It is only “Libertarian” movement that will take on the Banksters and allow America to be a FREE, one more time, a FREE Nation. Ron Paul reaches across all political boundries and is the only candidate of Peace and Prosperity in all of America.

There are libertartian Georgists; as there are libertarian Socialists and Capitalists. There are anarchists who consider themselves capitalists and others socialists and still other see the genius of George.

Paul is a capitalist liberterian of the more conservative sort who happens to agree with many on the so-called left regarding the US imperialist foreign policies.

The world is not black and white, dan e. Like Deadbeat, discernment is critical and something it seems each of you could use more of.

When you call someone a zionist because they think energy, resources and specifically oil is central to an empire such as the US…you’ve lost all perspective. Petras seems to think oil was not the reason for the invasion of Iraq. I can disagree with him, think that that is wrong headed in many respects (tho not all) and in no way does that align my thinking to “zionism”. There is something pathological about a thought process that concludes that to disagree with Petras is to be a zionist.

I don’t know if you get that given what you and Deadbeat seem bent on “proving”.

Where do you get you notions? Like “you first started posting to DV you consistently defended pro-Zionist/pro-Israel positions, and attacked those who quoted Petras and Blankfort.”

Does critiquing Petras make one a “Zionist”?

You only partly understand Henry George. George is NOT a Capitalist. If you don’t get that you don’t get Henry George. (I’ve never heard Ron Paul talk about Henry George as his economic model…have you?)

Do I read you wrong? You are saying that the US Constitution and free enterprise are reactionary? Against whom are they reactionary?

Against the present socialist fascist trend that Americans can borrow as much as they can from communist countries and other investors to maintain their elitist parties way of consumerism and perpetual wars?

Please enlighten me, maybe I’ve missed something

So I was disappointed to find that having abandoned Zionism did not mean that you had abandoned rightwing reactionary ideology entirely. To me you are a strange contradictory phenomenon, capable of sounding quite intelligent at times, but also capable of trying to peddle an utterly stupid pile of reactionary capitalist nonsense like “henrygeorge-ism”.

Henry George’s ideas, like those of Adam Smith and Ron Paul’s hero Von Mises, are openly pro-capitalistsystem, pro-Capitalist Class ideas. Writing in 1776, Smith’s advocacy of capitalist mythology (”the invisible hand”, etc) had a historically progressive character as a challenge to the then hegemonic Feudal ideological formations. But today in 2009, all these ideas are totally reactionary, and to advocate them is to participate in the oppression of the vast majority by the utterly ruthless tiny minority.
Moral: you’ve made some progress, Max, but you have a ways to go. If you are sincere, you’ll go back to the drawing board and find yourself a sounder intellectual foundation.
(mutter mutter… henry george for crysache, is he serious?)

Ron Paul has been the only constitution concerned candidate running for the presidency in sometime. The reason he ran as a Republican is because he learned that running as an independent, as he did previously, he received NO coverage by the bought and paid for corporate media.

His 2008 run was to bring the US Constitution back into the debate, he did that, not as successfully as he hoped, but more successfully than he could imagine.

The socialists and progressives who voted for the Democrat, the other head of the two headed monster, think that all will be fine now that Obama has to talk to the corporate interests rather than a Bush. If you haven’t noticed Obama is sucking up to Wall Street hard and also the War Party. You that voted for him have been duped, he listens to them before he ever will listen to you.

The whole reason our founders wrote the Constitution was so the people were somewhat protected from the excessives of powerful interests. US Government was not meant to feed the poor or the lazy, it is up to the people, in their individual generosity to do so.

Government, as we have now, under the Obama administration has dumped trillions of borrowed money into the fatcat laps, and we have received nothing, nor will we other than an IOU.

If we followed the Constitution none of this wealth redistribution to the fatcats would have happened. The progressives and socialists are offered a bone and gladly take it, thankful for the pittance, while the masters take the cow.

If you don’t believe in the Constitution, then let your chains rest lightly upon your shoulders.

The left is more organized and has higher numbers than they; Nader came in third place in 2008, not the libertarians, who also failed to make a dent in the grotesque republican primary. If everyone could unite for widespread electoral reform, we could all have our own viable parties, and the resulting government would be to the left of the libertarians. We have our own politicians, parties, and movements that are anti-empire as well as boldly demanding social and economic justice; so anyone who chooses ron paul does so because they really believe in his right wing bs.

I won’t waste words by going through your points because you’ve made no cogent argument worthy of rebuttal.

I will address your “thesis” of “oil”. I would ask that you look back to the early 1970s to understand what happened in the Middle East and OPEC and what the US did in retaliation. The Middle East had been part of a number of empires not least of which was the British Empire who transformed the region into a variety of nation-states. The hand-off to the US/FDR put the US squarely in the midst of the oil rich region where deals were cut with brutal shahs and “kings”; where the USD became the coin of the realm for purchasing oil.

But in the 70s the Arabs had had it with the US bully. It pushed the “oil” button by dramatically increasing prices; and the US retataliated with a “food” offense to starve the third world, and ultimately control trade agreements and food sourcing. It has been that way ever since.

Food for oil is the policy. You must live in a cave DB not to understand the power of oil; and how it runs the empire. But for you this is all “obfiscation”. What a silly and useless word to toss out when you have no argument. It’s like your buddy dan e calling people zionists when he can’t come up with a sane and rational argument. It’s a bullying tactic. You make a good imperial citizen Deadbeat.

You people are so use to getting up someone elses ass and sucking off the government that you could not live without it.

I pity your sorry asses, because when government fails you dumb bitches are going to be lining up for the cattle cars

in my experience, some people or even most are solely interested in politics.
but in narrowest view posssible. To them warfare, being disnformed, healthcare are detached events not only from one another but also politics.
and if they talk about politics, they think about how a pol talks, looks, behaves, what he says., etc.
and if one wld talk about necessity of doing away with WMD, some will say, Stop talking about politics! Other wld say that WMD prevent wars! and subject is closed.
clearly, they have such ans such knowledge. And one get’s this ‘knowledge’ – that they are even willing to go to war for- from their ‘educators’ : media, pols, polls, movies, army echelons, ‘educators’, et al.
and we all know that each of us had at least once in one’s life false knowledge and hated to be considered stupid or ignorant.

now, the question arises, how are we going to make them give up on their ‘knowledge’?
one way is to talk to them and write for them; preferably, in english that a 10 yr-old uses and not the language of petras, zinn, obama, chomsky.

So the “LEFT” are to blame for why millions of (supposedly non “LEFTIST”) people were marginalized, brutalized or ignored while USA Inc went to war? And when a much smaller number of Ron Paul bake sale lunatics (organized with the help of corporations/corporate media) get the official “dissident” attention, it is this “LEFT” that offered no alternative for these fuckwits to turn? Even though very few of these kunts protested the war to begin with? WOW!

Your definition of “LEFT” has been offered once but could you please describe it again? Or just qualify this mess because it’s insane unless you miswrote…

”If people have to seek out “Libertarian [Capitalism]” solutions to war and peace then it is obvious that no other message or “ideas” are getting out to the people. Then the question is WHY are those ideas being suppressed or not getting out. Then one has to looks at the FAILURES of the LEFT for its inability to get its ideas out to people”

I disagree. Barry is right. Because the U.S. is the “vanguard of capitalism” it was able to bribe the working class for years. This crisis is unraveling that bribery but is still has a way go. Some of this was predicted years ago but Barry is touching on a reason why the Left has been IMO drifting away from Marxist-like analysis and offered up this “U.S. Imperialism” explanation of everything. Unfortunately this Chomskyite approach has IMO left the Left unprepared and atomized and unable to be in a position to do the necessary outreach that could help explain the current crisis to working people and win them over. This is why people like Ron Paul has such “appeal” and why this thread of discussion has been quite active and contentious.

The reason the left fails to get its message out is that the US is the vanguard of capitalism, capitalism is dynamic and seductive, capitalists control the mass media, the educational system, the health system, the government at all scales, and virtually all other institutions of note – as one would expect in a nation that is the vanguard of capitalism.

Thank you Barry99 for that summation. It is why we need a Marxist analysis more than ever. The Left has also been drifting if not outright rejecting Marxism for decades. The only way that the “vanguard of capitalism” can be neutralized is with an opposing force that scares the crap out of it. Therein lies Marxism. Marxism doesn’t try to put capital on an equal footing with labor. (Which of course Henry George did with his ideology). Capital must become SUBORDINATE to labor. That is the core of Marxism.

Deadbeat, it is NOT the “left” that needs to form “organization and solidarity” with workers. Such a notion is elitist.

As I stated Max you need a thesaurus. How is it elitist for the Left to build solidarity among the working class. Solidarity is NOT about “leading” the working class. Solidarity is about aligning oneself with the interest of the working class and offering the working class support and most importantly building TRUST. Clearly the Left has been these past 30 years doing the opposite of building trust. In fact I’d argue the Left has been rather deceptive and deceitful. Clearly not in the way of building trust.

In your postings for months on end, you treat a “left” as if it is some professorial order that is monolithically of a single-mind, all humming the praises of Noam Chomsky, as they sit at his feet.

In fact, Max, that Left has behaved as you just described. I couldn’t have stated any more succinctly as you just did.

This is not only a caricature, it is utterly absurd. Basing your arguments on a anachronistic notion of Marxism and this wild cartoon you call the “left” makes your arguments exceptionlly weak.

Unfortunately Max it is not a “caricature” but fact. I’ve have posted a link to Jeffery Blankfort and referenced Dr. James Petras. who share similar criticism. You offer NO other references to support your defense of the Left. Can you say “WAR FOR OIL”, Maxie-pooh! Can you say the “COLLAPSE OF THE ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT” in order to conceal the influence of Zionism upon U.S. foreign policy.

You seem to want to goad a group you call the “left” into building a movement in the collapsing empire (the latter you seem to deny). I’m not sure why you even care about the “left” when you seem to deny that the USA is an imperial empire. That what it [the empire] does abroad it does here as well. That the inequalities and injustices here are due to this preditory imperial system.

Max you are JOKE. You are clearly a Chomskyite who wants to simplify all issues as “U.S. Imperialism”. The U.S. Imperialism(TM) explanation did a very good job to conceal the rising influence of the racist ideology on Zionism within the United States.

The raising inequalities and injustices has to do with CAPITALISM, MILITARISM, AND RACISM which is world wide and not merely isolated to the U.S. Chomskyites such as YOU Max aim is to obfuscate these aspects and especially try to disparage Marxism along the way.

It is for these reasons, DB, that I question your motives. You speak about a Marxism and worker solidarity on the one hand, but seem to see little displeasure at the American industrial corporate imperial system.

Max I don’t use “corporatism” to obfuscate or “imperialism” to obfuscate. You and Chomsky are master at doing that. You’ve been here on DV trying to tell people that “ideology” doesn’t matter. How the hell can you organize people WITHOUT ideology; without a vision and without goals. Yet you want to sell people on the nonsensical Henry George land tax that was discredited over a century ago. In fact Max your first appearance on DV was in DEFENSE of “little Israel” and the “impossibility” of its influencing big bad U.S. foreign policy. Which is CLEARLY a Chomskyite position.

You are aghast at racism and Zionism, but never want to consider them as symtomatic of the very essence of imperial power, control and hegemony. You deny history at every turn.

Please MAX you are out to lunch. Marxism and its critique of Capitalism clearly examined this well before both you and I were born. So to make such a statement is a reflection of your own irrationality.

In other words, your arguments are not only weak they seem to be so narrow as to dismiss the entire spectrum of American legacy as it was launched from the European legacy.

Seeing how you are coming off Max I know I struck a nerve meaning I was able to make POWERFUL arguments in my prior rejoinders. I clearly blew you out of the water with my statement about how ridiculous your past argument have been here on DV especially about ideology which you using some semantic gymnastics turned into appeal. In order to have appeal you need OUTREACH.

[you]dismiss the entire spectrum of American legacy as it was launched from the European legacy

ROTFLMAO. Max stop you are leaving me in stitches. I think I have addressed White Supremacy and Zionism much more than you.

With these limitations, DB, your comments about Henry George and ideology are just vapid and meaningless.

HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHA. Max you are JOKE!!!

One important point Max. I responded to ALL of your remarks IN CONTEXT do you think you can do the same? I don’t think so.

DB

http://thomaspainescorner.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/i-thomas-paine-two-hundred-years-hence/

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDqDvbgeXM&feature=related

Has he recently changed his position on this issue?