<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Democrats&#8217; Abandonment of the Employee Free Choice Act</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/</link>
	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:07:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-42040</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 07:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-42040</guid>
		<description>The old tyrants were landowners, now they are factory owners.  The more things change...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The old tyrants were landowners, now they are factory owners.  The more things change&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-42021</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 02:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-42021</guid>
		<description>Jeff,

I think the principles behind permaculture is worthy of serious consideration. It means looking at the world very differently. I mentioned above the &quot;aloofness&quot; that technology creates regarding work, it particularly creates a super aloofness regarding nature, to the point that we literally don&#039;t SEE it any more.

Permaculture returns that vision. I think it will be turned as a result of collapse on many levels of our current structure of &quot;civilization&quot;. We will be forced to see much, and work with it. New relationships will spring from that new sensitivity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>I think the principles behind permaculture is worthy of serious consideration. It means looking at the world very differently. I mentioned above the &#8220;aloofness&#8221; that technology creates regarding work, it particularly creates a super aloofness regarding nature, to the point that we literally don&#8217;t SEE it any more.</p>
<p>Permaculture returns that vision. I think it will be turned as a result of collapse on many levels of our current structure of &#8220;civilization&#8221;. We will be forced to see much, and work with it. New relationships will spring from that new sensitivity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-42018</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 01:52:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-42018</guid>
		<description>Interesting Max.

This &quot;latter version&quot; beckons agricultural based &quot;something&quot;.

&quot;What was old in now new again&quot;.

Growing your own and then using excess for important things could be the &quot;old again&quot;  relationship. 

Now that is of scope which for most is science fiction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting Max.</p>
<p>This &#8220;latter version&#8221; beckons agricultural based &#8220;something&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;What was old in now new again&#8221;.</p>
<p>Growing your own and then using excess for important things could be the &#8220;old again&#8221;  relationship. </p>
<p>Now that is of scope which for most is science fiction.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-42016</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 01:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-42016</guid>
		<description>On the one hand is labor. Labor has many forms and with technology and the aloofness technology has created, work and the people who perform work has changed. I think it&#039;s important to understand the nature of work and how many people are actually &quot;laborers&quot;.

Unions have a history, important, integral, and it has served both workers/laborers and corporations. I think a brief history of the Wobbly (think Eugene Debs) or IWW  union gives you a good sense of what the union movement, the progressive labor movement was at its best. But that quickly changed and unions became hierarchical political entities that mirrored their counterparts in management.

Unions are not movements. Let&#039;s be clear. They grew out of the labor movement, and as I said, Wobbly reflected that movement. Wobblies believed in the dichotomy of worker/management has an endless struggle. But again, unions changed well before they lost much of their power.

Fundamentally it could be argued that the problem is found in the relationship between worker and work. The roles associated with performing work, for whom, what, when, how much are at the core of the problem. If the worker owns production, there is no distinction, no dichotomy. The struggle disappears as one between worker and employer.

Does the struggle make for an ever improving emergent of equity? Or is the struggle needless, and should be replaced by envisioning new models, new relationships of ownership? I think the latter is a vision of the possibilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the one hand is labor. Labor has many forms and with technology and the aloofness technology has created, work and the people who perform work has changed. I think it&#8217;s important to understand the nature of work and how many people are actually &#8220;laborers&#8221;.</p>
<p>Unions have a history, important, integral, and it has served both workers/laborers and corporations. I think a brief history of the Wobbly (think Eugene Debs) or IWW  union gives you a good sense of what the union movement, the progressive labor movement was at its best. But that quickly changed and unions became hierarchical political entities that mirrored their counterparts in management.</p>
<p>Unions are not movements. Let&#8217;s be clear. They grew out of the labor movement, and as I said, Wobbly reflected that movement. Wobblies believed in the dichotomy of worker/management has an endless struggle. But again, unions changed well before they lost much of their power.</p>
<p>Fundamentally it could be argued that the problem is found in the relationship between worker and work. The roles associated with performing work, for whom, what, when, how much are at the core of the problem. If the worker owns production, there is no distinction, no dichotomy. The struggle disappears as one between worker and employer.</p>
<p>Does the struggle make for an ever improving emergent of equity? Or is the struggle needless, and should be replaced by envisioning new models, new relationships of ownership? I think the latter is a vision of the possibilities.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-42014</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 00:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-42014</guid>
		<description>Yeah Daniel Gerber. Workers and &#039;corporate shareholders and management&#039; are all &#039;stakeholders&#039; together in the same way that master and slave are &#039;stakeholders&#039; together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah Daniel Gerber. Workers and &#8216;corporate shareholders and management&#8217; are all &#8216;stakeholders&#8217; together in the same way that master and slave are &#8216;stakeholders&#8217; together.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-42011</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-42011</guid>
		<description>Just another reason I voted Nader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just another reason I voted Nader.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bozh</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-42008</link>
		<dc:creator>bozh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-42008</guid>
		<description>well, the first knife maker may have produced just 5 knives  a day; that&#039;s all he may have worked at.
but having seven children and a wife+old folks he had to obtain daily 3-4 loafs of bread, 2-3 kilos of meat, 2-3 liters milk; enough vegetables, fruits, nuts, eggs.
he was a very rich and happy man. for a knife he made, he calculated that he needed tw0 chickens, 5 eggs, and two loafs of bread.
selling all the knives he cld clothe and feed his entire family.
best of all, his children did not have to go to school and they grew to be wonderful human beings because crooks did not get to them.
and then, some 3T yrs ago an idiot in anatolia invented coins; and we&#039;ve had no peace or justice ever since.
and it may have not been solely the coin which caused so many wars/abuse of people but other people.
but before money, another great evil befell us:shamanism followed by more refined cults.
and damn the people of those days for not killing every shaman, mad priest, and money changer  that behaved like madoff, greenspan, friedman, et al.
tnx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, the first knife maker may have produced just 5 knives  a day; that&#8217;s all he may have worked at.<br />
but having seven children and a wife+old folks he had to obtain daily 3-4 loafs of bread, 2-3 kilos of meat, 2-3 liters milk; enough vegetables, fruits, nuts, eggs.<br />
he was a very rich and happy man. for a knife he made, he calculated that he needed tw0 chickens, 5 eggs, and two loafs of bread.<br />
selling all the knives he cld clothe and feed his entire family.<br />
best of all, his children did not have to go to school and they grew to be wonderful human beings because crooks did not get to them.<br />
and then, some 3T yrs ago an idiot in anatolia invented coins; and we&#8217;ve had no peace or justice ever since.<br />
and it may have not been solely the coin which caused so many wars/abuse of people but other people.<br />
but before money, another great evil befell us:shamanism followed by more refined cults.<br />
and damn the people of those days for not killing every shaman, mad priest, and money changer  that behaved like madoff, greenspan, friedman, et al.<br />
tnx</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Gerber</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-42007</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Gerber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-42007</guid>
		<description>I am neither pro or against unions.  I am not sure whether this new legislation is really having much of an impact on the economy.   Somehow the issue seems to be dissected as either anti labor or anti business.  In the end unions, corporate shareholders and management are all stakeholders in the same business or even the same industry.  In fact assuming all sides are reasonable and flexible they will all recognize that business cycles allow for either some expansion of benefits or contraction in line with business incomes and profits.  In Germany, union are represented on the company&#039;s board, maybe that why German executives earn &quot;only&quot; 150 times the average worker salary while in the US it is 300 times or more.  

There is no doubt that legacy costs related to health care and pensions is to a large extent what make US car companies less competitive on the world stage.  Of course, the irony is also that US car executives are still the best paid in the world (although recently many have changed their compensation to 1 US$/year).   Why does this have to always be a confrontational relationship?   Around the world, it seem the most competitive companies are the ones that treat employees well, but also where employees are looking out for the benefit of the company and respect its management.  That is what needs to be reestablished, a partnership between labor, shareholders and managers with transparent and honest discussions as to how investments are made, risks are assumed and benefits are distributed and everybody is rewarded according to what they contribute to the company&#039;s well being.  In good times a bit more, in bad times a bit less  keeping in mind that unless the company is competitive, it is has its days numbered.  Finally unions should also not forget who they work for, their role is not as a political force, or to force management to do something but to keep the long term interest of its members in mind. Many times it takes loosing a battle to win the war never forgetting that winning a wasteland brings little benefit to its constituency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am neither pro or against unions.  I am not sure whether this new legislation is really having much of an impact on the economy.   Somehow the issue seems to be dissected as either anti labor or anti business.  In the end unions, corporate shareholders and management are all stakeholders in the same business or even the same industry.  In fact assuming all sides are reasonable and flexible they will all recognize that business cycles allow for either some expansion of benefits or contraction in line with business incomes and profits.  In Germany, union are represented on the company&#8217;s board, maybe that why German executives earn &#8220;only&#8221; 150 times the average worker salary while in the US it is 300 times or more.  </p>
<p>There is no doubt that legacy costs related to health care and pensions is to a large extent what make US car companies less competitive on the world stage.  Of course, the irony is also that US car executives are still the best paid in the world (although recently many have changed their compensation to 1 US$/year).   Why does this have to always be a confrontational relationship?   Around the world, it seem the most competitive companies are the ones that treat employees well, but also where employees are looking out for the benefit of the company and respect its management.  That is what needs to be reestablished, a partnership between labor, shareholders and managers with transparent and honest discussions as to how investments are made, risks are assumed and benefits are distributed and everybody is rewarded according to what they contribute to the company&#8217;s well being.  In good times a bit more, in bad times a bit less  keeping in mind that unless the company is competitive, it is has its days numbered.  Finally unions should also not forget who they work for, their role is not as a political force, or to force management to do something but to keep the long term interest of its members in mind. Many times it takes loosing a battle to win the war never forgetting that winning a wasteland brings little benefit to its constituency.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-42002</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-42002</guid>
		<description>Well Ron Horn, what NEEDS to be done is that every time anyone makes something &quot;by their hand&quot;, they all collectively NEED to take ownership.

One supervisor, ten &quot;peeons&quot;.

Everyone, whom are you?

Some will say this will lead to anarchy.

Fine, WE NEED EXACTLY THAT.

Then comes community without the &quot;third party&quot;

Trick is, not letting the third party back into the celebration!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Ron Horn, what NEEDS to be done is that every time anyone makes something &#8220;by their hand&#8221;, they all collectively NEED to take ownership.</p>
<p>One supervisor, ten &#8220;peeons&#8221;.</p>
<p>Everyone, whom are you?</p>
<p>Some will say this will lead to anarchy.</p>
<p>Fine, WE NEED EXACTLY THAT.</p>
<p>Then comes community without the &#8220;third party&#8221;</p>
<p>Trick is, not letting the third party back into the celebration!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ron Horn</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/03/democrats-abandonment-of-the-employee-free-choice-act/#comment-41979</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Horn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=7405#comment-41979</guid>
		<description>One must understand that under capitalism workers are essentially a cost of doing business, that is, they add to the material, energy, and financial costs of a profit making enterprise.  Profit making enterprises exist to extract wealth from the labor of working people and the machines and plant equipment which also exist because of working people.  

The whole system depends upon the private &quot;ownership&quot; of production.  Such a system serves a class of owners who thrive at the expense of the vast majority of people who depend for their well being on selling their labor to &quot;owners&quot; on the labor market .  Hence owners will always oppose any rights or opportunities for working people to, in any way, enhance their power to modify a  system which so brilliantly serves this class of &quot;owners&quot;.  The latter constitute a ruling class, and as such, control most of society&#039;s institutions through systems of hierarchy, patronage, control of hiring and firing, bribery, etc.  

To continue at this late date to expend energy trying to play according to the rules made by the ruling class is futile, the only action worth taking is to organize to change the system so that it serves the needs of all the people.  How many more wars, how much more environmental degradation, social degradation characterized by huge police forces, a vast prison system, crime, poverty, unemployment, etc., must we continue to endure before we wake up to the necessity, not merely the desirability, of changing the system to serve all the people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One must understand that under capitalism workers are essentially a cost of doing business, that is, they add to the material, energy, and financial costs of a profit making enterprise.  Profit making enterprises exist to extract wealth from the labor of working people and the machines and plant equipment which also exist because of working people.  </p>
<p>The whole system depends upon the private &#8220;ownership&#8221; of production.  Such a system serves a class of owners who thrive at the expense of the vast majority of people who depend for their well being on selling their labor to &#8220;owners&#8221; on the labor market .  Hence owners will always oppose any rights or opportunities for working people to, in any way, enhance their power to modify a  system which so brilliantly serves this class of &#8220;owners&#8221;.  The latter constitute a ruling class, and as such, control most of society&#8217;s institutions through systems of hierarchy, patronage, control of hiring and firing, bribery, etc.  </p>
<p>To continue at this late date to expend energy trying to play according to the rules made by the ruling class is futile, the only action worth taking is to organize to change the system so that it serves the needs of all the people.  How many more wars, how much more environmental degradation, social degradation characterized by huge police forces, a vast prison system, crime, poverty, unemployment, etc., must we continue to endure before we wake up to the necessity, not merely the desirability, of changing the system to serve all the people.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

