Comments on: The Fraternity of Civilizations: Prospects for Dialogue http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/the-fraternity-of-civilizations-prospects-for-dialogue/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:07:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Maryam Sakeenah http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/the-fraternity-of-civilizations-prospects-for-dialogue/#comment-50883 Maryam Sakeenah Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:27:32 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9432#comment-50883 Embrace the bleak pessimism, shall we? Mulga, your observations are largely true. The fixity of attitudes in the West leaves us with little hope and your comment very clearly exposes the malaise. But then do we let them head us all straight to Armageddon? Or do we hold out against the babel of bigotry and zealotry in defence of justice and humanity with that lone resilient voice? I find the latter a nobler calling. I am glad you chose to conclude with what is in fact the message and the whole point of the article. I would like to re-state it here: "I suspect the best we can do is to practice friendship towards the humane elements of the West and of Islam, and try and stay out of the way of the zealots and crazies. " Precisely. Peace. Embrace the bleak pessimism, shall we?
Mulga, your observations are largely true. The fixity of attitudes in the West leaves us with little hope and your comment very clearly exposes the malaise. But then do we let them head us all straight to Armageddon? Or do we hold out against the babel of bigotry and zealotry in defence of justice and humanity with that lone resilient voice? I find the latter a nobler calling. I am glad you chose to conclude with what is in fact the message and the whole point of the article. I would like to re-state it here:
“I suspect the best we can do is to practice friendship towards the humane elements of the West and of Islam, and try and stay out of the way of the zealots and crazies. ”

Precisely.
Peace.

]]> By: Mulga Mumblebrain http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/the-fraternity-of-civilizations-prospects-for-dialogue/#comment-50821 Mulga Mumblebrain Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:45:07 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9432#comment-50821 The impossibility of this vision of global civilizations at peace with each other, and co-operating in facing the truly calamitous ecological disasters that are bearing down on us, coming to pass is, alas, clear. It will founder on two rocks, those of religious and hence civilizational supremacism, and market capitalism. While it was marvelous to see the humane and inspired words of Edward Said (is it any wonder the Judeofascists hated him so deeply?)the forces that call the shots in the West think entirely in the opposite manner. For a start, the West is dominated by Judaic money power, extending its reach through business, the media and into politics, which it controls. The Jews that exercise this unprecedented power put Israel first and last, and they dictate Western political attitudes to Islam. It is they and their functionaries, the 'neo-conservatives', the editors of the mainstream media, the Rightwing think-tanks and journals, who promulgate the 'Clash of Civilizations' thesis, that is aimed as much at China as Islam. Of course not all Jews think and act this way. Many Jews work for inter-religious understanding and amity. A majority, I am certain, would prefer to live at peace with their neighbours, but they are dragged along to acquiescence in violence and cruelty by the worst in their tribe. The Judaic power elites, in business, politics, the military and religious fundamentalism, most certainly do not believe in peaceful co-existence. In this country, the media, particularly the Murdoch sewer, are relentless in demonising, denigrating and abusing Islam, Arabs and the Palestinians in particular. Public opinion is being driven, remorselessly, towards hatred, fear and contempt for Moslems, and Rightwing Jews, both within the Murdoch structure and as guest opinion writers, lead the way. Similarly with the ABC and the other media empire Fairfax, although Fairfax occasionally allows a well-trained Moslem ( a 'house Moslem' in Malcolm X's parlance) to have a say. These outbreaks of 'even-handedness' are always answered, usually the next day, by a Judeofascist yelling abuse, whereas pieces by the Judaic Thought Police are NEVER answered by Islamic or Palestinian rejoinders. Nevertheless this small concession to Islamic opinion is ferociously attacked, in Judeofascist blogs and, no doubt, behind the scenes where power is exercised, as 'anti-Semitism' or 'sympathy for terrorism'. The local Zionists bring a steady cavalcade of Islamophobes to the country, with Likudnik hatemongers and fanatic apostates from Islam to the fore. One can only imagine the outrage that would occur if a Moslem organisation brought out David Irving or David Duke or someone of that ilk, but the double-standard, founded, as is everything else in this country, in money-power, is absolute. The prospects for inter-civilizational peace are further reduced by the existence of 'Christian Zionist' bigotry. Emanating from the brain-damaged wing of Protestantism, principally in the US but spreading its poison throughout the world through determined proselytism, it is intensely antipathetic towards Islam, and fanatically pro-Israel. Not out of any great love of Judaism or Jews, and one suspects that many of these creatures are real, and rank, anti-Semites, but out of an insane and evil desire to see the bloodshed in the Near and Middle East rise until it provokes the final battle between Good (which they risibly see themselves as representing) and Evil. In that battle the Jews are actually eviscerated, incinerated and pulverised along with the rest of us. Need one observe that the alliance between Judeofascism and 'End-times' Christian Zionism is a marriage made in Hell? When you consider the observations of many, including Uri Avnery in Israel, that these Messianic, Armaggedonist tendencies are coming to dominate the military and intelligence elites, both in Israel and the US, through the infiltration of religious fundamentalist fanatics, and, as a result, the Israelis, as evidenced in Gaza, are becoming even more brutal, more indifferent (if it was possible!) to the fate of their victims, then we ought to face facts. A depraved and debased quasi-religious Crusade is being waged against Islam, where, as the millions of deaths so far attest, Islamic life is regarded as completely worthless. When Gorbachev said he would do the US a favour and 'take away its enemy', I began to realise what a disaster he would be. Not that he had much choice. He faced a regime just as crazed, just as dominated by Apocalyptisists and End-Timers as any since-probably even more deranged than the Bush rabble. Surrendering in the Cold War saved the world, I'm pretty sure, from nuclear war. But it allowed the US the freedom to dominate the entire planet, the national project, of its hereditary ruling elites, at least, since 1776. That enabled the US and Israel to put the Zionist Plan for the Middle East, of Oded Yinon, echoed by Netanyahu et al's 'A Clean Break etc', into operation. That as we know, but thanks to the Judaic controlled Western media, the public does not know, envisaged all the Islamic countries of the Middle East split into powerless statelets along sectarian and ethnic lines, the better to ensure Israel's eternal hegemony, behind which the project for an Eretz Yisrael, cleansed of non-Jews, could proceed. The US, for doing most of Israel's dirty work, gets to control the region's hydrocarbons, and thus gets to throttle the Chinese, who, in any case, are the next target in the 'Clash of Civilizations'. Opposed to these daemonic, religiously intoxicated forces of darkness, the voices of human amity and civilizational respect have been drowned out. The capitalist West has other arguments with Islam as well, apart from the inconvenience of geography that placed the hydrocarbons that are the property of the West by dint of civilizational and racial superiority, beneath the sands of the Gulf. Islam stills bans usury, showing how primitive a religion it really is. Where, oh where, would Israel and the West be without usury? Where would Goldman-Sachs be without usury? Where the entire edifice of Western financial chicanery? Where the fortunes of Wall Street and the City? Of course Islam cannot pretend to have reformed, to have ntered the 21st century, until it not only ends its prohibition against usury, but embraces it, as has the West, as the very bedrock of market capitalism. In short I see the chances of inter-civilizational friendship and respect as nil, at least on the level of inter-state relations. The fixed attitude of the Western and Israeli elites that they represent the highest stage to which humanity has evolved, that they represent a God-ordained 'Chosen' elite of humanity and that their insatiable greed and indifference to the fate of others are virtues, not vices, will never allow it. I suspect the best we can do is to practice friendship towards the humane elements of the West and of Islam, and try and stay out of the way of the zealots and crazies. Maybe Jesus will return, and surprise us all by actually being 'The Prince of Peace' after all, and miraculously converting all the hate-filled crazies into apostles of loving kindness for all cultures, all people and all existence. The impossibility of this vision of global civilizations at peace with each other, and co-operating in facing the truly calamitous ecological disasters that are bearing down on us, coming to pass is, alas, clear. It will founder on two rocks, those of religious and hence civilizational supremacism, and market capitalism.
While it was marvelous to see the humane and inspired words of Edward Said (is it any wonder the Judeofascists hated him so deeply?)the forces that call the shots in the West think entirely in the opposite manner. For a start, the West is dominated by Judaic money power, extending its reach through business, the media and into politics, which it controls. The Jews that exercise this unprecedented power put Israel first and last, and they dictate Western political attitudes to Islam. It is they and their functionaries, the ‘neo-conservatives’, the editors of the mainstream media, the Rightwing think-tanks and journals, who promulgate the ‘Clash of Civilizations’ thesis, that is aimed as much at China as Islam.
Of course not all Jews think and act this way. Many Jews work for inter-religious understanding and amity. A majority, I am certain, would prefer to live at peace with their neighbours, but they are dragged along to acquiescence in violence and cruelty by the worst in their tribe. The Judaic power elites, in business, politics, the military and religious fundamentalism, most certainly do not believe in peaceful co-existence.
In this country, the media, particularly the Murdoch sewer, are relentless in demonising, denigrating and abusing Islam, Arabs and the Palestinians in particular. Public opinion is being driven, remorselessly, towards hatred, fear and contempt for Moslems, and Rightwing Jews, both within the Murdoch structure and as guest opinion writers, lead the way. Similarly with the ABC and the other media empire Fairfax, although Fairfax occasionally allows a well-trained Moslem ( a ‘house Moslem’ in Malcolm X’s parlance) to have a say. These outbreaks of ‘even-handedness’ are always answered, usually the next day, by a Judeofascist yelling abuse, whereas pieces by the Judaic Thought Police are NEVER answered by Islamic or Palestinian rejoinders. Nevertheless this small concession to Islamic opinion is ferociously attacked, in Judeofascist blogs and, no doubt, behind the scenes where power is exercised, as ‘anti-Semitism’ or ‘sympathy for terrorism’.
The local Zionists bring a steady cavalcade of Islamophobes to the country, with Likudnik hatemongers and fanatic apostates from Islam to the fore. One can only imagine the outrage that would occur if a Moslem organisation brought out David Irving or David Duke or someone of that ilk, but the double-standard, founded, as is everything else in this country, in money-power, is absolute.
The prospects for inter-civilizational peace are further reduced by the existence of ‘Christian Zionist’ bigotry. Emanating from the brain-damaged wing of Protestantism, principally in the US but spreading its poison throughout the world through determined proselytism, it is intensely antipathetic towards Islam, and fanatically pro-Israel. Not out of any great love of Judaism or Jews, and one suspects that many of these creatures are real, and rank, anti-Semites, but out of an insane and evil desire to see the bloodshed in the Near and Middle East rise until it provokes the final battle between Good (which they risibly see themselves as representing) and Evil. In that battle the Jews are actually eviscerated, incinerated and pulverised along with the rest of us.
Need one observe that the alliance between Judeofascism and ‘End-times’ Christian Zionism is a marriage made in Hell? When you consider the observations of many, including Uri Avnery in Israel, that these Messianic, Armaggedonist tendencies are coming to dominate the military and intelligence elites, both in Israel and the US, through the infiltration of religious fundamentalist fanatics, and, as a result, the Israelis, as evidenced in Gaza, are becoming even more brutal, more indifferent (if it was possible!) to the fate of their victims, then we ought to face facts. A depraved and debased quasi-religious Crusade is being waged against Islam, where, as the millions of deaths so far attest, Islamic life is regarded as completely worthless.
When Gorbachev said he would do the US a favour and ‘take away its enemy’, I began to realise what a disaster he would be. Not that he had much choice. He faced a regime just as crazed, just as dominated by Apocalyptisists and End-Timers as any since-probably even more deranged than the Bush rabble. Surrendering in the Cold War saved the world, I’m pretty sure, from nuclear war. But it allowed the US the freedom to dominate the entire planet, the national project, of its hereditary ruling elites, at least, since 1776. That enabled the US and Israel to put the Zionist Plan for the Middle East, of Oded Yinon, echoed by Netanyahu et al’s ‘A Clean Break etc’, into operation. That as we know, but thanks to the Judaic controlled Western media, the public does not know, envisaged all the Islamic countries of the Middle East split into powerless statelets along sectarian and ethnic lines, the better to ensure Israel’s eternal hegemony, behind which the project for an Eretz Yisrael, cleansed of non-Jews, could proceed. The US, for doing most of Israel’s dirty work, gets to control the region’s hydrocarbons, and thus gets to throttle the Chinese, who, in any case, are the next target in the ‘Clash of Civilizations’.
Opposed to these daemonic, religiously intoxicated forces of darkness, the voices of human amity and civilizational respect have been drowned out. The capitalist West has other arguments with Islam as well, apart from the inconvenience of geography that placed the hydrocarbons that are the property of the West by dint of civilizational and racial superiority, beneath the sands of the Gulf. Islam stills bans usury, showing how primitive a religion it really is. Where, oh where, would Israel and the West be without usury? Where would Goldman-Sachs be without usury? Where the entire edifice of Western financial chicanery? Where the fortunes of Wall Street and the City? Of course Islam cannot pretend to have reformed, to have ntered the 21st century, until it not only ends its prohibition against usury, but embraces it, as has the West, as the very bedrock of market capitalism.
In short I see the chances of inter-civilizational friendship and respect as nil, at least on the level of inter-state relations. The fixed attitude of the Western and Israeli elites that they represent the highest stage to which humanity has evolved, that they represent a God-ordained ‘Chosen’ elite of humanity and that their insatiable greed and indifference to the fate of others are virtues, not vices, will never allow it. I suspect the best we can do is to practice friendship towards the humane elements of the West and of Islam, and try and stay out of the way of the zealots and crazies. Maybe Jesus will return, and surprise us all by actually being ‘The Prince of Peace’ after all, and miraculously converting all the hate-filled crazies into apostles of loving kindness for all cultures, all people and all existence.

]]> By: B99 http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/the-fraternity-of-civilizations-prospects-for-dialogue/#comment-50801 B99 Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:05:33 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9432#comment-50801 Bozh - Mosheism? Already a step backward from Sakeenah's message. Bozh – Mosheism? Already a step backward from Sakeenah’s message.

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/the-fraternity-of-civilizations-prospects-for-dialogue/#comment-50791 bozh Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:28:35 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9432#comment-50791 but islam is structured like an army; just like christianity, mosheism, and judaism. in mosheism and judaism only men can be priests. And until very recently, only men were priest in christian churches. Jesus self accepted only men for his apostles. all of these four 'religions' are full of promises, condemnations, intolerance, hatred, anger, etc. and neither of the three 'gods' speak to each other. True, islam is not as bad as mosheism or judaism, but is also full of vacuities and contradictions. tnx but islam is structured like an army; just like christianity, mosheism, and judaism.
in mosheism and judaism only men can be priests. And until very recently, only men were priest in christian churches.
Jesus self accepted only men for his apostles.

all of these four ‘religions’ are full of promises, condemnations, intolerance, hatred, anger, etc.
and neither of the three ‘gods’ speak to each other. True, islam is not as bad as mosheism or judaism, but is also full of vacuities and contradictions.
tnx

]]> By: Taz http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/the-fraternity-of-civilizations-prospects-for-dialogue/#comment-50783 Taz Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:50:56 +0000 http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9432#comment-50783 A wonderful article. A wonderful article.

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