-B99: “There was no pullout in 2005 except of the settlers. Israel still occupies Gaza – they put a fence around it, they control ingress and egress of people, goods and money, they control the air space and sea space – that’s occupation and the UN says it is occupation.”
It’s obvious that Israel was cautious after the pullout of settlers and all military forces from Gaza. And rightly, as quite a lot of evidence about the situation after the IDF withdrawal proves. For example Human rights watch accused already 2007 bluntly Hamas of war crime because of its “indiscriminate fire” used against Israel Southern communities:
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/10911/section/7.

2700 rockets fired during two years (2005-07) by total absence of any troops or settlers on Gaza soil. The legal conclusions of the report: “Palestinian armed groups routinely violate international humanitarian law when using Qassam-type rockets to attack Israel. They are unlawfully launching strikes that either are directed against civilians or are indiscriminate because they are not directed at a specific military objective. In addition, some statements of the groups responsible for carrying out rocket attacks indicate an intent to use the weapons primarily to spread terror among Israeli civilians, which is also prohibited under international humanitarian law.”
The assertion by Palestinian groups that the rocket attacks are lawful because they are reprisals for Israeli attacks that kill and injure civilians is an incorrect statement of international humanitarian law.”

Yet you do justify this continuous war crime by loaning the very Hamas language to defend the rocket attacks. The mantra word of the anti-Israeli rhetoric is “resistance”, and in name of this “resistance” by all means the radical Palestinians are allowed to kill and spread terror in Israel, that means make life impossible for nearly a million people on daily basis. But if Israel defends her citizens and try to hit the terror infrastuctures, it’s of course unacceptable and a crime against THE LAW beyond comparison.
Keep the borders to Gaza 32
.00000.closed and control them after the disengagement was a logic understandable precaution in consideration of the fact that Hamas was and still is a terror organisation which, among other “funny things”, forcibly and violently kicked out in 2007 their own Palestinian brothers from the Gaza strip, killing them without mercy. The blockade of the Gaza strip in 2007 was the consequence, not the reason for rocket attacks!
- “Israel broke the truce, Hamas kept the truce.”
Again: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/200812192436422934.html)
You cannot say it’s a pro-Israeli source!
- B99: “So what if an angry Hamas member says the zionist entity will be destroyed.”
It’s NOT only the statement of some angry Hamas leader, it’s their programmatic goal in the short and long term. To be blind to this reality doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
- “The reality is that the Jews are ACTUALLY carrying out ethnic cleansing.”
Ethnic cleaning? Come on, Palestinian demographic rates are steadily growing, in Israel AND in Gaza/West Bank as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories#Population

- “Why should anyone recognize the ‘Jewishness of that state”?”
Because until proven otherwise the root of the Middle East conflict is the refusal of the Arabs (Palestinians included) to accept a Jewish state as their neighbour. There no evidence at all – apart from the usual hostile insinuations – that minorities in Israel would be affected negatively by the official recognized Jewish Character of the State of Israel. The rest is malevolent baseless allegation. I suggest you to inform yourself about the future Costitution for Israel, now in advanced stage of development.
http://www.cfisrael.org/minutes_minorities.html

- “I think you just think from the vantage point of racial privilege. “A Good Israeli is a Good German”. It is easy to demonize, but difficult to overcome the ignorance.

- “Gaza and the West Bank are occupied and the proof of Israel’s effort of total genocide of Palestinians – that is the usurpation of their land, the dispersal of the people, and the vanishing of an entire culture is Israel’s end game”.
Total genocide? See above the demographic rates of the Palestinian population. Usurpation of land? Only the will to compromise and aa serious and durable peace will give the Palestinian their land back – terror must stop, settlements will stop.

-”If you are not willing to recognize a Palestinian state”:
Netanyahu: “In my vision of peace, in this small land of ours, two peoples live freely, side-by-side, in amity and mutual respect, each with its own flag and national anthem.” (June 2009)

Willing yes, but on mutual respect.

So what if an angry Hamas member says the zionist entity will be destroyed. The reality is that the Jews are ACTUALLY carrying out ethnic cleansing. Besides, why didn’t you make peace in the quarter century BEFORE the First Intifada? NO, you can’t complain about the emergence of Hamas now when you failed to take the opportunity for peace when the Palestinians did not have guns. You just shit on them then, and broke their arms with batons. Now you are shocked, shocked that Hamas speaks angrily. But let’s get this straight – Israel broke the truce, Hamas kept the truce.

Why should anyone recognize the ‘Jewishness of that state”? You stole their country and now you want them to kiss your feet? I don’t think so. No, I don’t think you are too dense to understand – I think you just think from the vantage point of racial privilege. Gaza and the West Bank are occupied and the proof of Israel’s effort of total genocide of Palestinians – that is the usurpation of their land, the dispersal of the people, and the vanishing of an entire culture is Israel’s end game. It’s no sweat off your brow because you are on top – a Good Israeli is a Good German.

If you are not willing to recognize a Palestinian state – a state that should be almost 90 years old now – then there can be no complaint if they do not recognize yours.

… or are the rockets, in particular after the Israeli pullout 2005, the factual proof that the radical Palestinians don’t want peace but, as stated in the Hamas charter (artikel 6), “strive to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine…”. Confirmed by recent statements by Hamas leaders, for example: “We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity” (Hamas leader Fathi Hammad in Gaza on Friday January 2nd 2009); “suffering by fire is the Jews’ destiny in this world and the next… Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews” (Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam in the newspaper Al Risalah in 2008).
Also recent statements by Fatah leader aren’t really encouraging: Muhammad Dahlan on Al-Arabiya TV on August 4, 2009.: “I have said openly that Fatah itself did not recognize Israel, but that it was the PLO that recognized Israel. Therefore, we did not and will not demand that Hamas as a political, or fascist, movement recognize Israel or not. This is Hamas’s business, since the Fatah movement did not recognize Israel either.”
PLO Ambassador to Lebanon Abbas Zaki, which aired on ANB TV on May 7, 2009:”With the two-state solution, in my opinion, Israel will collapse, because if they get out of Jerusalem, what will become of all the talk about the Promised Land and the Chosen People? …”
Munir Al-Maqdah, head of the “Armed Struggle” Fatah militia in Lebanon, on Al-Quds TV (Lebanon) on August 17, 2009.”The political platform and constitution of Fatah do not recognize the so-called State of Israel, let alone the Jewishness of this state. We do not recognize that artificial entity, the state of Israel, which sooner or later will be removed from the land of Palestine, Allah willing.”

Back to Hamas: Isn’t it at least strange that the number of the rockets increased drammatically in 2006 after the complete dismantling of the settlements in the Gaza strip? Would it not be wiser to seek a diplomatic and peaceful solution in relations with Israel, and insist on that instead of confrontation and terror? But I’m surely too dense to understand this complex issue.

By the way: Israel restrained from reacting with her military might eight years long and started Cast Lead only when the situation for the Southern Israeli communities had become untenable – and only after Hamas had broken the truce (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/200812192436422934.html). So please try to be honest on this.

(Could anyone be more dense – or is it more cold-blooded – that those Israelis within earshot of a few rockets whose gov’t perpetrates the take-over of another’s land YET votes in ever more rightwing gov’ts?)

PS – I’d like to see a throw-weight comparison between the home-made Palestinian rockets and the arsenal that has been fired into the WB & G. Can anyone guess by what factor the latter exceeds the former? Would a million to one be on the light side?

No, funny is only the fact that you can’t see the truth, here and once again, B99. The charge in the Goldman report about Hamas war crimes refers to the 8 years lasting and about ten thousand rockets and thousands mortar shells heavy terror activities by Hamas & consorts on Southern Israel. Several hundred thousand people were living under terror threat every day and night. But, of course, there were only a few dozens killed and some hundreds others injuried. That’s probably why it seems to you unworthy of mention or at the most a reason for amusement.

Your poor understanding of strawman aside, I accurately stated why I asked and didn’t assume. You are very reactionary in your responses and I’m sure even Joshua Frank wouldn’t have assumed I was thinking of him (Why would you think this without asking me?).

As my statement you quoted shows, I said Ron Paul enthusiasts-NOT Ron Paul; Something about the left (or was it the “left” that time?) offering no viable choice for people to turn to? You can keep claiming strawman but I told you why you seem compartmentalized if not closeted and asked sincere questions you are freaking out over.

It’s my responsibility to make you civil?

DB,

In the past, you’ve supported Ron Paul enthusiasts, have interchanged “left” and left and have almost exclusively centered your arguments on Zionism over US Imperialist aims…Whether or not this is innocent or carefully worded, it SEEMS (not IS) that you do indeed have a belief that Zionism controls US evil. If you missed it, I do find the arguments outside SEEMINGLY implied US benevolence compelling.

You know Hue you and lichen must be drinking some ragged brew. Your tactic is to claim something completely false (a strawman) and then proceed to argue that the fallacy is true. As I requested in my previous response please provide a reference to back up your smear. I never supported Ron Paul. You are confusing me with Joshua Frank who supported Ron Paul in 2008. So Hue when you get your head out of your ASS perhaps we can have a civil debate or discussion.

3 civilians killed by rockets into sderot
1 ecuadorean worker killed by a mamas sniper
as i said before you are a liar

(lol… total fallacy joke, mate! Though I do sincerely regret using that verb! I’d drink a pint with ya any day)

In the past, you’ve supported Ron Paul enthusiasts, have interchanged “left” and left and have almost exclusively centered your arguments on Zionism over US Imperialist aims…Whether or not this is innocent or carefully worded, it SEEMS (not IS) that you do indeed have a belief that Zionism controls US evil. If you missed it, I do find the arguments outside SEEMINGLY implied US benevolence compelling.

No assumptions or strawman…it’s why I ask and DO get to the unfucking point.

Do you think the US is exceptional? Do you think it’s special and that its borrowed and doctored constitution are important? I ask these questions of you from time to time because you seem to REALY love the US and believe that Zionism is what makes an otherwise benevolent Empire murderous.

Let’s deconstruct your fallacies. First you assume that I “seem to really love” the U.S. Can you supply a quote of mine where I ever stated that I “love the U.S.” Since I have made several remarks here on DV it should be quite easy to support your contentions. Clearly the reason why I’m suggesting for you do to this is that YOU WON’T find any such remark because I never made any such a statement that would “seem” that I “love the U.S.”. That clearly something that YOU imaged and therefore a fallacy on your part. Therefore I would be making a rebuttal against your fallacious contention. And therefore you be using the “when did you stop beating your wife” fallacy. That would me like me asking you since you live in Australia if you thought Australia is exceptional. I could care less if you believe that what interests me is whether you stand for JUSTICE, EQUALITY and FAIRNESS.

You go on to write …
I know a common response to asking about the evil of Empire before modern zionism is to suggest that “Jewish” bankers were always there (I’m open to it!) but If you want to make that argument, why the love for what they then must have paved the way for in the 15th century?

Look Hue if you want to engage me then quit using a strawman fallacy and get to the fucking point.

Do you think the US is exceptional? Do you think it’s special and that its borrowed and doctored constitution are important? I ask these questions of you from time to time because you seem to REALY love the US and believe that Zionism is what makes an otherwise benevolent Empire murderous. I know a common response to asking about the evil of Empire before modern zionism is to suggest that “Jewish” bankers were always there (I’m open to it!) but If you want to make that argument, why the love for what they then must have paved the way for in the 15th century?