Drones and Dishonor in Central New York

If war becomes unreal to the citizens of modern democracies, will they care enough to restrain and control the violence exercised in their name? Will they do so, if they and their sons and daughters are spared the hazards of combat?

– Michael Ignatieff, Virtual War (2000)

The drones are coming. Readers of the Syracuse Post-Standard know that the drones (a.k.a. “Reapers”) are arriving at our local New York Air National Guard Base at Hancock Airport.

These Reapers are a new level of aerial warfare. They are high-flying, sharp-shooting, 36-foot long robots. They are crewless – remote-controlled – aircraft. Although they are unmanned, drones do have “pilots.” Those pilots operate in front of computer screens in ground control rooms far from any target.

Last year our former Congressperson, James Walsh (R-NY), hailed the arrival of the Reaper. Not only will it provide a few jobs, but this killer allows, Jim said, pilots to be “literally fighting a war in Iraq and at the end of their shift be playing with their kids in Camillus” (P-S, 25 June 2008, page A1 ).

Drones surveil the US/Mexico and US/Canada borders. In Gaza, the Israeli Air Force uses them to assassinate Palestinians. In its various overseas wars, the US military has come to depend on drones to assassinate humans while bombing vehicles and buildings. Drones preying on Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan are piloted from Creech Air Base in Nevada. Beginning this November, Reapers will also be piloted from here in Central New York.

Because drones seem in the short term and within narrow contexts to reduce US casualties, some cheer them on. However – and this is essential – drones make war easier to initiate… and perpetuate. The folks back home wouldn’t even need to hear about the drones’ brave deeds. No thought-provoking body bags – at least not here at home.

Like many other high-tech weapons, drones are indiscriminate: they can kill offensively or defensively, invaders or resisters. They kill combatants and non-combatants, adults and children. Because most victims are civilian, drones are terrorist.

Terror isn’t just something “they” do. Perpetrators of terrorism can have dark skin or light, be “Islamic” or “Christian.” Terrorists can be states or non-state actors. Terrorist budgets can be scanty or vast. Terrorist weapons can be low-tech or high-tech. They can be launched from land, sea or air.

Like other forms of aerial warfare, drones may well spawn reactive terrorism. Because they kill and maim mostly civilians, drones incite hatred. Such hatred could lead to retaliatory strikes either today or when the victims’ survivors come of age. Those strikes could target any of the hundreds of US military bases bestriding the globe.

They could also target any of the domestic bases from which the drones are piloted. Like it or not, without our consent, Central New York is becoming part of the battleground. (Note: I have no desire to feed into the “fear-of-terrorism” industry, but Central New Yorkers ought to be aware that hosting drones may have blowback.)

Besides being indiscriminate and terrorist, aerial warfare is cowardly. Think about the various devices of aerial maiming and massacre (napalm, white phosphorus, cluster bombs, depleted uranium, cruise missiles…). For decades aerial warfare has been the weapon of rich, powerful, high-tech nations bullying poor, weak, low-tech nations. Apart from a steely will to resist, these latter nations have few defenses. So corrupted now is any notion of military honor that our war-besotted culture no longer even thinks about a “level playing field.” Seldom are warplanes used to defend a nation from attack or from threats to its sovereignty. Generally warplanes – robotic or not – are the aggressor, the violator of others’ sovereignty.

Drones raise cowardice to new heights. Unlike World War II bombardiers or pilots of other pre-robotic aircraft, drone pilots take no risk. Anti-aircraft artillery will never reach them. They shoot goldfish in a goldfish bowl. The various branches of the service use aerial weapons imagery – invariably phallic – to recruit gutsy, often idealistic, kids. In time many of them learn the hard way that enlisting has little to do with defending their country, defending “freedom,” or spreading “democracy.”

Many fail to come home intact. Few find glory, few find honor. Some then realize that only corporations – the organizational mirror image of drones – profit from war.

Drive out the Drone

Work with your local peace group to end the wars where drones are being used. At the Syracue Peace Council we seek to demystify the macho militarism that permeates our culture. We seek to expose the emperor’s nakedness. The Peace Council staunchly opposes “our” overseas wars. Only in macho fantasy can more war make this a better world. Like cancer, war spreads.

Write letters to your Congress people opposing the Reaper. Even better: write letters to the editor. A published letter will be read, not only by the influential editors, but also by tens of thousands of readers. (And by Congressional staffers.) Since the Reaper will be piloted from Central New York, write to the Syracuse Post-Standard. Our local daily has publicized the Reaper’s arrival in more or less neutral terms; urge the editors to speak out against it.

And do your homework. You might ask your local library to order P.W. Singer’s, Wired for War: the Robotics Revolution and Conflict in the 21st Century (Penguin, 2009). Be sure to read chapter 9, “The Refuseniks: The Roboticists Who Just Say No.”

Ed served 14 months in federal prisons for his civil resistance against the SOA. More recently he has been one of the “Hancock 2,” the “Hancock 15,” the “Hancock 33,” and the “Hancock 38.” Reach him at: edkinane@verizon.net. Read other articles by Ed.

72 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. John S. Hatch said on September 25th, 2009 at 3:14pm #

    A good article, and well articulated.

    But I fear that would even consider employing those evil things;

    That would stand by as an ex-Vice President shrieks for MORE torture and murder;

    That would elect a President on promises of change who then changes things for the worse;

    That can’t find money for health care or (decent) education, or to save peoples’ homes, but can find a trillion for Wall Street crooks and can always come up with funding for bullets, bombs and military bases;

    Such a society is doomed.

  2. rosemarie jackowski said on September 25th, 2009 at 3:52pm #

    Ed- you are lucky if your Syracuse newspaper publishes your letters to the editor. In Vermont there is a lot of censorship by the newspapers, and letters, such as the one you suggest, would probably not get published .

    The drones and the troops that control them are going to be an increasingly serious problem. Getting locals to protest them might be hard if it is thought that they help the economy in any way.

    There is a related problem – military contracts being awarded all over the country. Peace groups usually are silent because the contracts mean jobs. I have written about this issue in an article titled AN IMPORTANT MORAL QUESTION. The article is on the web but censored in Vermont.
    http://world.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/64049

  3. Mulga Mumblebrain said on September 25th, 2009 at 4:35pm #

    The essential cowardice of US war-making has always been evident. From the Indian Wars to Iraq, the US has always targeted civilians, practised terrorist tactics, mass torture and the use of overwhelming force to avoid man-to-man combat wherever possible. While Yanks love killing for truth, justice and ‘the American Way’ ( to paraphrase Adam Smith’s ‘vile maxim’ ‘Everything for me, and nothing for the niggers’), they are much less keen to die for it. What they need, to teach them some collective lesson in humility, humanity and the universality of suffering, is to be invaded and see their land laid waste, as the Russians, Chinese, Indians and Europeans have endured for millenia.
    Central to Yankee murderousness, the ready recourse to carpet-bombing, ‘free-fire zones’, ‘counter-insurgency’ (ie targeting the civilian population amongst whom the guerilla fish swim, in Mao’s theory)and the dehumanising rhetoric and propaganda that accompanies it, is visceral racism. Drawing from the deep well-springs of Western Civilizational contempt for non-Europeans and the religiously ecstatic racism and chauvinism (and genocidism)of the Old Testament, the Yanks have always regarded their victims as little more than vermin, to be swept aside. The indigenous were simply exterminated, reduced in numbers by over 90%, or, as in California, utterly extirpated. Hundreds of treaties made with the indigenous were absolutely repudiated, without exception. The likeness to Israeli duplicity with the Palestinians, similarly envisaged as sub-human inferiors, is compelling.
    The first Yankee colonial adventure, the seizure of the Philippines, was brutal, racist and treacherous in the extreme. Hundreds of thousands of ‘savages’ were murdered in exemplary massacres, and torture, including the ‘water cure’ ie water-boarding, was widespread, and wielded, as it is today in Israel, Iraq and Afghanistan, as a weapon of mass intimidation and demoralisation against populations viewed as animals, and to slake the psychopathic sadism of the torturers.
    There followed a century of horror and terror, with the Yanks themselves leading the way, or with the dirty work done by a legion of psychotic monsters, their ‘allies’, creatures like Pinochet, Rios Montt, Park, Diem, Suharto, Batista, Noriega, even Pol Pot after his overthrow by the Vietnamese, aided, abetted, financed and trained in terror and torture by the US. Tens of millions were slaughtered, saw their children needlessly perish, were driven from home or suffered poverty and premature death, and yet, through it all, the US, parroted by its legions of toadying arse-lickers throughout the world, demanded adulation as a force for morality and good.
    Today’s world, where the US Moloch has burned itself up in an orgy of elite hyper-greed facilitated by mass moroncy and ruthlessly enforced ignorance and false consciousness amongst the lumpen numb-skulls, and where its only remaining strong-point is military might and the exercise of intimidatory violence, is dreadfully dangerous. But that will come as no news to those who have experienced Yankee savagery over the last few decades. The US task now is to maintain its global empire of ‘Full Spectrum Dominance’, into the future, to keep the system of imperial pillage of the poor world intact and to keep the bone-heads at home from waking up to the reality of their status as serfs in a neo-feudal system. As ever, the answer is perpetual war, perpetual fear-mongering, paranoia and hatred. Hence the FoxNews and talk-back radio phenomena, a media apparatus designed to foment rage and fury.
    Drones, and other Satanic manifestations of death worship, like killer robots, depleted uranium and bacteriological weapons genetically engineered to target specific groups are symptoms of a system based on murder and intimidation reaching a cataclysmic crisis. So widespread is insistent lying, demonisation, denigration and de-humanisation of certain groups, now the Moslems, the Iranians and Palestinians in particular, tomorrow it will be the Chinese and Russians, that you must suspect even greater prodigies of mass murder are at hand. Two hundred years of history tells us that the US, and its lick-spittles, can not long exist without someone to massacre. The unfortunate, deluded Gorbachev, who still does not seem to appreciate that with which he was dealing, said that he ‘Would take away America’s enemy’, supposedly to everyone’s benefit. Alas, he did not realise that the US cannot exist without enemies, that the motor forces of its system are greed, egomania and hatred, and that, as we have seen, taking away the countervailing force of the USSR has simply granted the US a free hand to run amok and terrorise the planet.

  4. lichen said on September 25th, 2009 at 4:58pm #

    “Not only will it provide a few jobs, but this killer allows, Jim said, pilots to be “literally fighting a war in Iraq and at the end of their shift be playing with their kids in Camillus””

    Great, so the “troops” can get ptsd while murdering civilians all day, and then end their shift to go home and drink, beat their kids. What a wonderful world… War is ecocide; the copenhagen agreement won’t matter if governments insist on polluting the world with illegal war.

  5. Annie Ladysmith said on September 25th, 2009 at 11:32pm #

    AW! CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!
    Yeah! the Chinese, ya know our favorite trading partner, know all about drones, they know all about our technology in general, and what they don’t know they are busy working on, that’s why they have a 2 million size army that’s training night and day.

    I guess the Chinese are just not into real robots since they have so many humans they can turn into robots. And yes, it is true that they are trained to be like a tsuname, the guy drops in front of you, ya just run over him and keep going, just like a robot.

    My point is: we have been led to believe that a standing army with reserves is obsolete, and they want the American people to give up their weapons, or more properly they are trying to figure out how to get those guns from Americans, so, who is going to stop that Chino-inhuman-wave-army when they crash ashore on the West Coast? We, in America, are not immune from invasion, every day i see that possibility more clearly.

    So maybe you want peace but no drones, and that’s really a unique idea, that we could all live together in a commie utopia, but maybe you should tell the Chinese that we’re all planning to get along and then ask them why they have a standing army of 2 MILLION regulars, with 10 million in reserve.

  6. russell olausen said on September 26th, 2009 at 1:03am #

    All this technology, multiplies the essence of what we were before we came up with it. A nasty sadistic zealot who throws cats down manholes now has real scope. He is now a guard of technologically induced morons who only understand the viseral. Boogy on, all you tom,tom players. Far enough away from humanity and being existentially secure can make this feel like a Three Stooges marathon and that why it goes on.

  7. maien said on September 26th, 2009 at 1:26am #

    great article, thx. informative.

    and Mulga, I look forward to your commentaries (and lichen as well).

    You help to make the information impossible to ignore.

  8. bozh said on September 26th, 2009 at 7:55am #

    Well, use of drones appear better than the use of wmd. But if nato get’s more frustrated, it may use that and even ‘better’ drones, missiles, shells, bullets, and bombs.
    Nato cannot fail in iraq, afpak, or palestine. Because it will be the 98+% of the right wing americans, led by ab. 003+% even more right wing americans who will ‘explain’ the final result in these lands.
    The results wld be ‘explained’ as succeses; more specifically, as wars against ‘terror’; for democracy; defence of freedoms, US interests.
    Wasn’t atomization of hiroshima and nagasaki accurately and adequately ‘explained’ to almost every american child and adult?

    This is why i do not favor military resistance against nato. I am also not in favor of warfare in name of any ‘god’, or rather, ulema’s ‘explanations’ of what ‘god’ want muslims to do or their command how shld people behave.
    The time has come to cry uncle.
    No single land can fight planetarianism. It is too strong to even delay it let alone prevent it even if all afrikan and asian lands united to militarily resist it.
    In this connection, let us remember native a merry gos. tnx

  9. Mulga Mumblebrain said on September 26th, 2009 at 2:22pm #

    I believe that the drones have a ‘success rate’ in Pakistan of 6%. That itself is probably a mendacious exaggeration. The rest, the women, children and old people, the animals as well (very Old Testament), are all ‘collateral damage’, in that revealingly contemptuous euphemism. The drone attacks are not about ‘decapitation’ of the Taliban. After all, as Israel discovered when they killed the previous Hezbollah leader (and his family, of course, a ‘mitzvah’ don’t you know)and ‘promoted’ the brilliant Nasrallah, the second-in-commands often prove more capable than their predecessors. No, the drone attacks are all about terrorising the civilians who support the guerillas (in their own land, never forget)in a vain attempt to intimidate, and feeding the insatiable bloodlust of Yankee psychopaths. That is the unspoken reality of Yankee belligerence-these evil bastards love to kill. It makes them feel big, it compensates for inner feelings of impotence in the face of death (others rely on vulgar religiosity)and it feeds on a bottomless well of hatred of other people. The individual who sends a Hellfire missile crashing into a village, knowing full well that over 90% of the casualties will be innocents, then goes home to play with the kids, is a fiend, a tiny little excrescence of evil, bubbling up from the sea of wickedness that is the real essence of ‘American exceptionalism’. And, just like the ‘Wild West’ where the vast majority of the killings were by a shot in the back, or a bayonet as Crazy Horse learned, cowardice is the norm.

  10. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on September 27th, 2009 at 3:48am #

    THERE IS NOTHING MORE COWARDLY THAN AN ISLAMIC TERRORIST WALKING IN TO A PIZZA PARLOUR,APARTMENT STORE OR SUBWAY TRAIN AND BLOWING HIM OR HERSELF UP KILLING EVERYONE CLOSE TO HIM OR HER.
    MUGLA–YOU WOULD CALL THEM HEROES BECAUSE THAT’S THE WAY YOUR DISTORTED MIND WORKS

  11. B99 said on September 27th, 2009 at 4:46am #

    Nothing more cowardly than an Islamic terrorist… except a Jewish terrorist whose assignment upon graduating high school is to leave his country, put a child’s abdomen between the cross hairs of his gun, and fire. Repeat as necessary. Jews in Israel are taught that this is normal behavior, a rite of passage. Such behavior, a means of getting Palestinians to leave their ancient homeland, is viewed as heroic among Jews everywhere.

  12. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on September 27th, 2009 at 6:29am #

    LYING AGAIN b99
    do you ever tell the truth?

    Jews in Israel are taught that this is normal behavior, a rite of passage.

    all lies and you know it is.
    only your fellow jew haters would believe it
    ask any army expert —to shoot anyone,even suicide bombers,in the abdomen runs the risk of detonation
    you shoot at the head

  13. bozh said on September 27th, 2009 at 8:41am #

    As our Dear Leader [bush] said: u’r w. us or against us! This means, ithinks, that one must be on plutocratic side. ‘Zionism’ is on plutocratic side.
    The petty larceny by mul[a]tos appears right now just that: an acre here, house land or couple of trees there.

    But, of course, if an euro is 70% pole, 20% lett, 5% german, 3% czech and a bit zulu, apache, akkadian, ugandan, et al, that person is nevertheless, 100% hebraic by a miraculous act of the hebrew ‘god’ and tho hebrews being largely or completele absent from the unholy land for ca. 1900 yrs, that land is nevertheless her/his.
    Thus that person is ‘justified’ in expelling and killing nonhebrews or even hebrews who have forgotten who really they are.
    And even tho a pole and his ancestors were hebrews for 2k yrs, the pole and all his ancestors on reaching europe some 2k yrs ago have forgotten their mosheic language but only remembered the ‘holy’ land.

    And they did not want to return to their ‘rightful’ homeland for 2k yrs because they found euros easy game and easy life for them there.
    Yahweh, of cousre, can do all that. He has his own logic and purpose.
    The problem is only 00000001% of people believe [and not know, but believe] that.
    My bet is that the knowledge will prevail and not a guess? tnx

  14. Don Hawkins said on September 27th, 2009 at 9:05am #

    But capitalism is not only inhuman and anti-democratic; it’s also unsustainable, and if we don’t come to terms with that one, not much else matters. Capitalism is an economic system based on the concept of unlimited growth, yet we live on a finite planet. Capitalism is, quite literally, crazy. Robert Jensen

    SYDNEY (Sept. 23) — Australia’s worst dust storm in 70 years blanketed the heavily populated east coast Wednesday in a cloud of red Outback grit, nearly closed the country’s largest airport and left millions of people coughing and sputtering in the streets.
    No one was hurt as a result of the pall that swept in overnight, bringing an eerie orange dawn to Sydney, but ambulance services reported a spike in emergency calls from people with breathing difficulties, and police warned drivers to take it easy on the roads.
    Dust clouds blowing east from Australia’s dry interior — parched even further by the worst drought on record — covered dozens of towns and cities in two states as strong winds snatched up tons of topsoil, threw it high into the sky and carried it hundreds of miles (kilometers).

    “It did feel like Armageddon because when I was in the kitchen looking out the skylight, there was this red glow coming through,” Sydney resident Karen told Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio.

    The Bilderberg Group, Bilderberg conference, or Bilderberg Club is an unofficial, annual, invitation-only conference of around 130 guests, most of whom are persons of great influence in the fields of politics, business, and banking.

    This group, club, gang will grow in number in the coming years as capitalism is not only inhuman and anti-democratic; it’s also unsustainable, and if we don’t come to terms with that one, not much else matters. It’s the not much else matters that this group, club and the club could change they will focus on. Let’s see what would be a good place on planet Earth to house and care for a few thousand people of wealth when the shit hit’s the fan? Greenland, Canada, Hawaii and my first choice would be another Planet far far away.

  15. Mulga Mumblebrain said on September 28th, 2009 at 12:43am #

    Yeah mebosa, it takes real guts to first blockade an imprisoned population of over a million, slowly strangle their society (a crime against humanity, of collective punishment, but, yes, I remember, goyish law does not apply to God’s Chosen Herrenvolk)kill them at your leisure with air-raids and artillery bombardment, then launch an all-out attack on them. An all-out onslaught using the latest weaponry, including fiendish weapons like DIME and white phosphorus (outlawed by the goy untermenschen, but see above for the exemption for those with more holy souls).A cowardly, unfair, brutal attack that killed one hundred Gazans for every Israeli, and hundreds of Gazan children, deliberately targeted as the attack was launched to coincide with the end of the Saturday school-day. What is with you Zionazis, mebosa, that you get off, so grotesquely, on killing children?
    This deadly carnage, like all Israel’s scores of massacres of virtually defenceless civilians since 1947 (Deir Yassin, Sabra, Shatilla, Qibya, Qana (twice) just the most infamous)clearly illustrate that Israel is a racist terrorist state, where killing civilians is seen, not as the wretched goyish ‘international community’ see it, as a war crime, but, as the ‘Yesha Council of Rabbis and Torah Sages’ proclaimed in 2006, as a ‘mitzvah’ or good deed.
    So mebosa, spare me your vile hypocrisy. When Palestinians kill innocent civilians, either out of a desire for vengeance or to let the Israelis know that their vastly greater murderousness will not go unanswered, it is a crime, and I condemn it, but with the reservation that the really guilty party is the vicious racist apartheid state whose decades of sadistic cruelty caused this outburst of rage. However, the vastly greater, crueller, more fiendish violence inflicted by the self-styled Chosen People on all their victims, is a crime orders of magnitude greater. Yet you and all the other Zionazis revel in this cruelty, and never cease to vilify and slander the victims, while praising the killers to the heavens. This evil is comparable in motivation and sadism, if not, yet, extent, with any crime of the Nazis, and you, dear golem, in my opinion, would have made a grand Nazi.

  16. deceschi said on September 28th, 2009 at 1:54am #

    “When Palestinians kill innocent civilians, either out of a desire for vengeance….”

    Non quite correct. Indocrination of kids on daily basis.

    http://www.palwatch.org/site/modules/videos/pal/videos.aspx?fld_id=&doc_id=1230&year=2009

  17. maien said on September 28th, 2009 at 5:27am #

    o.k. deceschi, I checked out the site.

    I know I am here to learn… because yes, I am naive and lacking knowledge. but for cripes sake, I am not stupid.

    may I assume that you are in league with the likes of the mebosa character and the rest of his ilk?

    Never including many of the facts, you and your associates.

  18. deceschi said on September 28th, 2009 at 8:03am #

    maien- well some balance by all anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic propaganda daily poured on these sites is healthy and necessary. Don’t you agree? And do the videos on the link not show reality, quite different from what you want to believe? (- Or rather as you may believe).

  19. b99 said on September 28th, 2009 at 8:15am #

    Mebosa – No lies!! So, so many Palestinian children have been shot on the way to school, playing in their yard, etc. Surely the sniper knows that the child is not carrying a bomb – they after all, are just kids being kids at home in their country – Palestine. It’s not Israel you know! But yes, you are right – they often DO shoot children in the face and head. Do you need to know their names?

  20. b99 said on September 28th, 2009 at 10:50am #

    Desi – No Jew-hating here!! I have no (ethnic) dog in this fight. Just the facts.

    1) As I mentioned on another thread – thanks for reading the Haycraft report. I’m long familiar with it, which is why we can both safely agree that, as it says, “The fundamental cause of the Jaffa riots and the subsequent acts of violence was a feeling among the Arabs of discontent with, and hostility to, the Jews, due to political and economic causes, and connected with Jewish immigration, and with their conception of Zionist policy as derived from Jewish exponents.” Pay special attention to that last sentence – it is precisely how I outlined Palestine’s Zionist problem.

    “Riot” is a term of that era. Today we’d call it ‘civil unrest’ or a ‘revolt.’ To be truthful (as always) there is a racist subtext to using the term riot – even then. So we can either call it the Arab Revolt or we can change events labeled as ‘uprising’ or ‘revolt’ to ‘riot’ – as in the Warsaw Ghetto Riot or the Bar Kochba Riot. Agreed?

    And let’s not forget how convenient it was for the Zionists to have a Zionist Jew at the helm of Britain’s Palestine policy.

    Also, as you outline, we can see that the Arab grievance against the occupation and colonization resulted in civil unrest throughout the Mandate period. We should note that Palestinians did not recognize the authority of their occupier – the Brits, nor their settler colony of Jews (the Yishuv). That so-called Mandate was administered without Palestinian consent (never mind consenting to the opinions of a Zionist Jew from Britain. Yet, Samuels could not help see the root cause – the arrival of the foreign Jews who came to displace them).

    2) Are you suggesting that Israel will disarm because it gets a durable peace with Palestine? No? Then why would Palestine – it is after all, under constant attack by Israel. So the least they can have is a military as do all nation-states (except maybe Costa Rica, but CR doesn’t have to worry about invasion from its neighbors.

    3) First you must recognize the international principle – the Right of Return. Having done that, Israel can then negotiate numbers and compensation. Actual numbers likely need got go beyond the original survivors or say, the family of the eldest son, etc. But those are details. Israeli accountants have long been busy arriving at minimal compensation figures – trying to downscale the payout. But hey, it’s not as if the US won’t pay if for them.

    Of course, there is still the matter of a state for Palestine. That’s conquered territory that Israel is 42 years late evacuating. So there are two BIG wrongs – ethnic cleansing and occupation. One is not contingent on the other. Still, you could roll it all in to one with a one-state solution.

    4) I was talking about modern-nation states. I had not figured on you reaching back into Hieroglyphic History – rather a reach, don’t you think? I think since we’ve had the Enlightenment and the Geneva Conventions – we can safely dismiss the mysterious undertakings of Nebuchaddnezzar or Ashurbanipal or whomever.

    5) Apparently you need a more modern history lesson. Stay tuned

    6) Couldn’t have been anti-Semitism. Jeez, Arabic is the most common – by far- Semitic language of all that language family.

    Let’s not forget that Islam is, at certain time periods, hostile to other religions – they were not just picking on Jews. The examples you give are often many centuries apart. There were also many long periods of relative peace and prosperity between Jew, Christian, and Muslim. Jews did very well by the Muslim Empire. By the same token, in Europe, Christianity has been hostile (to the point of pogroms and genocides) to Judaism for what, 1500 years or more? And a whole mythology of blood libel, drinking gentile-baby blood, and other ghoulish behaviors – took root. Not so in the Islamic lands. So it’s not anti-Semitism – that’s a European thing. Besides, I was talking about improving the lives of people overall – your parochial concern is merely the Jews.

    7) no, no, no Dizzy. Destroy Israel? No. The Jews have the right to stay – most were born there now, (or a large minority). They just should not expect that Palestinians will forever sit still as ‘unwelcome guests’ in their native country. For Israel to truly be a democracy, it has to be a state of its citizens – not the state of the Jews. I mean, did blacks in the American South not resist Jim Crow? Or blacks in South Africa not resist Apartheid? These movements, as is that of Palestinians, were morally correct. And they should be supported, not scorned. I think becoming a democracy is the only way Israel or its successor can enter (and survive) the 21st century. You can’t behave like you are still in Babylonia and expect to survive.

  21. Mulga Mumblebrain said on September 28th, 2009 at 12:25pm #

    For decrepsi and the other Judaic supremacists, the Palestinians, being an inferior race of untermenschen with souls (like all goyim) nearer that of animals than his Holy Herrenvolk, have but one choice when the Supreme Beings kill their children, steal their land, imprison them forever and sadistically humiliate them. As indeed with all non-Chosen Ones the only acceptable behaviour is gobsmacked admiration and enthusiastic arse-licking. Any other action, say criticism of the barbarity,no matter how slight, let alone resistance, is anti-Semitism, Holocaust denial and proof positive of a sinister plan to re-open Auschwitz, or some other hysterical, narcissistic, claim. Let’s face it decrepsi-the only posture acceptable, to Judaic supremacists like you, from any goy, let alone the ‘two-legged animals’ who have got in the Herrenvolk’s way as they ‘redeem’ their God-given lebensraum, is one of total prostration and subjection.

  22. deceschi said on September 28th, 2009 at 1:02pm #

    So let stay in present and tell me how can you expect from Israel to be confident towards the Palestinians, considering these statements by members of Fatah, not to mention those of Hamas:

    - Rafik Al-Natsheh, president of the Fatah Movement’s Disciplinary Court, head of the Palestinian Legislative Council (Parliament), on the Sixth Fatah Congress, and the rumors that the Congress will recognize Israel and renounce violence:
    “I ask of you to inform these fantasizers, or these agents, that no such thing will happen… The Congress will adopt the best resolutions for the Fatah movement and for the Palestinian people. The Fatah movement and the Palestinian people will not relinquish the resistance in all its forms, so long as the occupation continues… The Fatah movement will maintain, at the Congress, all options for the struggle, including resistance. And the Fatah movement will not recognize Israel, and will not ask anyone to recognize Israel, and all the nonsense uttered by all sorts of parties – that they have been asked to recognize Israel – are a complete lie… We do not demand of the factions to recognize Israel, because we in Fatah have not recognized it. But the government that represents the Palestinian people is obligated to honor the agreements, for without this we shall not be able to serve the Palestinian people.”(Source: Al-Quds, July 22, 2009)

    - Nabil Shaath, member of Fatah Central Committee and former PA Foreign Minister:
    “The return to the idea of a national unity government gives rise to the subject of the PLO commitments – recognition of Israel, recognition of the Oslo Accords, and the like… Fatah’s position is, we don’t want Hamas to recognize Israel. We want it [Hamas] to recognize a government that can deal with the international situation and open a door for us to end the siege.”
    (Source: Palestinian TV (Fatah), July 19, 2009 )

    -Azzam Al-Ahmed, Chairman of Fatah Party in the PA Legislative Council:
    “We have already said in public and in official statements that it is not correct that we demand that Hamas recognize Israel. Fatah does not recognize Israel. The Democratic [Front] does not recognize Israel… The one that recognizes Israel is the Palestinian government [PLO]. The Palestinian government which represents the Palestinian people, and not the Palestinian Authority government [of Abbas].” (Source: Palestinian TV (Fatah), Mar. 23, 2009)

    - Azzam Al-Ahmed, Chairman of Fatah Party in the PA Legislative Council:
    “We have already said in public and in official statements that it is not correct that we demand that Hamas recognize Israel. Fatah does not recognize Israel. The Democratic [Front] does not recognize Israel… The one that recognizes Israel is the Palestinian government [PLO]. The Palestinian government which represents the Palestinian people, and not the Palestinian Authority government [of Abbas].” (Source: Palestinian TV (Fatah), Mar. 23, 2009)

    he newest PA schoolbooks teach: “Palestine will be liberated by its men, its women, its young ones and its elderly.” [Arabic Language and the Science of Language, grade 12, p. 44]

    - Music video playing on PA TV (Fatah) from 2007 – 2009 promises the liberation of “Palestine”, specifying numerous Israeli cities:

    “We will liberate the Land of the religions … Palestine is Arab in history and identity… From Jerusalem and Acre, from Haifa and Jericho and Gaza and Ramallah, from Bethlehem and Jaffa, Beer Sheba and Ramle, and from Nablus to the Galilee, from Tiberias to Hebron.” (2007 – 2009)

    -Ibrahim Mudayris, Official, PA Ministry of Religious Trusts and Religious Affairs:
    “We might return to the 1967 borders by diplomacy, but we shall not return to the 1948 borders [i.e. eliminate Israel] by diplomacy. The 1948 borders- no one on earth recognizes as ours. Therefore we shall return to the 1967 borders, but we have not given up on [Israeli cities] Jerusalem and Haifa, Jaffa, Lod, Ramle and Tel Aviv. Never. Your father’s blood was shed here, at the villages, at Ashqelon, Ashdod, Hirbia [all in Israel] and hundreds of villages and towns that demand it from us. [Their blood] shall curse anyone who will concede a grain of earth of those villages. The land of Palestine will demand the Palestinians return as Muhammad returned- as a conqueror.”

    And so on and so forth.

    So B69, can you explain this to me? Your pets really want peace, yes?

    And perhaps you even pretend that we appreciate because you allow “the Jews the right to stay”.

    You must be a very funny guy.

  23. mary said on September 28th, 2009 at 1:40pm #

    This Hasbara stuff is so repetitive, and boring.

  24. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on September 28th, 2009 at 2:06pm #

    mary–is this more interesting—palestinian hypocrisy

    Israel has informed the Palestinian Authority that it will not authorize the operation of a second cellular phone network until the PA withdraws its demand that the International Criminal Court in the Hague investigate alleged Israeli “war crimes,” as documented in the Goldstone panel report on Operation Cast Lead.

    Israel is especially indignant over the PA threat, officials said, because it shows the hypocrisy of the PA leadership – and the hypocrisy, the Israeli officials said, could end up costing the PA $300 million in money it guaranteed in the cellphone network deal.

    Under an agreement in the framework of the Oslo Accords, Israel agreed to the operation of one cellular network in the PA, as Israel and the Authority were supposed to work together to ensure that all cellular networks operated on the appropriate frequency in a regulated manner, without networks invading the frequencies of others. The PA awarded the concession to PalTel, and PA Prime Minister Salam Fayyad has been pushing hard for the opening of a second network, which would be operated by a company called Wattaniyeh. Fayyad has backed the second company with a hefty investment guarantee for private investors, using PA funds.

    Under the deal with the PA, however, the Authority has until October 15 to authorize the Wattaniyeh project – and if it fails to do so, it will have to return some $300 million to investors who poured money into the company for infrastructure projects. The PA was supposed to authorize the project months ago, but infighting among PA ministers and its business elite has delayed the project.

    Part of the delay has also been due to Israel’s reluctance to release the frequencies Wattinyeh is seeking for the operation of the network. The frequencies are very close to frequencies used by the IDF for sensitive security work. PA officials have complained that Israel’s demands are excessive, and that Israel wants the new company to use some of Paltel’s frequencies for its operations.

    However, those Israeli reservations have now turned into full-blown opposition on the part of many IDF officials, in response to the plans by Fayyad and PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas to demand that the International Criminal Court at the Hague prosecute IDF soldiers. IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, among others, have fired off letters to the PA demanding that the Authority withdraw its request. Among the sanctions both have agreed to, the letters said, is the quashing of the Wattaniyeh project.

    Israeli officials have been especially indignant over the PA’s threat, security sources said, because it was the PA itself, headquartered in Ramallah, that encouraged Israel to attack Hamas in Gaza even more fiercely than the IDF had planned. An Israeli security source was quoted in Haaretz as saying that during Cast Lead, the PA encouraged the IDF to go further, to the extent that they pushed Israel to destroy Hamas altogether, and now they are joining in the international movement to support Hamas by prosecuting us for the results of Cast Lead – a prime example of hypocrisy.

    “The PA must decided whether it is with us or against us,” the official said.

  25. deceschi said on September 28th, 2009 at 2:17pm #

    mary copy&paste: so please bring us something that can convince us more than the usual trite anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish stuff brought by the Palestinians (see obove) and you zealous anti-Zionists, so that we can finally say ” There is something new under the sun of Palestine and around (in world)!!” We will respond in a positive and not boring and not repetitive way at all, I assure you. By then, I wish you still great fun with your favorite thinks.

  26. deceschi said on September 28th, 2009 at 2:21pm #

    errata corrige: – favorite things or thoughts. Good night ;-)

  27. B99 said on September 28th, 2009 at 3:35pm #

    Fatah accepts Israel behind pre-67 borders – and have done so for a long time. That has not stopped Israel from putting Jews on the West Bank and has not gained Fatah one acre of land for Palestine. So you can well understand why Palestinian leaders take umbrage – especially, as Israeli leaders and common citizens express absolute disdain for Palestinians as a people. And yes, of course, resistance to occupation must continue. Please remind Israeli parents that they should instruct their children to stay within Israel – rather than protect the settlement movement by shooting Arabs (just like the British did for them). You see, you’ve tried everything but that which is required – a return of Israel to Israel. Forget the Erez crap.

    So certainly, Palestine will be liberated by Palestinians as their textbook supposedly says. Who else – no one has helped them yet. And so what if some people want to reclaim all of Palestine, while Israelis are actually annexing all of Palestine.

    Peace? Who wants peace and of what kind? Israel wants the peace of the occupier until which day Palestinians disappear from history and geography. You are busy wiping Palestine off the map in a way never uttered by Ahmadinejad. For Israel, it’s not peace that’s important, it’s a bigger Israel. Why pretend otherwise, it’s a lie. So it’s my pets and your putz. For now, your putzes have the upper hand. But you cannot make a moral argument for it – only a power argument.

  28. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on September 28th, 2009 at 3:43pm #

    Fatah accepts Israel behind pre-67 borders – and have done so for a long time
    LYING AGAIN B99
    ask fatah–they say they will not accept israel,the jewish state
    if they say they don’t why do you lie -yet again-and say that Fatah accepts Israel behind pre-67 borders – and have done so for a long time–
    they don’t

    Azzam Al-Ahmed, Chairman of Fatah Party in the PA Legislative Council:
    “We have already said in public and in official statements that it is not correct that we demand that Hamas recognize Israel.Fatah does not recognize Israel. Fatah does not recognize Israel.Fatah does not recognize Israel. Fatah does not recognize Israel.Fatah does not recognize Israel. Fatah does not recognize Israel. Fatah does not recognize Israel.Fatah does not recognize Israel.Fatah does not recognize Israel. Fatah does not recognize Israel.Fatah does not recognize Israel. Fatah does not recognize Israel. Fatah does not recognize Israel. The Democratic [Front] does not recognize Israel… The one that recognizes Israel is the Palestinian government [PLO]. The Palestinian government which represents the Palestinian people, and not the Palestinian Authority government [of Abbas].” (Source: Palestinian TV (Fatah), Mar. 23, 2009)

  29. B99 said on September 28th, 2009 at 3:44pm #

    Mebosa – The only authority Israel has over Palestinian communications is the authority of illegal occupation – the authority of its war machine.

    You know the Goldstone Report’s only inaccuracy is its underreporting of IDF crimes in Gaza. I think The Hague is an excellent place for Israel’s massacre in Palestine to be judged. The Israelis have a poor track record there, which by all rights should continue. I can understand why they don’t want to be exposed again. Not that it would be reported in Israel’s amen corner – the mainstream US media.

    There’s no doubt that Fatah and Hamas are rivals, but to quote an Israeli source on Fatah’s desires in Gaza is less than worthless.

  30. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on September 28th, 2009 at 3:45pm #

    Ones the only acceptable behaviour is gobsmacked admiration and enthusiastic arse-licking

    mugla–your language is disgusting and a disgrace to islam,the religion of peace

  31. B99 said on September 28th, 2009 at 3:46pm #

    How the Jews won Palestine: The day after 181 passed, Ben-Gurion began implementing what was to become Plan Dalet, in the works for months, which plan was to kill as many Palestinian males as necessary to make the rest flee their country. It worked, the Jews summarily executed untold thousands of Palestinians and over 500 villages were emptied and bulldozed. But not just villages – Haifa, Jerusalem and other large towns were ethnically cleansed as well.

  32. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on September 28th, 2009 at 3:49pm #

    b99
    i believe fatah and hamas
    they tell the truth–they want israel destroyed
    why should anyone believe you and not fatah or hamas over whether they want israel to exist

  33. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on September 28th, 2009 at 3:51pm #

    b99–another fairy tale for you

    Once upon a time there were three little pigs and the time came for them to leave home and seek their fortunes.

    Before they left, their mother told them ” Whatever you do , do it the best that you can because that’s the way to get along in the world.

    The first little pig built his house out of straw because it was the easiest thing to do.

    The second little pig built his house out of sticks. This was a little bit stronger than a straw house.

    The third little pig built his house out of bricks.

    One night the big bad wolf, who dearly loved to eat fat little piggies, came along and saw the first little pig in his house of straw. He said “Let me in, Let me in, little pig or I’ll huff and I’ll puff and I’ll blow your house in!”

    “Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin”, said the little pig.

    But of course the wolf did blow the house in and ate the first little pig.

    The wolf then came to the house of sticks.

    “Let me in ,Let me in little pig or I’ll huff and I’ll puff and I’ll blow your house in” “Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin”, said the little pig. But the wolf blew that house in too, and ate the second little pig.

    The wolf then came to the house of bricks.

    ” Let me in , let me in” cried the wolf

    “Or I’ll huff and I’ll puff till I blow your house in”

    “Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin” said the pigs.

    Well, the wolf huffed and puffed but he could not blow down that brick house.

    But the wolf was a sly old wolf and he climbed up on the roof to look for a way into the brick house.

    The little pig saw the wolf climb up on the roof and lit a roaring fire in the fireplace and placed on it a large kettle of water.

    When the wolf finally found the hole in the chimney he crawled down and KERSPLASH right into that kettle of water and that was the end of his troubles with the big bad wolf.

    The next day the little pig invited his mother over . She said “You see it is just as I told you. The way to get along in the world is to do things as well as you can.” Fortunately for that little pig, he learned that lesson. And he just lived happily ever after!

  34. B99 said on September 28th, 2009 at 3:59pm #

    Mebosa – We just finished discussing this – (which see). Fatah has accepted Israel for decades and got nothing in return except more Jews on their land, more construction, and the lying-ass ways of every single Prime Minister from Ben Gurion to Netanyahu. So sometimes Fatah expresses its frustration. And who can blame them – you can’t take their land daily and pretend you want peace. There in lies the rub.

    However, I would say that if Israel does not come to terms with its crimes against humanity – and take definitive action to correct them – as per the world’s decision via the UN, then Israel will have forever lost its chance for peace. And then whatever comes down the pike for Israel is not worth a shrug. We told you so.

    It’s not as if the Jews have been able to hold a state in the past. For all their talents at organizing, they can’t seem to manage territory without so much rancor that somebody squashes them. Even a gift such as Palestine, they cannot just accept and make peace. Even a gift so SMALL as Palestine seems beyond their management without gobs of money from the gentile states. What is Kazakhstan, 200 hundred times its size? Even Portugal is bigger, even Uganda. Can you not just try getting along with what you’ve been granted? Maybe then you’ll make it to the 22nd century intact.

  35. B99 said on September 28th, 2009 at 4:05pm #

    Mebosa – It’s not a question of whether you believe me. The world believes in Palestine. They vote on it every year – and have done so since you guys invaded in 1967. The reality is no one believes Israel – the proof is in the pudding (the annexation of Palestine daily by construction and transfer of Jews to the West Bank.) So every one knows you are lying. It’s only you guys who pretend otherwise. You guys are a a hologram of humanity.

  36. B99 said on September 28th, 2009 at 4:07pm #

    How the Jews won Palestine: Ben Gurion’s ’48 plans to seize south Lebanon were based on the fact that Lebanon had no offensive plans. 13 villages were captured. On 10/31/48, Jewish terror forces executed 80 villagers in Hula and butchered 100 in Saliha. Remaining women had to cook meals for their butchers. With the repeat invasions of ’78 and ’82 the Israelis merely tortured their prisoners at Khiyam prison.

  37. deceschi said on September 29th, 2009 at 2:51am #

    All those Fatah leaders are – according to B99 – quite ambiguous persons. Towards the international community they seem to recognize Israel – but to their people they don’t recognize Israel. So what should we believe, B99: the first or the second version of their double talks? As expert of the arab forma mentis you should know, so explain the contradiction. But please don’t tell me they are simply angry. This is not convincing.
    As for the settlements in West Bank: the UN-resolution 242 requests the:

    (i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

    (ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.”

    Both principles belong together and must be implemented together (this means concomitantly, reciprocally, interdependently): THE WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAEL FROM TERRITORIES (not all territories as you like to misinterpret) AND RESPECT OF THE SOVEREIGNITY, TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY AND POLITICAL INDIPENDENCE OF EVERY STATE – Israel included (Palestinian haven’t a state yet and never had before). That implies the full recognition of Israel by the Palestinians, and the termination of their hostility. Period. No end of the hostility, no end of the settlements, no Palestinian state. Is it so difficult to understand? The proof is in the pudding ( non-recognition of Israel, daily hateful propaganda and education of the youth, the never ending armed (terror) struggle, the ties with Iran – not really a friend of Israel).

    By the way: you have some record how the Jordanians got rid of the Palestinian guerilla in 1970?

  38. bozh said on September 29th, 2009 at 7:36am #

    The official version of res. 242 is in french language and the word “the” does appear in th eoffcial version. It means that isr had to withdraw from all of the occupied territories.

    However, one may conclude firmly that israel did not aggress against some arab lands and remnats of palestine in order to withdraw once it obtained WB, gaza, and golan.
    In any case, israel had not wthdrawn from even one sq m of occupied lands; instead, it stole more of pal’n land.

    It can be noted that isr cld have waged ’67 war and retained to this day all of the palestine only on demand/request of the US and many euro lands.
    And there is no int’l law but of the christian lands! tnx

  39. b99 said on September 29th, 2009 at 11:09am #

    Palestinian leaders are, like all political leaders, capable of several messages, and different leaders have their own views. What counts is that Fatah has agreed since 1988 on the two-state solution and just as importantly, it is what the world demands. Besides, one only has to look at the Zionist campaign for ‘a homeland in Palestine,’ a euphemism for ‘Judenstaat.’ There’s your mother of all lies. And the Jews continue to lie to this very day – the exception being the Lieberman types, who are as honest as Hitler was on the disposal of the Jews.

    I cannot believe you are attempting to entertain us with the ‘the’ problem of 242. That’s the height of juvenilia (unconscious pun). Tell me, what part of the territories was NOT occupied that you can use as justification to keep troops there? Really, where? It is ALL ‘territories occupied.’

    The second part of 242 is easily fulfillable. Just take your troops and squatters from ALL of territories occupied (that means ALL, as 242 says) and go home to the country the world gifted you with. It was Israel that began the ’67 war with an invasion of its neighbors, so it was Israel that threatens sovereignty and borders. Fatah accepts 242 – the problem is that Israel does not accept 242.

    Don’t try to pull a fast one with Palestine not being a state – it was an integral part of Jordan then – which was every bit the state as was Israel. And let’s remind ourselves that there was never a state of Israel until 1948 – created out of whole cloth. The hill-top chieftainship of the apocryphal David was no state.

    Is that difficult to understand? Denigration of Palestinians (as you have done yourself) must stop, so too must the raising of Jewish children to be snipers of Palestinian children. As for the proof of the pudding – that’s the settlements – that is your ‘facts on the ground.’ And there is no denying what the illegal removal of Palestinians from Palestine and their replacement with Jews means regarding the Geneva Conventions. Get with the program . IT’S THE LAW.

  40. B99 said on September 29th, 2009 at 2:02pm #

    These are the men who carried out Plan Dalet – the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in ’48. David Ben Gurion, Yigael Yadin, Moshe Dayan, Yigal Allon, Yitzhak Sadeh, Moshe Kalman, Moshe Carmel, Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Avidan, Rehavam Zeevi, Yitzhak Pundak, and Issar Harel. In a just world these murderers would have been hauled in front of an international court like Milosevic, then sentenced and executed like Saddam Hussein. Israel must acknowledge this crime against humanity.

  41. B99 said on September 29th, 2009 at 2:04pm #

    How the Jews stole Palestine. The day after Gen Assembly resolution 181 in 11/47 the Jews started an ethnic cleansing campaign whereby they bombed, grenaded, shelled, machine-gunned, torched, raped and looted across the hundreds of Palestinian villages and cities. Often they gave the Palestinians some such message as ‘commit suicide, flee, or you will die.”

  42. deceschi said on September 29th, 2009 at 3:13pm #

    bozh: “The official version of res. 242 is in french language and the word “the” does appear in th eoffcial version.”

    Not true: the english version came first, and was then translated into french.

    Lord Caradon (Hugh M. Foot) was the permanent representative of the United Kingdom to the United Nations, 1964-1970, and chief drafter of Resolution 242:

    “Much play has been made of the fact that we didn’t say “the” territories or “all the” territories. But that was deliberate. I myself knew very well the 1967 boundaries and if we had put in the “the” or “all the” that could only have meant that we wished to see the 1967 boundaries perpetuated in the form of a permanent frontier. This I was certainly not prepared to recommend.”

    “We didn’t say there should be a withdrawal to the ’67 line; we did not put the “the” in, we did not say “all the territories” deliberately. We all knew that the boundaries of ’67 were not drawn as permanent frontiers, they were a cease-fire line of a couple of decades earlier… . We did not say that the ’67 boundaries must be forever. ”

    Eugene Rostow, a legal scholar and former dean of Yale Law School, was US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, 1966-1969. He helped draft Resolution 242:

    “The resolution required agreement on “secure and recognized” boundaries, which, as practical matter, and as matter of interpreting resolution, had to precede withdrawals. Two principles are basic to Article I of resolution. I did not see how anyone could seriously argue, in light of history of resolution in Security Council, withdrawal to borders of June 4th was contemplated. These words had been pressed on Council by Indians and others, and had not been accepted. ”

    But of course …. anyone speaking for a balanced solution of the conflict is for you a “Zionist”. What a cheep word in your mouth.

    Bohz: “In any case, israel had not wthdrawn from even one sq m of occupied lands; instead, it stole more of pal’n land.”

    Why should Israel? Did the Palestinians ever stop their terrorism, with financial and military support from the Arab/Muslim countries?

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/terror1952_1989.html

    B99: “And the Jews continue to lie to this very day – the exception being the Lieberman types …”

    Lieberman: “I’m ready to quit my settlement for peace”. Did you expect this statement from a right-wing Israeli politician. I never heard something like that from a Palestinian politician (such as “I’m ready to quit my armed fight for peace”).

    B99: “Tell me, what part of the territories was NOT occupied that you can use as justification to keep troops there?”

    You missed the point, there is occupation because there is no peace. Occupation will end when a permanent peace will be reached. The withdrawal will happen through peace talks and on the basis of mutual accepted and signed peace accords. Because without a durable peace there can not be “secure and recognized” boundaries, therefore – logically – occupation will remain as long as the conflict remains – as long as Palestinians don’t really want to make peace with Israel.

    “The second part of 242 is easily fulfillable. Just take your troops and squatters from ALL of territories occupied (that means ALL, as 242 says) and go home to the country the world gifted you with.”

    So that a new Hamastan can be build close to Israel, 20 Kilometer from Tel Aviv? Are you only naive – or maybe only malicious?

    B99: “As for the proof of the pudding – that’s the settlements – that is your ‘facts on the ground.”

    ‘Facts on the ground’ are also Hamastan in Gaza with Iranian financial and military support, ‘facts’ are also the other Iranian proxy Hezbollah that rules Lebanon with its militias and 40 thousand rockets against Israel. And ‘facts’ – from our point of view – are also the double talk of several Fatah leaders and members. (google it if you are curious.)

    “IT’S THE LAW”: are thousand of rockets, hundreds of bomber martyrs and hateful propaganda the LAW too?

  43. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on September 29th, 2009 at 5:30pm #

    deceschi,
    martin gilbert in his book Israel, a history on p.399 says the french version was official and the word “the” had been included on insistence of france.

    It had been israel, says he, which deliberately had ommited the word “the”.
    Of course christo-talmudic soyuz was cagy enough to demand that israel be recognized and that arab lands guarantee israel’s apsolute security in order for isr to withdraw its troops from newly-acquired territories.

    Subsequent events had proven that isr went to that war so that it cld obtain all of palestine, knowing that a territory won by war can be won back only by war.
    And to boot, ROR was not honored.Once again, expellees can return only if israel wld be defeated and ‘jews’ driven back to europe.

    Resolutions like all other promises are worthless when the other side is much weaker econ0-diplo-militarily.
    I am not saying anything arabs and pal’ns don’t know.
    Only a war can stop israel! tnx

  44. B99 said on September 29th, 2009 at 6:09pm #

    So Dizzy – identify which part, section, neighborhood, community, town, village, whatever, in the West Bank is not ‘territories occupied.’ You can’t do it. It’s all occupied.

    And if the ceasefire lines are not borders for Israel- then neither are they borders for Palestine. You have just justified a Palestinian position of absorbing some or all of Israel.

    I missed no point. YOUR point is not in 242. There is occupation because Israel wants to be bigger. That’s why they invaded in the first place – not because of Arab terrorism. It was the Israeli act of aggression that was terrorism. Israel, in fact, was so determined to invade and occupy the West Bank, that it attacked Jordan in 1966. The occupation

    Lieberman is ready to dump Israel’s Palestinian citizens and says so. We know what kind of peace he wants – one free of non-Jews. But that’s what makes him an honest man – as honest as Hitler. But you can’t come on here and lie by saying that borders will be drawn when the Palestinians want peace – while taking their land day by day. That’s sick – that’s sociopathic. That makes you a liar extraordinaire.

    So you get a Hamastan. You are lying and laying in a bed of your own creation. You failed to come in peace in 1917, you failed to make peace in 1948, you failed again in 1967 – and now you complain about Hamas. What did you expect the Palestinians to do – move into ghettoes in the Pale? Doesn’t change a thing. The onus is still on you – because the trouble starts with the Jewish invasion of Palestine – not the Palestinian invasion of the stetl. You owe bigtime. They owe you nothing.

    The Palestinians and Lebanese are entitled to allies – insubstantial though they were for the Palestinians, and as effective as they were for the Lebanese. You guys are on US welfare – the least the Pals can get is some guns from Iran. They are apparently the only Muslims with balls these days. Besides, Hazballa and Hamas occupy no Israeli land – it is Israel and ONLY Israel that EVER occupies another’s land. On the other hand, if you don’t believe that pre-67 lines represent borders – then why should anyone else?

    There is no violent response to the occupation. Weight of numbers. Count the deaths, count the maimed, and by all means let’s find a comparison of throw weight delivered upon each other. And remember, the world knows the Jews are bullshitting. It ain’t about rockets. It’s about a bigger Israel. Hateful propaganda? That’s pussy talk. There’s no hatred like Jew hatred for Arabs (and other gentiles a close second). You only have to be in Jerusalem about 2 hours to find that out.

    I can see why you have a poor sense of regional history – you are a googler, not a student of the history books.

  45. B99 said on September 29th, 2009 at 6:12pm #

    How the Jews won Palestine:
    Haifa, Palestine – 12/47. The day after UN RES 181 (11/47), the 75,000 Pals of Haifa underwent a joint Hagana/Etzel terror campaign. The Palestinians were shelled from the hills. Jews rolled barrels full of explosives down the streets. They poured fuel down & ignited it – when alarmed Palestinians ran out of their homes they were machine-gunned by Jews. Further, Hagana brought cars to Arab repair shops – filled with explosives. These attacks were led by DANI AGMON of the Zionist unit HASHAHAR (‘Dawn’).

  46. Mulga Mumblebrain said on September 30th, 2009 at 3:41am #

    B99, the Jewish terrorism in Haifa you describe is not real ‘terrorism’, as the victims are an inferior type of creation, with souls closer to that of animals than the Holy Herrenvolk. That is the secret of understanding the decrepsis of this world. They really believe that every child murder, every old man humiliated, every newborn child dying at a checkpoint, every inch of stolen land, is sanctified because these acts, that the rest of humanity (bar the racists who flock to Israel’s cause)condemn, were committed by superhuman beings, themselves, against ‘drugged cockroaches’, ‘human dust’, ‘lice’, ‘two-legged animals’-name your favourite Zionist term of extreme racist abuse. Without understanding that Judaic racism is perhaps the most extreme form of racialist supremacism, and that, allied with typical European settler antipathy to the indigenous whose land is being stolen, and the understandable rage at and hatred for the goyim that flowed fromthe Nazi Judeocide, produces a witches’ brew of cruelty, sadism and the absolute refusal to ever negotiate in good faith. I mean, does the rest of humanity ‘negotiate’ with cockroaches? Silly question.

  47. b99 said on September 30th, 2009 at 5:48am #

    Mulga- It seems that by now, Mebosa and Dizzy have clearly shot their wads, and it’s been all blanks. Mebosa merely rants. Dizzy’s position is that Palestinians must change their behavior. So basically, we have a scale with Palestinian behavior on one side, law and history on the other. You’d think these guys would stop with their shenanigans.

    But they have an ace in the hole. Jewish kids are raised on hate and raised to kill. Good enough!

  48. deceschi said on September 30th, 2009 at 9:01am #

    Aha, your sense of history is very subjective, I see. I studied history at university and I know from my own experience how subjectively and differently history – historical events and hostoric developments – can be interpreted by the historians themselves. People like you and your fellows, who are absolutely convinced to possess the one and sole truth of history and present, are not only deluded fools – they are dangerous bigots unable to listen to others and precluded to the art of compromise (and peace). Even Ahmadinejad claims to say the truth when he denies the Shoah – in fact he and his ilk commits the most primitive historical distortion in the service of its own political agenda … It’s dizzy … – yes, because you evidently are not used to think outside of your broth.
    The 67-war – as the whole Middle East conflict – is complicated, also in the use of the correct terminology. This means, there is no really correct terminology, since every side has its interpretation of the truth. So you have your, and I have mine. For instance: Is a deadly attack on Israeli soil in which three soldiers are killed and other three are taken hostage by a terror group (or a legitimate political force?) active in the neighboring territory a declaration of war or not? Are deliberate and continuous terror attacks against the civilian population and a not renewed truce a declaration of war or not? Were your idols Hez & Hams aware of the risk they were taking by attacking and provoking Israel or were they deliberately playing with fire in the purpose to trigger a harsh armed reaction by Israel? Or was it simply – in your anti-Zionist terminology – a disproportionate use of military might by Israel, a unjust war on the people of Gaza? The historical fact is a matter of interpretation.
    From a Israeli point of view (I repete: from a Israeli point of view), Israel had always and still has to deal with several foes and on several fronts at the same time. These forces are dying to inflict a (deadly?) defeat on their arch-enemy and overcome each other to provoke and hurt with surprise and repeated (no: continuous) terror attacks. This pattern can be seen in almost every traditional and terroristic war fought against Israel. As a matter of fact, terror attacks preceded often wider wars
    (exception that proves the rule: the Yom Kippur, your yellow Arab countrymen were in that particular case so kind to attack massively in the middle of the holiest Jewish festivity – but they lost once again). I believe that the Jewish state always reacted and defended itself, in a pre-emtive and offensive way, no question, but as reaction and in self-defence, as probably every nation would do in that permanent situation of threat, feeded by intollerance and hatred of irreducible bloodthirsty enemies. No one likes the pictures from Gaza, no real Israeli and Jew like such terrible things to happen. (I can only pray for the Palestinians of Gaza that they will soon get rid of those thugs who keep them hostage of hostile islamist ideology and policies of hatred and war, abusing them as human shields). But at the same time, nobody can accept (sic!) a daily threat like those rockets (yes, your “bomblets”, each one heavy 30 to 90 Kg carrying 10Kg explosives payload) coming eight long years from the sky.
    As for the six-day-war, I hope (by all your historic books) that you know what triggered the war, that means what happened before. If not, you can google it.

    Remember: you never finish to lern. (If you are not totally uBside6 down9).

    And for now, it’s enough. I’m moving house …

  49. bozhidar balkas vancouver said on September 30th, 2009 at 11:31am #

    History appears a mystory only if it solely includes enumeration of battles won or lost; winning and losing generals, kings, dukes, emperors, princes; what they wore; how dumb or smart they were or what they ate; had temper, courage, etc.

    However, apodictically, /of a necessary truth principle/ all wars appear caused. And there are numerous causative factors for all wars, save the trojan war. Which may have not even happened or happened but caused by other factors and not to free helen.

    Nowhere, as far as i know, are the causes for wars studied. We know some. Or some of us know some, others we can postulate.
    All wars are waged for land; its people may be wanted or not wanted. So, greed, appears always as a cause for warfare.
    The postulated causes appear fear; lust to get even because of anger, shame. Then there is always cults, supremacism, etc.
    Shame of defeat often is cause of shamed people to wage war against shamers.
    Avoidance to talk ab. causes of warfare and using solely rationalizations to wage a war is a strong factor in getting people to approve it.
    Locus classicus for such behavior is US. It had waged ab. 180 wars thus far. And with each war it grew larger and stronger. With nato, it controls at least 70% of globe and, of course, its resources.

    And nato wants all of the planet. One or two bn people dead and 50-100 wars more, and the world plutos wld have done it.
    History presented in this way or even in a better way wld not appear as mystory.
    The mystory is imposed on us only in order for a hobo, houseperson, faller, fisher, farmer not to espy the obvious.
    For if they did, it wld be extremely difficult to wage even one war let alone 180.
    But then, who knows, maybe `lower` classes may be seeing reality.
    A caveat. It is the US ruling class which is getting richer and stronger now but not necessarily `lower` classes. tnx

  50. Mulga Mumblebrain said on September 30th, 2009 at 2:33pm #

    decrepsi practises the Zionazi religion of selective outrage. State terrorism by the Judaic Herrenvolk, like the continuous and tightening siege of Gaza, instituted as soon as the Zionazi colonists infesting that part of the Occupied Territories were withdrawn, amidst the usual narcissistic wailing and moaning, is ignored. The almost daily bombing, that killed hundreds of Gazans is ignored. These are, after all, mere ‘two-legged animals’, like the rest of us, for Judeofascist supremacists. The nightly supersonic overflights, that serve no purpose but to terrorise the imprisoned population, the children in particular, interest decrepsi not one jot, indeed I’d bet he loves it. You see, when, as all European colonists do, you despise your indigenous victims as sub-humans, then there is no end to the sadism, accompanied by self-justification. decrepsi and the other Zionazis reminds me of the Afrikaaner brutes who were imported to this country for years, by their fellow racists here, to belligerently assert that the black South Africans were primitive savages and we White People had to get together to keep them in their place, and that any who dared question Afrikaaner apartheid were ‘Communists’. You can see why South Africa and Israel were such close friends and colleagues. You’d have made a great Afrikaaner, decrepsi.
    The war in Lebanon in 2006, where Israel got its arse kicked, man-to-man, by Hezbollah’s second-string fighters, was an Israeli aggression, as the whole world knows. At the time, when the Herrenvolk imagined, with their usual stupefying racial supremacism, that they would avenge their defeat in 2000, the Israeli papers openly proclaimed it ‘the best prepared war in Israel’s history’. Stories abounded of Israeli Power Point presentations at the Pentagon, and Bushite admonitions to attack Syria as well. And certainly Israel did what it does best, killing civilians, destroying infrastructure, hospitals, schools, mosques and even stores, from 30,000 feet. The hundreds of thousands of anti-personnel bomblets scattered on South Lebanon after their defeat was a typically cowardly and brutish touch.
    Unfortunately, years of training by the Israeli ubermenschen in humiliating old people at roadblocks, killing sleeping fighters in death-squad raids or calling in bombers to obliterate apartment blocks, was ineffective against well-armed and trained men, and the delusions of absolute racial supremacism got them nowhere.
    And Gaza was an absolute, gutless, massacre. It came after Hamas had observed a six month truce, which the Herrenvolk, treacherous as ever when dealing with ‘two-legged animals’, had not, then broke by killing six Gazans on November 4. This brought retaliatory Hamas action, the excuse the Herrenvolk needed for a massacre. And didn’t they enjoy it! The whole world saw the Israelis sitting on their deck-chairs, cheering on the heroes in their F-16s as they rained white phosphorus on children. Do you ever wonder why, in the General Assembly, every year, the votes against your foul terror-state are 140 or 150 to three or four, with the gutless, bought and paid Europeans abstaining? It’s because the people of the world, particularly the ex-colonial states, knowing as they do the depths of brutality and depravity that European colonists are capable of, despise your aggressive, racist, terror state.

  51. mary said on September 30th, 2009 at 3:15pm #

    Mulga well said. He says he is ‘moving house’. Does that mean we have seen the back of him here? If so, good riddance to him and the others who sit on their backsides in comfort writing their filth and their mumbo jumbo whilst the suffering in Palestine goes on. He says he studied ‘history’ in which case he should know that history repeats itself and that the entity’s walls will come tumbling down sooner or later and their killing and torture will cease. The total evil which the regime he supports has enacted on a captive people is beyond words.

  52. Mulga Mumblebrain said on September 30th, 2009 at 8:31pm #

    mary, I am prepared to tolerate, accept and welcome any Jew who behaves like a decent human being. I am prepared to overlook the obscene stupidity of their cult of ‘Chosenness’ despite its implicit, and in the words of many Judaic fundamentalists, explicit, insult to me, my family, my friends and all the goyim. This attitude is identical with my approach to Islam, Christianity and every other religious superstition. Whilesoever any religious adherent practises his or her mambo-jambo without harming others, it’s none of my business. But religious fundamentalist bigots, like the Wahhabists, Christian Dominionists, Hindutva extremists and Judaic supremacists I fear and despise. I do not wish to see a single hair on the head of any Jew damaged, to any degree, and likewise with every other group on earth that recognises the rights of others and acknowledges our common humanity.
    Needless to say the Zionazis act in the manner I despise, treating the imprisoned Palestinians with utter savagery, and appealing to religious dogma and mythology to justify doing so. That is why I despise Israel as it currently exists, the Zionazis and their goy stooges. Anti-Semitism does not and can not come into it, because hating any group and the individuals in it simply because of their membership of that group, is moronic and despicable. It is, of course, the attitude of the Zionazis towards Arabs, Palestinians and Moslems, but their hypocrisy is expected, and they never fail to deliver. So when the bullying vilifiers, intimidators and hypocrites shriek ‘anti-Semite’ I am left unaffected. No decent, humane Jew who values humanity above tribe, and who sees us all as brothers and sisters, despite tribal differences too inconsequential to get exercised over, will ever want for my respect, friendship and assistance if in need.

  53. deceschi said on October 1st, 2009 at 8:22am #

    Mugla: “I am prepared to tolerate, accept and welcome any Jew who behaves like a decent human being. This attitude is identical with my approach to Islam, Christianity and every other religious superstition.”

    If you are so intollerant against “religious fundamentalist bigots like the Wahhabists, Christian Dominionists, Hindutva extremists and Judaic supremacists” and “this attitude is identical with my approach to Islam, Christianity and every other religious superstition”, then it is at least surprising that in your foaming vulgar hate tirades you waste words only against Israel and the Jews, while you blithely overlook the daily terrible crimes of Moslem extremists against others (Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hinduists, and even against their own brethren). Is this not the height of blind hypocrisy …

  54. balkas b b said on October 1st, 2009 at 10:15am #

    deseschi, with respect
    One cannot deem self muslim or christian and at the same time deem self human.
    Nobody can be at the same instant a ‘jew’, muslim, or christian and a human. This wld be a neurological impossibility. Nobody can have two different ideas let alone ideologies in one point of time.
    A person who deems self a muslim had skipped at least 10 tiers of reality.
    First of all such a person skips his/her humaness; disregards the fact that she’s a wife; then a mother, friend, interdepndent, a social being and only then a pious person.
    And i may add, pious but sans any dogmas or a priori knoweledge.
    If one reverses such a natural way of evaluation, that person is a serf or slave to dogmas of dead people; most of which appear very antihuman.

    It is so easy for a christian to kill a muslim. But so difficult or even nigh impossible for a mother of any cult to slay a mother of any other cult.
    It is so easy for a policeman to maim/kill/mistreat a black [criminal or not] or a criminal.
    It is so easy to torture abducted ‘terrorists’ in gitmo or secret prisons. All one needs to ‘know’ {or has been told} is that the torturer is defending her country and that tortured person is some kind of animal and not human.

    On the human level, when one needs a person such as dentist or doctor, one does not ask these people if they are christian, muslim, or mosheist; one only wants to know how helpfool or expert they are.

    To me, a christian, a muslim, and a talmudnik is an enemy of a human. They not only kill one another but also noncultists. And not just kill/maim but also oppress, expell from homes, imprison, torture, enserf other cultitsts if the CAN.
    Oh how easy, joyful, satisfying is it to kill, oppress, expel pal’ns.
    However, change is only certainty. tnx

  55. b99 said on October 1st, 2009 at 10:45am #

    Is deci trying to say that Israel did not attack Egypt and Syria in the pre-dawn hours of June 5th? He certainly should not be saying that. That IS how the war began – with an attack by Israel on these two countries. If he is saying that, then we can surely debate alleged provocative behavior on the part of the Czechs and Poles that kicked off WWII.

    With regard to terror groups – that would be the three Israeli soldiers. After all, it is Israel that penetrated Lebanon (even beyond Israeli-occupied Lebanon) virtually daily for decades. It is Israel that conducted ongoing terror attacks on Palestinians attempting to return to their homes and land for so many years after they were evicted by the very same Israel in ’48. Israel cried to the world about Arab infiltrators – hiding the fact that these were evicted families.

    Hamas and Hazballa are fighting for freeedom – Israel is killing them so it can be bigger. So you say that Israel is fighting for what…peace? You were granted 56% of Palestine – you genocided your way to 78%, and now have taken all that remains and settle your people on it – so just who is the terrorist?

    What Israeli point of view? That of Avi Shlaim? Ilan Pappe? Tom Segev? Or a dozen of other Israeli historians?, How about Meron Benveniste? Fuck it, how about Benny Morris – who agrees with you on the right of Jews to take Arab land even as he describes Jewish atrocities? So what Israeli view do you represent? That of the Jerusalem Post – an opinion at odds with the world?

    You’ve had no foe to speak of other than unarmed hands of Palestinian fellahin and town-dwellers. Don’t try to pretend it was you against the Arab world. If you had come in peace, or if you had come to terms with what you were doing and made amends, you would have had no enemies. Tell me, did you attack Egypt in ’56 or did Egypt attack you? And by attacking Egypt again in ’67 why should anyone believe it was some other case than a continuation of ’56? And by occupying the rest of Palestine in ’67 why should anyone beleive it was not the culmination of your ’48 efforts? Every war by Israel was preceded by terror attacks by Israel – including ’67.

    Screw the Jewish festivity. How does religious mumbo-jumbo measure up against occupation and genocide? If you HAD a god he would have prevented it. Israel was not attacked, Israeli occupation positions in Egypt and Syria were attacked – Occupation positions held by Israeli soldiers pretending to be holier than thou while holding land that does not belong to them. You want to do something good? Stop pretending your prayers have an audience, and get off your butt and petition your government to get out of the WB now. And petition your government to stop using the ‘Neighbor Policy’ – that is, using Palestinians (and Lebanese) as human shields, to stop using cluster bombs and phosphorus as weaponry, to stop collective punishment, city shutdowns, roadblocks, checkpoints, random sweeps of males, and a host of other barbarisms. You want to pray? Put it in writing and march down to the Russian Compound in Jerusalem.

    But remember – you took their land, you are in the process of taking the rest WHILE punishing them with more tonnage of bombs than has ever been dropped in all but the largest of wars. And you do it to an unarmed people who are kept in virtual compounds. You cannot be trusted.

    .

  56. MEBOSA RITCHIE said on October 1st, 2009 at 11:19am #

    b99,do i get the impression you don’t like israel

  57. deceschi said on October 1st, 2009 at 12:20pm #

    So b99, explain me please why the lovely Nasser asked on May 14, 1967 gently the UNEF-forces to leave the Sinai the quickly as possible and began the re-militarization of the Sinai, concentrated tanks and troops on the border with Israel? And why b99, on May 16, 1967, a Radio Cairo broadcast stated: “The existence of Israel has continued too long. We welcome the Israeli aggression. We welcome the battle we have long awaited. The peak hour has come. The battle has come in which we shall destroy Israel”? Und why, b99, on the 22nd, the Egyptians closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping? And why, On the 25th, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia moved their troops to Israel’s borders? And why two days later, on the 26th of May, President Nasser of Egypt declared, “Our basic goal is the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight…. The mining of Sharm El Sheik is a confrontation with Israel”. And finally why, b99, modelled after the November 1966 Egyptian-Syrian “defence” pact, other pacts were signed by Egypt with Jordan and Iraq on May 30th and June 4th, thereby completing the encirclement of Israel?

    Oh, now I understand, Arabs loved so much play the play-station-war games.

  58. Annie Ladysmith said on October 1st, 2009 at 2:43pm #

    BACK AND FORTH WITH THE SAME OLD OPINIONS AND HATE.This is what the New World Order lives on. It is their food, chaos and hate, war and murder. Any lie, any deception, to bring us all into their churning wizard’s brew of eternal death. If we keep killing each other it makes their agenda so much easier.

    Listen, we are all guilty, there is not a nation or group on earth that is free of blood-guilt. Torture, murder, genecide, these did not pop up one uwful night in modern times, IT IS OUR COLLECTIVE WILL THAT HAS SUSTAINED THE NIGHTMARE.

    You Godless people; do you think evolving humanity is the answer?
    Do you honestly think that is going to work, because in case you didn’t notice, it hasn’t worked in the 8000 years of known history.
    The ROOT CAUSE is that we don’t get along, we have a propensity to quarrel, fight, and kill each other. History backs it up.

    Nothing will work to stop the bloodshed until the root cause in every heart is resolved to go a better way.

    DULCE ET DECORUM.

  59. B99 said on October 1st, 2009 at 3:34pm #

    Desi – you fall back on tired canards.

    You’ll first have to explain why Israel permitted NO UN forces on its side of the border – and why Nasser would be expected to keep forces on his side while Israel does not (Sort of like why Iran’s nuke facilities must be inspected, and Israel’s are off limits – philo-semitism at work). And of course, Israel was busily preparing for war – plenty of tanks, plenty of jet-fighters, plenty of troops – what, are you kidding – you think Israel won the war without militarizing itself? Everybody knew this. Israel even practiced for war by attacking Jordan in November 1966. And after all, it was a scant 11 years since Israel last attacked Egypt. Nasser knew the Jews wanted him out and dead because he was a pan-Arabist.

    Author Stephen Green: “The third major Middle East war was inevitable from around 1965 until it occurred in June of 1967, and the outcome of that war was absolutely certain.” Green’s findings from US State Dept.: Israel is looking for an excuse to attack the Arabs; Israel’s army is much stronger than all the Arab armies combined; When the war starts – not *if*, when – Israel will win within a week.

    And your war-hero General Matityahu Peled: “The thesis that claimed genocide was suspended above our heads in June 67, and that Israel was fighting for its very existence was only a bluff.”

    Egypt was legally entitled to close the Straits of Tiran (it’s an internal Egyptian waterway) – but the reality is the Straits largely remained open, except for ships flying the Israeli flag (they could come and go using another’s flag) – and Israel had been using those straits for only a very small fraction of its goods. The pacts signed by the Arab states were mutual defense pacts, designed to deter Israel, knowing that Israel had been embarking on a course of war.

    Your very own super-hawkish PM Menachem Begin on the 67 war: “The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” Begin: “If this is Palestine and not the land of Israel, then you are conquerers and not tillers of the land. You are invaders. If this is Palestine, then it belongs to a people who lived here before you came.” Enough said, don’t you think?

    President and General Yitzak Rabin: ” I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into the Sinai on May 14 would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

    Walt Rostow, LBJ’s closest advisor referred to the war as a ‘turkey shoot.’ Israel had carried out a massive sneak attack, destroying the Egyptian airforce on the ground in the first 3 hours. AFTER the Arabs agreed to a US/UN/USSR sponsored ceasefire, Israel kept gobbling up territory. Israel started on Syria AFTER the ceasefire, blowing it up for 2 days in taking over the Golan. This was a war of choice.

    No historian worth anything still posits that Egypt’s spare and ill-trained forces represented an existential threat, nor that closing of Egypt’s Tiran Straits was anything more than a minor inconvenience. Nasser was trying to APPEAR bellicose (as the leader of the Arab world) even as he was desparately trying to tampen down hostilities. The Egyptian VP was scheduled to meet with Prez Johnson the next day!

    IN this ‘existential threat’ to Israel, it lost 275. The Israeli wehrmacht killed 12,000 Egyptians, about 2000 a day. Superior arms? Certainly. But also a war of Israel’s choice, long in the planning.

  60. B99 said on October 1st, 2009 at 5:02pm #

    Mebosa – Hatred of Israel is irrelevant. It’s a state. The establishment of that country is likely the biggest still-standing mistake of the 20th century. But my interest is Israeli policies and practices, aided and abetted by the US – to whom I pay taxes and of whom I can petition.

    Why don’t you hate Israel? It has brought shame upon the Jews.

  61. Mulga Mumblebrain said on October 2nd, 2009 at 3:16pm #

    b99, good exposition of the facts and the decrepit one’s self-serving lies. As for decrepsi’s assertion that I do not waste energy on Islamofascists here-well when a mob of Islamofascists as vulgar, banal, arrogant and mendacious as you, mebosa and the other Zionazi golems emerge, I’ll be glad to. I despise racist, xenophobic, hatemongering, murderous religious thugs, but, vile as the Islamic fundamentalists are, wicked as their crimes indeed are, these pale into insignificance before the crimes of Israel. And nowhere in existence does there exist a more vicious and depraved hypocrisy, borne of the most fanatical racial supremacism, than amongst the Liars of Zion, of which I believe you are a fairly typically scabrous specimen.

  62. deceschi said on October 2nd, 2009 at 4:14pm #

    Bully69 – Israel must always and in any case be prepared for war, as it has a tiny territory and as the Arab neighbours – in their genocidal intentions – tried several times to attack and defeat her (not only in 1948, but also in 1967 and in 1973, let alone through the continuous terror threat). There is no real evidence that Israel wanted to start a war in 1967. The fact that the Arab armies appeared ill-trained is not a reason enough not to be on alert against them, even if Israel knew that. Your “proofs” of Israel’s will to attack are only quotations from Israeli leaders, extrapolated from the context. Quite poor evidence for a student of history books…. But it doesn’t surprise me at all, since you are very smart to put always all the blame on Israel and in the same time to keep the lid on Palestinian, Arab and Islamist sins. Actually, your position is that of an ideologue propagandist, not that of a seeker of truth.

  63. Mulga Mumblebrain said on October 3rd, 2009 at 4:59pm #

    Stop projecting your own sins onto others decrepit one. The most dangerous ‘genocidal’ intentions in evidence in the Near East are those celebrated every year at Purim and Passover, and in the pages of the Book of Joshua, that lexicon of genocide or included in the injunctions in the ‘Holy Torah’ to obliterate the ‘Amalekites’ down to the last babe-in-arms. As a short Googling session reveals, according to various Judeofascists, the Amalekites are either Palestinians, Arabs as a whole, the Iranians, Muslims, or even the USA. I’m afraid that when I see admonitions from the Yesha Council of Rabbis and Torah Sages, as released in 2006, asserting that killing enemy civilians is a ‘mitzvah’ or good deed, I suspect that the true genocidaires wear little hats on their heads. And when I read one of your hate-filled diatribes, excusing the murder of hundreds of Gazan children in the coldest of cold blood, by reference to long past massacres in Yemen or Morocco, I know where I see genocidal fervour lurking. Your typically narcissistic interpretation of history, where the Jews were always the victims of the Moslems, where Jews never massacred Moslems, or one another, and where responsibility and evil is all totally on one side, and suffering and nobility on the other (curiously enough, your side)is so puerile in its Manichean imbecility as to be risible, but used as an excuse for and exculpation of Judaic massacres in the here and now, it is truly detestable. Just when will your bloodlust for revenge for these long gone, alleged, crimes be finally slaked with the blood of living Moslems?Just exactly how much blood must flow?

  64. Mulga Mumblebrain said on October 3rd, 2009 at 5:03pm #

    Sorry, decrepit, I forgot to congratualt you on the audacity of your habitual lying, in asserting that Israel was attacked in 1948. As the world knows, Israel launched its program of ethnic cleansimng through massacre and terror, Plan Dalet, in late 1947, and several months later, Arab armies intervened to stop the slaughter. That is why there are still Arabs living in Israel, as third-class citizens constantly discriminated against and incessantly threatened with expulsuion by Judeiofascists.

  65. B99 said on October 3rd, 2009 at 5:36pm #

    dizzy – you have no evidence for anything you speak of. You KNOW the Jews began the war on the Palestinians because you KNOW of Plan Dalet. You KNOW that 1967 was started by Israel (unless you still believe Eban’s grand lie to the UN). And you KNOW that the Egyptian/Syrian attack of 1973 was carried out WITHIN Egypt and Syria on Israeli troop positions. So it is safe to say that the Arabs have NEVER attacked Israel – Israel started all wars but this one – and this one they asked for.

    But you should always remember – the origins of this conflict are not with the Palestinians attacking stetls but with Jews from abroad displacing and expelling Palestinians in a grand – and violent – colonial effort. You cannot deny the Jews expelled the natives.

    Time for some more history lessons.

  66. B99 said on October 3rd, 2009 at 6:15pm #

    Dizzy – Here’s a tad more on the 1967 ‘war’ (read ‘massacre’).

    In ’62, the Security Council condemned an IDF attack on Syria as a ‘flagrant violation.’ The S.C. also condemned Israel’s ’66 attack of Jordan’s West Bank village of Samu where an IDF force of 4000 armored cars and tanks with air support killed 50 people & demolished 140 buildings. The UN condemned the Israeli attack saying that if they continued the S.C. would have to take more effective steps against Israel.

    In 4/67 Israel began ‘cultivating’ land in the DMZ between Israel and Syria – which act was criticized by the Security Council. Syria’s efforts to remove the ‘cultivators’ were met with Israeli attacks – followed by Israel incrementally advancing its position in the DMZ. In this way Israel gets bigger. And this wasn’t the first time.

    In the run-up to the ’67 war Sec. General U Thant proposed the UN arrange a settlement – Egypt accepted the idea, but Israel rejected it. Thant asked Israel to accept troops on its side – Israel said no. “If only Israel had agreed to permit UNEF to be stationed on its side of the border, even for a short duration, the course of history would have been different – said Thant.

    Nasser asked the UN in 67 to withdraw forces only from a part of the border running from Rafah to Eilat, but not from Gaza and Sharm al-Sheikh which controls the entrance to the Gulf. This is confirmed by Izhak Rabin. U Thant refused, and in doing so lead Nasser into having to request full withdrawal.

    On May 22nd ’67, GENERAL ITZHAK RABIN reported to Israel’s CABINET that the Egyptian forces were in a defensive posture, that they were NOT being deployed to attack. The IDF concluded that Nasser meant to intervene only in case of an Israeli attack against Syria (with which Egypt had a defense treaty).

    Israel’s ’67 attack followed a long and well-rehearsed plan. …

    Besides the other arguments accepted by the world, Israel had no legal entitlement to attack based on denial of waterway use. The Egyptian denial only gives rise to a dispute to be settled by PEACEFUL means – either bi-laterally or through the good offices of a third party. Legally, the closure was not an “armed attack.” AND, under the doctrine of proportionality of force Israel would have only the right to use enough force to reopen the waterway if it had been an international waterway – which it was not.

    Ezer Weizman, Chief of the General Staff Branch said that had Egypt attacked (instead of Israel), Israel would have needed but 13 hours instead of 3 and neither Jordan nor Syria provided any opposition which is why Israel waited to attack them. “We entered the 6-Day war in order to secure a situation in which we can manage our lives as we see fit without external pressures.” He called the ‘67 war “a direct continuation of the 48 war.”

    General Matityahu Peled, on Israel’s General Staff during the 67 war – “the thesis according to which the danger of genocide weighed on us in June 67, and that Israel struggled for its physical existence is only a BLUFF born and developed AFTER the war.” Peled confirmed Rabin’s statement to the cabinet that Egypt planned no attack. “Our General Staff never told the government that the Egyptian military threat represented any danger to Israel.” …

    As Prime Minister, Begin said that “the Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

    But guess what? On June 5, Israel charged Egypt in the Security Council with ATTACKING FIRST. Israel said: “In the early hours of this morning Egyptian armored columns moved in an offensive thrust against Israel’s borders. At the same time Egyptian planes took off from airfields in Sinai and struck out towards Israel. Egyptian artillery in the Gaza Strip shelled the Israel villages of Kissufim, Nahal-Oz and Ein Hashelosha. Netania and Kefar Yavetz have also been bombed.” !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Total fabrication!

    The next day, Foreign Minister Abba Eban repeated this version to the S.C. “On the morning of June 5th, when Egyptian forces engaged us by air and land, bombarding the villages of (see above), we knew that our limit of safety had been reached, and perhaps passed.” “…approching Egyptian aircraft appeared on our radar screens.” In fact, NONE of this was true. Abba Eban’s UN testimony was a complete and unmitigated lie. What a lying sack of shit ‘the venerable’ Mr. Eban was. Ah, Israeli culture on ample display.

  67. B99 said on October 3rd, 2009 at 6:20pm #

    Best thing Israel could do is acknowledge that it was founded in original sin – that is, the Zyonz did not come in peace, but instead acted on their goal of ethnic cleansing of the native population. That’s why on 3/10/48 in the Red House in Tel Aviv, the Zyonz formulated their genocidal Plan Dalet – the 4th and final plan in a series. The chief terrorist of the plan – David Ben Gurion.

  68. B99 said on October 3rd, 2009 at 6:22pm #

    How Jews stole Palestine.
    Throwing bombs into groups of Arabs was an old Hagana specialty. In Haifa, ’47, they threw a bomb into an Arab/Jewish integrated refinery. Arabs who could leave town, did so – and were so advised by British commander Gen. Stockwell – he would not protect them. Operation Scissors (MISPARAYIM) gave away to operation ‘Cleansing the Leven’ (BI’UR HAMETZ), perhaps humanity’s first ethnic cleansing reference, the term ironically taken from the Passover ritual.

  69. B99 said on October 4th, 2009 at 7:16am #

    A conservative estimate of the toll Jews have exacted upon the Palestinians.

    Estimated Total deaths in 39 riots – 329 Jews, 3293 Palestinians.
    47-49 war – 2,000 Jews, many thousands of Pals (5,000 used here)
    1982 Lebanon invasion – 487 Jews, 15,000 Pals, (also 15,000 Lebanese)
    1st Intifada – 85 Jews, 900 Palestinians
    2nd intifada – 1100 Jews, 4200 Palestinians
    Gaza Massacre – 13 Jews, 1400 Palestinians

    Estimated totals – 4000 Jews, 30,000 Palestinians, 15,000 Lebanese

    These are conservative figures – especially with regard to Palestinian deaths in the ’47 -’49 ethnic cleansing. These figures do not include the slow attrition of the Palestinian population through death at the hands of Jews and the state of Israel in all the periods between war events, nor does it include the many thousands of deaths of other Arab nationals from all the many wars they have been subjected to by Israel. To be sure, the death ratios are similar.

  70. rosemarie jackowski said on November 28th, 2009 at 1:43pm #

    Important to read this one again. On Tuesday the Prez will be announcing plans to escalate the war. He will use the troops as a prop and photo op. Soon that’s all they will be needed for. Drones and private contractors are making troops obsolete. The US has made war without US casualties possible – evil brought to the planet through technology.

    Not reported in the news – A hunger strike has been going on to protest the Syracuse operation.

  71. Stations’ Weather Forecast Looks Cloudy - Broadcasting Cable | Oregon State University said on November 28th, 2009 at 2:25pm #

    [...] Posted by Deadbeat on 11/28/2009 at 1:48pm Max Shields has return to promote his Georgist ideology which he desires to use to Posted by Deadbeat on 11/28/2009 at 1:44pm Important to read this one again. On Tuesday the Prez will be announcing plans PC news [...]

  72. Shoppers gather early on Black Friday - Anniston Star | Oregon State University said on November 28th, 2009 at 4:21pm #

    [...] Posted by Deadbeat on 11/28/2009 at 1:48pm Max Shields has return to promote his Georgist ideology which he desires to use to Posted by Deadbeat on 11/28/2009 at 1:44pm Important to read this one again. On Tuesday the Prez will be announcing plans PC news [...]