bozh
Yes, there is usually an imbalance of power which creates asymmetrical agreements. It takes “balls” to take a deal like that and work with what you got. Ben Gurion did it in 1947, taking huge risks on behalf of the Jewish people. It’s time to Palestinian people to do the same and close a deal of possible.

Israelis have a dream of peaceful Middle with free trade, open borders, tourism, …etc

Nothing like that existed in the Middle East since WWII or ever.

To accomplish this we need to drop all this rhetoric about European colonizers in the midst of Arab lands, accept Israel and start cooperating.

Unfortunately it may take four – five generations to accomplish this, after we start, and meanwhile a lot of pain, suffering, blood and tears.

Israel is not going anywhere!

If Arabs drop their weapons, there would be no war.
If Israel drops its weapons, there will be no Israel.

Best example of Peace: Egypt and Jordan.
Best example of deterrence: Syria.

That’s why in Israel power changes hands when the people are not happy with the results. Politicians are held accountable.
That’s the only call a citizen can make in a Democracy.

I hope the same can occur in Gaza.

Gaza is NOT occupied. We disagree on that.
The problem about this disagreement is not semantics or legal definitions, or what UN will eventually resolve.

The problem is that it was an earthquake event in the Israeli – Palestinian relations that took 24 years to mature and you for some reason fail to understand its gravity and its implications.

Implications are that now Gaza is free from occupation, Israelis watching carefully to see what will come out of it. Will it develop into a good neighbor or will it become a terrorist launch pad?

Gaza First is what Israelis are looking at.
A popular expression from Jerry McGuire movie:
“Show me the money!”

Economic development is the Key. It’s much more difficult to govern than launching kasams.

Gaza is has been experiencing the highest fertility in the World since 1967, under Israeli occupation, and achieved lower infant mortality rates than most of Arab countries in the region.

I guess Israel was doing something right

GAZA POPULATION:
1948 — 200,000
1967 – 280,000 – Growth rate 1.7%
2006 – 1,480,200 – Growth rate 8.7%
2005 -present – Growth rate 5%

Most analysts believe its unsustainable.

SocioEconomic view of Gaza Strip (before recent fighting) does not look good.
Yes Gaza residents lost most of well paying jobs in Israel and former Israeli settlements in Gaza.
Israeli have no incentive to employe people who are coming to murder them at their work places.

Gaza wanted independence, here you are independent.

Hamas is ABSOLUTELY accountable to Gazans for their well being: economic and security and carries full responsibility before it’s people.

A Difficult Future for the Gaza Strip
UN Chronicle
“Gaza is in a state of collapse. It cannot support the socio-economic needs of its population on its own territory”
“Since job creation is unlikely to keep pace with population growth in the Gaza Strip, he suggested that migration of workers–
and the remittances to their home country–were the best way to create stability in the territory”
“unless immediate and large‐scale improvements are made to the economy in Gaza, unemployment levels are expected to rise
sharply over the next five years (from 30% to nearly 60%).”

to get a balanced agreement btwn two belligerents or wld-be belligerents, a balance of power must exist.
even mighty germany had to accept a harsh diktat which was one of the causes for WW2.
the balance of power in arab-isr/US conflict is vastly in favor of the judeo-christian alliance; thus, no peace but continuing warfare.
why wld (unless it be moral) an alliance want peace and defend it with all its might when one can get more by avoiding it?

if it is a weakling who forces the issue, why arm self that much? why not be vastly weaker and spend the money on education, health, etc?
had the diktat to germany not been that harsh or had US not invaded europe in apr ’17, there wld not have been a ww2 or holocaust.

the patrician war wld have mots likely ended stalemated, having been so for 3 yrs and ended in an entirely different pact. but US, as it had done to japan, had to strongly defeat germany so that it wld not ever rise again as a superpower.
so, as we can see, at least US has learned a lesson form history; tho it cost a lot.
but the lesson maybe visited on US also. thnx

“Absolutely … And Meshal and his entire politburo, top members, were committed to that. To stop the rockets completely and to observe the cease-fire would open up the gates and let the people there have food, water, medicine and fuel.

“Hamas had offered to extend the cease-fire in December, but the Israelis were not willing to do it. I have met twice with Hamas leaders during this past year and both times that seems to be the only thing that they demanded – that there be no more attacks by either side, and that the crossings be opened, so that at least a moderate amount of food and water and medicine and fuel be permitted to come in to the people in Gaza.

“I don’t have any doubt that Gaza could be peaceful if the one and a half million people there could get adequate food and supplies and have access to the outside world. But when you imprison that many Palestinians, of all political persuasions, and deprive them of the basic necessities of life, and also of freedom to move back and forth between there and the West Bank – or there and Egypt, or there and Jordan, or there and the ocean – then you breed dissension and that dissension is going to be expressed in violence.”

In your opinion, why is Israel doing this?

“I don’t understand why. Unless it’s an attempt to punish the people in Gaza so badly that [they] will turn politically against Hamas. But I think that has proven to be a fallacy.”

Israel is still the only democracy in the region.

Now, if he will decide to take a teaching position in Palestinian University, he should better watch what he is saying or keep singing the same tune.

In Israel, he is just a guy with an opinion. Sorry Neve …

Reminds me a story: Democracy and Freedom of Speech
Israeli and Palestinian meet for a coffee.
Israeli: We have a democracy, I can stand in the middle of Jerusalem and criticize Israeli government as much as I want.
Palestinian: We also have a democracy, I can stand in the middle of Gaza and criticize Israeli government as much as I want.

2000.

Barry, I am using the numbers you provided.
The only assumption I make, that you can verify on your own, is that 10% of terrorist acts targeting innocent Israeli

civilians succeed. What do you think the percentage is?

It is all about intent!
If all, 100% of attempts to murder innocent Israeli civilians were succesful, the number would have been 10, 750.
So who should get credit for saving 9,675 lives ?
Definitely not Palestinians! Their declared objective still is to maximize the number of Israeli civilian casualties.

It’s all about intent!
Innocent Palestinian civilians were killed unintentionaly in Israeli military operations.

Whatever that number is, after making all the adjustments to be based on your responses, it demonstrates the real “Kill Ratio” which looks like more that 2 Israelis to every Palestinian.

So what do you make of the January ’09 UN pronouncement regarding the illegal occupation of Gaza?

So you think that Israel should drive out dissident voice Neve Gordon from Israel? A little bit of your 3rd Reich side showing, maybe? It is what Israel did to Ilan Pappe. And it should be needless to say, about a million Palestinians, the native natural inhabitants of Palestine.

It looks like all these Israeli security measures really paying off!

Barry
So the tally would be (based on your number):

Israeli CIVILIAN (women, children, elderly) casualties, DELIBERATELY targeted by Palestinian terror attacks:
10,750

Palestinian total casualties:
6,258

THAT’S a RATIO of
1.7 – “kill ratio in favor of Palestinians” as you call it.

Now, Barry you know the numbers. Please help me to make the necessary adjustments and answer a coupe of simple preliminary questions about the composition of Palestinian casualties:

1. How many homicide bombers who blew themselves up?
2. How many killed themselves and any members of their families in explosives accidents, both preparing and storing ammunitions?
3. How many were executed by Palestinians security forces (“colaborators”)?
4. How many killed in scurmishes between Hamas, PLO and other “fighters”?
5. How many women have been used as combatants, homicide bombers?
6. How many children ( under age of 17) have been used as combatants, homicide bombers?

This is not a full list, but it may help as a start to bring some clarity to the numbers.

“Active citizenship” is the philosophy that citizens should work towards the betterment of their community through economic participation, public service, volunteer work, and other such efforts to improve life for all citizens.

The legally enforceable duties of citizenship : paying taxes, serving on a jury, serving in the country’s armed forces when called upon, obeying the criminal laws.

Yisrael Beiteinu – Israeli party
http://www.beytenu.org/107/2193/article.html
A part of their platform that I found on their website is:
“The desire to see the introduction of a new citizenship law that would require citizens to affirm their loyalty to the State and readiness to serve in the army or in the National Service in order to be eligible for any state benefits”

Moz, as I understand it, it’s universal for every Israeli citizenship.
Now in US any legal immigrant, at naturalization ceremony has to swear allegiance:
“support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”

Some estimate that over 10% of USA population are non citizens ( some legal residents who never applied for citizenship for their own reasons).They can’t vote (even in local municipal elections), can’t work for the government, can’t apply for benefits and still have to pay taxes.

What if :
So let’s say, for the illustration purposes, that USA to pass a legislation that every American has to pledge an oath of allegiance, those who refuse will loose their citizenship. They will continue being residents. Now will it be constitutional in US? I do not know.

If similar legislation to pass in Israel, Mr. Neve may loose his citizenship if he refuses to pledge allegiance to the state of Israel.

Moz
If you do not support Performance-based Road Map, would you come up with another proposal and then obtain the support of all the parties to use it as a basis for negotiations?
Would that be a step backward and require more time then to start with a document that has been accepted?
Remember this is a “Road Map” to serve as a basis to negotiations.

Your agreement Neve’s and Barry’s opinion about the “central components” is absolutely legitimate. I argue that reasonable people can disagree with this opinion.

Neve’s analysis is not a mere opinion. It is a considered judgment of someone who is tired of the lies, tired of the murder, tired of having no future.

“All in all, Neve Gordon’s analysis is in keeping with what reasonable people think is the correct tact to take – for the sake of Palestinians and for all of us, even Israelis.” I would concur.

To address the 2002 roadmap, if it were truly performanced based for BOTH sides then I would support it. Like if there was a sanction for the expansion of settlements, house demolitions etc.

Phil
I am sure I understood your position.
Do you support or object to the Road Map?

Author’s “three components to two-state solution” is just his opinion or a view of a group he is identified with and should be made clear as such in the article. Otherwise he could stop writing and start posting like all of us.

Bary
Thanks for clarifying that Neve’s “three components to two-state solution” in this article is his opinion and/or opinion of people who agree with his reasoning , as you put it “what (you believe) reasonable people think is the correct act to take”.

bozh
You should ask Neve directly: are you stating an agreement between parties or is it a position of one side or an idea of some group or what?
I do not challenge his domain of knowledge, I challenge his presentation of opinion as a fact.

If you read the article, you may have notices this passage:
“Yisrael Beiteinu, for example, ran under the banner of “no citizenship without loyalty,” and would like to strip any person who is critical of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians of their citizenship. People like me.”
My question was and still is:
Under what proposed conditions Neve’s Israeli citizenship may be revoked?

You are welcome to help the author to illustrate this scenario to all of us! I would really like to hear it …. A distinguished professor should have the domain expertise necessary to demonstrate it to us.

We are on Dissident Voice? Are we? Maybe you should start participating in “Yes Man Voice” site? I notice you applaud every article published here. If the author can’t stand a critique of his writing he should not publish.

On the land swaps – the Palestinians have to be clear that the swaps are under duress because it is very clear in international law that Israel is entitled to nothing beyond the pre-67 borders accepted by the world. There has been some talk of Israel taking the prime land it has been putting its colonists on in exchange for swampy Israeli-polluted wasteland behind Gaza. That won’t do. Palestinians should insist on the Galilee.

Regarding right of return it is paramount that Israel recognize that the Yishuv/Israel created that situation. A semi-fair solution might be that any of the remaining original 700,000 refugees or a descendent be restored to their land and property in Israel. The remaining refugees will receive generous compensation (and don’t think that Israeli accountants have not already been employed to figure it out – and downsize it) and the right to immigrate to the new State of Palestine.

All in all, Neve Gordon’s analysis is in keeping with what reasonable people think is the correct tact to take – for the sake of Palestinians and for all of us, even Israelis. Big wrench in the works – I don’t think we can count on Obama/Clinton to do the necessary chore of sitting on Israel.

A politics lecturer, in Israel, obviously does not have a clue Gideon.

Of course, as moral arbiter you feel she has no place teaching because, as we are all learning, Gideon really has all the answers. As she states, her suggestions are the key points from numerous initiatives through the years, but no matter, she isn’t singing your tune and she should be removed!

“Could you please explain to us under what proposed conditions your Israeli citizenship may be be revoked?”

Are YOU an Israeli Gideon? Is dispostion of citizenship and human rights how you solve all your problems?

What do you come here for? Simply to talk trash about the author?