as for my grammar/spelling, it makes not much difference, to me, that it is incorrect if u understod the message. please forget about verbal brilliance; it is, to me, just a strategem.

If you’re not a native English speaker of course it would be arrogant to expect your grammar and spelling to be wonderful. If that’s the case, then I apologize. Although I should add that learning proper English is not that hard, it’s not my native language either, I know what I’m talking about.

But to say that “verbal brilliance” (I’d call it plain intelligble, coherent sentences) it’s just a strategem is pretty lame, reminds me of Creationists who say that the theory of evolution is just a strategy employed by unbelievers to detract from the fact that it all happened in seven minus one days. Besides, show a little self-respect by not talking/writing like a 13-year old. Again, if you are indeed of that age, I apologize and commend you on taking interest in matters such as these. We could do with more people taking part in political/historical discourse, even if we don’t agree. That’s democracy :)

Well, bozh did finally come up with this:

but you want only one answer! so here it is: pal’ns wld hug and kiss ?all israelis and celebrate peace.

Thank you. Either that’s supposed to be sarcastic, in which case you have my respect for at least making me laugh. If it’s not meant sarcastically then all that’s left is to pray. Too bad I’m not a theist.

So Ray: if you were a Palestinian, would you want your freedom?

Yes, of course I would have deluded myself into thinking that I’m a victim. Based on indoctrination by my faith and leaders I’d be frustrated by the fact that Palestine — which of course includes all of current Israel — is under the rule of the kuffar. I would fight with all my might to re-conquer taht particular part of Dar al-Harb, and be joyful at the prospect of sending as many Jewish pigs to Hell as possible while doing so. I’d love to become a martyr for that cause, since it has threefold advantages:

1. I get to Paradise immediately, and get to have an eternally lasting fuck fest with beautiful “wide-eyed” virgins.
2. I please Allah by blowing up Jewish apes along with myself.
3. As a martyr, I get to choose 70 (read: seventy) people who will be granted immediate entry to Paradise, too. That being a generous number, it should accommodate my family (well, maybe except for that uncle I always hated, or my mother-in-law) and all my buddies.

I would have no problems with this. Furthermore, I would have the last laugh seeing that yet more Western couch-potato revolutionaries (you know, the ill-informed type passionately spewing forth righteous indignation on Internet forums and blogs) salute and celebrate me and my brethren for finally having “justice” on my side.

Further demonstration of absurdity: If the polish jews were the nazis, and the nazis were the polish jews, don’t you think the polish jews (nazis) would exterminate the nazis (polish jews)?

Ray expresses old fallacy of false dichotomy: since one never wants to be the slave, one should always be the master.

Of course, a more advanced (less naive) way to understand things would be: since no one ever wants to be a slave, there should be no masters.

So Ray: if you were a Palestinian, would you want your freedom?

assumming only answer is yes, then how would you go about obtaining it?

but first a caveat? let us not be absolutist about evalauting that there is only one question and only one answer to your qustion or any issue.
every question contains a plethora of other questions; one is really opening a can of worms.

as for my grammar/spelling, it makes not much difference, to me, that it is incorrect if u understod the message. please forget about verbal brilliance; it is, to me, just a strategem.

if pal’ns had the power to utterly over power israelis, they may opt for at least three steps:
expell ?all ashk’c; possibly not all seph’c and miz’c jews.
then they cld demand that people like barak, ohlmert, et al be tried for war crimes.
then they cld kill at least several T criminals.
but you want only one answer! so here it is: pal’ns wld hug and kiss ?all israelis and celebrate peace.
tnx

Fail. Additional fail for spelling and grammar. I asked a simple question. Anyone out there who can give a simple, direct answer without any evasive tactics? Particularly, I’m not interested in your theories about the involvement of the U.S./the “West” etc. Just simply: Do you think, given the (obviously) hypothetical situation described above, that complete annihilation of Israelis would be unlikely if Palestinians had the technical and strategic means to bring that annihilation about?

even so, you assume that israelis don’t want to expell all pal’ns; they do but are unable to do this; US must first approve it and before that many oiless lands also must give their OK.
and, what, no OK for that from italy, belgium, france, germany, among others.

and if the roles were reversed wld judeo-christian bloc be for pal’ns?still against them! right? US especially! right?
so, rayo go back and give us more comparisons. tnx

If roles were reversed, i.e. if the Palestinians were in the Israeli’s position (including superior military power) and vice versa, how long do you think it would take before the Israelis would be wiped out 100%?

I believe Gideon refers to these farmers and workers as ‘Parsley’ people. They are Palestinians working on their own land.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Israeli Military Shoot Gaza Farmer – 18th February 2009 – Jenny

On Tuesday 27th January 2009, in Al Faraheen, Israeli forces shot at several farmers, killing 27 year old farm worker, Anwar al-Breem, Mohammed’s cousin.

Video by ISM Gaza Strip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSECq3kxT4I

On Wednesday, February 18, Israeli forces shot a twenty year-old Palestinian farmer as he worked his land in the village of Al-Faraheen, east of Khan Younis in the Gaza Strip.

International Human Rights Activists were accompanying the group of farmers at the time as they worked approximately 500m from the Green Line.

Mohammad al-Breem, 20, was shot in the right leg as the farmers, together with the international Human Rights Activists, attempted to leave the area having worked on their land for 2 hours in full view of the Israeli forces situated along the Green Line.

As the farmers were loading up the parsley and spinach from the agricultural lands shots were fired from Israeli forces on the border. Mohammad was shot in the right leg and evacuated, while still under fire, to hospital.

International Human Rights Activists have repeatedly witnessed Palestinian farmers being shot at by Israeli forces as they attempt to work on agricultural land situated within 700m of the Green Line.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Future: Economic development the only possible cure
Gaza Youth Buldge – who can handle the challenge?

Middle East demographics (source: Wikipedia 2005)
Gaza Jordan Egypt Syria Lebanon Israel
Birth Rate 3.95% 2.01% 2.29% 2.83% 1.89% 2.08
Fertility 5.19 2.63 2.83 2.73 1.92 2.9
GDP / Capita $600 $4,906 $5,495 $4,491 $11,279 $27,146

GAZA POPULATION:
1948 — 200,000
1967 – 280,000 – Growth rate 1.7%
2006 – 1,480,200 – Growth rate 8.7%
2005 -present – Growth rate 5%

Most analysts believe its unsustainable.

SocioEconomic view of Gaza Strip (before recent fighting) does not look good.
Yes Gaza residents lost most of well paying jobs in Israel and former Israeli settlements in Gaza.
Israeli have no incentive to employ people who are coming to murder them at their work places.

Gaza wanted independence, here you are independent.

Hamas is ABSOLUTELY accountable to Gazans for their well being: economic and security and carries full responsibility before it’s people.

A Difficult Future for the Gaza Strip
UN Chronicle
“Gaza is in a state of collapse. It cannot support the socio-economic needs of its population on its own territory”
“Since job creation is unlikely to keep pace with population growth in the Gaza Strip, he suggested that migration of workers–
and the remittances to their home country–were the best way to create stability in the territory”
“unless immediate and large-scale improvements are made to the economy in Gaza, unemployment levels are expected to rise
sharply over the next five years (from 30% to nearly 60%).”

You are naming nations, I’m naming people. Not confused anymore, are you?

This is the sort of vessel that the cowards put up against a little fishing boat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Dvora_Mk_III

From Free Gaza this morning.

Gazan coast becoming a ‘no-go’ zone
16th February, 2009

On Saturday 14th February, 23 year-old Rafiq abu Reala was shot by Israeli naval forces whilst fishing in Gazan territorial waters, approximately two nautical miles out from the port of Gaza city. He was in a simple fishing vessel, not much larger than a rowing boat, with a small outboard engine, known locally as a ‘hassaka’. Rafiq, his brother Rajab and another friend were following the course of a shoal of fish. A group of five more hassakas were out at the time, about a kilometre to the west of Rafiq’s boat, further out to sea. An Israeli naval gunboat approached the area and began shooting at the other hassakas, which quickly changed course and headed east, back towards shore.

Suddenly Rafiq realised the gunboat was bearing down on their hassaka. As he recounted the events of that day, Rafiq likened the predatory nature of the naval vessel to that of a wolf. It circled their fishing boat and began shooting heavy ammunition in their direction. The three terrified fishermen threw themselves down flat in the bottom of their boat. The Israeli captain ordered them via megaphone to raise their nets and leave the area. At this point the gunboat was less then 20 metres from Rafiq’s hassaka. The second time the gunboat came around no attempt was made to communicate with the fishermen. Rafiq was desperately pulling in the nets with his back facing the gunboat. An M-16 assault rifle was fired hitting him twice with explosive ‘dum-dum’ bullets, which peppered his back with shrapnel from the bullets themselves.

The force of the shots threw him in the water, plunging him down about six or seven metres below the surface. Rajab asked their friend to control the boat while he rescued Rafiq. Being a strong swimmer, he dived in after Rafiq and pulled him out of the water into the hassaka. However, Rafiq was unconscious by this time. The outboard was being slowed down by the weight of the nets so they headed towards another hassaka 300 metres away where they dumped the nets. The fishermen in this vessel had a mobile phone and made an emergency call. The stricken hassaka reached port at the same time as the ambulance arrived and Rafiq was taken to al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza city in a serious condition.

A couple of days later it was possible to visit Rafiq in hospital. He was weak and in a lot of pain, with some difficulty breathing, but was beginning to improve. His x-ray clearly indicated the presence of the bullet shrapnel between his shoulder and his spine. An enquiry regarding the possibility of surgery to remove the fragments was met with a solemn “no” from Rafiq’s uncle, present at his bedside, who explained, “The pieces are too many, too small and too widespread. His whole back would have to be opened up.” It is not only Rafiq’s back which has the metal shards still embedded in it; the shrapnel also penetrated his lungs. They sustained pulmonary contusions, resulting in a haemothorax. The only treatment Rafiq can benefit from at this time is to have blood drained which is collecting in the pleural cavity in the upper left side of his chest. 1.5 litres of blood was initially drained off when he was first admitted but this amount later decreased and stabilised. Medication is limited to painkillers and antibiotics.

It could take Rafiq months to fully recover yet he has a family to support. He married just six months ago and his wife is now expecting their first baby. After five years of working as a fisherman, he has experienced Israeli naval forces firing warning shots on many occasions but this was the first time he has been directly targeted. However, Rajab survived being shot in the chest by the Israeli navy two and a half years ago. It is sobering to note that 14 Gazan fishermen have been killed by the Israeli navy since 2000. Rafiq described the level shooting on Saturday like an open war. Fishermen were attacked from Wadi Gaza, south of Gaza city, all the way to the north of Gaza. A number of hassakas were targeted that day, some vessels sustaining serious damage from the shooting.

Palestinian fishermen have come under daily assaults from Israeli gunboats since Israel announced a unilateral ceasefire which supposedly came into force on 18th January. Reports of heavy gunfire and even missile fire are now becoming the ‘norm’. Rafiq is the third Gazan fisherman to be shot by the Israeli navy during this non-existant ceasefire. On 26th January, Alaa al-Habil was shot in the lower leg whilst trawling less than one nautical mile off the coast of Gaza. On 6th February, Mahmoud al-Nadar was shot in both legs whilst 1.5 nautical miles off the coast of Rafah in the south of the Gaza Strip. Nowadays it is unthinkable for fishermen to venture beyond three nautical miles from the Gazan coast, with many vessels staying just metres from the beach. However, Gazan territorial waters reach 12 nautical miles offshore – indeed, the Oslo Accords grant a fishing zone extending as far as 20 nautical miles.

Israel is attempting to create arbitrary ‘no-go’ zones in the sea – enforced solely by the gun. They might succeed if it weren’t for the resilience of the fishermen. All this is akin to what is happening on land. The Israeli Occupation Force has declared an area of Palestinian land a kilometre in from the Green Line a ‘closed military zone’, affecting an audacious land grab which threatens to swallow a vast swathe of rich agricultural land all the way along the eastern length of the Gaza strip.

International human rights observers are currently accompanying farmers determined to harvest their crops in one such area. In the months prior to Israel’s war on Gaza, members of ISM Gaza Strip were accompanying Palestinian fishermen on a regular basis and witnessed countless acts of Israeli military aggression against them whilst in Gazan territorial waters, despite a six-month ceasefire agreement holding at the time.

The international community remains silent about these daily violations of international human rights law. One cannot help wondering what an outcry there would inevitably be if the tables were turned and an Israeli civilian received similar injuries. Such an incident would scupper current negotiations attempting to broker a more genuine long-term ceasefire. Yet whilst it is Palestinian civilians who suffer such atrocities, the world gazes on, indifferent.

It will not please Gideon to read this piece from Ha’aretz on the fecundity of an Israeli family. Perhaps it might stop him making his racist remarks about the size of Palestinian families. Both cases are unsustainable in our over-populated world.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1064257.html

Since 2000: more than 10,750 Israeli civilians were targeted a and 10,750 civilian casualties would have been if 100% terrorist

attacks succeeded, based on Barry’s numbers.

It looks like all these Israeli security measures paying off!

Israeli CIVILIAN (women, children, elderly) casualties, DELIBERATELY targeted

by Palestinian terror attacks: 10,750

Palestinian total casualties: 6,258

THAT’S a RATIO of 1.7 “kill ratio in favor of Palestinians” as you call it.

Please ALL help me to make the necessary adjustments and answer a coupe of

preliminary questions about the composition of Palestinian casualties:

How many homicide bombers who blew themselves up?
How many killed themselves and any members of their families in explosives

accidents, both preparing and storing ammunitions?
How many were executed by Palestinians security forces (“colaborators”)?
How many killed in skirmishes between Hamas, PLO and other “fighters”?
How many women have been used as combatants?
How many children ( under age of 17) have been used as combatants?

This is not a full list, but it may help as a start to bring some clarity to the numbers.

Since 2000: 10,750 Israeli civilian casualties would have been if 100% terrorist attacks succeeded, based on Barry’s numbers.

It looks like all these Israeli security measures paying off!

Israeli CIVILIAN (women, children, elderly) casualties, DELIBERATELY targeted by Palestinian terror attacks: 10,750

Palestinian total casualties: 6,258

THAT’S a RATIO of 1.7 “kill ratio in favor of Palestinians” as you call it.

Please ALL help me to make the necessary adjustments and answer a coupe of preliminary questions about the composition of Palestinian casualties:

How many homicide bombers who blew themselves up?
How many killed themselves and any members of their families in explosives accidents, both preparing and storing ammunitions?
How many were executed by Palestinians security forces (“collaborators”)?
How many killed in scurmishes between Hamas, PLO and other “fighters”?
How many women have been used as combatants?
How many children ( under age of 17) have been used as combatants?

This is not a full list, but it may help as a start to bring some clarity to the numbers.