009 at 2:31pm #

    I take it, deceschi, that you have nothing useful to say about the plight of Berlanty Azzam, who is robbed of her studies and her degree by Israel’s military thugs. Did such a thing ever happen to you as a student, by the way?

  73. B99 said on November 7th, 2009 at 4:24pm #

    Wait a second Dizzy, I had not called you on your use of Ken Stein – an Israel uber alles lightweight with cooked statistics. What’s your problem with Lenni Brenner being a Marxist (if in fact he considers himself one)? Jeez, some of my best friends are commie Jews – they’re the only ones who get it right.
    As far as ignorance on the subject of Jewry, trivial or otherwise, I’ll beat you hands down on all aspects of Jewish culture (except why you marry women as mom replacements). Your absolute non-command of the subject and the literature shows every time you post some silliness from *stupid Israel myths 101.* You might be able to get away with them with most gentiles, because they have no dog in the fight – but not with me. I’m light-years ahead of whatever you plan to post. Been there, done that. Why don’t you try reading actual historians instead of posting tendentious links? Is it that you don’t know who or what to read?

  74. deceschi said on November 7th, 2009 at 6:16pm #

    noisy – Stuard Littlewood is an anti-Israeli agitator, who moans and cries about every single Israeli move, while passing over in silence the terror activities of Palestinian extremists. For my part, I regret that such things happen and I hope that this “mistake” will soon be resolved. However, you must consider one fact: Hamas and Israel are at war, this means: the Israeli military rule is still working despite the fact that there is at the moment no open conflict. Israel’s greatest concern are terrorist infiltrations from Gaza and the West Bank into Israel, as it happened so often in the past, causing hundreds of civilian casualties. Only strict security measures, which indeed make life difficult also for innocent Palestinians, can prevent – up to a cetain extent – terrorist threats. It’s no coincidence that since the separation fence was built, so unjust this may appear to the Palestinians, the number of suicide bombings has dropped almost to zero. Sad to say, but as long as Palestinians go on fighting through education to hatred and terror, their situation will not significantly ameliorate. As long as terror and violence (the so-called “armed struggle”) remains a option in the fight against the “Zionist enemy” AND peace talks are linked to uncompromising preconditions, Israel has no better option to take the necessary countermeasures.
    Palestinians need urgently a new pragmatic and laic leadership that have the capabilities and the courage to reach a finale peace settlement with Israel. But today the Palestinian society, as well as the Arab world as a whole, is still too deeply involved in old and radical pattern of conflict that, realistically, preclude the possibility of positive developments in the next term.

  75. deceschi said on November 8th, 2009 at 1:46am #

    bullshy – is publiced in May 2008 for you old already?

    By the way: Who are your “actual historians”, since you are quite stingy on referring to them by name (apart from old-marxist Brenner)? Only a little curious.

  76. Noisy Tappet said on November 8th, 2009 at 2:35am #

    So why didn’t the Israelis build their “security” wall behind their own internationally recognised borders, deceschi?

  77. deceschi said on November 8th, 2009 at 2:51am #

    What internationally recognized borders are you referring to, noisy. Try please to be precise in your reference.

  78. Noisy Tappet said on November 8th, 2009 at 3:03am #

    Don’t be cute, deceschi – the 1967 borders. If it was up to me it would be the 1947 partition borders and then only if I could be persuaded that it was lawful for the UN to have given away other peoples’ land in the first place.

  79. mary said on November 8th, 2009 at 3:46am #

    On walls – how the Jewish media slobby slebs display their hypocrisy

    Bono & the Jewish Media Celebrate the Fall of One Wall and Ignore Another

  80. deceschi said on November 8th, 2009 at 4:42am #

    Well, the 67-borders are based on resolution 242 and are still to be considered provisional as long as a finale lasting peace agreement, which sets definitive boundaries, will be reached. As long as Palestinian policies don’t change significantly*, Israel is forced to consider her borders as defensible borders. But this doesn’t mean that the separation fence must be definitive. Also the Gaza settlements were entirely uprooted, with the regrettably well-known consequences.

    *Hamas leader Mashaal stated in an interview that he agreed to a Palestinian state in 1967 borders (so-called National Reconciliation Document), but he didn’t mention if he and his fellows a ready to recognize Israel in the 67-borders. Thus, forget it.

  81. Noisy Tappet said on November 8th, 2009 at 4:59am #

    That still doesn’t explain why the Wall bites deep into Palestinian territory – unless, of course, it’s to steal the precious water of the Western Aquifer and more prime agricultural land.

  82. deceschi said on November 8th, 2009 at 8:08am #

    The revised final route of the separation fence will encompass only 7 % of the West Bank. On the one hand, the topography doesn’t permit to put the barrier exactly on the Green line armistice border in many places (to add that the Green line is not to be considered definitive, since it is an armistice line). On the other hand, security reasons for the main residential blocks along the 67-borders are to be taken into account. Anyway, the barrier would not have been necessary, if the Palestinians had not unleashed their bloody terror Intifada in the Israeli cities.

    Not disturbed by the fact that Mashaal’s proposal obove doesn’t explain why the Palestinians keep on using terrorist methods, – unless, of course, they still hope to reach their final goal, the destruction of Israel?

    I love the hypocrite double-standarts of you people.

  83. Noisy Tappet said on November 8th, 2009 at 9:25am #

    Never satisfaied with the 57% handout you gotta steal more and more. I see you keep quiet about the water thieving.

  84. deceschi said on November 8th, 2009 at 10:14am #

    And I see you keep quite about terror and the howling behind the scene.

    As for your water claims, there is an other version of the reality which seems to me far more reliable.

  85. deceschi said on November 8th, 2009 at 10:17am #

    And I see you keep quite about terror and the howling behind the scene.

    As for your water claims, there is an other version of the reality which seems to me far more reliable:

    Jerusalem Post
    Middle East & Israel Breaking News » Israel » Article
    Aug 4, 2009 23:23 | Updated Aug 5, 2009 0:04
    ‘Water not being withheld in West Bank’

    Palestinian and international claims that Israel denies water rights in the West Bank are “baseless and incorrect,” Lt.-Col. Amnon Cohen, head of the civil administration’s infrastructures department, told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.
    The drought levy imposes a…

    The drought levy imposes a NIS 20 fine on usage above 32 cubic meters for two months per four-person household.
    Photo: Ariel Jerozolimski
    SLIDESHOW: Israel & Region | World

    According to Cohen, recent media reports – including in the BBC – are based on false information regarding the water situation in the West Bank from a recent World Bank report, which claimed that Israel is getting four times more water than the Palestinians.

    “Indeed, availability of water resources is highly disparate, with fresh water per capita in Israel approximately four times that of the West Bank and Gaza Strip,” the report claimed. “Whereas Israel has established efficient water infrastructure and management, the PA is struggling to attain the basic level of infrastructure and service of a low-income country.”

    According to Cohen, the report was based on incorrect information. Cohen recently met with World Bank officials to present them with the Israeli version of the water situation in the West Bank.

    For example, he said, in 2007 the Palestinians received 47 million cubic meters of water and in 2008 over 52 million.

    In addition, Cohen revealed in an interview earlier this week, Israel recently allocated a piece of beach land next to Hadera for the Palestinians to use to build a water desalination plant, which, if operated, would provide over 100 million cubic meters of water annually.

    “The land was allocated over a year ago and the Palestinians have yet to move forward with the project,” he said.

    “The Palestinians do not cooperate to try and independently improve their water situation,” Cohen added. “While we in Israel are cutting back on water use due to the drought and imposing fines on people who use too much water, the Palestinians are doing nothing of the kind.”

    Another example has to do with well digging in the West Bank. The Palestinians claimed that while the Israeli-PA joint water committee approved the drilling of 82 wells, none have been carried out due to Israeli refusal.

    “This is nonsense,” Cohen explained. “Out of the 82, 43 are Areas A and B which are under PA control and they do not need us involved. Out of the remaining 39, in Area C and under Israeli security control, 21 have been approved and 11 have not even been submitted for approval.”

    According to Cohen, dozens of drillings have been approved over the years but the Palestinians have not acted upon them. There are already 11 open wells in the territories that have not been connected to pumps, he added.

    “If they were to connect the wells, they would get another 11 million cubic meters of water,” he said.

  86. Noisy Tappet said on November 8th, 2009 at 10:38am #

    Ducking and waeving again. The point is that the Wall bites deep into Palestinian territory in order to seize control of the water in the Western Aquifer.

  87. B99 said on November 8th, 2009 at 11:10am #

    Dizzy- If only Littlewood were an anti-Israeli agitator! We need more of his kind – Israel gets enough of a free ride as is – being the only country that is de facto permitted to establish an Apartheid regime and being the only occupation of another’s land de facto permitted.

    Israel’s greatest concerns are not that there will be ‘terrorist’ infiltrations, it’s greatest concern is that it will be forced to accept peace before it has annexed the entire West Bank into Israel. Thus they shun the Arab World peace offer, and goad Palestinians into cross-border excursions so Israel can conduct a massacre.

    Hamas and Israel are not at war. Gaza and the West Bank are under illegal occupation and subject to ongoing repression and periodic massacres. The Palestinians have every right to resist – they are not untermenschen to Jews. There is of course, ‘open conflict’ – Palestinians are subject today as everyday for the past half century, to the open attacks of both the IDF and the racially arrogant Gush Emunim types. Thus ALL Palestinians are innocent – they are held captive by Jewish Nazis and they on occasion take the opportunity to exact a measure of revenge. This will end when the Jews go home to Israel – behind the borders permitted them by the world.

    The Apartheid Wall is a one-way wall. It forbids Palestinians from defending their country, but permits Jews to continue expropriating it – the very reason Palestinians had to resist in the first place. Now with the wall in place, the Apartheid expansion can continue without interruption.

    The Goldhagen thesis is that the German citizenry was responsible for the rise of Nazism and the actions it took – the Germans as a people were responsible in Goldhagen’s formulation. If ever this was so, it is true of the Jews who have consistently and bizarrely voted in one malignant regime after another – each one further reactionary than the preceding.

    It appears more and more that the Jews will remain relentless in their quest for racial hegemony. If there is a god, one can only hope that he once again thoroughly punishes them – while the secular world and the liberal regimes continue to look the other way.

    My historians? Morris, Shlaim, Khalidi (both of them), Said, Begin (not a historian, but very revealing as are all arrogant Israeli terror leaders), BenVenisti, Segev, Pappe, Sachar, Hirst, Flapan, Avneri, Beilin, Shahak – I can go on if you want to be hipped to some more.

    The borders of pre-67 are the only borders the world recognizes. If we don’t recognize those borders then Israel has no right to exist – period. We do, of course, understand quite well that the Apartheid wall does not demarcate definitive borders – it is already a truth that Jews have settled beyond them. For the Jews, the wall is well understood to have an Israeli side – even though that side is in Palestine. The Jews were recommended the gift of 56% of Palestine. They over-ran 78% of it – ethnically cleansing the natives in the process. In 1967, the Jews over-ran the rest of it (as well as parts of other surrounding nations) and now hold it illegally. Thus there is no reason for Palestinians to compromise further. The 7% of the West Bank on the ‘Israeli’ side is illegal – as per the INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE – as is the Apartheid Wall itself. Of course, the very occasional attacks by Palestinians would not have been necessary had not the Jews been greedy for more land – thus the wall is revealed merely as a scam to secure a bigger Judenstaat – cleansed of the native natural people of the region.

    And of course, the route of the wall has nothing to do with the topography of the region. If that were so, it would best be put on the Israeli coastal plain.

    The Gaza settlers were not uprooted – they had no roots. Moving them back to Israel – or more likely the West Bank – meant that the siege of Gaza could then be tightened. Thus, the Gazans – and all Palestinians – are within their rights to defend their country.

    You are of course revealing your reactionary roots when you say that Meshaal’s position of a Palestine on pre-67 borders is insufficient. Much as you want it, they are not going to lick your dick. In rejecting this, you also (once again) reject the right to say you are only interested in peace – when it is clear you are only interested in a larger race-based state.

    For now – let’s turn to Ben-Gurion. In a letter to the Jewish Agency Executive of June, 9, 1936, Ben-Gurion insisted that peace with the Arabs was only a means to an end: “It is not in order to establish peace in the country that we need an agreement. Peace is indeed a vital matter for us. It is impossible to build a country in a permanent state of war, but peace for us is a means. The end is the complete and full realization of Zionism. Only for that do we need an agreement…. “For only after total despair on the part of the Arabs, despair that will come not only from the failure of the disturbances and the attempt at rebellion, but also as a consequence of our growth in the country, may the Arabs possibly acquiesce in a Jewish Eretz Israel.”

    Same as it ever was.

    It was on this basis that the Zionists accepted the Peel Commission recommendations – that the Jews would take what the Brits gave them, then go after the rest through terror. The Peel recommendations were intended by the zyonz as the beginning, not the end – to be accomplished with a ‘first-class army’ – Ben-Gurion’s words.

    One would only have to substitute ‘national socialism’ and ‘German lebensraum’ for ‘zionism’ and ‘Eretz Israel’ to get the complete picture. Of course, this is something the Palestinians already long understood in 1936.

  88. deceschi said on November 8th, 2009 at 11:16am #

    You provides no evidence for your claims, only accusations based on rumors, as usual for this kind of biased criticism.

  89. Noisy Tappet said on November 8th, 2009 at 11:35am #

    Why else does the Wall follow that particular course? And why is it still being built years after the ICJ ruled it should be dismantled?

  90. B99 said on November 8th, 2009 at 2:28pm #

    So Dizzy – you need a source for what Ben-Gurion said? Try reading the post again, to wit: “In a letter to the Jewish Agency Executive of June, 9, 1936,….” What’s the matter, coming from the horse’s mouth is not good enough? Or you just don’t know how to find it? Shall I post more of what Ben Gurion said?

    Just remember two things – the occupation is illegal – IT’S THE LAW.


    The Jews did not come in peace.

    You only have to read Ben Gurion to know this. But you could also read Jabotinsky, or Weizmann, or Begin, or Shamir or any and every leader of Israel and the Yishuv.

  91. deceschi said on November 8th, 2009 at 3:46pm #

    What you still don’t get, bullshy, is that the real problem is not the 67-borders, but the Palestinian and Arab rejection to recognize the Jewish state of Israel within these borders – a rejection shared by hard-boiled anti-Zionists, as you and noisy wonderfully embody.
    If Israel would really be interested, as you argue, in a big Eretz Israel, she would certainly have held tight the Mount Sinai of Moses and his table of the Ten Commandments after the six-days-war (there where already some Jewish settlements) rather than give it back for a ‘cold’ but (at least until now) lasting peace with Egypt (by the way, the peace came from your negative idol Menachem Begin). She wouldn’t have withdraw completely from the Gaza strip whose ancient Jewish communities and prosperous life are well documented. She wouldn’t have left the Southern Lebanon which was part of the ancient land of Canaan. And she wouldn’t have spoken under previous governments as well as now with a Likud government about a two-state-solution living side by side in peace and security, but she would have already long ago annexed no ifs or buts the ancient Biblical heartland of Judea and Samaria, as China has done with Tibet in its invasion in 1950-51, especially when one considers that the impetus of the religious settlers’ movement was strengthened in consequence of the Arab aggression in 1973 . But history since 1967 (actually since 1948) looks quite different for those who are able and honest enough to see both sides of the coin and the many nuances on it.

  92. B99 said on November 8th, 2009 at 5:44pm #

    Another taste of the Father of his country.
    The Jewish Agency was further advised by Ben-Gurion in 1938 that ‘after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.” “I am certain that we won’t be constrained from settling in the rest of the country, whether out of accord and mutual understanding with the Arab neighbors or otherwise.”

    There has never been an obligation on the part of the Palestinians to recognize the ‘jewish state of Israel within those borders. As you can readily understand by my quotes of the father of your country David Ben-Gurion, the obligation is quite the reverse – that the Jews must own up to their history of committing genocide of the native natural population of Palestine. Once Jews get beyond their warped fairy-tales of how that state came into being, and come to terms with their sickness and depravity with regard to the non-Jewish natives of that country, only then can they begin to make amends towards a peace with justice. So the onus is on the perpetrators of genocide, not the victims.
    Nonetheless, Palestinians HAVE come to terms with the fact that the Jews are there to stay -and so DO recognize an Israel behind pre-67 borders. That recognition – by both Hamas and Fatah, and in fact, all 22 Arab States – is the last thing Israel wants. It gets in the way of Ben-Gurion’s original goal – an Israel in all of Palestine (and beyond). Thus, Israel has to attack the Palestinians every chance it gets so as to keep both Palestinians and Jews on a constant war footing. After all, your own leaders have admitted as much.

    There was no Moses, no ten commandments – that’s all horseshit. The reason Israel gave up the Sinai is because it almost lost the 1973 war – they got bailed out by Kissinger. It made peace under Carter because it realized that Egypt would NEVER give up the Sinai. Sadat sold out the Palestinians and was shot for it. That’s why you have managed to hold on to the WB & G to this very day – because the Palestinians were sold out. Yet, you stayed in Lebanon and Syria. THAT’s Eretz Israel on the ground.

    Long before there were some paltry Hebrew communities in Gaza, there were others living there – including the Philistines. There is NO PLACE in Israel that was not previously inhabited by non-Jews. And southern Lebanon was Phoenician as was much of Canaan. But you Ashkenazis have no claim to it – you LEFT Palestine of your own free will.

    Annex the West Bank? What do you think Israel is doing, what are you, blind or stupid? They would have done so in 48 but could not overcome resistance by Arab forces under Abdullah. So they started another war in 67 and conquered it then. What the hell are you talking about?

    There was no Arab aggression in ’73. That attack was on occupied Arab land – occupied as a consequence of Israeli aggression of ’67. The attack was on Israeli occupation forces in Egypt and Syria.

  93. Mary said on November 8th, 2009 at 9:51pm #




    The devastating Amnesty International 2009 report on water usage in the West Bank is now available (PDF file): data/images/ File/Amnesty_ water_112. pdf

  94. Mary said on November 9th, 2009 at 12:34am #

    A better link

  95. deceschi said on November 9th, 2009 at 1:28am #

    “There was no Moses, no ten commandments – that’s all …”

    We can easily infer from bullshy’s empty and ignorant rants that he suffer as a minimum from a regressive and counterproductive anti-Zionism à la old guard, and he is probably also a ill-concealed
    Jew-hater, as the most anti-Zionists are, foaming at the mouth. I wonder why he didn’t join up with his fellow friend in Gaza yet. He would finally howl and fight for his cause on the ground, not only through his anti-Israeli/Jewish paranoias.

  96. deceschi said on November 9th, 2009 at 1:39am #

    The Amnesty report is based primarly on data from the PWA. Not really a impartial source.

  97. Annie Ladysmith said on November 9th, 2009 at 2:39am #

    Do you folks realize that you go round and round in circles every time this subject comes up? Now, what do you think that means? It means: THERE IS NO SOLUTION! How can there ever be peace when you even find it necessary to carry on a posting war on the web?

    T GUY: your irrational hatred, low-brow prejudice, and your low-class vocabulary only make people think that you are a moron and probably in a prison somewhere.

    DV: i feel that racists slurs of this extreme nature should not be added to the discussion.

  98. gareeth said on November 9th, 2009 at 7:14am #

    Can someone here explain to me what the ongoing hatred is all about between Arabs and Jews? I just don’t get it. Jewish people in America are politically the most progressive and to a man will vote for the Democratic party every time. What is with all the animosity against Jews here? They are on the progressive side of everything – why all the hate?
    Take away the America factor, what is at the root of the fighting and can it be eliminated? Is it political or religious? I just don’t get it.

  99. sid wright said on November 9th, 2009 at 7:29am #

    gareeth,you are so right
    dissident voice seems now to host virulent anti-jewish,not just anti-zionist rhetoric from people like kalidas,b99,bozh and the sad mary copying and and pasting from every jew hating website she can access.
    it’s impossible to have any rational argument on any subject without someone posting that the jews are to blame.
    it doesn’t help that dissident voice itself regularly publishes articles from virulent jew haters but that is obviously the choice of the editors.
    it merely results in the website not being taken seriously by anyone expecting a rational debate

  100. gareeth said on November 9th, 2009 at 7:34am #

    Thank you for the reply. It is perplexing to come to a site and see such blatant anti semitism in a progressive forum. It is shocking to me and quite troubling. These politics are difficult to understand.

  101. Mary said on November 9th, 2009 at 7:52am #

    sid and gareeth, the good little Hasbara double act. Pathetic.

    Amnesty International jew hating? Well I never.

    You both should have been with me last week at two meetings in London. Firstly hearing of the arrest, torture and imprisonment of a boy of 14 (one of 700 each year) for throwing stones at your hideous wall and secondly hearing Dr Mads Gilbert on his experiences at El Shifa Hospital during Cast Lead. The photographs of the amputations caused by Israel’s use of the hideous DIME weapons will be forever in my memory. No child should be harmed.

  102. gareeth said on November 9th, 2009 at 9:01am #

    I am new here so what is Hasbara? And when did Amnesty International come up?

  103. Noisy Tappet said on November 9th, 2009 at 9:57am #

    Gareeth, if the Jews are so politically progressive why do they not rein in their Zionist brethren who are trashing the Holy Land and murdering its people? Yes, a good many Jews do actively oppose them and deplore what they are doing, but not nearly enough.

  104. B99 said on November 9th, 2009 at 10:44am #

    Gareeth and Sid – No “Jew hating’ here – at least not from me. On the contrary. I support a two-state solution – with Israel behind ’67 borders, and Palestine in all of the West Bank and Gaza. I also support the just resolution of the Palestinian refugee problem. So what’s racist about that?

    On the other hand, the Zionists on this website are not willing to concede that Palestinians should also have a homeland in Palestine – even as they endorse the takeover of the rest of Palestine.

    So who are the racists on DV? Not me! But quite clearly the Zionists.

  105. Mary said on November 9th, 2009 at 11:16am #

    The latest on Berlanty.
    Ma’an News

    BU hires lawyers to defend Gazan student in Israeli court
    Published today (updated) 09/11/2009 17:25

    Berlanty is a Christian Palestinian born
    in Gaza [MaanImages]Bethlehem

    Bethlehem University is following up the court case of Gazan student Berlanty Azzam deemed to be residing illegally in the West Bank by Israeli courts, a university official stressed in a radio interview on Monday.

    Dr Mousa Darweesh, assistant to the executive vice president of Bethlehem University added that the university hired lawyers to defend Berlanty Azzam’s case in the Israeli court. He promised Azzam that she will return to her studies at Bethlehem University and graduate.

    Azzam, a fourth-year business student at Bethlehem University, three credits away from graduation, was seized from a minibus on her way back from a job interview in Ramallah on 29 October. Soldiers kept her at an Israeli military checkpoint inside the West Bank for five hours, then blindfolded and transported her to the Gaza Strip, where her family lives.

    “I want to finish my college education and I’m appealing to anyone who can help me… I want to return to my books and everything at my home in Beit Sahour [near Bethlehem], Azzam revealed in an interview at the time.

    Bethlehem University, a Catholic college affiliated with the Vatican, has filed suit in an Israeli court to overturn her deportation.

  106. Bera said on November 11th, 2009 at 9:11pm #

    If you want to know when that started, read this,

    It started in WWI, then in WWII it cost the revenge price, now they want to start WW3?

  107. Bera said on November 11th, 2009 at 9:14pm #

    they betrayed Germans, just imagine like Chinese doing that in the US, then get back to Germany after the war to occupy it, lol

    The hatred started there not in Arab Land, LOL

    now they want to f…. the US, it why they look so nice in the US 🙂 smart.

  108. Bera said on November 11th, 2009 at 9:17pm #

    And for all ignorant here and jewish who don’t understand Farsi:

  109. Mary said on November 12th, 2009 at 12:27am #

    A good link there to what President Ahmadinejad actually said. It should be sent to every real life and virtual Zionist troll and to those in Tel Aviv and Washington planning the next onslaught on Muslims.

    Ref. Berlanty, I heard this report on the BBC World Service early this morning that there are as many 25,000 Palestinians living in the West Bank who are at the same risk of being rounded up and carted off to Gaza. They were there before the pass laws were tightened. An Apartheid state for sure, that gallant little state with its dirty little secret, Dimona, no longer secret thanks to the brave Mordechai Vanunu.

  110. Mary said on November 12th, 2009 at 1:06am #

    Another enduring example of man’s inhumanity to man and the Zionists ask us why they are held in such opprobrium. I remember watching the IDF attack on the Jericho prison with the use of bulldozers and couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Some rule of law!

    On October 22, Sa’adat’s isolation was extended an additional six months by an Israeli military court, after he had already spent six months in isolation. Sa’adat, the General Secretary of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, was elected to his position in 2001 following the assassination of the previous General Secretary, Abu Ali Mustafa, on August 27, 2001 by a U.S.-made Apache missile shot from an Israeli military helicopter as he sat in his office in Ramallah. He was abducted by Palestinian Authority security forces after engaging in a meeting with PA officials under false pretenses in February 2002, and was held in the Muqata’ PA presidential building in Ramallah until April 2002, when in an agreement with Israel, the U.S. and Britain, he and four of his comrades were held in the Palestinian Authority’s Jericho prison, under U.S. and British guard.

    He remained in the PA jails, without trial or charge, an imprisonment that was internationally condemned, until March 14, 2006, when the prison itself was besieged by the occupation army and he and his comrades were kidnapped. While imprisoned in the PA jail in Jericho, he was elected to the Palestinian Legislative Council. Since that time, he has been held in the prisons of the occupation and continually refused to recognize the illegitimate military courts of the Israeli occupation. He was sentenced to 30 years in prison on December 25, 2008 solely for his political activity, and has spent over six months in isolation at the present time.

    On March 18, 2009, Sa’adat was moved into isolation at Asqelan prison, facing serious medical consequences. In June 2009, Sa’adat engaged in a nine-day hunger strike against his isolation. On August 10, 2009, Sa’adat was moved from the isolation cells at Asqelan to the isolation unit at Ramon prison in the Naqab desert. On October 22, 2009, he was consigned to an additional six months in the isolation cells.

    Sa’adat’s biography, writings and statements are available at the website of the Campaign to Free Ahmad Sa’adat.

  111. sybil e bondi said on November 12th, 2009 at 7:56am #

    you are very clever b99. you must be an american to be so clever.
    i did not realise israel was the only country in the world occupying territory it won in a conflict.
    i thought that china occupied tibet,sudan occupies darfur,india occupies kashmir,russia occupies a piece of georgia but if you say that israelis the only country in the then it must be true as you are very clever and can spell correctly,apart from people’s names.

  112. b99 said on November 12th, 2009 at 11:28am #

    No Sybil – As distasteful as these situations are – none constitutes an illegal occupation. How could you not know that – unfortunately for the Tibetans – that the world recognizes China’s dominion over Tibet? Similarly, the nation’s of the world have never questioned that Darfur is Sudan, nor that Kashmir’s ruler opted to join India (albeit a poor decision). You may in the long run be correct about a piece Georgia being illegally occupied by Russia. Of course, the actual native natural inhabitants of the regions in question – the Abkhazians and Ossetians may beg to differ on the matter – they would like not to under Georgian rule. But hey, Russia may join Israel some day as an official and certified illegal occupier. Not yet though. It’s just Israel.

    PS – Don’t confuse politically distressed regions with those considered by the world to be an illegal occupation (the latter would be just this one: Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza). You don’t think illegal occupation’s are desirable traits in a nation, do you? Or is it you that is so clever as to be able to explain such a notion?

  113. AAA said on November 19th, 2009 at 4:16pm #

    I must say I have been disgusted by some of the commentators here up to the point I had to take some pills to keep me off vomitting.
    In my humble opinion, there is no difference between a human life belonging to one side or another. From what I have read till now, some respondentents think that the blood of a Palestinian is more red than an Israeli citizen.
    Human life is precious whether they are Jewish or Plestinian. Comparing numbers as some posters did here only strengthens my feeling that the one who does so does not really care human life at all. It is only an excuse to whip Israel per se.
    Jews have their full right to live in their ancestral land. Though many of them tried to assimilate in the Non-Jewish society culturally and mentally, they were always reminded that they are Jews. Many centuries were of humiliation, persecution and discrimination. With such conditions there were no other options left for the Zionists who trully saw no possibility for Jewish normal life.
    The Zionist leaders trully wished to live in peace with the Arab civilians. The innocent naive perspective of Zhabutinsky and other Zionists was that there would be a Jewish President supported by an Arab vice-one. It was Ben-Gurion who agreed to the 1947 Partition Plan whereas the Arab Leadership rejected any idea of a free Jewish state at any boundaries.
    The Palestinian population in the West Bank is ten times bigger that it was when Israel was first established. As such, no claims of any Genocide can be accepted by a rational person .
    Some posters do not know that there has been Jewish population living in the Old Palestine Land for centuries and centuries. One example was the Hebron Jewish Community which had ancient roots to the place and were slaughtered mercilessly by the Arab civilians.
    And I have not mentioned yet the insurgent Arab terror attacks on the innocent Jewish civilians in 1921, 1927,1937…..when the Jewish population was so scanty and no Jew even dreamt of having a Jewish Independent State.
    Some posters do not know that even before the occupation of the West Bank by the Israeli Army in 1967, there were endless attacks of PLO intruders who killed Israeli children sleeping in their beds or studying at school ( as in Ma’alot ). Many posters here do not know that in several occasions there were buses full of innocent people hijacked by Palestinian attackers. And what about the terror attacks on Israeli population centres at the time of the late Yizhak Rabin who wanted to make peace with all his might ?
    What sovereign entity would agree to be endlessly attacked by its enemies without retaliating or responding back ?
    Would UK agree that its citizens be attacked and not punish those who try to violate the normal course of its citizens’ lives ?
    Trying to blame Israel as the only cause for the tragic conflict between her and the Palestinians is one-dimensional and very superficial thinking.
    Jews kept their identity throughout generations not because they necessarily wanted so but because they were unaccepted by the Non-Jews.
    Blaming Jews as havivng distinctive tendencies and hate to Non-Jews is another misconstrue. Jews tried to be loyal to the countries in which they lived in. Just s an example, Jews served in the armies of the countries in which they resided. Ten percent of the Jewish soldiers who served the German Army in the First World War got killed on the behalf of their beloved ‘homeland’. Blaming the Jews of having tendencies to hate the Non-Jews reveals in itself the hatred the commentator feels towards Jews but no vice versa.
    Sorry that the empathy to the poor Palestinian people ( and they are really poor ) comes at the expense of hating Israelis and Jews.

  114. AAA said on November 19th, 2009 at 4:34pm #

    Further, I still cannot grasp in mind how some respondentents blame the Jews of having individualistic views regarding the Non-Jews and hating them so much. Historival facts tell us that the opposite was true. It was the Jews who were restricted to Ghettos in many countries they lived in. It was the Jews who were legally discriminated by the law. It was the Jews who tried to manifest loyalty to the countries in which they resided in by contributing to society inall field of life.
    I feel that some posters here are still mentally captivated by the old idea that Jews still want to drink Christians’ blood in Passover. That is a very primitive way of thinking which is still influencing some of the twisted minds here.

  115. B99 said on November 19th, 2009 at 4:48pm #

    AAA – you have no idea of what you speak. Did you make this up or do you just hop from Zionist link to Zionist link?