So, you got your little arrogant namby-pamby liberal white ass intellectually *WHOOPED* FOR ALL TO SEE!! — by Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA, said on January 5th, 2009 at 6:31pm.

And then you come back with typical *CRUUUDE*, *PPA-THE-TIC* (even closet) Zionist (apologist) anti-Semite-baiting (Michael Dawson *PPA-THE-TICALLY* said on January 8th, 2009 at 12:34pm: “…Anderson…raving about Jews…”) — and *you’ve* got the nerve to call Petras “a scoundrel”?

(1) You *AIN’T* my ally, ya little Chomskyite closet Zionist apologist. So, that would put you too on the let’s-get-busy end of my “we shall overcome”.

(2) Who *gives* a damn about what *you* have to say in your little namby-pamby liberal abstract parlor debates. It’s not like any *Palestinians* give a damn what *you* have to say (as a Palestinian professor friend of mine once said, “Do you ever hear *me* praising Chomsky?”) — or even any *anti-Zionist Jews* (including the two anti-Zionist *Israeli* Jews, now living in San Francisco, with whom I’ve recently made friends and who’ve been going to the protest demos/marches against Israel there: they’d ALL have little use for you too).

(3) I’ll give you *ANOTHA* INTELLECTUAL ASS-WHOOPIN’ *AGAIN* too, anytime, if I feel like it. (I’ll treat you just like I do Max and Peasant: if I respond to you at all, it’ll be just to intellectually kick your ass for *LAUGHS*.)

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Nevertheless, the imposition of UN 242 would be a huge breakthrough at the present time. Would the Palestinian people vote in favor of it, if it were guaranteed and came with reparations and reconstruction and security from more Israeli incursions? My sense is that they, including Hamas, would make this trade-off, if it were on the table.

Meanwhile, reversion to pre-1967 goals, while understandable, seems certain to end in mutual destruction.

As to you Joseph Anderson, feel free to keep going around raving about Jews, shitting on your allies, and refusing to think past the end of your own nose. I’m not a white liberal, for starters. And you are the one who dismissed non-violence out-of-hand. I never said it was viable in all conditions.

Are you an actual FBI agent, or are you just doing their work for free?

As I said (at least elsewhere) before…,

Actual (typically white-American) leftists (like Richard Becker, if he really said that about American Jews) in the U.S. often don’t understand (actually they don’t really have any true idea by farrr) how the Israel lobby (and its mechanisms) works in the U.S. political and mainstream media system, because actual leftists have almost never been in political office (especially in higher office) or actually shared official political power (especially in higher office) in government in the United States. So, never having any *practical* experience in American politics, American leftists often don’t have a *practical* understanding of how the American political and media system works. Such leftists often rely, instead, on their politically naive, facile, abstract, or one-note kneejerk theories alone — often, they claim, of what “Marxist theory” *supposedly* “says”.

(Black leftists are typically not so naive and abstract, because they must have a *practical* perception of how this country works in order for them to even literally survive.)

And, usually about, supposedly, what “Marx” said: apparently Marx said “the Israel lobby is not possible”: it’s like freezing all scientific knowledge about the world based on what *Newton* said. Even Britain’s Tariq Ali believes, on this basis [and I don't know whether he is pro-Zionist or not], that the power of the Israel lobby is, supposedly according to “Marx”, “not possible”. When I merely publicly *mentioned* my analytical commentary, “The Left and the Israel Lobby”, to a panel that Tariq Ali was on in a San Francsico bookstore, the first knee-jerk thing he said was, “Let’s be careful not to be anti-Semitic!” — without even hearing me out and intellectually evaluating my comments!: that’s anti-intellectual.

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(I’ve had enough laughs for the time being.)

“seize all the oil reserves it can”!! …: THE U.S. CAN BARELY _”SEIZE”_ IRAQ AND *AFGHANISTAN*! — A *THIRD* WORLD COUNTRY AND A *’FIFTH’* WORLD COUNTRY.

Juhasz was *really* silent, when I mentioned this after she said the same thing (actually she said that the U.S. wanted to go after and seize *all* the world’s oil reserves ) — or as Zbigniev Brzezinski once said, “An idea devoid of reality is *fantasy*!

Angry Peasant, quoting fm the Christison article: “All of these factors—the dual loyalties of an extensive network of policymakers allied with Israel, the influence of a fanatical wing of Christian fundamentalists, and oil—probably factor in more or less equally to the administration’s calculations on the war with Iraq.”

I guess you flunked out of math in the 3rd grade. If, according to the C.’s, they all factored *EQUALLY*, then that — by definition — means that OIL was not only *NOT* THE(E) REASON: it wasn’t even THE(E) *MAJOR* REASON.

(Anymore than “oil” was the reason for U.S. constantly-threatened — well, at least until lately — war against Iran, which has even *MORE* proven oil reserves than Iraq!)

———————————————————————————————————-
ONCE, AGAIN:

*NEVER* IN *THE ENTIRE HISTORY* OF THE UNITED STATES HAS THE U.S. EVER MILITARILY INVADED & OCCUPIED A MIDDLE EASTERN OIL COUNTRY FOR THE DIRECT/PRIMARY PURPOSE OF GAINING /SEIZING ACCESS TO OIL.

THAT’S NOT HOW U.S. OIL COMPANIES *WORK* IN THE MIDEAST — AND THAT’S NOT HOW THEY PREFER IT DONE.
———————————————————————————————————-

(I could indeed explain, with one *should-be-obvious* — well, *duh-uhh*… — sentence, “the oil factor”, regarding Iraq, but then that would take away my *fun* in toying with you and Max — and letting you two *wind yourself up*!)

SO, THERE! We’re *NOT* “ALL” right.

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**ANNNNNNGHT!!!** [buzzer sound] …:

YOU *DIDN’T* AND _OBVIOUSLY_ **CAN”T** ANSWER THE DIRECT *QUESTION*, MAX.

That, as they say in court, is materially NONRESPONSIVE TO THE QUESTION.

(All you’re responding with is what professors call engaging in *filler*.)

And, as I said before, ASSERTIONS WITHOUT PROOF OR DIRECT COMPELLING EVIDENCE IS MERELY [YOUR] _*OPINION*_ — and in your case, also _*SPECULATION*_.

SO, ONCE AGAIN, YOU’RE **OUTTA BUSINESS** WITH ME.

I’M DONE (for the time being anyway) USING YOU TO *AMUUUSE* MYSELF — AGAIN.

(You don’t think I actually take you seriously, do you, Max? As I told Deadbeat, I just enjoyed showing that you, indeed, *COULDN’T* _factually_ answer the question.)

IF YOU’RE SO _SIMPLE-MINDED_ THAT YOU THINK THAT ONLY ONE THING EXPLAINS *EVVVERYTHING* IN HUMAN MOTIVATIONS — EVEN IN JUST THE ISSUES OF MODERN AMERICAN WARS —

THEN ALL I SAY ABOUT YOU MAX IS (my paraphrasing Ice Cube), LET A FFOOL BE A *FFOOOLLL* …!

(It’s not *my* job to educationally raise you…)

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So, if you can find a political/social web site out there that caters to 100% like-minded folks who already have all the answers, go with our blessing and join your fellow philosophical adepts.

Personally, a veil was lifted for me when you referred to the atrocity happening in Gaza as “Izzy’s criminal assault on Gaza.” Seriously. All that suffering; children being bombed, and you give the monstrosity a cute nickname? All righty, then.

I’m gratified however that some of the more idiotic Trolls have apparently lost interest & moved on to post their boring zionistical balderdash elsewhere. It’s interesting to speculate on what motivates a “MeBozo Retchy”. My guess is he/she has been assigned by one ZPC department or another to the task of disrupting dialogue between parties seeking to understand the role of Zionism in globalized power politics, with the hope that such parties will be distracted from study and investigation into attempting to engage these ZPC operatives in rational discussion, thus wasting large quantities of our precious time.

But that’s only a guess, I’m not a mindreader. In any case the result is the same: mucho wasted time.
Unless of course there are a bunch of “student stage” bystanders trying to make sense of it all. If I knew for sure that words posted as comments on this thread were being read by a lot of fresh minds not totally locked into preconceptions, I’d be encouraged to participate more in these online raps. But when confronted with pages of softheaded soft-Zionthink, “Big Oil Did It” blah blah I get discouraged. I find myself wondering how many intelligent f resh minds are still scrolling down to read all the nonsense.

I find myself wondering if something like a Moderated Listserve, or maybe a DV Annex, something like a Dedicated Link to a Moderated Online Space, dedicated to rational discussion of certain topics between parties who share certain conclusions about what The Problem is…

Before I forget, let me note that I appreciate “Swan”s comment in particular. Thanks also to DB1K & Joe A for the focus on Antonia Juhacz.

Right now the ANSWER Coalition seems to be the leading force I see organizing protests vs Izzy’s criminal assault on Gaza. Alas the same people are promoting lecture appearances by Ms Juhacz. Richard Becker when asked his opinion of Walt/Mearsheimer and of Petras’ view responded that “US Jews just don’t have that kind of power”.

So it seems to me that to counter this well-funded, skillfully crafted, multilevel Disinformation Apparatus there is a need for an organized collective effort of some kind. The voices of those who Have A Clue need to be multiplied and amplified. There should be an upsurge of interest in these questions, but with all the misinformation out there, new people coming to the issue need to be offered something other than the usual canned propaganda.

Petras is probably the best single writer commenting on the current conjuncture; Blankfort & the Christison’s are likewise to be recommended. Lenni Brenner’s books helped me a lot, as did the late Israel Shahak, Rabbi Elmer Berger’s AJAZ Bulletins.

Okay, before I start to ramble,

I’m AOT

“…These two strains of Jewish and Christian fundamentalism have dovetailed into an agenda for a vast imperial project to restructure the Middle East, all further reinforced by the happy coincidence of great oil reserves up for grabs and a president and vice president heavily invested in oil. All of these factors—the dual loyalties of an extensive network of policymakers allied with Israel, the influence of a fanatical wing of Christian fundamentalists, and oil—probably factor in more or less equally to the administration’s calculations on the Palestinian/Israeli situation and on the war with Iraq.”

THERE! We’re ALL right!!

At any rate, we agree that both things are huge problems.

I would differ on the ideology vs slavery. Slavery was an economic tool. Intelligent energy (slaves) were used in the same way horses and later tractors have been used. But intelligent energy (slaves) have certain advantages over animals because they can do many things without the yanking of a rein; they can see and respond with intelligence. Remember, the use of intelligent energy/slaves has been around since antiquity and rarely have anything to do with “race”. In some cases, farmers who ended up in debt (or serfs) became slaves.

This is not unique to US history; but much of Europe had been moving away from the use of slaves when the US colonists were still in the slave trade for agricultural work.

Energy is the very basis of human economics. The kind of energy and its ability to magnify human life is what we’ve seen as humans moved from one source to another. Oil built the current Western world with its metropolis, it’s huge industry and skyscrapers and endless stream of mostly worthless material goods. Look at a city, any city and there is nothing before the eye that was not created by oil, that could not otherwised be without that specific energy source. Other sources cannot fully duplicate what oil has been able to do.

It is our dilemma and the sooner we understand it the sooner we can act accordingly. A sustainable world is one where the underlying economics behaves in a measured way against the inescapable limits of life-giving nature.

one can deduce from known facts that the main idea was for the rich to rule in perpetuity. to obtain it, ideas arose such as that the ruling class must control totally ‘education’, media, religion (it being totally free to lie, hate,etc) and right to ownership of even labor.

imo, ruling class in US has obtained an iron grip on power; it’ll never let it go.
not without struggle or even terror if need for that arises. to do all that one has to have a plan, ideas; in short, an ism.
and pen is at times mightier than sword.
in short, US had built the best fascist structure.
industry does run on oil. but no land complained in ‘02 that it wasn’t getting enough.
so why wage war for oil at all if that was the case. pumping and selling oil is a business; thus, it only pertains to who makes more money out of it.
maybe, it’s US which is profiting from iraqi oil more than any other land; thus, one can say US invaded iraq also for oil.
after all somebody has to pay for that war? so, people who drive are paying for it.
at one time barrel of oil was selling $146. somebody made lotsof money and some people lost money. thnx

Your bri,nging up strawmen with Klein and Benis. I’ve already said Benis is the worst thing that’s ever happened to progressives and the so-called American anti-war movement. And Klein is even worse.

Again, the issue is not these faux progressives/liberals/whatevers, the point is history and US history in particular. We can all connect dots with regard to the ME and have it all lead to Israel, but much of that is pure speculation with regard to why we’re in Iraq.

Even Deadbeat has come around to acknowledging some role for oil. Civilizations run on oil NOT isms. All the isms in the world won’t give you electricity or allow you to build homes, etc. etc.

Isms have one purpose to create fear for the purposes of domination. Racism is not something that just happens because one person is born of a particular color vs another; or minority vs majority. Racism is a tool of empire. It is used to divide and rule. Zionists use racism regarding Palestinians for the same purposes. It isn’t that Zionism is racism, it’s that Zionists USE racism to pursue domination. The purpose to dominate is to control vital resources (like oil).

So, all the hocus-pocus really as a pathological, deadly rationale.

The Angry Peasant: “This Joseph Anderson guy seems a bit nuts. Uninformed, too. Watch a few documentaries, dude. So many _*EX-CIA OFFICIALS*_ … _former government employees_ … have all said it was about controlling the oil. Yes. … Even your average American idiot — [THAT'D BE *YOU*, oh Angry Peasant] — at least highly suspects it. … Now, if our seminar on U.S. Foreign Policy 101 is over, go back to your office in Airhead, California. And Max, better think about a restraining order. This guy’s a bit frightening (or drunk, I suspect)…”

Here ya go, oh “Angry Peasant”:

Israel, American Jews, and the War on Iraq
- by BILL and KATHLEEN CHRISTISON
FORMER _*CIA*_ POLITICAL ANALYSTS

“Most of the vociferously pro-Israeli neo-conservative policymakers in the Bush administration make no effort to hide the fact that at least part of their intention in promoting war against Iraq (and later perhaps against Syria, Iran, Hezbollah, and the Palestinians) is to guarantee Israel’s security by eliminating its greatest military threats, forging a regional balance of power overwhelmingly in Israel’s favor, and in general creating a more friendly atmosphere for Israel in the Middle East. Yet, despite the neo-cons’ own openness, a great many of those on the left who oppose going to war with Iraq and oppose the neo-conservative doctrines of the Bush administration nonetheless utterly reject any suggestion that Israel is pushing the United States into war, or is cooperating with the U.S., or even hopes to benefit by such a war. Anyone who has the temerity to suggest any Israeli instigation of, or even involvement in, Bush administration war planning is inevitably labeled somewhere along the way as an anti-Semite. Just whisper the word “domination” anywhere in the vicinity of the word “Israel,” as in “U.S.-Israeli domination of the Middle East” or “the U.S. drive to assure global domination and guarantee security for Israel,” and some leftist who otherwise opposes going to war against Iraq will trot out charges of promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the old czarist forgery that asserted a Jewish plan for world domination.”

[read more here: http://www.counterpunch.org/christison01252003.html -- and that's just *one* of their numerous articles about Israel, the Israel lobby, the Iraq war, and constantly threatened war with Iran]

“Kathleen Christison worked for 16 years as a political analyst with the CIA, dealing first with Vietnam and then with the Middle East for her last seven years with the Agency before resigning in 1979. Since leaving the CIA, she has been a free-lance writer, dealing primarily with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Her book, “Perceptions of Palestine: Their Influence on U.S. Middle East Policy,” was published by the University of California Press [A HIGHLY REPUTABLE PUBLISHER OF SCHOLASTIC AND ACADEMIC BOOKS] and reissued in paperback with an update in October 2001. A second book, “The Wound of Dispossession: Telling the Palestinian Story,” was published in March 2002.

Bill Christison joined the CIA in 1950, and served on the analysis side of the Agency for 28 years. From the early 1970s he served as National Intelligence Officer (principal adviser to the Director of Central Intelligence on certain areas) for, at various times, Southeast Asia, South Asia and Africa. Before he retired in 1979 he was Director of the CIA’s Office of Regional and Political Analysis, a 250-person unit.”

__________________________________________________________

Then there’s:

“The People Who Pushed the War”
- by Kathleen and Bill Christison
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/download/peoplewhopushedwar.pdf

[I don't think they're talking about "Big Oil".]

__________________________________________________________

Then there’s Scott Ritter — *he’s* a former govt official: Chief United Nations Weapons Inspector in Iraq from 1991 to 1998, and former Marine Corps intelligence officer and lead analyst:

I already told you what Ritter said, that the Israel lobby had *a great deal* to do with the war in Iraq and threatened war with Iran.

“In his book Ritter claims that *ISREAL* is pushing the Bush administration into war with Iran. He also accuses the U.S. pro-Israel lobby of dual loyalty and outright espionage. Commissioned as an intelligence officer in the United States Marine Corps, he served in this capacity for twelve years. He initially served as the lead analyst for the Marine Corps”

__________________________________________________________

Then there’s a whole bunch of *Jewish* writers who admit that the war in Iraq and threatened war in Iran was greatly for Israel. Here’s just a few:

A War for Israel
- by Jeffrey Blankfort
http://www.leftcurve.org/LC28WebPages/WarForIsrael.html

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Phyllis Bennis, of the Inst. for Policy Studies, http://www.ips-dc.org, in Washington, D.C., said that, “The *only* people pushing for war against Iran is the Israel lobby.” — and she’s one of those closet ‘left’ Zionists that I intellectually and morally ‘hate’ so much.

—————————————————————————————-

Israel Shamir, an *Israeli* Jewish historian, scholar and writer said that the war in Iraq was primarily for Israel.

—————————————————————————————-

Joe Klein, journalist, commentator/columnist, author, and currently a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, was already quoted in an above post.

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HA-HA-HA-HA-HA…!!

SO YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON AMERICAN *TV*, HUH? — LET ALONE WHAT *POLITICIANS* AND *ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS* OPENLY *SAY* ON AMERICAN TV!

*THAT’S* YOUR “DIRECT/COMPELLING EVIDENCE”???

TALK ABOUT A **NNNUTCASE** AND **”AAAIRHEAD”**…!!

(WELL, AS DANNY SCHECTER THE PROGRESSIVE AMERICAN TV MEDIA ANALYST SAID, “THE *MORE* YOU WATCH, THE *LESS* YOU KNOW!” — SO ANY INTELLIGENT PERSON CAN ASSESS WHAT *YOU* ACTUALLY KNOW, oh Angry Peasant.)

I COULD GIVE YOU THE HISTORICAL COUP DE GRACE ABOUT *OIL* BEING THE ACTUAL REASON, as opposed to an after-the-fact assumed “benefit”, FOR THE INVASION OF IRAQ — or you could read it in Jeffrey Blankfort’s, “A War for Israel”, in the political journal “Left Curve”, available online — but I don’t want to let just another _GRADESCHOOL DEBATE CLUB IDIOT_ sssuck up my time, like Max Shield too: I’ve got a *life*.

WHAT YOU BABBLE ON ABOUT, oh “Angry Peasant”, IS *NOT* DIRECT OR LOGICALLY COMPELLING EVIDENCE.

YOU KNOW WHAT?: BELIEVE WHAT YOU *WANNA* BELIEVE — I DON’T CARE!

BUT *NEVER* IN *THE ENTIRE HISTORY* OF THE UNITED STATES HAS THE U.S. EVER MILITARILY INVADED AND OCCUPIED A MIDDLE EASTERN OIL COUNTRY FOR THE DIRECT/PRIMARY PURPOSE OF GAINING ACCESS TO OIL:

THAT’S *NOT* HOW THE AMERICAN OIL COMPANIES HAVE *EVER* WORKED BEFORE IN *ALL* OF U.S. HISTORY THERE — AND THAT’S NOT HOW THEY *WANT/PREFER* IT DONE.

——————————————————————————————–

WHEN YOU’VE *GOT* ANY *REAL* EVIDENCE, oh Angry Peasant, YOU CAN ANSWER MY QUESTION TOO:

What *PROOF* or *_DIRECT_ COMPELLING EVIDENCE* — OTHER THAN *POLITICIANS* AND GOVT OFFICIALS ON AMERICAN *TV* (HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!…) — do you have that “Big Oil” (as Juhasz indiscriminately and monolithically put it) *CALLED FOR*, *OR WAS BEHIND*, the war on Iraq and the threatened war on Iran?

——————————————————————————————–

BUT, OTHERWISE, I SAY ABOUT YOU, oh Angry Peasant, AS ICE CUBE WOULD SAY, _”LET A FFOOL BE A FFOOOLLL!…”_

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“Some people need to keep their hands off the caps-lock button.”

Like Thomas Jefferson said when he signed the Declaration of Independence,’ I just want to make sure that *some/certain* people can *READ* my writing’ [and to make it *OBVIOUS* when they try to *EVADE* my counter-question] — since they obviously failed to *READ* it before.

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Now, if our seminar on U.S. Foreign Policy 101 is over, go back to your office in Airhead, California. And Max, better think about a restraining order. This guy’s a bit frightening (or drunk, I suspect) and he hates your guts.