Goldstone Commission Gaza Conflict Findings and Reactions

On April 3, 2009, a UN press release stated:

The Human Rights Council (HRC) today announced the appointment of Richard J. Goldstone….to lead an independent (four-person) fact-finding mission to investigate international human rights and humanitarian law violations related to the recent conflict in the Gaza Strip…. The team will be supported by staff of the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights…. Today’s appointment comes following the adoption of a resolution by the Human Rights Council… to address ‘the grave violations of human rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly due to the recent Israeli military attacks against the occupied Gaza Strip.

Established by the UN General Assembly on March 15, 2006, the HRC’s 47 member states are “responsible for strengthening the promotion and protection of human rights around the globe.”

As a former South African Constitutional Court justice, Goldstone is a respected jurist. He also served as chief prosecutor for the Yugoslavia and Rwanda tribunals and is a Hebrew University board member. As a Jew, he promised to be fair and even-handed, and “hope(s) that the findings… will make a meaningful contribution to the peace process… and will provide justice for the victims.”

At the time, Israel refused to cooperate, Foreign Ministry spokesman, Yigal Palmor, saying: “This committee is instructed not to seek out the truth but to single out Israel for alleged crimes.” He then accused the Council of having “practically (no) credibility at all.”

On September 15, the HRC released the Commission’s 575 page report, titled Human Rights in Palestine and Other Occupied Arab Territories: Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict.

It covered Operation Cast Lead, the Gaza siege, the impact of Israel’s West Bank military occupation, and much more including:

  • events between the “ceasefire” period from June 18, 2008 to Israel’s initiated hostilities on December 27, 2008;
  • applicable international law
  • Occupied Gaza under siege;
  • an overview of Operation Cast Lead;
  • the obligations of both sides to protect civilians;
  • indiscriminate Israeli attacks on civilians resulting in many hundreds of deaths and thousands of injuries;
  • “the use of certain weapons;”
  • attacking “the foundations of civilian life in Gaza: destruction of industrial infrastructure, food production, water installations, sewage treatment plants and housing;”
  • using Palestinians as human shields;
  • detention and incarceration of Gazans during the conflict;
  • the IDF’s objectives and strategy;
  • impact of the siege and military operations on Gazans and their human rights;
  • the detention of the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit;
  • internal Gaza violence — Hamas v. Fatah;
  • the Occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem;
  • Israel’s treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, including excessive or lethal force during demonstrations;
  • Palestinians in Israeli prisons;
  • Israeli violations of free movement and access rights;
  • Fatah targeting Hamas supporters in the West Bank, and restricting free assembly and expression;
  • rocket and mortar attacks against Israeli civilians;
  • repression of dissent, access to information, and treatment of human rights defenders in Israel;
  • Israeli responses to war crimes charges;
  • proceedings by Palestinian authorities;
  • universal jurisdiction;
  • reparations; and
  • conclusions and recommendations.

The introduction stated that:

“The Mission interpreted (its) mandate (to) requir(e) it to place the civilian population of the region at the centre of its concerns regarding the violations of international law.”

It repeatedly tried to get Israel’s cooperation, but failed. However, it “enjoyed the support and cooperation of the Palestinian Authority (PA) and of the Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations.” Israel denied the Commission access to the West Bank and had to meet with PA officials in Amman, Jordan. “During its visits to the Gaza Strip, the Mission (also) held meetings with senior (Hamas) members, and they extended their full cooperation and support….”

The Commission’s “normative framework” was international law, international humanitarian law, the UN Charter, and international human rights and criminal law.

Information gotten included:

  • reports from different sources;
  • interviews with victims, witnesses, and others with relevant information;
  • visitations to specific Gaza sites where incidents occurred;
  • an analysis of video and photographic images, including satellite imagery;
  • medical reports about injuries to victims;
  • forensic analysis of weapons and munitions remnants collected from incident sites;
  • meetings with interlocutors;
  • information received in response to requests to provide it; and
  • public hearings in Gaza and Geneva.

The Commission conducted 188 interviews, received over 300 reports, submissions, and other documents comprising more than 10,000 pages, 30 videos, and 1,200 photographs. As much as possible, it relied on material gathered first-hand. Secondary sources were then used for corroboration. Overall, enough information was obtained “of a credible and reliable nature for the Mission to make a finding in fact.” It established clear evidence of crimes, and in almost all cases was able to determine if the acts in question were deliberate or reckless.

“By refusing to cooperate with the Mission, the Government of Israel prevented it from meeting Israeli government officials, but also from traveling to Israel to meet with Israeli victims and to the West Bank to meet with Palestinian Authority representatives and Palestinian victims.”

Commission’s Findings

A UN September 15 press release stated that the Mission concluded that “there is evidence indicating serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law were committed by Israel during the Gaza conflict, and that Israel committed actions amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity.” Examples included numerous incidents of civilians shot waving white flags while trying to leave their homes for safer locations. Other instances of Palestinians used as human shields, arbitrary arrests, and extra-judicial assassinations in Gaza and the West Bank.

In particular, the Commission noted that:

“While the Israeli Government has sought to portray its operations as essentially a response to rocket attacks in the exercise of its right of self defence, the Mission considers the plan to have been directed, at least in part, at a different target: the people of Gaza as a whole.” Rocket attacks were a pretext for naked aggression.

Calling them war crimes, the Mission found evidence that “Palestinian armed groups” launched rockets and mortars into Southern Israel, but they were minor incidents compared to the Israeli onslaught.

The Commission called the Gaza siege collective punishment through a “policy of progressive isolation and deprivation,” and that Operation Cast Lead destroyed vast amounts of Gaza infrastructure, homes, public buildings, factories, schools, hospitals, police stations, and other structures and facilities.

It cited the death toll at over 1,400, families still living in rubble, the blockade preventing reconstruction, and significant immediate and long-term trauma, especially on children.

It blamed Israel for depriving Palestinians of a means of subsistence, employment, housing, water, free movement, the right to leave and return to their own country, and access to judicial redress constituting a “crime of persecution (and) against humanity….”

Israel also violated the principles of “distinction” between combatants and military targets v. civilians and non-military ones, and “proportionality” that prohibits disproportionate indiscriminate force likely to cause extensive damage and great loss of life.

The Commission found numerous incidents of Israeli forces launching “direct (disproportionate) attacks against civilians with lethal outcomes.” These are war crimes because “no justifiable military objective” was pursued.

It cited “a justice crisis in the Occupied Palestinian Territory that warrants action.” It said Israel conducted no “credible investigation into alleged violations,” and recommended that the Security Council (SC) require it to do so and report back within six months. It further asked the SC to establish an expert independent body to oversee the investigations and prosecutions progress and refer the matter to the International Criminal Court (ICC) Prosecutor if Israel doesn’t comply.

The report concludes that the Israeli military operation was directed at the people of Gaza as a whole, in furtherance of an overall and continuing policy aimed at punishing the Gaza population, and in a deliberate policy of disproportionate force aimed at the civilian population. The destruction of food supply installations, water sanitation systems, concrete factories and residential houses was the result of a deliberate and systematic policy which has made the daily process of living, and dignified living, more difficult for the civilian population.

Richard Goldstone’s September 17, 2009 New York Times Op-Ed

Goldstone said that, “above all,” he accepted the UN mandate because of his deep belief “in the rule of law and the laws of war, and the principle that in armed conflict civilians should to the greatest extent possible be protected from harm.”

Yet Israel willfully killed hundreds of civilians as a result of “disproportionate attacks,” including on hospitals and civilian structures. “Repeatedly, the Israel Defense Forces failed to adequately distinguish between combatants and civilians, as the laws of war strictly require…. Pursuing justice in this case is essential because no state or armed group should be above the law.” Failure to do so “will have a deeply corrosive effect on international justice, and reveal an unacceptable hypocrisy. As a service to hundreds of civilians who needlessly died and for the equal application of international justice, the perpetrators of serious violations must be held to account.”

Amnesty International’s (AI) Response to the Goldstone Report

Donatella Rovera, head AI’s Operation Cast Lead investigation, called on the UN Human Rights Council to “endorse the report and its recommendations and request the UN Secretary-General to refer it to the UN Security Council. (It) and other UN bodies must now take the necessary steps to ensure that the victims receive justice and reparation that is their due and that perpetrators don’t get away with murder.” The Security Council “must refer the Goldstone findings to the International Criminal Court (ICC) Prosecutor if Israel and Hamas do not carry out credible investigations within a set, limited period.” AI added that the report’s findings are consistent with its own.

The New York Times Response to the Goldstone Report

A September 15 Neil MacFarquhar article quoted the report citing Israel’s “deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population,” but suggested that Hamas was equally culpable.

Then on September 17, it published two highly critical letters of Goldstone. One was from Richard Sideman, president of the American Jewish Committee saying:

“Richard Goldstone displays the same disregard for Israel and naivete regarding Hamas that permeates the report he wrote for the United Nations Human Rights Council.”

He then vilified the HRC as “consistently demoniz(ing) Israel while giving a free pass to some of the world’s worst tyrants, from Sudan to Iran, (and) Mr. Goldstone largely neglects what prompted Israel to act militarily against Hamas…. In sum, Mr. Goldstone’s conclusions are a disservice to the credibility of the United Nations itself.”

In the second letter, Matan Shamir, a Legacy Heritage Fellow, said Richard Goldstone is “absolutely right” about “the ‘corrosive effect on international justice’ and the ‘unacceptable hypocrisy’ of not holding Israel accountable… but through the select application of international law against one democratic nation, Israel.” By that standard, “United States troops would similarly be unable to defend themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan without being smeared as war criminals.”

On September 18, the Times ran two more anti-Goldstone letters condemning Hamas “terrorism,” defending Israel’s right to self-defense, and saying that since its founding, “Israel was plagued by attacks by rejectionist groups that continue to this day.”

It also ran a September 18 story headlined “UN Study Is Called Unfair to Israel” and quoted State Department spokesman Ian Kelly saying:

“Although the report addresses all sides of the conflict, its overwhelming focus is on the actions of Israel. Its conclusions regarding Hamas’ deplorable conduct and its failure to comply with international humanitarian law during the conflict are more general and tentative.”

Absent entirely from the Times, now and always, is an emphasis on the egregiousness of Israeli crimes, its ability to commit them with impunity, the unconscionable Gaza siege, and 42 years of oppressive military occupation and state terror against millions of Palestinian civilians. In covering a persecuted people, The Times looks the other way.

The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) Response

PCHR welcomed the Goldstone report and called for “effective judicial redress and the protection of victims’ rights.” It urged that the Mission’s recommendations be adopted to assure accountability, either through the Security Council; under the UN Charter’s Chapter VII that deals with breaches of or threats to peace and acts of aggression; or by referring the matter to the ICC for criminal prosecutions and to compensate Palestinians in accordance with international law.

PCHR stressed that normal relations can’t be conducted with states that commit crimes of war and against humanity. International pressure must be exerted to insure Israel’s compliance. The siege must be ended and reconstruction allowed to begin. So far, the international community is silent and has granted Israel impunity to act above the law.

“The results of this impunity are evident. The situation cannot be allowed to persist. If the rule of law is to be relevant, it must be upheld.” According to the UN Charter, individual states and the UN must fulfill their legal obligation “to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war….reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights… establish conditions under which justice (and) international law can be maintained, (and resolve) to maintain international peace and security….”

Other Responses from Human Rights Organizations

Rabbis for Human Rights called on Israel to take the report seriously, study its findings, and investigate charges of “violat(ions of) the laws of war as well as human rights.” Rabbi Ellen Lippmann, co-chair, Rabbis for Human Rights-North American (PHR-NA) said:

“Our colleagues in Israel have been urging Israel to launch an independent and impartial investigation of its own. As we rabbis and our communities prepare to celebrate Rosh HaShanah, our hearts and minds are turned toward Israel, hoping than an investigation will begin shortly… to work toward justice and right in Israel and at home.”

The Arab Association for Human Rights (ARABHRA) endorsed the Goldstone report’s findings of “strong evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the Gaza conflict.” It called for an end to Israeli impunity and action to hold it accountable.

“Taking into account the ability to plan, the means to execute plans with the most developed technology available, and statements by the Israeli military that almost no errors occurred, (it’s clear) that the incidents and patterns of events considered in the report are the result of deliberate planning and policy decision.”

B’Tselem said “Israel must investigate Operation Cast Lead” crimes, and called on its government “to take the report seriously and to refrain from automatically rejecting its findings or denying its legitimacy. Already it is clear that the findings of the report will join a long series of reports indicating that Israel’s actions (in Gaza) violated the laws of combat and human rights law.”

Other human rights organizations endorsed this statement including: Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), Adalah, Bimkom, Gisha, HaMoked, Physicians for Human Rights (Israel), The Public Committee Against Torture (PACTI), and Yesh Din.

Israel’s Response

Not surprisingly, Israeli officials condemned the report and dismissed it out of hand. President Shimon Peres called it “a mockery of history” and charged that it “fails to distinguish between the aggressor and a state exercising its right of self defense…. The report legitimizes terrorist activity, the pursuit of murder and death. The report disregards the duty and right of self-defense….”

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said:

“The Goldstone report is a kangaroo court against Israel, whose consequences harm the struggle of democratic countries against terror.”

Deputy Foreign Minister, Danny Ayalon, called the report “a dangerous attempt to harm the principle of self-defense by democratic states and provides legitimacy to terrorism. (It’s) a cynical attempt at role reversal in blaming Israel for war crimes instead of terrorist organizations.” He added that Israel would enlist the support of Western democracies in a campaign “to prevent turning international law into a circus.”

Defense Secretary, Ehud Barak, said the report constituted “a prize for terrorism. The comparison between those who foment terrorism and its victims is unconscionable.”

UN ambassador, Gabriela Shalev, said: “The mandate of the Goldstone Commission was one-sided from the beginning and the initiative to establish the commission came from the UN Human Rights Council, which is known for regularly and routinely condemning Israel.”

The extremist Jerusalem Post called the report “nauseating (by equating) a democratic state with a terror organization.”

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said:

The whole purpose of the report, from the moment the decision was made to write it, was to destroy Israel’s image, in service to countries where the terms ‘human rights’ and ‘combat ethics’ do not even appear in their dictionaries. I can say wholeheartedly… that the IDF is the most moral army in the world, and it is forced to deal with the most vile terrorists, who set for themselves the goal of killing women and children, and hide behind women and children.

(The report) wishes to take the UN back to the dark ages…. (It) has no legal, factual or ethical value, (and) it is a testament to the writers of the report and those that sent them.

Lieberman heads the ultranationalist/revisionist Zionist Yisrael Beiteinu (Israel is Our Home) party, and has openly called for the assassination of Hamas leaders, saying: “They have to disappear, go to Paradise, all of them and there can’t be any compromise.”

He also wants the peace process abandoned, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas ignored, and once urged that Israeli Arabs be deported and Arab Knesset members who met with Hamas or Hezbollah executed. Haaretz called him:

an “unrestrained and irresponsible man….a threat (to Israel for) his lack of restraint and his unbridled tongue (that may) bring disaster (to) the whole region.”

Like other Israeli leaders, confrontation with Iran is one of his top priorities as well as continued West Bank land seizures (including all of East Jerusalem) for settlement expansions, denying Palestinians their rights and freedom, and restricting them to isolated cantons.

New UN Report Says Israel Is Blocking Gaza’s Reconstruction

On September 18, the London Guardian reported on a leaked September UN report accusing Israel of causing “de-development” by keeping Gaza under siege, denying essential aid, and blocking its reconstruction.

From Jerusalem, Rory McCarthy wrote:

… much reconstruction work is still to be done because materials are either delayed or banned from entering the strip. The UN (Office of the Humanitarian Co-ordinator) Report, obtained by the Guardian, reveals the delays facing the delivery of even the most basis aid. On average, it takes 85 days to get shelter kits into Gaza, 68 days to deliver health and paediatric hygiene kits, and 39 days for household items such as bedding and kitchen utensils.

All sorts of essentials are either delayed or banned. The report accused Israel of “contraven(ing)” the Security Council’s January 2009 resolution 1860 calling for “unimpeded provision and distribution” of humanitarian aid.

Titled “Access for the Provision of Humanitarian Assistance to Gaza: An Overview to Delivering Principled Humanitarian Assistance,” it said:

… there has been no significant improvement in the quantity and scope of goods allowed into Gaza….The lack of construction materials, as well as equipment and material necessary for maintenance and repair of public infrastructure, has lead to a process of de-development in the Gaza Strip, which potentially could lead to the complete breakdown of public infrastructure and further deterioration in the economy.

In 2005, Israel signed an Agreement on Movement and Access (AMA) with the PA. At the time, 9,470 monthly truckloads into Gaza were considered inadequate. During June and July 2009, only 2,406 entered monthly, a 75% reduction and 80% below the June 2007 12,352 level for the Strip’s 1.5 million people.

“The result is a gradual process of de-development across all sectors, devastating livelihoods, increasing unemployment, and resulting in increased aid dependency amongst the population.”

Everything is urgently needed, but blocked from entering, including vital construction materials for redevelopment. Getting in are inadequate amounts of food, hygiene, and some other items plus what enters through Gaza’s tunnel economy.

Final Comments

For over six decades, Israeli state terror continued its tradition of blaming the victim and choosing militarism, violence, intimidation, and naked aggression over peaceful coexistence, respect for human rights, and observance of international laws and norms. Israelization and De-Arabization are fixed policies. So is the Dahiya Doctrine, named after the Beirut suburb that the IDF destroyed in the 2006 Lebanon war. It calls civilians a strategic target “at the heart of the enemy’s weak spot,” and for using disproportionate force against them, their property, and infrastructure.

Arabs are thus disenfranchised, denied rights, and deemed inferior as subhumans. Israeli policy is confrontation, conflict, oppression, impoverishment, displacement, slow-motion genocide, and state terror to depopulate historic Palestine for Jews only.

Operation Cast Lead was the latest episode, but Gaza remains isolated under siege. The West Bank is under military occupation. Land seizures, arrests, random killings, torture, checkpoint restrictions, home demolitions, crop destruction, permits, economic strangulation, and incarcerations occur daily, yet the world community is silent. The Goldstone Commission offers the latest evidence of what’s persisted for decades. Holding Israel accountable is essential. It’s high time world bodies and jurists demanded it.

Stephen Lendman wrote How Wall Street Fleeces America: Privatized Banking, Government Collusion and Class War. Contact him at: lendmanstephen@sbcglobal.net. Also visit his blog site and listen to The Global Research News Hour on RepublicBroadcasting.org Mondays from 11AM-1PM US Central time for cutting-edge discussions with distinguished guests. All programs are archived for easy listening. Read other articles by Stephen.

80 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. john andrews said on September 22nd, 2009 at 2:44am #

    Can anyone explain to me how people who are indoctrinated from birth about being the victims of genocide casually go on to commit genocide themselves? What sort of chemical imbalance or wiring defect causes that? I don’t understand.

  2. Ismail Zayid said on September 22nd, 2009 at 7:12am #

    The war crimes committed by Israel in its barbaric assault on Gaza nine months ago have been documented and confirmed by a variety of independent and Israeli human rights groups, and their effects are still there to be witnessed. Yet, we still see Israel and its apologists contiue their denials and prevarications.

    Does international law and international humanitarian values have any standing in Israeli consideration?

  3. kalidas said on September 22nd, 2009 at 7:19am #

    Ponerology 101.

  4. Danny said on September 22nd, 2009 at 7:22am #

    But in any criticism, one has to respect the boundaries of truth. Look at Goldstone’s many factual and methodological errors: http://samsonblinded.org/blog/goldstone-report-the-rebuttal.htm

  5. b99 said on September 22nd, 2009 at 8:05am #

    John Andrews – Must be a variation on the Stockhom Syndrome.

    Actually, it is very material – it’s a quest for more land and the resources it contains. Saddam tried it with Kuwait, Milosevic with Bosnia, Indonesia in Timor, King Hassan of Morocco in Western Sahara, China in Tibet and Xinjiang, etc. The biggest difference is that the Jews have been able to scam millions, through Biblical mythology and scapegoating, of the moral righteousness of their conquest and bribe/blackmail most of the rest (US political/media leaders). But we know what Lincoln said about fooling all the people all the time – so we shall see!

  6. John Henry said on September 22nd, 2009 at 8:11am #

    I love the smell of naked antisemitism in the morning…..

    b99 wrote: “…the Jews have been able to scam millions, through Biblical mythology and scapegoating, of the moral righteousness of their conquest and bribe/blackmail most of the rest (US political/media leaders)…”

    Oh the Goldstone report was utter bullshit. Forgone conclusion before it was written. Trumped up “witnesses,” corrupt UN. You name it.

    Not worth wiping one’s behind with.

  7. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on September 22nd, 2009 at 8:44am #

    john andrews,
    apodictically or of a necessary truth, there must be a way to find out how a melange of peoples [a hundred+] become convinced that they are chosen by a or their god.

    There is no truth, justice, fairness, wisdom but there, perforce, must be a desirable truth, fairness, justice, etc.
    Of course, there is desirable truth for 003+% of people and another for 98+% of world’s people.

    Apodictically, there also must be a way to desist from warfare and most or all human-made iniquities.

    However, one can be certain that the ruling classes everywhere wld not allow, let alone finance the study or discusion of known and postulated causes for warfare, lack of desirable health or any other care, much needed interdependence, etc.
    tnx
    Some twenty yrs ago i’ve written to nytimes, vancouver sun, and many other papers about the study and discussion of causes for warfare, poverty, other iniquities, etc., but not a single paper wld publish my missives.
    And, of course, had i been an editor, i wldn’t also!

  8. b99 said on September 22nd, 2009 at 9:35am #

    So John Henry – you’d have preferred I said Zionists? If one uses the term Palestinians when referring to Palestinians why wouldn’t one use the term Jews when referring to Jews? Why go with a euphemism? Besides, who do YOU think is behind the great press and free pass Israel gets in the US – the Bulgarians? Really, tell me – who else is behind it?

    Hey, you know Goldstone is a Zionist Jew. Imagine if the report had been done by an objective party! I think that makes YOU a racist.

  9. Max Shields said on September 22nd, 2009 at 10:16am #

    I really don’t think Israel suffers from anything that cannot be found in the human genome around the globe. That it has concentrated itself in a time and place, is not new either.

    Whether Goldstone is a Zionist Jew (and he acknowledges as much) is immaterial; except it makes the work Zionist a bit slippery.

    The only thing special here is the fact that “we” treated it as a “special” case, both those in the government who can’t seem to distinguish between a “friend” and a “genocidal pyschopath”, but than how could a congress that regularly pays for war over peace ever make such a distinction.

  10. Max Shields said on September 22nd, 2009 at 10:54am #

    Not to change the subject, but to acknowledge the elephant in the “room”. Most who post here are citizens of a nation-state who has killed millions just since the end of WWII (the last constitutionally declared war).

    This is not news, but it continues to this very moment; i.e., NOW.

    Where do we begin to ask ourselves how do people who call themselves “lovers of peace, justice, human rights, democracy…” come off killing millions of souls, many children, and most civilians?

    Do we have NO fu>king shame? We make Israel, shit, we created the preditory state, a little butcher nation what it is. It is the fu*cking USA and it’s policies that pomotes, shields and enables the killing of 10s of thousands of Palestinians…but in sheer numbers it is nothing compared to the butchery the US (yah, you and me) commit daily.

    So holocaust be damned. Look in the fuc$king mirror if you want answers!!!

  11. b99 said on September 22nd, 2009 at 11:24am #

    Max – It does matter that Goldstone is a zionist Jew. If such a person can find Israel in gross violation, what argument can pro-Israelis make against him? They can be nothing but dismissive of the report – as they are here.

    The US did not make Israel. Britain made Israel. The US did not become the major factor until the Johnson Administration.

    You can speak for yourself, but I can safely say that I have virtually no influence over US policies that result in butchery.

  12. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on September 22nd, 2009 at 12:19pm #

    US had made a mistake; it shld have favored romas for the warrior volk.
    Their ROR to india or right to settle empty palestine shld have been honored instead the unsteady, feckle, and cowardly slavo-germano-caucasian admixture of peoples.

    Romas wld have been far more reliable in defense of democracy, human rights, liberties, sam’s interests, etc., and it wld have cost far less since romas live so frugally: a toad or frog in a tent [cooked or not] cld have easily fed tentful of people.

    Romas have suffered so many iniquities at the hands of christians and talmudniks, they surely wld never dare oppress let alone kill anyone.
    But there is still time to give romas a land of their own. It’s worth a try!
    Obama, are u listening?

    The other day my small head asked me, What’s zionism? i neve mentined that word!
    Now multiply my small head with ab. one or two bn small heads around the world and u’d hear from two bn small heads, Zionism? Never heard of that! And if it is not ab. make up or skirts, or hilton don’t bother telling me! OK!??!

  13. Max Shields said on September 22nd, 2009 at 12:49pm #

    B99 you seem to read what you want to read. You’ve pretty much mangled my whole point…and correcting you may be an impossible task, but here goes…

    First, your first point about Goldstone is nearly irrelevant to what I posted. I merely stated it really is unimportant if he is a Zionist in response to the tenor of the general posts above mine. Ok?

    Now as to Britain making Israel, and what was Truman’s role? Here read some history: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/cwr/97177.htm

    But the more important point, lost on pedantics like B99, is that it is the US who is the protectorate of the State of Israel. This is seen by deed and word since the creatin, perhaps it was upped a notch with Johnson.

    As far as the butchary, if you stopped paying taxes than you may excuse yourself from the 60 years (and I’m not counting all that came before) of low-intensity murders in Central America, the slaughter of 3 million Southeast Asians in the 60s/70s, the on going destruction of democratically elected leaders, the slaughter in Iraq, and Afghanistan, Somolia, South America, Iraq and Balkins and the list goes on and on (and that’s just in the latter part of the last Century up until now.

    As far as influence over US policies, your right, you have little, but you have even LESS regarding Israel.

  14. b99 said on September 22nd, 2009 at 1:39pm #

    Mangled YOUR point?! What, about the ‘tenor’ of the posts here?? No, it DOES matter that Goldstone is a Zionist Jews regardless of your inability to clearly pinpoint who or what you are addressing or your interpretation of what the tenor is. What are you, the moderator?

    As for the US making Israel, posting a link to the US role only confirms my point. Britain was involved with creating a Jewish state even before the Balfour Declaration in 1917. And so you show me a link to post war involvement of the US. There very likely would be an Israel without US cooperation, there would definately be no Israel without the Brits.

    So eff you butthole, incapable of conversation without vitriol. So understand this Mr Ahistorical. Britain made Israel possible before WWII. Both Western Europe and the Eastern Bloc made Israel a success after WWII. The US role gradually increased at the expense of others but not until Johnson (and the ’67 war) was US support crucial. It was not ‘upped a notch’ by Johnson – he believed entirely in Israel and it was during his administration that support for Israel took off. It was Johnson who (unlike Eisenhower in ’56 war) who knew Israel was about to attack in ’67 and it was A-OK with him.

    That’s all guilty white-boy crap. This country is run by forces you and I have no control over. It is run by political and economic elites. I’ve participated in all manner of protest all my life and that’s good enough for me. If you haven’t been paying attention, or you still feel guilty about mass-murder because you’ve only pushed a bio-regional approach – that’s your baggage – the rest of us keep working for a better society. If you think that only by not paying taxes you are not guilty – then by all means do us a favor and not pay them.

    What you are talking about is privilege – privilege of living in America. But then again, you don’t believe in privilege, so who knows where your little troubled mind is.

    As far as the Palestinians go, I’ve always said they are on their own, we can only take our leads from them. You however, knowing nothing of the Palestinian situation, and now it is clear, nothing of regional history – enjoy calling the shots for them. Idiot.

  15. Deadbeat said on September 22nd, 2009 at 3:22pm #

    Max Sheild writes…

    Not to change the subject, but to acknowledge the elephant in the “room”. Most who post here are citizens of a nation-state who has killed millions just since the end of WWII (the last constitutionally declared war).

    This is the heart of the Chomskyite rhetoric that reads essentially to use the “Guilt By Association” fallacy to absolve Israel. The U.S. is the world’s worst tyrannt and ALL her citizens are responsible therefore Israel is innocent is pretty much the rhertoric.

    This is also the rhetoric of the neo-malthusians who blame ALL PEOPLE for the planet’s problem by dismissing INEQUALITY which is the REAL problem. Essentially Max’s and Chomsky’s rhetoric takes the crooks off the hook.

  16. Shabnam said on September 22nd, 2009 at 5:59pm #

    Excellent DB. You have understood it very well. Iran is a nation state and has not invaded or attacks any other country for more than 200 years. On the other hand Israel before and since its inception has been engaged in assassination, invasion, stealing land from Palestine, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and now Iraq. Israel has committed war crimes against humanity since its erection. Chomsky and his ilk still are trying to fool American people by holding ‘imperialism’ responsible for the crimes of Israel so they can protect the interest of ‘Jewish state.’ THEY HAVE NO SHAME. They should read what Brzezinski has recently said. Contrary to Chomsky’s misleading explanation, Brzezinski said: Obama Administration Should Tell Israel, U.S. Will Attack Israeli Jet if They Try to Attack Iran.
    Chomsky is trying to sell Israel war as American war; therefore, he is engaged in propaganda camping to hide the role of the fifth column, Jewish lobby, in foreign policy decision making in the Middle East and North Africa. No one buys it anymore, not even some of the Zionist Jews.
    Israel wants to use American resources and power to wage another war, this time against Iran, to expand her interest in the region, NOT AMERICAN’s INTEREST. Brzezinski is so angry at Israel that two days ago said if Israel flies over Iraq to reach Iran, Israeli’s PLANE WILL BE SHUT DOWN. If Israel is just a client state then why does not obey the ORDER?

  17. Max Shields said on September 22nd, 2009 at 6:13pm #

    Deadbeat, So the US is not an empire who has been killing millions, and is in the process of doing it now?

    Is it a “Chomsky” notion that the US has been and continues to?

    You are an apologist for the biggest war machine in human history!!!

  18. Deadbeat said on September 22nd, 2009 at 7:26pm #

    Max … Noam … Shields … Chomsky

  19. Hue Longer said on September 22nd, 2009 at 7:28pm #

    If it was in “US interests”, it’d all be OK?

  20. Mulga Mumblebrain said on September 22nd, 2009 at 7:59pm #

    Trust the racist John Henry to simply deny the massacres we all saw with our own eyes. You would have made a good Nazi, Johnno, although even the Nazis lacked the sublime arrogance of the Judaic Herrenvolk in simply dismissing all their crimes, out of hand. It is strangely ironic too, don’t you think, that the Zionists, so keen to pursue deniers of the Nazi Judeocide, are such arrogant, recidivist and crude deniers of Israel’s multitudinous crimes against morality and decency. I put it down to the gargantuan narcissism and self-adulation of people who really do see themselves as superior to the rest of humanity, and openly contemptuous of the lives of non-Jews, even children. That this species of pitiless and murderous racists is armed to the teeth with thermo-nuclear weapons, and their society increasingly dominated by religious fundamentalist zealots who openly proclaim that killing civilians is a ‘mitzvah’ or good deed, in other words a religious reasponsibility, is deeply, deeply, chilling.

  21. Deadbeat said on September 22nd, 2009 at 9:09pm #

    If it was in “US interests”, it’d all be OK?

    Hue … Howard … Longer … Zinn

  22. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on September 23rd, 2009 at 2:03am #

    mugla–i always like to see you are aware of the strength of israel and how pathetic your rants are

    That this species of pitiless and murderous racists is armed to the teeth with thermo-nuclear weapons

  23. Hue Longer said on September 23rd, 2009 at 2:03am #

    Very cowardly, illogical and paranoid, DB. I’ll still take the implications regarding your lack of answers to sincere questions (which I’ve had to defend with no results in getting you to answer) as debatable, but I can see your ways as worse for understanding Zionism than had you just kept your loud trap shut.

    Max,
    The common answer I’ve ran across from those who insist all is Israel (DB never answers if he feels this way about Empire prior to ’48), is that certain families have always controlled the purse strings and machinations of power and that these families ultimately are to blame regardless of the Teddy Roosevelt’s drooling over Filipino timber. I am COMPLETELY open to learning more about it and not so sure it is far fetched…The problem is how most the people discussing it make circumstantial ad hominem almost unavoidable on my part.

    I guess Zinn is in for me, you Chomskyite!

  24. Max Shields said on September 23rd, 2009 at 5:50am #

    Hue, the Deadbeat mantra is like calling everyone a racist to shut them up when they criticize Obama.

    Although I have differences with Chomsky, in many respects, not a bad association. Same goes for Zinn.

    This chatter about Chomsky (and Zinn and Finkelstein) is a big red herring. If there is a point to be made regarding their “true” sentiments it has been exhaustively made thousands of posts ago. There is absolutely no value in repeating it over and over and then pretending the US Empire doesn’t exist and that it has not been one long endless war of choice with self-proclaimed “evil” for most of it’s existence right to this moment.

    Deadbeat writes on about how the Zionists killed the anti-war movement and then writes as if the US is just an innocent by-stander, in no more need of an “anti-war” movement than Switzerland.

    Amazing!

    Shabnam, I’m not familiar with the recent remarks from Brzezinski regarding Iran, but you can be very certain that he is a cold warrior who simply calculates where, when and how to use military force for US interests around the globe. So, he has a pragmatic view of Iran, that doen’s buy him anything in the world of peace and justice.

  25. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on September 23rd, 2009 at 7:14am #

    This bears repeating: no protest to date had ever, to my knowledge, even delayed a war let alone prevented or stopped once under way.
    To bring back troops from afgh’n, the Left and the Right must unite for this aim.
    We may need 50-150mn americans engaging in protests, marchings, and passive resistance in order to end the american occupation of even one land.

    In my experience as a member of the vancouver org. StopWar.ca, ‘jewish’ members have behaved negatively to some degree towards its basic aims.
    Basically, we were against solving int’l disputes by war.

    Members of StopWar.ca were many orgs and individuals like me. It seems that ‘jews’ cld not or wld not get along with pal’ns or vice-versa. At one time, the acrimony btwn these two groups was so high, ‘jewish’ chair ended the meeting.

    Natch, no ‘jew’ wld admit that s/he joins an org in order to spy on us or to severely lesssen its effectiveness.
    Then there were socialists who held outreach meetings while just a few of us held banners throughout the city, passing also leaflets, talking to people, etc.

    I do not know how many multos [multiethnics] are against the first tsunami and or how many are for rectifying the expulsion.
    My experience tells me that there are very few of the multos who wish for a win-win solution. My guess is one in oneK to 100K.

    In my mind there is no doubt that chomsky, zinn, finkelstein, et al have joined peace effort in order to lessen its effectiveness in eliciting a s’mwhat win-win result.
    This may be the only way to a good or even excellent peace! tnx

  26. Shabnam said on September 23rd, 2009 at 8:20am #

    Barak Obama, the Zionist puppet, has just finished his talk at the United Nations. It was truly a Zionist plan where he read it. We use to say in the past SHARON WRITES, BUSH READS, now WE CAN SAY DENNIS (ROSS) WRITES, OBAMA READS. He had only ONE LINE ON PALESTINE, and that was the Palestinian must stop sending rockets into Israel, so we can negotiate a comprehensive peace, meaning TO MAKE ARAB WORLD TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL, in return WE ASK ISRAEL, (Politely if Israel can afford!!!) TO STOP BUILDING MORE SETTLEMENTS. Shame on Obama who thinks we are a fool. He can fool no one except himself since he has chosen to be the manger of the empire which is directed by the Zionist interest. All people of the region must be united against the Zionist interest which is pushed upon the world through proxy. He is talking about a world with no nuclear weapon but he leaves out more than 25000 of his, Russia, and Israel. There was no mention of Israel nuclear weapon at all, more than 250 of them, and he treats Sudan EXACTLY LIKE “SAVE DARFUR”, a Zionist campaign against Sudan. SHAME ON ALL ZIONIST PUPPETS. WE NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, ACCEPT THIS ZIONIST PLANAND IF THEY ATTACK US, ALL PEOPLE OF THE REGION, GOING FROM AFRICA TO ASIA WILL MAKE SURE THAT ZIONISTS AND ITS PUPPETS BE DESTROYED FIREST BEORE DESTROYING US. THE SPEECH WAS PEACE OF GARBAGE, TRULY REPRESENTIVE OF AN EMPIRE. According to the latest survey, “World Public Opinion” MAJORITY OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE HAVE NO TRUST IN OBAMA AND THE UNITED STATES.More than 80 percent of the Iranian People trust Ahmadinejad and believe in his legitimate re election. So Obama has nothing in his hand to deliver for his masters, the Zionist Jews. Everyone can see the chain of Star of David around Obama’s neck. Take off the chain, then talk. To summary of Obama’s talk was:
    Iran is the threat and must be dealt with it. Iran is the irresponsible party. THIS IS A ZIONIST TALK WHERE WAS DELIVERED BY ONE OF ITS PUPPETS, BARAK OBAMA. Shame on America and American who allow a fifth column, Jewish Lobby, determine their direction toward a Zionist war. NO ONE BUYS OBAMA’S RUBBISH.

  27. Max Shields said on September 23rd, 2009 at 9:27am #

    What gives the lie to Deadbeats constant hurang about Max Shields and Chomsky is this very important distinction, one Deadbeat finds impossible to either grasp or would prefer to make his whole “argument” about Zionism void or substantitive content, is this:

    Chomsky, like many here and elsewhere, are proponents of a two-state “solution, one that ensures a Jewish/Zionist State. I have clearly made this a major issue due to the reality on the ground:
    1) neither the Zionist government nor Hamas want a two-state solution except to the extent that it can be used like a ball of yarn by a cat – a play thing and nothing more to keep appease the West.
    2) the region cannot sustain two-states.

    Aside from this, I do not think a two-state solution, once you peel away the fuzzy symbolism, is a just solution. It would, at best, sanction more of what exists, a bone which keeps the Palestinians relatively landless with minimal resource access. If a two-state solution were feasible and were equitable, then it would ensure that Palestinians have per capital access to resources which would completely and thoroughly undermine the state of Israel.

    Only a regional solution, once that acknowledges the carrying capacity of the region, realizing that migration out of the region is inevitable because it cannot continue to sustain the growing concentration of population between two distinct peoples, a two state simply exhaserbates this.

  28. Doug Page said on September 23rd, 2009 at 11:49am #

    In California Democratic Politics in the 50s and 60s, my Jewish friends were the leaders in civil rights, peace and progressive politics in general.
    Then came the 1967 Israeli-Egyptian War and suddenly my Jewish friends gave Israel their first priority and ever since, have supported Israel “no matter what is Israel does.” Even today, the peace movement is immobilized because many American Zionist Jews insist that the peace movement ignore and make an exception for the appalling Israeli wars of agression in Gaza. Retired Professor Marshall Windmiller collected and analyzed the main stream press accounts of American Zionist Jews in their domination of local and national politics and their effect on the peace process. His article about this tabulation, and his conclusions are well worth reading Google “Israel Lobby and the Peace Process” by Marshall Windmiller to read it.

  29. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on September 23rd, 2009 at 12:51pm #

    SHABNAM. i would recommend the stuff below.it’s very good and will soothe the pain
    you’ll probably feel a lot better after that
    trust me

    Preparation H Hemorrhoidal Cream, 1.8 oz. (51g) tube – Large Size

    Helps shrink swelling of irritated hemorrhoidal tissues.

    Gives prompt temporary relief from the painful burning, itching and discomfort of hemorrhoids.

    Indications: Temporarily shrinks hemorrhoidal tissue and gives temporary relif of the itching, burning and discomfort associated with hemorrhoids.

    Directions: Adults- When practical, cleanse the affected area by patting or blotting with an appropriate cleansing tissue. Gently dry py patting or blotting with toilet tissue or a soft cloth before application of Preparation H. Apply externally to the affected area up to 4 times daily, especially at night, in the morning or after each bowel movement. Preparation H is to be applied externally or in the lower portion of the anal canal only.

    Preparation H comes with a special dispensing cap to help you apply it properly.

    Active Ingredient: Petrolatum 18%, Glycerin 12%, Shark Liver Oil 3%, Phenylephrine HCI 0.25%

  30. Shabnam said on September 23rd, 2009 at 12:55pm #

    Doug Page thank you very much for your honesty. I have the same experience because I was ignorant with the Zionist Jews history. Now, I know what the real problem is. The ‘left’ in the west is phony. All so called progressive and ‘leftist’ leadership are Zionist Jews who keep you busy with non essential matter in order to protect the interest of ‘jewish state.’ Today Obama, the zionist puppet, promised two fucking states, one the “jewish state” and the other….. well we don’t know that yet. Palestinian must stop shooting the toys, rocket into Israel, and then we may do something. No person on earth recognizes Obama, the puppet, as a leader, only the racist Zionist Jews who have no connection with Palestine or the region are on his sides. They are from the black sea area. Either Germany must give their best part of their land to these racists, as the Saudi King said before 1948, or America give New York to these racists. We do not accept these liars. Palestine is for the Palestinian and Hebrews, their brothers and sisters.

  31. Danny Ray said on September 23rd, 2009 at 2:23pm #

    MEBOSA RITCHIE,

    You disgust me with your cultural insensitivity, I cannot believe that you would offer our friend Shabnam, Prep H, He is a proper Arab and they hate women so they only sleep with pigs so either his mother was a pig or his father was and everyone knows that pigs aren’t afflicted with roids. Besides if he did have them the old men he offers his ass to would have them massaged down to nothing by the time he was six.

  32. lichen said on September 23rd, 2009 at 2:43pm #

    Since the Iranian government killed/arrested/scared all dissidents into silence, they now can put forth bs ‘polls’ showing consensus for right-wing iranians/climate-change deniers to post online. Yay for them.

  33. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on September 23rd, 2009 at 3:02pm #

    shabnam,
    a good observation by u anent the fact that the multos with the cult have no connection with any hebrew tribe!

  34. Deadbeat said on September 23rd, 2009 at 3:08pm #

    Max Shields writes …

    Hue, the Deadbeat mantra is like calling everyone a racist to shut them up when they criticize Obama.

    Amazing and I thought it was “anti-Semitism” that shuts down discussion.

  35. Deadbeat said on September 23rd, 2009 at 3:11pm #

    Doug Page writes …

    In California Democratic Politics in the 50s and 60s, my Jewish friends were the leaders in civil rights, peace and progressive politics in general. Then came the 1967 Israeli-Egyptian War and suddenly my Jewish friends gave Israel their first priority and ever since, have supported Israel “no matter what is Israel does.”

    And thus if Max Sheilds truly want to help the Palestianians he would address what Doug Page bring forward. He won’t because in order to maintain his priveleges he has to shift the narrative in order to defend his beloved Zionism.

  36. B99 said on September 23rd, 2009 at 3:13pm #

    Now Max is calling for a regional solution, i.e., a union of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine and Israel, (National anthem – “Kumbaya”?) though paradoxically he also says the region cannot sustain two states.

    Max is also claiming that Hamas favors the destruction of Israel (despite having read a dozen or so quotes to the contrary). In this accusation Max agrees with other Zionists on this site who do not trust Hamas.

  37. Shabnam said on September 23rd, 2009 at 3:25pm #

    Many Zionists are coming to this site to save the apartheid state. I am glad to tell all that the Jinnee is out and cannot be sent back to where it was. The Zionist liars must consult a recent poll by “World Public Opinion” where was conducted by phone asking questions from Iranians in all 30 provinces to establish the following:
    Most Iranians express acceptance of the outcome of the Presidential election. Eighty-one percent say they consider Ahmadinejad to be Iran’s legitimate president, and 62 percent say they have a lot of confidence in the declared election results, while 21 percent say they have some confidence. Just 13 percent say they do not have much confidence or no confidence in the results. In general, eight in 10 (81%) say they are satisfied with the process by which authorities are elected, but only half that number (40%) say they are very satisfied.
    AHMADINEJAD HAS OVER EITHTY-ONE PERCENT APPROVAL RATE AND HAVE NO DOUBT THAT HE IS THE LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT OF IRAN. COULD YOU SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT THE PUPPET OF ZIONISTS, BARAK OBAMA?

    Only 16 percent of Iranians say that have confidence in OBAMA to do the right thing in world affairs.

    This shows that NO ONE IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD TRUST OBAMA AND HIS MASTERS, ZIONIST JEWS. It is obvious that millions of American people feel EXACTLY THE SAME.

    Despite your destabilization plan and velvet revolution plot, Iranian people have exposed the Zionist inside out. You must learn your lessons better next time, before trying to fool others because it does not reach the target rather comes back at you who send it in the first place.

    http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/639.php?nid=&id=&pnt=639&lb=

  38. Don Hawkins said on September 23rd, 2009 at 3:26pm #

    John Bolton was on Fox today and said that Obama and his speech today at the UN sold Israel out. Is that true because I don’t know as try to focus on one human race ending event at a time. I do remember when George Monbiot tried to arrest John Bolton awhile back with no success.

  39. lichen said on September 23rd, 2009 at 3:56pm #

    Yes, right wing Iranians who come to this site to spread pro-government propaganda wish to label anyone and everyone that is not also a right wing nationalist as ‘zionist.’ There only interest in politics revolves around the ideology of ‘antizionism’ in which everyone who has any disagreement with them whatsoever is labeled as a zionist. Anyone who beleives in the public’s right to protest is a zionist, anyone who voted for someone other than the winning candidate is a zionist, anyone beaten up, murdered, or exiled by the morality police was a zionist. Everyone and everything is run by zionism, which can be proved by false statistics. They even think that climate change is a “distraction” if not a zionist conspiracy, while the real issue is only Palestine, and nothing else. Of course they don’t like the western left, who have different values than they do, including questioning one’s government.

  40. Don Hawkins said on September 23rd, 2009 at 3:59pm #

    John Bolton also said today that Obama at the UN almost said to the Countries today, why can’t we just get along and Bolton thought this a dangerous way of thinking. Unless that thinking can start there will be no need to get along.

  41. Deadbeat said on September 23rd, 2009 at 4:29pm #

    lichen writes …
    Yes, right wing Iranians who come to this site to spread pro-government propaganda wish to label anyone and everyone that is not also a right wing nationalist as ‘zionist.’

    There are Leftists who happen to agree with those you label as “right-wing Iranians”

  42. Mulga Mumblebrain said on September 23rd, 2009 at 4:48pm #

    Well done Danny Ray and Mebosa for raising the tone of this discussion. I think that your vile abuse and sneering hatred so beautifully express the Zionist mentality of unlimited hatred and contempt that they ought to be published widely, so that people can judge just what evil it is that the world faces in Zionism and Judeofascism.

  43. Deadbeat said on September 23rd, 2009 at 4:48pm #

    Sorry posted the wrong link. Here are the correct links…

    http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/hp240709.html

    http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/hp030809.html

  44. Deadbeat said on September 23rd, 2009 at 4:50pm #

    Quote from article …

    One principle that we stress is that the Iranian election was Iranian business, not the business of the Western left, especially the left in a country like the United States, which has been intervening continuously and destructively in Iran for years and which is still, in alliance with Israel, threatening Iran militarily.

  45. Danny Ray said on September 23rd, 2009 at 5:56pm #

    Always happy to please you Mulga

  46. Max Shields said on September 23rd, 2009 at 6:54pm #

    B99 (your posts are sounding childish and churlish)

    I’m not including Syria or any of the other countries you mentioned.

    I’m including what I’ve always included the land occupied by Israel and including the West Bank and Gaza. I’m referring to that as a region (I’ve referred to it previously as a bio-region). So, please stop it with the distortions. And if your follow up argument is more of the same, why not just stop reading what I post…because your responses are not only boring but totally invalid with regard to bio-regions.

    That said, of course Hamas favors the elimination of the Zionist state; and the Zionists would like to see Hamas (and most Palestinians) pushed into oblivion. You deny this deep animosity? It is the premise upon which Zionism was exported to the region.

    Is there an attempt to play this two-state thing out for all it’s worth? Apparently. But both sides know better, know the truth. Israel continues to settle and Palestinians continue to increase their population. This is an unsustainable trajectory by any sane estimate. The per capita resources used by Israel far and away exceed those of ever larger population of the Palestinians. Again, this is an unsustainable trajectory. The state of Israel demands enormous doses of fossil to keep its engine of the “modern industrial state” lubricated. this is an unsustainable trajectory.

    Two states on this trajectory is only imagined by delusionists. The rest who sell this are just playing for time; which is a fools errand.

  47. b99 said on September 24th, 2009 at 10:43am #

    max calls for a regional solution as it is one bioregion but now wants to exclude the countries that would be required to make up such an entity. Max thinks that by making Jews and Palestinians live together he has created a bioregion. That of course means Max has no understanding of that region and what it would take – namely, all (actually parts of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine and Israel. Max then goes on to put Hamas and Israel in the same boat of mutually desired destruction – as if Hamas had not gone to GREAT PAINS to state otherwise and had not gone to GREAT PAINS to hold to a long term TRUCE (Hudna) with Israel – which Israel broke because it is Israel that wants no Palestinian state, not Hamas. (See today’s article by Littlewood).

    Does ANYBODY think that Israel, which is busy foreclosing on what is left to Palestine, is going to instead agree to union with Palestine (or perhaps Max’s bioregional union of parts of all the surrounding states?) Does Max think that by adding the WB to Israel that their fossil fuel needs will somehow be met? (If anything, the new state, er, bioregion would likely lose its guarantee of US oil supplies). And, hmm, is this the only place in the world that suffers from a paucity of oil and so somehow the ‘peace process’ has to revolve around fossil fuels? (Maybe Kosovo and Serbia could get along if they just included talk of fossil fuels in place of who got there first?)

    So what we have is Max agreeing with Mebosa on the hostility of Hamas towards Israel, and calling for a pseudo-bioregional entity that includes something less than a bioregion, but includes an Israel bent on mass murder of its neighbors and who will form this region because oil supplies are going to run out for them (as if they were not already buying 99.5% of their oil even now).

    Get a grip.

  48. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on September 24th, 2009 at 12:25pm #

    There appears, at least to me, only planetarianism. There is no longer an amerika, americanism, nationalism, or americans.

    As far as today’s or future planetarian rule goes, it will remain as it had been for the last 10k yrs: a plutocratic one.
    Thus it won’t matter if one is a pole, nepalese, algerian, kurd, or israeli, et al, but if of low{er} class, one will as always before have near-zero politico-military power.

    And what might not change as well is that world plutos will be much interdependent and lower classes much dependent. Going after independence amounting to a hunt for illusional unicorn.

    In short, serfdom-slavery for 98% of world pop and for the rest a nice lofty nest. tnx

  49. Deadbeat said on September 24th, 2009 at 1:18pm #

    Max Shields represents the very kind of muddled thinking that has stymied the Left these past 30 years. Which I call “Chomskyism” — a tribute to the master of syntax and the maestro of obfuscation.

    Such rhetoric is not designed to help the Palestinians and has severely weakened the Left in the United States and had done MORE damage than the hard right because the rhetoric creates a tremendous amount of confusion and conflict among activists.

  50. lichen said on September 24th, 2009 at 2:36pm #

    The rhetoric of NO ONE in this thread helps the Palestinians. No one is here doing something productive on their part or behalf or somehow “for them.” You can talk about whatever you want, but don’t delude yourself that posting on DV helps or hurts the Palestinians.

    Deadeat’s rhetoric is typical of the far-right that wishes to attack the left and all left actions/movements any chance they get, and is completely sectarian, perfectionist, condescending, and bound up in insanely stupid analysis.

  51. Max Shields said on September 24th, 2009 at 2:49pm #

    lichen, right again!

  52. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on September 24th, 2009 at 3:27pm #

    All wars start from words. To obtain peace anywhewere, one starts the process with words.
    We’ve lost adults. So we use the words that kids or teens understand or use the only language they know and that appears home, baseball, football, etc., english.
    And let’s avoid of talking to them about any ism and especially not “zionism” as no one knows what that animal is but we all know what the land robbers do: murder, rob people of land and their possessions.

    I have once talked to my small head about zionism. She said what is that? I never again used that word.
    There are some 100mn small heads in US; probably one in 10K has heard about it; and to make matters more muddy, from larry king, chomsky, lieberman!
    But there are people even on DV who suplant simplicity, which even kids understand with a lofty complexity.
    After all, clinton and obama have used verbal brilliancies for just that purpose, so that women [and most men] and children wld never understand or see what really is going on. tnx

  53. B99 said on September 24th, 2009 at 3:30pm #

    Yes lichen – posting here by anyone does little to nothing about anything. Whatever the issue, it requires activism – and even that is likely not the source what galvanizes a population to change. I assume you have been an activist since you were old enough to be one. I assume everyone here is. I might be wrong. Unless you have millions of dollars to spare – that’s all you can do. DV is for venting, much less for organizing. I also think that it not essential to travel to Palestine to be a positive force – yet it makes a big difference in outlook. But expect no miracles.

  54. Deadbeat said on September 24th, 2009 at 3:50pm #

    lithen writes …

    The rhetoric of NO ONE in this thread helps the Palestinians. No one is here doing something productive on their part or behalf or somehow “for them.” You can talk about whatever you want, but don’t delude yourself that posting on DV helps or hurts the Palestinians.

    Then why are you here and why does the editors post the authors they do if it has no effect. Clearly the reason people are here are to obtain perspectives that you don’t get from the mainstream — not even from the “mainstream left”. Whether there is some real motion from the perspectives presented here is doubtful however with all of the censorship that exist it is refreshing that I at least can obtain perspectives that IMO are extremely necessary and important counterweights that the Left especially has been spewing forth for decades.

    If those perspectives upset you then perhaps you need to do some introspection. What HAS hurt the Palestianian has been the meekness and psuedo-activism disguised as support for the status quo and most especially excuses to avoid confronting Zionism in the United States who support for the racist regime knowns as Israel to this day still harms the Palestianians.

    This forum and the DV editors has provided a COUNTERWEIGHT to the kind of Chomskyite psycobabble that has kept the Left in a state of confusion and disruption.

    Deadeat’s rhetoric is typical of the far-right that wishes to attack the left and all left actions/movements any chance they get, and is completely sectarian, perfectionist, condescending, and bound up in insanely stupid analysis.

    Unfortuantely lichen your rhetoric is typically of the LIBERAL crap that has been going unchallenged for decades and it is time that people on the left realize how not only ineffective it is but how it has maintained divisions.

  55. lichen said on September 24th, 2009 at 4:12pm #

    Deadbeat, you said: “Such rhetoric is not designed to help the Palestinians and has severely weakened the Left in the United States and had done MORE damage than the hard right because the rhetoric creates a tremendous amount of confusion and conflict among activists.”

    Your words implied that your rhetoric helped the Palestinian’s, while Max’s supposedly hurt them, which is ridiculous; as is the idea that zionism is what brought negative results for the labor, civil rights, and movement toward socialism inside the US; as opposed to, perhaps, the entrenched system that allows the economic/political elite to control the media, elections, and thus pretty much the entire system we live under? If zionism wasn’t here, it still would have turned out this way.

    I won’t let you muddy the waters by pretending you didn’t say what you did and that I was making an unprovoked comment, or that you are somehow with the dv editors more than I am. But yeah, keep turning your ideological fury on the people (those of us on the left) who want and are trying to do something against the system.

    Bozh is right about the folly of ism’s, and B99 has it correct that we need to all be activists, using whatever time we have on new and creative actions, not just trying to formulate the ‘perfect’ rhetoric and insulting anyone who doesn’t fall in line with it.

  56. Deadbeat said on September 24th, 2009 at 9:01pm #

    lichen writes ….

    Your words implied that your rhetoric helped the Palestinian’s, while Max’s supposedly hurt them, which is ridiculous;

    How so. Max’s voice is the DOMINANT voice on the Left. It is certainly not the majoritarian otherwise Zionism which is a racist ideology would have a HUGE movement within the U.S. No such movement exist. In fact the Left has been complicit in making certain that any challenge to Zionism remains diffuse. Any increase of AWARENESS of Zionism and its role and influence of American political economy means increasing the possibility of confronting this racist ideology WITHIN the United States. Such a movement against Zionism START with increasing awareness OF Zionism within the U.S. Increasing that awareness also helps ALL people of color who face racism.

    You lichen clearly seem oblivious to that with your rhetoric and mislabeling. Your think is extremely muddled like ALL LIBERALS.

  57. Deadbeat said on September 24th, 2009 at 10:49pm #

    should be …
    It is certainly not the majoritarian otherwise Zionism which is a racist ideology would have a HUGE movement against it within the U.S. No such movement exist.

  58. Deadbeat said on September 24th, 2009 at 11:07pm #

    Lichen writes…

    I won’t let you muddy the waters by pretending you didn’t say what you did

    Lichen you are one full of pretense here. I never shy away from my position as an anti-racist. And I do not IGNORE that fact that the ROOT of Zionism in the Middle East is the SUPPORT FOR Zionism in the United States. What I find pretentious is all the pious crap coming from you and Max Sheilds about how much you want to help Palestianian and do NOTHING but OBSTRUCT and OBFUSCATE the horrible effect of United States Zionism.

    Max likes to spout how much oppression is ROOTED in the United States but take NO stance or even the recognition (like Chomsky) of the growth of the power and influence of Zionism in the UNITED STATES. Not Zionism in the Middle East but IN THE USA!!!!!!!!!

    If you fail to recognize that then you are either naive or an obfuscator. Thus a true REACTIONARY. And it is that reactionaryism that has weakened the Left and has people extremely confused. Which is exactly what those who want to maintain and advance Zionism wants.

    And it that hurts your feelings then lichen you have a real problem.

  59. bozh said on September 25th, 2009 at 6:23am #

    Multos who in 1897 wanted to rob pal’ns by murder and expulsion were militarily to quite a degree powerless to obtain that.
    Once they began getting arms from christian lands, they became stronger than the entire arab world.

    This leads to a conclusion that the land robbers are still much dependent on christian lands for arms and/or refined metals. It appears isr has no ore mines.
    Generally speaking, a dependency get’s its orders from the people on which the dependent depends.
    In isr, the cannon fodder since ’49 appears s shemitic folk with talmudic law which christians, i guess, reject.

    In talking ab. the ISM, much of import is left out. Talkng ab. white multos with talmudic cult or their connection to the people with the cult, is a different issue.

    We all know that the multos are the most prominent segment of US pop; thus have some influence in also foreign affairs.
    Having said that, i affirm that uncle sam now, was uncle sam during slavery, lynchings, segregation, racism [domestic/foreign], some 170 wars, etc.

    And add to this that 99% of all americans are even today strongly against one state or s’mwhat win-win solution, one can’t see what multos really change in US long-standing foreign and domestic policies.

    Actually, it wldn’t be far fetched to proffer a conclusion that the white ‘jews’ [this means they have no connection to judea from which label “jew” derives] if not despise, at least don’t care much ab. any shemites, including ones with mosheic or talmudic cults.

    I don’t think they are in love with orthodox, chabad-lubavitch, hassides, conservatives, et al clazies. And most telling, 10mn whites do no not live in isr and some are even leaving isr or have dual citizenships.
    These are ominous signs for present cannon fodder in isr. tnx

  60. bozh said on September 25th, 2009 at 6:51am #

    Well, folks!
    U haven’t noticed yet that what is going on in afpak, iraq, palestine, somalia appears obedience training?

    True, the trainer appears much unhappy. It had gone well in jordan, egypt, morocco, emirates, oman, yemen, bahrain but not so well in lebanon, saud.
    Sit’n in afgh’n and iraq appears chaotic; the shangrila lands neeeding many more trainers. Some say, nato needs 500K of them just in afgh’n.
    Next year, in new orleans! tnx

  61. Shabnam said on September 25th, 2009 at 12:09pm #

    [And it is that reactionaryism that has weakened the Left and has people extremely confused. Which is exactly what those who want to maintain and advance Zionism wants.]

    Palestinian agree with this assessment according to the following:

    Dr. Norman Finkelstein spoke on Friday September 26, 2008 to a predominantly Muslim audience at the Islamic House of Wisdom in Dearborn, Michigan. I’d liked a few things I’d read by and about him. His style was engaging and he had generally good things to say – that is, until he started giving the audience practical tips. He said that while his PhD dissertation was about Zionism, we should not get into “ideological conversations about who is a Zionist.” What mattered was focusing on stances on torture and house demolitions. He also advised that Palestinians be “reasonable” and consider compensation instead of their full rights.

    I challenged him on this point during Q&A in that opposing occupation without condemning Zionism is like opposing slavery without condemning white supremacy, and that we American taxpayers and participants in the genocide of Palestinians (whether intentionally or not) should have more humility than tell Arabs whether or not to discuss the ideology behind their dispossession. Otherwise, we would look like gatekeepers on the discourse.

    Finkelstein became angry insisted that we not engage in “Starbucks discussions” about Zionism! He referred to Chomsky as an example of someone who should not be considered an enemy in spite of their Zionism. Then he deferred to the Palestinian academic sitting next to him who said he agreed with Finkelstein; that Arab nationalism was no longer useful; and that he even supported a Kurdish state! It was unclear why he supported Kurdish nationalism, the existing mode of which divides a war-torn Iraq and serves imperialism, but not Arab nationalism.

    With all due credit to his bravery as an academic who lost his career to stand up for (some of) Palestinians’ rights, Finkelstein is not the primary victim of Zionism. Palestinians are, and for them discussion of Zionism is not an armchair philosopher’s debate. To suggest to Arabs not to discuss Zionism is disturbing (while nobody tells Jews and Roma not to discuss Nazism, or African-Americans not to discuss white supremacy). This is what happens when Arab leaders who unequivocally oppose Zionism are either martyred, imprisoned, defeated or sold out.

    http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/09/07/2-views-on-norman-finkelsteins-putting-zionism-off-limits-in-the-debate/

  62. Suthiano said on September 25th, 2009 at 1:31pm #

    Similar to the experience of Shabnam:

    I went to see a lecture on the “Israeli-Palestine conflict” at Ryerson University on wednesday. Dr. Juan Cole (Engaging the Muslim World) was the guest speaker.

    With security guards standing at the doors, Dr. Cole presented an 1:20 minute powerpoint presentation on how “statelessness” was the key issue in the “mid-east crisis”. According to him “statelessness” trumps “refugees” and “terrorism” as the major catalyst for the “conflict” (he couldn’t see how all three were caused by zionism). He drew some important premises and provided a decent background history for the time allotted.

    He diligently avoided discussing: hamas, nakba, right of return, israel lobby… he showed no images or videos of israeli terrorism… he referred to “Cast lead” as a “the war last winter”… He claimed, without any evidence, that Ahmedinejad had rigged the election… he constantly talked about a “two state solution”.

    In the question period we were told to raise our hands. The questions asked were not biting and the responses provided were long and pedantic.

    One quiestion was asked bout “AIPAC”, to which Dr. Cole responded “I don’t see how 2% of the U.S. population could be that influential.” and “the christian evengelicals are a much larger group”.

    He did not mention that the biggest christian zionist group “Christians United for Israel” (CUFI) is run by the likes of:

    Gary Bauer (on executive board of CUFI): was a PNAC (project for new american century) signatory, and has hosted a show with former Jerusalem Post CEO and President Tom Rose.

    John Hagee (head of CUFI): who also owns Global Evangelism Television has been given awards for his work by the likes of B’nai B’rith and the Zionist Organization of America.

    David Brog (executive director of CUFI): an American Jew who served as chief of staff to Arlen Specter, and staff director of the Senate Judiciary Committee, after having been an executive for America Online, and practicing law in both Israel and the U.S.

    My hand was raised for the whole question period, but I was never selected. my friend sitting two seats over was also ignored.

    THe last question was awarded to a 65 year old Jewish man who began his question “you seem to have painted the Palestinians as good and the Israelis as bad, but you don’t talk about little boys with bomb belts…”

    Not only did Dr. Cole take this as a serious question, he promised before he even started his answer that he would allow for a rebuttal. NO ONE ELSE HAD BEEN GIVEN A REBUTTAL, AND THERE WAS ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE TIME FOR ONE MORE QUESTION!

    I objected to that by letting Cole know that there were others with far more serious questions who were waiting, and yet he was allowing a rebuttal to this bullshit diversion.

    Dr. Cole told me I was out of line.

    Dr. Juan Cole ended the lecture by turning to the zionist section of the crowd and bargaining “but just think about a seperate palestinian state, they would be your natural market! you could make so much money off of them!”.

    Dr. Juan Cole is a farce and yet another example of how the academic “left” is an obstruction to progress. No one should take his opinion seriously because he is a hack academic who doesn’t do any real research and doesn’t understand how power works (or more likely, just doesn’t wish to challenge it).

  63. lichen said on September 25th, 2009 at 1:35pm #

    Oh really, deadbeat, Max’s philosophy about a one-state bioregion of Palestine is the dominant perspective of the US left? You really think that? What that clearly shows, yet again, is that you have no experience, no real contact with the grassroots ‘left’ which you so disdain. Your continued sarcastic references to my feelings (as if I am vulnerable emotionally on this site) and resistances that because you are anti-racist that excuses any line or action you wish to take are both equally ridiculous, but highlight the fact that, as you said to me before, you believe anything is acceptable under the flag of an ideology.

  64. Shabnam said on September 25th, 2009 at 2:40pm #

    Thank you Suthiano sharing your experience with us.
    I should inject this fact that Juan Cole is a BAHAI. Baha’ism and Zionism share a common interest. I have not seen, personally, a Bahia who is critical of state of Israel or Zionism. Payam Akhavan, who teaches law at Mc Gill university and one of the supporters of Zionism and interest of state of Israel and the West, is a BAHAI and close to Shireen Ebadi, a servant of the West in Iran where his daughter has reportedly been converted to Baha’ism since Payam Akhavan is her advisor at Mc Gill university where she is studying in the same department where Akhavan works, the ‘Human Rights.”

    Juan Cole like other Zionists, including Noam Chomsky and Payam Akhavan, a liar, have used Chatham House’s analysis of Iranian election to present the election AS FRAUD and stood behind the ‘velvet revolution’ like Payam Akhavan against Iranian people.
    Recently, an independent new survey from “world public Opinion” exposed the lie of Bahia and their ally, Zionism, to tell the world that more than 81% of Iranian people support re-election of Ahmadinejad and they are confidence that his re-election was legitimate.

    Bahia’s are STRONG ALLY OF ZIONISM AND THE STATE OF ISRAEL. The following is a short history of Baha’ism in the Middle East.

    Baha’i faith was originated in Iran (Persia) and has strong connection with the great powers to expand the influence of Baha’ism. Majority of Baha’i in Iran were JEWS and majority of Baha’is are supporter of state of Israel and Zionism and their ‘prophet’ is located in Hiafa, Israel where is like Mecca to Muslims.

    The Bahia leaders have received supports and awards from their masters, British and other powers, for their services, like Zionist Jews, and have given their strong supports to creation of state of Israel on land of Palestine. They have STRONG CONNECTION WITH ZIONISM AND ISRAEL. They use the victimization card, like Zionist liars, to expand their influence around the world. They have strong program to bring more converts to their house, house of justice, where no justice can be found. I was, personally, approached by Baha’i many times when I was a high school student to convert to
    Baha’ism which I refused.

    Following the sufferings of the Iraqi Muslims at the hands of the rebellious Baha’is, the Ottoman government upon a request by the Iranian ambassador in Istanbul Mirza Hussein Qazvini, who later became the chancellor, exiled the Babis to the remotest areas of the Ottoman territory. They were later sent to Adrianopole where the Babis refer to as the… secret land. It was in Adrianopole where Bahaollah laid claim to Bab’s mantle as the Awaited One and rejected his brother Mirza Yahya Sobh-e Azal. When the seditious role of the Babis was revealed to all foreign governments, the French decided to take advantage as well. To this end, the deputy consul of the French embassy secretly met Bahaollah and held talks with him. It was in this meeting that the French official, according to Kavakeb-ud Dorriyeh, asked Bahaollah to apply for French citizenship so that they could support him. It is obvious that the objective of the British and French governments by offering citizenship to Bahaollah was to dispatch him to areas such as India on behalf of the British and to Algeria on behalf of the French governments in order to promote schism in Muslim land.
    After the Azalis and Bahais split, Mirza Hussein Ali was sent into exile to Akka(Palestine) where he stayed until he died in 1892 and was replaced by his son Abbas Affendi.
    During the leadership of Abbas Affendi, the Ottomans were embroiled in military hostilities with the British, and since Abbas Affendi was an advocate of the British government, he would collect military information in Akka and Haifa. He would also provide the English forces with the required foodstuff.
    After the Ottomans found out that Abbas Affandi and his followers were spying for the British government in Palestine and that he was a British mercenary, as Shoqi Afandi has asserted in his book Qarn-e Badi the commander-in-chief of the Ottoman government Jamal Pasha decided to execute Abbas Afandi for his espionage acts. But Britain in an open support for Abbas Affandi, commissioned the then Foreign Minister Lord Balfour to send a cable to the commander of the British corps in Palestine General Lord Allenby, stressing protection for Master Abdol Baha (Abbas Affandi), his family and his friends.
    The possible arrest and execution of Abbas Affendi was reported to Lord Cruiseden by Jamal Pasha but General Allenby in a pre-emptive action, seized Haifa and cabled to London: “Palestine was seized today. Inform the world that Abdol Baha is alive.”
    The British commander who seized Haifa in 1918 had been commissioned by the British Empire to meet Master Abdol Baha upon his arrival in Haifa and the British king DECORATEDE him with Knighthood.
    The British Empire DOES NOT DECORATE A PERSON FOR NO REASON. BAHA WAS THEIR A G E N T as many claim.
    Shoghi Effendi, was appointed head of the Bahá’í Faith after Abbas Affendi, from 1921 until his death in 1957. He was born in `Akká (Palestine), since the British allowed the Bahai to settle in Palestine against the will of the indigenous population, in March 1897. Shoghi Effendi was related to the Báb through his father, Mírzá Hádí Shírází, and to Bahá’u’lláh through his mother, Ḍíyá’íyyih Khánum, the eldest daughter of `Abdu’l-Bahá. From the early years of his life, Shoghi Effendi was greatly influenced by `Abdu’l-Bahá, who provided much of his initial training.
    The Baha’is, through Shoghi, played their role in establishment of Israel in the heart of ARAB LAND where no one voted for the partition of Palestine and establishment of a Jewish state, not even non Arabs such as Turks, Greeks, or Iranians.
    On July 9, 1947, Shoghi Effendi received a letter from the chairman of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine requesting a statement on the relationship, which the Baha’i¬ Faith has to Palestine and the Baha’i¬ attitude toward any future changes in the status of the country.
    Effendi gave the following response:
    “The position of the Baha’is in this country is in a certain measure unique: Whereas Jerusalem is the spiritual center of Christendom it is not the administrative center of either the Church of Rome or any other Christian denomination. Likewise although it is regarded as the second most sacred shrine of Islam, the most Holy site of the Muhammadan Faith, and the center of its pilgrimages, are to be found in Arabia, not in Palestine. The Jews alone offer somewhat of a parallel to the attachment which the Baha’is have for this country, inasmuch as Jerusalem holds the remains of their Holy Temple and was the seat of both the religious and political institutions associated with their past history. But even their case differs in one respect from that of the Baha’is for it is in the soil of Palestine that the three central Figures of our Religion are buried and it is not only the center of Baha’i¬’ pilgrimages from all over the world but also the permanent seat of our Administrative Order, of which I have the honor to be the Head.”

  65. Suthiano said on September 25th, 2009 at 3:18pm #

    thanks for the history shabnam. I was entirely unaware of it.

    could it be more than a coincidence that in Toronto the Baha’i church is a stone’s throw from Miles Nadal Jewish Community Centre, and even closer to other predominant Jewish organizations such as the Zukerman Family Foundation (http://zukermanfamily.com/profiles.htm) and the University of Toronto?

  66. Shabnam said on September 25th, 2009 at 4:08pm #

    Suthiano

    The following is very interesting about the relations between Bahai and the state of Israel:

    “I prefer that the youngest religion i.e. Bahai Faith grows and expands in the most newly country in the world i.e. Israel. we belong to this place and have attachment to each other and in fact it must be said that the future of us and Israel is like the rings of one chain connected to each other.”

    Aparently, the Jewish backgrund Bahai CAN NOT TEACH THEIR RELIGION IN ISRAEL AND NO PUBLICITY ABOUT IT. The zionist Bahai, like Payam Akhavan, go only after Iran. Shame on liars.

    http://bahaifact.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/bahaism-and-israel/

  67. Deadbeat said on September 25th, 2009 at 5:00pm #

    lichen writes …
    Oh really, deadbeat, Max’s philosophy about a one-state bioregion of Palestine is the dominant perspective of the US left?

    Lichen you avoid the real issue with your bait and switch of Max Shields position. Max Shields support of the one-state solution is totally irrelevant when at the same time you are excusing and failing to confront United States Zionism.

    I see lichen you have no comments to both Shabnam’s post regarding Norman Finkelstein and Suthiano’s post about Juan Cole. Both men whose opinions are referred to an sought out by the Left. Unfortunately both of these men represent the dominant role of diverting the Left from any anti-racist confrontation of Zionism and would prefer to make excuses that conceals up Zionism.

    Apparently lichen it seem you have the same DOMINANT preference of making excuses for Zionism rather than confront the issue. It really shameful lichen that you take such a horrible stance.

    As Suthiano writes …

    Dr. Juan Cole is a farce and yet another example of how the academic “left” is an obstruction to progress. No one should take his opinion seriously because he is a hack academic who doesn’t do any real research and doesn’t understand how power works (or more likely, just doesn’t wish to challenge it).

    The academic Left has been a major source of obstruction progress for decades by construction narratives that has prevent any real confrontation of racism in the U.S. What has happen is that politics has been ceded to the reactionary forces because the Left has been made ineffective via bogus and pedantic analysis.

  68. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on September 25th, 2009 at 5:42pm #

    deadbeat,
    In view of the fact that ab. 98% of americans voted for more of the land thieving and puppetizing of iraq, afpak, and palestine, it is nigh impossible for uncle samuel [or maybe by now shmuel] not to use that kind of Das Kapital to further augment his domain.

    With ab. 98+% of fiercely zionistic people in US, roughly 600-700K true leftists cannot even reach shamuel let alone change his mind.
    Every ‘jew’ is a ‘zionist’. One cannot but be a ‘zionist’ [read please land robber -murderer] if s/he deems self a “jew”.
    “Jew” does not symbolize nationality nor ethnicity; it symbolizes solely a belonging to a cult. tnx

  69. lichen said on September 25th, 2009 at 7:20pm #

    Deadbeat, I don’t care to read any “points” that shabnam makes, and no, I’m not interested in an academic, ideological, and deeply paranoid/finger-pointing discussion of zionism. I don’t think attacking chomsky or finklestien because they use a different rhetoric than you do means or anything or is relevant, or proves anything. The one state solution of an ever-increasing israel is still the only one “on the table.” You don’t do anything more than chomsky or max or finklestien do. But good luck with your far-right friends and their solutions for israel.

  70. Deadbeat said on September 25th, 2009 at 8:19pm #

    lichen’s response exemplifies why Zionism has grown in its influence in the United States …

    I’m not interested in an academic, ideological, and deeply paranoid/finger-pointing discussion of zionism.

    Such an attitude and lack of concern is exactly racism continues. When people like lichen are confronted and have to face their contradiction …

  71. mary said on September 26th, 2009 at 2:58am #

    New on the Bricup site

    Leading representatives of Israeli academia are rallying to the
    Government campaign to deny the charges in Justice Goldstone’s report on war crimes in Gaza.

    Professor Asa Kasher author IDF’s ethical code defends the ‘most moral army in the world’ and Dr. David Altman, Senior Vice-President, Netanya Academic College accuses Goldstone of being like a collaborator with the Nazis.

    Read in full
    http://www.bricup.org.uk/news/AcademicsVsGoldstone.htm

  72. mary said on September 26th, 2009 at 3:18am #

    David Miliband is the UK Foreign Secretary and sometimes referred to as The Boy Wonder. He has over 100 relatives living in Israel and a brother Ed who is a NuLabour Minister i/c of climate change policy. You could say that the brothers Miliband are well embedded in the USUKIs alliance.

    The Palestine Solidarity Campaign are asking for e-mails to go to David Miliband to support the recommendations of the Goldstone report.

    ‘The PSC encourages you to respond to the call by Amnesty International to email David Miliband in the run up to the UN Human Rights Council who will debate the report next Tuesday (29 September), when a vote will be taken on how the recommendations in the Goldstone report should be acted upon.

    Amnesty understand that the UK Government (a member of the council) is NOT planning to support key recommendations. Instead, they appear to be taking a lead from the US Government in dismissing the findings.

    Visit the Amnesty website to send an email to David Miliband now.

    Justice in Gaza – Article by Richard Goldstone on his report

    And Richard Falk’s comment on the report

    Live links on
    http://www.palestinecampaign.org/Index7b.asp?m_id=1&l1_id=2&l2_id=14&Content_ID=849

  73. Suthiano said on September 26th, 2009 at 11:50am #

    “I don’t think attacking chomsky or finklestien because they use a different rhetoric than you do means or anything or is relevant, or proves anything.”

    It’s exactly what is important. Difference in rhetoric is the difference between “the one state solution is the endgame and so it is inevitable and desirable”, versus, “there is something that needs to be done, and it can be done, and it starts with confronting zionism (christian and jewish) head on.”

    This is very different. One is simply a group of people talking about the future, and the other is people taking a stance on the values they want to be the basis of the future. It seems, lichen, that you would value land theft.

    “But good luck with your far-right friends and their solutions for israel.”

    If you consider me “far-right” you’re delusional. In fact you’re whole sense of the spectrum is a big delusion. if you’re a “leftist” you support big government with centralized power…. this is basically what the world is moving towards: one world governance… it should be a wet dream for you, because eventually everyone will be equally unable to create change: equality for all to be indoctrinated to believe that there is no difference between pedantic highly rhetorical discussion and confrontation.

    cheers

  74. Deadbeat said on September 26th, 2009 at 11:39pm #

    bozh writes …
    With ab. 98+% of fiercely zionistic people in US, roughly 600-700K true leftists cannot even reach shamuel let alone change his mind.

    I don’t believe that Americans are Zionist. Like Juan Cole says where really talking about “2% of the population” who we be categorically Zionist. The problem is that Zionism (the ideology) has been allowed to flourish unchallenged and if Zionism was referred to truthfully as a racist ideology like white supremacy then I think the attitudes of American towards Israel would be much different. It is preventing the framing of Zionism as a racist ideology is what the Left-wing academics prevent which in turn circumvents a real challenge and confrontation.

    Lacking any real confrontation and stymied by the “anti-Semetism” label, Zionism has been permitted to flourish especially in the United States. These academics, IMO are even more complicit than the hardcore Zionist. At least you know where the hardcore stand. The academics unfortunately use pretense to win trust but only in the end corrupts the discourse.

  75. Hue Longer said on September 27th, 2009 at 12:54am #

    DB,

    US Americans have a problem with white supremacy or just the label, “white supremacy”?

  76. Deadbeat said on September 27th, 2009 at 2:38am #

    US Americans have a problem with white supremacy or just the label, “white supremacy”?

    Both.

    And the failure of the Left to avoid challenging Zionism has stunted any challenge to White Supremacy as well. Left-wing Zionist have put the facade of appearing to speak out against White Supremacy because they do have an interest against White Supremacy because traditionally White Supremacist are also anti-Semitic. But the fear that Left-wing Zionist have is that a struggle against White Supremacy will extend into a struggle against Zionism (which is a racist ideology). This is why you have academics icons like Noam Chomky, Norman Finkelstein, Juan Cole, etc refusing to equate Zionism=Racism.

    I’m not sure what your angling at Hue but thanks for giving me the opportunity to link how the failure to confront Zionism in the U.S. also contributes to the weakening of the struggle in the U.S. against White Supremacy.

  77. bozh said on September 27th, 2009 at 7:30am #

    deadbeat,
    One may also toy with the idea that there is no longer zionism, imperialism, but a much more grander theft/larceny which i call “planetism”.

    It seems to me that world plutos appear united like never before not only to obtain the planet, but also to eradicate all basic human rights; includes also the rights to live, ROR, to be informed, schooled, etc.
    And thus establish permamently their millennial quest for master-serf/slave structure of society.

    Thus, zionism, a theft of land on small scale by christo-talmudic gangsters, melts away into the grander cabal.
    Thus to confront small and large theft of land with murder we need onside world armies, spy agencies, clergy, educators, media, clergy, artists, et al.
    In short, the very planetists intent on murder, etc.
    tnx

  78. Hue Longer said on September 28th, 2009 at 2:10am #

    DB,

    No one likes to be called a racist and every KKK punter hates it as much as any Zionist… but not liking the notion of “White Supremacy” certainly doesn’t mean US Americans are not racist; By design and result, for most of them they most certainly are.

    Again, if you’d like to make the argument that certain families have controlled everything (including innocent racism) in the America’s since Europeans first starting killing, raping and enslaving the “New World”, go for it and I’m open to it like I’m open to it like anything else. But without that, no way does any of your “Zionism is the root of all evil in the Good ‘ole USA argument hold (Please don’t run away by again misusing strawman).

    (on a side note: I thought it was bizarre how you used caps, multiple exclamations and ad hominem while poorly describing your understanding of “reactionary”)

  79. mary said on September 29th, 2009 at 2:01am #

    U.N. group: Gaza acts amounted to war crimes

    U.N. group to present scathing report on Israel’s conduct during Gaza offensive
    updated 7 minutes ago

    (CNN) — A United Nations group will present a scathing report Tuesday on Israel’s conduct during its military offensive into Gaza that began late last year.

    The U.N. Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict is headed by Richard Goldstone.

    In the report, released earlier this month, the U.N. group accused Israel of committing “actions amounting to war crimes, possibly crimes against humanity” during its military incursion into Gaza from December 27 to January 18.

    The group, called the U.N. Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, is headed by South African judge Richard Goldstone.

    Goldstone is scheduled to present the 400-plus page report to the U.N. Human Rights Council in Geneva Tuesday.

    The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights will present her own report after Goldstone.

    Goldstone’s report also found that Palestinian militants committed war crimes, but the overwhelming majority of the report’s criticism targets Israel.

    Israel did not cooperate in the investigation.

    The Israeli Foreign Ministry issued a statement earlier saying Israel “did not feel able to cooperate with the Fact Finding Mission because its mandate was clearly one-sided and ignored the thousands of Hamas missiles attacks on civilians in southern Israel that made the Gaza Operation necessary.”

    Don’t Miss
    Abbas praises Obama, slams ‘Israeli intransigence’
    Commentary: Mideast peace talks going nowhere
    Gaza acts amounted to war crimes, U.N. report says
    Rights group: Israeli offensive killed mostly civilians

    The report claims that the Israeli Defense Forces “failed to take feasible precautions required by international law to avoid or minimize loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.”

    The U.N. report also said Israel fired the chemical agent white phosphorous in civilian areas, intentionally fired upon hospitals using high-explosive artillery shells, and failed to provide effective warnings to civilians or U.N. workers before attacks. It also claims that Israel used Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately attacked Palestinian food supplies in Gaza.

    The report recommends that the U.N. Security Council require the government of Israel to launch appropriate independent investigations into the findings of the report within three months. The findings also recommend that the alleged Israeli war crimes be explored by the International Criminal Court’s prosecutor.

    The findings also call on the Palestinian leadership to investigate alleged war crimes, for militants to respect humanitarian law, and for the release of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit on humanitarian grounds.

  80. mary said on September 30th, 2009 at 11:26pm #

    Ehud Barak has been in the UK and attended a function at the Labour Party conference in Brighton hosted by the Labour Friends of Israel lobby group. Legal attempts to have him arrested for his war crimes were thrown out by a District Judge following guidance from the Foreign Office (proprietors Brown and Miliband, both Zionists) that he had diplomatic immunity.

    One brave MP Richard Burden challenged him in person.

    PRESS RELEASE FROM RICHARD BURDEN MP
    Labour MP for Birmingham Northfield
    Chair, Britain-Palestine All-Party Parliamentary Group

    Date: 30 September 2009

    LABOUR CONFERENCE: MP CONFRONTS ISRAELI MINISTER OVER WAR CRIMES CHARGE

    Richard Burden MP last night confronted Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Barak at the Labour Party Conference. Mr Burden called on him to respond to the findings of the recent UN report that Israel committed war crimes in Gaza during ‘Operation Cast Lead’.

    Mr Burden, Chair of the Britain-Palestine All Party Parliamentary Group, also presented the Israeli Minister with a copy of the group’s report of a fact-finding visit to Gaza earlier this year. The report highlights the impact of Israel’s actions in deepening the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

    Mr Barak’s appearance at Labour’s conference in Brighton had already attracted widespread protest. As Defence Minister in the current and previous Israeli Government, Ehud Barak was directly involved in planning and executing Israel’s attack on Gaza between December 2008 and January 2009. Mr Barak is named in the report by Judge Richard Goldstone which is being discussed this week at the UN’s Human Rights Council in Geneva.

    Speaking from Brighton today, Mr Burden said:

    “Israel chose not to cooperate with the UN investigation, even though it was conducted by someone as eminent as Judge Goldstone.

    “Now Israel is trying to rubbish Goldstone’s conclusions before the ink in his report is barely dry. They even say the United Nations had no mandate to investigate allegations of war crimes in Gaza in the first place. That is just not good enough. If the United Nations has no mandate to uphold international law, then what does it have a mandate to do?

    “Goldstone’s findings are serious and the international community cannot ignore them. If war crimes were committed in Gaza – by whatever side – they must be held accountable. It is not acceptable for Israel to demand the international community takes action against attacks on civilians by Palestinians but refuse to face up to its own responsibilities for the atrocities in Gaza last winter and for the continuing humanitarian crisis caused by the ongoing blockade.

    “If Israel continues to refuse to face up to its own responsibility to investigate these things properly and to bring those responsible to justice, the UN Security Council must do so itself – by referring the issue to the International Criminal Court. The UK’s commitment to human rights means we should be at the forefront of making that happen.”

    NOTES TO EDITORS: In February Mr Burden led the first UK Parliamentary delegation to Gaza to see first hand the results of the conflict there. A copy of the delegation’s report is available online here: http://www.richardburden.com/palestine-report-2009