A Socialist Attends a Town Hall Health Care Meeting

In recent months the health care debate has reached a fevered pitch as all sides clamber to be heard. This debate has centered around two options: the plan proposed by Obama which may, or may not, include a public option but maintains a system of for-profit insurance, or the continuation of the status quo with, perhaps, some “tort reform” and an unclear notion of developing greater competition within the for-profit insurance sector to drive down prices. Minor reforms or the unseen hand of the market? Myths that should have been shattered by the recent economic crisis are alive and well in the debate about health care reform.

Missing from this debate are the millions of us who support a single-payer system. The cost effective and truly humane plan proposed in House Resolution 676 for a National Health Insurance Program, now faces the possibility of being reduced to a footnote in the history of the early twenty-first century healthcare debate. So, what is to be done? My recent trip to a health care themed “town hall” meeting attended by about 250 people in New York State’s 20th district, represented by Scott Murphy (D), provide some answers to this question.

Most of us have by now seen media coverage of these “town hall” meetings: Elected officials make a case for Obamacare, right-wing protestors carry signs denouncing Obama as a socialist and make wild claims about the dictatorial hell “government healthcare” will usher in. Those in support of the president’s as yet unclear plan shout back and carry their own signs. Blows are occasionally exchanged. Single-payer advocates are rarely heard from.

At the town hall meeting I attended, I was surprised to see that the media’s coverage of these events was fairly accurate. One protestor’s sign alluded to the 1973 movie Soylent Green by suggesting that a government run plan might create a dystopian nightmare where patients stand in front of “Obama’s death panel” (as former governor Sarah Palin recently described it) waiting to be judged worthy of scarce, rationed health care. When the town hall was opened to Q&A, right supporters offered an ample serving of this fear-mongering and misinformation.

When I had my chance to speak, I thanked the members of the military, firefighters, and police officers who had spoken (pause, wild applause from the right) – for being living testaments to the success of public services and government-run institutions (laughter and applause from the left and confused silence from the right). I then told my own story — of both of my parents passing away in the past four years, of being told their insurance had run out even after decades of working for the state, that they were denied needed care because of an inability to pay, and that this amounted to rationing health care — rationed based on those who can and cannot afford it. The feared nightmare, I said, is already here.

I asked Congressman Murphy why, despite the support of tens of millions of Americans, a single-payer option was not being discussed as a real alternative to the present system. Several members of the crowd applauded, expressing their agreement, but most were silent. In Congressman Murphy’s reply, he claimed that he had not heard much support from within his district for a single-payer system and had a responsibility to reflect the wishes of his constituents.

The near silence from a crowd of approximately 250 people when I mentioned single-payer left me a bit confused. This crowd had been extremely vocal for over an hour, interrupting Congressman Murphy and nearly every speaker to interject their opinions either for or against the Obama plan. Why were there so few cries in support of single-payer and, even more strangely, why was the right-wing eerily silent when I suggested a plan that would bring us even closer to real socialism? Second, I think Congressman Murphy might have been correct: single-payer advocates have not been vocal enough in making their position known. This is not helped by others on the left who have abandoned hope for single-payer and instead support Obama’s plan because they see single-payer as an impossibility in corporate dominated America. The “lesser of two evils” mentality has apparently migrated from the ballot box to the health care debate.

After asking my questions, I moved around the crowd a bit, striking up conversations with the handful of single-payer advocates as well as Obamacare supporters. It turned out that few of the Obamacare advocates I spoke with had even heard of HR 676, but were very interested to learn more. It became apparent that the near silence I experienced after asking Congressman Murphy about single-payer was attributable to the fact that few there had even heard of HR 676. Most, it seems, had no idea what I was talking about. Congressman Murphy’s claim that few in his district had brought up single-payer started to become more believable. So, where does that leave us?

Fueled by half-truths and outright lies thousands of right wing meet-up groups are springing up around the country, inspired by Glenn Beck and other so called “patriot” pundits. These are the people at the town hall meetings parroting the slogans of fear and divisiveness. Their strategy is working, their numbers are growing, and partly because of their influence the debate over healthcare is not moving beyond the two options mentioned at the beginning of this article.

If we advocates of single-payer have any chance at winning real change, or at least having our voices heard in this debate, we need to act quickly, act firmly, and act collectively to educate the public and make our voices heard. Some basic ideas came to mind as a result of my trip to a town hall meeting.

We should not assume that most people understand what single-payer means, or know that it even exists as an option. Always be willing and able to explain the benefits of HR 676, in comparison to the false options of the other proposals. Flyers with basic information on single-payer can be placed at local establishments such as coffee shops, bars or wherever people gather. We should use the media exposure to our advantage.

Let’s start seriously putting the screws to elected representatives. We should contact them to present single-payer as a viable option. If they reject this, we can escalate the pressure. Either way, the time to act is now!

Of course, we cannot go it alone in this struggle. Consider getting involved with organizations that advocate for single-payer, like the Socialist Party-USA or Healthcare-NOW. History shows that there is power in numbers.

We must always remain in motion. Get active and organize locally to protest, petition, and gain support.

Time is running out. We must act quickly and decisively if our voice is to be heard.

  • This article was originally published in the Socialist WebZine.
  • Josh Hatala is a socialist writer. Read other articles by Josh.

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    1. Josie Michel-Brüning said on August 15th, 2009 at 3:46am #

      Comgratulation to your, as I think, convincing call for “HR 676″ and “Healthcare-NOW” program!!!
      As this issue is concerning every one of your society you could have a chance in educating people, more than in every other issues of your system in the US.
      Finally, even people in Europe, respectively Germany, would profit from your success, because the so called elite here is copying more and more your healthcare system, which you are complaining was so bad for your own parents, for instance.

    2. Michael Kenny said on August 15th, 2009 at 6:53am #

      A European aside: this whole farcical debate is doing immense damage to the US image over here. So much the better, of course, but the more hysterical Obama’s opponents become, the more they shoot themselves in the foot since the same people also tend to be US hegemonists. On the general level, the debate is being watched with a mixture of horror, amusement and contempt. More specifically, the attack on the British NHS has damaged the infamous “special relationship”, with both Brown and Cameron forced to intervene publicy in defence of it and the BBC talking about how “we” (Europeans!) are so different from Americans. Bye, bye “Anglosphere”!

    3. Dogwood said on August 16th, 2009 at 5:00am #

      Thank you, Josh.

      People should also go to singlepayeraction.org. A group from Single Payer Action attended one of the “town hall meetings” in Connecticut. There, it was fascinating because some of the group openly disrupted the discussion controlled by the politicos and the health insurance representatives forcing single payer to be noticed – when, actually, most of the people from the audience who spoke – again and again – were already on the side of single payer on their own! We also passed out literature – got very good coverage in the local paper the next day – in addition to the paper publishing a very good letter to the editor – all explaining and supporting Single Payer – and directing people to the website for more info. Of course, the politicos are trying to dismiss and ignore this. Single Payer Action is effective and you are absolutely correct that the time is now for all of us to act. We must. Also go to nader.org to read Ralph’s current column on Single Payer called “Now Make Me Do It” referring to FDR’s advice to reformers to “Make Him” pass legislation he did not have the votes for. It is only we who can get this desperately needed legislation passed. Single Payer Action is working very hard to do so – and we all have to get involved to make it happen. It’s our only chance.

    4. Bob said on August 16th, 2009 at 9:07am #

      Single payer? Thats not a real accurate description, government paid is a better term. Under a government payment system we all have to pay, thru taxes. The real question becomes, how do you allocate resources?

      When I walk into the Doctor’s office will I have a charge card with unlimited spending, or a card that limits what I can receive?
      Those are the only two choices.

      I currently have private medical insurance. Its a contract between my wife’s employer and the insurance company, it provides payment for care at almost any doctor or hospital in my state(its a Blue Cross plan), and it has limits. That is how a contract works.

      Now if we say medical care is a right, and go to a government sponsored plan. How do we limit the amount of medical or psychological care anyone can receive? And if we do who makes that determination?

      Currently in the U.S. we spend roughly $2.4 trillion, $8000 per person for medical care, again roughly $1.8 trillion or $6000 per person of that goes to treat people with chronic diseases. Cancer, heart disease, diabetes, stroke, and copd, being the 5 most prominent. How is a government funded right going to help our cost problem, and where are we going to get all the doctors we will need to service an additional 45 million people? Giving that responsibility over to the government is at best a very silly proposition, and at worst a train wreck! This after all these are the same people who acquire goods and services for the Pentagon, and run the VA health service(not a model of care compassion and efficiency).

      Anyone who thinks it through, doesn’t want anything to do with a government plan. If you think your going to get unlimited medical care and your rich Uncle Sam is going to pay the bill, you quite naive. What will happen is this; We will have a two tier medical care system, one very high quality, responsive, and modern, only for the wealthy and politically connected. The other for the rest of us, very limited, lower quality, and non responsive. Under our current system it doesn’t matter who you are, you can get some of the finest medical care available anywhere, at the Mayo Clinc, or any of the other top 100 clinics in the country. It is however limited by your ability to pay, but if you have a decent quality medical care insurance policy, as most people do. The care available to you is for all practical purposes unlimited!

      Enough for now.
      Bob

    5. bozh said on August 16th, 2009 at 11:03am #

      giving or restoring an inheritance like healthcare for everyone, does not hinge on the system of healthcare giving.

      receiving health care shld no depend on gov’t; it shld be a funcion of governance; i.e., constitution shld say, Thou shall be medically treated by a doctor.
      no buts, ifs, or explanations, etc. Of course, people who wrote the constitution knew this. But the goal was to establish a permament underclass and rule by the rich.
      writers of the constitution did not dare say, Thou shall not receive healthcare unless u can pay for it. U got no money? Well, that’s because u are lazy and want s’mthing for nothing. They cld then just as now ‘explain’ everything! How convinient for the ruling class!
      they also did not dare say, Ye shall have unequal protection under the law.
      it wld have been at least bit odd to say that while the writer had a slave working his fields and cld be beaten at will.
      so, contrary to their own knowledge that there was no equal protection, they wrote, Ye shall have equal protection under the law.
      even now people confess to crimes they have not comitted. Where is that protection? tnx

    6. Bhaskar said on August 16th, 2009 at 12:07pm #

      Bob your arguments can all be easily, easily refuted.. I won’t do it now, because there are literally thousands and thousands of comparisons between US health care and other industrial nations that deliver single-payer health care to all, for less, at a higher quality.

      50+ million people without health insurance and many more million under-insured means our system is a complete failure.

      “Freedom is only privileged extended unless enjoyed by everyone”

    7. buddy thoms said on August 16th, 2009 at 1:40pm #

      B.S> there is medicare and medicade in every state,it pays for everything unless you have resourses.been there done that with a mother and a sister,one had ins and the other did’nt.both got the same level of care.my mother had a hip replacement at 88 which would not happen anywhere.she died at 93.

    8. Josh Hatala said on August 17th, 2009 at 5:05am #

      Thanks all for your comments. I’d like to address a few points made by the poster Bob.

      Bob: Single payer? Thats not a real accurate description, government paid is a better term. Under a government payment system we all have to pay, thru taxes.

      Josh: Yes, the “single-payer” would be a governmental body that would collect and pay out health care fees. So, I would say that “single-payer” is a fairly accurate description. As for taxes, single-payer advocates have not reached consensus on who will pay what. One common figure, however, is that of an additional 7% tax on employers and a 2% increase on payroll taxes. This would be in conjunction with maintaining our current medicare and publicly funded health systems at their current costs. Keep in mind though the massive savings for employers and employees under a single-payer system under which vampiric private insurance companies no longer exist. In my opinion, I would like to see a more steeply graduated tax on the wealthiest Americans. With class disparities now being larger than what was experienced during the Great Depression, and with the top 5% of Americans earning 85% of the wealth, they can afford it.

      Bob: The real question becomes, how do you allocate resources?

      Josh: Let’s ask ourselves that question now as it relates to our current system. Often resources are allocated based on ability to pay or retain a job with benefits. In my own experience, as related in the article, I have seen those seemingly secure employer based health benefits dry up, leaving the only options for adequate care to be : 1.)pay out of pocket or 2.) pay out of pocket and go broke until medicare kicks in. Roughly 18,000 Americans die each year because of this rationing.

      Bob: When I walk into the Doctor’s office will I have a charge card with unlimited spending, or a card that limits what I can receive?

      Josh: Again, under our current system most are limited by their finances or by the mandates of their insurer. Only certain procedures are covered a finite number of times. Most of us cannot afford a blank check approach to our healthcare. Under a single-payer system doctors and patients decide on what is the best method of prevention and treatment.

      Bob: I currently have private medical insurance. Its a contract between my wife’s employer and the insurance company, it provides payment for care at almost any doctor or hospital in my state(its a Blue Cross plan), and it has limits. That is how a contract works.
      Now if we say medical care is a right, and go to a government sponsored plan. How do we limit the amount of medical or psychological care anyone can receive? And if we do who makes that determination?

      Josh: As you mentioned, currently the insurance companies decide for you the amount of care one can receive. For the insurance company, the primary goal is profit. The bottom line is, it is in their best interest to limit care. So, we now have corporations coming between you and your doctor to decide on your best course of treatment. I think your question, which amounts to “will there be rationed care”, has been answered by mostly successful single-payer and near single-payer systems throughout the world. In fact, the majority of the western industrialized world. These systems of public insurance consistently outrank ours on all fronts. As for who determines who gets care (as if it could get worse than a for profit business deciding whether they want to lose profit), take a look at Canada where these decisions are made by physicians. Also take a look there (or across the pond) to dispel the myth of inhumane waiting periods to receive treatment. Healthcare need not be as rationed as it is now.

      Bob: Currently in the U.S. we spend roughly $2.4 trillion, $8000 per person for medical care, again roughly $1.8 trillion or $6000 per person of that goes to treat people with chronic diseases. Cancer, heart disease, diabetes, stroke, and copd, being the 5 most prominent. How is a government funded right going to help our cost problem, and where are we going to get all the doctors we will need to service an additional 45 million people?

      Josh: Yes, we spend more per person than any country in the world yet we rank 37th in the world for the quality of our care. Yet, somehow, insurance companies continue to get rich off this system. It seems they’re the ONLY ones benefiting. Studies show that many, many people who develop the health problems you described above delay care for long periods or do not get regular check ups because of an inability to pay medical costs. This lack of preventative medicine leads to serious and expensive problems, raising costs across the board. With universal access to doctors, these costs will be seriously mitigated. Also, currently 31% of health care costs go to insurance company bureaucracy – a cost that would be much, much lower under a single-payer system. Additionally, when we pay into a single-payer non-for-profit system we will not be paying for CEO bonuses and salaries, insurance company profits, or their marketing, advertising, and lobbying. That is a huge chunk of money – money that will be directed towards better, universal care. The estimated savings, in fact, are in the hundreds of billions per year. As you said, we pay the most per person of any country in the world- these expenses mentioned above have much to do with that and are the reason nearly every other industrialized country in the world has rejected our model and opted for a more cost effective and humane program. As for getting doctors- we currently have too few primary care physicians. In fact, we have far fewer than systems with better health systems. This is due, in part, to the attractiveness of the higher paying specialty fields. Joined with a single-payer system would most likely be incentives for doctors to become primary care physicians – perhaps increased salaries and loan forgiveness programs.

      Bob: Giving that responsibility over to the government is at best a very silly proposition, and at worst a train wreck! This after all these are the same people who acquire goods and services for the Pentagon, and run the VA health service(not a model of care compassion and efficiency).

      Josh: You’re wrong here, Bob. The VA consistently ranks among the best health providers in the US, beating out the HMOs. Not perfect? Perhaps not. Better than private insurers? That’s what the rankings and awards seem to be saying. Maybe you’re thinking of Walter Reed which is run by the Department of Defense- a different story altogether.

      Bob: Anyone who thinks it through, doesn’t want anything to do with a government plan.

      Josh: I’m fairly confident I thought it through. Sorry, Bob. But let’s take the emphasis off the government for a second. A government agency would be the collector and payer- yes. However, the government will not be the sole employer of doctors and will not be as involved in the administration of a single-payer plan as its opponents would like us to believe. Under single-payer we would see elected and sometimes appointed state/local agencies that are much more accountable to us than the insurance companies and their wasteful bureaucracies.

      Bob: If you think your going to get unlimited medical care and your rich Uncle Sam is going to pay the bill, you quite naive.
      What will happen is this; We will have a two tier medical care system, one very high quality, responsive, and modern, only for the wealthy and politically connected. The other for the rest of us, very limited, lower quality, and non responsive.

      Josh: Single-payer style systems around the world prove otherwise. With the elimination of the majority of insurance companies this ghettoization of care would be very, very unlikely since all would be on the same plan. In fact, having nearly everyone on the same plan, wealthy and poor alike, would help ensure it is run well. Perhaps under Obama’s proposed “public otion” you will be left with this two-tiered system, but not under single-payer.

      Bob: Under our current system it doesn’t matter who you are, you can get some of the finest medical care available anywhere, at the Mayo Clinc, or any of the other top 100 clinics in the country. It is however limited by your ability to pay, but if you have a decent quality medical care insurance policy, as most people do. The care available to you is for all practical purposes unlimited!

      Josh: Great medicine is practiced here. Still, we’re somehow ranked 37th in the world and have higher infant mortality rates than most countries in the west. So, something’s wrong. Hey, my mother thought her care was unlimited too…until it wasn’t.

    9. Bob said on August 17th, 2009 at 5:34am #

      Bhaskar, if my arguments are so easy to refute, do it. I read quite frequently your assertion “other industrial nations that deliver single-payer health care to all, for less, at a higher quality”, or at least something similar. The two most frequent examples are longevity, and infant mortality. First longevity, included in that number are people dying from unnatural events, ie. auto accidents, drive by shootings, in other words, people who have been killed, not died from disease. Infant mortality, we have a large portion of young females living in poverty, abusing drugs and alcohol(ever heard of fetal alcohol syndrome), that group is where the bulk of mortality comes from. Tell me how we fix those two problems!

      Fact, 3 out of 4 dollars we spend on medical care, is for the small percentage of people (roughly 20 %) with chronic health issues (I listed the top 5 in my last post). The only way to significantly reduce medical expenses, is to reduce the dollars this group of people are consuming. I other words stop treating them

      Show me how your going to provide, virtually unlimited, high quality medical care for all. Using the same or less amount of dollars! And, using the current infrastructure, in other words without any more doctors and associated medical professionals.

      If you have a better plan I’m all ears. I have yet to hear of one.

      Bob

    10. b99 said on August 17th, 2009 at 8:00am #

      Bob – Yes, tax payer supported health care. That’s what it means to live in a society rather than in an economy. We all pay, we all receive. That’s who is to pay for the 45 million uninsured, the tax payer. If it requires an increase in taxes for those making over $100,000 annually – then so be it. Obamas $250,000 lower limit is insufficient.

      Right now a BC/BS or similar clerk, operating under the insurance company stipulation that paying for procedures means a reduction in profit, is arbitrarily denying payments despite the ‘insured’having paid out for decades. I think I’d rather have a gov’t clerk on the job – at least she and the gov’t is petitionable – and not answerable to share holders.

      The costs you site are how expensive ‘health care’ is with a middleman involved – the isurance companies – who provide no health service whatsoever – who provide no health product whatsoever.

      That the Pentagon is a funnel for tax payer money and that the VA is starved for funds is a product of Reagan/Bush conservatism. The VA, in fact, is the gold-standard for health care (especially considering it operates under a political regime that believes that long-term care makes the military vulnerable to charges that it does permanent damage to soldiers). I’d like to see VA care for all Americans. It’s far more efficient than a system that requires doctors to have forms for 150 insurance providers.
      I don’t want unlimited medical care – but i certainly don’t want an insurance company bureaucrat making that decision. Thank you but no thank you.

      We already have a four-tier system – one for the wealthy, a second for the middle class, a third for the poor – and a fourth – a non-system for the untouchables – those without insurance. Either we are going to be a modern Western nation or we are going to stick with the Brazil/India masximally polarized model.

      There is currently no ‘decent’ model of insurance. Deductibles are high, co-pays are constant, there’s no coverage for many drugs nor dentistry nor optometry, denial of coverage for a procedure is routine, dropped coverage is rampaged if you are going to cost them money. Who needs insurance companies?

    11. MRH said on August 17th, 2009 at 4:34pm #

      @Bob and similarly-opinioned people: YOU go without health insurance for 20+ years, as I have, with extremely limited “ability to pay,” and get older or get sick. Walk in others’ shoes, and your fears and fixed ideas will, I guarantee, change. What your ilk are lacking is an imagination.

    12. optimax said on August 17th, 2009 at 6:30pm #

      Bob,
      Do you think Wall St. greed caused the finncial meltdown? that they don’t care about you and will ruin this country to get as much as they can? Well, you are just as greedy, afraid that insuring another 45 million will take away your ability to have high quality health care. It won’t but you believe the fearmongering of Savage, Beck and Rush. They are just shills for the corporatists and I’m ashamed of Americans like you who fall for their propaganda, willingly giving them your power and destroying your children’s future. You probably don’t even remember Glenn Beck a couple of years ago saying America’s health care was the worst in the world after his surgery went bad. Now he says we have the best healthcare in the world. He is a liar and hypocrite who depends on your inability to remember the past to further his demagogic agenda.
      You’re living proof of our failed educational system, which started downhill under Reagan, ruining California’s first, and culminating in an easily manipulated citizenry who parrot the doublespeak of Brother Rush. We are on the edge of becoming a Third World country. Check the statistics, learn the facts. Your sole purpose in life is to make these Bozos rich.

    13. Bob said on August 17th, 2009 at 7:35pm #

      b99, geez get a better handle!

      A four tier system? What planet are you on?

      Some of the finest orthopedic surgeons in the country work with the professional and major college sports leagues. The doctors all work in clinics of their own or they work with other colleagues in a larger practice. If you need knee surgery for instance, and want one of the best to do your surgery, call the clinic and make an appointment. These doctors all work on average people in their practice every day. Same with the vast majority of doctors, there aren’t very many that cater to an exclusive crowd. Even the doctors at the Mayo clinics,( arguably the finest set of clinics in the world) work with patients in all walks of life every day.

      Josh:
      What you’re telling me is I will get unlimited medical care paid for by the government. You wrote “Under a single-payer system doctors and patients decide on what is the best method of prevention and treatment” Obviously you are young and naive, and haven’t paid a lot of attention to the real world. Thats not how it works.

      This is the best of all:
      “Josh: You’re wrong here, Bob. The VA consistently ranks among the best health providers in the US, beating out the HMOs. Not perfect? Perhaps not. Better than private insurers? That’s what the rankings and awards seem to be saying. ”

      Go talk to a few vets, especially ones who use the VA health system as their only medical care provider. I expect your eyes to be opened rather quickly. Wait in line just to make an appointment, then long waits to see a specialist. I have a good friend , a retired reserve officer, has used the VA system for 30+ years. Now is eligible for tricare, works like medicare, go to any doctor, at any clinic, nation wide. He couldn’t wait to dump the VA. You’d also be hard pressed to find a VA clinic listed in the top 100 medical clinics in the US.

      You made two assertions, 1, the US is 37 in quality care, 2, 5% of the people make 85% of the wealth. What is your source of these tidbits? Michael Moore’s movie? The first assertion is so profoundly stupid its not even worth discussing. As to the 2nd assertion.
      Obviously you haven’t done your homework. Here is the data, for 2007 (the last year available) according to the IRS. Top 5% of income filers made 37.44%, top 25% made 68.71% , and top 50% made 87.74% of all income. If your talking only of individual wealth, the majority is controlled by little old ladies. Why? Simple they are the last to die.

      You claim to have thought it through, how silly. You don’t even have rudimentary knowledge.

      Have a great week.
      Bob

    14. Bob said on August 17th, 2009 at 7:48pm #

      MRH:

      Do you want the rest of us to by you a house, cloth you, feed you, burp you, and put you to bed?

      We don’t owe you a living, you’re responsible for your own welfare. If you failed so far, so be it, but don’t quit. I assume you are a grown man, if you are get moving. You live in the land of opportunity, quit feeling sorry for yourself, and get to work. If you chose not to, as a grown man you have chosen to live with the consequences of your decisions.

      I will clarify one thing, if you are truly handicapped in some manner, you should have your needs seen to in a limited way.

      have a great week.
      Bob

    15. Josh Hatala said on August 17th, 2009 at 9:30pm #

      Bob: Regarding VA hospitals you might want to start with this article:

      http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html

      As for your other points, I think we may just be missing each other. I did not say that all medical services will be endless and limitless. I do think, however, that there are solutions to this problem which are far better than our current model. How, for example, is this problem addressed and effectively answered in every other industrialized nation? You act as if it’s a complete impossibility while many other nations have solved the problem! Though we may not benefit from a system modeled exactly on a particular European system, we can answer in our own unique way the question you have posed without going bankrupt.

    16. mary said on August 18th, 2009 at 12:43am #

      Having become accustomed to the existence of Zionist trolls, it seems that we now have to accept the offerings from the trolls speaking on behalf of the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

      We treasure our National Health Service in the UK yet it is under serious attack by the new version of the political party that founded it after WWII, namely the Labour Party now NuLabour under Blair and now Brown. Cameron the Tory leader professes to support the NHS but there is a grouping within that party which has the opposite view. You have seen one of them, Daniel Hannan, on your screens in the US.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/16/tory-mps-back-nhs-dismantling

      This is a leader from the Morning Star which asks Who Betrayed our NHS?

      Who betrayed our NHS?
      Sunday 16 August 2009

      Attacking the Tories for being two-faced is usually a bit like criticising the ocean for being too salty. But Gordon Brown’s right to use the word, when his rivals have excelled themselves with their twisting and turning over the NHS.

      David Cameron insists that “we love our NHS.” Of course he does.

      It would be political suicide for him to say anything else when British voters overwhelmingly back a public health-care system.

      No matter which party they support, the vast majority of Britons know that the NHS is a national treasure.

      It’s cheaper and more efficient than anything the private sector could ever manage. It works wonders daily in healing the sick, caring for the elderly and bringing new lives into the world.

      It means peace of mind for each and every one of us, from cradle to grave – in stark contrast to the sorry failure that is the US system.

      The US spends more than twice as much per person as Britain – but about one-sixth of the population still has no health care at all, except what little they can glean from charity.

      Hundreds of thousands of people every year are driven into bankruptcy by the cost of a medical emergency.

      And just about everyone lives in permanent terror of losing their job, because it also means losing whatever barely adequate health insurance they might get from their bosses.

      A scared worker is a compliant worker, one who won’t stand up and fight for anything, be it better pay, shorter hours or the right to join a union.

      In short, exactly the kind of worker the Tories want us all to be. That’s why the Thatcher government worked so hard to weaken, undermine and underfund the NHS.

      And it’s why Cameron’s cronies are happy to cuddle up to the US extremists and free-market fanatics who are peddling a pack of lies about the NHS in a desperate bid to stop any health-care reform in their own country.

      If they could get away with it, the Tories would happily smash the NHS and take us back into the US-style Dark Ages. Two-faced is the word. But unfortunately Brown has left himself open to the same charge, because he’s hardly a convincing defender of the NHS either.

      It was new Labour which did a U-turn on its promise to get rid of Thatcher’s hated internal market, with its layer upon layer of bureaucracy and paper-pushing middle managers.

      It was new Labour which carried on the Tories’ stupid, wasteful private finance initiative, chucking huge amounts of our money at the private sector for new hospitals which the public sector could have built much more cheaply.

      Not content with that, it’s new Labour that’s outsourcing more and more of our actual medical services to inefficient, profit-grabbing private firms.

      In short, it’s new Labour that has been quietly putting all the tools in place for a future government – Tory or Labour – to finish the job it’s started and privatise the NHS altogether.

      So Brown can talk all he likes about how much he supports the NHS.

      And he can spend as much time as he likes picking fights with Cameron over who loves the health service more.

      But it’ll all just be hollow talk unless he matches actions to words. And that means kicking out the private sector, tearing up the private finance initiative and restoring the NHS to what it was meant to be – a public service owned by the public and run for the public’s good.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      No doubt Bob is ready and primed to respond!

    17. Bob said on August 18th, 2009 at 6:10am #

      Good morning Josh, you asked a question.”How, for example, is this problem addressed and effectively answered in every other industrialized nation? ”

      Simple, they severely limit treatment to people with the most expensive conditions. If your 25, fall of your bike and break your arm, the care is going to be swift efficient and inexpensive. But if your a 58 year old with COPD, your care is going to be very limited. Why? Because its a very expensive chronic condition from which there is no recovery. Here’s a bit of trivia, several decades back, before the EU was formed, there was the common market. Well the countries of this entity came to the American pharmaceutical companies and said, hey we want cheaper drugs, so your going to sell them to us at a discount. The companies balked, so the Europeans said, well you have a choice, give us the discount or we’ll not honor your patents. And I’ll bet you know the rest of the story.

      Josh your a very good writer, but there are fallacies in your reasoning, and knowledge. Here is reality, when you need to acquire medical services, you either have unlimited resources available, or you don’t! There isn’t a third option. Don’t read about the VA system in the Washington Monthly, find out for yourself. Go talk to some vets, especially ones in their 50′s to mid 60′s. The guys who now need more medical care, because they’ve started having issues with chronic diseases. As I said before 3/4 of all medical dollars in the US are spent treating the five top chronic diseases. How do you change that without rationing care? Hope is not a solution.

      Optimax:

      I don’t listen to Rush, Savage, Beck, Hanity, Orielly, and I graduated high school during the very early part of the Cater administration. When I read your post I couldn’t help but remember something Ben Franklin said, I’m paraphrasing. Its better to be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.

      Time to move on.
      Bob

    18. b99 said on August 18th, 2009 at 6:43am #

      Bob- what could be a better handle than B99? How about if I called myself Bob? Then I could speak for you, right? And then you’d have to explain that it’s a different Bob.

      Yes, four tier-health system in America. The three rough classes – upper, middle, and working classes DO receive medical care of varying quality – one might say, premium, standard, and basic care. You only have to live in Manhattan (but surely not restricted to) to see this and know this. There is a fourth class – the no-insurance, no doctor, no health care class of the 45 million without insurance and the tens of millions who are officially below the poverty line. That’s how America rations health care. One can die in an emergency waiting room while filling up a bucket with one’s own blood – or one can die of heart failure in that room and be discovered when a new shift comes on.

      As for me, distinctly middle class, I requested a routine physical from my general practitioner. I made the call in the 3rd week of July. His earliest opening is the second week of October. I don’t think that is atypical.

    19. b99 said on August 18th, 2009 at 6:56am #

      Bob – #37. The US is #37 in the world by standard measures of health care. At twice the price. Look it up.

      Ditch the insurance companies. They provide NO service, NO product. They make their profit by denying coverage. Who needs them? Health care should not be profit producing – never mind profit producing for a parasitic industry. Why do we need for doctors to deal with the demands, extortions, and forms of 150 insurance companies.? It is a bloated and wasteful private sector – to say nothing of useless. The sooner we go to government guaranteed, taxpayer supported, health care – the sooner the insurance companies can slide down the dumpster into history.

      By the way, it may be that 2.5% of the people HOLD 85% of the wealth. By your figures 5% of the nation makes more than 37% of all income. Tax them bigtime. That’s where our money has gone.

    20. b99 said on August 18th, 2009 at 7:34am #

      Bob – According to the CIA World Factbook – the US is about 47th in the world in such esoteric measures as INFANT MORTALITY and LIFE EXPECTANCY. When I discount the political entities that are not nation/states (say Greenland), the US improves to about 37th in each – behind such wealthy luminaries as Greece, Portugal, Jordan, Cyprus and our good friend Cuba.

      We ARE #1 in cost though. Thankfully, much of that money is in the good hands of BlueCross/BlueShield. A finer group you’d never likely meet.

    21. optimax said on August 18th, 2009 at 8:34am #

      Bob,
      I know vets who use the VA system and, though some are in their eighties and near the end of their lives with chronic conditions, they are well taken care of. I’m not sure about this but there may be a different level of care for for some younger vets in that the elgibility requirements were changed in the eighties, treatment for non-service related illnesses for them is not always covered. Many benefits for vets were reduced in the eighties–payments for college being one. In fact, many industries adopted a two-tiered system for benefits and wages at this time, a lower level for the new-hires. It’s the old divide and conquer.

      Between 2003 and 2007 Assurant Health, United Health and WellPoint saved $300 million by rescinding at least 19, 776 policies. (from an editorial in yesterdays Oregonian). Read the fine print of your insurance policy and you will probably find there are limits on coverage amounts. I worked with a man who, after he retired but was too young for Medicare, was cut-off from his anti-depressant because he had reached the limit his private insurance would cover. He killed himself. His fellow workers, myself included, didn’t even know he was being treated for depression.
      The ethical question is whether this country has enough compassion to cover all our citizens? Or do we think it is enough to have a bake sale everytime some child without insurance is diagnosed with cancer? Maybe if we called it a War on Illness the public would get behind it. Spending money on war is an easier sell than spending it on healthcare.

    22. Josh Hatala said on August 18th, 2009 at 8:38am #

      Bob, Bob, Bob…

      You wrote, “Josh your a very good writer, but there are fallacies in your reasoning, and knowledge. Here is reality, when you need to acquire medical services, you either have unlimited resources available, or you don’t!”

      Me: Again, under our current system most people DO NOT have these unlimited resource available, yet you fault a future plan for what you believe will be a lack of resources. Care will be rationed under single-payer: rationed by NEED, not by ability to pay.

      Bob: There isn’t a third option. Don’t read about the VA system in the Washington Monthly, find out for yourself. Go talk to some vets, especially ones in their 50’s to mid 60’s.

      Josh: I got plenty of talks in with my Vietnam Vet father before he passed away and keep in contact with his friends, as well as the other Vet members of my family. Thanks.

      Bob: The guys who now need more medical care, because they’ve started having issues with chronic diseases. As I said before 3/4 of all medical dollars in the US are spent treating the five top chronic diseases. How do you change that without rationing care? Hope is not a solution.

      Josh: Preventative care and early interventions that will be accessible to people who could not previously afford them.

    23. Dogwood said on August 18th, 2009 at 11:01am #

      Thanks again Josh for taking the time to respond to Bob.

      I’d like to suggest again for Bob and others to go to the sites that fully explain – honestly – what Single Payer – Full, Expanded Medicare for All actually is – as opposed to what’s espoused by the unending corporate propaganda.

      When the actual facts are perused – it truly is a no-brainer that this is the best, and only, answer. And as Josh has pointed out, we’re not reinventing any wheel here – the plan’s success is documented in other countries. It’s simply time America had it, too – making the lives and health our citizens better; rather than making health care corporations richer while the citizens suffer – and die – needlessly.

      But I do urge anyone who isn’t convinced to go to:

      singlepayeraction.org
      pnhp.org
      hr676.org

    24. B99 said on August 18th, 2009 at 3:17pm #

      Bob – Here is a key USA stat on population and income.

      In 2008, 1/100th of one percent (0.01%) of Americans garnered 6% of the nation’s income. That is, about 38,000 people of the 308 million people in the US brought home 6% of all national income.

      That’s the highest in US history – at least as far back as 1913. Two earlier high peaks were the 5% that this miniscule population took in 2000 and the 5% it garnered between 1928 and 1930 – at the start of the depression. The filthy rich hoarded the least in the early to mid-1990s but began their climb again under Reagan. The rest of us are all poorer for it.

    25. B99 said on August 18th, 2009 at 6:47pm #

      Bob – My error – 1/100th of the American population is about 31,000 (not 38K) people. Even more concentrated.

    26. mary said on August 19th, 2009 at 1:39pm #

      “Go for it America”.

      NHS supporters hold US Embassy demo

      Demonstrators outside the US Embassy in London have sent a message to America: “We love the NHS.”

      More than 50 people gathered in Grosvenor Square, waving banners saying “Go for it America – Our National Health Service is a blessing for all”.

      Veteran peace campaigner Bruce Kent organised the demonstration as debate rages in the US about President Barack Obama’s attempts to reform the country’s healthcare system.

      Mr Kent, who credits the NHS with saving his life in 2001 with an operation to remove prostate cancer, said: “The NHS is not perfect but it is being really badly abused in the USA and on utterly unreasonable grounds.”

      Mr Kent said he wanted to counter the claims by those in America who oppose a government-run health insurance system that the British NHS is proof that such a plan cannot work effectively.

      “The people who are abusing the NHS are the ones who benefit from the present system.” he said.

      “I am a very grateful recipient of the NHS. I had an operation the cost of which would probably have put me out on the streets if I’d had to pay for it.

      “It is an amazing thing to be able to go and get free treatment and not to have to worry about the cost. We’re so used to it we don’t appreciate it enough.”

      http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090819/tuk-nhs-supporters-hold-us-embassy-demo-6323e80.html

    27. Bob said on August 20th, 2009 at 7:37am #

      Hi folks last post on this article, time to beat a different dead horse.

      I have read with interest all who think single payer is the perfect solution. I’ve been amazed at the naivety, I say naive since I don’t think it proper to identify any of you a stupid. Mostly its a matter of lack of experience, on the other hand there have been a couple of you that I question your connection to reality.

      The idea under single payer everyone will have their needs met, is silly at best. That is very simple, an unlimited system, which we can’t pay for. Yes we can many of you will say, just tax the rich! So you want your neighbors to pay your medical bills. Why not have them pay for your food bill? The gas you put in your car? Think about it. Would you care what it cost to drive if the taxpayers paid the bill? What type of car would you drive, a small economy, or a big gas guzzler? What would your grocery list look like, hamburger helper, or fillet mignon?(to all the vegans and vegetarians out there I hope you get what I mean) You would demand the finest in all things. Why? Because you don’t have to pay the bill.

      What other goods and services do you want provided to you at no cost?
      The idea you will get something for nothing, is childish. Somebody has to pay the bill. I understand many will say, well not me, I can’t pay, let the rich pay. You are the greediest of all. But that is human nature.

      Men, women will always look for security. They look to a powerful man to see to their needs, they can’t help themselves its part of their nature, even if they call themselves liberal, they’re no different. Don’t believe it? When was the last time any feminist organization, or single feminist, demanded the government get out of the way of women, and let them fend for themselves. And by the way they’ll be just fine. Never happens does it! With one exception, abortion, which they think the government should pay for.

      Men:
      Most of the problem we have can be chalked up to one thing, most of you are not men. You are anatomically male, but boys in nature, start providing for yourselves. Get off your lazy butts and get something done. My dad used to say “you can’t get anything done unless you get your butt out of bed in the morning” . Don’t have the education to get ahead, improve yourself. But its hard! Wine wine wine, tough bananas! Learn to be a man! Who’s the comedian that says “get’er done”? He did, he made it in show business, not an easy thing.

      Ladies, I understand why you look to the government for your living. Most of us you encounter are to lazy to do anything but drink beer and watch TV. They want a mommy not a wife. And oh my gosh being responsible for children, we just want to make them, not raise them.

      Josh, again I say you are a good writer. You articulate your ideas well. But that doesn’t mean you have good ideas! You see an easy solution to a big problem, just have the government pay(why didn’t the rest of us think of that, gee wiz). After that no more thought goes into it. You didn’t think of the logistical problems we have. Were are all the additional doctors going to come from? Were is the additional money to pay for all this come from? And how are you going to provide the high quality services needed by portions of the population who live in more remote areas?

      I chalk it up to a lack of experience on your part, talking about it is easy, doing it is hard. I guess what I’m trying to say is, I find you intellectually lazy. You look for easy solutions, there aren’t any. There are simple solutions, but they’re never easy.

      Bob

    28. Helmut Getto said on August 20th, 2009 at 8:23am #

      One question … have you ever lived in a country, for a length of time, that only has national health care? If you have ever dealt with it, saw it first hand, you would not want desire it or endorse it. As many things as we need to do to fix health care in this country … I would ALWAYS choose our health choices here in the USA. My wife and I lived in Austria under national health care for 6 years, traveled extensively in western and eastern Europe and saw their care for ourselves … no thank you!!!

    29. Kim Petersen said on August 20th, 2009 at 9:30am #

      Helmut,
      I was born in and grew up in such a country with national health care, and I submit your comments reflect only your opinion. 45 million people uncovered by health care is shame enough for a society; to criticize universal health care is revealing of a mindset.

    30. mary said on August 20th, 2009 at 9:38am #

      Yes I was born into the NHS, and have been looked after by it. It cares for EVERYONE according to need and not according to the ability to pay. I am proud to say that I worked in it . What is it about a scheme that looks after everybody that you find so objectionable or perhaps you work for a medical or pharmaceutical company? Selflessness and not selfishness should be the watchword.

    31. balkas b b said on August 20th, 2009 at 10:50am #

      mary,
      i’d go even further and affirm that receiving healthcare and paid by all of us is an inheritance or possibly third-most important human right, after the right to live and to return to one’s habitat, regardless why one had/has left it.
      US, or its rulers, does not respect the three basic human rights. It can be concluded that the plutos wld never honor the three basic rights if people just talk; some action is needed; such as massive protests and passive resistance. tnx

    32. b99 said on August 20th, 2009 at 10:52am #

      Bob and Helmut – Large majorities of every nation that has a nationwide health service or insurance ALWAYS say they would not opt for less – NO population would adopt the US model. NONE.

      Bob – You’re bullshitting. If you don’t want the state (funded by the taxpayer) to provide for you, you’ll refuse to use drinking water treatment plants and waste water treatment plants. You’ll give up your mortgage subsidy as well. You’ll promise not to use Medicaid if you lose your income, and promise not to accept Medicare in your later years – and turn down your social security and possibly VA and GI Bill benefits.

      That less-than-fully-developed-human idea that draws on the make-believe ethos of John Wayne, the strong, silent type that does for himself is garbage. It’s a model that too many would-be men like you have followed for decades – it does not work for our society. It only works for you until the day you need assistance. Just promise you’ll go sleep under a bridge.

      PS – You dismissed the stats of where the US stands on health care in the world. I gave you the CIA factbook stats. Do you deny them? Can you argue from a position of strength knowing you are #37? Is that why you switched to the Hollywood Man defense? And of course you got the whole argument wrong by pretending anyone here was saying that single-payer was perfect. In fact, its clear by your pseudo-lecture, you (like most McCain/Bush people) don’t even understand the concept. So I’m pleased that was your last post. Maybe you could go strap on your gun now and swagger down to Town Hall.

    33. Hat said on August 20th, 2009 at 2:13pm #

      Have any of you looked at why the US is #37 and #72 in WHO … have you looked at the criteria? I have been under the health systems of Austria, Romania, and Hungary and they all lack. I know, so does the US’s! In terms of care … physical care, compassion and service to an individual in need and also access to that care in comparison to these countries mentioned we are so far advanced that it can’t be measured. Go and live there for a while and then compare.

    34. Bob said on August 20th, 2009 at 7:17pm #

      I’m sorry I can’t resist!

      B99, you made up your stat, and were you found it. The CIA world fact book doesn’t list the stat you claim. I have the site bookmarked, I’ve consulted it many times.

      You told an untruth!

      Then to compare water treatment and waste water treatment to medical care. Tisk, tisk. Besides the fact it may make sense for the government to be involved in such services, there are private water companies. Southwest Water symbol, swwc (nasdaq), being one that comes to mind.

      Do your homework, keep your unlearned opinions to yourself.

      Bob