Comments on: The Mad Minority http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:51:24 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: James Keye http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33887 James Keye Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:15:45 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33887 Bozh, I think that your observation is correct. The reason, I believe, is that our new adaptation has had the consequence of not only giving us speed of response for environmental change, but has resulted in referencing or basing behavior on our imaginings rather than on biophysical reality. This has caused great difficulties, but is part of the evolutionary process of working out the functioning of a new and very powerful adaptation. I think of our relation to consciousness order as the early gliders relationship to flight. In using consciousness order to discover ways to survive the coming troubles, we may discover how to live with this power as part of the ecosystem. The alternative would be for this biological design to fail. Bozh,

I think that your observation is correct. The reason, I believe, is that our new adaptation has had the consequence of not only giving us speed of response for environmental change, but has resulted in referencing or basing behavior on our imaginings rather than on biophysical reality. This has caused great difficulties, but is part of the evolutionary process of working out the functioning of a new and very powerful adaptation. I think of our relation to consciousness order as the early gliders relationship to flight. In using consciousness order to discover ways to survive the coming troubles, we may discover how to live with this power as part of the ecosystem. The alternative would be for this biological design to fail.

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33877 bozh Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:08:26 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33877 i'l be very short and say that generally speaking and in a general way there was nothing wrong w. us ca 30Kyrs and before. every word our ancestors spoke had full symbolic value. as we now know, not any longer and for at least 10Kyrs. as for our true nature, it's either a product of the nature or gods. and i'm not entering their 'minds' w. their intent/purpose, etc. so, what changed us? i say, clergy and some feral people. but i say we'r OK. we can go back to what nature originally made us. we'l possibly never live in an ideal world, but we can go back to being more gentle to one another, more gregarious/caring; become once again interdependent, etcetc. and let the feral people rule over us if they can't wean selves of the vice. an done does't need money; just admiration/care for our people/us. thnx i’l be very short and say that generally speaking and in a general way there was nothing wrong w. us ca 30Kyrs and before.
every word our ancestors spoke had full symbolic value. as we now know, not any longer and for at least 10Kyrs.
as for our true nature, it’s either a product of the nature or gods.
and i’m not entering their ‘minds’ w. their intent/purpose, etc.
so, what changed us?
i say, clergy and some feral people. but i say we’r OK. we can go back to what nature originally made us.
we’l possibly never live in an ideal world, but we can go back to being more gentle to one another, more gregarious/caring; become once again interdependent, etcetc.
and let the feral people rule over us if they can’t wean selves of the vice.
an done does’t need money; just admiration/care for our people/us. thnx

]]> By: Petronius http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33798 Petronius Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:13:39 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33798 I understand and that what threatens makes us stronger :-) and indeed there should have been more Pocahontases. In the interim demystification of the mad 3-5% as you described them is imperative (in the best sense of the word). I understand and that what threatens makes us stronger :-) and
indeed there should have been more Pocahontases. In the interim demystification of the mad 3-5% as you described them is imperative (in the best sense of the word).

]]> By: James Keye http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33796 James Keye Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:58:42 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33796 Some of us are drawn to that which threatens, especially when part of the threat challenges our certainties. But, I was mainly referring to the devotion of those who entered and were accepted by those cultures. Some of us are drawn to that which threatens, especially when part of the threat challenges our certainties. But, I was mainly referring to the devotion of those who entered and were accepted by those cultures.

]]> By: Petronius http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33794 Petronius Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:46:18 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33794 Dr. Keye, thank you for this very interesting response. I agree and understand the self referencing, which I frankly would call mythology, while consciousness order is a basic survival strategy once cultivation of the environment entered the human equation. Again I feel that Zerzan has a good point in detesting culture (or rather civilization, though the last is such a realitive term that it cannot be analysed). I wonder though about the affinity as you write for aboriginal cultures, because the threat of their sanity runs all through early American records. Dr. Keye, thank you for this very interesting response. I agree and understand the self referencing, which I frankly would call mythology, while consciousness order is a basic survival strategy once cultivation
of the environment entered the human equation. Again I feel that Zerzan has a good point in detesting culture (or rather civilization, though the last is such a realitive term that it cannot be analysed).
I wonder though about the affinity as you write for aboriginal cultures, because the threat of their sanity runs all through early American records.

]]> By: James Keye http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33793 James Keye Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:31:42 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33793 Bozh, Even the timid dog would bark and the soldier boys had lots of guns. Plus they longed for the timid, there being plenty of the other all around them in the valleys of Tora Bora. I think my comment to Petronius relates to the other parts of your comment. Bozh,
Even the timid dog would bark and the soldier boys had lots of guns. Plus they longed for the timid, there being plenty of the other all around them in the valleys of Tora Bora. I think my comment to Petronius relates to the other parts of your comment.

]]> By: James Keye http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33792 James Keye Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:26:27 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33792 Petronius, To be a little serious for a moment: your excellent observation about the “juvenile” frontier; to wit: It is my argument that humans within their new adaptation (Consciousness Order) came into a new relation with environmental information. Other genetically based organisms are maintained in their species condition by a manifest genetic structure – environment ‘forms’ for them within those designs. The details of human life are largely formed by the environment within the Consciousness Order. What is especially important about this is that how this formation takes place was once a native product of the biological or Living Order. An analogy: eating sufficient calories insured an abundance of vitamins A, B, C, D, etc. and so the physiological pathways for their creation disappeared, thus making their ingestion essential. An essential biological ingredient of life was left entirely to the process of getting energy to remain alive – because it could. The process of giving order to human behavior and giving it structure in relation to our biology was dependent on a process of development in the native environment with all of its biophysical immediacies – and this was so because it could. But Consciousness Order contained the capacity to become self-referencing and there was no design in the system to tell the difference between an input that was imagined (the product of self-referencing) and one that was “reality.” We have long since become almost completely self-referenced. To your observation: the lack of even the social construct was not filled by any organized environmental process to mature those who “went west.” There was, however, often an affinity for the maturity of Aboriginal cultures that had not been too badly damaged. Petronius,
To be a little serious for a moment: your excellent observation about the “juvenile” frontier; to wit: It is my argument that humans within their new adaptation (Consciousness Order) came into a new relation with environmental information. Other genetically based organisms are maintained in their species condition by a manifest genetic structure – environment ‘forms’ for them within those designs. The details of human life are largely formed by the environment within the Consciousness Order. What is especially important about this is that how this formation takes place was once a native product of the biological or Living Order. An analogy: eating sufficient calories insured an abundance of vitamins A, B, C, D, etc. and so the physiological pathways for their creation disappeared, thus making their ingestion essential. An essential biological ingredient of life was left entirely to the process of getting energy to remain alive – because it could. The process of giving order to human behavior and giving it structure in relation to our biology was dependent on a process of development in the native environment with all of its biophysical immediacies – and this was so because it could. But Consciousness Order contained the capacity to become self-referencing and there was no design in the system to tell the difference between an input that was imagined (the product of self-referencing) and one that was “reality.” We have long since become almost completely self-referenced. To your observation: the lack of even the social construct was not filled by any organized environmental process to mature those who “went west.” There was, however, often an affinity for the maturity of Aboriginal cultures that had not been too badly damaged.

]]> By: Petronius http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33790 Petronius Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:05:36 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33790 PS monod was correct then, human domestication becomes ‘second nature’. there is hope though, throwing shoes at someone in the moslem world is a sign of utter contempt, not aggression, a symbolism which is not understood here. and symbolism has a tighter hold even in the west, so though the elites know they have no power except by general consent, any act to unmask them (like with the wizard of oz) is radical. PS
monod was correct then, human domestication becomes ‘second nature’. there is hope though, throwing shoes at someone in the moslem world is a sign of utter contempt, not aggression, a symbolism which is not understood here. and symbolism has a tighter hold even in the west, so though the elites know they have no power except by general consent, any act to unmask them (like with the wizard of oz) is radical.

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33788 bozh Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:30:32 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33788 james keye, in short, to nature success is mere survival? and to us humans success is titles, stardoms, expensive clothes, higher education, wealth? but, it is inexplicable to me that, us being part of nature, it has permitted us to be so excessive in our greed, lust for power, cheating, deceiving, etcetc. but if we wld evaluate that god(s) exists, then it is gods that permits such behavior. as for these dogs, wldn't it have been better to have shot timid dogs and kept the brave ones?! thnx james keye,
in short, to nature success is mere survival? and to us humans success is titles, stardoms, expensive clothes, higher education, wealth?
but, it is inexplicable to me that, us being part of nature, it has permitted us to be so excessive in our greed, lust for power, cheating, deceiving, etcetc.
but if we wld evaluate that god(s) exists, then it is gods that permits such behavior.
as for these dogs, wldn’t it have been better to have shot timid dogs and kept the brave ones?! thnx

]]> By: Petronius http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33787 Petronius Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:29:13 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33787 dear dr. keye, thanks for your in fact quite funny response. human neotony indeed, but it is more apparent it seems in the new colonies of america than in the old countries of continental europe. is it maybe so that materialism will have a greater grip on our consciousness ? after all as piaget has hinted on, infants acquire a sense of self not only by reflection but by acquisition. as for the matrix movie, what it meant was the artificial consent of the ruled (shades of chomsky) and shows the blinders of conformity to which neo fails to respond. thus the elites (like royalty) are protected by an unspoken agreement. all shibboleths are kept 'alive' that way. biophysical reality is a threat to the social contract because the last is entirely artificial. that is why John Zerzan makes sense to me. respectfully, gary dear dr. keye, thanks for your in fact quite funny response. human neotony indeed, but it is more apparent it seems in the new colonies of america than in the old countries of continental europe. is it maybe so that materialism will have a greater grip on our consciousness ? after all as piaget has hinted on, infants acquire a sense of self not only by reflection but by acquisition. as for the matrix movie, what it meant was the artificial consent of the ruled (shades of chomsky) and shows the blinders of conformity to which neo fails to respond. thus the elites (like royalty) are protected by an unspoken agreement. all shibboleths are kept ‘alive’ that way. biophysical reality is a threat to the social contract because the last is entirely artificial. that is why John Zerzan makes sense to me. respectfully, gary

]]> By: James Keye http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33782 James Keye Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:52:36 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33782 1) Neoteny is a process in evolution in which juvenile stages of development come to sexual maturity. This, of course, means that what was previously “adult” disappears in both form and behavior. The most obvious example is the domestic dog; they are more puppy-like and less cunning and self-possessed (adult like) than the wolves and their other possible wild dog progenitors. (A soldier stationed in Afghanistan told me that feral dogs would visit their outposts. They shot the ones that snarled at them and keep as “guards” and feed the ones that were subservient. It is easy to see how this would happen in Paleolithic camps.) There is no reason that we humans have not gone through a similar neoteny in our consciousness/culture adaptation. A major difference would be that the basis is “cultural” and not genetic, and thus, potentially recoverable. But the social definition of “adult” has come to be a mismatch with the biological adult in our species. 2) The Matrix, while certainly related, gives a wrong impression of an omnipotent and omniscient power. The mad minority are filling a niche in the social ecology created by our vast numbers and technological power, and they are insane in the clinical definition: they do not form opinion or action based on (biophysical) reality. And while they have a number of advantages in maintaining their position, they are vulnerable to both mass movements regardless of reality and ultimately to biophysical reality when the bubble of power bursts. Biophysical reality is the ‘it is’ reality that we see in thermodynamics and neurons and the grand designs of biospheric order that we humans can only mess up when we act on them. We need to be part of an “in-action” movie and slow down our assault on the earth’s long developed order. 1) Neoteny is a process in evolution in which juvenile stages of development come to sexual maturity. This, of course, means that what was previously “adult” disappears in both form and behavior. The most obvious example is the domestic dog; they are more puppy-like and less cunning and self-possessed (adult like) than the wolves and their other possible wild dog progenitors. (A soldier stationed in Afghanistan told me that feral dogs would visit their outposts. They shot the ones that snarled at them and keep as “guards” and feed the ones that were subservient. It is easy to see how this would happen in Paleolithic camps.) There is no reason that we humans have not gone through a similar neoteny in our consciousness/culture adaptation. A major difference would be that the basis is “cultural” and not genetic, and thus, potentially recoverable. But the social definition of “adult” has come to be a mismatch with the biological adult in our species.

2) The Matrix, while certainly related, gives a wrong impression of an omnipotent and omniscient power. The mad minority are filling a niche in the social ecology created by our vast numbers and technological power, and they are insane in the clinical definition: they do not form opinion or action based on (biophysical) reality. And while they have a number of advantages in maintaining their position, they are vulnerable to both mass movements regardless of reality and ultimately to biophysical reality when the bubble of power bursts. Biophysical reality is the ‘it is’ reality that we see in thermodynamics and neurons and the grand designs of biospheric order that we humans can only mess up when we act on them. We need to be part of an “in-action” movie and slow down our assault on the earth’s long developed order.

]]> By: Petronius http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33742 Petronius Mon, 15 Dec 2008 18:09:57 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33742 yup, the simile to the matrix film is very true and keyes touches on the underlying hope for sanity. nevertheless everything from language usage (vide the french movement of post structuralism to demystify language in france) to deliberate under-education is geared to defang the power of the masses. strength lies in solidarity, so in materialism everybody is isolated spiritually. that is the vacuum where elites can exert their influence. but the suspension of belief will come sooner or later (like in russia in 1917 and france in 1789) with resulting dire consequences for the status quo. en attendant godot.... yup, the simile to the matrix film is very true and keyes touches on the underlying hope for sanity. nevertheless everything from language usage (vide the french movement of post structuralism to demystify language in france) to deliberate under-education is geared to defang the power of the masses. strength lies in solidarity, so in materialism everybody is isolated spiritually. that is the vacuum where elites can exert their influence. but the suspension of belief will come sooner or later (like in russia in 1917 and france in 1789) with resulting dire consequences for the status quo. en attendant godot….

]]> By: Don Hawkins http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33739 Don Hawkins Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:53:55 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33739 The Matrix is a 1999 film about a computer hacker who learns from mysterious rebels about the true nature of his reality and his role in the war against the controllers of it. James are you a rebel? I think you are sane and what you just wrote was very true. The system of these 3 to 5% will call you a rebel because you see the truth and use your mind for something other than profit. Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember, all I am offering is the truth. Nothing more. You have to let it all go, Neo. Fear, doubt, and disbelief. Free your mind. Welcome to the real world. James what you just wrote was one of the best. The truth knowledge is making some headway much more is needed and on the way. The Matrix is a 1999 film about a computer hacker who learns from mysterious rebels about the true nature of his reality and his role in the war against the controllers of it.

James are you a rebel? I think you are sane and what you just wrote was very true. The system of these 3 to 5% will call you a rebel because you see the truth and use your mind for something other than profit.

Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself.

I’m trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You’re the one that has to walk through it.

You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Remember, all I am offering is the truth. Nothing more.
You have to let it all go, Neo. Fear, doubt, and disbelief. Free your mind.
Welcome to the real world.

James what you just wrote was one of the best. The truth knowledge is making some headway much more is needed and on the way.

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33738 bozh Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:33:11 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33738 there is one aspect of reality that i have thus far not oft thought of to mull over: the avoidance by psychologists (remember everything is connected w. everything else) to study honestly why the populace everywhere yearns so deeply to be led; ie, have leadership. study of causative factors for wars r also not studied. it may be that the psychologists don't study the causes of warfare; or if they do, they don't share their findings w. working class, because wars r causeless; ie, not justifiable for any reason. people love to trust their 'leaders' and r oft in deep denial ab their trust being abused. it's just like a beaten woman. husband repeatedly beats/apologises to her. she continues to hope/trust. only w. caring/loving help can she extricate self from ill-conditioning. she fianlly realizes husband cannot ever change. so amers need deep love/respect that may guide them to finally realize that the ruling class will never change. and organize; resist passively; teach own kids, and who knows what else can be done i'v been there and am still there. thnx there is one aspect of reality that i have thus far not oft thought of to mull over: the avoidance by psychologists (remember everything is connected w. everything else) to study honestly why the populace everywhere yearns so deeply to be led; ie, have leadership.
study of causative factors for wars r also not studied. it may be that the psychologists don’t study the causes of warfare; or if they do, they don’t share their findings w. working class, because wars r causeless; ie, not justifiable for any reason.
people love to trust their ‘leaders’ and r oft in deep denial ab their trust being abused.
it’s just like a beaten woman. husband repeatedly beats/apologises to her.
she continues to hope/trust. only w. caring/loving help can she extricate self from ill-conditioning. she fianlly realizes husband cannot ever change.
so amers need deep love/respect that may guide them to finally realize that the ruling class will never change. and organize; resist passively; teach own kids, and who knows what else can be done
i’v been there and am still there. thnx

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-mad-minority/#comment-33735 bozh Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:53:15 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5325#comment-33735 money or its misuse is root of much evil. in modern times, it even causes some of the floods, cancer, diseases, storms. on internat'l and interpersonal levels, misuse (or exccessive greed/pride) of money causes deceiving-lying-killing-divorce-cheating, etc. yes, i agree, it is the people at the top who do most damage to any society. the 'elite' (the worst among us) comprises advertisers, 'stars', 'educators', army echelons, clergy, journalists, medical profession, politicians comprise possibly 10-15% of the pop. their grip on power can be loosened or eradicated once for all by education. thnx money or its misuse is root of much evil. in modern times, it even causes some of the floods, cancer, diseases, storms.
on internat’l and interpersonal levels, misuse (or exccessive greed/pride) of money causes deceiving-lying-killing-divorce-cheating, etc.
yes, i agree, it is the people at the top who do most damage to any society.
the ‘elite’ (the worst among us) comprises advertisers, ’stars’, ‘educators’, army echelons, clergy, journalists, medical profession, politicians comprise possibly 10-15% of the pop.
their grip on power can be loosened or eradicated once for all by education.
thnx

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