Perhaps the issue with your reading what I say is that you are a linear thinker or something of the sort.

When I asked if Marx was “against” industrialization it was a “tongue in cheek” to Suthiano. My point then and now is that industrialization is not simply a capitalist “virtue” but one Marx hand no issue with. He had issue with ownership.

Your second post is irrelevant red herring regarding anything I said or intended.

By the way, Mathus was pretty much on track. What happened in Britain to stop the crash he predicted was fathom, disease and migration that altered the local population.

Yes Max and since you put the environment for rich first world folks like yourself about all others you would like to embrace the Ebanezer Scooge school of the “surplus population” dying off in order to reduce humanity’s footprint.

CAPITALISM with its imbalance of power and access to resources is why there was and still is POVERTY and disease and misfortune and all of the ills of society. Your rhetoric Max is to shift the blame to the poore especally the third world poor whose desparate condition and especally the powerless of women in these region to have more children. The statics shows that there is population declines among the first world nation while at the same time their take of the world’s wealth and resources consumed has increased. This is clearly an imbalance of power and it will take an immense struggle especially from below to alter this course.

Everyone out there has “solution” but if it does not address POWER then all of the so-called “good ideas” will never emerge.

Get some schooling before posting ridiculous rhetoric.

Marx’s ecology in historical perspective

Marx was certainly a fan of industrialization, it was his golden ticket to freedom for the masses…. who I assume would spend their extra free time producing children and fueling an overshoot.

It is important to recognize limits of ideological thinking.

These are all interesting ideas to me, thanks for posting.

Monocultural farming, it could be argued has contributed to the total global population growth. That is in fact my point. It is also my point that industrialization is what most large scale (dominate) farming is today. So yes industrialized agriculture is central to both monocultural farming and global food system and contriubtes to population growth.

My post was about systemic changes, not about “labor” and “exploitation. Do you see what I’m getting at? Deadbeat doesn’t, but I hope you do. I am offering a systems view rather than a world view or ideological one.

You can apply what I’m saying to all living things, not just humans. I don’t think nats or catapillars or dinosaurs or eagles are thinking about survival as a Marxist dialectic.

By the way, was Marx against industrialization?

I have written for almost the past two years that Iraq war was for Israel to change the map of the region to benefit Israel. This change comes with destabilization and partition of the regional states including Iraq. If you have read two of my comments you would have not asked “I do not know that they want also parts of Iraq.” Of course they do. One of the reasons for Iraq war is to partition Iraq to create non-Arab puppet state like Kurdistan. The Kurds are PAWNS to transfer north of Iraq with its oil resources to Israel as part of the ‘Greater Israel’ fantasy taken from bible, manmade hoax, like they have done in Palestine, of course using the empire as a PROXY. You should read the zionist plan for the Middle East which is under title “A strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties” by Oded Yinon. Hurry up please.

http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/zionist_plan.html#contents
Wayne Madsen has written:
{Israel reportedly has plans to relocate thousands of Kurdish Jews from Israel, including expatriates from Kurdish Iran, to the Iraqi cities of Mosul and Nineveh under the guise of religious pilgrimages to ancient Jewish religious shrines. According to Kurdish sources, the Israelis are secretly working with the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) to carry out the integration of Kurdish and other Jews into areas of Iraq under control of the KRG.
Kurdish, Iraqi Sunni Muslims, and Turkmen have noted that Kurdish Israelis began to buy land in Iraqi Kurdistan, after the U.S. invasion in 2003 that is considered historical Jewish “property.”
The Israelis are particularly interested in the shrine of the Jewish prophet Nahum in al Qush, the prophet Jonah in Mosul, and the tomb of the prophet Daniel in Kirkuk. Israelis are also trying to claim Jewish “properties” outside of the Kurdish region, including the shrine of Ezekiel in the village of al-Kifl in Babel Province near Najaf and the tomb of Ezra in al-Uzayr in Misan Province, near Basra, both in southern Iraq’s Shi’a-dominated territory. Israeli expansionists consider these shrines and tombs as much a part of “Greater Israel” as Jerusalem and the West Bank, which they call “Judea and Samaria.”}

You must read the basic on the question of “greater Israel” to understand why people strongly believe that Israelis’ policy and genocide is not limited to Palestine. Israel has her own goals and interests different from American’s interest based on world domination

So population growth and activities like monoculture farming (the WTO created monocultural arrangements) had/have nothing to do with labour and/or the industrialization that resulted from the capitalist system?

If you don’t understand something ask. You are obviously not familar with dynamic systems theory. That’s ok. No one knows everything. But rather than tossing out your politically charged views, you should try to understand what is being said.

The ‘growth’ I’m addressing has NOTHING to do with labor or Karl Marx.

Population is an issue with all species. Your “Malthusian rhetoric” is a misunderstanding, or lack of careful reading of what I posted. I talked of Overshoot. After 10s of thousands of years the human population reached just under 2 billion. Within a short 100 years it is tipping the scales at nearly 7 billion!! That is one of thousands of examples of overshoot. But some overshooting are relatively innocuous, like turning on the shower water and stepping in only to realize it is scolding – that is an example of an easily rectified overshoot. Human population, and energy depletion is an extreme and civilization threatening example.

Now maybe from your cozy abode that doesn’t mean a whole lot. But in real terms it does. A study of our global food system, for examplem will tell you just how precarious that system is. It is well documented, but you refuse to care about these things because your world view is all about racial/class struggle. There’s a world, a planet that doesn’t care one iota about this struggle. The politics which keeps this all a struggle, does not allow for problem solutions.

WTO agreements have created monocultural arrangements that have devastated indigenous farming. The latter fed communities. The replacement does not. Food is cheap and dumped into markets like Mexico forcing farms to come North away from their villages to become “illegal aliens”.

If you are Earl Butz you may think our food system is working just fine. Earl gave us this wonderful monoculture/military industrial complex global food system.

By the way, Mathus was pretty much on track. What happened in Britain to stop the crash he predicted was fathom, disease and migration that altered the local population.

‘zionists’ had avowed to obtain jordan and parts of leb/syr. i do not know that they want also parts of iraq. thnx

The problem of “growth” is not that there are food “shortages”. This Malthusian rhetoric is one of the reason why “environmentalist” lose credibility and retard solidarity especially with people of color. This leads to the false notions of “overpopulation”, “carrying capacity” and “energy depletion”. Energy depletion is dubious especially “peak oil” that was used a “Leftist” tool to mislead activist that the war in Iraq was a “war for oil” and not a zionist enterprise.

The big problem with “growth” is that it is achieved via vast labor exploitation and a race to the bottom. In order to have “growth” there must be an adjoining level of POVERTY. In other words there is no “growth” but a huge TRANSFER of WEALTH that doesn’t count the externality of despoiling and exploting the environment — both people, animal and nature — or as Marx labelled the “exploitation of everything”.

The DotCom Bubble was a little taste of it in economic terms. But this is not just an economic meltdown. This is an utter collapse at every level. I’m talking about food shortages, and energy depletion, climate change which has tipped.

We will know we’ve collapsed several years after it happens. Just like early fall was when the free fall was recognized with the sub-prime housing and then financial meltdown – it had actually begun years earlier.

This is NOT recoverable. It is down the chute. We don’t have a clue what it will look like at the other end.

This overshoot began in the 1970s. We knew then and now what’s needed but the very polity/culture/economic systems in USA are incapable of responding to the warning, the feedback was there, the alarms have been going off, but all is fastforward…

Aside from Obama’s obvious immaturity on matters of state and economics, perhaps HE should have been vetted before running to see if he understands the fundamental principles of accounting. HE would have failed, then. But it’s irrelevant because we’ve already passed the point of return.

It’s playing out like this: The patient has been told he has lung cancer and so decides to chain smoke to the very end.

Many are trying to continue killing the truth’s in the twenty first century and this time the lies that are immortal brings us to the truth’s. We need to use the truth and the knowledge and soon. Read DV Barrack