Are Palestinians Allowed to Resist?

The issue of Palestinian resistance, in terms of its permissibility and types, is a highly inflammatory question for most Western observers. Mainstream media discourse frequently boils down to criticisms and condemnations of its “violence” or alternatively, asserts its impotence in the face of Israeli military might and Western opposition. It might therefore be helpful to place it in historical and current context and to comparatively evaluate it against that other famous struggle for independence, Indian national liberation. India’s struggle, given the prominent role of Gandhi’s satyagraha’s role, is usually synonymous in Western discourse with non-violent resistance.

This first part in the essay deals with legal and historical issues that define Palestinians’ struggle for independence, then describes their repercussions on the current status of the occupation. In the second and final part, I will present examples from the history of Palestinian unarmed struggle and then compare it with the Indian one. I will argue that the agreeable and reasonable sounding frame of the superiority of peaceful resistance sets up a false dichotomy. Presenting satyagraha as the exemplary approach to liberation is deceptive on two levels. First, India’s independence was not achieved through non-violence alone. And second, while inspirational and useful on many levels, it is not sufficient as sole guide or solution to achieving Palestinian liberation.

The Prevailing Western Mainstream Media Perspective on Palestinian Resistance Today

Language and the framing of issues is always the privilege of the strong. This applies to international and legal attitudes concerning national liberation movements. At the height of their occurrence in the 1960s and 1970s, there was an international consensus on the necessity and legal right of oppressed people living under colonial and/or racist states to resist their status by any means available to them, including armed conflict. However, since the 1980s, there has been a shift away from focusing on ultimate legitimate goals of national liberation to a discussion of methods. Concomitantly, there was an interjection of a growing set of rules of military engagement that the international community wanted to apply to even non-state actors who were fighting for their independence. Israel, being a colonial and ethnically-based state and seeking to curb the use of armed struggle against itself, is in the camp that marks as “aggression” and “terroristic” any and all active resistance to its occupation of Palestinian land. Thus in terms of language and its function in rationalizing or justifying events, there is a sharp contrast between descriptions of “armed conflict” depending on which side of the aisle one is on: on the one hand, “national liberation movements” and “freedom fighters” and on the other, “terrorists” and “pre-emptive strikes.”

The justice of the initial demands for independence is frequently obscured by the legalistic focus on the means of inducing change. Moreover, international institutions, like the Security Council or the General Assembly of the United Nations or the International Court of Justice did not develop the means (or the will — in the case of the Palestinians) to enforce the legitimate claims of colonized peoples, or to punish states, like Israel, that place themselves above the application of basic legal and ethical principles. In a sense, this shift in focus is a regression to more imperial / colonial attitudes of the past.

It is a frustrating endeavor to peel away obscurantist assumptions and pervasive and intentional misdirection to arrive at the truth. Keeping in mind that Gandhi defined satyagraha as to hold on to the truth, the most basic reality for the Palestinians is that they are dispossessed, displaced, occupied, oppressed and most recently, massacred in Gaza. But most Western media coverage ignores some basic background facts that constitute the basis of the problem and which I will review briefly below. Ignoring the root causes renders incomprehensible to the casual observer Palestinians’ resistance, thereby facilitating their designation as stereotypical “terrorists.”

Historical Background of Palestinian Plight

Palestinian dispossession started under the British Mandate, which “got” Palestine from the dismantled Ottoman Empire after World War I. The Balfour Declaration (1917) established a national “home” for the Jews in Palestine and disregarded the wishes of the “non-Jewish communities.” While the latter was the overwhelming majority, and despite promises of “non-prejudice” to their “rights,” they were considered not significant enough to warrant that the colonizer ask their opinion about the “giving” of their homeland to an imported ethnic and religious group. In addition, British troops had not even set foot in Palestine yet. Thus Britain contradicted the legal maxim nemo dat quod non habet, meaning no one can give that which he has not. But being a superpower at the time, ordinary laws did not apply to itself. And the “promise” in the Balfour Declaration was incorporated into the Mandate by the League of Nations, which promptly validated this gift, even though the League did not possess Palestine either. The League also overlooked its inconvenient commitment to the right of self- determination for peoples originally inhabiting a land.1

Zionist actions to actively dispossess and remove Palestinians from their lands, exemplified in Plan Dalet, led to the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 people and created a majority Jewish area just in time for the declaration of the Israeli state in 1948. The dispossession both preceded and was concurrent with the war. The Palestinians’ legal right of return was reaffirmed more than one hundred times by the United Nations. But Israel placed itself above international law and passed The Prevention of Infiltration/Offenses and Jurisdiction Law in the Knesset in 1954. The defining of who is an “infiltrator” is instructive in explaining the violence and injustice done to the Palestinians, who were denied their legal right to return: the third definition for “infiltrator” in the law is a “Palestinian citizen or a Palestinian resident without nationality or citizenship or whose nationality or citizenship was doubtful and who, during the said period left his ordinary place of residence in an area which became a part of Israel for a place outside Israel.”2 Later in 1967, the Israeli state expanded again and encompassed the rest of natural Palestine. The reason that there is an occupation in the new territory is simple. The Zionist enterprise, all proclamations to democracy not-withstanding, could not incorporate/digest the newly acquired territories without reducing the majority Jewish composition, thereby exposing the non-democratic, ethnocentric and racist premise of the state.

Evaluation of Losses and Achievements

The facts are simple enough. And yet that is not at all how current media narratives present the struggle. It is never referred to as one for liberation and freedom. Resistance to the oppressive occupation and to the expansionist and dispossessing Israeli state is never presented as a right, despite the self-evident moral and legal principle, that as the (occupying) aggressor, Israel cannot justify violence against resistance to its own initial aggression.3 And yet, in this last massacre, Gazans who are starving, imprisoned, mostly refugees from the original displacement that happened with Israel’s creation, and who have qualitatively modest (but technologically improving — distance/reach) weapons, are the ones being blamed for “starting” or inviting the attack on themselves. This is objectionable on several levels. Fundamentally, the framing of the story that equates Palestinian resistance with the fourth strongest army in the world is inherently deceptive. Additionally, it blames the victim for resisting annihilation.

But once again, because it is the strong who determine what is legal and what is not, the Palestinian struggle for national liberation and their resistance against their oppressors are illegal by definition and are presented as “terrorism.” The right of self-defense has been appropriated by the dominant, occupying, aggressing side and simultaneously denied to its victims. It is becoming increasingly apparent to the resisting Palestinians that this excessive use of legality is simply a means to preserve pre-existing power asymmetries that will perpetuate their oppression. It is ultimately aimed at their extinction as a people. It is the root cause of their resistance: for they refuse a peace built on injustice, no matter how much misinformation is produced disguise the facts.

The Oslo Peace Process must be evaluated from this perspective. It was started more than 15 years ago but has led to no tangible benefits for the Palestinians. On the contrary, it has led to their increasing dispossession and subjugation. It co-opted the PLO leadership and made the Palestinian Authority into a police arm of and chief appeaser/concessor to Israel, the occupier. The Process has served as legal cover for continued oppression. It is no different from the NATO announcement to “protect” Israel, or the Rice-Livni Accords, or the United Nations Resolutions that are never enforced.

All these entities and agreements give a cover of multilateralism and legality to what is essentially aggressive expansionism and intentional dispossession. Similarly, Israel’s “withdrawal” from Gaza in 2005, narratively presented in mainstream media with so much angst for the trauma of the occupier, does not remove the initial aggression of the original and consistently brutal occupation. Even when one allows for the prison that is Gaza to be considered “unoccupied,” the fact remains that Palestinians are one people and that the West Bank and East Jerusalem continue to be occupied. This is even acknowledged in the Oslo Accords, which defines them as “a single territorial unit.”

Moreover, Israeli expansionism continues, and even accelerates, in the shadow of the peace process and of the headline- grabbing events in Gaza. Just in the last week, Israel has announced the annexation of extensive areas of Palestinian-owned land, where the villagers have been non-violently protesting the apartheid wall. For three days the Israeli army invaded the village of Jayyous declaring it a “Closed Military Area” and arbitrarily arrested 65 Palestinians: “The Israeli wall confiscated about 600 dunums of lands and 8,600 dunums were isolated behind the wall, where the town’s area is 12,500 dunums,” leading to the loss of thousands of jobs lost as a result of the wall and the isolation of agricultural land.4 Similarly, on 1/26/2009, the Israeli High Court approved the complete destruction of the village of Tana, east of Nablus, in order to expand the settlement colony of Makhurah.5 In addition, an expansion to the Effrat settlement colony near Bethlehem was also announced, swallowing an additional 170 hectares of “state land.”6 All this is happening in the West Bank, ostensibly the co-operating segment under the dictatorial and oppressive control of the Palestinian Authority. And it is definitely not conducive to economic independence, let alone the mirage of prosperity that was promised to come with the pursuit of a negotiated and non-violent “settlement.”

The argument is frequently made that Hamas is a “terrorist organization” because it targets civilians. But that is a question that is both not for the militarily strong to ask and also ignores completely Israel’s far greater and more consistent targeting of civilians. In this last attack on Gaza, despite an earnest and far reaching hasbara/propaganda effort by Israel to change perceptions, the extent of the destruction was too blatant to repress. Any fair assessment of damage to civilians will plainly see the disproportionate suffering of the weaker party. It also must account for the slow strangulation and eradication of Palestinians even when there is no “war.” The means of destruction are so entrenched and persistent so as to become too banal for Western media to report on. The “targeted assassinations” that inevitably kill civilians, the ever-growing “settlements”/colonies, the land expropriations, the apartheid “separation” Wall, the roadblocks, the economic blockade and de-development, and so forth have effectively ended any hope of a two state solution. In fact, the Palestinians’ pursuit of the peaceful route of “settlement” through the peace process, recently “negotiated” at Annapolis, has resulted in a 20% increase in settlement expansion in the West Bank and a 36% settlement expansion in East Jerusalem, just in the last sixteen months.6

The Oslo Peace Process has essentially reached a dead end. Remember that it was launched after the First Intifada proved that a militarily powerful actor could not defeat Palestinian grassroots resistance. Hence, Israel’s resort to “settlement” and its reliance on the native enforcer, in the form of the Palestinian Authority. But that too failed. The endless peace process has been unable to accomplish the main (colonialist/racist) goal that gave it life: namely, to convince the Palestinians that they are defeated and are rightfully Untermenschen in the legally still border-less Zionist state.

Taken to its ultimate logical and counter-intuitive conclusion, this will eventually (and in fact has already started to) call into question the viability of a Zionist Israel in the long term. Increasingly, Israel’s own success in oppressing its Other has left it with two equally non-palatable options: either transition into an equal society or dismantle the colonialist enterprise. Its current choice of apartheid separation and oppression is demographically, morally, ethically, and in time, technologically unstable and unacceptable going forward.

  1. For an extensive discussion of this topic, see, Musa E. Mazzawi, Palestine and the Law: Guidelines for the Resolution of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Garnet & Ithaca Press, 1997: pp. 21-23. []
  2. Ibid, p. 178. []
  3. For a broader discussion of this issue, see Michael Mandel, “Israel’s Unjust War on Gaza: Self-Defense Against Peace,” Counterpunch, 2/5/2009 []
  4. Israeli forces seize 65 youths in Jayyus in third day of mass arrest,” Maan News Agency, February 18, 2009. Also, for a broader perspective (Arabic), visit here. []
  5. Tiny URL []
  6. TINY URL [] []

Dina Jadallah-Taschler is an Arab-American of Palestinian and Egyptian descent, a political science graduate and is also an artist. She can be reached at: Dina.Jadallah.Taschler@gmail.com. Read other articles by Dina, or visit Dina's website.

42 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. Gideon said on February 26th, 2009 at 10:26am #

    Terrorism: Hamas Deliberately and Indiscriminately Targets Civilians, by DESIGN!
    That’s Terrorism not Resistance.

    Self defense is a universal right. When someone comes to kill you, defend yourself, plea…ase.

    More than that, I encourage Hamas military wing (excluding those between the ages of 14-17 and women homicide bombers) to get out of their holes and from behind the skirts of their mothers, wives and sisters and DEFEND themselves and show some RESISTANCE against Israeli soldiers entering Gaza territory.

    And while you “o, brave martyrs” defend yourselves, leave the children and elderly alone, take 600 steps away, in any direction from any school, mosque, house, water pipe, humanitarian aid warehouse and definitely any UN facility and than have all the Defending / Resistance you desire!

    And please while you at it, put on your Hamas uniform that we have seen you wear with such pride at the filmed Hamas parades, so we all can appreciate your RESISTANCE.

    Dina
    Now that’s RESISTANCE!

    Deliberate and Indiscriminate Targeting of Civilians with Intent to Maximize Killing of Civilians is TERRORISM and has nothing to do with RESISTANCE!

  2. bozh said on February 26th, 2009 at 12:33pm #

    targetting civilians may be classed as “terrorism”. even partisans of ex-yugoslavia have slain young women who went out with italian officers.
    most of the time partisans wld shave the heads of the wayward girls and later wld make good partisans of them.
    however, israel does much more of targeting civilians than pal’ns.
    according to reports i have read, Israeli soldiers routinely and from close range shoot children, farmers; abducts adults, jailing them for yrs w.o. charging them with any crime.

    of course, demolishing homes, plowing under fields, stealing land may be sorted as targeting civilians.
    are israeli shootings deliberate? am i gonna read a criminal’s mind?
    does any one in US ask whether a robber had shot a shopkeeper deliberately? natch, most robbers claim that the gun went off or that victim was going for own gun or shooting at the robber.

    firing missiles into bulidings is done to maximize damage and number of casualties.
    and as gazan massacre has shown, the massacre had not improved safety of the israelis nor contributed to its security or gained land [in gaza]
    about using shields? how’s a missile to protect a fighter? wldn’t he lose also his family? how can a fighter shoot while inside or behind a woman’s skirt. the least a woman cld do is take off her skirt; hopefully, for decency sake, left pink panties on.
    my devil, what fighters these gazans are! thnx

  3. Gideon said on February 26th, 2009 at 2:34pm #

    Hamas Children Soldiers (14-17 old)? How about children homicide bombers?

    The newspaper: Kul Al-Arab
    Hamas using children in combat support roles.

    A child in Gaza describes how he and other children are being used in combat support roles for Hamas fighters. According to the Palestinian child, children are being used as scouts to follow Israeli movements, and as couriers to supply ammunition and deliver information to the Hamas fighters.

    The following is the description of the children combat support roles, quoted:

    Khaled, from A-Rimal [in Gaza], said: ‘We the children, in small groups and in civilian clothes, are fulfilling missions of support for the [Hamas] Resistance fighters, by transmitting messages about the movements of the enemy forces, or by bringing them ammunition and food. ‘”
    [Kul-Al-Arab (Israeli Arab weekly), January 9, 2009]

    bozh
    “routinely and from close range shoot children”
    Can you back it up?

  4. bozh said on February 26th, 2009 at 3:15pm #

    gideon,
    your right, i haven’t seen soldiers or settlers shoot anybody under 17.
    as i said, numerous eye witnesses have reported such shootings.
    at close range? well how about 10-30 meters? or on occasion even closer?

    however, whatever the facts, shooting or not shooting children, the most important facts and basics are universally known.
    also the conclusion that the ‘jewish’ state can only be obtained if all pal’ns are expelled.

    any ideas why Israel had not done it already? it is not that 98% of israelis don’t wish araberfrei state?

    yrs ago i asked chomsky what was stopping israel form expelling pal’ns, he wrote back saying that the ‘jews’ fear world opinion.
    i did not evaluate that as true and still don’t. thnx

  5. Barry said on February 26th, 2009 at 3:57pm #

    Hey Gideon – Here’s a partial list from just one year (2006) of children killed by Israel. Why don’t you peruse it and get back to me on which ones you think are close range murders, medium range murders, and long-range murders. If you like I can narrow or widen the parameters and take in some or all years of the Intifada. Oh, one more thing. Who commits the bulk of these close range murders? Israel high-school grads – teenagers. Israeli children are inculcated from birth with the notion that when they graduate HS they get to go abroad and kill the babies and children of non-Jews. Its a fine culture.

    23 January 2006
    Munadel Muhammad Saleh abu-Elia, 13, of al-Mughayer, near Ramallah, killed by IDF gunfire to his back.

    19 February 2006
    Ibrahim Muhammad Ahmad al-Shiekh Ali, 16, of Balata refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire to his neck while standing on the roof of his home during an incursion.

    3 March 2006
    Amr Hasan Hasan Basiouni, 16, of Ayn Beit al-Ma refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire to his face while on the roof of his home during an incursion

    17 March 2006
    Akaber Abdul-Rahman Izzat Zayd, 9, of Yamoun, near Jenin, killed by IDF gunfire to her head while riding in her uncle’s car to get medical stitches removed during an incursion.

    3 April 2006
    Muhammad Farid Hasan Zayed, 15, of Kalandya refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire to his abdomen while running away from an army jeep.

    10 April 2006
    Hadeel Muhammad Rabih Abdullah Ghaben, 8, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling to her head while doing homework in her home.

    20 July 2006
    Muhammad Awad Muhammad Muhra, 14, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by IDF sniper fire to his chest.

    25 July 2006
    Ashraf Abdullah Awad abu-Zaher, 14, of al-Qarara, near Khan Younis, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his back while tending his family’s agricultural land.

    26 August 2006
    Muntasser Suleiman Muhammad Akka, 15, of Askar refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire to his back while throwing stones at IDF bulldozers destroying a building in Nablus.

    6 September 2006
    Ismael Majed Hamdan abu-Ruk, 15, of Khuzah, near Khan Younis, Gaza, killed by IDF sniper fire to his chest while on his roof during an incursion.

    21 September 2006
    Ala Saqer Dahrouj abu-Dahrouj, 15, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while herding sheep.
    Zidan Rafiq Muhammad abu-Rashid, 16, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while herding sheep.
    Muhammad Selmi Muhammad Masalha, 17, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while herding sheep.

    3 November 2006
    Ahmad Ismael Sahweel, 15, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his chest during a demonstration.
    Hamza Muhammad Ayub Karsua, 17, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his chest during a demonstration.
    Hamdi Ramadan Muhammad Abdul-Dayem, 16, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his chest near his home during a demonstration.

    4 November 2006
    Ibrahim Jamal Hasan al-Bassiuni, 17, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, died of wounds sustained Nov. 3 from IDF helicopter fire during an incursion.
    Muhammad Ibrahim Abed Balousha, 15, of Gaza City, killed by IDF gunfire to his head.
    Walah Talal Abdul-Karim Nasr, 13, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to her head while trying to escape bulldozers destroying her home.

    Nimer Muhammad Ali abu-Nadia, 17, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his chest.

    18 November 2006
    Thaer Hasan Abed al-Masri, 17, of Bedouin village, near Beit Layha, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his neck and chest while farming near his home during an incursion.

    22 November 2006
    Adham Khaled al-Sahabani, 17, of Gaza City, killed by IDF gunfire to his head while riding in a car.

    24 November 2006
    Abdul-Aziz Salman Muhammad Salman, 10, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed by IDF tank fire to his abdomen while playing by al-Zawia mosque.

    3 December 2006
    Jamil Abdul-Karim Jamil Jabji, 5, of Askar refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire from a jeep to his head while throwing stones.

    19 December 2006
    Doa Nasr Saleh Abdul-Qader, 13, of Faroun, near Tulkarm, killed by IDF gunfire from a jeep to her chest and hand while going to visit her friend’s grandmother near the annexation wall.

  6. Gideon said on February 26th, 2009 at 4:01pm #

    Haneen Zoubi: “I want to be a full Israeli citizen”! Jewish state with thriving Arab minority is a Reality.

    There is a broad support for establishment of a Palestinian state while assuring secure Israel.

    A young Palestinian state, when established, should bring an end to ALL grievances and should encourage Palestinians to choose economic development.

    This can be a turning point in the life of Palestinians and the Middle East

    Members of Israeli Arab community, can then decide if they want to continue living as minority in Israel or fulfill their national aspirations in the new Palestinian state.

    Anyway, Israeli Arab community will have an amazing opportunity to become the builder of the economic and cultural bridges between Palestine and Israel.

    bozh: Does it answer your question?

  7. Barry said on February 26th, 2009 at 4:10pm #

    Gideon – Can’t resist this one. Fifteen year old sheepherder killed by colonist for the crime of riding his donkey on a Jews-only Apartheid road. Hey, what did you think Gideon, that no one keeps track of what you’ve done?

    7 April 2008

    Sharif Bajas Farid Eshtayeh, 15, of Salem, near Nablus, killed by an Israeli settler bus while riding a donkey and shepherding livestock on a settler by-pass road to the Alon Moreh settlement that crosses the Beit Dajan Plain.

  8. Suthiano said on February 26th, 2009 at 4:16pm #

    Gideon is such a sophist I never address him directly. I’ve met people like him before: all intellect, nothing else. It’s basically the personality type that has been present in the largest murderers in the world. Kissinger comes to mind, as does someone like Robert McNamara.

    POwerful post Barry…

    Bozh, Gideon tried to answer your question. As soon as Palestinians are ready to accept a leader who wants to work with U.S. and Israel to create the economic conditions desirable in the region, then they can have their freedom.

    Or to put it differently: When the Palestinians are ready to accept “our way” then they will be allowed to pursue their own way… As soon as you play by our rules, we’ll let you play!

    Thanks! You’re so just!

    Fucking sophists.

  9. Gideon said on February 26th, 2009 at 4:23pm #

    Hamas Rocket Launch Base: 100 meter radius from the location of Rocket Launcher.

    How many Palestinians were killed in explosives accidents, rivals skirmishes, local executions and within Rocket Launch Bases?

    How many Palestinian children on Barry’s list were killed while performing combat support roles?

    How many of them were granted the status of Martyr after their death?

    Barry: you mentioned before you have your sources …
    Please provide additional information about each event so we all can review it in context.
    What military “Resistance” activity was conducted prior and at the time of eachevent, who was involved?
    Also please provide your sources and who and when established the cause of death.

  10. bozh said on February 26th, 2009 at 4:31pm #

    gideon,
    you have skirted my questions. instead of answering or not answering my questions, you suply us with your wishes or even predictions.

    the first question is, Why hasn’t israel expelled pal’ns?
    the other question wld be, Do not about 95%+ israelis [ and possibly same pct of world jewry] wish- and some actually say it- to expell ?all pal’ns?
    leaving a few as a symbol of ‘jewish’ kindness akin the one by US towards reds?

    and we all know that second state is no longer available having been shredded with intent to, i deduce, to render it unviable and under threat for decades.

  11. Suthiano said on February 26th, 2009 at 4:44pm #

    red herrings red herrings red herrings.

    Gideon the sophist bows before the red herring.

  12. Gideon said on February 26th, 2009 at 4:55pm #

    Children road traffic death: 260,000 a year. 718 children per day. More children dies on the roads than in military conflicts.

    More than 260 000 children and teenagers die from a road traffic injury each year. That is about 718 children per day. Approximately 10 million more are non-fatally injured. About 40% are pedestrians.

    Barry: every life lost is a whole world lost. Sharif Bajas Farid Eshtayeh death in a traffic accident is unfortunate, but so it the lost of life of 718 children on the roads every day.

  13. Suthiano said on February 26th, 2009 at 5:05pm #

    GIDEON=RED HERRING

    GIDEON IS A FALLACIOUS REASONER!

    GIDEON IS A SOPHIST!

  14. bozh said on February 26th, 2009 at 5:05pm #

    suthiano,
    i am aware of the subterfuge that some people use to defend israeli crimes; they dwell mostly on peripheral issues or choose only one fact or ‘fact’ and work sollely on it.

    i am refuting his fallacies because of new readers or readers who might decide to be for israel having heard just one fact or even nonfact.

    gideon and people like him feel the issue; they cannot evaluate properly the facts that show israel wrong or being criminal.

    gideon may be a christian or a ‘jew’, who learned in childhood that arabs/muslims are bad and ‘jews’ noble, light onto the world, chosen, always right, etc.
    thnx.

  15. Gideon said on February 26th, 2009 at 5:18pm #

    Palestinian self determination: Palestine, Jordan and Egypt or 23 Arab states? It’s up to Palestinians.
    Israeli Arabs made up their mind.

    bozh
    “Why hasn’t israel expelled pal’ns?”
    Israeli society does not support it. Israel is a Democracy and has a rainbow of opinions.

    “Do not about 95%+ Israelis ….?”
    No.

    Now, Israelis would have loved to see the Arab world follow its lead and absorb Palestinian refugees since 1949, instead of letting them suffer in refugee camps.

    Israel absorbed about 700,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

    But what can you do? It does not look that the Arab league was taking its lead from Israel in the last 60 year.

  16. Barry said on February 26th, 2009 at 6:38pm #

    Funny guy, Gideon. You asked for ‘back-up’ on the assertion that Israelis kill children and farmers from close range. So I gave it to you. Now you are just babbling. But I’m thinking you are right about 5 year old Jamil, shot from a jeep for throwing stones – he was definitely in a combat support role. And, if you must know, it is suspected that 8-year old Hadeel was not really doing homework when she she was killed by the IDF. She was really a double agent for Hamas pretending to be with Fatah – killed by the IDF at home while completing a report for the secret dossier. THAT was little Hadeel’s homework.

    Now what were you saying about the ‘right to resist?’ I think you said you believe in it, no? Uh, all these kids – OK, baby Jihadists and double-agents, were killed in Palestine. So the Israeli right to resist includes shooting children in Palestine? You are a rather generous person, aren’t you.

    Hey, while I have your attention. I had mentioned some stuff about Zionist cooperation with the Nazis in the 30s, then I dropped the ball on it to talk about other things. But here’s a couple-o tidbits for you.

    One aspect of the Nuremberg Laws was that from September 1935 on – only two flags were permitted to be flown in Nazi Germany – the Swastika, and the blue and white Zionist banner. Thus Zionism became the only other legal party in the Third Reich.
    Some 60% of all capital invested in Palestine from 1933-39 was channelled thru agreements with the Nazis. As part of the deal the World Zionist Organization began soliciting customers for Germany. Eventually the Zionists began exporting Palestinian oranges to Belgium and Holland using Nazi ships – and by 1936 began selling Hitler’s goods in Britain.

    Anything for a buck, ya know.

  17. Gideon said on February 26th, 2009 at 9:48pm #

    Gaza children deaths: Bad Parenting, Culture of Death, Pay to Play or Calculated risk?

    Whatever it is: the victims are Gaza children.

    Parental responsibility requires to protect the children, not sending them to the front lines.

    The real TERROR is when Palestinian parents who are not affiliated with Hamas, can’t resist a gang of armed Hamas “fighters” who want to use their home as a rocket launching pad or an ambush location.
    What do you do as a father in this situation? How can you look in your children and wife eyes after that?

    Example:
    Nizar Rayan – Hamas senior commander who ran a command center at his home was killed in the strike together with thirteen members of his family, including all four of his wives.
    “He refused to leave his house; he preferred to be a martyr,” the Hamas official said.

    Well he got what he wanted!

    But what about the children and the wives?

    Does it remind you of a man committing suicide, but first killing his wife and three kids?

    Any war zone has collateral damage and it’s not pretty.

    Hamas abuse of of children and women as human shield makes it worse.

    Barry: with Gaza fully armed and inter-Palestinian skirmishes continue you will need to be more accurate about your event logs before you can pin somebody’s death on Israel.

    IDF does not target children, women or elderly and with your knowledge about the subject you should know better.

  18. Andrew said on February 27th, 2009 at 6:16am #

    Gideon: the unquestioning and uncritical defender of the Zionist cause. Bless!

  19. bozh said on February 27th, 2009 at 11:51am #

    gideon is now resorting to sciense, but omits to say which scientists of human behavior have after a study decided that the bad parenting is to blame for deaths of pal’n children.

    he knows that bad pal’n parents are sending children to the rooftops of their homes [ oops, front line] to misbehave in some way; and the misbehavior [ the kind yet to be divulged by scientists] warrants their death or maiming.
    oh my devil, how noble ‘jews’ are and how bad/ignoble/vile pal’ns are.

    maybe the study had been done by ‘zionists’?
    so, a home in WB is “front line” to him? thnx

  20. Gideon said on February 27th, 2009 at 12:52pm #

    Arab rejection of Palestine partition UN 181 – biased historic omission or honest mistake?

    Dina

    How could you not mention the UN resolution 181 – creation of Arab and Jewish states in Palestine and the fact that Arabs rejected it.

    It does eliminate the need for ANY Resistance, if there was an Arab state in Palestine!

    Also what about Resistance to Egyptian and Jordanian occupation from 1948 – 1967?

    Maybe you can revisit it in Part III?

  21. Suthiano said on February 27th, 2009 at 12:58pm #

    Instead of the sophistry of Gideon, check out the video at the beginning of this article: http://uruknet.info/?p=m52185&hd=&size=1&l=e

    and read the article as well if you have time.

    This 2 minute video will reveal the cowardice that is the IDF. They are composed of people like Gideon: cowards. THe most cowardly bastards you can come accross.

  22. Barry said on February 27th, 2009 at 1:32pm #

    Gideon said, “Parental responsibility requires to protect the children, not sending them to the front lines.”
    But Gideon, what’s a mom to do when the front line is her living room, the school yard, and the sheep pasture. I guess there’s no protecting the kids when the kill-crazy Israeli teens are on your block and in your kitchen – when the Jewish kids are raised to enjoy drive-by shootings from their jeeps.

    As far as the ‘event logs’ go – what you see is what you get. The description identifies both the circumstances, the victim and the killer. ‘Nuff said. I’ll show you some that you’ll like better, but first, since you mentioned the rockets – let’s talk about Israeli ‘rockets’. I’ll be back.

    In the meantime – Palestinians rejected the General Assembly recommendation (it was not binding) because there were in their rights to do so – as were the Zionists. Having done so, it was understood by all that 181 was then null and void. UN then abandoned 181 and US then concluded that 181 was unworkable. Jews then overran Palestine committing wide-scale genocide. That’s how the Jews won Palestine.

    That the Palestinians did not resist Jordanian and Egyptian occupations (both of whom recognized the Palestinian right to eventual independence should they choose to exercise it) can in no way be construed that the Jews had a superior right to occupy their country. In fact, that’s a pretty weird and twisted conclusion on your part.

  23. Tree said on February 27th, 2009 at 1:41pm #

    “Don’t talk to me about responsibility, sister. We’re men. When Ahmed is gone there will be thousands of children to replace him.”
    This is a comment made by a paramilitary (ie Hamas) militant in reference to the young boy they used as a lookout and who made grenades for them. A young boy who’s only goal in life was to be a “martyr.” It’s from the documentary Death in Gaza by James Miller and Saira Shah.

    Israeli soldiers actively seek out and kill Palestinian children.

    Neither side are heros in this respect, are they? But how pathetic that a bunch of commenters on a blog try to make them out to be. It really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

  24. Barry said on February 27th, 2009 at 2:03pm #

    Hey Gideon – Now about those Palestinian rockets you are so upset about. Can you tell me what the essential moral difference is between Palestinian home-made rockets, and Israeli or US manufactured missiles, drones, and shellings? I’ll tell you. The difference is that your country occupies Palestine – 42 years now – and Palestine occupies nobody.
    AND – speaking of cowardly, what could be more cowardly than killing families from long distance? Killing 5 month-olds at beach picnics. Below is a partial accounting of Palestinian CHILDREN killed by Israel in 2006 – by Israeli MISSILES and shells. How dare you speak of rockets.
    5 February 2006
    Nasr Ramadan Said Marshud, 16, of Gaza City, killed by IDF helicopter fire while driving a wounded man to the hospital after an airstrike at the al-Shams sports club.
    6 March 2006
    Ahmad Nasr Muhammad al-Swaisi, 14, of Gaza City, killed by an IDF missile during a targeted assassination.
    Mahmoud Ahmad Adel al-Batash, 16, of Gaza City, killed, with his brother, by an IDF missile during a targeted assassination.
    Raed Ahmad Adel al-Batash, 11, of Gaza City, killed, with his brother, by an IDF missile during a targeted assassination.
    7 April 2006
    Bilal Iyad Muhammad abul-Einein, 5, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile during the targeted assassination of his father.
    7 April 2006
    Mamdouh Muhammad Khalil Obaid, 15, of Sheikh Zayed, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling while playing soccer near his home.
    9 June 2006
    Haithem Ali Eisa Ghalya, 5 months, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed, with his mother, father and four sisters, by IDF shelling from an offshore warship while having a family picnic at Waha beach.
    Hanadi Ali Eisa Ghalya, 18 months, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed, with her mother, father, brother and three sisters, by IDF shelling from an offshore warship while having a family picnic at Waha beach.
    Sabrin Ali Eisa Ghalya, 4, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed, with her mother, father, brother and three sisters, by IDF shelling from an offshore warship while having a family picnic at Waha beach.
    Ilham Ali Eisa Ghalya, 15, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed, with her mother, father, brother and three sisters, by IDF shelling from an offshore warship while having a family picnic at Waha beach.
    Alia Ali Eisa Ghalya, 17, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed, with her mother, father, brother and three sisters, by IDF shelling from an offshore warship while having a family picnic at Waha beach.
    13 June 2006
    Hisham Ashraf Farouq al-Mughrabi, 14, of Gaza City, killed, with his brother and father, by an IDF missile while gathered at the site of a targeted assassination.
    Maher Ashraf Farouq al-Mughrabi, 8, of Gaza City, killed, with his brother and father, by an IDF missile while gathered at the site of a targeted assassination.
    Rafiq Muhammad Faraj al-Mubayed, 17, of Gaza City, killed by an IDF missile while at the site of a targeted assassination.
    20 June 2006
    Samia Mahmoud Ziad al-Sharif, 5, of Gaza City, killed by an IDF missile while going to her local grocery store during a targeted assassination attempt.
    Muhammad Jamal Shukri Ruqa, 6, of Gaza City, killed by an IDF missile while going to his local grocery store during a targeted assassination attempt.
    Bilal Jaser al-Hisi, 16, of Gaza City, killed by an IDF missile while at work during a targeted assassination attempt.
    21 June 2006
    Majzarah Shaban Abdul-Qader Ahmad, 12 hours, of Khan Younis, Gaza, killed, with her mother and uncle, by an IDF missile during a targeted assassination attempt.
    8 July 2006
    Rawan Farid Shaban Hajaj, 6, of Gaza City, killed, with her older brother, while in their home when the IDF bombed their neighborhood gas station.
    10 July 2006
    Mahfouz Farid Saber Nusir, 15, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile outside Hayel Abdul-Hamid secondary school.
    Ahmad Ghalib Nimer abu-Amsha, 16, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile outside Hayel Abdul-Hamid secondary school.
    Ahmad Fathi Odeh Shabat, 16, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile outside Hayel Abdul-Hamid secondary school.
    Khaled Nidal Abdul-Karim Wahbah, 15 months, of Salah al-Din, near Khan Younis, Gaza, died of wounds sustained June 21 in an IDF missile strike during a targeted assassination attempt.
    11 July 2006
    Walid Mahmoud Ahmad El-Zeinati, 12, of Gaza City, died of wounds sustained July 6 in an IDF missile strike.
    12 July 2006
    Somaya Nabil Abdul-Latif abu-Salmeya, 17, of Gaza City, disabled, killed, with her parents, two brothers and four sisters, in IDF airstrikes on their family home.
    Basma Nabil Abdul-Latif abu-Salmeya, 16, of Gaza City, killed, with her parents, two brothers and four sisters, in IDF airstrikes on their family home.
    Huda Nabil Abdul-Latif abu-Salmeya, 13, of Gaza City, killed, with her parents, two brothers and four sisters, in IDF airstrikes on their family home.
    Iman Nabil Abdul-Latif abu-Salmeya, 12, of Gaza City, killed, with her parents, two brothers and four sisters, in IDF airstrikes on their family home.
    Yehya Nabil Abdel-Latif abu-Salmeya, 10, of Gaza City, killed, with his parents, brother and five sisters, in IDF airstrikes on their family home.
    Aya Nabil Abdel-Latif abu-Salmeya, 9, of Gaza City, killed, with her parents, two brothers and four sisters, in IDF airstrikes on their family home.
    Nasrallah Nabil Abdul-Latif abu-Salmeya, 7, of Gaza City, killed, with his parents, brother and five sisters, in IDF airstrikes on their family home.
    Mahmoud Muhammad Khalil al-Asar, 15, of Nuseirat refugee camp, Gaza, killed by IDF helicopter fire near the abu-Holi checkpoint.
    Ibrahim Ali Mustafa Qatush, 15, of Deir al-Balah, Gaza, killed by IDF helicopter fire near the abu-Holi checkpoint.
    Ahmad Abdul-Menem Muhammad abu-Hajaj, 16, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed by IDF helicopter fire near the abu-Holi checkpoint.
    Ibrahim Ali Ibrahim al-Nabahin, 15, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed by IDF helicopter fire near the abu-Holi checkpoint.
    Salah Hassan Hammad abu-Maktomah, 17, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed by IDF helicopter fire near the abu-Holi checkpoint.
    13 July 2006
    Raji Omar Jaber Daifallah, 16, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, died of wounds sustained July 10 in an IDF missile strike outside Hayel Abdul-Hamid secondary school.
    19 July 2006
    Ali Kamal Muhammad al-Najar, 13, of Maghazi refugee camp, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling.
    Ahmad Rohi Hassan Abdu, 13, of Nuseirat refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile fired from a drone.
    20 July 2006
    Fadwa Faysal Suleiman al-Arrouqi, 13, of Maghazi refugee camp, Gaza, died of wounds sustained July 19 from IDF shelling which also killed her mother.
    21 July 2006
    Muamen Jaber Hamdi Harara, 16, of Gaza City, killed, with his older brother and cousin, by IDF shelling while on his roof during an incursion.
    24 July 2006
    Saleh Ibrahim Abdul-Rauf Nasr, 14, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling while at home in building 10 of the al-Nada towers.
    Nadi Habib Abdullah al-Attar, 10, of Atatra, near Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed, with his grandmother, by IDF shelling while riding on an animal-drawn cart.
    Khitam Muhammad Rebhi Tayeh, 11, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling while on her way to the grocery store.
    July 2006
    Bara Ahmad Hussein Habib, 2, of Gaza City, killed by an IDF missile fired from a drone to his head and abdomen during a targeted assassination.
    Shahid Samir Ata Oukal, 8 months, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed, with her sister and mother, by IDF shelling.
    Maria Samir Ata Oukal, 5, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed, with her sister and mother, by IDF shelling.
    Ahmad Ismael Saber abu-Amsha, 15, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling while at home.
    31 July 2006
    Nahid Muhammad Fawzi al-Shanbari, 16, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling near his home.
    1 August 2006
    Aref Ahmad Eid abu-Qaida, 14, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling while in his grandfather’s house.
    Somaya Samir Ata Oukal, 13, of Jabalya, Gaza, died of wounds sustained July 26 from IDF shelling which also killed her mother and two sisters.
    3 August 2006
    Anis Salem Jadua abu-Awad, 11, of Rafah, Gaza, killed in an IDF airstrike.
    4 August 2006
    Shahed Saleh Omar al-Sheikh Eid, 3 days, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling.
    5 August 2006
    Ammar Raja al-Natour, 17, of Rafah, Gaza, killed, with his sister, by an IDF missile fired from a drone while fleeing shelling.
    Kifah Raja al-Natour, 15, of Rafah, Gaza, killed, with her brother, by an IDF missile fired from a drone while fleeing shelling.
    Ibrahim Suleiman al-Rumailat, 13, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile fired from a drone to his back and shoulder.
    9 August 2006
    Raja Salam abu-Shaban, 3, of Gaza City, killed by an IDF missile.
    Ahmad Hussein Muhammad al-Mishal, 16, of Shati refugee camp, Gaza, killed by IDF helicopter fire while working in an orchard.
    14 August 2006
    Ahmad Yousef Abed Ashour, 13, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while in a crowd that gathered near the site of an abandoned Palestinian homemade rocket launcher.
    29 August 2006
    Muhammad Abdullah Suleiman al-Ziq, 14, of Gaza City, killed by an IDF missile fired from a drone.
    10 September 2006
    Jihad Suleiman Selmi abu-Snaima, 14, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling while at home near the Gaza airport.
    21 September 2006
    Ala Saqer Dahrouj abu-Dahrouj, 15, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while herding sheep.
    Zidan Rafiq Muhammad abu-Rashid, 16, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while herding sheep.
    Muhammad Selmi Muhammad Masalha, 17, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while herding sheep.
    27 September 2006
    Damaliz Ahmad Muhammad Hamad, 14, of Rafah refugee camp, Gaza, killed in an IDF airstrike on a neighbor’s house.
    29 September 2006
    Anwar Abdul-Ghani Muhammad Hamdan, 16, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his brother, by an IDF missile while riding their bicycles past an abandoned Palestinian rocket launching site.
    Hamam Abdul-Ghani Muhammad Hamdan, 13, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his brother, by an IDF missile while riding their bicycles past an abandoned Palestinian rocket launching site.
    3 October 2006
    Naji Khaled Ismael al-Bardawil, 15, of Khan Younis, Gaza, killed in an IDF missile strike on a neighboring building.
    9 October 2006
    Mahmoud Jamal Ahmad abu-Nasr, 14, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while salvaging an abandoned homemade rocket launcher.
    12 October 2006
    Iman Usama Fadel al-Harazin, 2, of Gaza City, killed in an IDF airstrike while walking with her father.
    Suhaib Adel Zerei Mahmoud Qudaih, 13, of Abasan al-Kabira, near Khan Younis, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while in his home.
    November 2006
    Muhammad Samir Husseini Mahmoud, 17, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while administering first aid to a victim at the scene of a targeted assassination.
    Bara Riyad Muhammad Fayyad, 4, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, died of wounds sustained Nov. 1 from IDF shelling of his home.
    Raed Ali al-Majid Yasin, 15, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed in an IDF airstrike while at the scene of a targeted assassination.
    November 2006
    Ibrahim Jamal Hasan al-Bassiuni, 17, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, died of wounds sustained Nov. 3 from IDF helicopter fire during an incursion.
    6 November 2006
    Ramzi Mowafaq al-Shrafi, 16, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while on his way to school.
    8 November 2006
    Fatima Masoud Abdullah al-Athamna, 16, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed, with 16 family members, by IDF shelling while asleep at home.
    Mahdi Said Abdullah al-Athamna, 13, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed, with 16 family members, by IDF shelling while asleep at home.
    Muhammad Said Abdullah al-Athamna, 14, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed, with 16 family members, by IDF shelling while asleep at home.
    Saad Majdi Said al-Athamna, 8, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed, with 16 family members, by IDF shelling while asleep at home.
    Mahmoud Amjad al-Athamna, 12, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed, with 16 family members, by IDF shelling while asleep at home.
    Maram Ramez Masoud al-Athamna, 2, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed, with 16 family members, by IDF shelling while asleep at home.
    Maisa Ramez Masoud al-Athamna, 6 months, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed, with 16 family members, by IDF shelling while asleep at home.
    Musa Ahmad Musleh Zuhod, 14, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while standing near a homemade Palestinian rocket launcher.
    Mahmoud Hussein Mustafa abu-Hamada, 17, of Jabalya, Gaza, died of wounds sustained Nov. 6 from an IDF missile strike at the Jabalya Youth Club.

    Hey Gideon – Did you get this far? Did you count them? It’s just a partial accounting of but one year. I can give you the records on those killed by tank fire if you are interested in ‘medium-range murder.’ Or does this leave your appetite for dead Palestinian kids sated for the moment?

  25. Barry said on February 27th, 2009 at 2:25pm #

    But maybe you are right on two things – All these deaths of Palestinian kids by missiles and shells fired from gunships, gunboats, helicopters and drones – probably those are Palestinian gunships, gunboats, helicopters and drones, ya think?
    And surely you are right about the bad parenting. Good parents would have advised their children to stay in hiding rather than go on picnics, or to school, or for car rides. Just what are these parents thinking?

  26. Barry said on February 27th, 2009 at 3:23pm #

    tree – I don’t know about heroes – I do know that a first-rate world military power has been practicing a turkey shoot on tens of thousands of virtually unarmed people in their own country for 42 years now – and me and my fellow taxpayers are footing the bill. That’s what leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

  27. Gideon said on February 27th, 2009 at 3:51pm #

    Hamas brings the front to Gaza living room: strategic military and political decision of Human shielding!

    “what’s a mom to do when the front line is her living room?”
    That’s the real TERROR in Gaza. When parents can’t resist militant gangs using their homes as rocket launching pads, ammunition storage and make shift bunkers.

    What can a mom do? Did other communities in the world are trying to come up with an appropriate response?

    Some do.
    In Los Angeles “gangland” were kids die every week because of gangs violence and street shooting, local community leaders, religious leaders and Mothers went to the streets in a Non-violent protest to demand an end endangering their lives.

    Can it be done in Gaza?
    Who knows …
    But it would require the Dissident Voice which is now missing in Gaza. It is quite understandable. Expressing Dissent may cost you your life.

    Mothers against Human Shield! Get the war out of our neighborhoods!
    When will we hear and see these demonstrations?
    Who has the balls?

    I want to believe that “Parsley Ladies” have good intentions and have plenty of ideas. May be even this one passes their list, but at the end in Gaza they are ONLY allowed to do what Hamas approves off.

    Tree
    IDF does not target children, women or elderly.

    Suhiano – we already disscussed this video
    I am one of the FEW to watch the video you mentioned.

    We all understand the situation:
    Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and unilaterally announced Demilitarized Zone by the border.
    Many demilitarized zones are also neutral territory, since neither side is allowed to control it even for civilian administration.

    IDF does not allow Gazans to enter this Demilitarized Zone to pick the crops or launch rockets!

    So how many times do “Parsley Ladies” need to hear NO?

    On the other hand, it is Non-violent protest and provides materials for these videos.

    So as long as they are willing to take the risk …., let them have fun?

  28. Barry said on February 27th, 2009 at 4:10pm #

    Don’t forget Gideon – It is ONLY Israel that has been brought to court for using human shields – and found guilty. No one else does so.

    If you like, Gideon, I can continue to post a full accounting of IDF shootings of Palestinian children – up close and personal for ALL the months from 11/00 to 12/08. IDF teens shoot Palestinian toddlers directly in the face, the heart the abdomen. That’s what they call ‘Cruel Zionism.’ You know, if you want someone’s land – you have to be cruel about it. So Israeli parents raise their kids to be cruel about Arabs.

    And you don’t have to admit it – but you KNOW from the evidence presented here, that the UN, the WORLD deems Gaza to be illegally occupied by Israel just as it has been for 42 years.

    And as far as a DMZ goes in Gaza- there is none. There is, however, a No-Go zone. If a Palestinian approaches within several hundred yards of the Gaza Cage, even if it is his farm, he is shot. Needless to say. that’s a part of Israel’s occupation strategy, unilaterally imposed.

    Gideon, you didn’t get back to me on whether you wanted to see what the Jews did to win Palestine, not the Palestine of 181, but real behavior, real practices – facts on the ground. Would you like me to spell it out in detail?

  29. bozh said on February 27th, 2009 at 4:26pm #

    if pal’n moms are human, then it can be concluded- keeping in mind that ?all mothers want their children to be safe- that a mom in gaza or WB wld demand her child[ren] go dwn in basement and stay there until firing stops or aggressor withdraws.

    it is well known that in many lands, ?all moms remain silent
    while men talk about wars/economy/religion/politics; they care mostly about their chldren.

    so when shooting starts, moms cld care less about these issues and being in panic and utterly terrified wld at once gather their children and take them to the safest place.

    but zionists asssert, that is not the case with pal’n women. i know how terrified i had been in ’43 when the bombs whistled dwn on my home town as i clung to the wall.

    so what’s with these pal’n women? are they some kind of different specie? or are they just people who like most others wld protect their children when missiles fly or shootings go on.
    and wld say, The hell with politics or warfare right now. Safety first!

    maybe ‘zionists’ might enlighten us about this? we all know they are light unto us.
    well, if we have only 5 senses and they have 8+; then they know? thnx

  30. Gideon said on February 27th, 2009 at 4:27pm #

    Economics of Martyrdom – worth of life: what Gaza family gets in return?
    Culture of Death and who is paying for it?

    Anybody knows or cares?

  31. bozh said on February 27th, 2009 at 4:54pm #

    culture of stealing land over a century and still not enough robbery.
    and who’s paying for it? mostly USans while victims are mostly pal’ns.
    and most ‘jews’ and USans cry for more of the same. thnx

  32. Gideon said on February 27th, 2009 at 5:01pm #

    Palestinian Moms do not fear Israel, they know IDF does not target them.
    They fear Hamas that puts them at risk.

    bozh
    “a mom in gaza or WB wld demand her child[ren] go dwn in basement and stay there until firing stops or aggressor withdraws.”

    I agree, it sounds reasonable and the right thing to do.

    Maybe you can explain why a child is on the roof or running with people with guns on the street when there is shooting in the neighborhood?

  33. Tree said on February 27th, 2009 at 5:01pm #

    Barry, I don’t argue with your comment towards me but I will not turn a blind eye to the truth in order to support the Palestinians. I wish for them peace and freedom from Israeli oppression but anyone who uses a child to further a violent agenda is filth, just as is anyone who intentionally murders a child.

    Gideon, you’re a liar.

  34. bozh said on February 27th, 2009 at 5:37pm #

    gideon,
    how do you know the shooting did not start as kids were on roofs or streets? and were dead or maimed; thus, cld not be even found?
    do you think a child wld run into a street or up on flat roof after shooting started?
    possibly, if he or she had antitank weapon or was about to climb into a helicopter gunship to join the fun.
    but one fires at a tank while prone and hiding in a foxhole? isn’t that how most gazans fighters fought israelis during recent massacre?
    and once in a unseen and unseeable foxhole IOF wld be wasting a lot of missiles killing just one fighter.
    and wldn’t fighters spread out as widely as possible, making a ground war very costly and which IOF soldiers avoided?
    if they were in the buildings using women for protection, they’d had to shoot thru walls or else open windows, dangling women with one hand while firing possibly in the foot rather than at israelis.
    and of course, IOF missiles were made of paper, so that any skirt cld deflect it away?

    now if i was a filmmaker and had money i’d write a script and shoot a film decribing ‘zionist’ version of gazan fighting.
    i think i’d make oodless of money from such a hillarious movie.

    and, gideon, i cld use you for an adviser? thnx

  35. Barry said on February 27th, 2009 at 5:43pm #

    I agree, Tree and I didn’t mean to sound wise-cracking. But I think if we are to be diverted by films (whether made for propaganda purposes or merely functioning as such) that miss the mark on what the real issue is, then we have missed an opportunity to support peace and freedom. About Hamas, I would say that Israel had several decades to come to a just peace with a very secular PLO – and didn’t, because they wanted the rest of Palestine. Now, everyone is up in arms because some Palestinians have retreated into religion and turned to a group that promises to deliver on what the PLO failed to deliver – all of the WB&G. That Hamas is not perfect (to say the least), and the Palestinians are not perfect (no people are) does not alter the existential issue of the Occupation at all. It is not as if we can cay (as Gideon insinuates) that Palestine does not have to be considered Occupied any longer because Hamas is made up of bad men (and soulless mothers). It is not Hamas or Palestinian mothers who are the problem – it is the Israeli Occupation. So I support a just peace and freedom for Palestinians without reservation.

  36. Tree said on February 27th, 2009 at 5:53pm #

    Have you seen Death in Gaza?

  37. Tree said on February 27th, 2009 at 5:53pm #

    I hit submit too soon. You can watch it for free on Google.

  38. Gideon said on February 28th, 2009 at 12:37pm #

    Gaza has been FREE from Israeli soldiers since 2005. Gazan storing ammunition in his home takes grave risk for himself and his family.

    Is it resistance?
    Can Palestinians say NO to Hamas?
    Is he a member of Hamas and it is a requirement to endanger your family as a proof of his readiness for Martyrdom?
    Is he on payroll and it is a “risk” that comes with a job?

    Whatever the answer is – it is still Hamas strategy that endangers civilian population and uses them as Human Shields.

    The amount of Humanitarian aid provide to Gaza should allow Palestinians in Gaza to decline such an offer from Hamas.

    Unless Hamas controls distribution of this Humanitarian assistance and the families have to comply just to survive?

    If this is the case than the International community that provides the Humanitarian assistance without taking the necessary steps to assure the delivery to the needy without any strings attached, is also responsible to this abuse and indirectly supporting Hamas abuse of Human Shields.

    bozh
    “how do you know the shooting did not start as kids were on roofs or streets?”

    Common sense.
    Israeli entry in Gaza neighborhood are advertised and announced in advance. As you have mentioned, Mothers should hide their children in the basement.

    Local skirmishes between armed Palestinian gangs or clans erupt randomly, so that may explain why the kid is still on the roof or on the street and who actually killed him.

    Of course it is best to blame the Israelis for every death. Nobody becomes Martyr for being killed by a random bullet from a neighbor or fellow Palestinian.

    You do not have to make a movie, there is enough footage of tens of Palestinian children ages as low as 7 running around and throwing stones with adults caring and shooting guns .

    Does it look to you as responsible parenting?

  39. bozh said on February 28th, 2009 at 1:24pm #

    gideon,
    IOF entry [ why not raid or a violation of basic humna rights?] into gaza being advertized and announced? be as it may, i thought we were talking also about shootings in WB.
    and if pal’n are shooting, at whom are they shooting? not at invaders?

    regarding IOF announcement, we need impartial observers to testify to that.
    so, if it’s true that IOF announces their [ friendly?] visits, why are observers not allowed to observe any IOF invasion; oops, friendly visit.
    during recent gaza massacre, even staunchly pro CNN and Fox people were n ot alllowed into gaza let alone UN observers.
    so, where is the smoking bomb? thus far only gideon has reported this ‘announcement’ by IOF.
    come to think of it, i know of no raiders or invaders who announce their coming into a hostile area.
    does US police announce to a felon/fugitive, holed in a house or his house, its coming after him?
    and we are talking about amers going after amers and not ‘jews’ after hated canaanities and other shemites.
    and hated for at least 4K yrs. common, gideon, smarten up and smell the coffee. thnx

  40. kalidas said on February 28th, 2009 at 2:12pm #

    Gideon. Who’s your daddy?

    http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee261/FrankPilla/palestine_terrorist.jpg

  41. Barry said on February 28th, 2009 at 3:13pm #

    As you know Gideon – UN (that would be the world including the US) deems Gaza to be Israeli-Occupied Palestine right up to this very moment.

    No Gideon, Gaza has not been free of Israeli soldiers since 2005. You only have to read Haaretz or even the J-Post to know that. Besides, your wording it as ‘soldiers’ obscures the fact that Israel’s usual practice is to shell Gaza or fire missiles into it. Here’s an example:

    19 February 2008 Tamer Muhammad Abdul-Riziq abu-Shar, 9, of Wadi al-Salqa, near Khan Younis, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his head while he and his family attempted to flee their home during an incursion.

    How’s that for an up close and personal murder by Israeli Occupation Forces – since 2005, no less?

    Only Israel has been hauled into court for using human shields – and found guilty – and then they promptly violated the court edict. It was also Israel that routinely used human shields in Jenin and Lebanon. Palestinians do not use human shields – it’s a jewish practice. For Jewish kids, the reward for graduating high school is to leave the country and kill Palestinian babies. When will Jewish parents stop raising their children to be murderers?

  42. Gideon said on February 28th, 2009 at 6:32pm #

    Hamas brought war to Gaza kitchens and is fully responsible for safety of Gaza people and every life lost.

    For thousands of year civilizations evolved to wage war in open fields to prevent civilian casualties and to protect children, women and elderly.

    Yes, Hamas strategy of bringing the war into the neighborhood provides them tactical advantage against IDF. But at what price?

    Gaza civilian population: children, women and elderly are paying this terrible PRICE.

    Hamas also is reaping benefits from PR dead baby strategy.
    What a cynical abuse of human life!

    Where are the Dissdent Voices to protect Gaza people?

    Could we see the mother of Tamer Muhammad Abdul-Riziq abu-Shar demanding accountability from Hamas government? Would she or her family dare?

    Could we see “Parsley Ladies” protesting in Gaza: “Take the war out of our neighborhoods”?

    Number of Gaza combatant and civilian casualties is still being contested.

    Barry
    Death of Tamer Muhammad Abdul-Riziq abu-Shar is a tragedy. One life lost is a world lost.

    Who made the determination how he was killed and that it was IDF or Hamas bullet?

    Please provide us with the all the information you have about the case.