Comments on: Overcoming vs. Recycling Palestinian Oppression: Between Resistance and Peace Process

By: EragFrierve

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By: The Paraphraser

The Paraphraser — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:08:19 +0000

Mebosa I would be utterly delighted if you could, as they say, give me the hook up. All the best.

By: mebosa ritchie

mebosa ritchie — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:43:41 +0000

bozh,you’re smoking some good gear today.
tried some moroccan skunk but it tasted like camel dung.
have you tried menthol filters with a sprinkling of ketamine powder and some home grown oklahoma stuff.
real good and it lasts about 8 hrs and gives you peace with everyone
all the best

By: bozh

bozh — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:38:49 +0000

mebosa,
my wife makes rules especially for me. ‘zionists’ make rules especially for pal’ns; at least at this time.
judaists make special rules for judaists and ‘jews’ and also different special rules for all other cults.
e.g., special rule numero uno is that only a ‘jew’ (even tho she maybe a gypsy) is chosen.

judeans had a rule for everything, which made jesus (yehuda?) so mad he called the pharisees “hypocrites”.

however, judaists hate islam but are deathly afraid of mad christians. judaists love me, because i am impious and to boot have devil of my own.
the riddle is why do ‘zionists’ hate me? i am just like them; totally impious and i and ‘zionists’ have a devil of our own.
is it because ‘zionists’ think that only they have a right to a devil?
vielen dank, gracias muchos.

By: mebosa ritchie

mebosa ritchie — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:31:27 +0000

shabnam,you are entirely correct.
the zionists,well the jews really, are responsible for ALL the problems in the world,including global warming,the economic recesion and even the disappearing pandas in china.
they are behind every earthquake,hurricane and tsunami in the world
i even believe they are responible for my haemorrhoids flaring up as this is probably a worldwide zionist plot to subjugate the world by causing everyone to suffer from haemorrhoids to take their mind off the economic problems.
well spotted shabnam

By: Shabnam

Shabnam — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:53:07 +0000

We are reading comments from few closet Zionists at this site who are trying to make crimes of Zionism and its supporters all over the world as a service to the ‘empire.’ These closet Zionists are in total denial that resistance against occupation of Palestine is the only tool left for anyone to bring down occupation and to wipe off Zionism, worse than fascism, from the face of earth. This trick, to present ‘Zionism as a proxy power’ has been exposed long time ago and no one listens to this rubbish any more since we are witnessing crimes made by zionism in occupied Palestine, North of Iraq (Kurdistan) on daily basis, and in Sudan where they had launched a phony campaign, ‘child slavery’ with James Jacobs as its director to brainwash citizen of the ‘empire’ to cooperate with phony Zionist’s campaign against Sudanese government to create tension among population by providing financial and military support to its manufactured ‘leader’, George Garang, to partition Sudan. Today, Southern Sudan is ‘autonomous’ and because Garang is dead due to a helicopter crash in July 2005, his widow Rebecca Garang, handling the diplomatic relations between Southern Sudan and other countries such as US, Canada. According to sources SPLA, Garang’s party, has an office in Israel, which is against the policy of Sudanese government. After their success in Southern Sudan, the Zionists have moved to Darfur with a phony charge of ‘genocide’ to partition Sudan according to Oded Yinon’s instructions.
This is related to zionist plan of world domination where, according to Oded Yinon, “A strategy for Israel in the nineteen eighties” Israel must 1) become an imperial regional power, and 2) must effect the division of the whole area into small states by the partition of all regional states.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/926/focus.htm

By: dino

dino — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:59:26 +0000

The settlers and especially the young are called “idealists” by the Israeli commentators because “they deny the reality” or something like that.But they have nothing idealist if through the term is understood a desire to reach, with every means,even self sacrifice, a thing valid for the entire humanity or a large part of it.The settlers risk nothing.They are armed and protected by the army and by the law.Of course what they want is far away to be an universal aim,is contrary to what a human being see as right from an universal point of view .

By: Menashe Shlomo

Menashe Shlomo — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:26:12 +0000

Barry good morning ( it’s morning in Palestine). Lately I read an article that maintained that Zionism is nationality in reverse; that is, whereas national movement (as usually encountered in history books ) craves to throw the shackles of the empire it is under, Zionism on the contrary was created by empire (Britain) and maintained by empire (US) , to serve as proxy power in curbing other nationalities – Arab nationality in general and Palestinian in particular . Therefore it is aligned with colonialism,imperialism,supremacism and subjugation , and that’s why it is elitistic and antidemocratic ( if by democracy we understand the people and equality of humanity). Another aspect of Zionism is that it is idealistic ,that is ,it strives to forge and create reality according to a set of concepts (ideology) regardless of the existing circunstances and conditions ; in other words to revolutionize reality. Therefore it has to be ruthless,uncompromising and egotistic. The reason that I suggest non-resistance is that since day one until today resistance played against the Palestinians. It was either forcefully crashed or they were manipulated and lied to ,as during Oslo and all the other phases of the “peace process” ; as you rightly said, for them there was only one destiny-perish . Furthermore, look what “accrue” them from the second intifada : a wall ,more land confiscation, hundreds of more checkpoints ,Jewish only roads,movement restriction ,arbiterary rule , and much more ; to sum – more strangulation .The viciousness and malignancy of Washington-Israel. This is a tragedy in the making. The Palestinians must extricate themselves out of it and resign the role of the victim. Let them not play into the hands of people who don’t wish them well . Let them not incure the wrath of empire who already marked them off . Let them forgo the demand for recognition , and concentrate and invest in rehabilitating their life. Zionism is in a Tantalus posision . It almost got what it wants but for a minor gap- the existense of Arabs on “Eretz-Israel” . The Jews have made a full circle just to meet what they had feared and wanted to avoid namely, Arab majority in “retz Israel” . Zionism would long since achieved its goal but for the Palestinians who have ” stuck” in its way. That’s the frustration and that’s the helplessness . We are wroughting a great revolution here , we are on the historic journey to Jewish statehood and these Arabs thence? They want to shear us of our great achievement but we are not going to let them,they want to take us 60 years back but we will turn the clock on them many years back (Dan Halutz on Lebanon July 12 2006 bbc.news). We will despair them from their false dream .We have no use for them “. See Ari Shavit interview with Dov Weissglass Haaretz about putting the peace process in formaldeyhde. Barry basically I accept your assesment of the “options” but I am pessimistic as for the chances of achieving anything ,because there is no will on the part of America-Israel to grant them anything whatsoever . It’s an experiment in despair.

By: Barry

Barry — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 02:16:39 +0000

But since Israeli Jews do not want the burden of governing scores of millions of non-Jews, and resentful ones at that, I think Erez Israel basically stops at the Jordan River on the east, the Litani on the north, and a piece of Sinai. Not that they will get it – but I think that’s always been the long-term goal – similar to what the early Zionists pushed for. Trouble is, Israel realized with the ’73 war that Egypt will never relent on possession of Sinai just as Syria is not going to relent on Golan. Ultimately, but for border adjustments in Palestine, I think Israel is at is maximum geography. Not that it should be any bigger.

By: bozh

bozh — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:15:04 +0000

barry,
yes, US has an end solution for israel. it’s a taboo subject. to date, as far as i know, the telos has not even been mentioned let alone a demand made on uncle sam to reveal what his ‘solution’ entails.
without obtaining a palestinischen frei eretz yishrael, ‘zionists’ wld have labored in vain.
so that is just one step in perhaps 5-6 step plan. step 2 wld be to tear apart syria and lebanon. step1 actually may be accomplished after step 6.
whatever the order, israel wld have been too tiny, too poor; surounded with enemies unless all steps are accomplished.
dismembering iran and jordan may be also part of the plan.
however, all steps wld not be accomplished until oil is depleted to a degree and renewable energies are obtained.

‘ zionists’ (means they have no connection to zion) after near a century have not obtained a state.
since they can easily achieve a state of their own and 98% of israelis feverishly desire it, the question arises, what is stopping them?
i think US and some oiless country do.

By: Barry

Barry — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:41:51 +0000

Menashe – Good Day. Actually, I was not really accusing you of projecting your psyche onto the Palestinians. Rather it seems we (supporters of either side or supporters of some ideal) try to explain the Israeli-Jewish psyche – whether based in the Holocaust, based in government/media brainwashing, or based in their alleged Western ideals, etc. When we attempt to explain the Palestinian psyche, it is usually quite simplistic. As a result, Israeli-Jewish angst and yearnings have to be dealt with – but for the Palestinians it’s a mere toggle switch – they either want peace or not; or they either recognize Israel or not; or they either resist violently or come up with a Gandhi. So the analysis of Palestinians aspirations and their grave historical disappointments are given short shrift.

While Israelis are perceived to be rational and are forgiven for being driven by the Arabs to occasional irrationality, Palestinians are expected to make rational choices, their perceived all-too-frequent irrational choices are deemed cultural failures of one stripe or another. So I think it is asking too much for Palestinians to go gentle (gentile?) into that good night, to refrain from resisting – winning the demographic struggle in the long run brings no peace of mind in the present.

I was not suggesting that Jewish resistance brought down the Nazis – in fact I was arguing that non-resistance, passive resistance, or violent resistance would no doubt have engendered the same results for European Jews. (I do wonder what sustained resistance to the Nazis would have done for the Jewish psyche today, both in and out of Israel, and what ramifications it might have had for today’s conflict.) In as much as the Israeli goal is an Erez Israel that includes at least all land it currently inhabits or occupies (now likely minus Gaza), it does not seem to me that Palestinians would have gained anything from non-resistance or non-violent resistance. After all, Israel took the WB&G in 1967 without having been attacked by Palestinians – and Israel subsequently began moving settlers into the Territories with little organized resistance from the stunned population. In fact, I think the lack of organized Palestinian resistance up front only encouraged Israel to expropriate more land.

I agree that the goal of the Israeli state is to disappear the Palestinians – to make them into miscellaneous Arabs – ‘at home anywhere and nowhere’ – as I believe Golda Meier put it. And I agree that it is Iranian support for Palestinians that is the root cause of the US/Israel effort to squash that country – as the US did Iraq, as you say.

Your options: (A) Palestinians wait it out until Israeli leaders renounce Zionism. OK – that may not be as long a wait as hell freezing over, but pretty close. While I do recognize that the bloom is off the Zionism flower both in Israel and in the US, its advocates are pretty tenacious and well ensconced in the halls of power. So while it is more and more difficult over time to rally Jews to Israel’s support with each passing ‘crisis’, far fewer come to the aid of Palestine, or at least few with deep purses and friends in Washington or the national media. My final hesitation on this is that if the Czechs and Slovaks could not form one nation, how can Palestinians and Jews?
The second solution (B) – accepting the Bantustans – seems to me a recipe for disappearance – ethnic cleansing. What will likely happen to my way of thinking is that this Palestine of numerous compounds will not be viable. Unrest will ensue, parts will once again be occupied by Israel – and then annexed, while the rest of the ‘failed state’ will be handed over to Jordan – with some border adjustments. Voila – the Palestinians are relegated to quaint history as was intended by Zionists all along. Now, of course the Palestinians will be actively functioning against their own demise – but it is unlikely to be enough without a major change in the balance of power on the planet (or maybe some ecological upheaval that entirely changes the game).

What I imagine will happen is that the state of Palestine will eventually consist of most of the present day West Bank – and all of Gaza, poor Gaza. Palestinians will have to hold out for a 1:1 exchange on land – the Galilee would be ideal, but difficult to gain from Israel (but Palestinians must insist on more than sandy/swampy/contaminated land behind Gaza). At some point after that, it will likely be in the best interests of the mini-state of Palestine to join in a free association with Jordan. In the meantime, a few Palestinian refugees will have been permitted back into their homes now in Israel – but the majority will take compensation and stay in their present countries or move to Palestine. There will be repercussions on this for some time to come because neither Hamas nor PLO are entitled to speak for refugees, so I imagine there will be some dissent from all three sides in this triangle. I envision this scenario happening within this decade or so. The region will then reach a new equilibrium and will await events that once again take it out of equilibrium – events originating in such half-baked solutions. Maybe down the pike there will be a bi-national solution, but if I had to lay odds it I think further marginalization of Palestinians is more likely than a solitary state containing both. Not the fault of the Palestinians mind you, they have been valiant – but because no one is going to come to their rescue.

By: Menashe Shlomo

Menashe Shlomo — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 00:38:29 +0000

Barry,thanks for your comment.Before relating to your insightful remarks Iwant to say that shortly after adressing Dina by the words”Dina shalom” Irealised how much this word(shalom) has been abused in recent years in our region that I almost felt awkward using it. Now to the point.I am very well aware that I project my psyche unto the Palestinians when I want them not to get head to head against Israel cum America. I’ll explain : What eventually brought the Nazis down was not Jewish resistance ,which anyway was hopeless in the face of the giant monster,but the might of Russia and the west.The same applies here; the abandoned and isolated Palestinians cannot fight two super-powers ,a global and a regional.Furthermore,America cum Israel use the Palestinian resistance as an excuse to even further subjugate and punish them instead of aknowldging and granting their justful rights .Remember that the Israeli-American policy is to politicide the Palestinians (in the words of the late Baruch Kimmerling)that is to strip them off their national aspirations, for which aim the Zionist state was created by colonial Britain in the first place. Now,the Palestinians have no power on their side ,all powers (Egypt,Jordan,Saudi Arbia ect. )reneged to the side of the strong (America -Israel) .The only power that is about to stand for them is Iran ,which is a regional super-power in the making,intending to challenge Israel hegemony ,and that’s exactly why she is perceived a threat .America-Israel won’t accept anyone interfering with their supremacist regional hegemony.just remember what happened to the defiant Iraq ,and that was a lesson for everyone to take. In such an imbalanced situation ,where all power (even Arab regimes) is pitted against the Palestinians ,with Persia power only in the making yet, when Israel with impunity can inflict on the Palestinians not one Kristalnacht but 22 Nachten und Tagen, not a Guernica but 22 Guernicas,without anyone lifting a finger ,with the approval, if not outright instigation , of the Egyptian and PA presidents,what chance stand the poor under- nourished Gazans? Let me draw few opptions for further approach: 1) The Palestinians acquiece in their poor lot until a time when a new generation of Israeli ruling elite renounces Zionism and integrate the Palestinians into Israel-Palestine (including refugees) to creat the bi-national (or alternatively bi-ethnic)common state. Option 2)To accept the Bantustan solution, hoping to procede from there to either eventually fully integrate with Israel or create a federation and thereby become ecconomically viable.Now, in the global and post national world (if that’s where we are really heading)borders and the like don’t carry much import,and the Palestinians will have at last some peace ;(of course for a minute I don’t forget the plight of the refugees which must be redressed). As for the so called two- state solution within the borders of 1967 with a viabile Palestine ,almost everyone(excepting Shimon Peress) agrees is now long gone. So if what we are left with is a one state solution,when eventually Israel renounces its racist structure,to protect which she needs the fourth strongest army in the world,then either this solution comes through the front door or from the backdoor.But to go on spilling Palestinian blood is unacceptable and should avoided in all cost. Now,concerning the notion of collective guilt. I tent to agree with Uri Davis (uridavis.info) that there is no such thing and therefore we don’t hold the Germans guilty for the crimes of the Nazis. As for the responcibility of a society for crimes sanctioned by the government we don’t absolve the society , but remember that governments have the means to manipulate society as a collective body into all kinds of undertakings be it benevolent as peace or malignant as a carnage. In a racist apartheid that Israel is , the change is unlikely to come from below , that is by the people ; it has to come either from above, that is elite groups , or from international civil societies applying all the needed pressure on their governments ,(boycot and divestment included), to to bring pressure to bear on Israel-America , because the Palestians are strangling.

By: bozh

bozh — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:51:36 +0000

barry,
i don’t know why i failed to exclude from being guilty of nazi crimes those germans who were against nazis or wound up dead or in camps; it totally slipped my mind. thnx

By: Barry

Barry — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:13:49 +0000

I don’t know if all Germans are guilty. There are always millions of people, or more accurately, a goodly percentage of any population that is not politically cognizant – and those who just don’t have the intelligence or education to clearly assess matters. And then there are those who fight against the regime – or resist in some manner.

To my way of thinking, its those who were aware – and did nothing and said nothing – that can be considered guilty to varying degrees. Of course, those who carry out acts, or give commands, or look the other way when others are carrying out acts – are pretty much guilty. Book ‘em.

I think this applies to both Nazi Germany and Israel (and the pre-state colony). I, of course, agree on your list of perps – the list could be extended by thousands. I think it also applies to those in America – and that would especially include politically cognizant Jews – who instead of carrying out a duty to change the US relationship to Israel, defend Israel at any and all cost (to others). It does not apply to politically unaware Jews (or non-Jews) or those who to any degree work or talk or write or act or whatever to change the nature of the US/Israel relationship or Israel’s behavior.

In a nutshell – I don’t think everyone is guilty.

By: bozh

bozh — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:07:30 +0000

barry,
barring the apsolutes, all germans were guilty. the question arises, to what degree on a scale of 100C, each person is culpable.

but, generally speaking, a people believes to be true what the authority/litterati/illuminati/clergy tell them; it seems that most people don’t want to punish in any way the duped people.

even 90% + of israelis do not deserve any punishment. however, bengurion, dayan, meir,begin, sharon, peres, shamir, barak, ohlmert, netanyahu and many others shld stand trial for war crimes. thnx

By: Barry

Barry — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:25:32 +0000

Menashe – That’s a well-organized analysis – and pretty much on the money in my opinion. I would say, however, that you have under-analyzed the Palestinian psyche and their need to resist in every way possible (and not be singled out among all resistance movements as the one that needs to find a Gandhi). Palestinians have gone vast stretches of time without concerted violence – and have yet to gain a dunam for that. In fact, the West Bank was very quiet during Israel’s attack on Gaza – but the Israeli land expropriations went on uninterrupted. I think we all know from the 3rd Reich what non-violent resistance accomplished – pretty much nothing. Of course, had the Jews been able to organize a resistance, I think the results would have pretty much been the same. Truth is, violent Palestinian resistance has been minimal – and minimal for a long time. The rockets hardly constitute violent resistance. Yet the brainwashed Israeli Jews continue to vote to the right – truthfully speaking, they pretty much always have. Goldhagen’s thesis is that the German people were guilty – not just the Nazi Party. If that was true, then it is also true here. At some point the Jews of Israel have to throw off that yoke – they just cannot be excused interminably.

By: Barry

Barry — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:10:01 +0000

Gideon – Palestinians were not bargaining on any piece of Palestine. Palestine was of a piece – they rejected the rule of their colonizers and the imposition of European colonists. By having been on the winning side in WWI, the promise of freedom from foreign hegemony was explicit. That promise was betrayed. There was no need for Palestinians to negotiate for their own country – all of which rightfully belonged to them.

There is no smoking gun regarding Arab migration (and it would not be immigration – not under the Ottomans, and not regarding seasonal migration). But more importantly, Palestinians have inhabited Palestine since the Neolithic – they never left – so so-called Arab migration is not relevant.

By: mary

mary — Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:31:43 +0000

No thank you. I think the call for signatures which has gone out to the supporters of the entity has met the required response.

At the time the ‘petition’ was written, this was happening to the people in Gaza.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7817044.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7817926.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7819371.stm

By: Gideon

Gideon — Thu, 19 Feb 2009 06:02:00 +0000

The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine 1900 – 1947, numbers anybody?

By: Gideon

Gideon — Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:44:19 +0000

“Hamas leadership to be brought to trial for War Crimes”.
Protect Palestinians from Hamas.

Mary
You are invited to sign this petition
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/tap12009/petition.html