Jews, Jazz, and Socialism

How would you feel about a Radio show specialising in Aryan classical music? How would you feel about a radio show that features mainly, or only Aryan composers and performers?

I guess that I know the answer: you would feel disturbed, and you may even want to protest.

However, Mike Gerber, a writer for the Jewish Socialist Magazine and a member of the ‘Jewish Socialist Group’ has a very similar agenda – he is about to launch a ‘Jews only’ jazz radio show.

Here is an extract from his press release, which he circulated this morning: 

I’m Mike Gerber, author of the book “Jazz Jews”, as a result of which I’ve been asked to host a regular Jazz Jews show on the internet station UK Jazz Radio

My Jazz Jews show will feature: Jewish/jazz fusions of every kind; rootsy Jewish music such as klezmer; Israeli jazz; and there will also be a focus on Jewish Great American Songbook composers. I will play tracks by some of the many Jewish musicians who have contributed to jazz more generally…

I assume that we wouldn’t accept an Aryan classical music radio show, yet a ‘Jewish Jazz show’ must be somehow kosher. At least kosher enough for www.jazzradio.com to host it.

I met Mike Gerber ten years ago. He came to my house to interview me about Jews and Jazz.  He sat with me for many hours, desperately trying to squeeze out of me an insight into the inherent bond between Jazz and Jews. I could hardly help him.  I am not a musicologist. Furthermore, I cannot hear any particular Jewish musical influence in Jazz. Though it is true that more than a few Jazz  master artists and iconic composers were Jewish by ethnicity ( and this fact in itself deserves a  study ), but jazz, as an art form, is far from being Judeo-centric or Jewish. 

The greatness of jazz music is grounded on its capacity to bring together people of all colours and ethnicities. Jazz made itself into a cosmopolitan language and a symbol of freedom because of its diversity of  sounds, rhythms and cultures.  And with all due respect to Michael Gerber and his obsession with Jewish cultural importance, I cannot  hear the Jew in Gershwin or in Michael Brecker. I could instead hear Africa, Cuba, Blues, Baroque,  NYC, Paris. In fact I can hear everything but the Jewish Ghetto.  

When we met, I suggested to Gerber that for many Jewish artists, Jazz is actually an escape route from the  ghetto, from the chicken soup, gefilte fish, Zionism and other symbols of  chosen-ness. At the time, I also  discussed this issue with drummer star Asaf Sirkis, song writer Chaz Jankel and legendary New York saxophonist Bob Berg and they obviously agreed with me.  I myself can testify that twelve bars into my new path as a young Jazz enthusiast, I  managed to forget Zionism, Israel and the IDF. I didn’t want to die on the Zionist altar : instead I dreamed to swing in Paris, or bop in NYC. For many of us, Israelis and Jewish musicians, Jazz was a window of opportunity. It was a true means towards liberation.

Gerber didn’t like my idea that much. It could easily dismantle his Jewish project.   Gerber spent seven years writing a gigantic text about Jews and Jazz, which is, in my opinion, one of the most disturbing books in the history of Jazz literature.  As Gerber’s website suggests, the book “explores the role of Jews in breaking the colour bar in American jazz, and in using jazz as an instrument against apartheid and against Soviet repression”.  

But here is a clear problem: though it  is indeed very important for  Gerber to present Jewish jazz as a ‘progressive affair’ at the heart of the anti Apartheid movement – it is far from being clear why Jewish Jazz musicians are far from being actively involved in the anti Zionist movement. 

If Jewish Jazz musicians are somehow wonderfully progressive – how is it that we hardly see any Jewish Jazz collective movement denouncing Zionism or Israel?

Gerber is obviously totally foreign to Jazz and its spirit. He clearly fails to realize that playing music is the ultimate form of being amongst others. When you play music, issues to do with race, identity, politics and cultural barriers are put aside.   Being there and producing beauty with others is in itself the strongest possible statement. Jazz musicians do not have to say much, for the music carries the strongest message. In our Jazza festival last week, we had at least four Jewish artists. They operated as ordinary human beings. They didn’t carry any flags or banners. They didn’t ask for any special treatment.

Michael Gerber, however, didn’t come to our Jazza concert (though he somehow always calls me in advance to ask for a ‘free press pass’ for Ronnie Scott’s when I play there). Jewish Socialist Groups did not support Jazza either, nor did any other Jewish organization. But, let me tell you, many Jews did. They joined us as ordinary human beings. Unlike Mike Gerber and his Jewish Socialists they obviously assimilated into humanity.

Zelig For Breakfast

Three weeks ago Gerber asked me to send him some music for his ‘Jews only’ radio show. I obviously refused. I suggested to him that when he decides to feature and promote Gentiles’ music, he should contact me again and I will consider. This morning after reading Gerber’s press release, I wrote back to him in sarcasm — I suggested that my (imaginary) German Friend Klaus Hofmann wants to host an Aryan Jazz programme. I thought that it would be nice to have the two racist Radio programmes next to each other.

Gerber was hurt. He answered immediately:

“A key part of my show is Jewish jazz, which also includes a lot of Israeli jazz.” He went on to say,  “If it’s OK to have a Latin jazz programme, it’s OK to have a show that’s largely about the Jewish jazz sub-genre.”

Gerber’s answer took me by surprise.  Though Gerber  is a member of the Jewish Socialist Group, and in spite of the fact that Jewish Socialists claim  also  to be anti Zionists who support cultural boycott of Israel, Gerber, all of a sudden, decided to endorse the Jewish state as a  Jewish cultural Mecca. He even became an active mouthpiece for Israeli art (instead of boycotting it).  When pushed into a corner the Jewish Socialist somehow changed his spots. He even managed to endorse Zionist culture.

I can accept that Israel is indeed a well of very many incredible Jazz talents. However, one question is still left open – is there such a thing as Jewish Jazz?   

Gerber is either misleading, or may even be  misled by himself. There is a big difference between Latin Jazz and Jewish Jazz : Latin Jazz is a clear musical genre that is intrinsically associated with a piece of geography. Musicians around the world can easily define Latin Jazz in musical terms. Anyone can join a Latin Jazz combo once achieving a reasonable command of the Latin musical language. Jewish Jazz, on the contrary,  is not an art form, and it is not a musical  genre. There is no such thing, outside of Gerber’s universe. I guess that in order to make it into Gerber’s book, all you need is a Jewish mother. This is also exactly what you need in order to make Aliya to Israel and dwell on Palestinian land.

As much as I am happy with Israel exposing its true nature, I am very happy with Mike Gerber pushing his agenda.  It was Mike who already ten years ago opened my eyes to  this  bizarre Jewish collective hubris. It was Mike Gerber who inspired  me afew years ago to invent the satirical character Artie Fishel, the American musician who is totally convinced that Jazz is neither American or African, but entirely Jewish.

Like Gerber, Fishel wants to bring Jazz to where it belongs, namely The Promised Band.

As tragic as it may be, Jewish politics is always a form of Zionism.

You can listen to Artie Fishel and his Promised Band while thinking about Mike Gerber and his kosher socialism.

Gilad Atzmon, now living in London, was born in Israel and served in the Israeli military. He is the author of The Wandering Who and one of the most accomplished jazz saxophonists in Europe. He can be reached at: atz@onetel.net.uk. Read other articles by Gilad, or visit Gilad's website.

40 comments on this article so far ...

Comments RSS feed

  1. hayate said on October 22nd, 2010 at 10:53pm #

    That’s several very well written pieces from Atzmon recently. He’s on a roll… :D

    With such deconstructions such as this, I can see why he’s unpopular on Jewish-centred sites such as mondoweiss and jews sans frontiers. Not to mention the guardian’s [cough] talkboard, where posting a commentary from Atzmon would likely get one booted from their forum. :D

  2. 3bancan said on October 23rd, 2010 at 12:05am #

    hayate said on October 22nd, 2010 at 10:53pm #

    Some 2 years ago I posted 3 comments on jews sans frontieres. In one I only mentioned Gilad – and the comment was deleted immediately. All those Jewish sites are preoccupied nearly exclusively with antisemitism, Jews and “Jewishness”. I haven’t seen one of them having a link to Gilad’s site.
    Gilad’s articles are imho a must read for anyone who wants to understand the Jewish mentality…

  3. Gary S. Corseri said on October 23rd, 2010 at 8:52am #

    Atzmon proves again that he is not only a world-class musician, but a deep thinker. “Bizarre, Jewish collective hubris” is his theme here, and, not incidentally, the whole question of identity and borders.

    Aggressors, whether individuals or states, incessantly attempt to expand their borders, feeding on the culture or life-energy of others. Aggressors, whether groups or empires, in political, economic or social terms, absorb. They arouse the inevitable resistance of which Kim Petersen writes elsewhere on today’s DV blog.

    True artists like Atzmon know that culture is a shared experience; it respects the integrity of persons; we share, and, in the sharing, we all grow together.

  4. hayate said on October 23rd, 2010 at 12:20pm #

    3bancan

    I’m not surprised your comment was deleted from jsf. :D There’s a lot of Atzmon hate on that site, which really had me wondering like wtf? They also hate Redress, a pro-Palestinian site.

    “preoccupied nearly exclusively with antisemitism, Jews and “Jewishness”

    I’ve seen a lot of that on those sites. At first didn’t know what to make of the witch hunts. That was years ago at guardian’s talkboard. What took so long to figure out what was going on is there is quite a mix of sayanim pretending to be left and those who think they are leftists, but who still maintain that Jewish people are deserved of a special status and are hostile to any criticism of Jewishness or zionism from a non-Jewish quarter. It can be quite difficult to tell which is which in a lot of cases, and to make things even more confusing, a lot of the latter type I encountered posting at guardian are not in fact Jewish. :D I never posted at jsf, but did notice that several of the regulars there are the same herd animals I encountered at guardian’s talkboard and I had had enough of that Jewish supremacist rubbish. At mondo, I foolishly jumped right in before checking out the terrain and encountered all of the problems you describe.

    What is interesting about this particularity to Jewish predominant sites is it reminds me of a piece Atzmon wrote a while back about how Jews in israel fight among themselves as much as against “outsiders”. I don’t have time to find it now, unfortunately. Atzmon said that israel’s undoing may be caused by this predilection of israelis Jews to fight constantly with and prey upon each other as much as by forces from outside.

  5. shabnam said on October 23rd, 2010 at 2:08pm #

    Now, more than ever, Wikileaks has exposed itself as nothing but an agent of US imperialism and Judeofascists who is trying to get ignorant people’s trust to frame Iran for Jeodeofascists’ war plan.

    Whoever is publicizing and presenting Wikileaks information as credible so can be trusted by ignorant people are nothing BUT AN AGENT OF US GOVERNMENT AND A PROPAGANDIST OF THE APARTHEID STATE.

    Down with Zionist plot and its fifth columns who are hiding behind the phony ‘left’. Down with Wikileaks, a zionist propaganda tool to frame others for US and zionists’ war crime activities.
    Shame on ‘democracy now’ and its agents. Down with the closet Zionists who are presenting themselves as ‘progressives’.

    Julian Assange is a stooge of US imperailsim and Judeofascists like George Soros.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/8083016/Wikileaks-how-Iran-devised-new-suicide-vest-for-al-Qaeda-to-use-in-Iraq.html

    Shame on the closet Zionists at ZMAG who are presenting lies of Wikileaks as ‘credible’ to serve the interest of US imperialism and apartheid state, Israel. ‘Democracy Now’ is a US government front and a propaganda tool of George Soros.

    AMY GOODMAN: WikiLeaks sparked condemnation from the US government when it released the 91,000 Afghan war logs in July. The White House and the Pentagon accused the website of irresponsibility.

    DANIEL ELLSBERG: Yes. It took a long time, one page at a time. So I’m quite jealous of the current capabilities. But I’m glad to express my support of what WikiLeaks is doing and its sources, in particular. Whoever gave this information to WikiLeaks obviously understood that they were at risk of being where Bradley Manning is now: accused, in prison.

    Daniel Ellsberg worked for RAND Corporation gave advise to US government.
    www dot zcommunications.org/the-iraq-war-logs-by-daniel-ellsberg

    wikileaks, A ZIONIST AGENT AND STOOGE OF GEORGE SOROS, claims:

    {In one of the most tantalising documents, they also hint at Iranian involvement in al-Qaeda suicide bombing.}

    THERE IS NO AL-QAEDA. BEN LADIN WAS KILLED IN 2001. Most of the terror in Iraq is designed and implimented by US, Israel, Saudi Arabia. This fact is known to everyone including children.

    Wikileaks can fool no one except itself. Down with liars.

  6. shabnam said on October 23rd, 2010 at 9:25pm #

    Number of Iranians are concerned regarding ‘progressive’ websites in the West, ‘COUNTERPUNCH’, that post Green supporters’ propaganda message at their website. Professor Sasan Fayazmanesh in “The Left and Iranian Exiles” has tried to explain reasons behind the Iranians’ concern when it comes to the ‘greens’ and their supporters, foreign countres:

    Voices of Resistance or Agitprop?
    The Left and Iranian Exiles
    By SASAN FAYAZMANESH

    A few days ago I received an email entitled “CounterPunch openly publishes blatant Israeli-CIA agitprop against Iran.” The email was in reference to a recent article in CounterPunch by an Iranian-American who had attended a dinner in New York hosted by President Ahmadinejad for American anti-war, social justice and peace activists, while Ahmadinejad was visiting the US to attend the United Nations General Assembly Annual Meeting. The author of the article, presumably a supporter of the “green movement” in Iran, was upset about the fact that the American activists attending the dinner did not challenge Ahmadinejad over Iran’s human rights violations, and, instead, mostly expressed outrage over the US foreign policy. The writer of the email, who forwarded the essay to me, found the article to be similar to Iran bashing by American-Israeli propagandists. He appeared to be troubled about the fact that such an essay was posted on a progressive website.

    I had also received similar notes about previous essays written by some supporters of the Iranian green movement and posted on the CounterPunch website. Such notes were apparently intended to warn me that as a longtime contributor to CounterPunch and a critique of the “USrael”—a term that some wrongly believe I have coined—I have been mostly silent about progressive outlets, such as CounterPunch, posting essays by some supporters of the green movement in Iran.

    Similarly, a few weeks ago I received an email from a journalist in Iran who asked if I am still politically active as a writer. I answered that I am, but that I have not been writing many journalistic essays, since I am devoting more time to writing a sequel to my 2008 book, a follow-up that deals comprehensively with the Obama Administration policy of “tough diplomacy” toward Iran. Also, I do not wish my continued criticism of USrael to be construed in any way or manner as defense of tyranny in Iran. Moreover, subsequent to the controversial 2009 Iranian presidential election, I expressed my opinion forthrightly about the complex nature of the Iranian government and the problem that the US progressives face when dealing with this complexity. Such expressions made me persona non grata as far as the media in Iran was concerned, and the regular invitations for interview on various matters—ranging from unilateral and multilateral sanctions against Iran to IAEA reports and the US economy—came to a halt. …

    The above partial account of the politics and tactics employed by some exile supporters of the green movement explains why many American progressives are wary of this movement and its future. They remember how progressive Iraqi exiles, faced with a despotic government, became more and more reactionary. They remember how the issue of human rights became part of the menu option intended to bring about a regime change in Iraq. They remember how in the process of paving the way for the invasion of Iraq, the Iraqi exiles, even some progressive ones, became convenient tools. They also remember the devastation of Iraq, millions of people dead or displaced and an economy in ruin, all for the sake of establishing a US friendly government that would no longer support the resistance movement against Israel. That is why a number of readers of CounterPunch seem to be concerned about some essays posted on this progressive website by the Iranian exiles. But these readers have to remember that CounterPunch has also published many articles that are critical of those Iranians who are cozying up to the USraelis. They also have to remember that the situation in Iran is complex and there is a legitimate concern about the current government’s intolerance for any voice of dissent, however sincere and independent that voice might be. In this complex situation separating the wheat from the chaff, discerning between legitimate concerns and exaggerated claims, distinguishing between true and sincere analysts and political opportunists, and recognizing the difference between petty nationalists and internationalists that will not align themselves with US and Israeli policies, could become extremely difficult. That is why I don’t envy the job of those sitting on the editorial board of progressive outlets, such as CounterPunch. They face hard choices.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/sasan10222010.html

  7. hayate said on October 24th, 2010 at 2:04am #

    Counterpunch was one of the very few sites that posted both commentary/analysis of the zionazi assault upon Iran from both the zionazi and normal pov. In fact, they were one of the few who didn’t exclusively post zionazi propaganda disguised as something [cough] leftwing. So I give them credit for that. The problem is they are not discerning, nor consistent in what they post on their site in a lot of cases. Much like shabnam, as a matter of fact. :D

    I hope they are not going the way of the “soft” zionist’s site such as znet.

  8. mary said on October 24th, 2010 at 3:09am #

    Counterpunch are asking for $70,000 to keep going. ICH are always making appeals. How does DV manage to be independent of donations? Is there a funder? Not George Soros I hope!

  9. bozh said on October 24th, 2010 at 8:16am #

    Wikileaks appear as just another lament. History says clearly that basicly nothing wld happen for better.
    They appear feelgood for some and feelbad for a few people. For innocent aliens, situation may even worsen.
    Feelings come and go, but mafia telos stays the same: rob people, wage poverty-diktats-untruths!
    We can expect killings to go on for decades. Complaints merely annoy the criminal castes and not just in US but in many lands and evil empires.

    The new logs about what criminals wld do, simply goes underground or unaccessible to a even living rat let alone human.

    On some sites i had been attacked for saying that also iraq is an evil empire. Wikileaks prove it. Alas, that’s all it does! I do not think that Al Maliki and his police wld change their minds or behavior– except for the worse? tnx

  10. mnbob said on October 24th, 2010 at 8:16am #

    “How would you feel about a Radio show specialising in Aryan classical music? How would you feel about a radio show that features mainly, or only Aryan composers and performers?”

    HUH? If by that you mean white, blond haired, blue eyed Germans. I guess, okay. I’m sure there would be a lot of good music and some not so good.

    “Jewish Jazz” is sorta like Catholic Jazz, or Baptist Jazz. Who cares?!!!!!!!!

    I’m not a music historian, but my guess is there have been a lot of Jewish, Catholic, Baptist, Episcopalian, probably not a lot of Quakers or Lutherans (although I could be wrong), composing and performing Jazz over it’s history, again some good some bad. How this gets tied to politics beyond me.

    As far as music any music carrying a message. Why would anyone care how the composer feels?

  11. Don Hawkins said on October 24th, 2010 at 8:38am #

    I used to be first in the morning Al Hirt’s place New Orleans; bourbon shot’s. The year let’s see 1968 I didn’t know the people in the place at the time and used to watch them play with amazement. Anyway who invented farming I’ll bet human’s. I just thought that was what I was suppose to do.

  12. Don Hawkins said on October 24th, 2010 at 8:52am #

    Is diamond cutting a real job, no. It’s my feeling the World doesn’t need more diamond’s unless they are used for say new energy sources shinny things and the invisible wall go together like a horse and carriage. Hay what’s the carriage/cart doing in the front and the horse in back shouldn’t that be the other way around and all that jazz.

  13. Don Hawkins said on October 24th, 2010 at 9:43am #

    Old man to young man in New York City behind three locked door’s. Son you see this instrument it was invented by Moses to cut diamonds and we have been using it for about 3,000 years. Now the trumpet was also invented by Moses and I remember that old song when I first saw my wife, baby can you hug me before the rain falls, anyway let’s cut some diamonds my boy as we all go down the drain in not such slow motion.

    New Orleans is the only place I know of where you ask a little kid what he wants to be and instead of saying “I want to be a policeman,” or “I want to be a fireman,” he says, I want to be a musician”. —Alan Jaffe

    “Diamonds Are a Girl’s Best Friend,” really and here I thought I was after all I am the President of the United States.

  14. jayn0t said on October 24th, 2010 at 10:02am #

    @3bancan – ‘Jews Sans Frontieres’ is run by left-wing Jewish chauvinists. They published an article claiming that the people who disrupted the UN Conference Against Racism are white, and that’s why they did it. But the main focus of the conference was Israel apartheid. So I politely asked, in a comment, if perhaps these disrupters are Jewish. If it’s fair to mention their skin color, it’s fair to ask about their ethnicity. The comment disappeared, and this is why:

    ‘You are white. Glad that you found a way to avoid taking responsibility for white domination by blaming “the Jews”.’

    I couldn’t ask for a clearer illustration of how leftist white guilt is used to help Israel’s power.

  15. Don Hawkins said on October 24th, 2010 at 10:12am #

    Heck let’s sing this together should be done very slowly and pretend you just took 10 downers and a few drink’s of the good stuff it’s ok to slurrr your words.

    Happy birthday to youuu, happy birthday to youuu happy birthday to youuu Mr. so and so happy birthday to youuu and diamonds are a girl’s best friend, really.

    Probably best to sing this in front of an older group sixty’s and beyond upper upper is the best class oh and think of this as kind of a war.

  16. bozh said on October 24th, 2010 at 11:08am #

    Don,
    yet another simplicity? oh, my devil, will that ever end? positing simplicities and for toddlers to boot!

    A poster on another site replies so to my assertion that US constitution; being a sacred writ– not a bit less so than bible or quran and only to some people- does command invasions-occupations-murder-expulsion:
    US constitution does not apply to foreign lands.

    i replied to him: u just reaffirmed my point. He said that he cldn’t understand my point!
    Which is? Precisely why that writ is infallible and not to mention quran when quranis stone people to death or talmudniks murder pal’ns.

    u see, it is never fault of islam, mosheism, rabbis, ulema’s and constitution cannot be faulted for what US does to aliens.

    But i tell u: i am gonna beat up my wife and, lo and behold, only blame myself!
    How neater can it get? tnx

  17. Jonas Rand said on October 24th, 2010 at 1:01pm #

    “Jazz for Jews” is, in my opinion, just a way to show extol the virtues of Judaism or promote cultural ‘uniqueness’ of Jews – though it just seems ridiculous. How can a religion have their own type of a genre of music?

    As for Wikileaks (how did that get into the conversation, shabnam?), they simply provide a vehicle for releasing secret documents. The recent troves reveal the terror of US imperialism and the sheer level of atrocities committed during the war. They are just leaked military files, and are not distractions – maybe they reveal complicity that you don’t want to admit to being true, but just because it is not what some want to hear doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I support what Wikileaks stands for – accountability for governments and a commitment to revealing the secrets that governments and other shadowy institutions hide. Julian Assange has been targeted by spies and world governments, so if he is a government puppet he must not be serving his master very well!

    I will not even bother addressing the claim that Osama is dead, it is not even an issue if he is but I doubt it highly.

    Iran’s government is a right-wing religious tyranny who is ruled by the ulema, militarists, and capitalists. I would not be surprised that they are supporting other religious fundamentalists. They were trying to overthrow the Taliban, which was commendable; however, I will not lend my support to Iran or its policies. There is something wrong with religious leaders, ultraconservatives, robber barons, running peoples’ lives! Pakistan, it should be known, is a corrupt country. This should not surprise any of you. It is a country with an immense income gap as well; clearly not a bastion of social justice. Yes it is no lie that their intelligence service ISI helped (or is still helping) the Taliban. Hamid Gul said it himself that he would join; under his leadership, the ISI lent instrumental assistance to the Afghan mujahideen along with the USA.

  18. Deadbeat said on October 24th, 2010 at 2:05pm #

    “Jazz for Jews” is, in my opinion, just a way to show extol the virtues of Judaism or promote cultural ‘uniqueness’ of Jews – though it just seems ridiculous. How can a religion have their own type of a genre of music?

    I don’t think it is ridiculous that a religion can have its own genre of music. History is replete with religious traditions and it is conceivable that genre of music can develop within that culture. So I think Jews can indeed have a form of music.

    However Atzmon’s point and I have to agree here is Mike Gerber pushing his agenda of co-opting an art form that Jews did not invent. The roots of Jazz are in African American history and that history is based in slavery in which Jews participated and refuse to acknowledge.

    Therefore it appears that Mike Gerber want to use Zionist power to co-opt the culture of an oppressed group. That displays callousness, chauvinism and disrespect.

  19. Deadbeat said on October 24th, 2010 at 2:28pm #

    jaynot writes …

    ***‘You are white. Glad that you found a way to avoid taking responsibility for white domination by blaming “the Jews”.’ ***

    I couldn’t ask for a clearer illustration of how leftist white guilt is used to help Israel’s power.

    Absolutely agree. The phony angst towards the Tea Party by “progressives” especially Chomsky “brown shirting” them is the latest example of what you describe as cover for Zionist power.

  20. 3bancan said on October 24th, 2010 at 3:11pm #

    Jonas Rand said on October 24th, 2010 at 1:01pm #

    “I will not even bother addressing the claim that Osama is dead, it is not even an issue if he is but I doubt it highly.”

    It’s normal for a zionazi to stick to the official version of history.
    “They were trying to overthrow the Taliban, which was commendable”

    It’s normal for a zionazi to support “regime change” policies.

    The rest of the comment is the typical hatred for “the other”…

  21. Jonas Rand said on October 24th, 2010 at 3:43pm #

    Deadbeat, there are assuredly fascist (maybe not “racist”) elements amongst leaders of the Tea Party. For example, Carl Paladino’s “sanitation” or “hygiene camps” for welfare recipients were eerily reminiscent of Nazi Germany’s attitude to “useless eaters”. That Tea Party guy dressing up in Nazi regalia, I would say was not a good example of their fascism, as it was perfectly legitimate (a WWII reenactment) but Sharron Angle’s race-baiting is surely not commendable.

    Chomsky never said the Tea Party ideology was Nazism, but that the way in which it emerged was like the way Nazism erupted out of the perceived stagnant mediocrity of Weimar German politics. This explanation made perfect sense, as most of the “grassroots” members are disillusioned with Washington and state-corporate neglect. The Beckite gathering on Capitol Hill was, in spirit, similar to the Nazi May Day celebrations of German national socialist organizations and unions. Also, I thought the Tea Parties were pro-Israel and pro-Zionist, aren’t they?

  22. catguy00 said on October 24th, 2010 at 3:55pm #

    Deadbeat,

    You do know the Tea Party is largely Zionists/pro-war?

  23. Jonas Rand said on October 24th, 2010 at 3:58pm #

    3bancan said on October 24th, 2010 at 3:11pm…
    “It’s normal for a zionazi to stick to the official version of history.”

    Actually, I once theorized that Osama Bin Laden was dead years ago, and that it was a government conspiracy to create an enemy. Then I realized that there would be no reason to create a bunch of videos and an elaborate story about Bin Laden to provide a pretext for the war. Even if Osama was really alive, wouldn’t the pretexts for these wars still be foolish and wouldn’t the wars still be unjustified? So why would we need to say a dead man is alive, and produce several videos of someone who pretends to be Bin Laden? If he were dead, we could still claim that “Al Qaeda” as an organization still existed, plotted the 9/11 attacks, and conspired with Saddam (who was Al Qaeda’s enemy and a US ally) and the Taliban. Osama might as well not exist; whether he is alive or dead, he does not play an integral role in Al-Qaeda’s operations today. It is very decentralized.

    Also, there’s no evidence he is dead.

    “It’s normal for a zionazi to support “regime change” policies.”

    So, do you support the Taliban government or Iran’s? Iran tried to overthrow the Taliban, but we declared both our enemies and instead murdered Afghan civilians for the Khyber Pass pipeline and the creation of an oppressive American puppet state to control (and deplete) natural resources. Meanwhile Hamid Karzai plays the role of Ngo Dinh Diem, an unpopular and corrupt dictator who must stay in power by hiring people to instruct voters to support him. It was a positive action for him to ban foreign “contractor” mercenaries, though…

  24. Jonas Rand said on October 24th, 2010 at 4:07pm #

    As for “white guilt”, it is probably better for Whites to try to rectify the racism, discrimination, and oppression against people of color than to blame “Jews” for all the world’s ills. What about the power concentrated in the hands of the White male establishment, largely Christian? White privilege and advantage must be eliminated through Whites being sensitive to the plight of people of color and actively trying to stop hate. There is a lot for Whites to try to change in this country; we still often rely on stereotyping, inherent privilege by skin color, and free passes for racism to get away with oppression and intolerance. No one is trying to “shame” the White man; that is simply another manifestation of the paranoia Whites sometimes exhibit when it is pointed out that they must focus on ending prejudice against people of color.

  25. 3bancan said on October 24th, 2010 at 4:26pm #

    Jonas Rand said on October 24th, 2010 at 3:58pm #

    “So, do you support the Taliban government or Iran’s?”

    Imho
    it’s up to the Afghans (how) to run their country,
    it’s up to the Iranians (how) to run their country,
    it’s up to the Iraqis (how) to run their country,

    it’s up to the Palestinians (how) to run Palestine,
    it’s up to the Jews (how) to run Birobijan…

    PS: As far as I can tell the Taliban don’t send their armies around the globe on genocidal missions. It’s the zionazis who do that…

  26. 3bancan said on October 24th, 2010 at 4:41pm #

    Jonas Rand said on October 24th, 2010 at 4:07pm #

    What a beautiful sample of the typical zionazi blather…

  27. Deadbeat said on October 24th, 2010 at 6:54pm #

    @catguy00 and Jonas Rand …

    Deadbeat, You do know the Tea Party is largely Zionists/pro-war?

    The Tea Party is primarily a reactionary response to the Obama bailout of the banks and were primarily formed as part of the support for Ron Paul type of “Libertarianism”. This faction is decidedly anti-war and while some of supportive of Israel they are not willing to fight wars that benefit another nation. They are ideological “Constitutionalist”.

    Primarily the Tea Party are the beneficiaries of the predominately white Affirmative Action policies of post-WWII America that have now run its course.

    @Jonas Rand

    Chomsky is an interview with Chris Hedges likened the rise of Tea Party to the events of the 1930′s. Clearly the Tea Party are no way nearly in comparison to the 1930′s Brown Shirts and therefore his analogy was way off base and anachronistic. For someone who is considered to be a foremost intellectual he should be more careful in his analysis. However for someone who really uses his intellectualism as a cover for Zionism then his smearing of the Tea Party is in keeping with his agenda.

  28. catguy00 said on October 24th, 2010 at 7:01pm #

    The Ron Paul libertarians are a minority that have been pushed out unfortunately.

    If Chomsky were really a Zionist he would be supporting the Tea Party movement as it is pro-war and most definitely pro-Israel.

  29. 3bancan said on October 24th, 2010 at 7:46pm #

    catguy00 said on October 24th, 2010 at 7:01pm #

    “If Chomsky were really a Zionist…”

    So in ziogatto’s world Chomsky is not a Zionist. It’s just like saying that snow is black.

    http://vimeo.com/14835834

  30. Jonas Rand said on October 24th, 2010 at 7:52pm #

    Deadbeat,

    “The Tea Party is primarily a reactionary response to the Obama bailout of the banks…”

    …which is exactly what Chomsky said. He also likened the fact that it was a reactionary response to the Obama administration’s policies and arose from dissatisfaction with the federal government to the way the Nazi Brownshirts arose. This was because Nazis grew out of anti-government sentiments in Weimar Germany and what Germans felt was political mediocrity. All of a sudden, the Nazi movement had grown so large that Paul von Hindenburg, the president of the Weimar Republic, appointed Hitler as chancellor of Germany. You know the rest.

    “This faction is decidedly anti-war and while some of supportive of Israel they are not willing to fight wars that benefit another nation. They are ideological ‘Constitutionalist’. ”

    All Tea Party members do not have the same Libertarian/Constitutionalist stand. Really, they have not developed a consistent and coherent foreign policy platform.

  31. Deadbeat said on October 24th, 2010 at 8:09pm #

    Jonas Rand writes …

    Deadbeat, “The Tea Party is primarily a reactionary response to the Obama bailout of the banks…” …which is exactly what Chomsky said.

    Chris Hedges’ Columns Noam Chomsky Has ‘Never Seen Anything Like This’

    “It is very similar to late Weimar Germany,” Chomsky told me when I called him at his office in Cambridge, Mass. “The parallels are striking. There was also tremendous disillusionment with the parliamentary system. The most striking fact about Weimar was not that the Nazis managed to destroy the Social Democrats and the Communists but that the traditional parties, the Conservative and Liberal parties, were hated and disappeared. It left a vacuum which the Nazis very cleverly and intelligently managed to take over.”

    So according to Chomsky parallels the Tea Party to Hilter’s Brown Shirts. Sorry that doesn’t wash.

    Firstly the Tea Party didn’t destroy the Left. The Left allowed Zionism to destroy it. Secondly the Tea Party is primarily Libertarian which is top WEAK to stand up to the Republican who is co-opting their movement. The Tea Party was not started by Glen Beck or Sarah Palin. They are opportunists who are largely co-opted the discontent. This clearly differs from Hitler’s rise.

    For Chomsky to make such an analogy is grossly ahistorical and is largely an inaccurate and reactionary smear against the Tea Party which essentially covers up the factors that has lead to the weakening of the Left and why the Left is unable to provide a real response to the current crisis.

  32. Jonas Rand said on October 24th, 2010 at 8:29pm #

    Deadbeat,

    “Firstly the Tea Party didn’t destroy the Left.”
    Nor did the Nazis until they attempted to take power. Also, the Left in the USA has been completely overshadowed by the Tea Party. Before Obama, there were massive groups of Leftists protesting in the streets against Iraq war, Bush administration, torture at Gitmo. After Obama, there is mostly silence on the mainstream Left about the wars still being waged and what really attracts people is the Tea Party. So the propaganda of Beck, Palin, etc. attracted more people because of the mainstream media completely ignoring torture and wars after Obama. Yes, leftist voices have been suppressed and surrounded by the “tea party”; they are liars and fascists; a 1990s “constitutionalist” militia movement that has been reinventing itself combined with Beckites and repubs is what the TP is made of. Keep in mind that Rand Paul, the Tea Party senator from Kentucky, has different views from his father, who, despite running on Repub ticket, is a Libertarian. (Wow, this political gibberish is getting confusing. This is what happens with no left in America.) It has grown to be so massive because the mainstream media is dominated by the center and the right, covering a narrow spectrum that gladly embraces anything “conservative” short of the KKK and everything to the left of Roosevelt goes unreported.

    “The Tea Party was not started by Glen Beck or Sarah Palin. They are opportunists who are largely co-opted the discontent. ”

    I agree, but the entire movement is misguided, Beckites or not. I mean, calling for an end to the bailout of financial institutions and a “bailout of the people” whilst simultaneously condemning the “Muslim Marxist”? Is this crude inanity what appeals to Americans? Are we that ignorant? (Rhetorical, I know.)

  33. Deadbeat said on October 24th, 2010 at 9:53pm #

    Jonas Rand writes …

    Deadbeat, “Firstly the Tea Party didn’t destroy the Left.”
    Nor did the Nazis until they attempted to take power.

    Sorry but you are incorrect Jonas. The Brown Shirts got started in the 20′s long before Hitler took power.

    . Also, the Left in the USA has been completely overshadowed by the Tea Party.

    The Tea Party is a relative new formation the pseudo-Left has been around much longer.

    Before Obama, there were massive groups of Leftists protesting in the streets against Iraq war, Bush administration, torture at Gitmo. After Obama, there is mostly silence on the mainstream Left about the wars still being waged and what really attracts people is the Tea Party.

    What you chose to ignore in your quasi-defense of Chomsky is how the pseudo-Left curtailed and weakened the anti-war movement. Remember “War for Oil(tm)”? You don’t here that now coming from the pseudo-Left because they have been so discredited. How about that Matt Gonzalez? Ralph Nader’s 2008 running mate. He’s supporting a pro-Israel candidate to take over Palosi’s seat. But this is who the pseudo-Left was telling us to support over Obama.

    The problem that you choose to ignore Jonas are the reason for the pathetic conditions of the Left and why the Left doesn’t pose a challenge not even to the Tea Party but to both Zionism and Capitalism.

    It is the Left that has created the vacuum and as I stated the Left has chosen and defend as its intellectual leader — a Zionist. That goes to lack of credibility and lack of trust.

    Yes, leftist voices have been suppressed and surrounded by the “tea party”;

    Really? I see Amy Goodman everyday on Democracy Now! Laura Flanders has her show. There is ZNet. The problem is they are soft on Zionism and cannot be trusted. In 2004, ZNet especially choose to support the pro-War John Kerry over anti-war Ralph Nader. And then in 2008 the pseudo-Left split their ranks between Nader and Cynthia McKinney.

    Sorry Jonas, the Left hasn’t been “censored”. That all part of the B.S. game to falsely claim impotence. We saw how the pseudo-Left behaved when there was a real challenge to Zionism. They sought to protect it.

    ” short of the KKK and everything to the left of Roosevelt goes unreported.

    Sorry Jonas that’s not true. There is a tight control of activity by the pseudo-Left of the Left.

    I agree, but the entire movement is misguided, Beckites or not. I mean, calling for an end to the bailout of financial institutions and a “bailout of the people” whilst simultaneously condemning the “Muslim Marxist”? Is this crude inanity what appeals to Americans? Are we that ignorant? (Rhetorical, I know.)

    Until the psuedo-Left is purged there will be no challenged to the Becks.

  34. hayate said on October 25th, 2010 at 2:29am #

    “Until the psuedo-Left is purged there will be no challenged to the Becks.”

    Exactly.

  35. bozh said on October 25th, 2010 at 7:16am #

    To my sad ‘surprise’ or expectation, many people [?99.99%] still have not yet eaten the words: We are a nation of laws; i.e., solely governed by the constitution.
    Which, of course, contains laws and some wishful or vague directions.

    Ok, ok! Constitution just like geneva conventions are but paper and u can wave it all u want, such paper only protects-serves a vast minority of people in india, iraq, jordan; in short, in all democracies save in switzerland; the only sane ‘democratic’ country left on earth!
    But recall please it is also timocratic to a degree!

    I have been demonized for noting that iraq represents an evil empire. But what now brown cow; after hearing what iraqis do to iraqis?
    It appears worse now than ever! The mere fact that iraq had been puppetized shld have rung some kind of bell. And even puppetized by the alien, but great criminal minds still did not jar their noggings!

    And it is just such sthinkers who keep deriding americans for their ‘stupidity’. Oh my devil, will they ever learn?

    About the constitution? It is as inanimate as a bump on a bole. Yet people cannot see it, but as some living thing; which smhow governs america.
    Yikes! Mere paper with tons of ink, ruling-guiding-tutoring americans???
    And, of course, also paperisch bible and quran guiding-tutoring free of charge about 2 bn people???
    The tithes? Oh, well, that’s payment to god and not priests; they live on air or by begging on streets!

    Alas wikileaks is also just paper; they ain’t gonna serve-protect aliens or even domestics. tnx for ur Finger! i say that just in case i get it. And boy do i ever deserve it; especially, if it comes from THE PARTY MEMBERS!

  36. jayn0t said on October 26th, 2010 at 3:08pm #

    @Jonas: `As for “white guilt”, it is probably better for Whites to try to rectify the racism, discrimination, and oppression against people of color than to blame “Jews” for all the world’s ills`.

    Well, yes. But nobody blames Jews for all the world’s ills. Some activists come out with this Borat-style exaggeration [1] to try to avoid seeing the elephant in the room: the most important form of overt racism supported by the Western world is Zionism. I’m particularly interested in the way the ‘pc left’ in the USA manages to use ‘anti white racism’ (the double entendre is deliberate) to support the aggressive promotion of Jewish ethnic interests. (I’m trying to stop using the word ‘racism’ – it’s too moralistic).

    I have a very good example of this from the co-operative movement – how closet Zionists are using pc language to undermine the nascent campaign to boycott the apartheid state.

    Just like the Israeli government and its right-wing followers, they claim that the Palestine Solidarity movement is ‘overrun’ with anti-semites – but with a twist. They claim that this alienates ‘anti-racists and radical Jews’ who would otherwise pour into America’s vibrant mass movement of solidarity with the Palestinian people. But because of these ‘anti-semites’, they find themselves unable to participate.

    Surely it is obvious that:
    a. the people who spread this slander are trying to undermine solidarity, and
    b. those who listen to their allegations don’t want to support the Palestinians anyway – they want to carry on stirring up white guilt in the interests of Jewish power
    The citation I gave from so-called Jews Against Zionism – ‘you are white’ – is a particularly clear example of this technique.

    The details of the co-op Zio-lefty pc maneuvers will be revealed in due course, if the moderators of this site allow it…

    [1] I refer to Baron Sacha-Cohen, creator of the ‘Borat’ movie, whose agenda is not as funny as his movies.

  37. catguy00 said on October 26th, 2010 at 7:02pm #

    “Until the psuedo-Left is purged ”

    …….and by “psuedo-Left” you are referring to the vast majority of the left who do not advocate the theory of Jewish global domination.

  38. 3bancan said on October 26th, 2010 at 10:20pm #

    catguy00 said on October 26th, 2010 at 7:02pm #

    ziogatto smells “an antisemitic conspiracy against Jewish global domination” and “a threat to Jewish life and to the existence of Jewish people”…

  39. Deadbeat said on October 26th, 2010 at 11:47pm #

    jaynot writes …

    The details of the co-op Zio-lefty pc maneuvers will be revealed in due course, if the moderators of this site allow it…

    I hope the moderator grants you that opportunity. I’d like to see more exploration of this issue.

  40. Evildoer said on November 4th, 2010 at 5:54pm #

    The article that the brave souls above cited as evidence of “Jewish chauvinism” and whatnot can be read here:

    http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/05/durban-and-white-zionist-alliance.html
    and here:
    http://pambazuka.org/en/category/comment/56106