Comments on: To Torture or Not to Torture http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:07:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: mary http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/#comment-41044 mary Fri, 13 Mar 2009 23:42:43 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7094#comment-41044 Further to my previous post about Craig Murray's attempts to give his evidence on torture to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, it has still not been heard and he has now been asked to give a written statement. This is just more prevarication and delay on the chairman's part acting on HM Government instructions no doubt, but it has now been written it and has been put on his website. He is a brave and determined person and very many of us are proud of him. http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/03/trying_again_my.html Further to my previous post about Craig Murray’s attempts to give his evidence on torture to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, it has still not been heard and he has now been asked to give a written statement. This is just more prevarication and delay on the chairman’s part acting on HM Government instructions no doubt, but it has now been written it and has been put on his website.

He is a brave and determined person and very many of us are proud of him.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/03/trying_again_my.html

]]> By: kalidas http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/#comment-40531 kalidas Mon, 09 Mar 2009 01:29:58 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7094#comment-40531 "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." J. Krishnamurti “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
J. Krishnamurti

]]> By: mary http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/#comment-40372 mary Fri, 06 Mar 2009 23:03:45 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7094#comment-40372 Ths following is linked to the first part of Mr Blum's excellent article, namely the involvement of the Blair government in torture. HM's ex-Ambassador to Uzbekistan, Craig Murray (author of Murder in Samarkand and The Catholic Orangemen of Togo and Other Conflicts I Have Known) is anxious for the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights to hear his evidence on torture. Needless to say, so far they have declined his offer. He also has knowledge of their complicity in the dreadful CIA extraordinary renditions. He is a brave and honourable man. Few in his position, if any, ever speak out and stand up for the truth. This is from his blogsite. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your Help Needed - Reveal Torture to Stop It On Tuesday 10 March the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights will discuss whether or not to hear my evidence on the UK government's policy of using intelligence from torture. They discussed whether to hear my evidence on 3 March but failed to reach a conclusion. The government is lobbying hard for my exclusion. I need everybody to send an email to jchr@parliament.uk to urge that I should be allowed to give evidence. Just a one-liner would be fine. If you are able to add some comment on the import of my evidence, or indicate that you have heard me speak or read my work, that may help. Please copy your email to craigjmurray@tiscali.co.uk. Please also pass on this plea to anyone you can and urge them to act. Help from other bloggers in posting this appeal would be much appreciated. The evidence I am trying to give the parliamentary committee is this: I wish to offer myself as a witness before the Joint Commission on Human Rights on the subject of the UK government's policy on intelligence cooperation with torture abroad. I appeared as a witness in person before both the European Parliament and European Council's enquiries into extraordinary rendition. My evidence was described by the European Council's Rapporteur, Senator Dick Marty, as "Compelling and valuable". The key points I wish to make are these: - I was British Ambassador in Uzbekistan from 2002 to 2004. - I learned and confirmed that I was regularly seeing intelligence from detainees in the Uzbek torture chambers, sent me by the CIA via MI6. - British Ministers and officials were seeing the same torture material. - In October/November 2002 and January/Februray 2003 I sent two Top Secret telegrams to London specifically on the subject of our receipt of intelligence gained under torture. I argued this was illegal, immoral and impractical. The telegrams were speciifically marked for the Secretary of State. - I was formally summoned back to the FCO for a meeting held on 7 or 8 March 2003 specifically and solely on the subject of intelligence gained under torture. Present were Linda Duffield, Director Wider Europe, FCO, Sir Michael Wood, Chief Legal Adviser, FCO, and Matthew Kydd, Head of Permanent Under-Secretary's Department, FCO. - This meeting was minuted. I have seen the record, which is classified Top Secret and was sent to Jack Straw. On the top copy are extensive hand-written marginalia giving Jack Straw's views. - I was told at this meeting that it is not illegal for us to obtain intelligence gained by torture, provided that we did not do the torture ourselves. I was told that it had been decided that as a matter of War on Terror policy we should now obtain intelligence from torture, following discussion between Jack Straw and Richard Dearlove. I was told that we could not exclude receipt of specific material from the CIA without driving a coach and horses through the universality principle of the UK/US intelligence sharing agreement, which would be detrimental to UK interests. - Sir Michael Wood's legal advice that it was not illegal to receive intelligence got by torture was sent on to me in Tashkent (copy attached). http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/documents/Wood.pdf- On 22 July 2004 I sent one further telegram on intelligence got by torture, with a lower classification, following FCO communications on the subject. Copy attached. http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/documents/Telegram.pdf It was my final communication before being dismissed as Ambassador. In conclusion, I can testify that beyond any doubt the British government has for at least six years a considered but secret policy of cooperation with torture abroad. This policy legally cleared by government legal advisers and approved by Jack Straw as Secretary of State. Craig Murray 2 March 2009 Posted by craig on 11:55 AM 04/03/09 under Rendition | Comments (48) March 3, 2009 A previous related post can be found on http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/03/parliamentary_j.html Ths following is linked to the first part of Mr Blum’s excellent article, namely the involvement of the Blair government in torture. HM’s ex-Ambassador to Uzbekistan, Craig Murray (author of Murder in Samarkand and The Catholic Orangemen of Togo and Other Conflicts I Have Known) is anxious for the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights to hear his evidence on torture. Needless to say, so far they have declined his offer.

He also has knowledge of their complicity in the dreadful CIA extraordinary renditions. He is a brave and honourable man. Few in his position, if any, ever speak out and stand up for the truth.

This is from his blogsite.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your Help Needed – Reveal Torture to Stop It
On Tuesday 10 March the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights will discuss whether or not to hear my evidence on the UK government’s policy of using intelligence from torture. They discussed whether to hear my evidence on 3 March but failed to reach a conclusion.

The government is lobbying hard for my exclusion. I need everybody to send an email to ku.tnemailrapnull@rhcj to urge that I should be allowed to give evidence. Just a one-liner would be fine. If you are able to add some comment on the import of my evidence, or indicate that you have heard me speak or read my work, that may help. Please copy your email to ku.oc.ilacsitnull@yarrumjgiarc.

Please also pass on this plea to anyone you can and urge them to act. Help from other bloggers in posting this appeal would be much appreciated.

The evidence I am trying to give the parliamentary committee is this:

I wish to offer myself as a witness before the Joint Commission on Human Rights on the subject of the UK government’s policy on intelligence cooperation with torture abroad.

I appeared as a witness in person before both the European Parliament and European Council’s enquiries into extraordinary rendition. My evidence was described by the European Council’s Rapporteur, Senator Dick Marty, as “Compelling and valuable”.

The key points I wish to make are these:

- I was British Ambassador in Uzbekistan from 2002 to 2004.
- I learned and confirmed that I was regularly seeing intelligence from detainees in the Uzbek torture chambers, sent me by the CIA via MI6.
- British Ministers and officials were seeing the same torture material.
- In October/November 2002 and January/Februray 2003 I sent two Top Secret telegrams to London specifically on the subject of our receipt of intelligence gained under torture. I argued this was illegal, immoral and impractical. The telegrams were speciifically marked for the Secretary of State.
- I was formally summoned back to the FCO for a meeting held on 7 or 8 March 2003 specifically and solely on the subject of intelligence gained under torture. Present were Linda Duffield, Director Wider Europe, FCO, Sir Michael Wood, Chief Legal Adviser, FCO, and Matthew Kydd, Head of Permanent Under-Secretary’s Department, FCO.
- This meeting was minuted. I have seen the record, which is classified Top Secret and was sent to Jack Straw. On the top copy are extensive hand-written marginalia giving Jack Straw’s views.
- I was told at this meeting that it is not illegal for us to obtain intelligence gained by torture, provided that we did not do the torture ourselves. I was told that it had been decided that as a matter of War on Terror policy we should now obtain intelligence from torture, following discussion between Jack Straw and Richard Dearlove. I was told that we could not exclude receipt of specific material from the CIA without driving a coach and horses through the universality principle of the UK/US intelligence sharing agreement, which would be detrimental to UK interests.
- Sir Michael Wood’s legal advice that it was not illegal to receive intelligence got by torture was sent on to me in Tashkent (copy attached).
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/documents/Wood.pdf- On 22 July 2004

I sent one further telegram on intelligence got by torture, with a lower classification, following FCO communications on the subject. Copy attached.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/documents/Telegram.pdf

It was my final communication before being dismissed as Ambassador.

In conclusion, I can testify that beyond any doubt the British government has for at least six years a considered but secret policy of cooperation with torture abroad. This policy legally cleared by government legal advisers and approved by Jack Straw as Secretary of State.

Craig Murray
2 March 2009

Posted by craig on 11:55 AM 04/03/09 under Rendition | Comments (48)
March 3, 2009

A previous related post can be found on http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/03/parliamentary_j.html

]]> By: rosemarie jackowski http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/#comment-40361 rosemarie jackowski Fri, 06 Mar 2009 20:26:36 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7094#comment-40361 This is another great article from Blum. Thanks, Bill. BUT, you are a lot more forgiving of the "American mental state" than I am. It seems to me, that at some point everyone must be held responsible for their belief system even if that system is a result of the culture, brain-washing, a terrible educational system, poor parenting... Predatory, willful ignorance is no excuse for mass murder. I guess that brings us back to the old question, is an insane person responsible for his actions. This is another great article from Blum. Thanks, Bill.
BUT, you are a lot more forgiving of the “American mental state” than I am. It seems to me, that at some point everyone must be held responsible for their belief system even if that system is a result of the culture, brain-washing, a terrible educational system, poor parenting… Predatory, willful ignorance is no excuse for mass murder.
I guess that brings us back to the old question, is an insane person responsible for his actions.

]]> By: danny ray http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/#comment-40349 danny ray Fri, 06 Mar 2009 16:22:16 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7094#comment-40349 Barry, Not me brother, I have never been a master of satire, or for that matter of baiting . maybe some day I can become a master of both. Barry,
Not me brother, I have never been a master of satire, or for that matter of baiting . maybe some day I can become a master of both.

]]> By: Barry http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/#comment-40342 Barry Fri, 06 Mar 2009 14:17:30 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7094#comment-40342 Certainly the Bush Administration support for the failed coup against the democratically-elected Chavez was evil - to use your terminology. Or were you being...satirical? Certainly the Bush Administration support for the failed coup against the democratically-elected Chavez was evil – to use your terminology.

Or were you being…satirical?

]]> By: danny ray http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/#comment-40337 danny ray Fri, 06 Mar 2009 13:12:53 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7094#comment-40337 Sir, Now why is that? Are all these people just ignorant? I think a better answer is that they have certain preconceptions; consciously or unconsciously, they have certain basic beliefs about the United States and its foreign policy, most prominent amongst which is the belief that the US means well. And if you don’t deal with this basic belief you’ll be talking to a stone wall. Let me get this right, Every thing Americans do is evil, every thing everyone else does is good? Sir,
Now why is that? Are all these people just ignorant? I think a better answer is that they have certain preconceptions; consciously or unconsciously, they have certain basic beliefs about the United States and its foreign policy, most prominent amongst which is the belief that the US means well. And if you don’t deal with this basic belief you’ll be talking to a stone wall.

Let me get this right, Every thing Americans do is evil, every thing everyone else does is good?

]]> By: catherine http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/to-torture-or-not-to-torture/#comment-40309 catherine Thu, 05 Mar 2009 22:19:56 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7094#comment-40309 "What matters are the death and destruction that result and the expectation that we could have avoided it. " Oops, be careful, Mr. Mullen. You might unconsciously state a truth. “What matters are the death and destruction that result and the expectation that we could have avoided it. ”

Oops, be careful, Mr. Mullen. You might unconsciously state a truth.

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