Comments on: The Torture Ban that Doesn’t Ban Torture http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:07:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: JusticeForAll http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-39290 JusticeForAll Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:55:15 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-39290 Wonders what happened to all the photos of 'actual torture' and the videos that Seymour Hersh reported Rumsfeld had, but did not release. The Army interrogators (torturers) were not named, were not charged, were not punished. The Army Reservists prison guards who followed the orders of the Active Duty Army met court martial and were put in prison for immorality and posing in pictures. Those who caused DEATH by TORTURE still serve. I voted to end the Iraq war, bring the troops home and end the torture. I wanted it to start from day one, as promised. Silly me, believing in Campaign Promises. Foiled again? Wonders what happened to all the photos of ‘actual torture’ and the videos that Seymour Hersh reported Rumsfeld had, but did not release. The Army interrogators (torturers) were not named, were not charged, were not punished. The Army Reservists prison guards who followed the orders of the Active Duty Army met court martial and were put in prison for immorality and posing in pictures. Those who caused DEATH by TORTURE still serve.

I voted to end the Iraq war, bring the troops home and end the torture. I wanted it to start from day one, as promised. Silly me, believing in Campaign Promises.

Foiled again?

]]> By: Brian http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37482 Brian Fri, 30 Jan 2009 03:47:03 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37482 Great report. I am not surprised by Obama's inaction. I didn't vote the man since he's a conservative. Great report.

I am not surprised by Obama’s inaction. I didn’t vote the man since he’s a conservative.

]]> By: Jack http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37412 Jack Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:00:51 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37412 Deadbeat, There's nothing "reactionary" about criticism of the use of race as a shield against critique of Obama's polices. And I reject, pro forma, any claims to "true Marxist," or "true conservative," or "true religion." This race shield smacks of the same race shield used to confuse criticism of Israeli state policy with anti-semitism, of criticism of American state policy with attacks on "Western Civilization," (often used as a code for "white folks in power") et cetera ad nauseam ad infinitum. "No True Scotsman" is a fallacy much abused, in our times. That you're using it, now, reveals the weakness of your position, not my "reactionism." Respectfully, Jack Deadbeat,

There’s nothing “reactionary” about criticism of the use of race as a shield against critique of Obama’s polices. And I reject, pro forma, any claims to “true Marxist,” or “true conservative,” or “true religion.”

This race shield smacks of the same race shield used to confuse criticism of Israeli state policy with anti-semitism, of criticism of American state policy with attacks on “Western Civilization,” (often used as a code for “white folks in power”) et cetera ad nauseam ad infinitum.

“No True Scotsman” is a fallacy much abused, in our times. That you’re using it, now, reveals the weakness of your position, not my “reactionism.”

Respectfully,

Jack

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37393 bozh Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:33:00 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37393 bustelo is saying that some of the people on the Lefy are obamaphobic. later in the article he speaks of ultraleft's idiocy. i am on the Left, and i'm not obamaphobic but USAphobic. i don't konw whether joaquin wld categorize me as an ultraleftist. and why ad hominem attacks. wld a leftist further rend the left by labeling? i do not think so. bustelo had a chance to show or prove which of nairn's facts may not be acceptable as facts by juxtapoising own or othe peoples' facts or just let history decide that. i too conclude that US never changes. it will torture people in endless number of ways. thnx bustelo is saying that some of the people on the Lefy are obamaphobic.
later in the article he speaks of ultraleft’s idiocy.

i am on the Left, and i’m not obamaphobic but USAphobic. i don’t konw whether joaquin wld categorize me as an ultraleftist. and why ad hominem attacks.

wld a leftist further rend the left by labeling? i do not think so. bustelo had a chance to show or prove which of nairn’s facts may not be acceptable as facts by juxtapoising own or othe peoples’ facts or just let history decide that.

i too conclude that US never changes. it will torture people in endless number of ways. thnx

]]> By: Deadbeat http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37391 Deadbeat Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:47:41 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37391 Jack your response is reactionary because no one is suggesting that Obama be immune from criticism. What Bustelo is pointing out is there is a tendency on the Left to OVER state and INFLATE its critique of Obama without analyzing its POLITICAL consequences. In fact without such nuance the position being taken by Narin effectively will create an environment of suspicion and fracturing rather than one of solidarity. Such fracturing effectively benefits the interests you profess to challenge. True Marxist analysis is understanding and apparently Bustelo is offering some words of caution for writers such as Narin who may be so hellbent on criticizing Obama without analysis or justification due to his own biases. There is enough room to criticize Obama on solid facts and evidence. The Left must present real facts and evidence to make its case against Obama. Jack your response is reactionary because no one is suggesting that Obama be immune from criticism. What Bustelo is pointing out is there is a tendency on the Left to OVER state and INFLATE its critique of Obama without analyzing its POLITICAL consequences. In fact without such nuance the position being taken by Narin effectively will create an environment of suspicion and fracturing rather than one of solidarity. Such fracturing effectively benefits the interests you profess to challenge.

True Marxist analysis is understanding and apparently Bustelo is offering some words of caution for writers such as Narin who may be so hellbent on criticizing Obama without analysis or justification due to his own biases.

There is enough room to criticize Obama on solid facts and evidence. The Left must present real facts and evidence to make its case against Obama.

]]> By: Jack http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37389 Jack Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:31:25 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37389 Deadbeat, Using the black community, and Obama's incidental skin tone, to immunize him from criticism only serves the interests of those in New York, London and elsewhere who benefit from Obama's navigation of the Ship o' Capital. Respectfully, Jack Deadbeat,

Using the black community, and Obama’s incidental skin tone, to immunize him from criticism only serves the interests of those in New York, London and elsewhere who benefit from Obama’s navigation of the Ship o’ Capital.

Respectfully,

Jack

]]> By: giorgio http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37387 giorgio Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:15:18 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37387 Uri Avneri, 86+ yrs old Israeli peace activist, has an article in Counterpunch.org on Obama titled "As the US Leans Left, Israel Lurches Right" which should be read. He sees Obama in a very positive light. Here some quotes: Of all the beautiful phrases in Barack Obama’s inauguration speech, these are the words that stuck in my mind: “You are on the wrong side of history.” He was talking about the tyrannical regimes of the world. But we, too, should ponder these words. In the last few days I have heard a lot of declarations from Ehud Barak, Tzipi Livni, Binyamin Netanyahu and Ehud Olmert. And every time, these eight words came back to haunt me: “You are on the wrong side of history!” Obama was speaking as a man of the 21st century. Our leaders speak the language of the 19th century. They resemble the dinosaurs which once terrorized their neighborhood and were quite unaware of the fact that their time had already passed. THEN FURTHER DOWN THE ARTICLE: BETWEEN Israel and the United States a gap has opened this week, a narrow gap, almost invisible – but it may widen into an abyss. The first signs are small. In his inaugural speech, Obama proclaimed that “We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus – and nonbelievers.” Since when? Since when do the Muslims precede the Jews? What has happened to the “Judeo-Christian Heritage”? (A completely false term to start with, since Judaism is much closer to Islam than to Christianity. For example: neither Judaism nor Islam supports the separation of religion and state.) The very next morning, Obama phoned a number of Middle East leaders. He decided to make a quite unique gesture: placing the first call to Mahmoud Abbas, and only the next to Olmert. The Israeli media could not stomach that. Haaretz, for example, consciously falsified the record by writing - not once but twice in the same issue - that Obama had called “Olmert, Abbas, Mubarak and King Abdallah” (in that order). *** These are not good tidings for the Israeli leaders. For the last 42 years, they have pursued a policy of expansion, occupation and settlements in close cooperation with Washington. They have relied on unlimited American support, from the massive supply of money and arms to the use of the veto in the Security Council. This support was essential to their policy. This support may now be reaching its limits. It will happen, of course, gradually. The pro-Israel lobby in Washington will continue to put the fear of God into Congress. A huge ship like the United States can change course only very slowly, in a gentle curve. But the turn-around started already on the first day of the Obama administration. INTERESTING READ, ISN' T IT??? Uri Avneri, 86+ yrs old Israeli peace activist, has an article in Counterpunch.org on Obama titled “As the US Leans Left, Israel Lurches Right” which should be read. He sees Obama in a very positive light. Here some quotes:

Of all the beautiful phrases in Barack Obama’s inauguration speech, these are the words that stuck in my mind: “You are on the wrong side of history.”

He was talking about the tyrannical regimes of the world. But we, too, should ponder these words.

In the last few days I have heard a lot of declarations from Ehud Barak, Tzipi Livni, Binyamin Netanyahu and Ehud Olmert. And every time, these eight words came back to haunt me: “You are on the wrong side of history!”

Obama was speaking as a man of the 21st century. Our leaders speak the language of the 19th century. They resemble the dinosaurs which once terrorized their neighborhood and were quite unaware of the fact that their time had already passed.

THEN FURTHER DOWN THE ARTICLE:

BETWEEN Israel and the United States a gap has opened this week, a narrow gap, almost invisible – but it may widen into an abyss.

The first signs are small. In his inaugural speech, Obama proclaimed that “We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus – and nonbelievers.” Since when? Since when do the Muslims precede the Jews? What has happened to the “Judeo-Christian Heritage”? (A completely false term to start with, since Judaism is much closer to Islam than to Christianity. For example: neither Judaism nor Islam supports the separation of religion and state.)

The very next morning, Obama phoned a number of Middle East leaders. He decided to make a quite unique gesture: placing the first call to Mahmoud Abbas, and only the next to Olmert. The Israeli media could not stomach that. Haaretz, for example, consciously falsified the record by writing – not once but twice in the same issue – that Obama had called “Olmert, Abbas, Mubarak and King Abdallah” (in that order).

***

These are not good tidings for the Israeli leaders. For the last 42 years, they have pursued a policy of expansion, occupation and settlements in close cooperation with Washington. They have relied on unlimited American support, from the massive supply of money and arms to the use of the veto in the Security Council. This support was essential to their policy. This support may now be reaching its limits.

It will happen, of course, gradually. The pro-Israel lobby in Washington will continue to put the fear of God into Congress. A huge ship like the United States can change course only very slowly, in a gentle curve. But the turn-around started already on the first day of the Obama administration.

INTERESTING READ, ISN’ T IT???

]]> By: giorgio http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37383 giorgio Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:19:01 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37383 It's nice to read another point of view. May be the writer, Bustelo above, has a few good points...so let's see how Obama's presidency pans out...but I still think Obama is just window dressing...Ok, the Blacks got a morale boost ! ...and that's about all they will get...the sparkles in Obama's eyes are all Stars of David... The historian Israel Shahak has some interesting remarks about racist Zionists in the days of Martin Luther King which may also explain the present Zionist support for Obama: "Nevertheless, Martin L King's campaigns were supported by many rabbis, not to mention other Jewish figures, some of whom must have been aware of the anti-black racist attitude which forms part of their Jewish heritage. Surely one is driven to the hypothesis that quite a few of Martin L King's rabbinical supporters were either anti-black racists who supported him for tactical reasons of "Jewish interest" (wishing to win Black support for American Jewry and for Israel's policies) OR were accomplished hypocrites, to the point of schizophrenia, capable of passing very rapidly from a hidden enjoyment of rabid racism to a proclaimed attachment to an anti-racist struggle - and back - and back again." Just this on its own speaks volumes!!! I'm all to join Ann Coulter, the rabid neocon, who now seems to have seen the Light! and is now sponsoring Ron Paul for 2012 Presidency. This is really the guy who should be today sitting in that oval office. Not Obama! It’s nice to read another point of view. May be the writer, Bustelo above, has a few good points…so let’s see how Obama’s presidency pans out…but I still think Obama is just window dressing…Ok, the Blacks got a morale boost ! …and that’s about all they will get…the sparkles in Obama’s eyes are all Stars of David…

The historian Israel Shahak has some interesting remarks about racist Zionists in the days of Martin Luther King which may also explain the present Zionist support for Obama:

“Nevertheless, Martin L King’s campaigns were supported by many rabbis, not to mention other Jewish figures, some of whom must have been aware of the anti-black racist attitude which forms part of their Jewish heritage.

Surely one is driven to the hypothesis that quite a few of Martin L King’s rabbinical supporters were either anti-black racists who supported him for tactical reasons of “Jewish interest” (wishing to win Black support for American Jewry and for Israel’s policies) OR were accomplished hypocrites, to the point of schizophrenia, capable of passing very rapidly from a hidden enjoyment of rabid racism to a proclaimed attachment to an anti-racist struggle – and back – and back again.”
Just this on its own speaks volumes!!!

I’m all to join Ann Coulter, the rabid neocon, who now seems to have seen the Light! and is now sponsoring Ron Paul for 2012 Presidency. This is really the guy who should be today sitting in that oval office.
Not Obama!

]]> By: Deadbeat http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37377 Deadbeat Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:15:04 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37377 Joaquin Bustelo of Marxmail wrote a very interesting critique of Alan Narin's article. He concludes the following... <i> Then we have the response of the Obamaphobic leftists. It's day two or three of his administration. Obama picks up the pen and orders torture banned and the Gitmo concentration camp and torture center closed. And what's the reaction? From Louis, a forwarded article from counterpunch, "The Torture Ban That Doesn't Ban Torture." SOME of the facts in the article may be all right, but the POLITICS are completely wrong, and most of all, the political tone and stance that Obama's ban on torture is a meaningless and empty gesture. "When President Obama declared flatly this week that 'the United States will not torture' many people wrongly believed that he'd shut the practice down, when in fact he'd merely repositioned it. "Obama's Executive Order bans some -- not all -- US officials from torturing but it does not ban any of them, himself included, from sponsoring torture overseas. "Indeed, his policy change affects only a slight percentage of US-culpable tortures and could be completely consistent with an increase in US-backed torture worldwide." The reality is that Obama's executive order does not "reposition" U.S. torture, at least in no explicit way. It has nothing in there about handing over the waterboarding or shock cables to non-employees of the U.S. government. If there were, an experienced journalist like the author would have quoted it. This is, in reality, what the author *believes* will happen. But the presentation as factual reporting of the CONCLUSION the author wants readers to draw shows this is a venting of leftist frustration at what the author views as Obama's hoodwinking of working people, RATHER THAN an attempt to convince anyone. The issue of whether the United States should be allowed to openly and shamelessly carry out torture is not an insignificant one. Saying that banning torture by U.S. personnel is meaningless is like saying that banning the death penalty is meaningless -- capitalism is a murderous system, and will continue to murder using everything from malnutrition to killer cops, and so on. This is such a classic example of ultraleft idiocy that I am embarrassed to say Louis referred this article to the list. But just as significant as the ultraleft error involved in the abstract are certain social realities. And this is the very heart of the matter, which I wrote about earlier in the post, which is the tone and stance you take above all towards the Black community and what it sees as its victory and its president. The stance implicit in the article is that Obama's arrival at the presidency is in no sense an advance for the Black cause. That's a non-starter. It's like writing on the morning after the slaves are freed that this is meaningless because Blacks will still be oppressed and exploited. Black folks in the United States just celebrated getting one of their own, for the first time, as president. By the time this blog article was posted, he'd been in office just under than one hundred hours. A fairly well respected leftist journalist, Allan Nairn, writes it for his blog, from whence it goes to counterpunch, and from there to BOTH Marxmail and the Democratic Underground, as well as many other internet spaces. You've got a bunch of people on the left, viewed as mostly white --both liberals and radicals-- dumping on Obama on the feeblest possible foundation --that in his order addressing the well-known, hot-button issue of U.S. personnel using torture, he does not address something the huge majority of Americans don't even realize is going on-- U.S. complicity with and even sponsorship of torture by the security forces of other countries. This subject could and should have been addressed when Obama signed his order, but not by a denunciatory blast asserting (with no evidence) that Obama merely "repositioned" U.S. torture but one educating people about the history of "indirect" U.S. torture, explaining things like the school of the Americas and calling on Obama to make clear that this is ALSO banned now, or explaining he should extend the order to cover that also. </i> Joaquin Bustelo of Marxmail wrote a very interesting critique of Alan Narin’s article. He concludes the following…


Then we have the response of the Obamaphobic leftists. It’s day two or three
of his administration. Obama picks up the pen and orders torture banned and
the Gitmo concentration camp and torture center closed. And what’s the
reaction?

From Louis, a forwarded article from counterpunch, “The Torture Ban That
Doesn’t Ban Torture.”

SOME of the facts in the article may be all right, but the POLITICS are
completely wrong, and most of all, the political tone and stance that
Obama’s ban on torture is a meaningless and empty gesture.

“When President Obama declared flatly this week that ‘the United States will
not torture’ many people wrongly believed that he’d shut the practice down,
when in fact he’d merely repositioned it.

“Obama’s Executive Order bans some — not all — US officials from torturing
but it does not ban any of them, himself included, from sponsoring torture
overseas.

“Indeed, his policy change affects only a slight percentage of US-culpable
tortures and could be completely consistent with an increase in US-backed
torture worldwide.”

The reality is that Obama’s executive order does not “reposition” U.S.
torture, at least in no explicit way. It has nothing in there about handing
over the waterboarding or shock cables to non-employees of the U.S.
government. If there were, an experienced journalist like the author would
have quoted it. This is, in reality, what the author *believes* will happen.
But the presentation as factual reporting of the CONCLUSION the author wants readers to draw shows this is a venting of leftist frustration at what the
author views as Obama’s hoodwinking of working people, RATHER THAN an
attempt to convince anyone.

The issue of whether the United States should be allowed to openly and
shamelessly carry out torture is not an insignificant one. Saying that
banning torture by U.S. personnel is meaningless is like saying that banning
the death penalty is meaningless — capitalism is a murderous system, and
will continue to murder using everything from malnutrition to killer cops,
and so on. This is such a classic example of ultraleft idiocy that I am
embarrassed to say Louis referred this article to the list.

But just as significant as the ultraleft error involved in the abstract are
certain social realities. And this is the very heart of the matter, which I
wrote about earlier in the post, which is the tone and stance you take above
all towards the Black community and what it sees as its victory and its
president. The stance implicit in the article is that Obama’s arrival at the
presidency is in no sense an advance for the Black cause. That’s a
non-starter. It’s like writing on the morning after the slaves are freed
that this is meaningless because Blacks will still be oppressed and
exploited.

Black folks in the United States just celebrated getting one of their own,
for the first time, as president. By the time this blog article was posted,
he’d been in office just under than one hundred hours. A fairly well
respected leftist journalist, Allan Nairn, writes it for his blog, from
whence it goes to counterpunch, and from there to BOTH Marxmail and the
Democratic Underground, as well as many other internet spaces.

You’ve got a bunch of people on the left, viewed as mostly white –both
liberals and radicals– dumping on Obama on the feeblest possible foundation
–that in his order addressing the well-known, hot-button issue of U.S.
personnel using torture, he does not address something the huge majority of
Americans don’t even realize is going on– U.S. complicity with and even
sponsorship of torture by the security forces of other countries.

This subject could and should have been addressed when Obama signed his
order, but not by a denunciatory blast asserting (with no evidence) that
Obama merely “repositioned” U.S. torture but one educating people about the history of “indirect” U.S. torture, explaining things like the school of the
Americas and calling on Obama to make clear that this is ALSO banned now, or explaining he should extend the order to cover that also.

]]> By: DavidG. http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37361 DavidG. Wed, 28 Jan 2009 00:16:50 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37361 Look, the world loves a hero! Obama is a hero! Isn't he? Truth is, he's just a typical American. When the settlers came to the Americas, they brought muzzle-loaders with them and Bibles. They told the Indians about a loving God then they shot them all and took their land. People like this don't mind a bit of torture. And Obama's a lawyer. Boy can those good 'ol boys extract a lot of different meanings for the word 'torture'. He could subject you to torture that would make your hair turn white and tell you he was helping you to upgrade your appearance, make you look more distinguished! Yeah, imperial nations love torture. And they love killing and genocide too! Look, the world loves a hero! Obama is a hero! Isn’t he?

Truth is, he’s just a typical American. When the settlers came to the Americas, they brought muzzle-loaders with them and Bibles. They told the Indians about a loving God then they shot them all and took their land.

People like this don’t mind a bit of torture. And Obama’s a lawyer. Boy can those good ‘ol boys extract a lot of different meanings for the word ‘torture’. He could subject you to torture that would make your hair turn white and tell you he was helping you to upgrade your appearance, make you look more distinguished!

Yeah, imperial nations love torture. And they love killing and genocide too!

]]> By: DavidG. http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37360 DavidG. Wed, 28 Jan 2009 00:16:02 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37360 Look, the world loves a hero! Obama is a hero! Isn't he? Truth is, he's just a typical American. When the settlers came to the Americas, they brought muzzle-loaders with them and Bibles. They told the Indians about a loving God then they shot them all and took their land. People like this don't mind a bit of torture. And Obama's a lawyer. Boy can those good 'ol boys extract a lot of different meanings for the word 'torture'. He could subject you to torture that would make your hair turn white and tell you he was helping you to upgrade your appearance, make you look more distinguished! Yeah, imperial nations love torture. And they love killing and genocide too! www.dangerouscreation.com Look, the world loves a hero! Obama is a hero! Isn’t he?

Truth is, he’s just a typical American. When the settlers came to the Americas, they brought muzzle-loaders with them and Bibles. They told the Indians about a loving God then they shot them all and took their land.

People like this don’t mind a bit of torture. And Obama’s a lawyer. Boy can those good ‘ol boys extract a lot of different meanings for the word ‘torture’. He could subject you to torture that would make your hair turn white and tell you he was helping you to upgrade your appearance, make you look more distinguished!

Yeah, imperial nations love torture. And they love killing and genocide too!

http://www.dangerouscreation.com

]]> By: giorgio http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37343 giorgio Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:49:36 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37343 Thanks Rahb, "Our civilization can only survive in a climate of freedom of thought and respect for fundamental human rights. All religions, ideologies and political systems should not deny an opposition the right to exist. The totalitarian Zionism of today is the only ideology that systematically wants to make the very existence of an opposition a criminal offence! Before we can coexist, we must first be able to exist. That right is denied those who are opposed to the Jewish domination. This fanaticism and obscurantism is a serious threat against our civilization and against world peace. Each one of us should do something concrete to defend freedom!" - quoted from Professor Israel Shahak, author of "Jewish History, Jewish Religion, The Weight of 3000 years" Thanks Rahb,

“Our civilization can only survive in a climate of freedom of thought and respect for fundamental human rights. All religions, ideologies and political systems should not deny an opposition the right to exist.

The totalitarian Zionism of today is the only ideology that systematically wants to make the very existence of an opposition a criminal offence!

Before we can coexist, we must first be able to exist. That right is denied those who are opposed to the Jewish domination. This fanaticism and obscurantism is a serious threat against our civilization and against world peace.

Each one of us should do something concrete to defend freedom!”

- quoted from Professor Israel Shahak, author of “Jewish History, Jewish Religion, The Weight of 3000 years”

]]> By: Rahb http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37339 Rahb Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:24:24 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37339 Giorgio: Thanx for the reference to the article. Consider too the ringworm "treatments"/ experiments of Israel on mostly non Ashkenazi Jewish children. Interesting too that Ashkenazim represented as little as 3% of Judaism at one point and now represent over 80% (over 90% in US). Sickening that people can delight in death and suffering (even of children that they have said they will protect). Is it any wonder that torture continues? Giorgio: Thanx for the reference to the article. Consider too the ringworm “treatments”/ experiments of Israel on mostly non Ashkenazi Jewish children. Interesting too that Ashkenazim represented as little as 3% of Judaism at one point and now represent over 80% (over 90% in US). Sickening that people can delight in death and suffering (even of children that they have said they will protect). Is it any wonder that torture continues?

]]> By: giorgio http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37334 giorgio Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:52:37 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37334 "Israeli soccer matches were suspended during the assault on Gaza. When the games resumed last week, the fans had come up with a new chant: "Why have the schools in Gaza been shut down?" sang the crowd. "Because all the children were gunned down!" came the answer. Aside from its sheer barbarism, this chant reflects the widespread belief among Israeli Jews that Israel scored an impressive victory in Gaza – a victory measured, not least, by the death toll." These are the opening lines of an article in Counterpunch.org, titled "Fueling the Cycle of Hate" by Yigal Bronner and Neve Gordon. LONG LIVE BARBARITY !!! “Israeli soccer matches were suspended during the assault on Gaza. When the games resumed last week, the fans had come up with a new chant: “Why have the schools in Gaza been shut down?” sang the crowd. “Because all the children were gunned down!” came the answer.

Aside from its sheer barbarism, this chant reflects the widespread belief among Israeli Jews that Israel scored an impressive victory in Gaza – a victory measured, not least, by the death toll.”

These are the opening lines of an article in Counterpunch.org, titled
“Fueling the Cycle of Hate” by Yigal Bronner and Neve Gordon.

LONG LIVE BARBARITY !!!

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37332 bozh Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:07:36 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37332 rahb, i have heard about the experiments but while writing the post i forgot about it. and, of course, suspects are often tortured.thnx for remind me. rahb, i have heard about the experiments but while writing the post i forgot about it. and, of course, suspects are often tortured.thnx for remind me.

]]> By: Rahb http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37330 Rahb Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:20:42 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37330 Bozh: "...if US ever conquers the planet and settles it..." They haven't yet? So far though, when the US has tortured its own or allied people it's been called "experiments" (i.e. MK-Ultra, radiation experiments, serin tests...) 2005 there was a proposal and beginnings of building military labour camps in the US too (haven't found out how far that progressed under American noses, but it's something to be aware of). I wonder, had the CIA not trained Egypt and told them to use it on Sayyid Qutb and his lot, could some of the moderates that came after him have helped him to realize that he too was affected by a loss of faith and the jahaliyya which he was so upset by. Bozh: “…if US ever conquers the planet and settles it…” They haven’t yet? So far though, when the US has tortured its own or allied people it’s been called “experiments” (i.e. MK-Ultra, radiation experiments, serin tests…) 2005 there was a proposal and beginnings of building military labour camps in the US too (haven’t found out how far that progressed under American noses, but it’s something to be aware of).
I wonder, had the CIA not trained Egypt and told them to use it on Sayyid Qutb and his lot, could some of the moderates that came after him have helped him to realize that he too was affected by a loss of faith and the jahaliyya which he was so upset by.

]]> By: giorgio http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37329 giorgio Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:20:08 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37329 WELCOME to CHANGE à la OBAMA. so that everything will remain the same! WELCOME to CHANGE à la OBAMA.
so that everything will remain the same!

]]> By: Ann Garrison http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37324 Ann Garrison Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:04:37 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37324 Rwanda is a U.S. puppet regime in Central Africa, and its U.S. military-trained president and army, are proxy warriors and torturers serving U.S./Anglophone military, military industrial, and corporate interest in neighboring D.R. Congo. Rwanda is a U.S. puppet regime in Central Africa, and its U.S. military-trained president and army, are proxy warriors and torturers serving U.S./Anglophone military, military industrial, and corporate interest in neighboring D.R. Congo.

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/the-torture-ban-that-doesnt-ban-torture/#comment-37321 bozh Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:51:42 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6447#comment-37321 if US ever conquers the planet and settles it; thus obtains a peace it wanted for the last three centuries, it may then start torturing americans as well. and finally via torture of dissenters obtain peace/obedience in US also. and the world wld finally live on planet USA. if that is not US final solution, then what's it all about? if US ever conquers the planet and settles it; thus obtains a peace it wanted for the last three centuries, it may then start torturing americans as well.
and finally via torture of dissenters obtain peace/obedience in US also.
and the world wld finally live on planet USA.
if that is not US final solution, then what’s it all about?

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