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	<title>Comments on: Evaluating Decisions and the Long Term Perspective</title>
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	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/evaluating-decisions-and-the-long-term-perspective/#comment-50930</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9453#comment-50930</guid>
		<description>Instead governments are retreating to feckless “cap-and-trade”, a minor tweak to
business-as-usual. Oil companies are so relieved to realize that they do not need to learn to be
energy companies that they are decreasing their already trivial investments in renewable energy.
They are using the money to buy greenwash advertisements. Perhaps if politicians and
businesses paint each other green, it will not seem so bad when our forests burn.
Cap-and-trade is the temple of doom. It would lock in disasters for our children and
grandchildren. Why do people continue to worship a disastrous approach? Its fecklessness was
proven by the Kyoto Protocol. It took a decade to implement the treaty, as countries extracted
concessions that weakened even mild goals. Most countries that claim to have met their
obligations actually increased their emissions. Others found that even modest reductions of
emissions were inconvenient, and thus they simply ignored their goals.
Why is this cap-and-trade temple of doom worshipped? The 648 page cap-and-trade
monstrosity that is being foisted on the U.S. Congress provides the answer. Not a single
Congressperson has read it. They don’t need to – they just need to add more paragraphs to
support their own special interests. By the way, the Congress people do not write most of those
paragraphs – they are “suggested” by people in alligator shoes.
The only defense of this monstrous absurdity that I have heard is “well, you are right, it’s
no good, but the train has left the station”. If the train has left, it had better be derailed soon or
the planet, and all of us, will be in deep do-do.  James Hansen

     So is the only thing we can do is worship at the temple of doom?  Why is cap and trade a monstrous absurdity and why is it the best they can do?  We could write a million words on why the reason is easy to understand it&#039;s no great mystery.  Am I going to worship at the temple of doom?  No I am sure not and I will keep trying. To not try means I am no better than these people who tell me to worship at the temple of doom a place I am not going thank you. First we have the climate bill in the Senate a joke on the human race a monstrous absurdity then Denmark more illusion and we will be told see we are trying?  To try is a tad bit harder than we are told now isn&#039;t it.  People of Earth we are in deep do do could be helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Instead governments are retreating to feckless “cap-and-trade”, a minor tweak to<br />
business-as-usual. Oil companies are so relieved to realize that they do not need to learn to be<br />
energy companies that they are decreasing their already trivial investments in renewable energy.<br />
They are using the money to buy greenwash advertisements. Perhaps if politicians and<br />
businesses paint each other green, it will not seem so bad when our forests burn.<br />
Cap-and-trade is the temple of doom. It would lock in disasters for our children and<br />
grandchildren. Why do people continue to worship a disastrous approach? Its fecklessness was<br />
proven by the Kyoto Protocol. It took a decade to implement the treaty, as countries extracted<br />
concessions that weakened even mild goals. Most countries that claim to have met their<br />
obligations actually increased their emissions. Others found that even modest reductions of<br />
emissions were inconvenient, and thus they simply ignored their goals.<br />
Why is this cap-and-trade temple of doom worshipped? The 648 page cap-and-trade<br />
monstrosity that is being foisted on the U.S. Congress provides the answer. Not a single<br />
Congressperson has read it. They don’t need to – they just need to add more paragraphs to<br />
support their own special interests. By the way, the Congress people do not write most of those<br />
paragraphs – they are “suggested” by people in alligator shoes.<br />
The only defense of this monstrous absurdity that I have heard is “well, you are right, it’s<br />
no good, but the train has left the station”. If the train has left, it had better be derailed soon or<br />
the planet, and all of us, will be in deep do-do.  James Hansen</p>
<p>     So is the only thing we can do is worship at the temple of doom?  Why is cap and trade a monstrous absurdity and why is it the best they can do?  We could write a million words on why the reason is easy to understand it&#8217;s no great mystery.  Am I going to worship at the temple of doom?  No I am sure not and I will keep trying. To not try means I am no better than these people who tell me to worship at the temple of doom a place I am not going thank you. First we have the climate bill in the Senate a joke on the human race a monstrous absurdity then Denmark more illusion and we will be told see we are trying?  To try is a tad bit harder than we are told now isn&#8217;t it.  People of Earth we are in deep do do could be helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: lichen</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/evaluating-decisions-and-the-long-term-perspective/#comment-50917</link>
		<dc:creator>lichen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9453#comment-50917</guid>
		<description>Actually, it is better to do nothing, as a human - to not take up a &quot;productive endeavour&quot; since 9 times out of 10 that ends up being an extremely destructive one that is leading us all to ruin - to not drive your car, to not eat meat, to not waste or improperly divert water, to not raise more than one child,  to not use or produce pesticides, plastics, oil...  &quot;Productivity&quot; and &quot;growth&quot; are the problem; &quot;hard work&quot; is the problem.  

The sheer scale at which we are heading for serious disaster is extreme; the misuse, the outright robbing of water from irreplaceable, nearly exhausted rivers and aquifers threatens our entire planet; to give a popular example for this website, Israel diverts the Jordan river to it&#039;s massive rows of hundreds-thousands of greenhouses, stealing water from Palestine and other nearbye nations not to feed itself, but to export fruits and vegetables to Europe for profit.  Our planet could turn out looking like Venus; and if you look at pictures of the alberta tar sands and virginia&#039;s exploded mountains, you&#039;ll see that it has already begun.   The fish have been killed to exhaustion in the oceans, the corals are dying out; the forests are shrinking and shrinking, the human population is growing bigger, wiping out other essential species; mowing down the rainforests for palm-oil monocultures and places for cows to gorge themselves. 

Yes, Don, the northwest passage will open and then the methanic permafrost will begin to melt and it will be the end of ships, the end of travel, the likely end of humanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, it is better to do nothing, as a human &#8211; to not take up a &#8220;productive endeavour&#8221; since 9 times out of 10 that ends up being an extremely destructive one that is leading us all to ruin &#8211; to not drive your car, to not eat meat, to not waste or improperly divert water, to not raise more than one child,  to not use or produce pesticides, plastics, oil&#8230;  &#8220;Productivity&#8221; and &#8220;growth&#8221; are the problem; &#8220;hard work&#8221; is the problem.  </p>
<p>The sheer scale at which we are heading for serious disaster is extreme; the misuse, the outright robbing of water from irreplaceable, nearly exhausted rivers and aquifers threatens our entire planet; to give a popular example for this website, Israel diverts the Jordan river to it&#8217;s massive rows of hundreds-thousands of greenhouses, stealing water from Palestine and other nearbye nations not to feed itself, but to export fruits and vegetables to Europe for profit.  Our planet could turn out looking like Venus; and if you look at pictures of the alberta tar sands and virginia&#8217;s exploded mountains, you&#8217;ll see that it has already begun.   The fish have been killed to exhaustion in the oceans, the corals are dying out; the forests are shrinking and shrinking, the human population is growing bigger, wiping out other essential species; mowing down the rainforests for palm-oil monocultures and places for cows to gorge themselves. </p>
<p>Yes, Don, the northwest passage will open and then the methanic permafrost will begin to melt and it will be the end of ships, the end of travel, the likely end of humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/evaluating-decisions-and-the-long-term-perspective/#comment-50911</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 23:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9453#comment-50911</guid>
		<description>http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png

   2007 was record ice melt and look where we are all going.  The Northwest passage will be again open and just think in a few years we can go up there to get the oil, gas and gold.  What would Wall Street want to do?  Go get the oil and gas and gold.  Profit.  Yikes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png" rel="nofollow">http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png</a></p>
<p>   2007 was record ice melt and look where we are all going.  The Northwest passage will be again open and just think in a few years we can go up there to get the oil, gas and gold.  What would Wall Street want to do?  Go get the oil and gas and gold.  Profit.  Yikes</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/evaluating-decisions-and-the-long-term-perspective/#comment-50905</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9453#comment-50905</guid>
		<description>David there is still time but not on the path we see now.  It should be a total focus to leave the  fossil fuels in the ground.  Total focus.  So far our so called leaders seem to be blind.  I can&#039;t see I can&#039;t see.  Well open your eye&#039;s.   Simple</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David there is still time but not on the path we see now.  It should be a total focus to leave the  fossil fuels in the ground.  Total focus.  So far our so called leaders seem to be blind.  I can&#8217;t see I can&#8217;t see.  Well open your eye&#8217;s.   Simple</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Melissa</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/evaluating-decisions-and-the-long-term-perspective/#comment-50904</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9453#comment-50904</guid>
		<description>I really appreciate this article.

Getting out of denial and working towards sustainable, pared down life requires a willingness to assume personal responsibility, and the real labor that follows.  That has been a very difficult hurdle to overcome in my community.  There is a mantra of helplessness to overcome, as well as a mantra of entitlement to others fruits of labor.  

We have to stop making excuses for people who avoid productive endeavors, whether they are at the &quot;top&quot; of the chain, or the &quot;bottom&quot;.  Enabling takers is only making the mantras more entrenched.   There is no broad swath, only case by case basis.  There is plenty of non-paid work to be done, and only some of us do it while others are idle.  We have created some real parasites in ALL CLASSES.

I believe this should be a part of the long-term thinking. 

Peace, Resistance, Hope,
Melissa</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really appreciate this article.</p>
<p>Getting out of denial and working towards sustainable, pared down life requires a willingness to assume personal responsibility, and the real labor that follows.  That has been a very difficult hurdle to overcome in my community.  There is a mantra of helplessness to overcome, as well as a mantra of entitlement to others fruits of labor.  </p>
<p>We have to stop making excuses for people who avoid productive endeavors, whether they are at the &#8220;top&#8221; of the chain, or the &#8220;bottom&#8221;.  Enabling takers is only making the mantras more entrenched.   There is no broad swath, only case by case basis.  There is plenty of non-paid work to be done, and only some of us do it while others are idle.  We have created some real parasites in ALL CLASSES.</p>
<p>I believe this should be a part of the long-term thinking. </p>
<p>Peace, Resistance, Hope,<br />
Melissa</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/evaluating-decisions-and-the-long-term-perspective/#comment-50900</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9453#comment-50900</guid>
		<description>Mr. Brumm:

There is a fourth consideration. How do you suggest that we motivate a sufficient number of people on this planet to embrace long-term thinking? (Even by using the Pareto 80-20 rule, this would involve over 140 million people!)

And, as a fifth consideration, how do you suggest that we train a sufficient number of people to guide us toward long-term sustainability?

And, a sixth. Is there enough time?

For every thing that you choose to do on a planet-wide (or even a community-wide) scale, the number of variables and their attendant impacts is enormous. This vast complexity is why people embrace short-term thinking or simply let someone else make their decisions for them.

Only by returning to a more simple lifestyle will we survive as a species. But, of course, doing this, too, involves an imponderable number of variables as well. No need to worry, though. Mother Nature will make this decision for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Brumm:</p>
<p>There is a fourth consideration. How do you suggest that we motivate a sufficient number of people on this planet to embrace long-term thinking? (Even by using the Pareto 80-20 rule, this would involve over 140 million people!)</p>
<p>And, as a fifth consideration, how do you suggest that we train a sufficient number of people to guide us toward long-term sustainability?</p>
<p>And, a sixth. Is there enough time?</p>
<p>For every thing that you choose to do on a planet-wide (or even a community-wide) scale, the number of variables and their attendant impacts is enormous. This vast complexity is why people embrace short-term thinking or simply let someone else make their decisions for them.</p>
<p>Only by returning to a more simple lifestyle will we survive as a species. But, of course, doing this, too, involves an imponderable number of variables as well. No need to worry, though. Mother Nature will make this decision for us.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/evaluating-decisions-and-the-long-term-perspective/#comment-50891</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9453#comment-50891</guid>
		<description>When it comes to facing the fact that we are rapidly approaching peak oil and a post-carbon world, that our environment is degrading faster than it can repair itself, that our obsession on growth and profit is unsustainable, for a long time we have been collectively sticking our fingers in our ears and singing, la, la, la…


    And the new thing is and they will get better at it is not la la la but keep taking COPE and listen to your leaders and take more COPE.  The climate change bill called cap and trade is called la la la and so far not even illusion of knowledge.  It will not pass and we are told because it will hurt the little people the average Joe and Jane. Forget la la la they know we can&#039;t do a damn thing about what the deciders decide.  Cap and trade will not work but it&#039;s the best they can do kind of a lack of will wouldn&#039;t you say.  Has the decision been made to not try?  They the deciders know how serious the problem is yes they know and they also know what it will take to try and slow the problem.  So why is it that they tell us don&#039;t worry we are in control of an out of control system and just take more COPE. Because they are wimp&#039;s and not only lack will but gut&#039;s but they do dress nice and they know we can&#039;t do a damn thing about what they decide. Granted a large rock could hit the Earth at 60,000 mph and there is not a damn thing we could do about it as the people looking for those rock&#039;s only number about 15 people Worldwide and no systems in place to stop one because it doesn&#039;t make something called profit. I guess we need more bombs and missiles for war as all the nuclear weapons we have enough to destroy every human on the Earth three times over is still not enough and let&#039;s not forget profit.  Yes we need more cars but not new energy sources or people keeping an eye on those rock&#039;s just make more hamburgers and super size those fries we are talking profit.  It appears these so called leaders elites in charge of what we are suppose to think and how we are to act don&#039;t even bother to bullshit us anymore and remember take your COPE. Now we get our COPE from the health clinic and on the street and the so called leaders, elite&#039;s get there COPE from us the little people and that private doctor who works for profit.  I think the COPE they get from us the little people is very powerful and very addictive and they will do anything to keep a supply on hand and don&#039;t even bullshit us anymore on what they are doing. What do you think for a long time we have been collectively sticking our fingers in our ears and singing, la, la, la…  Two million to start Capital one voice calm at peace still time or maybe it&#039;s just better to listen to the wimp&#039;s who lack will and gut&#039;s and take our COPE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it comes to facing the fact that we are rapidly approaching peak oil and a post-carbon world, that our environment is degrading faster than it can repair itself, that our obsession on growth and profit is unsustainable, for a long time we have been collectively sticking our fingers in our ears and singing, la, la, la…</p>
<p>    And the new thing is and they will get better at it is not la la la but keep taking COPE and listen to your leaders and take more COPE.  The climate change bill called cap and trade is called la la la and so far not even illusion of knowledge.  It will not pass and we are told because it will hurt the little people the average Joe and Jane. Forget la la la they know we can&#8217;t do a damn thing about what the deciders decide.  Cap and trade will not work but it&#8217;s the best they can do kind of a lack of will wouldn&#8217;t you say.  Has the decision been made to not try?  They the deciders know how serious the problem is yes they know and they also know what it will take to try and slow the problem.  So why is it that they tell us don&#8217;t worry we are in control of an out of control system and just take more COPE. Because they are wimp&#8217;s and not only lack will but gut&#8217;s but they do dress nice and they know we can&#8217;t do a damn thing about what they decide. Granted a large rock could hit the Earth at 60,000 mph and there is not a damn thing we could do about it as the people looking for those rock&#8217;s only number about 15 people Worldwide and no systems in place to stop one because it doesn&#8217;t make something called profit. I guess we need more bombs and missiles for war as all the nuclear weapons we have enough to destroy every human on the Earth three times over is still not enough and let&#8217;s not forget profit.  Yes we need more cars but not new energy sources or people keeping an eye on those rock&#8217;s just make more hamburgers and super size those fries we are talking profit.  It appears these so called leaders elites in charge of what we are suppose to think and how we are to act don&#8217;t even bother to bullshit us anymore and remember take your COPE. Now we get our COPE from the health clinic and on the street and the so called leaders, elite&#8217;s get there COPE from us the little people and that private doctor who works for profit.  I think the COPE they get from us the little people is very powerful and very addictive and they will do anything to keep a supply on hand and don&#8217;t even bullshit us anymore on what they are doing. What do you think for a long time we have been collectively sticking our fingers in our ears and singing, la, la, la…  Two million to start Capital one voice calm at peace still time or maybe it&#8217;s just better to listen to the wimp&#8217;s who lack will and gut&#8217;s and take our COPE.</p>
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		<title>By: kalidas</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/evaluating-decisions-and-the-long-term-perspective/#comment-50885</link>
		<dc:creator>kalidas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9453#comment-50885</guid>
		<description>&quot;A society of cheaters and the cheated.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A society of cheaters and the cheated.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: bozh</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/07/evaluating-decisions-and-the-long-term-perspective/#comment-50867</link>
		<dc:creator>bozh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dissidentvoice.org/?p=9453#comment-50867</guid>
		<description>jim brumm, well said,
politicos and priests  need dummies desperately.
doctors need sick people to make an excellent living.
pharmaceutical industry need sick  &#039;believers&#039;  in order to make a good living
media, entertaiment, military, teachers, professsors, advertisers also need dummies desperately.

steps are taken to ensure that they become dummies [note: not are but became].
then, everything is great in america, including america. And you are sick, unhappy, poor, etc., are you? 
to bad! You are lazy, unmotivated; you want s&#039;mthing for nothing.
well, that&#039;s not how america achieved greatness.
so, stop complaining or move to s&#039;mwhere else. tnx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jim brumm, well said,<br />
politicos and priests  need dummies desperately.<br />
doctors need sick people to make an excellent living.<br />
pharmaceutical industry need sick  &#8216;believers&#8217;  in order to make a good living<br />
media, entertaiment, military, teachers, professsors, advertisers also need dummies desperately.</p>
<p>steps are taken to ensure that they become dummies [note: not are but became].<br />
then, everything is great in america, including america. And you are sick, unhappy, poor, etc., are you?<br />
to bad! You are lazy, unmotivated; you want s&#8217;mthing for nothing.<br />
well, that&#8217;s not how america achieved greatness.<br />
so, stop complaining or move to s&#8217;mwhere else. tnx</p>
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