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	<title>Comments on: The Machines Change, the Work Remains the Same</title>
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	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79672</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That was one great speech last night from the leader of the free world and as he started the flashes of light from the cameras in the crowd that look to be in the thousands caught my eye then after words on Fox New&#039;s it was was it a good speech how did he do analyzed to the last word. I wonder how many of the thousand&#039;s in that rather large building last night know about this and in just a few year&#039;s will be taking pictures alright of a different kind. 

 {http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_stddev_timeseries.png}

  To find that little chart you go to NSIDC web page much knowledge almost forbidden knowledge in some circles and as the ice goes so goes life on Earth. Yes cold here in the States a reason for that and if you look at that chart the ice in the Arctic is anything but normal. It sure look&#039;s like more tuff winters ahead and the summer&#039;s will not be boring I guess for one or two day&#039;s a year Spring and fall will be normal. In Germany record snow for December then kind of a rare warm up and bingo flooding. California with the snow pack over 200% of normal let&#039;s see in a few months. Can this be slowed yes but not with words well maybe if the word&#039;s were tax carbon just maybe keep growth to zero maybe a few word&#039;s from some researchers hay that might just work let&#039;s try it. Maybe a few word&#039;s between China and the States not about who control&#039;s the Pacific but how to survive. Please can we have order in the House, please Senators can we take your talk off the floor order please can we have order. 

 
So we either abandon the industrial model of development based on the concentrated energy in fossil fuels or we face a significant human die-off in a grim future that is within view. Abandoning that industrial model means a sudden shift in human living arrangements that would be unprecedented in history. We have to redefine what it means to live a good life, dramatically lowering our energy use and reducing our expectations about the material goods we consume.  Jensen

  And boring it will not be nice cup of coffee game of checkers red or black who would like to be first and heck pick one stone, straw, soul...............................]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was one great speech last night from the leader of the free world and as he started the flashes of light from the cameras in the crowd that look to be in the thousands caught my eye then after words on Fox New&#8217;s it was was it a good speech how did he do analyzed to the last word. I wonder how many of the thousand&#8217;s in that rather large building last night know about this and in just a few year&#8217;s will be taking pictures alright of a different kind. </p>
<p> {http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_stddev_timeseries.png}</p>
<p>  To find that little chart you go to NSIDC web page much knowledge almost forbidden knowledge in some circles and as the ice goes so goes life on Earth. Yes cold here in the States a reason for that and if you look at that chart the ice in the Arctic is anything but normal. It sure look&#8217;s like more tuff winters ahead and the summer&#8217;s will not be boring I guess for one or two day&#8217;s a year Spring and fall will be normal. In Germany record snow for December then kind of a rare warm up and bingo flooding. California with the snow pack over 200% of normal let&#8217;s see in a few months. Can this be slowed yes but not with words well maybe if the word&#8217;s were tax carbon just maybe keep growth to zero maybe a few word&#8217;s from some researchers hay that might just work let&#8217;s try it. Maybe a few word&#8217;s between China and the States not about who control&#8217;s the Pacific but how to survive. Please can we have order in the House, please Senators can we take your talk off the floor order please can we have order. </p>
<p>So we either abandon the industrial model of development based on the concentrated energy in fossil fuels or we face a significant human die-off in a grim future that is within view. Abandoning that industrial model means a sudden shift in human living arrangements that would be unprecedented in history. We have to redefine what it means to live a good life, dramatically lowering our energy use and reducing our expectations about the material goods we consume.  Jensen</p>
<p>  And boring it will not be nice cup of coffee game of checkers red or black who would like to be first and heck pick one stone, straw, soul&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79627</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn&#039;t turn out very well for the Native Americans,&quot;  Hawking

  I know Sagan thought we are alone or at least no one coming to help other than ourselves then that actor, Dan who was in ghost busters thinks aliens have already been here and just gave up on us human&#039;s. There is some evidence to suggest that we have been visited.  Just our galaxy when compared to China not even a grain of sand. Last night on CNBC the Larry Kudlow show for a few minutes the talk was about China. There was Larry I worked for Ronald Reagan a retired general and a man who does study China. The Premier from China from what I understand is coming to America to check on there assets and last night the talk on Kudlow was sort of about that. They did show the new plane China has a reversed engineered F-22 I guess; you know when it absolutely has to be destroyed over night  a world of steel and concrete, of monstrous machines and terrifying weapons—a nation of warriors and fanatics, marching forward in perfect unity, all thinking the same thoughts and shouting the same slogans, perpetually working, fighting, triumphing; sorry I got carried away there for a second. The one man that study&#039;s China said we should worry about China well then the general said not to worry we the greatest Nation on Earth still control the Pacific, well that made me and sure the people at Fox New&#039;s happy. So we control the Pacific great maybe we could send a F-22 to the Pacific and kind of sneak-up on all that plastic floating out there and nuke it. You have to admit the thinking about nukes seems to work for almost anything a leaking oil well in the Gulf, nuke it a large rock coming from space, nuke it maybe if a large crack opened up in the Earth, nuke it probably other&#039;s but I&#039;d better stop there. Now just on the off chance now at about 99 to 1 instead of controlling the Pacific tax carbon yes some pain involved but much more if not done I think they call that reason probably a good idea to find the best mind&#039;s we have yes they are around and get real get down with some knowledge not illusion. Probably a real good idea to not talk to long.  Well am going to turn on the tube and see how the status quo is going this morning as we all go down the drain in not such slow motion, which didn&#039;t turn out very well for the Native Americans and this time for most life on the third planet from the Sun and the word for me today is resources, oh and how are China&#039;s asset&#039;s well look&#039;s good on paper but they know that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn&#8217;t turn out very well for the Native Americans,&#8221;  Hawking</p>
<p>  I know Sagan thought we are alone or at least no one coming to help other than ourselves then that actor, Dan who was in ghost busters thinks aliens have already been here and just gave up on us human&#8217;s. There is some evidence to suggest that we have been visited.  Just our galaxy when compared to China not even a grain of sand. Last night on CNBC the Larry Kudlow show for a few minutes the talk was about China. There was Larry I worked for Ronald Reagan a retired general and a man who does study China. The Premier from China from what I understand is coming to America to check on there assets and last night the talk on Kudlow was sort of about that. They did show the new plane China has a reversed engineered F-22 I guess; you know when it absolutely has to be destroyed over night  a world of steel and concrete, of monstrous machines and terrifying weapons—a nation of warriors and fanatics, marching forward in perfect unity, all thinking the same thoughts and shouting the same slogans, perpetually working, fighting, triumphing; sorry I got carried away there for a second. The one man that study&#8217;s China said we should worry about China well then the general said not to worry we the greatest Nation on Earth still control the Pacific, well that made me and sure the people at Fox New&#8217;s happy. So we control the Pacific great maybe we could send a F-22 to the Pacific and kind of sneak-up on all that plastic floating out there and nuke it. You have to admit the thinking about nukes seems to work for almost anything a leaking oil well in the Gulf, nuke it a large rock coming from space, nuke it maybe if a large crack opened up in the Earth, nuke it probably other&#8217;s but I&#8217;d better stop there. Now just on the off chance now at about 99 to 1 instead of controlling the Pacific tax carbon yes some pain involved but much more if not done I think they call that reason probably a good idea to find the best mind&#8217;s we have yes they are around and get real get down with some knowledge not illusion. Probably a real good idea to not talk to long.  Well am going to turn on the tube and see how the status quo is going this morning as we all go down the drain in not such slow motion, which didn&#8217;t turn out very well for the Native Americans and this time for most life on the third planet from the Sun and the word for me today is resources, oh and how are China&#8217;s asset&#8217;s well look&#8217;s good on paper but they know that.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79626</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 09:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79626</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[An interesting article, and it&#039;s given me several points to think about.

It even gave me a bit of a laugh, although at the author&#039;s expense, when he wrote, &lt;i&gt;When I first got involved in left/radical political organizing in the 1990s....&lt;/i&gt; Speaking as an old Leftist/activist from the 60s, I can assure you that there was no such thing as radical politics in the 90s, except perhaps in the fantasies of armchair liberals and ivory tower intellectuals sipping lattes at the bookstore, arguing Marx, and believing themselves to be the spiritual heirs of Che Guevara. Not that I would brand Dr. Jensen as one of those self-deluded types, but I would suggest that the definition of &quot;radical politics&quot; has changed considerably over the past few decades.

I am also mildly troubled by Dr. Jensen&#039;s assertion that &lt;i&gt;The assumption behind those projects was that an environment consistent with long-term human flourishing was possible within existing economic, social, and political systems.&lt;/i&gt; Even 40 or more years ago, activists knew that existing systems could not provide solutions to environmental and social degradation and never made such an assumption. We wanted new systems, not embellishments on the old. We wanted radically different modes of living and different paradigms for human interactions with the environment. That was the reason we were called &quot;radicals.&quot; And that was the reason some radicals turned to violence--existing systems were so firmly entrenched, so unalterable because of institutionalized inertia, that only the occasional riot or well-placed Molotov cocktail could get their attention.

Those minor criticisms aside, I think Dr. Jensen&#039;s main points are interesting, valid, and often overlooked. Considering the state of the Earth today, we would do well to pause and reflect daily, if only briefly, on how we as individuals can redefine our relationship to the people, environment, and technology around us. All my life, I&#039;ve heard that charity begins at home. True, but so does change.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting article, and it&#8217;s given me several points to think about.</p>
<p>It even gave me a bit of a laugh, although at the author&#8217;s expense, when he wrote, <i>When I first got involved in left/radical political organizing in the 1990s&#8230;.</i> Speaking as an old Leftist/activist from the 60s, I can assure you that there was no such thing as radical politics in the 90s, except perhaps in the fantasies of armchair liberals and ivory tower intellectuals sipping lattes at the bookstore, arguing Marx, and believing themselves to be the spiritual heirs of Che Guevara. Not that I would brand Dr. Jensen as one of those self-deluded types, but I would suggest that the definition of &#8220;radical politics&#8221; has changed considerably over the past few decades.</p>
<p>I am also mildly troubled by Dr. Jensen&#8217;s assertion that <i>The assumption behind those projects was that an environment consistent with long-term human flourishing was possible within existing economic, social, and political systems.</i> Even 40 or more years ago, activists knew that existing systems could not provide solutions to environmental and social degradation and never made such an assumption. We wanted new systems, not embellishments on the old. We wanted radically different modes of living and different paradigms for human interactions with the environment. That was the reason we were called &#8220;radicals.&#8221; And that was the reason some radicals turned to violence&#8211;existing systems were so firmly entrenched, so unalterable because of institutionalized inertia, that only the occasional riot or well-placed Molotov cocktail could get their attention.</p>
<p>Those minor criticisms aside, I think Dr. Jensen&#8217;s main points are interesting, valid, and often overlooked. Considering the state of the Earth today, we would do well to pause and reflect daily, if only briefly, on how we as individuals can redefine our relationship to the people, environment, and technology around us. All my life, I&#8217;ve heard that charity begins at home. True, but so does change.</p>
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		<title>By: Deadbeat</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79619</link>
		<dc:creator>Deadbeat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 04:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79619</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Again I don&#039;t have a lot of time to write a nuanced critique but take a look at Susan Rosenthal&#039;s remarks in her article ...

&lt;i&gt;He can’t answer this question until he acknowledges the impact of class conflict; the ruling class can accumulate capital only by sacrificing the needs of the working class.&lt;/i&gt;

Although the &quot;He&quot; refers to someone else the same holds true for Robert Jensen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again I don&#8217;t have a lot of time to write a nuanced critique but take a look at Susan Rosenthal&#8217;s remarks in her article &#8230;</p>
<p><i>He can’t answer this question until he acknowledges the impact of class conflict; the ruling class can accumulate capital only by sacrificing the needs of the working class.</i></p>
<p>Although the &#8220;He&#8221; refers to someone else the same holds true for Robert Jensen.</p>
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		<title>By: hayate</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79616</link>
		<dc:creator>hayate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 02:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79616</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have never heard of &quot;computer-mediated communication (CMC)&quot; and I read a lot things on the web. Is this some new label, or is what i&#039;ve been reading over the years just not intellectual enough?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never heard of &#8220;computer-mediated communication (CMC)&#8221; and I read a lot things on the web. Is this some new label, or is what i&#8217;ve been reading over the years just not intellectual enough?</p>
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		<title>By: Gary S. Corseri</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79614</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary S. Corseri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jan 2011 01:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79614</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Everything I&#039;ve ever read by Jensen makes good sense.  He&#039;s clear, knowledgeable, logical.

I share his concern about being able to overcome our &quot;technological fundamentalism&quot; in time.  (Fine phrase, btw.)  We probably won&#039;t.  The naked apes have always loved tools and the powers they impart, and the powers they magnify in themselves.

I can strongly identify with his ambition here:

&quot;I am trying to become more tribal and more universal at the same time, recognizing there is no guarantee that of a smooth transition or success in the long run.&quot;

 Jensen doesn&#039;t pretend to have all the answers--how to get from A to Z.  He knows it&#039;s going to be an arduous journey, maybe even impossible.  He&#039;s challenging us to imagine the pitfalls, and the hydra-headed monsters we&#039;ll encounter along the way.  He&#039;s challenging us to change our way of thinking, to be more imaginative, better informed; in short, to re-define what it means to be human.

It&#039;s a challenge we must meet in this century--and probably in this decade, starting now!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everything I&#8217;ve ever read by Jensen makes good sense.  He&#8217;s clear, knowledgeable, logical.</p>
<p>I share his concern about being able to overcome our &#8220;technological fundamentalism&#8221; in time.  (Fine phrase, btw.)  We probably won&#8217;t.  The naked apes have always loved tools and the powers they impart, and the powers they magnify in themselves.</p>
<p>I can strongly identify with his ambition here:</p>
<p>&#8220;I am trying to become more tribal and more universal at the same time, recognizing there is no guarantee that of a smooth transition or success in the long run.&#8221;</p>
<p> Jensen doesn&#8217;t pretend to have all the answers&#8211;how to get from A to Z.  He knows it&#8217;s going to be an arduous journey, maybe even impossible.  He&#8217;s challenging us to imagine the pitfalls, and the hydra-headed monsters we&#8217;ll encounter along the way.  He&#8217;s challenging us to change our way of thinking, to be more imaginative, better informed; in short, to re-define what it means to be human.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a challenge we must meet in this century&#8211;and probably in this decade, starting now!</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79613</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 23:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the theater of the absurd some may notice the curtain is on fire and maybe a wall or two of course as the last actor telling people it&#039;s all part of the show many will believe that and stay. The problem this time it&#039;s are home Earth where do you go but I&#039;ll bet the owner of the theater of the absurd has thought about it. Capitalism with known knowledge will not work for much longer well it&#039;s not working to well now and I guess some are still waiting for the next party not this time.  The theater of the absurd go shopping call now until out the back door for very few as the rest of us try and survive. So far this seems very clear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the theater of the absurd some may notice the curtain is on fire and maybe a wall or two of course as the last actor telling people it&#8217;s all part of the show many will believe that and stay. The problem this time it&#8217;s are home Earth where do you go but I&#8217;ll bet the owner of the theater of the absurd has thought about it. Capitalism with known knowledge will not work for much longer well it&#8217;s not working to well now and I guess some are still waiting for the next party not this time.  The theater of the absurd go shopping call now until out the back door for very few as the rest of us try and survive. So far this seems very clear.</p>
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		<title>By: Deadbeat</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79612</link>
		<dc:creator>Deadbeat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don writes ...

&lt;i&gt;Part of it could be the theater of the absurd at a time the theater is on fire. Don’t worry folk’s just all part of the show as the actors are heading out the back door with the day’s receipt’s. &lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s part of it.  But what Jensen fails to discuss is about power imbalances.  He assumes that all people are equal in power and thus what we have are merely designed by &quot;free&quot; will or &quot;free&quot; choice.  This is part of what is so reactionary and frustrating reading Jensen. 

It&#039;s OK that he identifies Capitalism but he does it in a rather weak manner and naturally he omits the &quot;unspeakable&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don writes &#8230;</p>
<p><i>Part of it could be the theater of the absurd at a time the theater is on fire. Don’t worry folk’s just all part of the show as the actors are heading out the back door with the day’s receipt’s. </i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s part of it.  But what Jensen fails to discuss is about power imbalances.  He assumes that all people are equal in power and thus what we have are merely designed by &#8220;free&#8221; will or &#8220;free&#8221; choice.  This is part of what is so reactionary and frustrating reading Jensen. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s OK that he identifies Capitalism but he does it in a rather weak manner and naturally he omits the &#8220;unspeakable&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79611</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79611</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Part of it could be the theater of the absurd at a time the theater is on fire. Don&#039;t worry folk&#039;s just all part of the show as the actors are heading out the back door with the day&#039;s receipt&#039;s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of it could be the theater of the absurd at a time the theater is on fire. Don&#8217;t worry folk&#8217;s just all part of the show as the actors are heading out the back door with the day&#8217;s receipt&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Deadbeat</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79610</link>
		<dc:creator>Deadbeat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79610</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wish I had more time because there are a lot of obvious holes in Jensen&#039;s commentary.  If Jensen would deal with reality in an honest manner perhaps he would realize that there are solutions.  What he fails to deal with are the reasons why those solution cannot and won&#039;t get implemented, what is needed to get from here to there, and a good definition of what &quot;there&quot; is.  One thing is for certain &quot;localism&quot; ain&#039;t the answer but just a small part of it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I had more time because there are a lot of obvious holes in Jensen&#8217;s commentary.  If Jensen would deal with reality in an honest manner perhaps he would realize that there are solutions.  What he fails to deal with are the reasons why those solution cannot and won&#8217;t get implemented, what is needed to get from here to there, and a good definition of what &#8220;there&#8221; is.  One thing is for certain &#8220;localism&#8221; ain&#8217;t the answer but just a small part of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/01/the-machines-change-the-work-remains-the-same/#comment-79605</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jan 2011 19:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=27672#comment-79605</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We can estimate what is needed pretty well. Stabilizing climate requires, to first order, that we restore Earth’s energy balance. If the planet once again radiates as much energy to space as it absorbs from the sun, there no longer will be a drive causing the planet to get warmer. Restoring planetary energy balance would not immediately stop sea level rise, but it should keep sea level rise small. Restoring energy balance also would prevent climate change from becoming a huge force for species extinction and ecosystem collapse. James Hansen 

   There is still time and it will take a lot of us at first then all of us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We can estimate what is needed pretty well. Stabilizing climate requires, to first order, that we restore Earth’s energy balance. If the planet once again radiates as much energy to space as it absorbs from the sun, there no longer will be a drive causing the planet to get warmer. Restoring planetary energy balance would not immediately stop sea level rise, but it should keep sea level rise small. Restoring energy balance also would prevent climate change from becoming a huge force for species extinction and ecosystem collapse. James Hansen </p>
<p>   There is still time and it will take a lot of us at first then all of us.</p>
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