I agree. But I don’t think the idea of PAIN is a good recruiting tool. Do you?

It’s Left revival time. And it must be sexy. And intellectual. And Spiritual. And WINable.

Right back when my paycheck earning interval is over.

Brian, I actually enjoyed your responses but it’s late. Back Monday. The weekend for DC restaurant managers is exhausting.

But there will be a response.

However, if you peak in, what do you (and many DV comment givers mean by the “Left?”)

There seems a hostility. Are you not on the “Left?” And if not, where do your political passions reside? Are you neutral on A Moving Train?

I’m not judging one way or another. I’m just curious.

does revolt mean 50-100 mns hitting the streets in peaceful marches demanding US not wage any more wars or end the ones now underway?
and if that doesn’t suffice call on a general strike!

we’ve protested in canada; unfortunately, only 1% [or fewer] of people show up at our well-organized marches. we demand and demand and demand but harper says, What, 1% of my people demand i pull our troops out of afgh’n.
and you know the rest.
tnx

as for not making serious demands, please name a serious demand that we are not demanding from the ruling class.
stopwar.ca, opposes solving int’l disputes by warfare. i do too. now, that is the most serious demand we cld make.

of course, much of the Left in US may be equated with a stance tad left of O, who may be tad right of franco, marcos, and tad left of hitler.
the fact that nader got only about 660T votes proves that the Left in US is way to small at this time. tnx

I haven’t a clue what you are trying to communicate to me. It was Brian Koontz who made the observations that I am in agreement with. Perhaps you should address your remarks to Brian and then I might understand what you are trying to say.

i did state on at least one occasion that i owe my existence to the darkest blacks; had they not adopted to scorching sun and acquired black skin to fend off cancer, i nor you wld be here, i think.

not only that i deeply abhor meritocracy, i also reject leaving school kids behind, which is what happens when kids are graded.
the grading and leaving kids and adults behind started millennia ago, ostensibly to imrove our lot while in reality the aim as always to divide us and rule over us.

the grading had been instituted also because the ruling class thought of us as lazy, stupid, unmotivated, unruly; needing its ‘tender/loving care/shove’, or else the world wld come to an end.

the same crowd ‘loves’ us to bits even now; but us being so damn ‘dumb’ and ‘ selfish’, etc., all we do is complain; want s’mthing for nothing and refuse to admit all this.
so, what is O to do? well, he tells them this, but obliquely!

i also dare say that many people may think/feel like i do. but if one mentions to a redneck that we shld never grade children, s/he goes ballistic. maybe even lotsof socialists believe in using this ancient strategem? tnx

I suspect there is and it has been documented, and begun during the last administration, and is on the ready.

I think the real opportunities are urban-based.

You cannot have a revolt that lacks DEMANDS otherwise it will be merely an expression of enough is enough will at best end with some minor reforms.
DEMANDS are something concrete and programmatic and systemic. What is really missing on the Left is building solidarity around serious demands. This will take time to develop but unfortunately I don’t see the Left even trying to build such formations especially among communities of color.

This has to happen otherwise the ruling class has nothing to fear and will have no problems letting workers blow off steam.

The modern reality is the inverse of the fantasies of most Western leftists – we have little power, control, or vision, while the power, control, and vision is found outside the West. Yet many Western leftists refuse to engage with non-Westerners, believing that WE are the ones with the best will, the best ideas, the most power.

Racism remains at the heart of the entire West, including the left, and prevents the Western left from playing an effective role on the global political scene.

Exactly and the Left has been guilty of not building solidarity within its own ranks among the minorities here in the U.S. This is very evident as well with the Left’s apologia of Zionism’s influence upon U.S. Foreign policy. Racism and classism are twins that retards solidarity and IMO why the Left is so disorganized. I think Brain’s analysis is extremely astute. Debt obligations has essentially atomized workers and why the ruling class will not forgive any mortgages and consumer debt. The court system is a means to place additional enforceable financial obligations on workers. These are ways for the master to control their slaves — as Brian puts it.

I not against protests in general however the real issue as I see it is the lack of real organization and solidarity on the Left and Brian astutely observes why that is the case.

Never underestimate the weapon of US choice – Unleashed and Unbriddled Military Might. When there are problems – USE FORCE.

However, there is a threshold we have yet to reach. Will the great abstract “masses” revolt? If so when? Is there a plan for such a revolt?

To be effective, they cannot be what they’ve been over the past few decades – since Vietnam and the Civil Rights movement merged.

WTO was not detered by the 1999 Seattle demonstrations and protests, though it certainly raised awareness.

The problem, it seems, is not simply larger more powerful demonstrations or protests, but the next step. What happens when the dust settles?

Can life go on as it has? Is a simple poke in the Obama “eye” sufficient to do what needs doing? Or is the change required much more profound? I think the latter. Indigenous change is required, not simply a pounding of the fist in air. Such fist pounding, may get a reaction, but the unintended consequences may either make matters worse, or a means of appeasement through doubling up on divide and control will continue.

Obama is a natural appeaser. Which is why dealing with him is so tricky. His natural “enemy” is the faux opposition party. Playing one against the other has been fully exercised by the power-elite. Obama will keep the powerful happy, while placating the fist pounders (minimally, with a chuckle), and using the Dem/lib/progressives to keep the left of center divided and ruled.

This game can last as long as the collapse is in motion and not felt by the power elite. Once the pain is deep, the jig is up. Preparing for that seems critical.

If we see the lessons, historically, of say, the Russian Revolution, and how it played out, you’ll get an idea that a real Revolution is not only bloody, but the power plays can make what we’ve got look like child play. At the end, the results are no better.

let us consider the fact that US ruling class is even proportionally much stronger than any other ruling class.
it has the best weapons; largest army, spy agency, etc. thus, a protest by just 1-5 mn people across america wld not bring significant change.
but let us not deter well-organized, peaceful, and disciplined protests.
i love such protests, having self participated in protests and helped publicize them.

Bloomberg Ticker

Quote:

G20 Fashions New World Order With Smaller Role for U.S., More Regulation

O.K., for all the naysayers out there, how are you all going to spin this one?

This exercise should be very interesting.

Revolution, at least the kind we read about – French, Russian, Cuban – requires a level of pain that makes the revolt inevitable and the pain of the revolt relatively minor, incidental. So, let’s not fool ourselves about pots and pains in the streets vs militia confrontation – head to head.

“Hey Brian, Thanks for the insulting comment!”

The truth is never an insult. The worst it can be is inappropriate. Calling a fat person “fat” is not an insult, and the statement must be judged within context.

““The only people listening to protesters are other protesters.” Not true, you heard us and responded. Thanks!”

You’re not protesting, you’re posting on a forum. Once someone starts chanting and waving a sign they are tuned out by most people.

“Why do you assume wealth? Or a fear of risk? Have you resisted the fear of risk lately?”

Wealth is not an assumption, it’s a geopolitical reality in Western countries, derived from a combination of imperial conquest and industrial exploitation.

“Are you currently jailed or unhealthy? Are you struggling for revolution yourself?”

You’re trying to change the subject to avoid discussing the feeble nature of American protests.

“How do you know we don’t want change? Or revolution? If “we” don’t want revolution what exactly would inspire us to “seem to want revolution?””

Your better judgment inspires you to seem to want revolution. Your conscience inspires you to *actually* want revolution, but your “better judgment”, the part of your self that desires to remain wealthy, out of jail, and breathing, keeps you from passing from seeming to want revolution to acting for revolution. By “you” I mean protesters in general.

The most common phrase for this caution is “feeding the family”. Financial obligations for social-status maintenance ensure that caution is employed in political action.

There is a great divergence between desire and action. Protesting is a common way to seem as if action is being taken without any effective action being taken.

The primary purpose of protesting is to ease the conscience, to try to trick oneself into believing one is helping the world.

“And what’s wrong (in your mind) with making signs?”

The same thing that’s wrong with praying for rain – it’s ineffective and it’s purpose is ritualistic rather than rational.

“Corporations do almost nothing but make signs and symbols. I’d love to see the same level of outrage against the fact that we see a corporate message every few seconds Brian.”

There’s no point in acting outraged about something that everyone understands.

All slaves are deeply outraged about their status, but most do not *display* their outrage for a host of reasons, the most important being to not give away their conscious status to their masters. For slaves, deceit (under many circumstances) is not a character flaw – it’s part of the process of attaining freedom.

I was talking with a typical American slave a couple days ago, who said about lotteries, “The only way to win is not to play”. I noted that this was the same sentence used in the movie War Games, which she had not ever seen.

It’s a myth dearly held by the left that American slaves are ignorant. The truth is more complicated. On a deep level everyone knows the truth, but on conscious levels there’s no point in “knowing the truth” unless one can act on it.

In my talks with other American slaves I often note some political reality – for example an advertisement played on TV which offered credit to anyone “regardless of credit history”, and I said that kind of bank behavior is exactly what got us into the current credit crunch. If Americans were ignorant they would have either looked puzzled or would have resisted my words, but they nodded in agreement.

I’ve covered various political and social issues, many which the left considers American slaves to be ignorant of, and in all cases they proved not to be ignorant. The *details* they don’t know but of the underlying reality they are as aware as you or I.

The most common reason why slaves don’t rise up when asked to by self-proclaimed revolutionaries is that they don’t want to be punished by master for doing so.

The truth is a nuisance when one can’t do anything to change it. The truth can easily get one killed if master believes that truth risks his well-being.

Slaves aren’t ignorant – slaves are biding their time.

“You are making massive assumptions about people you don’t even know much less looked into. Have you considered looking into a mirror? Or joining?”

Joining what? What are you going to do?

“Are you willing to personally do more than “chant” or protest? Probably not. So why don’t you stop insulting those that take the time to at least try?”

By “try” you mean “succeed in making us feel good about ourselves and fail in improving the world”.

I’ve trained people in morality over the past several years. That’s one way to improve the world, and many other people choose other ways that fit their own strengths. Perhaps you can compare the relative values of other ways of improving the world with the effects of an American protest.

“Brian, we have actually talked and I’m disappointed that you are taking such stances.”

I’m disappointed that you’re being patronizing.

“What do you want? I see comments like this constantly. So we should “up the ante?” You want us to “kick some ass.” Right?”

The militant spirit does not necessarily include weaponry or physical violence. Part of morality is having a militant spirit. It’s wise to be open to the use of weapons when called for.

The militant spirit involves wisdom and personal commitment.

“But the second someone does, people condemn us as fucking “eco-terrorists” or whatever. We can’t win with this nonsense.”

Winning is a process. What’s important is choosing and employing the right actions to most benefit the process.

If the public at large condemns your actions, then they probably weren’t good actions. Slaves don’t like it when master hurts them because of the actions of revolutionaries.

“So which is it? Are we doing too much or too little? It’s constantly shifting.”

You’re personalizing. My critique is of American protests in general, and to an extent Western protests in general.

American protests are far from valueless – they are social gatherings and may provide organizing opportunities. But the protest itself (typically) has no political effect, and when it does have some political effect that effect is leveraged by the elite for their own benefit.

“Seriously dude, what do you want to see that will please you? Us with flowers or AK’s? Either way it seems like you will piss and moan and try nothing yourself.”

How about not just talk to other Western protestors, or to me (another Westerner), but talk to people who actually have the will to overthrow the system of Western imperial dominance? How about contribute to
a global movement for democracy?

The modern reality is the inverse of the fantasies of most Western leftists – we have little power, control, or vision, while the power, control, and vision is found outside the West. Yet many Western leftists refuse to engage with non-Westerners, believing that WE are the ones with the best will, the best ideas, the most power.

Racism remains at the heart of the entire West, including the left, and prevents the Western left from playing an effective role on the global political scene.

“The “Mickey Z and Derrick Jensen April 25, 2009.” get together is sure to be the feel-good event of the year. It’s the new drug for the hipsters who are burned out on all the others America provides.”

“Why would you be so insulting?!

It was simply an invitation to try something most of us have never tried before: adventure!

And you’re invited jackass!
Seriously, you are invited Brian Koonzt!”

Will the world be saved or will it be destroyed or degraded? As we reflect on what we did in our own lives to contribute to saving the world as well as what we did to contribute to degrading it, how do we view our various entertaining adventures?

I appreciate the invitation.

Leaders meet, nothing changes.
Protesters protest, nothing changes.

The sun comes up and everything is the same.

Perhaps a better question is why care?

Plod on like ordinary people always have, pay what is due and get it somewhere else, like we always have, look after each other and your own, like we always have and let the rich continue with their game, it is not our game to play. Just as one caveman accumulated more logs than another and swapped some of his excess for more food than he needed, so will it continue for all eternity, just find your place in it and be content.

This notion that pushing Obama will do anything meaningful and pure fantacy.

I will send out something (“Worshiping the Temple of Doom”) on cap-and-trade soon. It is incredible how governments resist the obvious (maybe not so incredible when lobbying budgets are examined, along with Washington’s revolving doors). This is not rocket science. If we want to move toward energy independence and solve the climate problem, we need to stop subsidizing fossil fuels with the public’s money and instead place a price on carbon emissions. James Hansen

“Worshiping the Temple of Doom” has a real ring to it. Now some people think worshiping the temple of doom is a good idea well I don’t happen to be one of them. I have a feeling this will be one of James’s best. Who is James Hansen one smart tuff person and let me add he needs all the help he can get. 100 months and after that all bet’s are off but will still need those boots.