• The dominate economic design, in function and in law, requires an increase in the use of materials and energy, and then distributes the wealth created by the increase to those who are said, in law, to ‘own’ the materials and energy.

This is a roundabout way of putting it, but basically reflects reality. I’m not sure if “dominate” was a typo or some kind of funny approach to grammar so I leave it as is. ?? Marx said the same thing much more simply and directly.

“…it is obvious that the most common experience, once a community is broken into those with wealth and those without wealth, is that those with wealth use it to control community law and power dominating the rest with force and fear – and today with propaganda as a thin layer over force.”

Well, I don’t think I’d call it a “thin layer”, more like a manure-slide about the thickness of the polar ice-shield, but the basic idea is correct. This is the basic reality of class society, updated to include “propaganda” where previous versions of the ruling state utilized religion as their primary ideological apparatus.

“…While all of these things are obvious if given a moment’s thought, it is also clear that the idea of private property has become the central madness of our economic system and that this madness drives growth economics so powerfully that no other idea is even allowed.”

Which is exactly what Deadbeat and myself have been saying, and what Max S has been at such pains to deny. Proudhon who wasn’t even a Marxist put it in the classic nutshell: “Property Is Theft”.
However it took Marx to explicate a bit later exactly how the enshrining of the Private Property concept as the cornerstone of the bourgeois state made “growth economics” imperative for each capitalist and for the class as a whole. Actually, once production for sale on a market becomes the predominant form of economic activity in a society, the rest follows. And continues until those who own no income-producing property unite & put a stop to the madness.

Well I think Prof Keye said some other good things but I have chores to do. Just one observation: seems to me there is considerable divergence between Keye’s take and Mr Shields’ version? No?

But when [Mr. Keyes] essays to propound about matters in the purview of Political Economy… well I wish he wouldn’t. I wish he’d stick to stuff he knows something about.

I agree with teafoe2 and appreciate his ability to find the correct words.

Being independent means perhaps you can have a cooperative movement, without celebrity “leaders” for people here to constantly bash. There are “elitist capitalist democrats” in every single category you can name–including in the black community, so it is really stupid to bring up that and think you can win an argument that way. A true environmentalist wants to change the overall system in the world, and therefore would use the internet as a tool to connect with people–because it isn’t just about whether the individual recycles or uses the best light bulbs, but ending the mining of oil, coal, natural gas–but grounding the air planes and stopping the production of stupid junk. And of course I do live a very green lifestyle but choice, to the extent that I don’t feel the need to flesh it out. I’d be quite happy with the bare minimum-no electricity, just living on an organic farming cooperative/commune in the mountains. There is no comfort in the toxic wasteland the earth is becoming.

Time out, I need to take a moment to applaud Don Hawkins for posting that list of top priority values. I agree with every item, thanks again Mr Hawkins.

Time in again, Miraglo! Miraglo: Max has posted some words I find agreeable… but alas has placed them in a context I can’t accept. “… an attempt to look at root causes and solutions rather than (at) ideology” would get my approval, but in my view does not accurately describe Mr Keye’s often insightful contributions.

My own assessment of Mr Keye’s writing is that he often comes up with startlingly perceptive descriptions of particular manifestations of the social pathology we are all forced to live with, and also of the ways said pathology induces pathological symptoms and behaviors in individuals/families/groups. He is obviously very knowledgeable in the field of Psychology, also I think in Anthropology and aspects of Sociology. But when he essays to propound about matters in the purview of Political Economy… well I wish he wouldn’t. I wish he’d stick to stuff he knows something about.
Or else make a real study of the field of Political Economy. Maybe if he really applied his obvious intelligence to it he could make a real contribution. ???

Tangential observation: it’s interesting that most rich reactionary republicans, central banksters and their pundituted thinktank gunsels have no problem describing the current system as capitalism, in fact they boast about it, praise it as a boon to “mankind”. So why do these “environmentalists” have such a problem calling a shovel a shovel?
Beats me; I really don’t understand it. I’m pretty sure it has something to do with these person’s location in or/and identification with certain “intermediate” levels in the US socio-economic pyramid. They all seem to see things from a determinedly middleclass perspective.
It is not in itself a crime to find yourself enjoying middleclass status in Capitalist America. Indeed, some of my best friends are Middleclass:) The question is, what are you going to do with it?
Politically, members of the “intermediate strata” inevitably find themselves, during periods of social instability and historical flux, faced with an unavoidable dilemma: whether to ally themselves with the class forces occupying the portion of the pyramid above them, or with class forces from lower down.

For those of us at or near the bottom things are relatively simple: those at the top are the enemy. It’s less easy for us to know what to expect from those in the middle. But when we hear people trying to tell us that the class struggle is “outmoded”, we know they have something in mind other than OUR best interests.

The “leaders” teafoe2 lists are commentators I for the most part have agreed with. I don’t think of them as anything other than what they’ve been which is commentators. Lichen and Hue Longer seem to see through Deadbeats mishmash. I don’t speak for them, nor Mr. Keyes.

And who are some of the leaders of this “independent left” you mention? I hope you don’t have in mind any of the pseudo “Left” figures/outfits who use erudite “marxist” analysis to justify support for the Democratic Party? Who encouraged members of the “progressive” movements to jump on the Obama bandwagon? Who continue to peddle the Two State Illusion, the fantasy that “given goodwill on all sides”, a negotiated solution to the I/P problem will sooner or later be achieved, we just have to show a little patience?
I hope you aren’t one of those who contends that “the state of isreal has a right to exist”?

The answer … Chomskyites.

You cannot think outside your own little box, cannot comprehend or respect the independent left who combine struggles and don’t feel the need to conform to outdated ideology

Again this statement is reflective of middle class Chomskyite ideology caused by the Left embrace of the private property relationship and the creature comforts of the living in Capitalist USA whereby elitist “environmentalists” have the leisure to contemplate their navel thereby rejecting working class Marxist analysis.

Marxism is not outdated. Marxism is very relevant and its relevancy is being seen every day as more people standard of living declines as unemployment rises, as wealth continues to concentrate, as the environment continue to get polluted, and as POWER continue to collect in the hands of the Capitalist class.

The ad hominem of Marxism being “outdated” has been the unfortunate and dominate rhetoric of the middle-class Chomskyites.

Right wing earth-killing marxism is not an answer; it too will implode. That DB venerates the verbal/emotional abuse and lack of communication skills of his uncle is highly indicative of his own character. End of story.

“Right wing earth-killing marxism” You mean like the United States? When did the USA become Marxist lichen?

Now perhaps you mean the elitist environmentalists who support the Capitalist property relations and the technological comforts like the computer you used to type your ridiculous ad hominem attack. If you are such an “environmentalist”" you would never be on the Internet since it was created by the Department of Defense (DARPA). And computers lichen? You own one right? Of course you do? What kind lichen a laptop? a PC, a Mac? You can tell us. Don’t be embarrassed lichen. We won’t call you a hypocrite.

Well, let’s see what absurdity Max comes up with next:)

The serious of Mr. Shields is again a reflection of the lack of defense of Socialist ideas by the Left over the past 40 years. This is the net effect of Chomskyism who the Left anointed as its intellectual leader. People thought they were getting an education from Chomsky when in reality what they were hearing were axioms that was presented in a vacuum due to the withdrawal from Marxist perspectives by the Left.

Max’s rhetoric sound absurd when placed in a Marxist perspective but unfortunately it is not so absurd when placed in the Middle-class Chomskyite context. This is why we have Tea Parties, Coffee Parties, and a middle class health care “movement” all doomed to failure.

Max may be pesky but his perspectives unfortunately represent mainstream Chomskyism.

As far as I’m concerned the emergence of this Tea Bag business onto the political scene is an extremely dangerous development, one reminiscent of the emergence of the National Socialist Deutsche Arbeiter Partei. Do you disagree? If so, please explain why?

Here’s my thoughts on the Tea Party. At first I thought it was a creation of Fox News but after reading Petras latest article and because my lack of trust in the Left I’ve had a rethink.

I think the original formation of the Tea Party was a response to the bank bailout to the tune of 12 trillion dollars or $40,000 per citizen!
There needed to be response however the response was infantile meaning that it lack a real Marxist basis. That lack of a Marxist basis is directly related to the Left failure during the past 40 years to defend Socialism.

There was a great critique of the ISO by WSWS that speaks to the “middle class” nature of its politics.

Part 1: The ISO and the American middle-class left

Part 2: The ISO and the American middle-class left

While I don’t fully agree with the critique I think WSWS raises an important problem about the Left that has caused the Left to withdraw from Marxism — the “middle class” tendency.

The “middle-class” tendency is why you get the perspective that is being touted by Mr. Shields and Mr. Keyes and why they fail to critique the Capitalist system. This VACUUM is why you have the emergence of the Tea Party who undeveloped political critiques are full of contradictions that leaves them vulnerable to being co-opted by the Glen Becks and Sarah Palins. IMO the co-opting of the Tea Party by the opportunistic Right-wing that will steer them in a fascist direction is the real danger rather than the Tea Party itself. The Left bears a great deal of responsibility for this outcome and IMO welcomes the opportunistic Right in order for the Left to scare progressives and especially people of color in order to give the illusion of alliance. In the end however the Left remains weak and impotent and the working class remains divided and played like fools.

DB ever read any of this…………. http://www.wcpa.biz/english/constitution/earth_constitution_executive_summary.html

Don thanks for the link. I just skimmed the material and didn’t give it a deep read. But I will later. I’m sure there are part that I agree with, parts that I’m not sure I agree with or can see where some problems could arise but I thank you for at least understanding that there need to be radical reconfigurations and challenging the property relations.

I think the biggest problem is getting everyone to understand that the Capitalist system does not work in the best interest of humans and the environment. We in the West has been indoctrinated to “love our masters” which is why you have these deep debates and disagreements regarding Capitalism. And as you remind us there not enough time to continue squabbling . Folks are going to have to shit or get of the pot.

The Fourth World has also been used to designate:
the poorest, and most undeveloped states of the world;
any oppressed or underprivileged victim of a state

Intelligent Visitors from Outer Space:
Infrequently

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/earth.htm

The inhabitants and citizens of Earth who are within the Federation of Earth shall have certain inalienable rights defined hereunder. It shall be mandatory for the World Parliament, the World Executive, and all organs and agencies of the World Government to honor, implement and enforce these rights, as well as for the national governments of all member nations in the Federation of Earth to do likewise. Individuals or groups suffering violation or neglect of such rightst shall have full recourse through the World Ombudsmus, the Enforcement System and the World Courts for redress of grievances. The inalienable rights shall include the following:

Equal rights for all citizens of the Federation of Earth, with no discrimination on grounds of race, color, caste, nationality, sex, religion, political affiliation, property, or social status.
Equal protection and application of world legislation and world laws for all citizens of the Federation of Earth.
Freedom of thought and conscience, speech, press, writing, communication, expression, publication, broadcasting, telecasting, and cinema, except as an overt part of or incitement to violence, armed riot or insurrection. Number three
Freedom of assembly, association, organization, petition and peaceful demonstration.
Freedom to vote without duress, and freedom for political organization and campaigning without censorship or recrimination.
Freedom to profess, practice and promote religious or religious beliefs or no religion or religious belief.
Freedom to profess and promote political beliefs or no political beliefs.
Freedom for investigation, research and reporting.
Freedom to travel without passport or visas or other forms of registration used to limit travel between, among or within nations.
Prohibition against slavery, peonage, involuntary servitude, and conscription of labor.
Prohibition against military conscription.
Safety of person from arbitrary or unreasonable arrest, detention, exile, search or seizure; requirement of warrants for searches and arrests.
Prohibition against physical or psychological duress or torture during any period of investigation, arrest, detention or imprisonment, and against cruel or unusual punishment.
Right of habeous corpus; no ex-post-facto laws; no double jeopardy; right to refuse self-incrimination or the incrimination of another.
Prohibition against private armies and paramilitary organizations as being threats to the common peace and safety.
Safety of property from arbitrary seizure; protection against exercise of the power of eminent domain without reasonable compensation.
Right to family planning and free public assistance to achieve family planning objectives.
Right of privacy of person, family and association; prohibition against surveillance as a means of political control.

Here we go again battling the elements for the elements and the winner is………………..

However I wonder what you mean by “outdated ideology”? Do you mean it is outdated to notice that capitalists need to make profits and accumulate more capital, on pain of being driven to bankruptcy and swallowed up by bigger and more successful capitalists?
Are you saying that the Profit Motive is outdated? Do you mean that Businessmen and Business women nowadays ARE
“in business for their health”?

And who are some of the leaders of this “independent left” you mention? I hope you don’t have in mind any of the pseudo “Left” figures/outfits who use erudite “marxist” analysis to justify support for the Democratic Party? Who encouraged members of the “progressive” movements to jump on the Obama bandwagon? Who continue to peddle the Two State Illusion, the fantasy that “given goodwill on all sides”, a negotiated solution to the I/P problem will sooner or later be achieved, we just have to show a little patience?
I hope you aren’t one of those who contends that “the state of isreal has a right to exist”?

I’ll let Deadbeat speak for himself, but all I’m asking Max for is that he be consistent in argument. That he be logical, rational, and not try to substitute unfounded assertion and namecalling for rational argument. I mean I don’t mind a little invective if it’s imaginative enough to be entertaining, but without a semblance of a rational peg to hang it on it falls flat.