when did I say palestine is occupying Israel? I do agree that the Israelis are occupying Israel. That’s totally true, and I also think that palestinians are being treated unjustly. But I refuse to pick sides.
And the problem is coming from both sides is true and not true I believe. It’s not true, because the actions of the Palestinians are fueled by the actions of Israel(bordercontrol, wall, occupation, etc.) And therefor you might state that the problem is coming from Israel. But we can’t send the Zionists back where they came from, wan we? And I think there will (in all possible solutions) be a group of extremist palestinians that will plot assaults on Jews. I try to look at both sides: I know(/believe) it would be more just and right if the palestians could return to their homes and the Zionists would return to where they came from or would live between the palestinians without occupying or harrassing(=is this spelled correctly?) them. But unfortunatly Israel will never accept a solution like that.
I’m trying to find a solution that’s not based on the past or on promises by God or wathever. But a solution that’s based on the current situation, a solution that gives everyone the opportunity for a decent life.

Palestine is NOT occupying Israel, Israel is occupying Palestine.

I cannot imagine that you would say such a thing about Black Americans who were enslaved or black South Africans who lived under aparteid.

Same thing with Palestine.

I do agree that that is the reason why we have difficulty coming to a solution. We need to find the root of the prolems and solve them. But I don’t think we need a lot of discussion to see the reasons for action from both sides. Further discussion on why actions take place is hardly needed in my opinion. I prefere to discuss why solutions will or won’t work(for example would the idea that I posted here a week ago work? And -most important- why?). And only at that point is the information on the root of the problem interesting. I prefere discussions that lead to things, creating ideas. Not spitting out your opinion because that is less likely to help. It’s less likely to make people think.

Off course, the reason why the US has difficulty to react is (I think) the zionist lobby. And the stupid thing is that the rest of the world sits and waits till the US does something.
And even if they act, how can you expect palestinians to step into negotiations that are lead by a governement who’s influenced by such a powerfull loby?

Instead of discussing who’s the bad guy, try figuring out a solution. Because that’s the only thing that helps!

It is important to understand the basis for the what going on. The “Liberals” tend to want to water down that kind of analysis but in the end it doesn’t solve problems because if to don’t do the proper analysis you cannot get to the root of the problem. Zionism is the root of the problem and it needs to be confronted. Unfortunately Zionism’s influence is quite powerful within the U.S. Zionism is so powerful that it has even influence the Left to such a degree as to demobilize the anti-war movement and to hold up a “leftist” icon/guru (Noam Chomsky) who tells the left NOT to boycott Israel and that there is no Zionist influence of U.S. foreign policy. Thus having the net effect of allowing Zionism to go unconfronted and to flourish.

Liberal Zionism is much worst than what come from the Likudniks because it maintains the status quo by giving the appearance of resolution and caring. It is false and a huge fallacy.

Anybody has a story to share about one of these execution events?

Al-Jazeera TV, January 22, 2009: “Today, Hamas Gangs Are Unleashed Like Packs of Animals on the Streets of Gaza Against Fatah Members”

January 28, 2009 No. 2217
PLO Executive Committee Secretary Yasser Abd Rabbo Accuses Hamas of New Atrocities Against Fatah Members in Gaza
Following are excerpts from speeches delivered by PLO Executive Committee secretary Yasser Abd Rabbo, which aired on Al-Jazeera TV on January 22, 2009 and on Al-Arabiya TV on January 16, 2009.

Yasser Abd Rabbo: “Yesterday, we heard Khaled Mash’al talking from Damascus about new, additional preconditions for national reconciliation – the only goal of which is to hinder the achievement of reconciliation.

[...]

“Today, Hamas gangs are unleashed like packs of animals on the streets of Gaza against Fatah members. Because the military bases and the prisons have been destroyed, they have turned Gaza schools, Al-Nasser Hospital, the radiology department at Shifa’ Hospital, Al-Aqsa University, and other places, including mosques, into centers for the detention, interrogation, and torture of Fatah members and members of other national Palestinian factions.

[...]

“Dozens of people have been shot in the leg, been beaten savagely, and had their bones broken, because they are members of the Fatah movement, which took to the streets of Gaza to confront the occupation, leaving all disagreements [with Hamas] behind, during the battle against the invasion by the Israeli occupation. This is what is happening today in Gaza.

[...]

“This reminds me of the ‘glorious exploits’ of Chemical Ali in southern Iraq after the 1991 ‘Mother of All Wars.’ When the smoke of battle cleared, he turned his gangs and his fire against the Iraqis in southern Iraq, and the massacre that ensued is known to all. Who is the ‘Chemical’ today in Gaza, who wants to turn Gaza into the venue of a new massacre?

[...]

“I heard that Abu Marzouq is sanctioning the killing of Palestinians, in an interview with the Qatari Al-Sharq newspaper the day before yesterday. He said that they have [captured] collaborators, and they have already executed some, while others await their turn. What collaborators are you talking about, Mr. Abu Marzouq? Of course he has expanded the list, saying that anyone who criticizes the policy of Hamas a traitor and a collaborator, and that it is okay to kill him. Is this the promised Islamic rule, or is it a blood-soaked lie about Islam?

[...]

“Who plunders the trucks bringing aid to the Gaza Strip, and distributes it only among the follows of its party and movement, while the children of Gaza are starving? Who is stealing the land of Gaza, dividing it into lots, and giving them to the cronies of Hamas members of the Shura Council?” [...]

You are making many generalities without facts to support what you are saying, indicating that you really do not know what you are talking about, this is typical of American liberals in regards to Israel/Palestine, they want to tsk-tsk both sides for not being pacifist but the liberals are stupid when it comes to the facts:

You say: “Hamas governs the Palestinians and like previous Palestininan governments, isn’t very peaceful to say the least. Both Israel and Palestinian governments are using forms of propaganda to appear as victims in some way.”

Hamas has been very concilitory, wanting to talk to Israel, but when the US and Israel refuse to recognize the democratically elected government of the Palestinians, and recognize the US/Israeli puppet Mahmoud Abbas as leader, you are not going to have peace. Hamas was ever arresting those they thought were planning violence against Israel before the ceasfire was broken.

Also, according to Israel’s own website, it was Israel that broke the ceasefire, going into Gaza and killing Palestinians.

Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza, but there are still people like you that want to say that both sides are at fault.

Do not forget the settlements: there are 290,000 settlers on the West Bank, Israel is only offering to remove 60,000 of them. Many of the settlers are there exactly because they do not want Palestine to have their own state, and they will tell you that, just like they will tell you that Palestinians are lower than dogs. They continue to build roads that the settlers can only travel on.

I really want to know why you think that, “Both Israel and Palestinian governments are using forms of propaganda to appear as victims in some way.” Yes, Israel does this, through the organ that is called the American mainstream media.

the point in time is 1917 when the socalled partition of palestine started.
and the fact that one needs to remember/digest is that ‘partion’ (read: land theft) is still going on.
that’s all folks!

the point in time is 1917 when the socalled partition of palestine started.
and the fact that one needs to remember/digest is that ‘partion’ (read: land theft) is still going on.
that’s all folks!

I honestly think that if Israelis walked around the refugee camps of Palestinians, there wouldn’t be any hatred towards a people like that, but instead sympathy. I can’t hate a person wanting a better life when I see him live under a tent.

At the same time, if Palestinians would see that the Israeli civilians want to remain civilians and just go about their daily lives like they have been, they would probably see that Israelis themselves are peaceful people.

The citizens of Israel don’t kill anyone, their hatred stems from the episodes of Israelis being attacked. If that fire isn’t fueled, it will burn out and there will be no more hate.

I think the majority of Israelis and Palestinians have common sense, and I believe that both of them are willing to accept one another as neighbors. Humane conditions and peace of mind is what’s most important for peace to happen. Both sides need to know that the other will not get in their way of prosperity. Right now both sides assume, and have causes for those assumptions, that the other side is trying to prevent them from living in peace.

Fact is, citizens are too passive and lazy to go fight people, only the radicals are insane enough to actually take action. If there is no reason to fight, when peace of mind and prosperity are realities, there will be no fuel for fighting, no need for hate.

To get to that point will require a third party to negotiate a cease fire. Leaders of both sides need to be strong and not break any of the conditions for peace. Hamas needs to be taken out of power, they would not be needed if there was peace as a dictator like regime are only useful in times of crisis. If there is no crisis then democracy prevails.

I’m Thomas, I’m from Belgium. This article gmave me a lot of insight, and I’d like to thank the autor for writing this. And this is MY solution to your problem:

First of all: I’d like to quote someone:

“When there is a problem between 2 parties and you find an idea that both parties don’t like, then you know you’ve found a solution. You only need to make both parties like the idea.”

And the idea that nobody will like is this: Instead of a 2 state solution, a 1 state solution(I know it sounds crazy) with a confederal state(a bit like Belgium).
1 governement that consists out of democraticly chosen Israelis and Palestinians for things like foreign affairs, finances, etc. And then 1 governement for the Jews and 1 for the palestinians to decide about cultural things etc.

I know this sounds crazy, but if Israël makes Palestine part of its country, police can patrol and you can’t publicly move kassan rockets accross the street anymore.
These police forces should consist out of palestines and Jews combined so they can’t be accused of racism. I know this must sound like something verry difficult for Jews: you are supposed to be protected by your former enemy. But this is why (at least the first few decades, maybe more than a century) I think the Israëli army should stay in function. So, in case that the armed palestinin police might want to grab power or abuse theirs.
Furthermore I think that treating the palestinians equally compared to Israëli citizens will give them a better feeling psychologicly. But also better oppurtunity for work and (most important to me) more the feeling that they have something to lose(If you’re in a bad situation you are more likely to get violent).

To convince Jews: Now already 20% of the population in Israël is arab. And trying to get all the arabs leave the land will only work if you do naughty things. So it will never work (I hope)

To convince arabs: Grab this possibility to create a better future for your children.

It’s late now, and I’m tired. I hope I wrote everything down as it should be. If you have any questions or remarks. Tell me, or mail me at moc.liamgnull@sneppovt

I hope from the bottom of my heart that this solution(or anything else that can stop violence and hatred) doesn’t come too late. This article makes me afraid and pleases me at the same time: The soccer fans are terrible, but the fact that this neutral article is written by an Israeli gives me hope.

I hope somebody reads this,
Many thanks for doing so,
Thomas.

ps: sorry for the lousy English.

Those who are chanting: “Why have the schools in Gaza been shut down/ Because all the children were gunned down!” ARE bloodthirsty monsters as are the people in NYC who were cheering Israel on and saying “wipe Gaza off the map” and “don’t screw with the Jews.”

These people ARE bloodthirsty monsters.