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	<title>Comments on: Negation of the Negation</title>
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		<title>By: jon hampden</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-38460</link>
		<dc:creator>jon hampden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-38460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[this is anti communist anti marxist reactionary petit bourgeois propaganda. long live marxism leninism]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is anti communist anti marxist reactionary petit bourgeois propaganda. long live marxism leninism</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rosa Lichtenstein</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37499</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosa Lichtenstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37499</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jack above links to my site, but I would not want comrades to think that what he has posted represents my views.

While I agree with much that he says, my opinion is that while there are several reasons why Marxist parties the world over have split continually for well over a hundred years, dialectical materialism isn&#039;t one of them. What I do claim is that this mystical theory has made a bad situation worse.

I explain why here:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2009_02.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack above links to my site, but I would not want comrades to think that what he has posted represents my views.</p>
<p>While I agree with much that he says, my opinion is that while there are several reasons why Marxist parties the world over have split continually for well over a hundred years, dialectical materialism isn&#8217;t one of them. What I do claim is that this mystical theory has made a bad situation worse.</p>
<p>I explain why here:</p>
<p><a href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2009_02.htm" rel="nofollow">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/page%2009_02.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: bozh</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37320</link>
		<dc:creator>bozh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i suggest that  &quot; socialism&quot;  means a given societal structure but antipodal to a fascist/plutocratic/american structure of society.
the word  &quot;capiatalism&quot;  refers to manufacturing/producing/selling.
thus, whatever the structure, we&#039;d still work, invent tools, produce, sell. thnx]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i suggest that  &#8221; socialism&#8221;  means a given societal structure but antipodal to a fascist/plutocratic/american structure of society.<br />
the word  &#8220;capiatalism&#8221;  refers to manufacturing/producing/selling.<br />
thus, whatever the structure, we&#8217;d still work, invent tools, produce, sell. thnx</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Andres Kargar</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37298</link>
		<dc:creator>Andres Kargar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37298</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just to clarify a few points raised in this article:

1) A &#039;worker state&#039; is not an economic system (as would be  capitalism or socialism). It might refer to the transition period from one to another (e.g. capitalism to socialism), but it does not entail a stable and dominant mode of production.

2) History moves in zigzags and not a straight line. European history has many examples of temporary retreats back to feudalism.

3) Compared to the time it took feudalism to transition to capitalism and even the period capitalism has been around, the efforts of the Marxist-Leninists in building a socialist state is like the blink of an eye. Lenin himself did not believe that socialism could be established in a single country and was counting on the working class in other Western countries to rise up. When these revolutions did not materialize, Lenin realized that the revolutionary situation occurs more in the weakest links of the capitalist system (thus Nepal).

4) Social upheaval and revolution takes different forms in different countries, mainly depending on the level of development of the productive forces (and not the genius of the revolutionary leadership). A socialist revolution in France, obviously does not look anything like the one in Nepal or Afghanistan, but those in Nepal or Afghanistan, in the absence of concrete proletarian forces and the presence of peasants will have their limitations (even though conditions are riper in those countries for social upheaval than in France).

5) There are a lot of attacks on Marxist-Leninists for their mistakes or failed attempts at constructing socialism. Few, however, look with the same eye to the disastrous state of Western European social democrats who, in the name of labor, keep selling out the working classes to their bourgeoisie. Does Gordon Brown (and the British Labor Party) in any way represent labor? And the German social democrats? Are European citizens able to avoid the disasters of capitalist crises because of their social democracy? Apparently not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to clarify a few points raised in this article:</p>
<p>1) A &#8216;worker state&#8217; is not an economic system (as would be  capitalism or socialism). It might refer to the transition period from one to another (e.g. capitalism to socialism), but it does not entail a stable and dominant mode of production.</p>
<p>2) History moves in zigzags and not a straight line. European history has many examples of temporary retreats back to feudalism.</p>
<p>3) Compared to the time it took feudalism to transition to capitalism and even the period capitalism has been around, the efforts of the Marxist-Leninists in building a socialist state is like the blink of an eye. Lenin himself did not believe that socialism could be established in a single country and was counting on the working class in other Western countries to rise up. When these revolutions did not materialize, Lenin realized that the revolutionary situation occurs more in the weakest links of the capitalist system (thus Nepal).</p>
<p>4) Social upheaval and revolution takes different forms in different countries, mainly depending on the level of development of the productive forces (and not the genius of the revolutionary leadership). A socialist revolution in France, obviously does not look anything like the one in Nepal or Afghanistan, but those in Nepal or Afghanistan, in the absence of concrete proletarian forces and the presence of peasants will have their limitations (even though conditions are riper in those countries for social upheaval than in France).</p>
<p>5) There are a lot of attacks on Marxist-Leninists for their mistakes or failed attempts at constructing socialism. Few, however, look with the same eye to the disastrous state of Western European social democrats who, in the name of labor, keep selling out the working classes to their bourgeoisie. Does Gordon Brown (and the British Labor Party) in any way represent labor? And the German social democrats? Are European citizens able to avoid the disasters of capitalist crises because of their social democracy? Apparently not.</p>
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		<title>By: bozh</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37235</link>
		<dc:creator>bozh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37235</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[the best explanation i can come up with, wld be to suggest that 50,000 0r 100,000 years ago we were living  in an egalitarian clan or a larger group of people.
and i suggest that because of our interdependency we have survived to this day.
no one was a dependency nor independency. survival of a group may have dependent on a few dark or black tenager girls.
we the  whites are here today because our ancestors have adapted  to their hot environment by acquiring black skin.
blacks and darkies don&#039;t survive, we don&#039;t survive. and if some blacks hadn&#039;t ventured out, we wldn&#039;t have darkies today; and we wldn&#039;t have whites unless some darkies spread out to cooler regions. 
however, a great evil befell us at some point of time; probably 10-20 td yrs ago: supremacism.
and ever since we have been enslaved/enserfed/despised/abused. thnx]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the best explanation i can come up with, wld be to suggest that 50,000 0r 100,000 years ago we were living  in an egalitarian clan or a larger group of people.<br />
and i suggest that because of our interdependency we have survived to this day.<br />
no one was a dependency nor independency. survival of a group may have dependent on a few dark or black tenager girls.<br />
we the  whites are here today because our ancestors have adapted  to their hot environment by acquiring black skin.<br />
blacks and darkies don&#8217;t survive, we don&#8217;t survive. and if some blacks hadn&#8217;t ventured out, we wldn&#8217;t have darkies today; and we wldn&#8217;t have whites unless some darkies spread out to cooler regions.<br />
however, a great evil befell us at some point of time; probably 10-20 td yrs ago: supremacism.<br />
and ever since we have been enslaved/enserfed/despised/abused. thnx</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Andrew F</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37230</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37230</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Roshan, 

The chosen title aptly epitomises this article - white is black if we choose to associate whiteness with the colour black and so on. That&#039;s an absurdity to all us familiar of properties such as &#039;whiteness&#039; and of what is black, but to someone ignorant of both this would sound as a logically valid sentence. My point is that Marxist economics offers the scientific tools (observations, principles, concepts etc) to understand the dynamics at play in our societies - it&#039;s not a dead dogma that may only relate to the set of circumstances that begot it. 

How else are we to understand the value the worker produces for his/her employer, and how else are we to understand the question of property? 

The economic neoliberal paradigm capitalises on notions of  personal fulfillment whereby (Starbucks) latte-sipping, i-pod-grasping, GAP-attired, aspirationist individuals pursue their happiness in whichever way they please so long as they cause no real harm to others [please forgive the caricature]. In reality, however, it conveniently glosses over the iniquities that arise in every field of its endeavours - be it the curtailing of the provision of welfare measures, liberalisation of internal markets, rules against subsidies (forcing hitherto agriculturally self-sufficient states to import wheat from the US for instance) and so on. If for you Marxism is no longer relevant, could you kindly please elucidate as to which, therefore, is the more valid and cogent narrative through which we are to understand the world around us, that&#039;s to say, what&#039;s the alternative narrative that offers answers to the questions: what is social injustice  and what forms does it take; why does it matter; is it morally neutral, positive, or negative; what are the remedies against its forms and so on? 

Or are the above questions irrelevant or simply the wrong ones to the answers available?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roshan, </p>
<p>The chosen title aptly epitomises this article &#8211; white is black if we choose to associate whiteness with the colour black and so on. That&#8217;s an absurdity to all us familiar of properties such as &#8216;whiteness&#8217; and of what is black, but to someone ignorant of both this would sound as a logically valid sentence. My point is that Marxist economics offers the scientific tools (observations, principles, concepts etc) to understand the dynamics at play in our societies &#8211; it&#8217;s not a dead dogma that may only relate to the set of circumstances that begot it. </p>
<p>How else are we to understand the value the worker produces for his/her employer, and how else are we to understand the question of property? </p>
<p>The economic neoliberal paradigm capitalises on notions of  personal fulfillment whereby (Starbucks) latte-sipping, i-pod-grasping, GAP-attired, aspirationist individuals pursue their happiness in whichever way they please so long as they cause no real harm to others [please forgive the caricature]. In reality, however, it conveniently glosses over the iniquities that arise in every field of its endeavours &#8211; be it the curtailing of the provision of welfare measures, liberalisation of internal markets, rules against subsidies (forcing hitherto agriculturally self-sufficient states to import wheat from the US for instance) and so on. If for you Marxism is no longer relevant, could you kindly please elucidate as to which, therefore, is the more valid and cogent narrative through which we are to understand the world around us, that&#8217;s to say, what&#8217;s the alternative narrative that offers answers to the questions: what is social injustice  and what forms does it take; why does it matter; is it morally neutral, positive, or negative; what are the remedies against its forms and so on? </p>
<p>Or are the above questions irrelevant or simply the wrong ones to the answers available?</p>
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		<title>By: Rahb</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37181</link>
		<dc:creator>Rahb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 05:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37181</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Any ideal clung to without regard for the present situation is an extreme and does not recognize the world of constant changes in which we live. It is surely doomed. Likewise with systems based on our selfish greed (freemarket capitalism etc.), arrogance (extreme nationalism etc.), fear or hatred (propaganda states/ most places)...  Murray Bookchin reminded us often that we must learn from the past and move on.  To truly produce new ideas we need solid education, completely open communication between people and a transparent unbiased  media  available to the masses. Bakunin made some good points about the near impossibility of accomplishing that for the poor in any system. Even in places that education is &quot;free&quot; today, for the poor this is not exactly &quot;free&quot;. How can one work 2 or 3 jobs, or go without proper nourishment  and rest, but still truly grasp his education?  Sadly the democratic centralist structures tend to be easiest on our somewhat inherent beastly nature - we have drones relying (as they have no, time, energy, interest, or what have you) on betas (who may have some interest in a larger area of influence than average Joe drone, but mostly an interest in advancing) to communicate and influence the alpha, who inevitably is interested primarily in his/her own well being... Large centralized governments can never be truly transparent either (which is necessary if it has any hope of representing the values of its people) simply because the area of  coverage exceeds the average drones area of concern and understanding - If I live in Mexico and my country extends to Nepal but I&#039;ve never been nor have close friends and family past the Caribbean, how can I know how the government will work best in Nepal? Even in USSR, the ideas, values, and concerns of a Lithuanian are not necessarily the same (nor should they necessarily be) as a person in Afghanistan... Transparent government can also only happen when the people recognize their governing bodies. In capitalism the corporation ends up being the alpha. Once a corporation determines a certain percentage of the population&#039;s income and where they are able to shop (i.e. Walmart)/ distribution of wealth and product in general, or is in control of resource distribution for a community, etc. they have essentially purchased a constituency (something that sorely needs to be recognized in &quot;democratic&quot; societies of the west).   Then there is the issue of government and media controlled masses who have no clue what their own values actually are, so on and so forth. 
Perhaps working in our small communities to provide basic necessities would be possible in the west and once excesses are developed those could be passed on to communities outside of that and so on, free of charge. The small communities could also produce their own currency, introduced slowly to be used for necessities (i.e. at first - for housing and electricity, both of which can be created easily by most communities with the right know how - then for food, also producible in most western communities - eventually taxes while central government still exists etc.) , the currency would of course be earned by providing support for the community and would allow for paying off debt, funding for medical needs etc., it may even address some of Kalidas&#039; concerns. This again would require open and available education but I think if it is introduced at the right pace for the individual community based on their specific needs and values (once identified) there could even be a chance of that. Working in smaller communities would also deal with transparency issues if done correctly. Long term, idealistically,  central government would be there for peaceful dispute resolution and not much else... -that&#039;s a long way off.
Sorry for the length of this comment - There are a ton of things that this doesn&#039;t address and it seems idealistic on the surface; unfortunately, without creating an even longer novel I can&#039;t expand much... Right now I&#039;d say the main thing is that, we continue to get those creative and intellectual juices flowing, think outside the box, encourage others to think independently and get informed + involved as well. Then maybe someday people will change for the better and get things happening.  Peace!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any ideal clung to without regard for the present situation is an extreme and does not recognize the world of constant changes in which we live. It is surely doomed. Likewise with systems based on our selfish greed (freemarket capitalism etc.), arrogance (extreme nationalism etc.), fear or hatred (propaganda states/ most places)&#8230;  Murray Bookchin reminded us often that we must learn from the past and move on.  To truly produce new ideas we need solid education, completely open communication between people and a transparent unbiased  media  available to the masses. Bakunin made some good points about the near impossibility of accomplishing that for the poor in any system. Even in places that education is &#8220;free&#8221; today, for the poor this is not exactly &#8220;free&#8221;. How can one work 2 or 3 jobs, or go without proper nourishment  and rest, but still truly grasp his education?  Sadly the democratic centralist structures tend to be easiest on our somewhat inherent beastly nature &#8211; we have drones relying (as they have no, time, energy, interest, or what have you) on betas (who may have some interest in a larger area of influence than average Joe drone, but mostly an interest in advancing) to communicate and influence the alpha, who inevitably is interested primarily in his/her own well being&#8230; Large centralized governments can never be truly transparent either (which is necessary if it has any hope of representing the values of its people) simply because the area of  coverage exceeds the average drones area of concern and understanding &#8211; If I live in Mexico and my country extends to Nepal but I&#8217;ve never been nor have close friends and family past the Caribbean, how can I know how the government will work best in Nepal? Even in USSR, the ideas, values, and concerns of a Lithuanian are not necessarily the same (nor should they necessarily be) as a person in Afghanistan&#8230; Transparent government can also only happen when the people recognize their governing bodies. In capitalism the corporation ends up being the alpha. Once a corporation determines a certain percentage of the population&#8217;s income and where they are able to shop (i.e. Walmart)/ distribution of wealth and product in general, or is in control of resource distribution for a community, etc. they have essentially purchased a constituency (something that sorely needs to be recognized in &#8220;democratic&#8221; societies of the west).   Then there is the issue of government and media controlled masses who have no clue what their own values actually are, so on and so forth.<br />
Perhaps working in our small communities to provide basic necessities would be possible in the west and once excesses are developed those could be passed on to communities outside of that and so on, free of charge. The small communities could also produce their own currency, introduced slowly to be used for necessities (i.e. at first &#8211; for housing and electricity, both of which can be created easily by most communities with the right know how &#8211; then for food, also producible in most western communities &#8211; eventually taxes while central government still exists etc.) , the currency would of course be earned by providing support for the community and would allow for paying off debt, funding for medical needs etc., it may even address some of Kalidas&#8217; concerns. This again would require open and available education but I think if it is introduced at the right pace for the individual community based on their specific needs and values (once identified) there could even be a chance of that. Working in smaller communities would also deal with transparency issues if done correctly. Long term, idealistically,  central government would be there for peaceful dispute resolution and not much else&#8230; -that&#8217;s a long way off.<br />
Sorry for the length of this comment &#8211; There are a ton of things that this doesn&#8217;t address and it seems idealistic on the surface; unfortunately, without creating an even longer novel I can&#8217;t expand much&#8230; Right now I&#8217;d say the main thing is that, we continue to get those creative and intellectual juices flowing, think outside the box, encourage others to think independently and get informed + involved as well. Then maybe someday people will change for the better and get things happening.  Peace!</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37177</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I sympathize with socialists, the regurgitated hermetic mysticism of the Dialectic (and its offshoots, such as the laughable &quot;negation of the negation&quot;) is the primary reason why socialist theory has always resulted in fragmentation, schism and abject practical failure.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/index.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I sympathize with socialists, the regurgitated hermetic mysticism of the Dialectic (and its offshoots, such as the laughable &#8220;negation of the negation&#8221;) is the primary reason why socialist theory has always resulted in fragmentation, schism and abject practical failure.</p>
<p><a href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rosa.l/index.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: kalidas</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37166</link>
		<dc:creator>kalidas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Speaking of &quot;revisionist,&quot; weren&#039;t the &quot;Bolsheviks&quot; known, all those years ago, as the &quot;Jewish Bolsheviks?&quot;
And where oh where did they go?
Just wondering..

Just because something seems like or actually is anti-semitic, doesn&#039;t mean it isn&#039;t true. 

http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/bolshies.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of &#8220;revisionist,&#8221; weren&#8217;t the &#8220;Bolsheviks&#8221; known, all those years ago, as the &#8220;Jewish Bolsheviks?&#8221;<br />
And where oh where did they go?<br />
Just wondering..</p>
<p>Just because something seems like or actually is anti-semitic, doesn&#8217;t mean it isn&#8217;t true. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/bolshies.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/bolshies.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: lichen</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37164</link>
		<dc:creator>lichen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, marxism, trotskyism et all is stale, tired, outdated, and lacking in creativity.  It is just another abstract political ideology, which is bound up with intellectual treatises and based on old things.  I&#039;m glad we have things like the World Social Forum now where, especailly in the beginning, creative, new solutions to the left of marxism, have come out.  Furthermore, if you don&#039;t take into account the essential human rights of children that need to be protected by making corporal punishment and all degrading, humiliating behavior and emotional abuse towards them illegal, then you will never have a society where people care enough to see everyone&#039;s legitimate economic equality and right to democracy; to schools run democratically by the students, families run with democracy, workplaces run with democracy, local democracy trickling power up.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, marxism, trotskyism et all is stale, tired, outdated, and lacking in creativity.  It is just another abstract political ideology, which is bound up with intellectual treatises and based on old things.  I&#8217;m glad we have things like the World Social Forum now where, especailly in the beginning, creative, new solutions to the left of marxism, have come out.  Furthermore, if you don&#8217;t take into account the essential human rights of children that need to be protected by making corporal punishment and all degrading, humiliating behavior and emotional abuse towards them illegal, then you will never have a society where people care enough to see everyone&#8217;s legitimate economic equality and right to democracy; to schools run democratically by the students, families run with democracy, workplaces run with democracy, local democracy trickling power up.</p>
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		<title>By: bozh</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/negation-of-the-negation/#comment-37142</link>
		<dc:creator>bozh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=6393#comment-37142</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i am mot sure that roshan equates industrialiazation with capitalism.
one can&#039;t equate wealth/money in america with wealth/money in USSR.
it is obvious that russia without communism wld have not needed to be industrailized to survive or tp prevent an aggression against it.

but russia was ruled by communists thus had lethal enemies. china is ruled by communists; thus it needs to acquire good weapons to abide.
it can be done via industrialization only.

as US wld never sell china their best weapons. today, as gaza had shown any land can be pulverized just from air alone with minimal casualties.

wld cuba with nuclear weapons be so hounded by haters of socialism? probably not as it cld threaten US not only with own wmd but wld arm other socialist lands with wmd.
thnx]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i am mot sure that roshan equates industrialiazation with capitalism.<br />
one can&#8217;t equate wealth/money in america with wealth/money in USSR.<br />
it is obvious that russia without communism wld have not needed to be industrailized to survive or tp prevent an aggression against it.</p>
<p>but russia was ruled by communists thus had lethal enemies. china is ruled by communists; thus it needs to acquire good weapons to abide.<br />
it can be done via industrialization only.</p>
<p>as US wld never sell china their best weapons. today, as gaza had shown any land can be pulverized just from air alone with minimal casualties.</p>
<p>wld cuba with nuclear weapons be so hounded by haters of socialism? probably not as it cld threaten US not only with own wmd but wld arm other socialist lands with wmd.<br />
thnx</p>
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