somebody talk to me!

Alexanser

Lorraine–I hear you about the post-modern stuff, I too hate it….there is simply nothing “post” about our all too modern circumstances.

Another good website is: electronicintifada.net

and I would advise EVERYONE to watch this recent interview with Professor Norman Finkelstein. It is truly wonderful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIr4lEIqTkM&feature=related

And some of my old lecturers would chide me for not using “post-modern” rather than ‘modern’. However, I loathe post-modernism!!!

Often one knows bits and pieces of the tragedy of the Palestinians but finds it hard to present it all so that others may understand.

Others on this forum may find a bit of levity in the fact that when I was much younger I defended the Jewish people from bigotry and prejudice with the same fervour I now defend the people of Gaza and the west bank. Well, there is a time when we must all part with illusions. That the suffering of the Jewish people could be converted into Zionism, which has led to the murdering and dispossession of others, is a fine ‘cosmic joke’.

Unfortunately, there are too many ‘jokes’ in this modern world!!

Thank you for your patient history lesson to the young Gideon (the latter is purely a benefit of the doubt).

Religion as you intimate is not the basis for the existence of villages/towns/city-states/nations.

That Gideon confuses his case for Zionism with that of a religion in the Middle East is telling; in fact is down right tragic.

Today in the UK there is a big stink about the BBC’s refusal to give airtime to an appeal for humanitarian air for Gaza by the Disaster Emergency Committee which is an umbrella group for 13 charities. As I mentioned before on this site there will be a large rally today outside the BBC HQ in London, originally planned to protest their partisan reporting of the Israeli action. This latest heartlessness will add focus.

Yesterday’s Guardian reported the BBC’s reasoning and other broadcasters are now following suit.

‘The BBC, which has been criticised in the past over alleged bias in its coverage of the Middle East, said it did not want to risk public confidence in its impartiality. A BBC spokesperson said: “The decision was made because of question marks about the delivery of aid in a volatile situation and also to avoid any risk of compromising public confidence in the BBC’s impartiality in the context of [a] news story.”

The DEC’s chief executive, Brendan Gormley, said: “We are totally apolitical … this appeal is a response to humanitarian principles. The BBC seems to be confusing impartiality with equal airtime.”

DEC appeals have recently raised £10m for the Congo and £18m for Burma.

An ITV spokesman said the broadcasters, after assessing the DEC’s needs, had been unable “to reach a consensus necessary for an appeal”.

Sky said: “By convention, if all broadcasters do not carry the appeal, then none do. The decision was effectively made for us.” ‘

The blood of these people runs colder than a reptile’s.

Israel’s only duty is to get out of the way. End the occupation and siege of Gaza and the West Bank – and take is troops and settlers home.

the first tsunami is either in toto omitted or denied; while always dwelling on palest’n ripples to which they have a right to anyway.
we do need to refute their ‘facts’ and not because such people want a fair dialog but because of new readers. thnx

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, Two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
[Not so. Israel was not a nation in any modern sense. It was more like a hilltop chieftainship such as one finds in New Guinea today. That this chieftainship predates Islam is of no consequence. Palestinians are Muslim, Christian, and secular - and their ancestors were living on that land thousands of years before Jews arrived or emerged out of that very same Palestinian population.]

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
[No, people identifying themselves as Palestinian dates to the very latest to the turn of the LAST century, that is, 19th to 20th. There were NO Israelis then - an invention out of whole cloth that had to await until 1948. In fact, there was a political entity known as Palestine several decades BEFORE there was an Israel. And of course, even Jews called the region Palestine - as did every one else.]

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
[Since you mention the Jewish conquest, then we are in agreement that there were non-Jewish inhabitants before the arrival of Jews. Jews gained dominion over varying sizes of land - and the chieftainship at is maximum lasted but 100 years - hardly the stuff of legend. So there were Palestinians and their ancestors in the region before the Hebrews arrived, after most Jews left, and when the Zionists arrived in boats from Europe at the turn of the 20th century. A continuous majority presence for more than 10 thousand years.]

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.
[But you do admit there was Arab dominion. And Zionist dominion has lasted not much longer, at 61 years. Yet the question is not of dominion, but of inhabitation - and in that, Palestinians have always been there.]

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
[Thousands of years before Jerusalem was the Jewish 'capital' it was founded by non-Jewish Canaanites, likely Jebusites. When Jordan conquered the West Bank, its capital was in Jordan - where it remains. It is not relevant to the conflict whether Jordan made Jerusalem the capital or not.]

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
[Jerusalem is indeed mentioned in the Koran, but not often. The Koran is largely a philosopy and morays book. One would not expect to find info on auto repair in a gardening manual either. Further, Palestinians and their ancestors have maintained a continuous presence in Jerusalem since they founded it thousands of years ago.]

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
[Uh, dead wrong. King David only lived in Jerusalem, a city many thousands of years old when David was allegedly born. Mohammad did indeed come to Jerusalem. The Dome of the Rock marks his presence there.]

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
[Muslims do not pray with their backs to Jerusalem. The number of Muslims who live between Jerusalem and Mecca is but a fraction of total numbers of Muslims. In fact, since few Jews bother to face Jerusalem, and Muslim numbers are many, far more Muslims face Jerusalem when praying than do Jews.]

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
[Way dead wrong. There is no evidence that Arab leaders encouraged Palestinians to leave. Quite the contrary - the official position was that Palestinians stay put - and they would be rescued from the Zionists. On the other hand, the terror leaders of the Zionist Yishuv threatened total havoc if Palestinians stayed. They backed this up via massacres carried out in many hundreds of villages and towns across Palestine. The rest (68%?? Ha, surely you jest with such a precise figure) fled in what was called by Zionist Chaim Weizmann: "the miraculous cleansing of the land" - the first recorded admission of ethnic cleansing.]

10 The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
[Palestinians had nothing to do with Jewish migration from other Arab countries. After having stolen Palestine and violently evicted its inhabitants, relations between Jew and Arab deteriorated elsewhere. Israel used that to its advantage, bombing synagogues in Baghdad so it would be blamed on Arabs, and carrying out the infamous Lavon Affair in Egypt. So the partners in this episode are the Arab states and Israel - not the Palestinians.]

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.
[The only connection between the some 700-800 thousand Palestinians who fled, and the Jews who migrated to Israel is that the Jews were given the houses, property and land that had belonged to the Palestinians. Then these newly arrived Jews were given guns to shoot Palestinians trying to return to their villages. All this while the Zionist founders lived in cities well removed from those they evicted.]

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab la nds to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people’s lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey .
[Palestinians have never wanted to be integrated into the countries they were violently removed to by the Zionists. Nonetheless, where they have felt most comfortable culturally and politically, they have prospered. Palestinians are full-fledged citizens in Jordan. But most Palestinians strongly desire to return to their homes and property that is for now in Israel. In fact, the Palestinians still have the keys and deeds to their homes.]

13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
[There are 22 Arab states - there is no state for Palestinians, though that would have been the logical outcome of WW1. The Palestinian state is in what is now called Israel. That is their homeland. Contrary to what Zionists think - Palestinians are not miscellaneous Arabs. Israel started ALL wars but one - the 1973 war which was an Egyptian/Syrian attack - not on Israel - but on land illegally occupied by Israel in Egypt and Syria. All other wars were blatant attacks by Israel on its neighbors.]

14. The PLO’s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.
[PLO long ago changed its charter in all 3 languages. Israel now deals with PLO on a regular basis - in fact, the PLO acts as Israel junior enforcer. HOWEVER, Israel still submits itself to all as 'The Jewish State' - which means that the native population legally has second-class citizenship. As far as land goes, Israel has given the Palestinians nothing - not one acre. Truth is, Israel only takes land and even as you read this, Israel is expropriating land for Jews-only outside of its country. The occupation of the rest of Palestine - that is, the West Bank and Gaza, is illegal. Israel's duty is to take its troops and settlers and go home.]

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
[While I cannot speak of conditions under Jordanian rule - it is safe to say that both Christians and Muslim Palestinian sacred sites are routinely and repeatedly desecrated by Israel. Beginning with the Zionist war of '48' - '49, Israel destroyed mosques and holy sites, then buried them under rubble. Israel builds parking lots on old religious sites, changes mosques into discos, bombs mosques when it makes war on Palestinians, and even recently built a museum of 'tolerance' (??) over what had been a Muslim grave.]

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
[The UN legitimately passed these regulations against Israel because with US cooperation, Israel has been able to function as a rogue state. Israel's pariah status is 110% earned. Israelis should be thankful for the UN. There would be no Israel if it were not for the UN - and the UN has graciously (cowardly?) looked the other way at Israeli transgressions against civil society.]

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
[See 16 above. And its about time that Israel obeyed the well-considered judgment of the world. Stop killing, stop occupying, go home.]

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
[Don't complain - Jordan is Israel's little buddy. Jordan is paid a good deal of hush money by the US to be silent on Israeli transgressions. Maybe Jordan should ask the US to pay reparations to Israel on these alleged synagogues.]

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
[Don't forget that Israel was admitted to the UN under the express consideration that Israel take back the refugees it violently evicted in '47 - '49. UN has let Israel off the hook on that.]

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
[Jews have historically been allowed or disallowed to visit the Wall - depending on the flow of political circumstances. After '48, Israel managed to muck up relations with the Arab/Muslim world so badly that it is no surprise, that Israelis (replete with sabateurs) were not granted visitation rights into Jordan.]

Speaking of Apartheid, just remember, there is but one nation in the world that practices Apartheid rule – and that is Israel. There is but one nation in the world that illegally occupies another – and that is Israel. And there is just now one nation that can commit mass murder and get away with it – and that is Israel.

regarding your assertion that gazans don’t want to cultivate land that israelis ‘settelrs’ illegally occupied, wld you use anything an occupier or israel used? no, you wld utterly destroy it; it standing for one’s reminder of pain and anguish.

jennifer, in my experience, people love to work and especially if they’re not bossed or own own fields, shops, etc. have you ever seen children who were invited to harvest grapes, berries? wldn’t you have noticed how elated they were to go to work; provided they weren’t mentally harmed or injured?

i wonder, are your rabbis telling you all this? are you a child, perhaps?

to have no desire to live better one must be brain-injured or another specie. so which is it? are pals a subhuman specie?
in all my life i have never come across even one person who did not want to live better than one did.

even so, you are dwelling on peripheral issues and in your own scientific way. so, whether some of what you say is true, pales in comparison with israel’s many crimes against humanities. thnx

If blockades are so inconsequential, why did the US do it to Iraq and Why did Israel do it to Gaza? it’s not for keeping hand grenades out. Then incredibly you have the audacity to then blame the starving on Hamas (a reality because of Israeli backing). That elephant is starting to soil your broken couch and the neighbors are complaining of the smell, but you still refuse to notice him watching CNN with you.

Incidentally, might I recommend to you out there to get a copy of “the Fields of Athenry” sung by “The Three Irish Tenors”.

1,365 truckloads of humanitarian aid that have been delivered through Israeli crossings into Gaza since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, including basic food commodities, medication, medical supplies, blood units and donations by various governments and blood units. [3]

440,000 gallons (1.7 liters) of fuel conveyed through Israel’s Nahal Oz fuel terminal and Kerem Shalom goods crossing. [4]

38 Palestinians evacuated to Israel for medical treatment (including two children). [5]

980,000 leaflets disseminated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to Gaza civilians instructing them to stay away from terrorists and weapons storage sites [6]

30,000+ telephone calls made to Gaza residents warning them of impending air-strikes. [7]

33,580 tons of aid transported into Gaza at the request of international organizations, the Palestinian Authority and various governments since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead. The World Food Program informed Israel more than two weeks ago that it would cease shipment of food to Gaza because warehouses were at full capacity. [8] [9]

We should be telling Gazans to get to work. If they can’t we should be pointing a finger at the government – HAMAS – and putting pressure on them to provide better infrastructure for their people.

Or, maybe I misunderstood your comment.

Max,
First of all, thank you for being courteous.

Sources:
Food donated by Qatar sold by Hamas From Palestine Press.
Translation:
Local sources: Hamas is selling flour donated by the people of Qatar for the sector for the amount of NIS 140 per bag.
Gaza, Palestine Press — Local sources in the Gaza Strip said that Hamas is selling flour and humanitarian aid to citizens that was donated by the State of Qatar and which the Egyptian authorities allowed to enter the sector.
The sources added that bags of flour sold by Hamas and made by Qatar as aid to the Palestinian people is valued at the amount of 140 to 150 NIS per bag, pointing out that the transaction is for the benefit of Hamas is evil and that [the Hamas movement is working against the public interest] .
It is noteworthy that the State of Qatar has donated large quantities of food and medical supplies to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to help them in the face of ongoing Israeli aggression against the Gaza Strip.

This was originally posted on Gates of Vienna, which you may think is fanatical, but I checked the translation with Google translator and a couple other online translators, and it is correct. There were two other articles out a week or so ago, but I cannot find them now – both were from foreign sources, not U.S. or Israel.

What I mean by educating yourself is to take all things into consideration. You are partly right about HAMAS. Middle East Web
explains the acronym for HAMAS and displays the Charter. Please read it and see what you think.

Yes, Israel allowed HAMAS to “take over” and the Gazans, not Palestinians, voted them in. (Most of the Palestinians do not live in Gaza) Maybe Israel hoped for a change and gave Gaza a second chance. Do you know what the PLO was doing? Suicide bombers with open borders…. HAMAS did the same thing so Israel closed the borders.

Watch Al Jezeera. They have childrens’ shows in Gaza devoted to teaching children to die for Jihad. One of the latest episodes had the main character, an adult in a rabbit suit, die from an Israeli bomb – was taken to the hospital and died of wounds. Children shake their fists and pledge to “kill the Jews”. You can watch it all on Al Jezeera or MEMRI.
Just look into both sides because there doesn’t seem to be much middle ground in this conflict. You can make up your own mind.

Some things that forced me to consider the Israeli perspective:

*why didn’t HAMAS stop shelling Israel during the (one of many) cease fire?

*why doesn’t HAMAS build their hospitals underground, like Israel has done, if they are afraid of attack?

*why hasn’t HAMAS built bomb shelters for it’s people if they are afraid of attack?

*why has HAMAS been constantly shelling Israel if they don’t want retaliation? Are they serious? What are they trying to accomplish? You’d think they’d save their money and resources for something bigger and better to take out an Israeli military target, but they consistently fire upon civilians. Sderot?

*demographics: Israel agreed to less land and a Two State solution, HAMAS refused. Why?

*Why is Egypt firing upon Gazan refugees who are fleeing Gaza if they are supportive of Gazans? (one of many sources)

*why don’t the Gazans vote HAMAS out of power if they are in opposition to what they stand for? Surely they have the world’s attention, they could request that HAMAS be removed.

*why hasn’t the world expressed outrage over the use of human shields which anyone can see on YouTube?

*why isn’t there such focus on the African countries which are literally being squashed by Islamic terror? Almost half the continent is not 90-100% Muslim….it isn’t by choice.

As for HAMAS telling Jimmy Carter that Israel has a right to exist, that is nonsense. It is written in their charter that Israel can exist only until Islam rightfully destroys it and reinstates Muslim land to Allah. Have you heard the term “useful idiot”? Russia used this phrase to describe people who were naive enough to not suspect their intentions. Jimmy Carter fits that profile in the case of HAMAS. The Islamic hadiths also say that deception is OK in times of war. I don’t trust HAMAS. If their goal is to live in peace they have not behaved in a way which supports that goal. And Israel takes its wounded and treats them in underground hospital…

Per your request
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories#Demographics_of_the_Gaza_Strip

Middle East demographics (source: Wikipedia)
Gaza Jordan Egypt Syria Lebanon Israel
Pop 1.5 6.2 75 19.6 4.1 7.3
Age 0-14 44% 32% 32% 37% 26% 26%
Age 15-64 53% 62% 63% 59% 66% 64%
Age 65 - 3% 4% 5% 3% 7% 10%
Pop growth 3.40% 2.40% 1.75% 2.30% 1.26% 1.80%
Birth Rate 3.95% 2.01% 2.29% 2.83% 1.89% 2.08
Inf Mortality 2.24% 1.56% 3.13% 2.95% 2.45% 0.689%
Mortality 0.38% 0.27% 0.52% 0.49% 0.62% 0.62%
Life Expectancy 72 78.7 71.3 70.3 72.6 80
Fertility 5.19 2.63 2.83 2.73 1.92 2.9
Literacy 92% 91% 71% 80% 87% 97%
Pop Density 10,665 166 192 267 948 839
GDP / Capita $600 $4,906 $5,495 $4,491 $11,279 $27,146

Thank you Thank you Thank you, Its about time some one stated the truth, Not everyone on this planet hasa rght to life.

My understanding of Hamas, and this is not from pro-Hamas advocates, is that they were initially financed into power by Israel to undermine the PLO. It backfired on Israel. That’s the short story.

Hamas consists of a political and military (militia) organizational structure. That is typical of any forming state-like entity and so we saw it with the IRA and Sinn Fein and Hezbollah. I’ve detected no significant deviation from this rather simple model. Additionally, with both Hezbollah and Hamas there is a strong social aspect which supports daily life such as medical and food services.

Again, this is not something gleaned (though certainly supported) by pro-Hamas advocates but by general jounalist presentations.

Jimmy Carter met with Hamas leadership who said they would recognize Isreal. Hamas is a legitimately elected government of the Palestinian people.

Beyond that I really don’t know what you mean by “keep an open mind” when a people have been imprisoned into a narrow strip of land created the most dense mass of people on the planet, with little of the necessities coming in and movement restricted (air, water, land) by people who have continued to push them out, colonize and secure water sources and other vitals away from the indigenous (Palestinian) people. There are over 9,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons; a sizable number have not be brought to trial after years. There has been regular air-raids into Gaza and demolition of homes and confiscation of land by the Israeli government.

What kind of reasonableness are you expecting from Hamas or the Palestininan people in general?

Sources, please.