Are Palestinians Allowed to Resist?

Part II: Palestinian Resistance in Context, Between Non-violent and Armed Struggle

Read “Are Palestinians Allowed to Resist? Part I: Palestinian Resistance in Context, between Non-Violent and Armed Struggle”

There is an abundance of discourse over the means and methods that are pursued and / or justified by the Palestinians in their quest for independence and liberation. In the first part of this essay, I presented the legal, historical, and current context that form the root of their current predicament. In this segment, I want to address the pros and cons of pursuing an exclusively non-armed struggle both by looking at the uniqueness of Palestinian circumstances and also by comparing it with the Indian National Liberation Movement, which is usually presented in Western narratives as almost exclusively non-violent, and successful, for having (ostensibly) been so.

A Brief History of Palestinian Non-Violent Resistance

Palestinians are continuously asked to not resist. The truth is that whether they resist violently or non-violently, Israeli violence continues unabated. Perhaps the scale, ugliness and the immediacy of the trauma are exaggerated in a massacre like we recently saw in Gaza, but the reality of purposeful eradication persists.

Examples of Palestinian non-violent resistance have existed since the very start of Jewish immigration into Palestine but were never enough to attain freedom. Ultimately, it is an imperative but frequently unstated precondition that Palestinians accept a permanent subjugated and defeated status, preferably outside of their historic lands. It is otherwise known as the Yigal Allon Plan (1967), a policy actively pursued by even the “Dove” Shimon Peres and entailing the expulsion of Palestinians. The Allon plan formed the basis of Israel’s settlements/colonization. Frequently unacknowledged in mainstream Western coverage is that only after acceptance of defeat and eradication can Israel’s violence (aka “retaliation”) against Palestinians stop.

Unwilling to accept that, and choosing a policy of “sumoud”/steadfastness on the land, Palestinians pursue(d) non-violent resistance as a complimentary and grassroots approach against the occupation. Here are just a few examples of Palestinian non-violent resistance to Israeli aggression: in 1902, villages of al-Shajara, Misha, and Melhamiyya peacefully protested against the takeover of 7000 hectares of agricultural land by the first Zionist settlers; in 1936, Palestinians held a six-month industrial strike protesting the British Mandate’s refusal to grant them self-determination; in 1986, Hannah Siniora and Mubarak ‘Awad (who advocates the power of non-violence and is a self-described disciple of Gandhi; recently deported by Israel) drew a list of civic disobedience activities heavily reliant on boycotting Israeli products and economic self-sufficiency, helping launch the 1987-93 First Intifada; in 1993, the signing of the Oslo Accords and the pursuit of the “settlement” path; and currently, the holding of protests in the villages of Jayyous, Budrus, Bil’in, Ni’lin and Umm Salamonah against the apartheid wall. Today, the tradition of non-violence is still practiced and promoted by some secular and independent Palestinian political leaders, like the Palestinian National Initiative led by Mustafa Barghouti. And even Hamas, often presented as the ultimate terrorist organization, upheld a six month ceasefire with Israel but was still subjected to a non-lifting of the suffocating siege of Gaza. (The ceasefire ended on November 4, 2008 when Israel conducted a targeted assassination that killed six Hamas members.)

Needless to say, these facts are rarely, if ever covered in mainstream accounts. Instead the focus is consistently on “terror” and “Israel’s right to defend itself,” ignoring the cumulative suffering of the occupation. As for Israel’s response, it consistently uses overwhelming force, including tear gas, rubber bullets, live ammunition, etc. against protesters and justifies this as “self-defense,” even when protecting illegal settlement colonies.

Which raises the question of the efficacy of non-violent resistance as the sole or primary means of achieving national liberation. While each national liberation struggle is unique, there are certain conditions and methods that may translate across people. One thing that many have in common is that non-violent resistance was not pursued exclusively. This was true of the African National Congress’ anti-apartheid Boycott and Divestment Movement in South Africa, which accompanied armed struggle. It was also true of the struggle for national liberation from British rule in India, a fact usually unmentioned in Western press, which tends to focus on Mahatma Gandhi’s satyagraha/non-violent path to resistance. In doing so, there is a grave disservice done to explaining how Indian independence came to be. There is also a convenient decontextualization of the struggle. And I use “convenient” intentionally because Gandhi’s model is often held up (by Israel and the West) as the best and “most civilized” one that ought to be emulated by the oppressed Palestinians.

Gandhi in Context: Was the Indian National Liberation Struggle Entirely Non-Violent?

The name Gandhi and non-violent resistance (satyagraha) are almost synonymous in most people’s minds. Satyagraha’s aim is not just to defeat the opponent, but aims to convert the adversary as well. And yet there are important nuances and definite progression in Gandhi’s approach to war and colonialism. On the subject of whether it is better to be a coward or to resist violently, he said: “I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence… I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonour…”1 He also said: “Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenseless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. The latter befits neither man nor woman. Under violence, there are many stages and varieties of bravery. Every man must judge this for himself. No other person can or has the right.2 Applied to the Palestinian context, this would indicate that Palestinians have the duty to fight back against their own annihilation. However, he would have probably qualified that by saying that non-violence could cause the same changes with lower loss in life.

Historically, too Gandhi’s attitudes to war evolved. While still in South Africa, and in reaction to the Bambatha (Zulu) Rebellion of 1906 against a new British poll-tax, to which Britain responded by declaring a war, Gandhi encouraged the British to recruit Indians. He wanted to advance Indian claims as full citizens of the Empire. He also encouraged Indians to join the war through his columns in Indian Opinion.

Gandhi’s statecraft and thought did not happen in a vacuum. Likewise, India’s independence was not the work of only one man or one concept or one strategy. In fact, India’s nationalist feelings pre-existed Gandhi and the Congress Party, and evidence of it can be found as early as 1857. The first group to call for complete independence was the uncompromisingly secular Ghadar Party, organized in 1913 by Indian immigrants in California. The party actively pursued violent resistance and revolution (rejecting caste as well) and predictably, their actions were labeled as “terrorism” by Britain. Operating mainly in the first two decades of the 20th Century, the Ghadarites were successful in recruiting Indian soldiers in the British Army (in Hong Kong, Singapore, Rangoon, and Basra) and urging them to revolt.

As for Gandhi, once in India, he progressed to advocating non-violent resistance as a “weapon.” His political views on Indian independence evolved as well. Consider that at the age of 45, Gandhi still held some esteem for the British empire, calling it a “spiritual foundation,” in contrast to the views of most Indian revolutionaries. It wasn’t until after the Amritsar Massacre of civilians by British troops in the Punjab, that Gandhi advocated complete self-government maturing into independence (swaraj). In the intervening years there was a constant push and pull between Gandhi’s satyagraha policy and other political personalities and groups pursuing independence — not always non-violently.

A massive wave of revolutionary unrest swept India in 1919. British violent retaliation was unable to quell it. For example, there were more than 200 strikes in the first six months of 1920 alone. And yet in 1921, when Muslim leader Hasrat Mohani wrote a resolution asking for complete independence, Gandhi led the opposition against it and secured its rejection. Likewise, he supported Britain in WWI by trying to recruit Indians for the war effort. He himself volunteered twice for it, in present-day Iraq and in France, reasoning that he “owed” this to the empire in return for military protection. This led to deep divisions within the Congress party and also caused a dramatic drop in the popularity of Congress. Young revolutionaries like Rash Behari Bose, Shaheed Bhagat Singh, and revolutionary groups like the Workers and Peasant Party (Kirti Kisan Party) and militant unions like the Bombay textile workers were frequently at odds with Congress. Armed revolutionary groups that emerged in this period included the Hindustan Republican Army and the Hindustan Socialist Republican Army in northern India, as well as the “Revolt Groups” in Bengal (e.g. Chittagong group led by Surya Sen). Working class and union resistance continued throughout the 1930s. Eventually, it was in response to this revolutionary tide, that the Congress Party became less conservative and more supportive of the more militant attitude. As for Gandhi, he returned to advocating non-violent struggle and launched the salt satyagraha (1930-31) and the boycott campaigns. He has been criticized by some for not taking advantage of this revolutionary tide, thereby delaying independence.

Even at the time of World War II, Gandhi prevaricated on non-violence: first offering “non-violent moral support” to the British effort, and only later rescinding that decision when members of the Congress Party objected to the inclusion of India in the war effort without her consultation. In 1939-40, strikes and uprisings in the countryside swelled dramatically. Afterward, the Congress party was compelled by grassroots pressure to launch the Quit India movement in August of 1942. It is important to note that this period in the struggle was one of extreme violence, mass arrests, and so forth. And yet, Quit India’s success in contributing to independence is controversial. Those arguing that it failed say that it fizzled out after five months (largely due to the army’s loyalty) and didn’t topple the Raj or bring it to the negotiating table for independence. In contrast, those who see it as a success, focus on how it sapped colonial energy and resources and on its success at mobilizing masses of people. Importantly, it inspired the final phase of the fight for independence, which witnessed increasingly militant peasant uprisings, sometimes joined by some of the landlords.

By the end of the war, Britain was indicating that power would be transferred to Indians. Aware that they couldn’t hold on any longer, they instead focused on partitioning India – bringing to mind Israel’s recent attempts to divide Gaza from the West Bank. In the meantime, Congress’ adherence to a policy of non-violence was entirely dependent on the British soldiers – as opposed to the armed Muslim League – and were unable to prevent partition. Thus, Congress’ inherent conservatism with regards to armed struggle hindered its goal of keeping India intact. They failed to build on numerous past instances of Hindu-Muslim cooperation against British colonialism. (Not all members of the Muslim league supported Muslim self-determination: Communist leader Ghaffar Ali opposed it vociferously.)

As is evident from the history recounted above, the agreeable and reasonable- sounding frame of the superiority of peaceful resistance sets up a false dichotomy. Presenting satyagraha as the exemplary approach to liberation is deceptive mainly because India’s independence was not achieved through non-violence alone. Moreover, its historical context and enemy are do not translate well across time and location. Finally, while inspirational and useful on many levels, it is not sufficient as sole guide or solution to achieving Palestinian liberation.

Options for Palestinian Resistance

Fundamentally, all theories of national liberation emanate from the ethical and legal principle that a people has the right to be free from alien occupation and exploitation. Resistance is their inalienable right. Insistence on non-violent resistance can sometimes be counterproductive – as happened with Gandhi’s insistence on it when confronting partition. Relying solely on non-violence subordinates the fundamental moral and ethical goal of independence to all sorts of conditionalities in order to achieve it in the “right” way.

All events so far indicate that non-violent resistance has been of modest benefit to Palestinians, with the important exceptions of tarnishing Israel’s image and moral claims. One could argue that Israel pursued the (sham) Oslo peace process precisely because the First Intifada rendered the population ungovernable. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, the Fateh leadership of the PLO squandered those achievements and marginalized popular input. Since then, pursuit of “settlement” and “negotiation” in the absence of a concomitant armed struggle has produced regressive and contradictory effects. Why is that?

One reason is the nature of the adversary. Zionist and Israeli ideology and statecraft are fundamentally violent, involving ethnic cleansing and relying first and foremost on war as an instrument in achieving Greater (Eretz) Israel. Unlike Great Britain, which had developed a liberal democratic tradition when Indians were struggling for their independence, Israel is essentially a highly militarized, ethnically-based and legally privileged society. It made no difference whatsoever how the Palestinians resisted, whether violently or not. As happened in other Western colonial historical experiences, like the US, Australia, or apartheid South Africa, the settlers use overwhelming force to convince the native populations of their ultimate defeat.

A second important difference is that after World War II, England could no longer hold onto its colonies. This is in sharp contrast to the US-superpower-backed-Israel, which maintains a pronounced military superiority over all its neighbors.

A third difference is that ever since the Jewish Land Agency started buying Palestinian lands from absentee landowners, and continuing after its war-time conquest of land, Israel stipulated that Palestinians cannot lease or be employed on purchased land. As a result, Palestinians are less important to the Israeli economy than India was to Britain. Their marginalization and de-development are intentional and serve to facilitate Israeli expropriation of valuable water, land, and other resources. Moreover, Israel receives significant financial and military “aid” from the United States which also reduces its need to integrate economically with its neighbors. The lack of economic dependency makes non-violent resistance much less effective as a weapon in fighting the occupation. Any economic levers the Palestinians may have had were further diminished (intentionally) via their PA leadership’s dependency on and distribution of foreign “aid.” This had the double effects of corrupting and ensuring the cooptation and cooperation of the leadership, as well as minimizing the size and role of an educated middle class that could lead the struggle – as was the case in India.

A fourth difference is the lack of a charismatic leader like Gandhi. Which brings us right back to the first reason, the nature of the opponent. Israel has a long history of assassinating and / or deporting any potential leader who is incorruptible or charismatic or effective.3

In the final analysis, non-violence is still a worthy means of resistance. Significantly, it enhances growing international perceptions of the brutality of the occupation and builds on the legal consensus and framework of the legitimacy of Palestinian rights, as recurrently affirmed through UN General Assembly annual resolutions and the most recent ruling against the apartheid wall at the International Court of Justice. Non-violent resistance, by being more accessible to ordinary people, additionally creates more sustainable and widespread networks of resistance. At a minimum, it establishes a network of interdependence for the newly liberated society to build on.

But it is not enough. And arguably, it has never been enough, especially in the absence of a more just as opposed to legalistic international relations.

  1. Eds. R. K. Rabhu & U. R. Rao, “Between Cowardice and Violence,” The Mind of Mahatma Gandhi, Ahemadabad, India, 1967, p. 3 []
  2. Ibid, pp. 369-70 []
  3. For a partial list of Palestinian leaders assassinated by Mossad []

Dina Jadallah-Taschler is an Arab-American of Palestinian and Egyptian descent, a political science graduate and is also an artist. She can be reached at: Dina.Jadallah.Taschler@gmail.com. Read other articles by Dina, or visit Dina's website.

87 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. Gideon said on February 27th, 2009 at 10:51am #

    That’s NO Gandhi! Ottoman troops were needed to end Arab Armed Resistance to eviction 1902.

    Dina
    This is just after reading the FIRST example and 2nd paragraph …

    I want to believe that you take your writings seriously. Just because every pro Palestinian source on the web wrote it does not make it true. Please review the sources and references below. You are welcome to post a correction.

    ——————————
    JCA purchased land in the Tiberias district.
    Violence errupted in 1901–02 when the JCA attempted ed to remove the fellahin cultivating land. JCA was met with armed resistance from the villages of al-Shajara, Misha and Melhamiyya.
    It took the mobilization of Ottoman troops and widespread arrests to end the protest

    (Barbour 1947; Mandel 1976; Morris 2001).
    References:
    Barbour, N.
    1947 Palestine: Star or Crescent? (New York: Odyssey Press).

    Mandel, N.
    1976 The Arabs and Zionism before World War I
    (Berkeley: University of CaliforniaPress).

    Morris, B.
    2001 Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Confl ict, 1881–2001 (New York: Vintage).

  2. Gideon said on February 27th, 2009 at 4:13pm #

    Non-violent resistance in the midst of Civil war? Real Politics is what needed today!

    Palestinians lack of leadership is one of the main obstacles to independence .

    “lack of a charismatic leader”
    Arafat has been and probably still is one of the most recognizable world leaders and he had the grip on Palestinian power and resources for the last 30 years.

    So there was no lack of Palestinian charismatic leader.

    That does not assure that he makes good decisions.
    Palestinians are here today because of decisions of Arafat and other “leaders” before him.

  3. bozh said on February 27th, 2009 at 4:41pm #

    a leader with US tanks, artillery, F-16s, warships, army, helicopters is not a pal’n leader w.o. such weapons.

    a country with governance is not a country without governance.
    even the worst governance may be better than any anarchy.
    i wish US wld try anarchy and find out waht it is like being w.o. jurisprudence, police, social services, etc.

    yet remnants of palestine- now in tatters- are also occupied and daily shrinking. thnx

  4. hmpierson said on February 27th, 2009 at 6:51pm #

    What I fail to find in this discussion is a discussion of violence aimed at civilians versus violence aimed at military objectives.

    If the Palestinians had military objectives, one could argue about whether violence is justified or not. But since their targets are almost 100% civilians, they are merely terrorists. Hamas “fighters” hide behind their own civilians, and even Amnesty International has cited them for using human shields.

    Here is an example of the work of valiant Palestinian freedom fighters:

    “On the Sunday afternoon of 2 May 2004, Tali Hatuel drove her daughters after school to meet her husband in the nearby town of Ashkelon. As they were driving on the Kissufim road leading out of the Gaza Strip the car was ambushed by two Palestinian gunmen.

    The car, riddled with bullet-holes, span off the road. The gunmen approached and shot Tali Hatuel and each of her four daughters at point blank range.

    Israeli troops who rushed to the scene killed the two terrorists, who were identified as residents of the southern Gaza town of Rafah. In a call to the Associated Press, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Resistance Committees, claimed responsibility for the attack. (The Popular Resistance Committees are linked to the Fatah faction led by Yasser Arafat).

    It was reported in various newspapers that official Voice of Palestine radio hailed the gunmen as “heroic martyrs”.”

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2004/Tali+Hatuel.htm

  5. RH2 said on February 28th, 2009 at 8:35am #

    hmpierson,

    Yes, attacking civilians is terrorism ( lat, terror= an occurrence or event causing fright. Terrere = frighten or startle). In case of Palestine terrorism is a natural reaction to occupation. The latter cannot be seen as a natural reaction, but a deliberate action, i.e. a decision. You would not occupy because you have to, but because you want to.

    Gideon,

    Yes, there is a Palestinian and a broad Arab deplorable state of affairs indeed. Yet, this should not justify occupying the Palestinians and continually importing Ashkenasi terrorists from abroad into Palestine (“Law Of Return?”). Return from where?

  6. Gideon said on February 28th, 2009 at 12:51pm #

    Are Palestinians ready to start Nation Building? Palestinian state eliminates the need for “Resistance”?

    Is Hamas ready to participate in Nation Building?

    Is there a Civil was coming between Hamas and PLO before Palestinians would be ready for Nation Building?

    If this is the case, shouldIsrael stick to its guns until Palestinians are READY and Palestinian power is consolidated?

    Would anything else be SUICIDAL?

  7. RH2 said on February 28th, 2009 at 2:20pm #

    Gideon,

    A civil war in Palestine would not only be in the interest of US Imperialism, but also in the interest of Zionist occupation. Creating conditions for civil wars is an old colonial method of dominance.

    As usual you evade the topic. Could you once be honest and answer the question: If a politician in your community would say, “let us get a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders done”, would you get out and applaud him/her? Would you elect him/her?

  8. Gideon said on February 28th, 2009 at 3:36pm #

    When Palestinians unite and will be ready to negotiate and close the deal? Final borders through negotiations.

    The question is what is driving these negotiations.
    If it is driven by Palestinian grievances and claims of “stolen land” it may NEVER be resolved.
    If it is driven by creating prosperity for Palestinian people – Peace has a chance.

    RH2
    You are welcome to run in Israeli elections, they have a rainbow of parties and opinions.

    Gaza territory is within 1967 border.
    Where did it go so far since 2005 Israeli withdraw?

    How about Gaza first?
    Let’s see what Palestinian nation building can achieve in Gaza.
    I am sure the international community will support them morally and financially.

  9. RH2 said on February 28th, 2009 at 4:40pm #

    Gideon,

    Thank you for the (un) answer. Yes, the “International Community” will definitely support Gaza, with my tax money. You destroy Gaza and US/EU tax-payers have to rebuild it, until you start the next “self-defense”.

  10. Barry said on March 1st, 2009 at 8:17am #

    Pierson – The Israeli attack on Palestine is aimed ENTIRELY at civilians and their institutional structures. The Palestinian resistance TRIES to attack the Israeli military, but as they are virtually weaponless, have no means to do so. The idea of Israelis attacking civilians is an old one – the aim is to kill and injure as many as it takes to make the rest flee beyond the homeland. That’s how the Jews won Palestine in the first place. Below are just two deaths of Palestinian children by Israeli Occupation Forces. Pierson, you should know that between late 2000 and the end of 2008, Israeli Occupation Forces have killed 1056 Palestinian children (and hundreds more this year) – almost the ENTIRE total of adults killed by Palestinians over the period. So who is attacking whose civilians – and babies? You’ve got it all backward Pierson. It is Palestinian civilians being killed in Israeli Occupied Palestine. I have elsewhere in this site provided a the circumstances of more than a hundred murders of Palestinian children by the IOF. Here are two more. At the risk of being run off the site by the moderators for super-long posts I can provide hundreds of others in small doses. Perhaps then you’d understand the nature of the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.

    28 January 2008
    Qusay Suleiman Muhammad al-Afandi, 16, of Dheisheh refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire to his abdomen while walking to his father’s store during an incursion.

    19 February 2008
    Tamer Muhammad Abdul-Riziq abu-Shar, 9, of Wadi al-Salqa, near Khan Younis, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his head while he and his family attempted to flee their home during an incursion.

    And Pierson, you should understand that it is ONLY Israel that has been hauled into court for using human shields – and found guilty. Doesn’t stop them however. As for the Palestinians – they are defending the homeland – and in the case of Gaza the homeland is the size of the City of Atlanta with three times Atlanta’s population. So you’ll have to excuse them for being in proximity of each other (they have no military) when Israel invades. And it is, after all, ILLEGAL for Israel to attack civilians – not that illegality stops them.

    Hey Gideon – Funny you should reference Benny Morris. Morris documents the ethnic cleansing of Palestine by the Jews from ’47 – ’49, including the incineration techniques and sexual atrocities committed by the Jews in order that Palestine be cleansed of its 700,000 native natural inhabitants. Morris’s problem is that as a ultra-nationalist rightwinger, he BELIEVES in ethnic cleansing. So he had no problem getting the story right!

  11. Barry said on March 1st, 2009 at 8:52am #

    Joel Kovel has been sacked from Bard College.

    His book ‘Overcoming Zionism’ published by Pluto, saw the Zionist lobby
    mobilise against him and his continuing criticism of Israel was found unacceptable. Anti-Zionism, even from Jewish anti-racists
    is labelled anti-Semitism and suppressed.

    Just as was done to Finklestein. Just as done to US politicians who speak out against Israel.

  12. mebosa ritchie said on March 1st, 2009 at 8:59am #

    Five Palestinian smugglers were killed on Sunday and another person was missing after a tunnel collapsed under the Gaza border, Palestinian medics said.

    Palestinians work on constructing new and repairing old smuggling tunnels along the border with Egypt, damaged during Operation Cast Lead.

    Tunnels are regularly used by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to smuggle in weapons since Egypt imposed a blockade around the territory in response to the ongoing rocket fire into the western Negev.
    Many tunnels suffered major damage in the aerial bombing campaign of Operation Cast Lead. Egypt has also tried to destroy tunnel entrances on its side of the border.

    The latest deaths, which occurred late Saturday or early Sunday brought to 13 the number Palestinians killed this year in tunneling accidents.

  13. mebosa ritchie said on March 1st, 2009 at 9:01am #

    sorry,forgot to mention

    for barry–presumably they were civilians bringing in weapons

  14. Barry said on March 1st, 2009 at 9:24am #

    Mebosa – I suppose these Palestinians were bringing in Apache helicopters, gun-ships, air-to-ground missiles, Merkava tanks, Abrams Tanks, drones, cluster bombs, depleted uranium shells, and phosphorus bombs.

    Egypt did not impose a blockade because Palestinians were firing rockets into the Negev (which is pretty much like blowing off firecrackers). Egypt imposed a blockade because Israel told Mubarak to do so – and Mubarak knows who controls the purse-strings on US subsidies to Egypt.

    We call it smuggling – the word ‘smuggling’ is just an Israeli and US admission that Gaza is under Israeli siege and occupation – and so cannot possibly be said to be ‘importing’ goods, just smuggling. I wish the smugglers every success – its a dangerous job – but someone has to do it.

  15. Max Shields said on March 1st, 2009 at 10:38am #

    Barry, the language of demonization goes so deep that the likes of mebosa pass it off (with sincerity) as a thoughtful explanation.

    Never asking the question, how can a people “smuggle” on the one hand, but not be “occupied” on the other. The contractions are nullified through the inculcation of demonization of Palestinians through the power structure of Israeli-Zionists.

    It is the divide and rule of people. In the US, in the early 19th Century, free blacks and white laborers revolted (Bacon’s Rebellion) the govenment smashed the revolt and created an enduring wedge through the divide and rule that is played out in demonization and racism.

    The tactic is as old as civilization itself. Actors like mebosa don’t even realize they are pawns in this power and domination game that keeps the powerful in control, manipulating the subjects in waging a war agains the other, to concentrate their hold on power.

    Keep it up Barry. Your analysis on this topic is always a pleasure to read.

  16. bozh said on March 1st, 2009 at 10:58am #

    max,
    a sharp observation by you: an occupied people can only obtain weapons via smugling.
    while israel get’s them when needed and more or less openly.

    about demonizing a people. this ‘category’ of humans never existed. it is an invention and a powerful tool in getting cannot fodder to evaluate as true.

    ruling classes everywhere had also invented stupidity, ignorance,
    evil, spirits , gods, acne, pimples, white teeth, body odor, cripple, housewife, bastard, unruly, etc., and imbued them with dysphemisms of all kind.

    one has pimples! yellow teeth, b.o!, etc. oh my devil, that’s just not good. we have remedies for all that. you can’t just ignore these problems! thnx

  17. Tree said on March 1st, 2009 at 11:35am #

    Yes, a really good point made by Max. Also, I’m not familiar with Bacon’s Rebellion but now I want to learn more. Max, I appreciate a lot of your comments.

  18. Shabnam said on March 1st, 2009 at 11:45am #

    People on this site must learn to read better. It was NOT max who
    made the connection between ‘smuggling’ and ‘occupation.’
    It was BARRY who mentioned the connection. Why don’t you read his lines again:

    {We call it smuggling – the word ’smuggling’ is just an Israeli and US admission that Gaza is under Israeli siege and occupation – and so cannot possibly be said to be ‘importing’ goods, just smuggling. I wish the smugglers every success – its a dangerous job – but someone has to do it.}

    Why do people repeate someone else’s mistake?

  19. Max Shields said on March 1st, 2009 at 11:57am #

    Thank you Tree and Bozh

    I must correct one error: the Bacon Rebellion was in 1676 (not the early 19th century). It is not so much the man, Bacon, but the movement from which this and other rebellions were given impetus.

    What fascinates me about the so-called “levelers” movement in early colonial times. Howard Zinn writes about this in terms of a movement to end poverty. This quote comes from David Korten. I have addressed this issue within the context of land and Henry George, the American political economist. While this may seem separate from this thread’s topic I would say that it is a universal problem and Israel/Palestine reflect is unresolve today:
    “Past Efforts to End Poverty in the United States
    1. The Levelers
    As vividly recounted by Howard Zinn in A People’s History of the United States, from the moment that the colonial elite first began to monopolize land, those who were excluded resisted with calls for “leveling,” or equalizing wealth. Inspired by similar movements in England, Levelers in the colonies were a potent force.

    From testimony by elites, it is clear that protests such as Bacon’s Rebellion in Virginia in 1676 had strong support among the general population and that this support was motivated by “hopes of leveling.” Though lacking a clear focus, Bacon’s Rebellion mobilized enough force that the governor had to flee the capital before military reserves overwhelmed the disorganized rebels – who consisted of indentured servants, slaves, and poor whites who had been forced to the frontier when they did not receive land grants near the coast.

    Agitation for a redistribution of economic resources persisted throughout the colonies, leaving elites in constant fear that the masses would confiscate their wealth. Strikes, slowdowns, and other worker protests over inadequate compensation are recorded from as early as 1636. According to Zinn:

    Starting with Bacon’s Rebellion, by 1760, there had been eighteen uprisings aimed at overthrowing colonial governments. These had also been six black rebellions, from South Carolina to New York, and forty riots of various origins.
    Examples of the Leveler’s movement include:

    In 1713, rioters broke into warehouses in Boston looking for food and shot the Lieutenant Governor.
    Some twenty years later, protesters in Boston destroyed a public market objecting to the high prices of food.
    Physical confrontations over squatters’ rights to land were common.
    After rioters in Boston looted the house of the wealthy Thomas Hutchinson, colonial officials reported to England that there was “a War of Plunder, of general leveling and taking away of the Distinction of rich and poor.”
    In 1776, a committee drafting the Pennsylvania Constitution argued:
    an enormous proportion of property vested in a few individuals is dangerous to the rights, and destructive of the common happiness, of mankind; and therefore every free state hath a right by its laws to discourage the possession of such property.
    In North Carolina, from 1766 to 1771, the Regulators, who opposed the “rich and powerful [and government officials] whose highest Study is the promotion of their wealth,” fought against the collection of debts owed by poor farmers.
    Most Levelers allied with wealthy elites to defeat the British in the War of Independence, but the elites quelled their protests following victory. The strength of underlying populist sentiment is reflected in a 1785 letter from Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, in which he reflected upon “that unequal division of property which occasions the numberless instances of wretchedness which I had observed in this country and is to be observed all over Europe.” Jefferson continued with this comment:

    [T]he earth is given as a common stock for man to labour and live-on. If, for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be furnished to those excluded from the appropriation. If we do not the fundamental right to labour the earth returns to the unemployed.
    This point-of-view has continued to motivate populist protest in this country ever since. Periodic campaigns against economic injustice persisted, though the term “leveling” faded. “

  20. Tree said on March 1st, 2009 at 12:02pm #

    Good grief, Shabnam I didn’t mean to insult Barry.

  21. Max Shields said on March 1st, 2009 at 12:07pm #

    Tree, for a more cogent bit of history on Bacon’s Rebellion:
    From Zinn’s A People’s History: http://www.ditext.com/zinn/zinn3.html

  22. Tree said on March 1st, 2009 at 12:14pm #

    Thanks, Max. Will take a look.

  23. RH2 said on March 1st, 2009 at 12:45pm #

    mebosa ritchie,

    This is not a chat, complacency or history-classroom forum. So I am not going to chat with you about the “Bacon Rebellion”. Let us stick to the point. You have written, “The latest deaths, which occurred late Saturday or early Sunday brought to 13 the number Palestinians killed this year in tunneling accidents.” Do you want to tell us that Palestinians are responsible for their death? I would appreciate some more details.

  24. Gideon said on March 1st, 2009 at 12:57pm #

    Is smuggling a sign of occupation? It does occur every day across US borders.

    Smuggling is a very profitable business around the world. Anybody who lost his /her life in a smuggling operations should be considered killed in law enforcement and/or cost of doing business (when the tunnel collapses) rather than in any military activity.

    Do any published casualty stats reflect these law enforcement / cost of doing business deaths?
    What about the age of the smugglers? If they use children under 17 or women, should they be classified as “children killed by IDF” or “abused children used in smuggling”? Who is responsible for these deaths?
    Hamas may not be directly involved in these operations, which are performed by Gaza “entrepreneurs”.

    Who finances weapon and ammunition purchases and smuggling to Gaza? How much is that cost compared to the Gaza International humanitarian aid?

  25. Barry said on March 1st, 2009 at 1:16pm #

    Thanks much Shabnam, but it is okay. The point still holds no matter who made it first. And Max and others expanded on it. But I do appreciate your intentions!

  26. Gideon said on March 1st, 2009 at 1:17pm #

    Palestinian death conveniently and falsely “pinned” on IDF? 28 Jan 2008, Dheisheh refugee camp.
    “Qusay Suleiman Muhammad al-Afandi, 16, killed by IDF gunfire to his abdomen while walking to his father’s store during an incursion.”

    Barry
    You are loosing credibility.
    Yes, you know how to copy and paste!

    So please tell us Who really KILLED Qusay Suleiman Muhammad al-Afandi, 16 on Jan 28 , 2008 in Dheisheh refugee camp and what he was involved with?

    Dheishe is mentioned with regards to vegetable prices in their monthly (very detailed) report from Jan 2008
    IDF did have activity in Nablus and Gaza.
    http://www.ochaopt.org/document /Humanitarian_Monitor_Jan_08.pdf

    Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs Occupied Palestinian Territory
    OCHA aims to improve the humanitarian situation by enhancing coordination between agencies to ensure effective distribution of humanitarian assistance. It also enhances coordination and decision making through its dissemination of humanitarian information and analysis of facts.

  27. RH2 said on March 1st, 2009 at 1:18pm #

    Gideon,

    Thank you for sticking to the point. Smuggling also occurs everyday across the EU borders. But, are you courageous enough to mention the word “occupation” of Palestinians? If you do that, we shall talk about smuggling as a form of business.

  28. Barry said on March 1st, 2009 at 1:30pm #

    Gideon is off in the ozone again. Smuggling indeed goes on outside of occupations. But the fact that no one ever talks of Gazan imports but only talks in terms of their smuggling items in (some of which are armaments for the resistance) begs the question: Why can’t Gazans bring goods in and out like everyone else – through a seaport (destroyed by Israel) or airport (destroyed by Israel) or overland (through openings in the cage)? Or maybe for Gideon it begs the question: Why can’t Gazans live without food, clothes, or housing materials? Let’s see what happens to people who are denied these essentials. Anyway, to make a long story short – it’s the occupation, stupid.

    I give to Palestinian aid societies whenever I can. If the funds go for ‘imports’, I’m cool with that.

  29. Barry said on March 1st, 2009 at 1:39pm #

    Gideon – You can freely have the source of my info (if you are finally pained by reading through my copy/paste jobs). You can google ‘Remember These Children.’ They count the deaths of all children, both sides, for the entire Intifada – so far through the end of 2008. It is quite clear that the IOF targets children up close and personal – in their homeland, and in their very homes. Do remember to note the weight of numbers!

  30. Gideon said on March 1st, 2009 at 1:59pm #

    Palestinian death conveniently and falsely “pinned” on IDF? Who really KILLED Qusay Suleiman in Dheisheh Jan 28 , 2008 ?

    NO support in ANY Palestinian reports!

  31. Barry said on March 1st, 2009 at 1:59pm #

    Gideon – While you did not provide anything whatsoever to indicate that the death of 16-year old Qusay was accomplished by anyone but the IOF, the site you referred to (below) indicates that you are now reading UN documents that clearly indicate that Gaza is Israeli-occupied. Now that’s progress!

    http://www.ochaopt.org/?module=displaysection&section_id=118&static=0&edition_id=&format=html

  32. Shabnam said on March 1st, 2009 at 2:22pm #

    “Smuggling is a very profitable business around the world. Anybody who lost his /her life in a smuggling operations should be considered killed in law enforcement and/or cost of doing business (when the tunnel collapses) rather than in any military activity.”

    Zionist liars who have been exposed as war criminals have no shame are trying to distort the facts to deceive ignorant people. These colonists do not know that smuggling is done when the receiving target does not want it; therefore, they make it a criminal act if it does occur across the border, for example, when people are smuggling goods and human who are desperate to escape from dangerous situation at home, where designated country has a law against it. Palestinians put their lives at risk to bring much needed goods like food and medicine through tunnels on their border where is labeled ‘smuggling’ by the occupiers. If Palestinian in their land wants to bring goods, anything, to protect themselves and their children, it is not your fu**ing business that you kill them with your billions dollar WMD on their own land where you control their borders from the land, the sea, and from the air. Then you attacked GAZA with your WMD to kill toddlers and create Gaza Holocaust so you can steal more of their land, like in the past, through destruction of their houses. You have broken the seize fire on November 4, 2008, election day, by bombing Palestinians and killed 6 of them. This fact has been repeatedly said by many people including Jimmy Carter, and you have gone deaf since. According to Palestinian, TNT, one of the components of their primitive rocket system is coming from ISRAEL.
    Please look at the following link to see ‘the Palestinian arm industry.’ You were killing Palestinian in hundreds, when they threw stone at you, to steal more of their land. These rockets are messages from Palestinians and other people in the region to the colonists to get lost.

    {Qassams are primitive missiles lacking any guidance system. Building one is “child’s play,” Abdul says: One of the team welds the rocket casings together from metal pipes, while another fills the warhead with up to three kilograms of TNT. “TNT,” says Abdul and produces a chunk. The explosive looks like lumpy sugar. A large cauldron is sitting ready on a gas cooker while bags with HEBREW writing are piled up high up against the wall. “Fertilizer for the rocket fuel,” Abdul says and grins. “We get it in Israel.”}
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,531578,00.html

  33. Barry said on March 1st, 2009 at 2:23pm #

    Gideon – Regarding Israel’s attack on Gaza, (which you would think it would not need to attack, since it already holds it under siege) Yuri Avnery, the Israeli journalist has this to say:

    “THERE IS not the slightest doubt that in the Gaza war, crimes were committed. The question is to what extent and by whom.

    Example: the soldiers call on the residents of a house to leave it. A woman and her four children come out, waving white handkerchiefs. It is absolutely clear that they are not armed fighters. A soldier in a near-by tank stands up, points his rifle and shoots them dead at short range. According to testimonies that seem to be beyond doubt, this happened more than once.

    Another example: the shelling of the United Nations school full of refugees, from which there was no shooting – as admitted by the army, after the original pretexts were disproved.”

    Where I would differ with Avnery is on who to bring to Europe for trial – Olmert, Ehud Barak, Netanyahu and Avigdor Lieberman (OK – Joe, too) come quickly to mind. And while we are at it – Bush and Cheney.

  34. Gideon said on March 1st, 2009 at 3:03pm #

    Who really KILLED Qusay Suleiman in Dheisheh Jan 28 , 2008 ? Death conveniently and falsely “pinned” on IDF?

    NO support in ANY Palestinian reports!

    Barry

    You brought this specific case up.
    Either take responsibility for your statement and admit error or provide support.

    You can’t throw around baseless accusations!

  35. bozh said on March 1st, 2009 at 4:37pm #

    a people with even modicum of intelligence and honesty wld never commit such horrendous crimes just to obtain a tiny and impoverished piece of territory that israel is.

    but a more sinister people with a cult wld and have done it. and regardless whether that people have any or no connection with either hebrews nor judeans.

    but, of course, the people of a cult, are not waging warfare and delaying peace just to obtain such a wretched piece of territory. who, being sober, wld?
    i firmly suggest ‘zionists’ want much, much more.

    but even if israel obtains lebanon, syria, iraq, and jordan it wld still be a poor empire. such an empire wld still depend on many lands to supply that empire with either raw or refined metals.

    the region has oil but almost nothing else. and one can be sure that no socialist land wld ever help israel in any way; nor trade with it.
    socialists and fascists will remain enemies.

    but even russia with its vast resources wld not trade with cultists;
    muslim cultists wld also not help israel.
    and once US weakens a lot, it may not be able to be much of a help.
    US, itself, harbors strong cults- religious and nonreligious.
    and the two opposing cults will clash.

    so, the question arises, who is using whom? i’ll bet $10K that it is US which is using israel.
    whatever the end, it’ll be what US wants. thnx

  36. mebosa ritchie said on March 1st, 2009 at 4:46pm #

    gideon,i have to admire your optimism–You can’t throw around baseless accusations! you have just said
    this entire website is full of baseless accusations from barry,shabnam,bozh,mary,max shields,etc–they all write crap
    1 the holocaust in gaza—killing 1,000 armed terrorists doesn’t constitute a holocaust
    2. the people of gaza are starving—most hamas leaders shown are fat and need to eat less not more the starving are in africa
    3. the gaza boys are smuggling in food–no,they are not the food comes in as from egypt and israel–they are smuggling in explosives and cigarettes
    4.israel occupies gaza—no,it doesn’t
    if hamas stopped rocketing israel and released gilad shalit then israel would open the crossings
    5.
    6.
    far too many to go on about but they are all lies put about to discredit israel;to try and destroy the jewish state
    you are wasting your time

  37. bozh said on March 1st, 2009 at 4:57pm #

    mebosa,
    i am much interested what shemitic girls wear and what kind of love making they like.
    i am tired of talking about the weighty matters such tunnel collapsing, gazans killing gazans, men hiding behind skirts, pal’ns being lazy/uncultured/inept, etc.
    do the girls wear pink panties or go pantiless like spears/hilton? how about israeli girls? they must be much better at using makeup? are they good at the arab belly dancing? etcetc.
    btw, what is “thnkx” in arabic/hebrew? thnx

  38. mebosa ritchie said on March 1st, 2009 at 5:01pm #

    bozh–and i was beginning to think you were not normal
    at last you seem to be developing normal interests
    not for you 72 virginians in paradise
    keep it up-it doesn’t really make you go blind

  39. mebosa ritchie said on March 1st, 2009 at 5:08pm #

    bozh,i would recommend this for you. it’s made with good israeli dead sea products

    Aromatics Night Cream modifies the skin’s texture, promotes cell growth and maintains moisture thereby guarding against lines and wrinkles. High in concentration of Dead Sea Minerals and herbal extracts. This Anti-Wrinkle Cream helps to prevent:

    Visible signs of aging
    Can reduce the depth of wrinkles
    Ingredients:
    How to use:
    Apply daily to face and neck in circular motion until completely absorbed.

  40. Barry said on March 1st, 2009 at 5:34pm #

    Mebosa – As you know, the Remember the Children website is legit. Not only does it have the circumstances of all the killings of Palestinian children it has all the circumstances of the killings of Israeli children. Were I to post the killings of the latter, I think we can assume Gideon would suddenly find this site useful.
    1) Indeed the killing of thousand of any population group does not constitute a Holocaust. In this instance though, the 1000+ children is on top of the more than 3000 adults killed by Israel since 2000, to which we have to add the 1300 or so (including hundreds of children and women) just last month. And we should add the many thousands Israel has killed since its declaration of statehood, and to be fair we have to add the tens or hundreds of thousands that Israel has permanently scarred and maimed over the years, and the millions it has violently forced into exile. That constitutes genocide – and does so by United Nation’s definition of genocide. When does a genocide become a Holocaust? I don’t think we want to find that out.
    2) The UN has documented that the people of Gaza are in a state of severe malnutrition because of the Israeli siege. As in virtually all societies, the brunt of malnutrition falls on women and children – children who – it should be obvious – are in a stage of life where proper nutrition is essential. As for the fat men, they know where to find food, even if it means all carbohydrates and no veggies and little meat. AND, you can bet that among the poor of Gaza, its gone beyond malnutrition and into starvation. But don’t listen to me, its the UN that counts.
    3) The ‘smugglers’ do indeed bring in food – and guns. Gotta have both to survive the siege and occupation. Gaza should not have to depend on the well-known niggardlyness of Israel for food and medicine. Even if Israel wants to be subhuman on the matter, there is no way Israel should be permitted to block access to Gaza by sea or through the gates bordering Egypt (said gates under Israeli control). For that matter, Gaza is supposed to have a conduit to the West Bank – Israel was required to provide that. Of course, not having done so is hardly Israel’s greatest crime.
    4) Israel occupies Gaza. You and Gideon saying it does not occupy Gaza hardly makes you right. The United States, the World, the United Nations deems Gaza to be under Israeli occupation, just as it has been since June 1967. Israel having moved its squatters out, or having redeployed its military does not constitute having lifted the occupation. The world does not always fall for Israeli trickery. Gaza is under occupation and siege. That is genocide.
    5) The closing of the crossing has nothing to do with rockets. You read the Remember the children link. Did you count the missile attacks on Palestine? Or put it this way, did you notice how effective – in terms of dead kids – that the Israeli missile attacks are? The rocket attacks are child’s play by comparison. How many dead Israelis over the years from these rockets? Now go back to RtC website and count the dead Palestinian kids. Not even the adults – just the kids. So quit it with the rocket attacks. It is a DISINGENUOUS argument.
    Gilad Shalit? How is it that we know his name? How is it that we don’t know the names of the Palestinian kidnapped (is it ten or 15 thousand in israeli prisons?) How is it that Israel has imprisoned dozens of Hamas party representatives and we not only don’t know their names, one would have to be a detective to find them out. How about Marwan Barghouti in Israeli prison on trumped up charges (actually in prison because he’s popular among Palestinians? You like trades? 10,000 Palestinians in Israeli gulags, plus 30 Hamas representatives, plus Barghouti – for Gilad Shalit. If Shalit is that hot-shit important to the Israelis then they’ll do it. But they won’t – because Shalit functions as a MARTYR. The Israeli gov’t should be frank about that with Shalit’s parents and the public. Israel worships martyrs too.
    6) What does it mean to destroy the Jewish state? Even Apartheid South Africa did not go so far to call itself the White State, or the Boer State, or the Afrikaans State. Even they did not have the temerity to deny the existence of the native natural people of that country.
    I cannot speak for anyone else on this site, but as far as I’m concerned, there is no reason for Jews to go anywhere. But you have to make a choice – either vacate and free all of the WB&G in their entirety – and a just return and compensation of refugees OR a unitary state of one adult, one vote. The clock is ticking.

  41. Gideon said on March 1st, 2009 at 5:35pm #

    Israeli journalists and public figures often criticize Israeli Government. It’s called Democracy.

    Just because an opinion is expressed by an Israeli journalist does not make it a fact or truth or reality , it’s still just one person opinion, even if he is Ury Avenery.

    It is easy to forget that when one is used to live in , analyze or advocate for Dictatorship , Monarchy, “pretend Democracy” or Terrorist state.

  42. Gideon said on March 1st, 2009 at 6:17pm #

    Remember The Children:False blame undermines credibility! Life lost should be Remembered, no matter the circumstances!

    Barry
    I want to believe that you take any loss of life as seriously as we all do.

    Please in the future when you can’t support your statement about a certain death, even so it may be tempting to blame Israel, just stick with “unknown”.

    When Gaza casualties reports will become available, please try to be more accurate in classifying and analyzing and critical of the sources.

  43. Gideon said on March 2nd, 2009 at 8:32am #

    Israeli model on the cover of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit 2009 Issue . When can we see this on the Gaza beach – the next Riviera of the Middle East?

  44. Gideon said on March 2nd, 2009 at 8:37am #

    Israeli model on the cover of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit 2009 Issue.
    Resist this?

    That’s shared values! The change we can believe in!

    Let’s transform Gaza to the next Palestinian Riviera and the next location for filming of Sports Illustrated!

  45. Shabnam said on March 2nd, 2009 at 8:46am #

    Your shared value is killing like in Abu Gharib, in Gaza, in Sudan, in Pakistan, in Lebonan, in Iraq, in Solamial, in Asia, in…

    http://www.slide.com/r/IHWYxF6Zmz_98jgaPj9cBq-N7xCU4Q5Q?previous_view=TICKER&previous_action=TICKER_ITEM_CLICK&ciid=72057594261634480

  46. Barry said on March 2nd, 2009 at 8:47am #

    No Gideon, the burden is on you to disprove Remember These Children – a non-partisan and reputable source. After all, it is YOU who are saying that IDF had not gone into Gaza. I am saying they go into Gaza ALL the time – guns ablazing. While you are researching your burden, here are some more for you to peruse. GAZA children killings by IDF in May/June 2008. Average age of this group:13; Youngest: 8; oldest: 17. IDF murders – up close and personal. (And remember, this does not include adults – and does not include the West Bank.)

    Let me remind you it was you who challenged anyone to show that the IDF has been in Gaza between the squatter pull-out and the January slaughter and it was you who claimed that the IDF does not deliberately fire at civilians. So you LOST on both accounts. Unless you can prove otherwise.

    5 June 2008
    Aya Hamdan Hamdan al-Najjar, 8, of Khuza, near Khan Younis, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while playing near her home.

    8 May 2008
    Sami Jamil Abdul-Aziz abu-Anza, 17, of Abasan al-Jadida, near Khan Younis, Gaza, died of abdominal and thigh wounds sustained from IDF gunfire on May 7.

    11 May 2008
    Muntasser Muhammad Juma abu-Anza, 15, of Abasan al-Jadida, near Khan Younis, Gaza, died of wounds sustained from IDF gunfire on May 7.

    19 May 2008
    Fahmi Abdul-Jawad Hussein al-Darduk, 15, of Ayn Beit al-Ma refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire while lifting his shirt for a soldier at the Huwara checkpoint.

    20 May 2008
    Majid Ziad Muhammad Okal, 11, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while playing near a Palestinian rocket launching site.

    22 May 2008
    Hussein Abdul-Karim Ramadan Ahel, 16, of Gaza City, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his abdomen during a demonstration of 5,000 people at the al-Mentat checkpoint.

    Hadeel Abdul-Karim Suleiman al-Sumairi, 8, of al-Qarara, near Khan Younis, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling while playing near her home.

    Let me remind you it was you who challenged anyone to show that the IDF has been in Gaza between the squatter pull-out and the January slaughter and it was you who claimed that the IDF does not deliberately fire at civilians. So you have LOST on both challlenges. Unless you can prove otherwise. Ball’s in your court, Gideon.

  47. Barry said on March 2nd, 2009 at 8:58am #

    Gideon – You are reduced to the proud claim of an SI swimsuit cover? As opposed to what? Israeli women and girls posing on line with legs open?

    Gaza beach is where the IDF has been known to shoot Palestinian kids playing on the dunes. They’ll be no nude photo-shoots there any time soon. However, it would be nice if Israel (via the US taxpayer) rebuilt the port facilities they destroyed – and promise to stop shooting Gaza fisherman.

  48. Gideon said on March 2nd, 2009 at 9:02am #

    Death conveniently and falsely “pinned” on IDF? Dheisheh is in Beit Lehem NOT in Gaza!

    Who really KILLED Qusay Suleiman in Dheisheh on Jan 28 , 2008 ?

    NO support in ANY Palestinian reports!

  49. Gideon said on March 2nd, 2009 at 9:39am #

    USA – Israel: peoples with shared values! Swim Suite who does not like it? How do you negotiate with someone like that?

    Hamas vision for Palestinian women: women oppression
    * No to Swim Suite edition.
    * No to driving.
    * No to independent voting.
    * Four wives for each husband.
    * Six children for each wife.
    * Keep them pregnant, bare footed and in the kitchen .

    “Parsley Ladies” how about them apples?

  50. mebosa ritchie said on March 2nd, 2009 at 9:39am #

    FOR BARRY
    see below FOR HOW MUCH hamas-whom you support-care about children

    Hamas spokesman Fathi Hamad, Feb. 29, 2008: The Palestinian nation has developed its (methods) of death and death seeking death has become an industry at which women excel the elderly excel and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, and the children, the elderly and the mujahideen It was as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death like you desire life.

  51. mebosa ritchie said on March 2nd, 2009 at 9:53am #

    barry- just seen the remember these children a non-partisan and reputable source.
    you have to be joking
    i wouldn’t believe a word on that site
    very good pallywood tv and cinema to use children to play on western sensitivities
    if you really value children and their lives you don’t hide behind them using them as human shields

  52. Shabnam said on March 2nd, 2009 at 10:01am #

    It was the zionists , worse than fascists, who used civilians as HUMAN SHIELDS IN BEIT HANUN. The Zionists liars better to stop their propaganda campaign and accept the fact that they have committed war crimes and genocide against defenseless people. They should be held responsible and those in charge of genocide must receive punishment not less than Adolph Ikeman, unless we are told that there are two different systems at play, one for the ‘chosen people’ and one for the rest.
    http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article5149.shtml

  53. mebosa ritchie said on March 2nd, 2009 at 10:11am #

    SHABNAM you can read what your mates in hamas,and probably you,think. in case you didn’t read it addressed to barry

    Hamas spokesman Fathi Hamad, Feb. 29, 2008: The Palestinian nation has developed its (methods) of death and death seeking death has become an industry at which women excel the elderly excel and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, and the children, the elderly and the mujahideen It was as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death like you desire life.

  54. mebosa ritchie said on March 2nd, 2009 at 10:15am #

    Widow of Hamas Internal Terror Victim Speaks Out

    The Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR) has called on the ruling Hamas government in Gaza to investigate the kidnap and murder of a 40-year-old man. The victim was kidnapped by masked gunmen last Thursday night from a relative’s home in the al-Daraj neighborhood in eastern Gaza City, according to PCHR.

    At 8:00 a.m. Friday, his wife testified, his lifeless body was dumped at the entrance of Shifa Hospital with two bullet holes in his head. But the story actually began a couple of weeks after the Hamas terrorists had seized control of Gaza and arrested her husband. The widow’s actual testimony about the internal terror campaign conducted by Hamas follows:

    “On 25 July 2007, the Internal Security Service (ISS) arrested my husband, Hamza al-Shoubaki, and we did not know anything about him. We submitted complaints to human rights organizations and contacted members of Hamas to find his whereabouts, but all our efforts failed.

    “Approximately four months later, I visited my husband at the ISS prison in al-Saraya security compound after I had received a phone call from him. He seemed weak and there were clear signs of beating and torture on his body. Later, my husband appeared before a military court and a number of court sessions were held to consider his case.

    “On 28 December 2008, my husband attempted to flee from the prison but he was abducted by militants. They fired at his legs and dumped him in Sheikh ‘Ejlin neighborhood in the southwest of Gaza City.

    “We moved my husband to our house, where he received medical treatment for one month. On 4 and 18 February [2009], a number of gunmen came to our house. They claimed to be members of the ISS and asked about my husband, who was not at home.

    “At approximately 22:00 on Thursday, 26 February, masked gunmen abducted my husband from a relative’s house and took him to an unknown destination. At around 08:00 the following day, Friday [27 February] we received a phone call from Shifa Hospital. The hospital informed us that my husband had been admitted. His brothers went to hospital and found that he had been shot dead. They saw signs of beating throughout his body.”

    Amnesty Int’l Documents Beatings, Torture in Gaza
    The human rights organization Amnesty International charged Hamas last month with “abductions, killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of ‘collaborating with Israel’ as well as opponents and critics.”

    In a report published February 11, the organization noted “At least two dozen [PA men in Gaza] have been kneecapped, beaten or otherwise tortured or ill-treated.” Most, said Amnesty Int’l, were abducted from their homes. However, some were kidnapped even from the hospitals where they were recovering from illnesses or wounds.

    The allegations came as the result of eyewitness accounts that were gathered by a fact-finding team present in Gaza during and after the IDF’s counterterrorist Operation Cast Lead, which ran from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009.

    Amnesty International called on Hamas to end its campaign of internal terror and agree to an independent, impartial and nonpartisan commission of inquiry.

  55. Gideon said on March 2nd, 2009 at 10:31am #

    Resistance to Hamas Security Service? Hamza al-Shoubaki counted as IDF victim?

    I could not find any articles on Dissident Voice about the Terror in Gaza rained by Hamas gangs: Military wing, Security wing, “Political” wing.

    Any Dissidents would like to Voice their concerns?

    Hamza al-Shoubaki executed by Hamas Security Service by two bullets to his head from close range. Where does he come up in Gaza casualties statistics?

    “Parsley Ladies” may be a demonstration in support of free speech?

    Democracy and Freedom of Speech
    Israeli and Palestinian meet for a coffee.
    Israeli: We have a democracy, I can stand in the middle of Jerusalem and criticize Israeli government as much as I want.
    Palestinian: We also have a democracy, I can stand in the middle of Gaza and criticize Israeli government as much as I want.

  56. Barry said on March 2nd, 2009 at 10:53am #

    Gideon – So what if Dheisheh is in the West Bank and not Gaza. The point was that the IDF kills children at point blank range. But of course they also do that in Gaza – see some of the others I have posted.

  57. Barry said on March 2nd, 2009 at 11:04am #

    No joke Mebosa (and you know that but cannot admit to it). RtC says 1,056 children killed by Israel between 2000 and 2008. And guess what – B’tselem, the ISRAEL human rights group says 955 Palestinian children killed by Israel over same period. So they are both lying, right? Put it this way – neither Mebosa nor Gideon have ANY documentation otherwise. So let’s be clear. Israeli Occupation Forces have killed approximately 1000 Palestinian children between the end of 2000 and 12/08. These children have been killed by Israeli shells, Israeli missiles, missiles fired from drones, tank-fire, and most famously, they’ve been shot at point blank range – sometimes while surrendering – all in their Palestinian homeland – even in their very homes. The only country that Israel shares its values with one that came to its end in 1945. What they share is hatred for the untermenschen and a taste for organized butchery. Even the 3rd reich did not dot the i’s and cross the t’s like the ‘Democratic’ Israel does.

  58. Barry said on March 2nd, 2009 at 11:16am #

    Here’s a list (2008 only) of Palestinians who died following an infringement of the right to medical treatment in the Occupied Territories. Very civilized those Israelis, no?

    2008

    Infant boy of Nahil and Muayad Abu Rideh
    Under 1 year-old resident of Nablus, died on 05.09.2008 , Nablus district, following a delay in receiving medical care. Additional information: The baby was stillborn following a delay of more than forty minutes at a checkpoint.

    Iyad Salman Salem al-Hamaydah
    36 year-old resident of Rafah, died on 09.07.2008 in Rafah, following a delay in receiving medical care.

    Muhammad Hamdan Hamidan Abu Hweishel
    68 year-old resident of Deir al-Balah, died on 11.05.2008 in Deir al-Balah, following a delay in receiving medical care.

    Fawzeyeh ‘Abd al-Fatah Yusef a-Darak (Qab)
    66 year-old resident of Deir al-Ghusun, Tulkarm district, died on 14.02.2008 , Tulkarm district, following a delay in receiving medical care. Additional information: Suffered a heart attack and died after soldiers at al-Jarushiya checkpoint did not permit her evcauation to hospital in Tulkarm.

    Ratebah Muhammad Ibrahim al-Khatib
    45 year-old resident of Gaza city, died on 22.01.2008 in Gaza city, following a delay in receiving medical care.

    Fatma ‘Ali Da’ud a-Lidawi
    44 year-old resident of Gaza city, died on 21.01.2008 in Gaza city, following a delay in receiving medical care. Additional information: She was ill with spleen and liver problems. Israeli officials delayed her entry into Israel for five days after her scheduled appointment. On the day she was allowed to enter, officials delayed her passage through Erez Crossing for a few hours, and she arrived in serious condition at Ichilov Hospital, where she died a week later.

    Shirin Isma’il ‘Abdallah Abu Shawareb
    9 year-old resident of a-Nuseirat Camp, Deir al-Balah district, died on 15.01.2008 in Gaza city, following a delay in receiving medical care.

    Yihya Mustafa Salim al-Jamal
    54 year-old resident of Gaza city, died on 12.01.2008 in Gaza city, following a delay in receiving medical care.

  59. mebosa ritchie said on March 2nd, 2009 at 11:19am #

    so barry,it appears you’re not impressed by israel.
    such is life
    who cares about your views apart from your dissident voice mates who post endless crap condemnning israel’s existence in the hope that it will change anything
    it won’t
    the jews have been around for 4,000 years and have seen off greater enemies than you
    but if your obsession against the jews and their state keeps you happy then keep smiling

  60. mebosa ritchie said on March 2nd, 2009 at 11:22am #

    barry
    more stuff to feed your prejudice

    EGYPTIAN CLERIC: “JEWS INFECT FOOD WITH CANCER AND SHIP IT TO MUSLIM
    > COUNTRIES”
    from a sermon by Egyptian cleric Ahmad Abd
    > Al-Salam, which aired on Al-Nas TV on January 28, 2009.
    >
    > “The Jews invest their utmost efforts, day and night, in conspiring how to
    > corrupt the Islamic nation, the nation led by the Prophet Muhammad.
    >
    > “I want you, Muslim viewers, to imagine the Jews sitting around a table,
    > conspiring how to corrupt the Muslims.
    >
    > “The Jews conspire to infect the food of the Muslims with cancer. It is
    > the Jews who infect food with cancer and ship it to Muslim countries.
    >
    > “We hate the Jews because they spare no effort in stripping Muslim girls
    > of their clothes. It is the Jews who conspire to have Muslim girls, and
    > even married Muslim women, wear clothes that are tight, short, or
    > see-through, or clothes that are open from the front, or the back, from
    > the right or the left.
    >
    > “The sexual temptations, which are prevalent worldwide, were conspired by
    > the Jews.”
    >

  61. Gideon said on March 2nd, 2009 at 11:34am #

    Who really KILLED Qusay Suleiman in Dheisheh? Death conveniently and falsely “pinned” on IDF?

  62. Barry said on March 2nd, 2009 at 1:22pm #

    Hey Gideon – Read it carefully. Then you will understand that Israeli Occupation Forces invaded Palestine and shot this child at point blank range.

    28 January 2008
    Qusay Suleiman Muhammad al-Afandi, 16, of Dheisheh refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire to his abdomen while walking to his father’s store during an incursion.

    And here’s another one Gideon, just a few days earlier for you to ponder.
    16 January 2008
    Amir Muhammad Hashem Muhammad al-Yazji, 5, of Gaza City, Gaza, killed, along with his older brother and uncle, by an IDF missile which struck their car on al-Nafaq Street in the al-Daraj neighborhood of Gaza City.

    How about a contest? You count rocket deaths of Israelis – all Israelis – and I’ll count Israeli missile killings of Palestinian children. See which totals most. What d’ya say?

  63. Barry said on March 2nd, 2009 at 1:28pm #

    Mebosa – EGYPTIAN CLERIC: “JEWS INFECT FOOD WITH CANCER AND SHIP IT TO MUSLIM COUNTRIES”

    So regarding the illegal Occupation of Palestine by Israel your point would be……..?

  64. Barry said on March 2nd, 2009 at 1:50pm #

    No Mebosa, I am not impressed with Israel. As one Israeli diplomat said (and was punished for), its a little snot of a country. Its a country that has been masquerading as a democracy while having ethnically cleansed its native natural population, while maintaining Jim Crow race laws, and while holding another land and its people in a state of perpetual Apartheid.
    Maybe nobody cares about my views but I’m not going to let you post racist lies here without rebuke.
    So the Jews have been around 4000 years. Who hasn’t been around 4000 years? Homo sapiens is a quarter million years old and we all have been around that long. Four-thousand years ago (really probably less) the Jews called themselves Hebrews and the Palestinians called themselves Canaanites. And the Canaanites were there when the Hebrews arrived (from where? Egypt? Ur? who knows this muddled ‘history’?) and in fact built their First Temple for them (which was also likely the model for the Second Temple).
    It’s not me who is the enemy of the Jews. All the best to them, but they can’t have a free lunch. They can’t have both the rest of Palestine and my tax money without reservation. No obsession against the Jews here. Some of my best friends are commie Jews (commie Jews being the only Jews that seem to get it.) My obsession is with *just peace* and *self-determination.* And your obsession is with…let me guess… being Jewish?

  65. mebosa ritchie said on March 2nd, 2009 at 3:52pm #

    barry–more good news from israel

    Israel Discovers Gas!

    The Houston-based Noble Energy company, drilling for Israel’s Delek fuel company, announced that it has discovered a huge deposit of natural gas under the Mediterranean Sea near Haifa.

    Infrastructures Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer (Labor) said that the find was of “historic proportions,” and that it could change the face of Israel’s economy.

    Eighty-seven billion cubic meters, or nearly 3.1 trillion cubic feet, of high-quality gas are estimated to be in three deposits in the Tamar Drilling site, which is named for Delek owner Yitzchak Teshuva’s granddaughter. Teshuva said that the find marks a “historic milestone and a great holiday for Israel,” and that he has no doubt it will “supply Israel’s energy needs for many decades to come.”

    Stock prices in the Delek company jumped 38% following the announcement, and its daughter company, Delek Drilling, has jumped even higher.

    The gas is located 90 kilometers west of Haifa, between Israel and Cyprus, but the rights to the Cypriot drilling sites are also owned by Teshuvah. The depth of the water above the find is 1.7 kilometers, over a mile, and the gas is located another 4.9 kilometers deep in an area 140 meters wide.

    In light of the positive results from the finds, a $20 million test drill will be carried out over the next three weeks.

  66. Barry said on March 2nd, 2009 at 4:34pm #

    Well, if they have truly found gas ‘near’ Haifa, then maybe they’ll leave Gaza’s Mediterranean gas deposits alone. However, I do think that Cyprus should claim the gas in their waters – after all, they need the income more than Israel or Delek does.

  67. Gideon said on March 2nd, 2009 at 4:40pm #

    Resistance to Hamas? Hamas whacking internal opposition. No Dissidence in Gaza! Amnesty accuses Hamas of eliminating opponents!

    “Parsley Ladies” protests?
    Anybody to raise a Voice on Dissident Voice?

    ‘Islamist group forces in Gaza engaged in campaign of abductions, deliberate and unlawful killings, torture and death threats against those they accuse of collaborating with Israel,’ human rights group says

    Some were SHOT DEAD in hospitals where they were being treated for injuries suffered during the bombing raid, sometimes IN FRONT of distraught RELATIVES, according to the testimony gathered by the human rights group.

    “The perpetrators of these attacks did not conceal their weapons or keep a low profile, but, on the contrary, behaved in a carefree and confident — almost ostentatious — manner,” the report noted.

    Amnesty said there was “no doubt” that the victims were abducted, killed, shot and tortured by Hamas security forces and armed militias, adding that the evidence was “incontrovertible.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090210/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazarightsngoamnesty

  68. Moz said on March 3rd, 2009 at 6:47am #

    At the end of the day, no matter how unpalatable Hamas may be they are not the issue.

    Settlements, land theft, imprisonment without trial all under diplomatic cover of the US. For decades. This is the issue.

    Hamas is a relatively recent phenomena which would not have occured had the descisions not been made by Israel to continually deny the right of the Palestinians. “There is no such thing as a Palestinian!”

    Kick a nest of hornets, by all means, but don’t be surprised when they start stinging the sh*t out of everything…..

  69. Gideon said on March 3rd, 2009 at 12:24pm #

    Is there a need for another Mandate over Gaza? Who would be a natural choice? Hamas has zero international credibility.

  70. Gideon said on March 3rd, 2009 at 12:35pm #

    Soul counting in Arab – Israeli conflict: every attempted and averted terrorist act should be counted as if it actually happened!

    Palestinian homicide bombings and Hamas rocket launches target innocent civilians with a goal to maximize the number of killed.

    90% of these attempts do not succeed because of Israeli heavy security measures.

    We can believe terrorists when they declare what they wanted to achieve.

    When you look at these numbers you can really get the whole picture.

  71. Gideon said on March 3rd, 2009 at 1:47pm #

    Moral Clarity: MINIMIZING collateral damage vs MAXIMIZING civilian casualties. Us vs Them. Choice is clear.

    In today asymmetric war on terror, our military leaders are called to make death and live decisions on a daily basis. When target is identified and there is a window of opportunity to hit it, the loss of innocent life around the target (collateral damage) is carefully reviewed and analyzed with an objective to MINIMIZE collateral damage. At the end a decision is made, weighing the risk to our security and their human life price.

    On the other side, selection of targets and window of opportunity is based on one objective only: MAXIMIZE our civilian casualties!

  72. Barry said on March 3rd, 2009 at 4:23pm #

    Hey Gideon – Weight of numbers. Since 2000 until the present Israel has killed approx. 6300 Palestinians. Over that period less than 600 Israelis have been killed. That’s a 10.6 to 1 ratio. Where are these Palestinians being killed? In their homeland: Palestine. Where are the Israelis being killed? Many are killed in…Palestine. All so Israel can be bigger! How does shooting boys and girls in tummies and faces make Israel bigger? The goal is to kill as many Palestinians as possible so that the rest flee. It worked for the Jews in 48-49 and they expect it will work again. Israeli-Jews are emotionally damaged. Israel may need to be made a ward of the UN. And then Israeli Jews can be sent to re-education camps to purge the hatred out of them.

  73. mebosa ritchie said on March 3rd, 2009 at 4:46pm #

    barry- a question for your great brain

    if israel wanted to kill as many arabs as possible in gaza,as you claim,why didn’t it just carpet bomb and flatten the whole area?

  74. Moz said on March 3rd, 2009 at 5:46pm #

    To be presumptuous and offer an answer of my own ritchie,
    not even Israel could get away with murdering 1.5m in one “war”.

    I mean, can you imagine the BBC/CNN etc. trying to spin that as self defence?

    Peace.

  75. Barry said on March 3rd, 2009 at 6:18pm #

    Mebosa – Answer for your not so well functioning brain. READ what I wrote.

    “The goal is to kill as many Palestinians as possible SO THAT THE REST FLEE”

    That strategy goes all the way back to the pre-state era when the goal was to ‘spirit the penniless poor to the transit countries.’ And it worked in 47-49.

  76. Gideon said on March 3rd, 2009 at 7:14pm #

    2007: 415 Palestinians killed by other Palestinians, 26 children; and 185 by Israelis, 25 children.

    (OCHA) (Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs ) reports prepared with the help of Palestinian organizations Aug 31 2007 report.

  77. Gideon said on March 3rd, 2009 at 7:25pm #

    Israelis: 1,024 killed; 10% terrorist success rate > 10, 240 targeted; Palestinians 4,228 killed; 50% internal = 2, 114 by Israel

    That’s a Ratio of Israeli to Palestinian deaths of 5!
    Of course one should not limit the number of Israelis to die should Israeli security forces were not successful to stop these attacks to just 10, 240.
    Terrorist’s objective is to MAXIMIZE the number of Targeted and Killed. So Terrorists would like their number to be much bigger: 20,000, 50,000, 100,000?

    Any of these numbers will bring the ratio to 10, 25, 50!

    Deaths from the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Sep 2000 – Jul 2007

    Of those killed in the conflict, 4,228 have been Palestinians, 1,024 Israelis, and 63 foreign citizens.

    (OCHA) (Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs ) reports prepared with the help of Palestinian organizations Aug 31 2007 report.

  78. Gideon said on March 3rd, 2009 at 7:43pm #

    The overwhelming majority of Palestinians killed 94% were men. 87% of children killed were boys and 13% girls.

    Why such a high percentage of Men and “boys” (14-17 is considered a child)?
    Is it because these men and some of these “boys” are engaged in “hostilities”?

    “It is considerably more difficult to distinguish precisely who amongst those Palestinians killed were civilians. Since September 2000, of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces, WHOSE STATUS WAS KNOWN, 59% were civilians and 41% were engaged in hostilities at the time of their death.”

    Adjusting the number of Men, WHOSE STATUS WAS KNOWN to be “civilians” by 50%, it shows that
    70% of men killed were engaged in “hostilities”.

    You are welcome to read the full report with graphs.

  79. Suthiano said on March 3rd, 2009 at 8:52pm #

    Full report with graphs?

    Was it published by the Ministry of Peace?

    Is there an equation that you can sub these numbers into, and it tells Israeli decision makers whether actions are just or unjust?

    Has the Israeli Ministry of Peace created stats based equivalent Osiris’ scales?

    If you ask a sophist he just might say yes!

  80. Barry said on March 4th, 2009 at 8:09am #

    Gideon – So if Barry Bonds had hit a homerun in every 2001 plate appearance he’d have had 664 homeruns instead of 73! OK – lets start with that number. Bonds had 664 homeruns – ’cause you know he could have done it if he really wanted to. Man was he amazing, or what? Now in the other league there were 2506 homeruns – but when you consider that so many were hit against weak pitching and in small ballparks it really amounts to about 500 legit homeruns. Holy smackers! Bonds hit more homeruns than the entire American League, a ratio of 664:500. And when you consider that Bonds was only really trying to hit a homerun about half the time, we can say with some assurance that he should be credited with 1328 homeruns that year – at least. And it should be recalled that American League umps practically give the homerun call if you just put the bat on the ball – so really, effectively speaking, there were maybe only 50 legit homeruns in the AL that year. If you do the math you’ll will see that Bonds, for all intents and purposes killed the ball 1328 times in 2001, the AL, 50. Wow what a ratio! – 1328:50. Bond’s was more dangerous than the entire AL – by far!

    That is Gideon style math. Here are the real numbers. Since 2000 until the present, Israel has killed approx. 6300 Palestinians. Over that period about 1075 Israelis (including 335 IDF) have been killed. That’s a 5.8 to 1 ratio. Where are these Palestinians being killed? In their homeland: Palestine (98.9%). Where are the Israelis being killed? Many (44.8%) are killed in…Palestine.

    We should also note that about 1,450 Palestinian children have been killed (virtually all in Palestine). About 85 Israeli children have been killed (some in Palestine because their parents put the political cause of a bigger Israel over the lives of their children). So the children’s death ratio is about 17 to 1!!!!!!! Thus Palestinian children make up about 23% of all Palestinian deaths while Israeli children make up about 8% of all Israeli deaths. It is clear that the IDF invades the West Bank and Gaza with the express purpose of targeting children- the long term strategy being that Palestinians will leave if there is no hope for the future – and killing their children means killing their future.

    Too many deaths on either side one might say. But just remember where the Palestinians are dying, who invades whom, and who illegally occupies whom.

    And by the way, as Palestine has no military forces – all of its death are to civilians. (And one might note that because all but a few Israeli-Jews serve in the military – they are all military.)

    Since Gideon believes – and has stated so – in the right to resist attack – it is safe to say that the Palestinians were not engaging in hostilities, they were resisting the invaders.

  81. Barry said on March 4th, 2009 at 8:55am #

    Addendum: I perused the ages of the children killed by Israeli Occupation Forces from Sept, 2000 until end of 2008 (the several hundred child killings by Israel in its January 2009 invasion are not included here.)
    Israel has taken the lives of 146 children who were 9 years of age or less (down to infancy). So about 15% of the children Israel kills are little children, toddlers, infants or newborns. If I had counted all pre-teens as well (ages 10 – 13) the number would have increased considerably.

    Target practice.

  82. Gideon said on March 4th, 2009 at 9:49am #

    Indiscriminate targeting of Israelis, >90% failed, ONLY because of security measures.

    Terrorist’s intent, will and means are there to KILL as Many Israelis as possible INDISCRIMINATELY!

    Can you imagine what may happen when Terrorists get hold of more powerful, more accurate weapons?

    In such a scenario even less than 10% success may bring massive casualties!

    That’s why to access the Israeli casualties you need to take into consideration the Terrorists failure rate and adjust the casualties number.

    A dream of any Law Enforcement officer is to be able to prevent the crime, rather than just investigate and find the criminal.

    Israeli security forces have demonstrated amazing success of preventing more than 90% of terrorist’s attacks.

    This success masks the real number of casualties should terrorists have succeded in their Indiscriminate Murder plans.

  83. Barry said on March 4th, 2009 at 10:19am #

    Gideon – What if pigs could fly? You’ve resorted to making things up.

    It’s all pretty simple. End the occupation. Go home. You have a country – stay within it. Stop teaching your kids that when they graduate high school they get to leave the country and shoot gentiles.

    Any grief that comes to Israel is its own doing. And now you want to delve into hypothetical grief. Pretty desperate, eh?

  84. Gideon said on March 4th, 2009 at 11:20am #

    Is indiscriminate targeting and killing of Israeli civilians – “Resistance”?
    Israel left Gaza in 2005.

    Since 2005 – Hamas used Gaza as a rocket launch to kill as many Israelis as possible.

  85. Barry said on March 4th, 2009 at 11:55am #

    Let’s face it Gideon – you have no arguments whatsoever why Israel should continue to illegally occupy any of Palestine. Occupation of Gaza is illegal by the very UN documents you reference.

    Israel did not leave Gaza in 2005. You will find no documentation that Israel left Gaza. They merely played chess with the settlers. Israel then intensified the siege of Gaza and ‘thickened’ (the Israeli term for it) their settlements in the West Bank. Gaza is entitled to resist both their own siege and occupation as well as the occupation of the West Bank. Obviously, none of Palestine is free until it is all free.

    I will ask you again – do you want to count Palestinian rocket attacks and related Israeli deaths versus Israeli missile attacks and related Palestinian deaths? Anytime, guy!

  86. mebosa ritchie said on March 4th, 2009 at 3:30pm #

    barry–another”innocent” killed

    IAF kills senior Islamic Jihad commander in Gaza air strike

    Senior Islamic Jihad commander Khaled Shalan was killed on Wednesday night in an IAF missile strike on his car in Gaza.
    Another member of the terror group was critically hurt in the attack on the vehicle that was traveling from Jabalya to Beit Lahiya, in northern Gaza.

    According to the IDF, Shalan was responsible for the recent rocket fire on Ashkelon.

    Hamas officials said the two jumped out of the vehicle when they heard the approaching aircraft, but were hit by the incoming missile.

    Five others were reportedly wounded in the strike.

    Shortly after the attack, the Islamic Jihad vowed that it would retaliate.

    “The [attempted] assassination points to the fact that the Zionist entity is not interested in calm,” the group said in a statement. “Therefore, [Israel should] expect our reaction, and more rockets.”

    “This crime will not pass without a response,” the group warned.

    Since the end of Operation Cast Lead in January, Palestinians have continued to fire rockets and mortar shells into Israeli territory, often provoking a military response. On Tuesday, two waves of air strikes targeted smuggling tunnels along the Gaza-Egypt border, wounding seven people.

  87. Barry said on March 4th, 2009 at 7:10pm #

    Mebosa is crying crocodile tears over the death of Palestinians. He should be so diligently concerned about the repeated Israeli massacres.

    Forget it mebosa. You have no argument. Palestine is the one and only illegally occupied land in the world – that’s the law of the world. And Israel is the last remaining Apartheid state on the planet. This too shall pass. So mutterings about behavior in Occupied Palestine are beyond irrelevant. It’s like a discussion of a fight among two slaves as a counter to an argument about the evils of the institution of slavery.