Comments on: Super Rich Salvation Plan 98 http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:07:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54770 bozh Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:07:22 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54770 richard, with respect u know that i did not say: richard, tell me what NC knows-says or thinks. And i especially don't care that much what some people think and what 'zionists' think even less so, or next to zero. As i have said, NC has described situation in ME until ca '02 in the manner of many fierce antitheft-of-land people" . Btw, chomsky does not want to correspond with me any longer. And who can blame him when so many 'jews' go ballistic over the facts i posit. Yes, it seems that i have upset him. I have asked him only two questions with economy of words. He wldn't have upset self over the question of the right to return if he valued and recognized that right but he does not. tnx richard, with respect
u know that i did not say: richard, tell me what NC knows-says or thinks. And i especially don’t care that much what some people think and what ‘zionists’ think even less so, or next to zero.

As i have said, NC has described situation in ME until ca ’02 in the manner of many fierce antitheft-of-land people” .

Btw, chomsky does not want to correspond with me any longer. And who can blame him when so many ‘jews’ go ballistic over the facts i posit.
Yes, it seems that i have upset him.
I have asked him only two questions with economy of words. He wldn’t have upset self over the question of the right to return if he valued and recognized that right but he does not.
tnx

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54761 bozh Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:09:54 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54761 max, with respect, there was a point in why i want to know what NC says now about AIPAK. That was a sincere quest for knowledge about the relationship btwn congress and AIPAC and to what degree was then and now AIPAC an israeli lobby? i have an opinion; however opinion is not knowledge. We all have capacity to think. But i can assure u, max, i have no capacity or opportunity to find all the facts that pertain to congress-aipak gangsters' robbery in expalestine. I call them gangsters not because i think so but because i know it! Max, i did not ask what NC thinks ab. anything, i asked if anyone knew what NC knows now about congress-aipac relationship. Please read more carefully and don't go from memory! tnx max, with respect,
there was a point in why i want to know what NC says now about AIPAK. That was a sincere quest for knowledge about the relationship btwn congress and AIPAC and to what degree was then and now AIPAC an israeli lobby?
i have an opinion; however opinion is not knowledge. We all have capacity to think. But i can assure u, max, i have no capacity or opportunity to find all the facts that pertain to congress-aipak gangsters’ robbery in expalestine.
I call them gangsters not because i think so but because i know it!

Max, i did not ask what NC thinks ab. anything, i asked if anyone knew what NC knows now about congress-aipac relationship.
Please read more carefully and don’t go from memory! tnx

]]> By: Richard Oxman http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54751 Richard Oxman Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:00:34 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54751 The biz about asking Chomsky, Max, has to do with wanting to put to bed some of the silly accusations which fly about... about what his position is on this and that. No one at DVoice, including me, can definitively nail down his positions... like he can... with a simple missive, politely and clearly sent his way. Best, Ox The biz about asking Chomsky, Max, has to do with wanting to put to bed some of the silly accusations which fly about… about what his position is on this and that. No one at DVoice, including me, can definitively nail down his positions… like he can… with a simple missive, politely and clearly sent his way. Best, Ox

]]> By: Richard Oxman http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54749 Richard Oxman Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:56:11 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54749 I love Peter Camejo. For me, he is not dead, he will always live. But he took on Arnie on the same terms that marginalized parties have always taken on the powers that be. With an approach that demanded that he try to match his major party opposition in terms of money and recruitment and access to the media. TOSCA -- if you read more than the 9 point biz you highlighted -- clearly delineates on oxtogrind that it will not be based on that three-prong guaranteed failure of an approach. The one that the Green Party imposes on all its candidates. TOSCA is unlikely to win in the winner-take--all setup we have. However, the only chance opposition to the major parties has is to embrace a different approach. I won't go over ALL the stuff that's written down on oxtogrind re strategy/tactics, but I will point out that we intend to go in the back door, not through the front door where the major parties are blocking the entry way. For instance, we're going to have twelve or thirteen people running on our ticket. Only one working figurehead to vote for, of course, but maybe a dozen OTHERS will be in our mix... all of whom are going to come on board with their individual followings... for the purpose of recruitment. It is one thing for Peter to have dedicated citizens trying to recruit for the Green Party ticket, and quite another to have twelve Peter Camejos from different realms in society with different supporters (a believer in Rev. Wright, a believer in Code Pink, a believer in Mike Davis et al.) all organizing... all of whom have a much more vested interest in the outcome -- in their own minds, on a very immediate practical level (Like they themselves will be in on making historic decisons if they win!) -- than a dedicated college student or a part-time labor organizer can feel, contribute, etc. Just imagine Derrick Jensen, Willie Nelson, Green Day, Dick Gregory et al. all running on our ticket, all appealing to their individual followers, all making announcements at each public appearance... and -- much more importantly -- getting personal friends to get personal friends one-on-one to create a watershed in history, NOT elect a politician of a given person's choice. Part of Peter's baggage -- negative baggage -- was that... as great a person that he was, all well-intentioned as he was... he was perceived as a contending POLITICIAN. The ABB argument in terms of how people finally decide to vote is a valid point, However, we intend to circumvent that likely negative potential by going through an electoral back door, if you will. As far as that silly biz that Deadbeat keeps bring up about ICONS and ABB... that's something else. If one looks at the list of "icons" at http://oxtogrind.org/archive/336 (and not just glance at the 9-point biz), you'll quickly see that our list of supporters includes very few, if any, of the Norman Soloman variety. Beating the dead horse about Zinn and Chomsky really should be put to bed 'cause it keeps whoever keeps repeating that stuff from taking action. Deadbeat only has so many heartbeats. And if he/she chooses to spend them on trying to argue about perceived past history it removes the possibility that he/she can get on board by embracing and supporting in a proactive way the non-ABB movement that is TOSCA TODAY. Chomsky is NOT on our list, though he has contributed great advice. Zinn, who last time out voted for either Cynthia or Ralph, is on the list. And though I don't agree with what was his first recommendation for a possible working figurehead candidate for TOSCA... he is open, and certainly flying with the thrust of TOSCA, doing more for our GOAL than Deadbeat. Almost every single person on the oxtogrind 336 list would laugh at anyone suggesting ABB thinking. They are quite radical, for the most part, and the majority will be ruling TOSCA decisions, not any CLOSET ABB person who might have snuck in under the radar or who disagrees with the thrust of what the group is about... which really is at the opposite end of the spectrum from ABB... that being wanting to undermine the entire electoral system, the System in general, as it stands. And that's why certain stuff is NOT on oxtogrind. Like the way in which we intend to deal with the inevitable attempt at electoral fraud, a plan in place that was never embraced by the supporters of Peter Camejo. Again, write directly to Chomsky, Bozh. I love Peter Camejo. For me, he is not dead, he will always live. But he took on Arnie on the same terms that marginalized parties have always taken on the powers that be. With an approach that demanded that he try to match his major party opposition in terms of money and recruitment and access to the media. TOSCA — if you read more than the 9 point biz you highlighted — clearly delineates on oxtogrind that it will not be based on that three-prong guaranteed failure of an approach. The one that the Green Party imposes on all its candidates. TOSCA is unlikely to win in the winner-take–all setup we have. However, the only chance opposition to the major parties has is to embrace a different approach. I won’t go over ALL the stuff that’s written down on oxtogrind re strategy/tactics, but I will point out that we intend to go in the back door, not through the front door where the major parties are blocking the entry way. For instance, we’re going to have twelve or thirteen people running on our ticket. Only one working figurehead to vote for, of course, but maybe a dozen OTHERS will be in our mix… all of whom are going to come on board with their individual followings… for the purpose of recruitment. It is one thing for Peter to have dedicated citizens trying to recruit for the Green Party ticket, and quite another to have twelve Peter Camejos from different realms in society with different supporters (a believer in Rev. Wright, a believer in Code Pink, a believer in Mike Davis et al.) all organizing… all of whom have a much more vested interest in the outcome — in their own minds, on a very immediate practical level (Like they themselves will be in on making historic decisons if they win!) — than a dedicated college student or a part-time labor organizer can feel, contribute, etc.

Just imagine Derrick Jensen, Willie Nelson, Green Day, Dick Gregory et al. all running on our ticket, all appealing to their individual followers, all making announcements at each public appearance… and — much more importantly — getting personal friends to get personal friends one-on-one to create a watershed in history, NOT elect a politician of a given person’s choice. Part of Peter’s baggage — negative baggage — was that… as great a person that he was, all well-intentioned as he was… he was perceived as a contending POLITICIAN.

The ABB argument in terms of how people finally decide to vote is a valid point, However, we intend to circumvent that likely negative potential by going through an electoral back door, if you will. As far as that silly biz that Deadbeat keeps bring up about ICONS and ABB… that’s something else. If one looks at the list of “icons” at http://oxtogrind.org/archive/336 (and not just glance at the 9-point biz), you’ll quickly see that our list of supporters includes very few, if any, of the Norman Soloman variety. Beating the dead horse about Zinn and Chomsky really should be put to bed ’cause it keeps whoever keeps repeating that stuff from taking action. Deadbeat only has so many heartbeats. And if he/she chooses to spend them on trying to argue about perceived past history it removes the possibility that he/she can get on board by embracing and supporting in a proactive way the non-ABB movement that is TOSCA TODAY. Chomsky is NOT on our list, though he has contributed great advice. Zinn, who last time out voted for either Cynthia or Ralph, is on the list. And though I don’t agree with what was his first recommendation for a possible working figurehead candidate for TOSCA… he is open, and certainly flying with the thrust of TOSCA, doing more for our GOAL than Deadbeat.

Almost every single person on the oxtogrind 336 list would laugh at anyone suggesting ABB thinking. They are quite radical, for the most part, and the majority will be ruling TOSCA decisions, not any CLOSET ABB person who might have snuck in under the radar or who disagrees with the thrust of what the group is about… which really is at the opposite end of the spectrum from ABB… that being wanting to undermine the entire electoral system, the System in general, as it stands.

And that’s why certain stuff is NOT on oxtogrind. Like the way in which we intend to deal with the inevitable attempt at electoral fraud, a plan in place that was never embraced by the supporters of Peter Camejo.

Again, write directly to Chomsky, Bozh.

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54748 Max Shields Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:41:53 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54748 What concerns me, and perhaps there is some merit to this outcry about Chomsky's influence, is the extent to which this back and forth goes with what would "NC" say/think? I find this immature and child-like to ask Chomsky for what he "thinks" as if one does not have the capacity for thinking for oneself. What concerns me, and perhaps there is some merit to this outcry about Chomsky’s influence, is the extent to which this back and forth goes with what would “NC” say/think?

I find this immature and child-like to ask Chomsky for what he “thinks” as if one does not have the capacity for thinking for oneself.

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54742 bozh Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:42:33 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54742 In Noam Chomsky, interviewed by david barsamian, '92, NC says the following on p. 30: For example, after the last election, there was an article in one of the major israeli journals by a very good journalist named yoav karni. The headline of the article was actually a pun. It reads in hebrew "jewish money buys the vote", but it cld be also read as "Jewish money buys everything" That was the headline. Then came a report of a speech by Thomas Dine, head of israeli lobbing group in washington, AIPAC, in which he just gloated over the successes of the Jewish political lobby, the israeli political lobby here, in controlling the American congressional elections. He said that the major achievemnet was to eliminate senator charles Percy, who was too critical of israel. He went onto say that they felt that thru electoral victories they had Congress in their pocket until 2000. what wld NC say now ab. degree of control of pols by israeli lobby? Anyone know? thanks In Noam Chomsky, interviewed by david barsamian, ’92, NC says the following on p. 30:
For example, after the last election, there was an article in one of the major israeli journals by a very good journalist named yoav karni. The headline of the article was actually a pun. It reads in hebrew “jewish money buys the vote”, but it cld be also read as “Jewish money buys everything” That was the headline. Then came a report of a speech by Thomas Dine, head of israeli lobbing group in washington, AIPAC, in which he just gloated over the successes of the Jewish political lobby, the israeli political lobby here, in controlling the American congressional elections.
He said that the major achievemnet was to eliminate senator charles Percy, who was too critical of israel. He went onto say that they felt that thru electoral victories they had Congress in their pocket until 2000.

what wld NC say now ab. degree of control of pols by israeli lobby? Anyone know? thanks

]]> By: Deadbeat http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54730 Deadbeat Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:39:53 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54730 <i>I know for a fact that Chomsky is all for citizens of this country putting pressure on their own government to change the status quo in Israel. The HOW is not as important, I don’t believe, as your decision to join or not join hands in solidarity with TOSCA… or at least to make a simple statement… short… clear… as to why not.</i> Mr. Oxman's has been using a fallacy in his argument for TOSCA. The fallacy is know as a false dilemma which is also known as "black & white" thinking. It's like GWB's "if you are not with us you are against us". He has alluded several times in this discussion that those who have criticized TOSCA are essentially obstructionist to taking action. I have enumerate in details my criticism not of TOSCA goals but of TOSCA tactics and strategies. It's the strategy that I think is dubious. One aspect of Mr. Oxman's strategy is his need to recruit leftist icons who have during the past 30 years have been the real "obstructionist" by misleading the public with their issue framing. Zinn did not support Nader's 2004 run in a year that was probably the best year for the Left to take real action and build. Norman Soloman, another lefty icon, best represented the "Anybody But Bush" and debated Peter Camajo on the side of not challenging the Democrats. I need not repeat my critique of Noam Chomsky. Mr. Oxman will most likely argue that it is all in the past and that looking forward things will be different. We shouldn't shut out any voices. Clearly these icon do have a reputation and a body followers that will be needed to mobilize others in taking over California. Mr. Oxman's demands the following from Deadbeat that I keep my critique short but that a ridiculous request and an unfortunate defensive tactic that is often deployed by leftists when they are criticized. In fact it requires me to explain -- in detail -- why I think Mr. Oxman's proposal is IMO going to fail MISERABLY. The onus is on me to make the argument. And I believed that I have done so. Anyone who wishes can read the <a href="http://oxtogrind.org/archive/353" rel="nofollow">TOSCA 9-point "manifesto" on Mr. Oxman's site</a>. I raised question to each individual those points in response to Mr. Oxman's allegation that I didn't read his articles. I posted that response to make it clear that I read all the points that he is trying to promote. The biggest problem that I see with TOSCA is how a loosely confederated group of people could possible believe they can use the electoral process and win the governorship where the most organized third party effort in the last 10 years has failed. Peter Camajo had a decent showing in 2003 during the recall. Unfortunately the Governator won that election. Apparently Camajo appeal to class conflict was no match to Arnold's Hollywood appeal. In addition the recall attracted all kind of candidates (like Gary Coleman of "Facts of Life" fame) who seriousness was questionable which made a mockery of the recall. However Camejo's run gave the Green Party additional credibility and momentum heading into 2004. Rather than the left icons supporting a real challenge to the Democrats in the midst of Camejo showing and with the huge motion of the anti-war movement many of those icons decided to embrace the "Anybody But Bush/Safe State" strategy that WEAKEN the Left. Now Mr. Oxman namedrops these same icon and all of a sudden dissident should now assume a different outcome. Therefore Mr. Oxman really are asking dissidents to take a leap of faith into believing that his scheme has a chance to work and if you raise pointed questions, concerns or even logical arguments he brands you as an obstructionist or argues that you didn't read his materials or comprehend his message. I think Mr. Oxman should be grateful for vetting his scheme on Dissident Voice in order to get feedback from folks who are knowledgeable about action and strategy. No one is saying not to take action but what is needed is an EFFECTIVE strategy so that when action is taken it will result in a lasting solidarity and real results. I know for a fact that Chomsky is all for citizens of this country putting pressure on their own government to change the status quo in Israel. The HOW is not as important, I don’t believe, as your decision to join or not join hands in solidarity with TOSCA… or at least to make a simple statement… short… clear… as to why not.

Mr. Oxman’s has been using a fallacy in his argument for TOSCA. The fallacy is know as a false dilemma which is also known as “black & white” thinking. It’s like GWB’s “if you are not with us you are against us”. He has alluded several times in this discussion that those who have criticized TOSCA are essentially obstructionist to taking action. I have enumerate in details my criticism not of TOSCA goals but of TOSCA tactics and strategies. It’s the strategy that I think is dubious.

One aspect of Mr. Oxman’s strategy is his need to recruit leftist icons who have during the past 30 years have been the real “obstructionist” by misleading the public with their issue framing. Zinn did not support Nader’s 2004 run in a year that was probably the best year for the Left to take real action and build. Norman Soloman, another lefty icon, best represented the “Anybody But Bush” and debated Peter Camajo on the side of not challenging the Democrats. I need not repeat my critique of Noam Chomsky.

Mr. Oxman will most likely argue that it is all in the past and that looking forward things will be different. We shouldn’t shut out any voices. Clearly these icon do have a reputation and a body followers that will be needed to mobilize others in taking over California.

Mr. Oxman’s demands the following from Deadbeat that I keep my critique short but that a ridiculous request and an unfortunate defensive tactic that is often deployed by leftists when they are criticized. In fact it requires me to explain — in detail — why I think Mr. Oxman’s proposal is IMO going to fail MISERABLY. The onus is on me to make the argument. And I believed that I have done so.

Anyone who wishes can read the TOSCA 9-point “manifesto” on Mr. Oxman’s site. I raised question to each individual those points in response to Mr. Oxman’s allegation that I didn’t read his articles. I posted that response to make it clear that I read all the points that he is trying to promote. The biggest problem that I see with TOSCA is how a loosely confederated group of people could possible believe they can use the electoral process and win the governorship where the most organized third party effort in the last 10 years has failed.

Peter Camajo had a decent showing in 2003 during the recall. Unfortunately the Governator won that election. Apparently Camajo appeal to class conflict was no match to Arnold’s Hollywood appeal. In addition the recall attracted all kind of candidates (like Gary Coleman of “Facts of Life” fame) who seriousness was questionable which made a mockery of the recall.

However Camejo’s run gave the Green Party additional credibility and momentum heading into 2004. Rather than the left icons supporting a real challenge to the Democrats in the midst of Camejo showing and with the huge motion of the anti-war movement many of those icons decided to embrace the “Anybody But Bush/Safe State” strategy that WEAKEN the Left. Now Mr. Oxman namedrops these same icon and all of a sudden dissident should now assume a different outcome.

Therefore Mr. Oxman really are asking dissidents to take a leap of faith into believing that his scheme has a chance to work and if you raise pointed questions, concerns or even logical arguments he brands you as an obstructionist or argues that you didn’t read his materials or comprehend his message.

I think Mr. Oxman should be grateful for vetting his scheme on Dissident Voice in order to get feedback from folks who are knowledgeable about action and strategy. No one is saying not to take action but what is needed is an EFFECTIVE strategy so that when action is taken it will result in a lasting solidarity and real results.

]]> By: B99 http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54724 B99 Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:01:04 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54724 Bozh - The proper term would be 'displaced persons.' Richard Oxman is not the only person having difficulty understanding your emails. They are just filled with ideosyncracies that deter full comprehension. Bozh – The proper term would be ‘displaced persons.’

Richard Oxman is not the only person having difficulty understanding your emails. They are just filled with ideosyncracies that deter full comprehension.

]]> By: Richard Oxman http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54715 Richard Oxman Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:28:50 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54715 Thanks t b99 for inserting the positive -- typical, I find -- profile for Noam. Truly, thanks. For Buddy Bozh, I recommend that you not worry about anything we've discussed to date, and proceed -- w your quite capable self -- to send a couple of simple, clear questions Noam's way. Respect to one and all, Ricardo P.S. Just received some good inquiries about TOSCA from the realm of Orange County. Very happy 'cause that's a good area for dipping into the minority situation and the labor pool. Thanks t b99 for inserting the positive — typical, I find — profile for Noam. Truly, thanks. For Buddy Bozh, I recommend that you not worry about anything we’ve discussed to date, and proceed — w your quite capable self — to send a couple of simple, clear questions Noam’s way. Respect to one and all, Ricardo P.S. Just received some good inquiries about TOSCA from the realm of Orange County. Very happy ’cause that’s a good area for dipping into the minority situation and the labor pool.

]]> By: big bad bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54709 big bad bozh Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:51:52 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54709 richard, U are right that i did not copy and paste the chomsky's fourth reply to my fourth email. I tried to do this just now but no success. It cld be the computer. It plays all kinds of tricks on me. In any case, wld u please ask him just one question: Do you recognize the right of the expellees' descendants to return to the homes/homeland of their expelled parents or grandparents? Wld u also please use the word expellees and not refugees. A refugee takes refuge s'mwhere from danger. An expelled person does not take refuge but goes away because guns pointed at her/him. I have been suspecting for 20+ yrs that chomsky was a zionist beacause he was not adequately depicting israeli-palestinian conflict. He was accurate but not adequate. To wit: He had, as far as my memory serves, never mentioned the deletereous effect of 'jewish' religion on justice/fairness towards pal'ns nor had he mentioned the right of return. i also conjecture that 1 'jew' in 10K- 100K rejects all forms of land theft; euphemistically called "zionism" because it is much less elucidating than the term land theft with intent to murder and which cld be understod by even a seven year-old child. Richard, u may not understand what i am saying; u often complain that u do not understand me. But, if u learned journalism in US, it is no wonder u often don't understand even simplicities! richard,
U are right that i did not copy and paste the chomsky’s fourth reply to my fourth email.
I tried to do this just now but no success. It cld be the computer. It plays all kinds of tricks on me.

In any case, wld u please ask him just one question:
Do you recognize the right of the expellees’ descendants to return to the homes/homeland of their expelled parents or grandparents?

Wld u also please use the word expellees and not refugees. A refugee takes refuge s’mwhere from danger. An expelled person does not take refuge but goes away because guns pointed at her/him.

I have been suspecting for 20+ yrs that chomsky was a zionist beacause he was not adequately depicting israeli-palestinian conflict. He was accurate but not adequate.
To wit: He had, as far as my memory serves, never mentioned the deletereous effect of ‘jewish’ religion on justice/fairness towards pal’ns nor had he mentioned the right of return.

i also conjecture that 1 ‘jew’ in 10K- 100K rejects all forms of land theft; euphemistically called “zionism” because it is much less elucidating than the term land theft with intent to murder and which cld be understod by even a seven year-old child.

Richard, u may not understand what i am saying; u often complain that u do not understand me.
But, if u learned journalism in US, it is no wonder u often don’t understand even simplicities!

]]> By: b99 http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54707 b99 Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:23:54 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54707 Many years ago, in connection with a research paper on the politics of water in Palestine and Israel, I wrote Chomsky asking for leads (based on a few sentences he had regarding water issues in "The Fateful Triangle"). Chomsky got back to me promptly and with good info. Many years ago, in connection with a research paper on the politics of water in Palestine and Israel, I wrote Chomsky asking for leads (based on a few sentences he had regarding water issues in “The Fateful Triangle”). Chomsky got back to me promptly and with good info.

]]> By: Richard Oxman http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54706 Richard Oxman Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:49:20 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54706 "Making the American public aware of Zionism growing influence will help to mobilize activist in the U.S. to confront it and it would put enormous pressure to curtail support in the U.S. against Israel which would help the Palestinians." Let's take these words of yours. Not that anyone is reading this other than you. Because someone might be reading it, however,... also. Like I told you before, if you want to help the Palestinians then help us with TOSCA try to put someone into the position of pushing for boycotts, sanctions and divestment vis-a-vis the UC System in CA. Chomsky is, for all you know, all for the pressure you ask to be applied. If you take the time -- as I recommended -- to ask him directly what his current position is on all that... then you can learn the truth about it... and then share his missive with us... so that we can all learn along with you. As is stands, you are dredging up OLD stuff., perhaps assuming a lot that's not the case. Here's a way to put it all to bed... so that you aren't involved with this game of "I know how Chomsky stands and I know what's best for Palestinians, etc." If Chomsky tells you that he's for this and that... and it doesn't converge with your priorities... perhaps we'll learn WHY. I'm certainly for applying that pressure as per previous entries of mine here... and, as far as I know, so is Noam. If he's not, I'd like to know why... through your efforts. Please, if you do contact him... do so politely and in a condensed fashion so that we don't take a chance on having any of the "problems" that Bozh seems to have encountered... or feel as if he's encountered. And, as a courtesy, tell Noam that you intend to share his response with DVoice readers, something that Bozh didn't do "directly"... as recommended. Best, Ox P.S. I know for a fact that Chomsky is all for citizens of this country putting pressure on their own government to change the status quo in Israel. The HOW is not as important, I don't believe, as your decision to join or not join hands in solidarity with TOSCA... or at least to make a simple statement... short... clear... as to why not. “Making the American public aware of Zionism growing influence will help to mobilize activist in the U.S. to confront it and it would put enormous pressure to curtail support in the U.S. against Israel which would help the Palestinians.” Let’s take these words of yours.

Not that anyone is reading this other than you. Because someone might be reading it, however,… also.

Like I told you before, if you want to help the Palestinians then help us with TOSCA try to put someone into the position of pushing for boycotts, sanctions and divestment vis-a-vis the UC System in CA. Chomsky is, for all you know, all for the pressure you ask to be applied. If you take the time — as I recommended — to ask him directly what his current position is on all that… then you can learn the truth about it… and then share his missive with us… so that we can all learn along with you. As is stands, you are dredging up OLD stuff., perhaps assuming a lot that’s not the case. Here’s a way to put it all to bed… so that you aren’t involved with this game of “I know how Chomsky stands and I know what’s best for Palestinians, etc.” If Chomsky tells you that he’s for this and that… and it doesn’t converge with your priorities… perhaps we’ll learn WHY. I’m certainly for applying that pressure as per previous entries of mine here… and, as far as I know, so is Noam. If he’s not, I’d like to know why… through your efforts. Please, if you do contact him… do so politely and in a condensed fashion so that we don’t take a chance on having any of the “problems” that Bozh seems to have encountered… or feel as if he’s encountered. And, as a courtesy, tell Noam that you intend to share his response with DVoice readers, something that Bozh didn’t do “directly”… as recommended. Best, Ox P.S. I know for a fact that Chomsky is all for citizens of this country putting pressure on their own government to change the status quo in Israel. The HOW is not as important, I don’t believe, as your decision to join or not join hands in solidarity with TOSCA… or at least to make a simple statement… short… clear… as to why not.

]]> By: Deadbeat http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54705 Deadbeat Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:16:31 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54705 <i>Both Noam and I are very much in support of everything that would improve the lives of Palestinians, for sure. </i> One of the best area that will help to improve the lives of the Palestinians is to confront the growing influence of Zionism in the United States. The Left has promoted the "War for Oil" canard in order to deflect from confronting Zionism head on. Chomsky has been an apologist regarding AIPAC and continues to deny that Israel is an apartheid state. In fact in Boston last year he refuted Desmond Tutu characterization that Israel is worse than South Africa. Making the American public aware of Zionism growing influence will help to mobilize activist in the U.S. to confront it and it would put enormous pressure to curtail support in the U.S. against Israel which would help the Palestinians. Both Noam and I are very much in support of everything that would improve the lives of Palestinians, for sure.

One of the best area that will help to improve the lives of the Palestinians is to confront the growing influence of Zionism in the United States. The Left has promoted the “War for Oil” canard in order to deflect from confronting Zionism head on. Chomsky has been an apologist regarding AIPAC and continues to deny that Israel is an apartheid state. In fact in Boston last year he refuted Desmond Tutu characterization that Israel is worse than South Africa.

Making the American public aware of Zionism growing influence will help to mobilize activist in the U.S. to confront it and it would put enormous pressure to curtail support in the U.S. against Israel which would help the Palestinians.

]]> By: Richard Oxman http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54642 Richard Oxman Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:58:47 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54642 You misunderstand Chomsky. You misunderstand me. Both Noam and I are very much in support of everything that would improve the lives of Palestinians, for sure. Differences on particular aspects of their struggle is not a good subject at this point for this outlet at DV. At least I am not interested in discussing the special issues connected with their struggle in detail IF you can say -- at this juncture -- that you don't know much about TOSCA. As I pointed out, a successful TOSCA could help the Palestinians immensely. Your pov concerning what is necessary for success in California is neither here nor there if you haven't read about our planned approach in detail. I'm sorry to have to let go of some of your questions concerning your correspondence with others and the lack of clarity I experienced with you... but, as I pointed out... there is a lot to embrace, to discuss with me... if you are interested in taking some steps in action. In something other than ongoing talk only. Best, Ox You misunderstand Chomsky. You misunderstand me. Both Noam and I are very much in support of everything that would improve the lives of Palestinians, for sure. Differences on particular aspects of their struggle is not a good subject at this point for this outlet at DV. At least I am not interested in discussing the special issues connected with their struggle in detail IF you can say — at this juncture — that you don’t know much about TOSCA. As I pointed out, a successful TOSCA could help the Palestinians immensely. Your pov concerning what is necessary for success in California is neither here nor there if you haven’t read about our planned approach in detail. I’m sorry to have to let go of some of your questions concerning your correspondence with others and the lack of clarity I experienced with you… but, as I pointed out… there is a lot to embrace, to discuss with me… if you are interested in taking some steps in action. In something other than ongoing talk only. Best, Ox

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54633 bozh Tue, 15 Sep 2009 00:11:17 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54633 richard, you do not specify which of my statements u cannot understand. such as "palestinians were expelled with the aim that they never return and they were barred from returning from day one". Why is this statement not clear to u? And u can reread chomsky's answer and tell me what he meant? Did he not mean that the offspring of the original expellees have no right of return? it is clear to me that he allows only those expelees to return who were one or two yrs old in '48 and now anywhere from 62-90+ yrs old! why do u complain ab. not providing u with exact words chomsky used when i did just that? I don't think u read carefully what i write because some of the people that don't understand my statements are always the people who disagree with those statements. For if u don't understand them, how can u know that they are wrong. And why all this lectures and complaints? Is it not civil to say that if one does not understand such and such statement or all of the statements and ask the person to rephrase so as to eventually make them clear. what is this ab. not understanding the thread? Are u not aware that that represents insult as u posit tacitly the notion that the person u say that to is at sea. Look, pal'ns were expelled by violence. They were not allowed to return! And chomsky does not respect that right. The right of return applies also to the offspring and if for no other reason than the fact that they were barred from returning in '48-49. Chomsky's objection to the return of the descendants wld have never arisen if it wasn't for the criminal behavior of the christo-talmudic crowd and their deliberate delay of peace treaty so as to steal more land and prevent the return of oldsters and their offspring . I do not know much ab tosca. But i know a lot ab. the structure of society in california and other states. In short, it is and always had been everywhere a cosa nostra of the patricians and now mutlti-millionaires and billionairs and cosas mias for lower classes. If u can create from ab. 95% of californians [each looking for cosa mia] our cosa nostra; such united multitude for free higher education, heatlh care, and the right to be informed, cld face their cosa nostra and make it at least blink. If cosas mias, split asunder in hundreds of orgs, movements, personal grievances, causes, etc., remain unchanged, the 10K yrs of plutocratuc rule wld remain. Even if u only get 70-80% of californians onside for free higher education, right to be informed, healthcare, etc., and applying massive passive resistance against their cause, things cld finally change for better for all americans. One needs the right and the left onside for that. Without support from the right, the left cannot, i think, obtain much. richard,
you do not specify which of my statements u cannot understand.
such as “palestinians were expelled with the aim that they never return and they were barred from returning from day one”.
Why is this statement not clear to u?

And u can reread chomsky’s answer and tell me what he meant? Did he not mean that the offspring of the original expellees have no right of return?
it is clear to me that he allows only those expelees to return who were one or two yrs old in ’48 and now anywhere from 62-90+ yrs old!

why do u complain ab. not providing u with exact words chomsky used when i did just that? I don’t think u read carefully what i write because some of the people that don’t understand my statements are always the people who disagree with those statements.
For if u don’t understand them, how can u know that they are wrong. And why all this lectures and complaints? Is it not civil to say that if one does not understand such and such statement or all of the statements and ask the person to rephrase so as to eventually make them clear.

what is this ab. not understanding the thread? Are u not aware that that represents insult as u posit tacitly the notion that the person u say that to is at sea.

Look, pal’ns were expelled by violence. They were not allowed to return! And chomsky does not respect that right. The right of return applies also to the offspring and if for no other reason than the fact that they were barred from returning in ’48-49.
Chomsky’s objection to the return of the descendants wld have never arisen if it wasn’t for the criminal behavior of the christo-talmudic crowd and their deliberate delay of peace treaty so as to steal more land and prevent the return of oldsters and their offspring .

I do not know much ab tosca. But i know a lot ab. the structure of society in california and other states.
In short, it is and always had been everywhere a cosa nostra of the patricians and now mutlti-millionaires and billionairs and cosas mias for lower classes.
If u can create from ab. 95% of californians [each looking for cosa mia] our cosa nostra; such united multitude for free higher education, heatlh care, and the right to be informed, cld face their cosa nostra and make it at least blink.

If cosas mias, split asunder in hundreds of orgs, movements, personal grievances, causes, etc., remain unchanged, the 10K yrs of plutocratuc rule wld remain.

Even if u only get 70-80% of californians onside for free higher education, right to be informed, healthcare, etc., and applying massive passive resistance against their cause, things cld finally change for better for all americans.
One needs the right and the left onside for that. Without support from the right, the left cannot, i think, obtain much.

]]> By: Richard Oxman http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54620 Richard Oxman Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:36:41 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54620 I don't want you to feel badly, Bozh, but I'm having great difficulty understanding the thread of your thoughts too. I requested that you provide Chomsky's response (as it was written) for good reason, but you've explained that you cannot do that in the form that I requested. Fine. I also recommended that you approach him a certain way. To avoid some of what you encountered. I don't think that you did that judging from what you've written above. Fine. Jeffrey is not needed here. His differences with Chomsky are well known. They are no more important at this juncture than asking you to read Chomsky's latest blah blah on the Palestinians or his old Fateful Triangle. AS FAR AS DOING SOMETHING FOR THE PALESTINIANS, HOWEVER, both you and Jeffrey might consider -- should consider, I believe -- getting on board with TOSCA.. because regardless of these endless OLD arguments about Noam vis-a-vis the Palestinians... the TOSCA PLAN can do an enormous amount of good for those immissertaed by Israel. The UC System -- so "controlled" by the Governor of California, so influenced by him/her -- could lead the way in divestment... could lecture re boycott and sanctions... with a national spotlight on her/him. If that's the way you and/or Jeffrey would like to proceed. Arguments about Noam are beside the point, and draining. Postive action is not. And, besides, I do believe that Chomsky would be on board enthusiastically with a helluva lot of ACTION that would bring a smile to your face, to JB's face, and, more importantly, to the faces of many Palestinians. Loving best, The Ox I don’t want you to feel badly, Bozh, but I’m having great difficulty understanding the thread of your thoughts too. I requested that you provide Chomsky’s response (as it was written) for good reason, but you’ve explained that you cannot do that in the form that I requested. Fine. I also recommended that you approach him a certain way. To avoid some of what you encountered. I don’t think that you did that judging from what you’ve written above. Fine. Jeffrey is not needed here. His differences with Chomsky are well known. They are no more important at this juncture than asking you to read Chomsky’s latest blah blah on the Palestinians or his old Fateful Triangle. AS FAR AS DOING SOMETHING FOR THE PALESTINIANS, HOWEVER, both you and Jeffrey might consider — should consider, I believe — getting on board with TOSCA.. because regardless of these endless OLD arguments about Noam vis-a-vis the Palestinians… the TOSCA PLAN can do an enormous amount of good for those immissertaed by Israel. The UC System — so “controlled” by the Governor of California, so influenced by him/her — could lead the way in divestment… could lecture re boycott and sanctions… with a national spotlight on her/him. If that’s the way you and/or Jeffrey would like to proceed. Arguments about Noam are beside the point, and draining. Postive action is not. And, besides, I do believe that Chomsky would be on board enthusiastically with a helluva lot of ACTION that would bring a smile to your face, to JB’s face, and, more importantly, to the faces of many Palestinians. Loving best, The Ox

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54615 bozh Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:11:32 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54615 richard, yes, i cld have printed or pasted all four of chomsky's responses to me over the last few days. Unfortunately, i don't know how to do that. I am very poor with typing and doing stuff with computer. If you wld like, i can scribble dwn what he said . He started conversation with: "I'm afraid i can't make much sense of this. A few comments and then i think we shld agree that we can't communicate sensibly." This is more or less OK. I wld not talk to people like that! In replying to my: "Palestinians were expelled with the aim that they never return. They were barred from returning after day one. Even so, some of the people who were expelled or fled for fear of life, are still alive. You aslo confirmed this, i'v noted. NC replies: "I'm glad you agree with what i've said all my life, even as the numbers have very sharply diminished- and of course the issue has not been that, but their descendants, not covered by 194 or any other int'l instrument" A caveat! I have never stated that the descendants have no right to; thus i do not agree with him that solely palestinans who were born before '48 have the right to return. As for res. 194, i must seeek help from experts; such as jeff blankford. If he reads this post i hope he'll explain res. 242, 194, and 181. Re: 181 NC says: "181 says nothing ab. the matter, and reference to mit is meaningless for reasons that are well understood, not least because pal'ns rejected it w. much justice" I've read s'mwhere that res. 181 stipulated that israel must allow return in exchange for its mebership in UN. I need help here. There is more in his today's mail. But i've alread y taken whole hour just to put this much dwn. And it does not pertain to the right of return. tnx richard,
yes, i cld have printed or pasted all four of chomsky’s responses to me over the last few days. Unfortunately, i don’t know how to do that. I am very poor with typing and doing stuff with computer.
If you wld like, i can scribble dwn what he said . He started conversation with:
“I’m afraid i can’t make much sense of this. A few comments and then i think we shld agree that we can’t communicate sensibly.” This is more or less OK. I wld not talk to people like that!

In replying to my:
“Palestinians were expelled with the aim that they never return. They were barred from returning after day one.
Even so, some of the people who were expelled or fled for fear of life, are still alive. You aslo confirmed this, i’v noted.

NC replies:
“I’m glad you agree with what i’ve said all my life, even as the numbers have very sharply diminished- and of course the issue has not been that, but their descendants, not covered by 194 or any other int’l instrument”

A caveat! I have never stated that the descendants have no right to; thus i do not agree with him that solely palestinans who were born before ’48 have the right to return.
As for res. 194, i must seeek help from experts; such as jeff blankford. If he reads this post i hope he’ll explain res. 242, 194, and 181.

Re: 181 NC says:
“181 says nothing ab. the matter, and reference to mit is meaningless for reasons that are well understood, not least because pal’ns rejected it w. much justice”

I’ve read s’mwhere that res. 181 stipulated that israel must allow return in exchange for its mebership in UN. I need help here. There is more in his today’s mail. But i’ve alread y taken whole hour just to put this much
dwn.
And it does not pertain to the right of return. tnx

]]> By: Richard Oxman http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54572 Richard Oxman Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:47:45 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54572 There are too many words here clouding, creating confusion. I recommend that each reader who is sincerely interested in getting clarification on TOSCA limit themselves to a single question. One at a time. And, then, we can go back and forth... right here, if you like, or via tosca.2010]atat[yahoo.com. Instead of my trying to respond to each and every fevered pronouncement, the emotional diarrhea. That's NOT to be disrespectful. Seriously, one point at a time, please, if you will. That way one and all can more easily digest what each of us has to say. What aspect, what concern regarding TOSCA do you have? Prioritize, please. For the moment, let me take up one point made above... which, if they links provided had been read, might have been answered. To wit, the question of HOW one can attract people who have cynically dropped out of the electoral arena. That IS a fundamentally sound question. And it deserves a REPEAT answer. First of all, TOSCA is ultimately about undermining electoral politics as it stands for the very MAIN reason many people have rejected the arena. Only 39% voted in the last CA gubernatorial election, and so... TOSCA's interest is in the very group that has chosen to stay away. You can begin to reach those people one-on-one... as I've underscored before many times here... with a recruited friend approaching their closest friends for starters... easily showing how the people connected with TOSCA are a far cry from anything that electoral politics has ever offered up. "Corruption" is not conceivable with the people who will be on our slate. Money will be a zero factor in all TOSCA does. Power will be shared for the first time in history. All decision-making will be filmed for public consumption live, daily. Access to our group of a dozen or their very close associates will be easy, with no generic communications used... ever. These are just some of the appeals that can be used AMONG FRIENDS for starters... to motivate someone who has no intention of having anything to do with politics anymore. People WANT to be involved, but they need to be given NEW reasons for getting engaged again, or engaged for the first time. We have that to offer. A number of things, as, again, I've said before, like how we intend to deal with the inevitability of electoral fraud will not be discussed ahead of time, except on a need to know basis in confidence, in private... as people come on board. BUT... questions like what I'm trying to address above CAN be answered in detail right now. For the issue above, if you are interested I have even more to delineate. Ditto respecting other issues... which I look forward to readers bringing up AGAIN... SO THAT WE CAN DEAL WITH WHAT'S MOST IMPORTANT TO YOU FIRST... and then move on... hopefuly culminating in readers participating in action... not just posing questions as an excuse to avoid involvement at any cost. Love, Richard There are too many words here clouding, creating confusion. I recommend that each reader who is sincerely interested in getting clarification on TOSCA limit themselves to a single question. One at a time. And, then, we can go back and forth… right here, if you like, or via tosca.2010]atat[yahoo.com. Instead of my trying to respond to each and every fevered pronouncement, the emotional diarrhea. That’s NOT to be disrespectful. Seriously, one point at a time, please, if you will. That way one and all can more easily digest what each of us has to say. What aspect, what concern regarding TOSCA do you have? Prioritize, please. For the moment, let me take up one point made above… which, if they links provided had been read, might have been answered. To wit, the question of HOW one can attract people who have cynically dropped out of the electoral arena. That IS a fundamentally sound question. And it deserves a REPEAT answer.

First of all, TOSCA is ultimately about undermining electoral politics as it stands for the very MAIN reason many people have rejected the arena. Only 39% voted in the last CA gubernatorial election, and so… TOSCA’s interest is in the very group that has chosen to stay away. You can begin to reach those people one-on-one… as I’ve underscored before many times here… with a recruited friend approaching their closest friends for starters… easily showing how the people connected with TOSCA are a far cry from anything that electoral politics has ever offered up. “Corruption” is not conceivable with the people who will be on our slate. Money will be a zero factor in all TOSCA does. Power will be shared for the first time in history. All decision-making will be filmed for public consumption live, daily. Access to our group of a dozen or their very close associates will be easy, with no generic communications used… ever. These are just some of the appeals that can be used AMONG FRIENDS for starters… to motivate someone who has no intention of having anything to do with politics anymore. People WANT to be involved, but they need to be given NEW reasons for getting engaged again, or engaged for the first time. We have that to offer.

A number of things, as, again, I’ve said before, like how we intend to deal with the inevitability of electoral fraud will not be discussed ahead of time, except on a need to know basis in confidence, in private… as people come on board. BUT… questions like what I’m trying to address above CAN be answered in detail right now. For the issue above, if you are interested I have even more to delineate. Ditto respecting other issues… which I look forward to readers bringing up AGAIN… SO THAT WE CAN DEAL WITH WHAT’S MOST IMPORTANT TO YOU FIRST… and then move on… hopefuly culminating in readers participating in action… not just posing questions as an excuse to avoid involvement at any cost. Love, Richard

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54565 Max Shields Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:37:32 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54565 And Deadbeat what do YOU suggest is a means of "distributing wealth"? And Deadbeat what do YOU suggest is a means of “distributing wealth”?

]]> By: Deadbeat http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/09/super-rich-salvation-plan-98/#comment-54562 Deadbeat Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:52:14 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=10472#comment-54562 <i>I recommend that the top 2% of the country’s population (holding almost all of the nation’s “financial wealth”) be forced to release a small portion of their fluid reserves immediately so that the lower 98% of our population benefits at once. </i> Yeah Oxman you are heading in the right direction but I'm not certain that TOSCA is going to achieve redistribution of wealth. But it could help bring attention to dreadful inequality that exist. I recommend that the top 2% of the country’s population (holding almost all of the nation’s “financial wealth”) be forced to release a small portion of their fluid reserves immediately so that the lower 98% of our population benefits at once.

Yeah Oxman you are heading in the right direction but I’m not certain that TOSCA is going to achieve redistribution of wealth. But it could help bring attention to dreadful inequality that exist.

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