B99, you made up your stat, and were you found it. The CIA world fact book doesn’t list the stat you claim. I have the site bookmarked, I’ve consulted it many times.

You told an untruth!

Then to compare water treatment and waste water treatment to medical care. Tisk, tisk. Besides the fact it may make sense for the government to be involved in such services, there are private water companies. Southwest Water symbol, swwc (nasdaq), being one that comes to mind.

Do your homework, keep your unlearned opinions to yourself.

Bob

Bob – You’re bullshitting. If you don’t want the state (funded by the taxpayer) to provide for you, you’ll refuse to use drinking water treatment plants and waste water treatment plants. You’ll give up your mortgage subsidy as well. You’ll promise not to use Medicaid if you lose your income, and promise not to accept Medicare in your later years – and turn down your social security and possibly VA and GI Bill benefits.

That less-than-fully-developed-human idea that draws on the make-believe ethos of John Wayne, the strong, silent type that does for himself is garbage. It’s a model that too many would-be men like you have followed for decades – it does not work for our society. It only works for you until the day you need assistance. Just promise you’ll go sleep under a bridge.

PS – You dismissed the stats of where the US stands on health care in the world. I gave you the CIA factbook stats. Do you deny them? Can you argue from a position of strength knowing you are #37? Is that why you switched to the Hollywood Man defense? And of course you got the whole argument wrong by pretending anyone here was saying that single-payer was perfect. In fact, its clear by your pseudo-lecture, you (like most McCain/Bush people) don’t even understand the concept. So I’m pleased that was your last post. Maybe you could go strap on your gun now and swagger down to Town Hall.

I have read with interest all who think single payer is the perfect solution. I’ve been amazed at the naivety, I say naive since I don’t think it proper to identify any of you a stupid. Mostly its a matter of lack of experience, on the other hand there have been a couple of you that I question your connection to reality.

The idea under single payer everyone will have their needs met, is silly at best. That is very simple, an unlimited system, which we can’t pay for. Yes we can many of you will say, just tax the rich! So you want your neighbors to pay your medical bills. Why not have them pay for your food bill? The gas you put in your car? Think about it. Would you care what it cost to drive if the taxpayers paid the bill? What type of car would you drive, a small economy, or a big gas guzzler? What would your grocery list look like, hamburger helper, or fillet mignon?(to all the vegans and vegetarians out there I hope you get what I mean) You would demand the finest in all things. Why? Because you don’t have to pay the bill.

What other goods and services do you want provided to you at no cost?
The idea you will get something for nothing, is childish. Somebody has to pay the bill. I understand many will say, well not me, I can’t pay, let the rich pay. You are the greediest of all. But that is human nature.

Men, women will always look for security. They look to a powerful man to see to their needs, they can’t help themselves its part of their nature, even if they call themselves liberal, they’re no different. Don’t believe it? When was the last time any feminist organization, or single feminist, demanded the government get out of the way of women, and let them fend for themselves. And by the way they’ll be just fine. Never happens does it! With one exception, abortion, which they think the government should pay for.

Men:
Most of the problem we have can be chalked up to one thing, most of you are not men. You are anatomically male, but boys in nature, start providing for yourselves. Get off your lazy butts and get something done. My dad used to say “you can’t get anything done unless you get your butt out of bed in the morning” . Don’t have the education to get ahead, improve yourself. But its hard! Wine wine wine, tough bananas! Learn to be a man! Who’s the comedian that says “get’er done”? He did, he made it in show business, not an easy thing.

Ladies, I understand why you look to the government for your living. Most of us you encounter are to lazy to do anything but drink beer and watch TV. They want a mommy not a wife. And oh my gosh being responsible for children, we just want to make them, not raise them.

Josh, again I say you are a good writer. You articulate your ideas well. But that doesn’t mean you have good ideas! You see an easy solution to a big problem, just have the government pay(why didn’t the rest of us think of that, gee wiz). After that no more thought goes into it. You didn’t think of the logistical problems we have. Were are all the additional doctors going to come from? Were is the additional money to pay for all this come from? And how are you going to provide the high quality services needed by portions of the population who live in more remote areas?

I chalk it up to a lack of experience on your part, talking about it is easy, doing it is hard. I guess what I’m trying to say is, I find you intellectually lazy. You look for easy solutions, there aren’t any. There are simple solutions, but they’re never easy.

Bob

NHS supporters hold US Embassy demo

Demonstrators outside the US Embassy in London have sent a message to America: “We love the NHS.”

More than 50 people gathered in Grosvenor Square, waving banners saying “Go for it America – Our National Health Service is a blessing for all”.

Veteran peace campaigner Bruce Kent organised the demonstration as debate rages in the US about President Barack Obama’s attempts to reform the country’s healthcare system.

Mr Kent, who credits the NHS with saving his life in 2001 with an operation to remove prostate cancer, said: “The NHS is not perfect but it is being really badly abused in the USA and on utterly unreasonable grounds.”

Mr Kent said he wanted to counter the claims by those in America who oppose a government-run health insurance system that the British NHS is proof that such a plan cannot work effectively.

“The people who are abusing the NHS are the ones who benefit from the present system.” he said.

“I am a very grateful recipient of the NHS. I had an operation the cost of which would probably have put me out on the streets if I’d had to pay for it.

“It is an amazing thing to be able to go and get free treatment and not to have to worry about the cost. We’re so used to it we don’t appreciate it enough.”

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090819/tuk-nhs-supporters-hold-us-embassy-demo-6323e80.html

In 2008, 1/100th of one percent (0.01%) of Americans garnered 6% of the nation’s income. That is, about 38,000 people of the 308 million people in the US brought home 6% of all national income.

That’s the highest in US history – at least as far back as 1913. Two earlier high peaks were the 5% that this miniscule population took in 2000 and the 5% it garnered between 1928 and 1930 – at the start of the depression. The filthy rich hoarded the least in the early to mid-1990s but began their climb again under Reagan. The rest of us are all poorer for it.

I’d like to suggest again for Bob and others to go to the sites that fully explain – honestly – what Single Payer – Full, Expanded Medicare for All actually is – as opposed to what’s espoused by the unending corporate propaganda.

When the actual facts are perused – it truly is a no-brainer that this is the best, and only, answer. And as Josh has pointed out, we’re not reinventing any wheel here – the plan’s success is documented in other countries. It’s simply time America had it, too – making the lives and health our citizens better; rather than making health care corporations richer while the citizens suffer – and die – needlessly.

But I do urge anyone who isn’t convinced to go to:

singlepayeraction.org
pnhp.org
hr676.org

You wrote, “Josh your a very good writer, but there are fallacies in your reasoning, and knowledge. Here is reality, when you need to acquire medical services, you either have unlimited resources available, or you don’t!”

Me: Again, under our current system most people DO NOT have these unlimited resource available, yet you fault a future plan for what you believe will be a lack of resources. Care will be rationed under single-payer: rationed by NEED, not by ability to pay.

Bob: There isn’t a third option. Don’t read about the VA system in the Washington Monthly, find out for yourself. Go talk to some vets, especially ones in their 50’s to mid 60’s.

Josh: I got plenty of talks in with my Vietnam Vet father before he passed away and keep in contact with his friends, as well as the other Vet members of my family. Thanks.

Bob: The guys who now need more medical care, because they’ve started having issues with chronic diseases. As I said before 3/4 of all medical dollars in the US are spent treating the five top chronic diseases. How do you change that without rationing care? Hope is not a solution.

Josh: Preventative care and early interventions that will be accessible to people who could not previously afford them.

Between 2003 and 2007 Assurant Health, United Health and WellPoint saved $300 million by rescinding at least 19, 776 policies. (from an editorial in yesterdays Oregonian). Read the fine print of your insurance policy and you will probably find there are limits on coverage amounts. I worked with a man who, after he retired but was too young for Medicare, was cut-off from his anti-depressant because he had reached the limit his private insurance would cover. He killed himself. His fellow workers, myself included, didn’t even know he was being treated for depression.
The ethical question is whether this country has enough compassion to cover all our citizens? Or do we think it is enough to have a bake sale everytime some child without insurance is diagnosed with cancer? Maybe if we called it a War on Illness the public would get behind it. Spending money on war is an easier sell than spending it on healthcare.

We ARE #1 in cost though. Thankfully, much of that money is in the good hands of BlueCross/BlueShield. A finer group you’d never likely meet.

Ditch the insurance companies. They provide NO service, NO product. They make their profit by denying coverage. Who needs them? Health care should not be profit producing – never mind profit producing for a parasitic industry. Why do we need for doctors to deal with the demands, extortions, and forms of 150 insurance companies.? It is a bloated and wasteful private sector – to say nothing of useless. The sooner we go to government guaranteed, taxpayer supported, health care – the sooner the insurance companies can slide down the dumpster into history.

By the way, it may be that 2.5% of the people HOLD 85% of the wealth. By your figures 5% of the nation makes more than 37% of all income. Tax them bigtime. That’s where our money has gone.

Yes, four tier-health system in America. The three rough classes – upper, middle, and working classes DO receive medical care of varying quality – one might say, premium, standard, and basic care. You only have to live in Manhattan (but surely not restricted to) to see this and know this. There is a fourth class – the no-insurance, no doctor, no health care class of the 45 million without insurance and the tens of millions who are officially below the poverty line. That’s how America rations health care. One can die in an emergency waiting room while filling up a bucket with one’s own blood – or one can die of heart failure in that room and be discovered when a new shift comes on.

As for me, distinctly middle class, I requested a routine physical from my general practitioner. I made the call in the 3rd week of July. His earliest opening is the second week of October. I don’t think that is atypical.

Simple, they severely limit treatment to people with the most expensive conditions. If your 25, fall of your bike and break your arm, the care is going to be swift efficient and inexpensive. But if your a 58 year old with COPD, your care is going to be very limited. Why? Because its a very expensive chronic condition from which there is no recovery. Here’s a bit of trivia, several decades back, before the EU was formed, there was the common market. Well the countries of this entity came to the American pharmaceutical companies and said, hey we want cheaper drugs, so your going to sell them to us at a discount. The companies balked, so the Europeans said, well you have a choice, give us the discount or we’ll not honor your patents. And I’ll bet you know the rest of the story.

Josh your a very good writer, but there are fallacies in your reasoning, and knowledge. Here is reality, when you need to acquire medical services, you either have unlimited resources available, or you don’t! There isn’t a third option. Don’t read about the VA system in the Washington Monthly, find out for yourself. Go talk to some vets, especially ones in their 50′s to mid 60′s. The guys who now need more medical care, because they’ve started having issues with chronic diseases. As I said before 3/4 of all medical dollars in the US are spent treating the five top chronic diseases. How do you change that without rationing care? Hope is not a solution.

Optimax:

I don’t listen to Rush, Savage, Beck, Hanity, Orielly, and I graduated high school during the very early part of the Cater administration. When I read your post I couldn’t help but remember something Ben Franklin said, I’m paraphrasing. Its better to be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.

Time to move on.
Bob

We treasure our National Health Service in the UK yet it is under serious attack by the new version of the political party that founded it after WWII, namely the Labour Party now NuLabour under Blair and now Brown. Cameron the Tory leader professes to support the NHS but there is a grouping within that party which has the opposite view. You have seen one of them, Daniel Hannan, on your screens in the US.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/16/tory-mps-back-nhs-dismantling

This is a leader from the Morning Star which asks Who Betrayed our NHS?

Who betrayed our NHS?
Sunday 16 August 2009

Attacking the Tories for being two-faced is usually a bit like criticising the ocean for being too salty. But Gordon Brown’s right to use the word, when his rivals have excelled themselves with their twisting and turning over the NHS.

David Cameron insists that “we love our NHS.” Of course he does.

It would be political suicide for him to say anything else when British voters overwhelmingly back a public health-care system.

No matter which party they support, the vast majority of Britons know that the NHS is a national treasure.

It’s cheaper and more efficient than anything the private sector could ever manage. It works wonders daily in healing the sick, caring for the elderly and bringing new lives into the world.

It means peace of mind for each and every one of us, from cradle to grave – in stark contrast to the sorry failure that is the US system.

The US spends more than twice as much per person as Britain – but about one-sixth of the population still has no health care at all, except what little they can glean from charity.

Hundreds of thousands of people every year are driven into bankruptcy by the cost of a medical emergency.

And just about everyone lives in permanent terror of losing their job, because it also means losing whatever barely adequate health insurance they might get from their bosses.

A scared worker is a compliant worker, one who won’t stand up and fight for anything, be it better pay, shorter hours or the right to join a union.

In short, exactly the kind of worker the Tories want us all to be. That’s why the Thatcher government worked so hard to weaken, undermine and underfund the NHS.

And it’s why Cameron’s cronies are happy to cuddle up to the US extremists and free-market fanatics who are peddling a pack of lies about the NHS in a desperate bid to stop any health-care reform in their own country.

If they could get away with it, the Tories would happily smash the NHS and take us back into the US-style Dark Ages. Two-faced is the word. But unfortunately Brown has left himself open to the same charge, because he’s hardly a convincing defender of the NHS either.

It was new Labour which did a U-turn on its promise to get rid of Thatcher’s hated internal market, with its layer upon layer of bureaucracy and paper-pushing middle managers.

It was new Labour which carried on the Tories’ stupid, wasteful private finance initiative, chucking huge amounts of our money at the private sector for new hospitals which the public sector could have built much more cheaply.

Not content with that, it’s new Labour that’s outsourcing more and more of our actual medical services to inefficient, profit-grabbing private firms.

In short, it’s new Labour that has been quietly putting all the tools in place for a future government – Tory or Labour – to finish the job it’s started and privatise the NHS altogether.

So Brown can talk all he likes about how much he supports the NHS.

And he can spend as much time as he likes picking fights with Cameron over who loves the health service more.

But it’ll all just be hollow talk unless he matches actions to words. And that means kicking out the private sector, tearing up the private finance initiative and restoring the NHS to what it was meant to be – a public service owned by the public and run for the public’s good.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No doubt Bob is ready and primed to respond!

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html

As for your other points, I think we may just be missing each other. I did not say that all medical services will be endless and limitless. I do think, however, that there are solutions to this problem which are far better than our current model. How, for example, is this problem addressed and effectively answered in every other industrialized nation? You act as if it’s a complete impossibility while many other nations have solved the problem! Though we may not benefit from a system modeled exactly on a particular European system, we can answer in our own unique way the question you have posed without going bankrupt.