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	<title>Comments on: Time to Plan for the Worst: Seizing Depression as Progressive Correction</title>
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	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
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		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/08/time-to-plan-for-the-worst-seizing-depression-as-progressive-correction/#comment-51886</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9718#comment-51886</guid>
		<description>Yes, which is why he deferentiated between earned and unearned income. It is irrifutable that he  proposed a single (though this has changed in terms of what successors discuss as a practical split tax) rent on land which would pay for all social needs. Such a rent would recover the commons which is common to all. Privitization of the commons is the beginning of concentration of wealth and the creation of monopolies. George formulates a solution. 

Land is not exclusively terra firma, but all of the universe minus that which humans make. But what we make requires &quot;land&quot;. Nothing can happen for human communities and societies without land.

That said, how we treat the land, as a commons we collectively value, or as privativized ownership is the difference between our corporate plutocrats and Henry George.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, which is why he deferentiated between earned and unearned income. It is irrifutable that he  proposed a single (though this has changed in terms of what successors discuss as a practical split tax) rent on land which would pay for all social needs. Such a rent would recover the commons which is common to all. Privitization of the commons is the beginning of concentration of wealth and the creation of monopolies. George formulates a solution. </p>
<p>Land is not exclusively terra firma, but all of the universe minus that which humans make. But what we make requires &#8220;land&#8221;. Nothing can happen for human communities and societies without land.</p>
<p>That said, how we treat the land, as a commons we collectively value, or as privativized ownership is the difference between our corporate plutocrats and Henry George.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Moses</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/08/time-to-plan-for-the-worst-seizing-depression-as-progressive-correction/#comment-51865</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Moses</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 17:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9718#comment-51865</guid>
		<description>&quot;The pen with which I am writing is justly mine&quot; (P&amp;P Bk VII, Ch 1, 334)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The pen with which I am writing is justly mine&#8221; (P&amp;P Bk VII, Ch 1, 334)</p>
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		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/08/time-to-plan-for-the-worst-seizing-depression-as-progressive-correction/#comment-51864</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 17:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9718#comment-51864</guid>
		<description>Bob Matter 
I agree that we do not &quot;own&quot; land or have the right to privatize and thereby &quot;own&quot; it.

But I am very familiar with Henry George and P&amp;P. Land has no inherent value except where &quot;we&quot; form communities and improve what rests on the land. Therefore, and logically, collecting rent on land which is valued on the basis of community investment is not only appropriate, it is the moral thing to do. Today, land is &quot;owned/privatized&quot; and speculated on, producing wealth for the few. I might add unearned wealth. We, the community at large, do not capture that value. 

It&#039;s all about location, Bob. I understand that humans need to live within the life system, not as a &quot;special species&quot;. Rent on land, ensure proper use of land, density of city areas over sprawl which is expensive both in terms of finances to support far flang infrastructure, but most important to the trashing of the planet.

Land rend helps to curb that. But it does much more. 

Suggest another reading of P&amp;P if you think he is saying humans do not have a right to collect rent. That is in fact the very opposite of what he is saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob Matter<br />
I agree that we do not &#8220;own&#8221; land or have the right to privatize and thereby &#8220;own&#8221; it.</p>
<p>But I am very familiar with Henry George and P&amp;P. Land has no inherent value except where &#8220;we&#8221; form communities and improve what rests on the land. Therefore, and logically, collecting rent on land which is valued on the basis of community investment is not only appropriate, it is the moral thing to do. Today, land is &#8220;owned/privatized&#8221; and speculated on, producing wealth for the few. I might add unearned wealth. We, the community at large, do not capture that value. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s all about location, Bob. I understand that humans need to live within the life system, not as a &#8220;special species&#8221;. Rent on land, ensure proper use of land, density of city areas over sprawl which is expensive both in terms of finances to support far flang infrastructure, but most important to the trashing of the planet.</p>
<p>Land rend helps to curb that. But it does much more. </p>
<p>Suggest another reading of P&amp;P if you think he is saying humans do not have a right to collect rent. That is in fact the very opposite of what he is saying.</p>
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		<title>By: bozh</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/08/time-to-plan-for-the-worst-seizing-depression-as-progressive-correction/#comment-51859</link>
		<dc:creator>bozh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9718#comment-51859</guid>
		<description>max, with respect
one doesn&#039;t have to, but cld try a simplicity in explaining what is going on in US and elsewhere.
the institutionalized and by laws-constitution-religion- protected overperson-underperson relationship is not gonna ?ever go away if it is left up to the overclass[es] to change the structure of such an interpersonal relationship and governance [laws, constitution, institutions].

we can&#039;t expect help from clergy since they  base their right to lead the flock on an overmensch ideology.  ? clergy appear part of the  problem.
Today&#039;s &#039;educators&#039;, actors, singers, comedians, athletes, politicians, cia, fbi, city police, private and gov&#039;t armies, judges appear overwhelmingly to be overclass as well.

way out maybe found in, as u say, act locally; i.e., enlighten kids that their children and their children and themselves will ?forever remain an underclass.
and they may act! They may boycott such reactionaries like clooney, pitt, et al.
they may demand that singers also join them in their struggle for a better life and constitution-governance.
boycotting middle class wld help as well. Appealing to cia, fbi, generals, et al also might help.tnx

b99 had been harassing me for ab. 2 mo&#039;s. He thinks, methinks, that by giving me &#039;jewish&#039; evil, rage, supremacism, etc., i might leave DV.
it aint gonna happen.
in any case, editors shld give him a stiff warning that attacking personhood so assiduously as he does is a nono.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>max, with respect<br />
one doesn&#8217;t have to, but cld try a simplicity in explaining what is going on in US and elsewhere.<br />
the institutionalized and by laws-constitution-religion- protected overperson-underperson relationship is not gonna ?ever go away if it is left up to the overclass[es] to change the structure of such an interpersonal relationship and governance [laws, constitution, institutions].</p>
<p>we can&#8217;t expect help from clergy since they  base their right to lead the flock on an overmensch ideology.  ? clergy appear part of the  problem.<br />
Today&#8217;s &#8216;educators&#8217;, actors, singers, comedians, athletes, politicians, cia, fbi, city police, private and gov&#8217;t armies, judges appear overwhelmingly to be overclass as well.</p>
<p>way out maybe found in, as u say, act locally; i.e., enlighten kids that their children and their children and themselves will ?forever remain an underclass.<br />
and they may act! They may boycott such reactionaries like clooney, pitt, et al.<br />
they may demand that singers also join them in their struggle for a better life and constitution-governance.<br />
boycotting middle class wld help as well. Appealing to cia, fbi, generals, et al also might help.tnx</p>
<p>b99 had been harassing me for ab. 2 mo&#8217;s. He thinks, methinks, that by giving me &#8216;jewish&#8217; evil, rage, supremacism, etc., i might leave DV.<br />
it aint gonna happen.<br />
in any case, editors shld give him a stiff warning that attacking personhood so assiduously as he does is a nono.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Matter</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/08/time-to-plan-for-the-worst-seizing-depression-as-progressive-correction/#comment-51854</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Matter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9718#comment-51854</guid>
		<description>&quot;On questions of capital, I have been drawn to San Francisco economist Henry George because of the way he thinks about public and private coordination. He has a strong sense of public responsibility and a keen respect for entrepreneurial talent. A progressive approach to corrections in capital development would be neither public nor private en bloc. Our right to commons does not have to overturn our right to private properties — or vice versa.&quot;

We have no right to own property we did not create with our own labor.  Hence, we have no right to own land and seek rent from it or benefit from its increase in value.  Please re-read Progress and Poverty carefully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On questions of capital, I have been drawn to San Francisco economist Henry George because of the way he thinks about public and private coordination. He has a strong sense of public responsibility and a keen respect for entrepreneurial talent. A progressive approach to corrections in capital development would be neither public nor private en bloc. Our right to commons does not have to overturn our right to private properties — or vice versa.&#8221;</p>
<p>We have no right to own property we did not create with our own labor.  Hence, we have no right to own land and seek rent from it or benefit from its increase in value.  Please re-read Progress and Poverty carefully.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/08/time-to-plan-for-the-worst-seizing-depression-as-progressive-correction/#comment-51853</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9718#comment-51853</guid>
		<description>A bit tepid for my taste, but I think there is some value to this suggestion by Mr. Moses.

At this time, there will be no uprisings. We can nudge one another into some gradation of transition to reduce the shock of what is to come...and come it will...for Western nations it will be here and there because these nations control the world&#039;s resources. Developing nations, will simply STOP dead. But it will then come down with a fury on the West. We can prepare ourselves through the recommendations above....which are relatively trivial...but can provide some means to a new beginning as opposed to a fascistic state which seems the alternative.

This is not &quot;liberalism&quot;. We confuse market theory with corporatism and it&#039;s just a bogus notion. Corporations are about maximizing profits, that requires control of as much of the world&#039;s resources and the cheapest of labor sources. It&#039;s trajectory, left to its drive, is monopoly which has nothing to do with markets. Market theory only plays a tangential role and mostly for corporate propaganda for those who believe in markets to thing that Corporations represent capitalism - which they really don&#039;t.

If we free ourselves for the short-sighted arc of our life we can see more clearly what is happening and whether we have a solvable problem (I don&#039;t think we do if we want to continue Western life style and promote Western style development for &quot;developing countries&quot;) or whether the problem as such is not solvable and requires a whole new paradigm...that is growth is over; and contraction is the new world order...on a massive scale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bit tepid for my taste, but I think there is some value to this suggestion by Mr. Moses.</p>
<p>At this time, there will be no uprisings. We can nudge one another into some gradation of transition to reduce the shock of what is to come&#8230;and come it will&#8230;for Western nations it will be here and there because these nations control the world&#8217;s resources. Developing nations, will simply STOP dead. But it will then come down with a fury on the West. We can prepare ourselves through the recommendations above&#8230;.which are relatively trivial&#8230;but can provide some means to a new beginning as opposed to a fascistic state which seems the alternative.</p>
<p>This is not &#8220;liberalism&#8221;. We confuse market theory with corporatism and it&#8217;s just a bogus notion. Corporations are about maximizing profits, that requires control of as much of the world&#8217;s resources and the cheapest of labor sources. It&#8217;s trajectory, left to its drive, is monopoly which has nothing to do with markets. Market theory only plays a tangential role and mostly for corporate propaganda for those who believe in markets to thing that Corporations represent capitalism &#8211; which they really don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>If we free ourselves for the short-sighted arc of our life we can see more clearly what is happening and whether we have a solvable problem (I don&#8217;t think we do if we want to continue Western life style and promote Western style development for &#8220;developing countries&#8221;) or whether the problem as such is not solvable and requires a whole new paradigm&#8230;that is growth is over; and contraction is the new world order&#8230;on a massive scale.</p>
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		<title>By: Deadbeat</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/08/time-to-plan-for-the-worst-seizing-depression-as-progressive-correction/#comment-51845</link>
		<dc:creator>Deadbeat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9718#comment-51845</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A progressive agenda schooled in market theory might be able to transform these colliding interests into a more humane and more flexible economy.&lt;/i&gt;

It was tried and it was called &quot;Liberalism&quot;.  It failed miserably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>A progressive agenda schooled in market theory might be able to transform these colliding interests into a more humane and more flexible economy.</i></p>
<p>It was tried and it was called &#8220;Liberalism&#8221;.  It failed miserably.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Poe</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/08/time-to-plan-for-the-worst-seizing-depression-as-progressive-correction/#comment-51836</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Poe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 04:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9718#comment-51836</guid>
		<description>We could do all that.  But, then, we could just require any corporation formed, include a nonprofit division.  Professor Yunus calls it, social entrepreneurship.  By the way, the Grameen Bank did just fine these last two years, without a bailout.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We could do all that.  But, then, we could just require any corporation formed, include a nonprofit division.  Professor Yunus calls it, social entrepreneurship.  By the way, the Grameen Bank did just fine these last two years, without a bailout.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/08/time-to-plan-for-the-worst-seizing-depression-as-progressive-correction/#comment-51821</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9718#comment-51821</guid>
		<description>Question to the author:

The left, the right. What is the &quot;common&quot; ground? Is it not the &quot;seedcorn&quot; which truly &quot;accomplishes&quot; all the productive effort? Whom has the ultimate &quot;ownership&quot; of this &quot;seedcorn&quot;? Are you speaking of this &quot;seedcorn&quot; literally or figuratively? Correct me for I am wrong; did not the United States of America come to existence for the very reason for this article? Or, correct me for saying maybe BEFORE  the inception of &quot;THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA&quot; is actually what this article, in its&#039; summation, is actually about!

Maybe the problem is the fact that a &quot;CORPORATE AMERICA&quot; was established in 1788. This would complicate the authors insights. We HAD all that the author speaks of. That was hijacked, (they did know if &#039;da Vinci&#039; and his flying machine) when the founding fathers realized that the expense of fighting for what the author speaks was beyond &quot;their&quot;(founding fathers) ability to pay. There went the &quot;dream&quot;. There began the downward spiral. 

Most human beings only experience what is the &quot;now&quot;, easily molded by those which have knowledge of history. These lessons are much too complicated for the masses as the masses are concerned about achieving of what the author speaks, brought on by the very polar situations which always occur. Balance is out of the question when your financial neck is on the block. 

IMHO we have crossed a bridge which we burnt long ago, were able to traverse the divide only to come to the horrific realization we had no means for a bridge back. 

Since the beginning of the&quot;last great&quot; industrial &quot;revolution&quot; which began in about 1780, there was a so called &quot;middle class&quot; created. Check for yourself, but it seems uncanny that the boom and bust cycles are about an eighty year cycle of their own. During each cycle they ended with a &quot;Great Depression&quot; followed by what was perceived at that time, &quot;A World War&quot;. 

This world is too large(no pun intended), which will always allow the ability of what the author speaks of, to be usurped. We no longer have a &quot;wild frontier&quot; to which to escape and maybe even disappear. To do so in this day and age will most certainly lead to heresy and a burning at the stake!

But then again, there is always &quot;HOPE&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question to the author:</p>
<p>The left, the right. What is the &#8220;common&#8221; ground? Is it not the &#8220;seedcorn&#8221; which truly &#8220;accomplishes&#8221; all the productive effort? Whom has the ultimate &#8220;ownership&#8221; of this &#8220;seedcorn&#8221;? Are you speaking of this &#8220;seedcorn&#8221; literally or figuratively? Correct me for I am wrong; did not the United States of America come to existence for the very reason for this article? Or, correct me for saying maybe BEFORE  the inception of &#8220;THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA&#8221; is actually what this article, in its&#8217; summation, is actually about!</p>
<p>Maybe the problem is the fact that a &#8220;CORPORATE AMERICA&#8221; was established in 1788. This would complicate the authors insights. We HAD all that the author speaks of. That was hijacked, (they did know if &#8216;da Vinci&#8217; and his flying machine) when the founding fathers realized that the expense of fighting for what the author speaks was beyond &#8220;their&#8221;(founding fathers) ability to pay. There went the &#8220;dream&#8221;. There began the downward spiral. </p>
<p>Most human beings only experience what is the &#8220;now&#8221;, easily molded by those which have knowledge of history. These lessons are much too complicated for the masses as the masses are concerned about achieving of what the author speaks, brought on by the very polar situations which always occur. Balance is out of the question when your financial neck is on the block. </p>
<p>IMHO we have crossed a bridge which we burnt long ago, were able to traverse the divide only to come to the horrific realization we had no means for a bridge back. </p>
<p>Since the beginning of the&#8221;last great&#8221; industrial &#8220;revolution&#8221; which began in about 1780, there was a so called &#8220;middle class&#8221; created. Check for yourself, but it seems uncanny that the boom and bust cycles are about an eighty year cycle of their own. During each cycle they ended with a &#8220;Great Depression&#8221; followed by what was perceived at that time, &#8220;A World War&#8221;. </p>
<p>This world is too large(no pun intended), which will always allow the ability of what the author speaks of, to be usurped. We no longer have a &#8220;wild frontier&#8221; to which to escape and maybe even disappear. To do so in this day and age will most certainly lead to heresy and a burning at the stake!</p>
<p>But then again, there is always &#8220;HOPE&#8221;.</p>
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