The Inalienable Right to Resist Occupation

Israeli Jews are massacring Palestinians again. Zionists are pinning the blame on the elected representative of the Palestinians: Hamas.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni demonized the Palestinian movement: “Hamas is a terrorist organization and nobody is immune.”

Complicitly, the Whitehouse blamed Hamas, as did Canada’s government. Government officials in the US, Canada, and Europe spoke the same lame phrase, “Israel has a right to defend itself,” as if the slaughter being carried out by a world military power against a starving population could be construed as some kind of defense. Israel, the world’s most frequently cited violator of international law, a racist state, an occupation state built through violence and slow-motion genocide is being acknowledged as having the right to defend its criminality. This is preposterous; there is no right of an occupation regime to defend its occupation. Palestine, however, has a right to resist occupation!

Israeli writer Gideon Levy called Israel’s actions a war crime, but he also blames Hamas: “In its foolishness, Hamas brought this on itself and on its people, but this does not excuse Israel’s overreaction.”1

Hamas chooses to stand and resist occupation rather than getting down on its knees to Israel. It seems for Levy that resistance is foolish.

Levy implied that Israel had a right to react — just it went too far. Thus, Levy depicted Israel as the reactor and Hamas as the provocateur. This is false.2 Levy attempts to present Israel as blameless for Hamas’s firing of rockets — as if all the violent crimes he reported against Palestinians had never happened before the rockets from Gaza.

What the critics of Hamas are alleging — without showing evidence — is that Hamas (or any Palestinian, for that matter) is behind the launching of rickety rockets from Gaza. However, even if Hamas is behind the launching of the rockets, so what!? Hamas, is the elected representative of Palestinians. Palestinians have the legal right to self-determination. They have the moral right to resist occupation. However, the right to resist must also be recognized as a legal right.3 It is absurd to argue that there is no legal right to resist the illegal act of occupation — a prima facie denial of the right to self-determination. History bears this out. Did the early Americans not claim a right to resist British colonialism?4 Did the Europeans not have a right to launch guerrilla attacks on the Nazi occupation regimes? Why does Levy deny this right to Palestinians?

Whether the tactics of Palestinian resistance are in their best interests is debatable. Nonetheless, the Jewish state has never been at a loss to conjure pretexts for its criminal acts.

Demonizing Hamas

In a recent article,5 I took exception to Levy demonizing Hamas. As a “benign” or moderate Israeli voice, Levy, wittingly or unwittingly, fortified a pretext for the destruction heaped on Gaza.

One writer supportive of Palestinian rights rejected criticism of Levy’s writing. Paulo de Rooij wrote, “This portrayal of Gideon Levy is rather unfair, it fails to appreciate Levy’s courage, …”6

De Rooij sets up a hoop: before you analyze and criticize the content of someone’s writing, you must first acknowledge any courage. No, I did not say Levy was courageous but neither did I say he was cowardly. I made no portrayal of Levy. I focused only on what he wrote. When someone writes for public readership, one can usually expect that there will be some who disagree, and some people will express their disagreement. For these purposes, there are widely accepted guidelines for appropriate and rationale discourse.

De Rooij says that the article “fails to understand his value in the Israeli context, and it attacks one of the more benign Israeli personalities.”

Yes, Levy goes against the grain in Israel in that he reports that Palestinians are human and that they suffer. Israelis know about Palestinian suffering, and it certainly causes no massive outpouring of shame or sympathy for their Palestinian victims.

De Rooij often writes about language and how it is twisted in usage, yet he claims the article “attacks” Levy, although nowhere in the article have I criticized Levy the person; I have only dealt with the content of what he wrote. To criticize the written word is not to attack the person.

The writer suggests, “Maybe attacking some of the pernicious zionists would have been more fruitful.”

I submit that the more pernicious Zionists are obvious and do not need exposing; I am, however, concerned about those media types who come across as progressives and yet write Zionist propaganda. I took issue with Levy’s maligning of Hamas. He demonizes Hamas. Is this fair? Should Levy of the occupying Jewish state be criticizing resistance to the occupation?

The critic writes, “Despite the fact that Levy does exhibit some contradictions, he has rendered the Palestinian victims a great service. Primarily because of Levy’s (and Hass’) reporting, Israelis cannot say ‘we did not know’. Is it just because of some of his contradictions that anyone should urge readers to shunt his writings?”

Who suggested Levy’s writings should be shunted?

He argues, “Yes, Levy exhibits some contradictions — most of us do so too — but it is simply absurd to abuse someone who should be clearly considered to be on ‘our’ side.”

Clearly? Who decides what is “our” side? I submit that there are clear principles involved: (1) dispossession of an Indigenous people or other legitimate settlers is a crime against humanity, in its worst form – a genocide; (2) the occupation of the territory of an Indigenous people and legitimate settlers is criminal, and (3) the victims of dispossession and occupation have the right to resist and reclaim their territory and liberate themselves from their occupiers.

Levy fails on (1) and (3). If the dispossession of Palestinians from their territory was wrong in 1967, then why was it right in 1948? Why does Levy deny the inalienable right to resist dispossession, occupation, humiliation, and violence? Is this the side of social justice activists?

De Rooij alleges “abuse” against Levy in the article. If so, then he should point out an instance of such abuse.

He delves further into what appears to be innuendo. The nature of innuendo is that it is murky. He talks about activist posers, about “hurdles,” about “idiocy,” and about hoop jumping. I never imagined that calling for adherence to international law might be equated with requiring someone to jump a hoop, and if antiwar activists, if social justice activists can’t call for simple adherence to the norms of international law, then what can they ask for? Talk? Talk is important, but isn’t that what Oslo and the Roadmap were? Where did that get the Palestinians?

He agrees that Levy has contradictions, and I agree that Levy also does fine reporting. It is not the fine reporting that I am at odds with. I am concerned with the Zionist-serving writing of Levy that defies Palestinian aspirations. To wit, Palestinians voted overwhelmingly for Hamas. By demonizing Hamas in his writing, Levy gives succor to the Israeli extremists strangling Gaza, even though he does not agree with the criminal methods. Militant Israelis could point to his writings and say that even Levy is against Hamas. How benign is that? How does that help Palestinians?

It appears that de Rooij’s attack is based on his contention that the writings of certain people are above criticism. I am obviously not one of them. This is fine because I reject the notion that the writings of anyone are beyond logical analysis, rebuttal, and criticism.

Progressivism is grounded in principles. When progressivist writers waver on principles, when they surrender to lesser evilism of a sort, the danger of the slippery slope presents itself. The equality of people(s) is a fundamental principle. All writers are equals. Every writer’s word must be open to scrutiny and questioning — and where the writing is suspect, it must be open to challenge.

Although progressives may have disagreements, in the end, what is important is solidarity for the rights of the oppressed. Palestinians are being slaughtered again. Palestinians have the same rights as all other peoples have, and these rights must be upheld. Among these rights must be the right to resist all forms of oppression.

  1. Gideon Levy, “The neighborhood bully strikes again,” Haaretz, 27 December 2008. How accurate is his characterization of the Jewish state — “neighborhood bully”? Would calling the Nazi state a “neighborhood bully” have been appropriate? []
  2. Israel violated the cease-fire on 4 November. This allowed it to escalate the situation to its present massacres. “Israel Breaches Gaza Ceasefire: Invades, Kills 7, Seizes Many,” From Occupied Palestine, With Love, 5 November 2008. []
  3. Diakonia, a Swedish church-based sustainable development organization, recognizes the right to resist with non-violent means, but finds that under international humanitarian law there is no explicit mention of the right of an occupied people to resist an occupation. Ingela Karlsson, “Resistance to Israeli occupation – a right?” Diakonia, 24 October 2006. []
  4. Of course, resisting British colonialism did not give Americans the right to dispossess the Indigenous peoples of the land. []
  5. Kim Petersen, “Talk Is Cheap, Human Life Is Not: Justice and Freedom for Palestinians Now!Dissident Voice, 22 December 22 2008. []
  6. Paul de Rooij, “Commentary on Talk Is Cheap, Human Life Is Not,” Palestine: Information with Provenance. []

Kim Petersen is co-editor of Dissident Voice. He can be reached at: kim@dissidentvoice.org. Read other articles by Kim.

70 comments on this article so far ...

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  1. bozh said on December 29th, 2008 at 12:45pm #

    kim petersen,
    i have read levy’s piece; i was appaled by him calling on diplomcay and for “gradual” warfare”
    i also called him a maxi zionist; since he is for isr’s expansion by warfare.
    i’m glad that u have said that pals, just like partisans had, moral and legal obligation to resist occupation.
    yes right, too; but also an obligation/sacred duty. thnx

  2. DavidG. said on December 29th, 2008 at 1:56pm #

    The deplorable events in Gaza are an indictment of the whole of the Western World. For far too long Israel has been allowed free reign. It has become a monster that threatens the survival of our world.

    Thinking people of the world (as opposed to the indoctrinated masses), get off your bums and do something about this genocide. 345 Palestinians have been killed thus far and only 2 Israelis. That should tell you who is in the right, who the victims really are.

    Boycott Israeli products, put pro-Palestinian bumper stickers on your car, avoid Faux News (which is an Israeli mouthpiece), contact your Parliamentarians and express your disgust, form protest groups, do whatever it takes to stop this tragedy, one that could pull us into a nuclear WW3!

    The time to act is NOW before it’s too late!

    http://www.dangerouscreation.com

  3. Tree said on December 29th, 2008 at 2:22pm #

    We need something like an arm band or symbol to show solidarity with Gaza. Normally, I don’t like that kind of thing but it seems like a good way to open dialogue and get out the message of what’s happening. I know in my part of the world, that would really get people’s attention. It would probably provoke a lot of anger, too.
    Does anyone know of any such thing in existance already?

  4. swan said on December 29th, 2008 at 3:01pm #

    Great ideas for showing outrage against this sadistic rampage of Israel against the Gaza strip, from tree and David G., above. Any other suggestions on how to show support for Gaza, any though here in the USA, many, if not most, of your neighbors will call you a terrorist? Stay well; stay strong.

  5. HR said on December 29th, 2008 at 3:33pm #

    Damn Israel, the second largest terrorist state on the planet, right behind the U.S.

  6. bozh said on December 29th, 2008 at 5:29pm #

    in my posts i had been shaken by chomsky’s advice to vote for lesser evil.
    now where is this lesser evil”? voting for O meant voting for uncle sam and thus greater evil.
    that’s what i wrote in some of my posts on dv: expect greater evil.

  7. The Angry Peasant said on December 29th, 2008 at 6:24pm #

    Yes, Israel is the second worst terrorist nation on Earth, after the U.S. You could say that Israel is even more despicable than the United States, though, considering their history. You would think a people that went through the Holocaust just sixty-some years ago would be a little more observant of the lessons of history. It’s unconscienable what Israel has done to the Palestinians. Hopefuly, after World War III—in which the U.S., Great Britain, and Israel will play the role of the Axis Powers, Israelis of every rank and file will be facing their own Nuremburg trials. With a bit of poetic justice, they will be held in Gaza City.

  8. jay tinley said on December 30th, 2008 at 9:29am #

    Its kind of like the great civil libertarian Alan Dershowitz wrote b4 the election — President O would make it easier for liberal types in Europe and US to be supportive of Israel (and US), much more so than if McCain had won.

    Israel will have to rein it in, hopefully sooner before it gets worse, but this is what Hamas has wrought.

  9. Michael Kenny said on December 30th, 2008 at 10:22am #

    “Israel has a right to defend itself”. If world leaders said the opposite, what would be different? Would Israel quake in its jackboots? I doubt it! Would any lives be saved? I doubt it. Israel exists only by virtue of American brute force. It’s lashing out in panic now because it sees that force crumbling and is trying to set up a fait accompli. As long as American power was intact, the Israelis strutted and swaggered. Now, they’re panicking. Once the back of American power is broken, they’ll coming running to the negotiating table with their tails between their legs. There is thus really no point in “tut-tutting” about Israel or other countries’ reactions to its antics. The only thing anyone can do to help the Palestinians is to contribute as far as one can to undermining American power.

  10. Shabnam said on December 30th, 2008 at 1:05pm #

    Crypto Zionists MUST stop using the ‘American power’ pretext. American power has suffered the MOST from the Zionist expansionist policy.
    ‘American power’ is using Zionist tactics, constant killing and torturing, like Israel, to continue its occupation. American power with the help of the neocons, majority Zionist Jews, and help of a book written by a Zionist Jew, “Arab mind” design the Abu Garib rape and torture. The Zionist policy has become the empire’s policy through the influence of Jewish lobby in Washington and in every major Western capitals and Arab capitals. Israel does not want peace, instead, Israel using American power, to wipe Palestinians off the map completely and expand its border further from Mauritania to Afghanistan. The Zionist official in Washington has made it clear that to have ‘peace’ Israel needs ‘secure border’ and enough water. This is a clear signal to Syria that occupied land of Syria with its water that is used illegally by Israel is not going to be returned unless the Arab world and the rest of the of the people of Middle East and Africa wipe the Zionist off the map. Israel also is involved in the sea piracy to bring Red Sea to internationalize the Red Sea against Arab sovereignty. All the sea piracy was and is directed and design by the Zionist and
    http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/926/focus.htm

    implemented through empire in Washington. They can fool no one EXCEPT THEMSELVES.
    Israel is implementing it expansionist policy through proxy. The Palestinian holocaust is a tool to change the facts on the ground for its expansionist policy.

  11. bozh said on December 30th, 2008 at 1:32pm #

    shabnam,
    plutos, i suggest, know that the socalled zionists have no connection to zion nor judeans.
    but as long we buy into this scheme, plutos will keep using it to buttress the ‘right’ of a nonshemitic, nonjudean, and nonisraeli people to steal land and kill/maim innocent shemites.
    one can use the word “semites” if one prefers, but chomsky, levy, peres, newman, streissand, douglas, rabin r not semitic but an admixure of many voelken.
    what is so semitic ab paul newman?
    this volk is a virulent/vitiating/vicious/violent/venomous volk.
    this folk that had never spoken hebrew; only the langauges of folks they lived with.
    yiddish is not yiddisch but a german dialect. their names, until recent times, were mostly slavo-germanic.
    wld one think that such fierce cultists wld give up hebrew language if they had it?
    it can be noticed that the cananitic, arab, and hebraic peoples spoke dialects of a shemitic language.
    in any case if one day scholars prove our facts as untrue, let us now err onthe side of the victims.
    but whatever eventual truth may be, the jushits have no right to a ft of canaan nor palestine. thnx

  12. Hue Longer said on December 30th, 2008 at 7:29pm #

    Shabnam,
    Collective punishment, imprisonment and terror have long been favorite tactics of “American Power”– Well before it could be argued that dogs were being wagged by Zionists. The Philippines come to mind

  13. Deadbeat said on December 30th, 2008 at 9:16pm #

    Hue Longer writes …

    Shabnam, Collective punishment, imprisonment and terror have long been favorite tactics of “American Power”– Well before it could be argued that dogs were being wagged by Zionists. The Philippines come to mind

    Collective punishment was used by those embracing “Manifest Destiny” as well. This assumes that during every epoch that the impetus of oppression is the same. I contend it is not despite the method being the same (or similar). The point is that TODAY Zionism within the United States (like White Supremacy in generation ago) dominates and influences policy. To make the above argument obscure Zionism role. It would be like telling Malcomn X or MLK that their struggle against White Supremacy was a mistaken effort and that they should struggle against “imperialism” first.

    Since the level of agitation is so weak TODAY the struggle against Zionism in the U.S. will easily gain support especially in communities of color who has been vocally critical against Zionism since the 1960’s. Thus the struggle against Zionism must be incorporate with the struggle against White Supremacy.

    The problem as I’ve seen it is that the Left seems unwilling to make that connection.

  14. The Angry Peasant said on December 30th, 2008 at 9:39pm #

    Deadbeat,
    I’ve been visiting this site for awhile, and commented often. I’ve read many of your own comments, as you are probably the most oft-appearing person in here, other than Max Shields. It seems you believe that Zionism is the most powerful, yet elusive , movement influencing and controlling Western society. I’m not at all disagreeing, and I confess that I am not all that familiar with the theory. I’ve run into almost no radical literature on the subject; haven’t come across a documentary about it. Not saying there’s no validity there, once again. But how do you come to this conclusion—that Zionism is, ultimately, the Great Beast we are fighting against? I’ve always seen America’s degeneration into an inhumane, self-destructive, militant-imperialist society to be the result of corporate greed and corruption. I know as a fact that the United States and its assets were sold to global bankers long ago. I do not doubt for a second that religious fervor plays a part in the whole scenario—after all, the United States is the most idiotically religious Western nation on Earth. But Christianity is the predominant faith here, and it’s shoved down our throats all the time. And also, most American people have little more than contempt for the Jewish people, whether or not they will admit it. If this is an attempt to take over the country—let alone the planet—the Jews haven’t done a very effective job so far, at least as far as seizing actual control.
    Anyway, just wondering where your passionate belief that Zionism is our greatest threat comes from. Thanks.

  15. LanceThruster said on December 30th, 2008 at 9:47pm #

    “MURDER as COVER for THEFT is NOT *self-defense*!” ~ LT

  16. Hue Longer said on December 31st, 2008 at 2:09am #

    Deadbeat,

    If what I say obscures Zionism’s role for some or many, then oh well. It doesn’t for me and I’m certain it doesn’t for you. Is this an appeal to noble lies?

  17. Hue Longer said on December 31st, 2008 at 2:10am #

    “This” being what you said

  18. Shabnam said on December 31st, 2008 at 6:37am #

    Hue Longer:

    As Deadbeat pointed out collective punishment was embraced by Jacksonian democrats and their followers. Collective punishment used by the British Empire, Russian empire, Japanese empire and so on and so forth. Why collective punishment cannot be used to establish
    ‘Zionist empire?’ Do you have any problem with it? Or you are trying to divert attention from the MAIN FORCE which is driving the world toward another World War to establish the ‘world government’ according to protocol? You should show benefits gained by the ‘American power’ so far. Is a broken economy, hatred of the world population for US government and American in general, trillions of dollars in debt, losing control in the Middle Eastern countries and North African countries beneficial to American power? Where is the cost and benefit analysis that the rational western ‘democracy’ is so proud of? Is losing influence among the Middle Eastern countries and their population except a few Arab puppet head of states, like Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan where many of these Arab ‘leaders’ are manipulated and directed by Zionist leaders of Israel to cooperate in the interest of Zionist expansionist plan not in the interest of American power good for American power? Where is the beef? The empire has to conduct torture, killings of millions of people, spending billions and billions more to continue the killing of population of the region to hold its presence. Is this according to Const and benefit analysis? What kind of benefit is this that the ‘president’ of the empire cannot go to its colony unless is disguised in his Cowboy hat and stays in the dark so he can spend a few hours among the killers, soldiers, like himself and in ‘green zone.’ He is treated with dirty shoes when a local gets near him in green zone. Where is the benefit? You should show or stop hiding the nature of this war, a Zionist war, to push Palestinian completely out of their land and expands its influence throughout the region by ‘divide and rule’ by proxy. Today, even, La Rouch, a crazy guy who still talking about ‘British empire’ to protect American empire, tells the world:
    “The only `threat’ to Israel is an outbreak of peace. There is no credible threat of war against Israel.”

    Why Israel is afraid of ‘peace?’ Is the ‘peace’ against American empire interest? The answer is NO. An outbreak of peace, contrary to crypto Zionists like Chomsky and his gang who fool American every day by pointing out that US does not allow ‘peace’ between Palestinian and Israelis is beneficial to world in general except Israel. This is the reason behind Israelis use of force to kill and continue the occupation until the Palestinians are wiped off the map of Palestine. This is, however, not enough for the Zionist expansionists. Israel expansionist policy is inseparable from the Zionist ideology which is carried out by proxy. The Zionist expansionists, however, are going to bring ‘American power’ down and this down fall of power already has started. The crypto Zionists can not fool Americans anymore by presenting Israel as a fu**ing valuable asset because this LIE has already exposed to more knowledgeable Americans and is finding its way towards less educated one. Therefore, the crypto Zionists must face the fact or go away. Otherwise American elite would have not produced ‘Israel Lobby’ or ‘Palestine: Peace not Apartheid.’ These are just a few to be mentioned here and the beginning of the long journey.
    http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/zionist_plan.html

  19. Bob said on December 31st, 2008 at 7:07am #

    An open letter to all DV readers:

    Are most of you delusional?

    The great Zionist conspiracy, are you kidding?

    Jewish population world wide is about 13.3 million, and almost half of those live in the US! How is it that this few people can control events far and wide?

    But they apparently can leverage their numbers a hundred to one, and be the one true evil force.

    Try fighting real evil sometime, it’s not a benign as the Jewish people. Real evil cuts the heads off of those who oppose it.

    I suggest you develop real courage and oppose real evil where it exists.

    Bob.

  20. Shabnam said on December 31st, 2008 at 7:14am #

    What was the population of Britain when they let their empire? who runs the foreign policy of the United States related to the Middle East and Africa? Less than 2% population of the US with the leadership of
    AIPAC, tink tanks and rich zionist individuals and mass media.

  21. Danny Ray said on December 31st, 2008 at 9:44am #

    Bob,
    Yes, they are delusional. It always puts me in mind of a story a holocaust survivor told me to illustrate a point he made.

    Morti walks into the barracks at Buchenwald and sees his best friend Chiam reading the SS newspaper, Morti says” Chiam why in the hell are you reading that racist shit”, Chiam says “I like to read about how powerful we are.”

  22. Shabnam said on December 31st, 2008 at 9:53am #

    Why don’t you expand your reading habit and spend a few minutes
    on reading materials which prepare you for the REAL WORLD not the one based on propaganda alone.
    http://www.marwenmedia.com/articles_images/ChomskyADeceiver.html

  23. Deadbeat said on December 31st, 2008 at 11:01am #

    You can use the demographic of AIPAC to understand who influence U.S. Foreign Policy. Even so-called progressive like “Bill Moyers” who obtains his funding from the Annenbergs did a piece on “Christian Zionist”. Moyers was concern about this growing “movement” within the United States. Among his guest to discuss this growing problem was Michael Lerner. Lerner’s position is that Christian Zionism as become a Faustian bargain for Israel and Jews in general.

    The piece by Moyers primarily focused in Pastor Hagee and showed him making a rousing presentation before AIPAC. Clearly Hagee, from the Moyers segment, is now being presented to the American people as the “face” of American Zionism. What was NOT mention however by Moyers is that Christian Zionism represents based on AIPAC membershio only 10% of this “growing” problem while 90% of AIPAC membership is Jewish.

    What we must keep in mind is that Zionism does not represent Judaism but Jews in the United Stated DOES represent the majority of Zionist and this “growing” problem avoided by Moyers has reach ACROSS the entire political spectrum. What differs is TONE.

    Zionist on the “Left” has used their ability to articulate “history” to obscure the role and influence of Zionism within the United States. Noam Chomsky has been elevated as symbol of Left-wing ideas and has become the oracle for left-wing activism. Chomsky has used his influence to LIMIT the bound of discussion and analysis of Zionism and this has been tremendously detrimental to properly access Zionism and to properly confront Zionism.

    Chomsky adeptly bounds Zionism as an Israeli problem. While he is critical of Israeli policies Zionism, to Chomsky will essential go away once the Israeli/Palestinian “conflict” is resolved with the “two-stated” solution due to the “facts on the ground” (settlements). What Chomsky has done is DEFLECT any arguments that Zionism is a RACIST ideology and therefore Chomsky has BLUNTED any attempts to confront Zionism as a form of White Supremacy. The most recent example of this was in a speech in Boston where he appeared with Rev. Desmond Tutu who clearly see Israel as worst than South Africa.

    Another way Chomsky as deflected Zionism is exactly as some of the argument seen here on DV and that is the setting up the “anti-Semitic” strawman of “Jewish power”. It is a brilliant tactic because to bring up any such analysis is by definition “anti-Semitic”. However I do not raise the issue of “Jewish power” I am raising the issue of ZIONIST POWER and INFLUENCE. I do not insult Jews as Zionist. Clearly “The Angry Peasant” see it fitting to insult all Jews as Zionists.

  24. bozh said on December 31st, 2008 at 11:14am #

    shabnam,
    have read ur piece. wld like to touch on following assertions: “collective” punishment, “zionist” empire, “who benefits from US warfare”, “arab leaders manipulated by zionists” and “US wants peace but isr balks”.
    nearly every folk had been meting out collective punishement; it’s clearly a panhuman trait.

    ‘zionist’ empire, if u allude that they want to obtain greater canaan, is just a special case of land theft or, if one prefers, imperialism.
    in stealing land, robbers of all stripes behave same or simialrly.

    arab leaders may be manipulated by the nonshemitic people but shemitic peoples amy also be manipulating nonshemites.
    shemites love money just like other people; so why not take it; wait for an opportunity when shemites will fianlly also be taken seriously?

    who benefits from US warfare/imperialism/thieving? this really needs more study. all i’m gonna say, is the fact that ca 90+ amers r for it.
    US doesn’t want peace! and why? cuz it gains more thru wars.
    nearly all arab lands r or dissemble to be now onside. whatever the truth amers believe they r gainig; else wldn’t do what they do or they may be very naive/stupid?

    while we do not know the telos for the special case of imperialism, the one called “zionism”, it can espied by what went on: expansion.

    i suggest we entirely eradiocate the word “zionism” since a perfunctory look clearly reveals that they r nonshemitic. thnx

  25. Deadbeat said on December 31st, 2008 at 11:35am #

    The Angry Peasant writes…

    It seems you believe that Zionism is the most powerful, yet elusive , movement influencing and controlling Western society.

    The rhetorical question being asked by The Angry Peasant is the same tactic used extensively by the “Left”. That tactic is to obscure and to camouflage Zionism as UNITED STATES policy. That is to use the horrid history of the United States to obscure Zionism’s influence upon CURRENT foreign policy of the United States.

    The rhetoric is to lead the less aware to see the current foreign policy in the United States as just another line in the United States long history of oppression. Using such logic one can say that United Stated foreign policy is just another line in this history of Roman conquest. The idea is to blur and to confuse the primary and driving force of CURRENT policy.

    I would recommend The Angry Peasant to read Policy of a New American Century and to review the motivation of the authors and how these authors became influential members of the Bush Administration.

    What The Angry Peasant is doing is using a Chomskyesque tactic of “blurring” the lines. Zionism is influential in the United States because Zionism is NOW an American problem. Many influential politicians embrace Zionism — Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and Hillary Clinton. In fact every major presidential candidate has to show their fealty to Zionism by addressing AIPAC. This is obvious if one opens their eyes.

    Another tactic of the Left is to blame “oil” as the main reason for the U.S. involvement in the Middle East. This may have been the case when Iran was overthrown in 1953 but this is not the case today. The oil companies were AGAINST the embargo and both wars on Iraq. It is clear that these policies has not been in the “imperial” interest of the United States. But the real problem is not that the Left points out “imperialism” and heinous polices emanating from the United States. The problem is that the “Left” refuses to acknowledge that Zionism has any influence upon U.S. policies. This vacuum of confronting Zionism, especially as a racist ideology, has led to its growth. And Noam Chomsky is not been the so-called “radical” that he is advertised to be. In fact I would argue that Chomsky and his influence has had the opposite effect of helping to EXPAND Zionism’s influence within the American political economy because he has helped to DEMOBILIZE any real confrontation against it.

  26. bozh said on December 31st, 2008 at 12:49pm #

    deadbeat,
    land stealing, a panhuman trait enboldens US land theft. theft of shemitic land by a genetically unknown admixture of voelken, but nonshemitc or nonsemitic, will enbolden other folks to rob other folks.

    so thieves influence one another. the question now arises, who’s the biggest thief of them all.
    today, is it US or isr? but india, china, UK, france, russia et al have stolen land; some of which they still keep.
    u can see now why socalled zionists behave the way do and cry/demand US do more of the same.

    we need to consider that all of the land stealers know that ‘zionists’ have nothing to do w. zion or judea; it’s simpler than that: birds of a feather flock together. thnx

  27. Max Shields said on December 31st, 2008 at 12:54pm #

    Deadbeat,

    I think the issue of Zionism needs clarification. When Shabnam uses this term it is quite clear he is talking about Israel and Israel’s criminal endorsers, wherever they live, regardless of religion or cultural background. Whether that represents a reasonable etymological perspective is beside the point, imo, I know, clearly what Shabnam is talking about.

    But, DB, when you raise this word you seem to be giving it another dimension, one that is deeper than a label for a particular behavior in a particular region of the world. You seem to see it as having escaped time and place and become the very incarnate of all human evil. While I won’t argue that what we see in Gaza is clearly a human evil, it hardly represents ALL of human evilness. Certainly US occupation of coutries throughout the world and the low and high intensity warfare the USA has unleashed over the past centuries is not “Zionism” unless you are changing the meaning to be something much broader than anyone here has indicated.

    I don’t think Zionism (aside from its value as a shorthand description of Israel’s policies and existence on stolen land) is the issue; any more than racism or terrorism are the issue. These and many more are merely a manifested outcome of power and domination. Power and domination does not have its roots in racism or Zionism. Racism is real, but it is created from the desire to dominate. Zionism evolved in that same manner.

    Fear and domination are the tools of a pyramid form of power. One feeds the other. Racism is a label sometimes used to describe its manifestation, sometimes it’s genocide or Zionism.

    But, and here I think it’s important, Zionism is not the root cause of what’s happening in Gaza. It is a label, a term, used to describe those who desire to dominate a region. Fear is used to promote the enterprise. The very same thing can be said of Nazism or Fascism. The same tactics have been employed for the same reasons (we simply change the labels) for milleniums.

    Not to grasp that is to make Zionism something unique and unprecedented, as if there has never before been this kind of inhumanity. That just doesn’t jibe with history.

    Max

    (I think after all this time you know my position on “oil” which is one resource out of many which has built the Western civilization. It is no different that fighting over water, when it is scarce or when one group wishes to control another by controlling that resource. It is so thoroughly documented, DB, that it seems only you refuse to accept it. My position on this has absolutely nothing to do with the Middle East, Zionism or Leftism. It’s physics and biology, to be clear.)

  28. Shabnam said on December 31st, 2008 at 1:15pm #

    Bozh:
    Thank you for your post. In terms of the collective punishment, Israel is using collective punishment to force the indigenous population out of their land. Today, there was a gathering of Arab foreign ministers in Cairo to decide what to do? However, this body like the Palestinian people is divided and weakened by the Zionist manipulation and influence; thus, they cannot execute a damn thing against their enemy, Israel. Israel is using ‘divide and rule’ to manufacture ‘crisis’ and put one against the other to prevent any collective action against Israel.

    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/12/31/63197.html
    This game is responsible for the division among Palestinians as well, which has been contributed to further fragmentation of Palestinian for final solution which is elimination of Palestinians from historical Palestine. This game was used in Iraq to create ‘Kurdistan’ in the north, which is part of Zionist’s plan. They used this game in Sudan to give southern Sudan autonomy to create a puppet for US and Israel to help them in their plan for Sudan partition. Israel already has tremendous amount of influence in Ethiopia and Somalia and is leading the sea piracy in the Red Sea to bring Red Sea and Bab Al-Mandeb under its control through international forces friendly to Israel to help its expansionist policy in the region. Please read the following article which explains Israel plan for the Red Sea. All of these are taking place to fulfill its expansionist policy.
    http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/926/focus.htm

    Historically, the United States was not interested in an independent
    ‘Kurdistan’ because of Turks and the Shah of Iran before 1979. However, partitioning of the regional countries based on ethnic divide is embedded in Zionist expansionist policy. Thus, this policy has become the empire’s policy in the Middle East. Who benefit? Bush and associates were not stupid to follow the Zionist plan without benefits for the American empire. Israel has relationship with Kurds since 19050s and even earlier. The Kurdish north was and is a spy network against Arabs. Israel has benefited from Iraq war and now has a lot of influence in North of Iraq and access to Iraqi oil and land. Israel wants the same thing in Iran. Israel has been very active among Iranian Kurd, Azeri, Lur and even Arab, using few opportunist as ‘leader’ giving them military and financial support and providing them with propaganda tool, in the US and in Europe, hoping that these proxies bring regime change in Iran to protect the Zionist’s interest and help its expansionist policy. No one said that America is innocent. The US has committed many war crimes. The question is: How the war in Iraq and the region does protect the American empire? So far, it is very difficult to show clearly that the policy has been beneficial for the American empire. The whole policy is based on killing Muslims with pretext of ‘war on terror.’ American culture and influence was deep in the region but is under attack since the war. How stupid the empire can get?

  29. Shabnam said on December 31st, 2008 at 2:48pm #

    Bozh:
    Thank you for your post. In terms of the collective punishment, Israel is using collective punishment to force the indigenous population out of their land. Today, there was a gathering of Arab foreign ministers in Cairo to decide what to do? However, this body like the Palestinian people is divided and weakened by the Zionist manipulation and influence; thus, they cannot execute a damn thing against their enemy, Israel. Israel is using ‘divide and rule’ to manufacture ‘crisis’ and put one against the other to prevent any collective action against Israel.
    This game is responsible for the division among Palestinians as well, which has been contributed to further fragmentation of Palestinian for final solution which is elimination of Palestinians from historical Palestine. This game was used in Iraq to create ‘Kurdistan’ in the north, which is part of Zionist’s plan. They used this game in Sudan to give southern Sudan autonomy to create a puppet for US and Israel to help them in their plan for Sudan partition. Israel already has tremendous amount of influence in Ethiopia and Somalia and is leading the sea piracy in the Red Sea to bring Red Sea and Bab Al-Mandeb under its control through international forces friendly to Israel to help its expansionist policy in the region. Please read the following article which explains Israel plan for the Red Sea. All of these are taking place to fulfill its expansionist policy.
    http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/926/focus.htm

    Historically, the United States was not interested in an independent
    ‘Kurdistan’ because of Turks and the Shah of Iran before 1979. However, partitioning of the regional countries based on ethnic divide is embedded in Zionist expansionist policy. Thus, this policy has become the empire’s policy in the Middle East. Who benefit? Bush and associates were not stupid to follow the Zionist plan without benefits for the American empire. Israel has relationship with Kurds since 19050s and even earlier. The Kurdish north was and is a spy network against Arabs. Israel has benefited from Iraq war and now has a lot of influence in North of Iraq and access to Iraqi oil and land. Israel wants the same thing in Iran. Israel has been very active among Iranian Kurd, Azeri, Lur and even Arab, using few opportunist as ‘leader’ giving them military and financial support and providing them with propaganda tool, in the US and in Europe, hoping that these proxies bring regime change in Iran to protect the Zionist’s interest and help its expansionist policy. No one said that America is innocent. The US has committed many war crimes. The question is: How the war in Iraq and the region does protect the American empire? So far, it is very difficult to show clearly that the policy has been beneficial for the American empire. The whole policy is based on killing Muslims with pretext of ‘war on terror.’ American culture and influence was deep in the region but is under attack since the war. How stupid the empire can get?

  30. Hue Longer said on December 31st, 2008 at 2:50pm #

    “‘American power’ is using Zionist tactics, constant killing and torturing, like Israel, to continue its occupation”.
    ——————————————————————————————
    I simply pointed out that the US uses its own tactics. I think I’m being asked to not bring up pre-Zionist American evil because it downplays the evil that is Zionism. But what was said was wrong and frankly sounds not only like apologizing for current US evil, but forgiving and forgetting past US evil.

    If what I said benefits Zionism and one doesn’t like it, then one may as well start attacking math for helping engineers build bombs.

  31. Max Shields said on December 31st, 2008 at 3:21pm #

    Hue, good point,

    Shabnam I guess I haven’t followed enough of your posts. It’s apparent that you are conflating all the world’s evil with Zionism. If I’m right in that assessment, than it’s total hogwash…ahistorical bs.

    Have you read US history (UK history, Roman history, etc.)? If you want to understand the rationale for Israel’s expansionism start with the westward movement in the US, the Trail of Tears, the slaughter in Latin America – Central and Chile, Vietnam, etc. etc. etc. This is NOT new. Zionists, at least what seems to be the general referral here, are simply using the US model of exceptionialism. I’ve heard their military historians say as much. But their motives are like that of the imperial US empire – to grab land (in the broadest sense), conquer and control/dominate. The US is still doing it and the power structure apparently has seen a kindred spirit in Israel as well as a beachhead for US hegemony in the Middle East. But if you take your eye off that ball for a moment you’ll see the US has been and continues to do this elsewhere.

    Let’s be clear headed if nothing else. Evil is evil. We don’t need to think it was just invented in 1948 or ’67. Domination and fear old as standing upright.

  32. Max Shields said on December 31st, 2008 at 3:22pm #

    Correction: there are many examples of human’s actually living cooperatively…therein lies the hope.

  33. Shabnam said on December 31st, 2008 at 3:44pm #

    To point out the Zionist expansionist policy neither downplays American war crimes nor to suggest forgetting past US evil. What has been said is to encourage people to ask a question: does Iraq war was the best policy to protect the interest of American power? If does, how. Creation of Kurdistan never was an American foreign policy, but it was an import one for the Zionist expansionist. Today, using ethnic divide to weaken the targeted countries for partition and creation of non Arab states in being played everywhere from India to Africa. Ayman El-Amir tells us how creation of Kurdistan is important to Israel:
    {Israel has a strategic interest in breaking up Iraq, the only Arab country that once had serious ambitions of acquiring nuclear technology under Saddam Hussein. Israel bombed out the nascent Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak in 1981 and is agitating to have the US do the same in Iran. A divided Iraq would stoke Shia-Sunni rivalry that could easily slide into a low-intensity civil conflict by proxy that would pit Shia Iran and its Arab supporters against US-allied Sunni Muslim states. In the meantime, Israel would build a political-military- economic alliance with a semi-independent Kurdistan Regional Government, with oil wealth that would be considerably enhanced by the prospect of taking over Arab Kirkuk and Mosul. This would allow Israel to break out of its isolation as a non- Arab pariah in the Middle East and join hands with another non-Arab entity in a mutually reinforcing alliance.}
    http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/870/op1.htm

  34. Shabnam said on December 31st, 2008 at 4:03pm #

    Max:

    I am not conflating the entire world’s evil with Zionism. Israel like other country is seeking its own interests where it is not necessarily the interest of the empire. Israel policy is shaped by Zionism where seeking world domination. Israel is using the suffering of Jews to justify its own expansionist policy. Thus, Israel is not seeking peace because it does not provide Israel with the kind of opportunity to achieve its goals, which is world domination. Therefore, Chomsky is wrong when says: The US does not allow peace between Palestinians and Israelis. It is Israel that fears ‘peace’ more than anyone else.

  35. bozh said on December 31st, 2008 at 4:06pm #

    max,
    i agree w. ?all u have said. i wld have to reread ur post to make sure that i agree w. everything us said but it isn’t necessary to do that.
    u may have noticed that, i for good reasons, reject the label “zionism”.
    it’s just that the theft of land by euros (christians/judaists) is in some ways unique.
    eg, s. africa, kenya, chechnya, tibet, and so many other lands have been stolen by empires w. some help from church; palestine had been stolen also by empires (usssr also) but the original idea to steal this land came from judeo-christian ideology.
    w.o. which isr wld have never existed. churhes and priests have played a larger role in this crime than in any other i know of.
    the label zionism is, to me, a corruption/swindle or one of the greatest lies ever told for reasons i have already explained in some of my posts on dv.
    building walls and fences appears also as an unique aspect of imperialism. but i like the term theft even better than the overgeneralization.
    theft/ robbery, as term, is at the rock bottom; and cannot further be defined.
    ask me what’s theft, and i’l be taken aback; desperately searching for a definition; finally giving up and saying, well, i don’t know; ie, to elucidate it verbally.
    end of arguing, definining, redefining.
    but if one uses the word “imperialism”, the first thing that comes to my mind wld be, Ah, stealing land!
    and “stealing land” cannot be further elucidated; it’s crystal clear. thnx

  36. Max Shields said on December 31st, 2008 at 4:13pm #

    ” …does Iraq war was the best policy to protect the interest of American power? If does, how.”

    First this presumes war/invasions are always ultimately in the best interest of the perpetrator – try Vietnam. Was that in the US’s best interest? Was getting into WWI in the US’s best interest?

    If, as DB, you think oil is of little importance to the West and particularly the US, than there is little to discuss because it that’s ALL the Middle East offers the West! Sorry but that’s the straight up truth.

    Now if oil is back on the table – yea, there are major reasons for the US to have invaded Iraq and occupied it. They are not moral, they are illegal, and they were certainly incompetently carried out, but the reasons are very serious indeed and they have little to do with Israel. Energy is the lifeblood of this world you see. There is absolutely NOTHING that would not create a world catastrophe quicker and more precipitously (aside from the US launching their 10k nuke warheads) than a significant decline in access to oil.

    But even with that not the main interest, the US has been playing of the world stage for nearly 100 years (certainly since 1919 when Wilson decided to take us big time into WWI). The policies of the US are fairly consistent and Iraq follows the same trajectory as most of the US’s foreign intervention. In some cases, a little more blatant, more intensive than Central America, but the fingerprints are clearly those of the US.

    Controlling oil is probably a better “reason” to invade Iraq than the Bay of Tonkin was for Vietnam in cold bloody imperialistic terms.

    Can you, Shabnam, give me one reason why Israel wants to destroy Palestine/Palestinians? If you honestly answer that question, than you’ll find it leads back to essential the root cause of all human conflict and ultimately war. This is an old story with some new names and faces.

    (btw, Shabnam and DB, all oil is not equal. Much of Canada’s oil, and I think that of Venezuela’s is not as rich and requires much more refinement than what we’ve been getting for the ME. It amazes me that you think that oil and land and natural resources a condition of every conflict and war, is but a trivial matter, and that some mysterious thing called Zionism is the real cause. I agree that Israel is a cancer on the region. I agree that every Palestinian killed is a crime against humanity. But I can think that, believe that, and realize that this is not about some kind of “ism”; that “isms” are used as pretexts for war, but are NEVER the cause.)

  37. Max Shields said on December 31st, 2008 at 4:35pm #

    Shabnam Shabnam said on December 31st, 2008 at 4:03pm #

    “Max:
    I am not conflating the entire world’s evil with Zionism. Israel like other country is seeking its own interests where it is not necessarily the interest of the empire. Israel policy is shaped by Zionism where seeking world domination. Israel is using the suffering of Jews to justify its own expansionist policy. Thus, Israel is not seeking peace because it does not provide Israel with the kind of opportunity to achieve its goals, which is world domination. Therefore, Chomsky is wrong when says: The US does not allow peace between Palestinians and Israelis. It is Israel that fears ‘peace’ more than anyone else.”

    Thank you for the refinement. You must have posted while I was writing my last post (above). I won’t quarrel about Chomsky. The tail/dog is like the chicken/egg…but it’s clear that these tactics are those following imperialistic principals using the most sophisticated weaponry the world has ever seen.

    But Israel’s interests are no different than any other imperial power (in Israel’s case they are confined to a region). That US and Israel’s “partnership” has evolved there are mutual interests. The US has shown itself do be capable of pulling the reins in on Israel (there is an annual allowance of some $3b give to Israel to keep this little malignant game going and something just shy of that to Egypt.) So, in theory the US can stop the murder. But it doesn’t. Now we all know about AIPAC and the hawks like Nancy Pelosi and her former sidekick Rahm Israel Emanuel. But there is no reason for this “marriage” without a “prize”. The “interests” have converged over time.

    But this is not simply a new “ism”, the same “laws” of imperial empire are at play. That’s my point. Look how long we have “tortured” Cuba with a wretched embargo. It is only because the conditions for Cuba have allowed it to survive with out constant warfare that the story is slightly different. And Zionism is not part of that story in any real sense.

  38. bozh said on December 31st, 2008 at 5:38pm #

    shabnam, my analyses suggest that US indeed doesn’t want peace w. pals or even syrians and lebs.
    isr also doesn’t want peace w. its neighbors. however, if US wanted isr to make peace w. pals, isr wld do as commanded or US wld supply pals w, F-16s, tanks, warships.
    but even much of europe doesn’t want peace there. almost all christians don’t want peace as well.
    chomsky is a mini zionist. he knows, imo, that world plutos r just using his people to advance their goals.
    he fears, imo, that world wld never accept any isr that spills over the borders that r recognized by much of the world and which may cause isr’s evanescence.
    isr is an impoverished land. no clear swift rivers; pristine lakes or forest, teemig w. fish, game; no minerals; it is totaly dependent on US/euro for its existence.
    but erros/US want pay back: isr must wage wars for them. and more importantly, must bomb any arab facility that may be used for manufacture of wmd.
    of course, euros an dUS cld do that selves but r choosing isr to do the dirty work for them.
    of course, there may be other explanations but at this time i can’t think of any. or then nothing makes any sense. thnx

  39. bozh said on December 31st, 2008 at 5:52pm #

    max,
    the oil flowed in the amount world wanted/needed, afaik, no land in ‘o2 complained ab being undersupplied.
    in add’n, any land that wld shut the taps or reduce supply to some lands wld be a casus belli.
    and iraq needed money, having been just a few yrs before attacked by US. it had to come from oil.
    i still affirm that US invaded for only one purpose: establishment of perm bases there.
    this is what i said in ’02. no fact had yet emerged that wld lead to another conclusion.
    iran, syria, and ‘stans r next to fall. again, sole purpose is land theft. thnx

  40. bozh said on December 31st, 2008 at 6:03pm #

    max,
    ab whether vietnam war was in best interest of US.
    i affirm that that war wldn’t have been waged if US plutos did not firmly believe that it wasin their best interest to invade ‘nam.
    it turned out that it wasnt a benefit; just a slight minus.
    it is an entirely diff thing whether the invasion was was perped having in mind interests of all americans. probbably not thnx

  41. Hue Longer said on December 31st, 2008 at 6:07pm #

    “sole purpose” (take your pick) doesn’t account for other purposes which may enable if not be part of mutual purposes or a more major purpose themselves being enabled by another’s idea of sole purpose. I could say privatizing Iraqi concrete companies was a reason for invading Iraq and I wouldn’t be completely wrong…I think Oil, how it’s traded and the power it gives to those who control the resource and the currency its traded in was A factor if not thee factor.

  42. Tree said on December 31st, 2008 at 6:29pm #

    The name is spelled Chaim.

  43. The Angry Peasant said on December 31st, 2008 at 6:53pm #

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, Deadbeat. I wasn’t trying to deflect attention away from Zionism or anything like that. I was just asking you about your theories, period. I confess I don’t know a hell of a lot about it, and you seem to be the resident expert/obsessive about it in DV. Your answer has actually given me a bit more insight into the subject, so thank you. Just try not to jump to conclusions, there. I don’t think Dissident Voice would be the kind of site crawling with Zionist conspirators, okay?

    By the way, try speaking directly to me if you wish to rage against me. It’s a bit more respectful.

  44. Danny Ray said on December 31st, 2008 at 9:20pm #

    Thank you tree

  45. Tree said on December 31st, 2008 at 9:25pm #

    I once did a ton of research for an article on the artist Chaim Soutine and I just couldn’t let that one go.

  46. Danny Ray said on December 31st, 2008 at 9:31pm #

    Its cool, anyone who can teach me something is my friend, happy new year, Tree, Hue and Bozh and Shabnam :)

  47. Hue Longer said on December 31st, 2008 at 11:10pm #

    You too, Mate

  48. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 8:58am #

    bozh
    Yes, the invasion of Iraq was about bases and oil. The conflation that some have used is that a) the US had no reason to control Iraq oil or access to oil in the ME b) US went into Iraq at the behest of Israel thr0ugh proxy neocons.

    The argument continues to conflate Chomsky’s remarks about the influence AIPAC has on US ME policy. His quarrel seems some what erudite and has more to do with the scholarship details of The writers Stephen M. Walt and John J. Mearsheimer. I don’t know Chomsky’s motives and think it a red herring on all sides to be rasing it as a REASON for anything. What Chomsky thinks or argues about a report has NOTHING to do with a) and b) above – it is a conflation to serve some other ends. Poor analytical thinking that leads to a distortion of the facts.

  49. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 9:11am #

    To complete the above thought; there are two issues which are not significantly linked, if at all: US invasion of Iraq and the pathological Israel Zionists.

    It is more than clear the US has a relationship with Israel. Both that relationship and Israel are pathological and should be viewed from that perspective – this is not purely a plutocratic US empire relationship.

    But to Iraq, the US invaded Iraq in 1990 (Bush I). The invasion became one of lower intensity with a mix of air raids and a massive embargo that killed as many, if not more than the actual military invasions. This continued thru Clinton’s administration and was escalated under Bush. Had the US not invaded Iraq in 1990, one could reasonable speculate we would not be there today.

    The move into Iraq in 1990 was a knee jerk reaction to Saddam’s moves in Kuwait. Saddam was then a client of the US, fully stocked with US militaTry hardware. That invasion was clearly an invasion by the US plutocrats as action on behalf of the US imperial empire. The continuation of activities in Iraq are (though botched) clearly actions by the US Imperial Empire – NOT Israel. If Israel gains for loses is immaterial as far as the Empire is concerned.

    Israel is a pathology. It kills to exists. Sartre would have a field day with this existential cancer in the ME. Israel: that’s one sick puppy and the US has a pathological relationship with this sicko. My sense, and I may be wrong, is that that relationship has had its US imperial empire value, but as of late it is totally pathological. There is no upside for the US with regards to much of what this alien “nation” does.

    As far as Vietnam, I see no positive outcome in the US’s invasion from the perspective of the US plutocracy. Today, it could be argued would be what it is even if the Vietnam “war” had never happened.

  50. UNK said on January 1st, 2009 at 9:28am #

    Shabnam, I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you are an Arab? That is the only reason you could possibly be against an independent Kurdistan. One only needs to spend a little time in Northern Iraq (Kurdistan) and then spend a little time in southern Iraq, to see that the Kurds clearly deserve to have their own country. You accuse them of being spies against the Arabs. Well, the Arabs gassed and murdered them by the millions, so that wouldn’t surprise me.

    Iraqis have squandered their opportunity (a horrible war can be an oppurtunity to do something good) while the Kurds have a peaceful, developing nation. Why should the US force two ethnic groups who hate each other, and have a long history of killing each other, live in one country?

    By the way, the official policy still is, and looks to remain “one Iraq.” The Kurds will break away once the US leaves, with or without their permission.

  51. bozh said on January 1st, 2009 at 9:47am #

    max,
    possibly, US- since it shops for and buys govts- have used isr and isr let self be used or isr was using US to wear dwn arab lands so as to get them on board.
    and it had happened; most arab lands have been bought. just ab everybody who followed the sit’n in ME, knew it is over for pals.
    everybody knew or ought to have known that isr is de facto 51st US state.

    and nobody takes on US w. a war. so, there is linkage or even unison: expansion by isr is expansion by US which is strongly, imo, linked w. euro imperialism, or as i like to say, theft of more land.
    more govts bought, etc.,

  52. Max Shields said on January 1st, 2009 at 9:49am #

    The Kurds may have Turkey to contend with.

    Personally, I think entities should separate. I think the South should have separated from the North in the US. I think the province of Quebec should separate from Canada and Tibet from China. Basques from Spain, and so forth and so on.

    Holding on to populations and land mass is done primarily for hegemonic reasons.

    Is there a particular pre-condition which determines the legitamacy of separation? I don’t think it is black and white. An entity grows to some size and their are regional, cultural, linguistic differences that materialize that these difference create a fully developed (thought arrested in part) distinct character and the desire is to fully realize that potential as a separate entity. I believe it was Norway and Sweden who were once one entity and separated – relatively peacefully.

    Nation-states are not particularly natural and they have amassed power in ways that create conflict on ever larger scales. I would add that in a perfect world entities would break away peacefully and the “borders” would remain, but porous so as not to impede the migration of peoples across the globe. All would be a great commons. Settlements would occur, naturally, but the land and resources would be common “property”; like one massive Community Land Trusts.

  53. bozh said on January 1st, 2009 at 10:02am #

    UNK, yes
    shabnam is wrong in denying kurds a country of their own. afaik, iraq had gassed a few thousands kurd villagers and not mns.

    i’d like to see almost all empires give up on controling peoples who want a self rule or even independence.

    enough of this butchery. let people like assamis, turkmen/tibetans of china, waziristanis, baluchistanis, kashmiri, kurds govern selves. thnx

    it ought to be noted that as long US/Eruo/isr insist on butchery and bestiality to expand it’s likely the evil empires will listen to reason. thnx

  54. Danny Ray said on January 1st, 2009 at 11:12am #

    Bozh,

    As an American warrior I have been accused of many things, but Bestiality is a first. Altho we did have a bunch of New Zelanders stationed near us who were on a first name basis with all the local sheep.

  55. bozh said on January 1st, 2009 at 12:09pm #

    danny rayo,
    i did not say danny had perped bestiality. guilt of USans is stratified. as a soldier in iq/afgh u’r a lot more guilty than a hobo but a lot more innocent than a few mns of amers.
    some 200 mns of amers r less guilty of US/isr bestiality than the top echelon of ab 2-5 mn people.
    sorry if my use o fthe word “bestiality” has hurt u.
    and if u indeed believed that US is always right evenwhen killing civilians u have done what i wld have done had i been in ur shoes. thnx
    my deep apology to u.

  56. Danny Ray said on January 1st, 2009 at 12:21pm #

    Bozh,

    It is I who owe you an apology. I believe that the work you wanted to use was Brutality. I was making a poor attempt at humor. please look up Bestiality, As for killing and misuse of civilians it sickens me also.

    As for the guilt of the US being stratified I do not believe that either. we are all culpable.

    Please forgive me for making a such a poor joke.

    Danny

  57. Shabnam said on January 1st, 2009 at 2:35pm #

    For those who don’t know other nation’s history yet they enforce the Zionist’s plan for partition of the neighboring countries bigger than Israel in the Middle East, Africa and the Central Asia, one should refer them to ‘the battle of Chaldiran’ occurred on 23 August 1514. In this battle the empire of the time, Ottoman Empire attacked the Safavids, Iran, and as a result they partitioned and took over the north western part of Iran. This Iranian territory was taken from province of KURDISTAN which was part of Iran for thousands of years. Thus, for those who know nothing about the history of Iran I must say KURDISDAN that is part of Iraq and Turkey today, it was taken from province of KURDISTAN in IRAN due to better WMD possessed by the Ottoman empire. Otherwise Kurdistan would have been in one piece located in Iran. Please read the history.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chaldiran

    Therefore, if you want to divide countries, it is better to start from your place that you are sending post messages. The first you must do return part of the United States that you have stolen from Mexico and American Indians, the indigenous population, the Palestinian, the aborigines in Canada, Australia, New Zealand where many western countries have been erected by killing millions of people of the indigenous population in these regions and other places. You should return half of the United States where was taken by force from Mexico in the mid and end of the 19th century and then talk about partitioning of other ancient civilizations of world where people have lived together for thousands of years and have shared history. You should ask your fu**ing government to stop economic sanction and political pressure on targeted countries for strangulation purposes to create jobless and dissatisfy citizens, malnourished children, to undermine the country’s development so you can manipulate citizen of these countries for your political gains and regime change through partition and chaos to create NON ARAB entities as puppet ‘state’ to help the European settlers who have stolen land of Palestinian and have no right to be in our region. You have to read other people’s history to find out that you have illegally occupied these regions, from central Asia to Africa and by ‘divide and rule’ game have intension to partition our countries to steal our resources and control our markets. We never allow another Israel in our region. We never allow the same game be repeated to maintain your interest which has taken millions of innocent lives. What was the result of drawing the ‘middle east’ map in the early 20th century by the British Empire? Today, we are witness to many mini states in the Arab land where they can nothing to prevent the West robbing of their resources and domination over their land and markets. They can do nothing to protect their people. They can do nothing to prevent stealing of their land. Thus, the partition of Arab land by the fu**ing Europeans has brought nothing but benefits for the imperialist, Zionist and colonialist countries at the expense of the people of the region. Every single ‘Arab state’ is a fu**ing colony of the west. Qatar is under the boots of American soldiers and is the biggest American military base in the Persian Gulf. Of course, you should support such a robbery because it benefits you not the population of the region. Today, the Arab ‘states’ are at their weakest point where have been reduced to nothing and nothing but a puppet for the fu**inking ZIONIST INTEREST. Look at Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan where these countries act according to the Zionist war criminals against the interest of Palestinian people and the people of the region. The population of Arabs and other people of the region HATE this situation except the Kurds who are recognized as ‘another Israel’ by the people since Kurds are pro occupation of Iraq to expand their tribe, spying for the Zionists. Therefore, they have turned North of Iraq into a military base for Israel and the US. That’s why people of the region do not trust Kurds. People of the region are about to explode from the brutality of the west and its enablers.
    This picture benefits you but it produces million Iraqi deaths, thousand of Palestinian deaths, thousands of children who have been torn apart in pieces by your missiles. What is the gain out of partitioning of Arab land?
    http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/855/op1.htm
    Now, they want to implement the same policy to redraw the map of Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, Syria, Sudan and other places to protect the interest of Zionist state of Israel and the west. They want to create many mini ‘states’ that are weak, based on ethnic and religious divide to put one against the other and sell more garbage as WMD so they can kill each other to make the region more manageable and prevent the development of the region so they can control the resources and dominate the markets for generation to come. Who benefits? Of course you do. That’s why you do NOTHING and support this war crimes with your tax money and are so busy with your life style that have no time to read the history to come out of your ignorance not to write a statement such as the following:
    “It’s funny that it is ok for people to stone women to death for showing their hair in public, but the US waging a war against the people who made the WTC attacks possible is murder. “
    They want to partition Iran and other countries bigger than Israel to dominate the region and resources to create jobs for you as prison guard, so you can receive constant INCOME be able to make your behind bigger to reduce it later by going to different health centers to make the economy ‘active’ while others are shooting down children of the region because they are fed up with the status quo.
    Let me tell you, you cannot stop awakening of the people. You have a lot to learn before making a decision which country or which ancient civilization should be break to create puppet ‘states’ to benefit your interest to serve your life style . People of the region are against ANOTHER ISRAEL.
    http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/870/op1.htm

    While the European countries are joining together and forming a strong Union, the brutal west and their ignorant and arrogant population encourage support of thugs and opportunists, to give those military training and financial support to act as a proxy to create riot and chaos to break these countries apart. You will take this wish into your graves, one by one.

  58. Shabnam said on January 1st, 2009 at 2:36pm #

    For those who don’t know other nation’s history yet they enforce the Zionist’s plan for partition of the neighboring countries bigger than Israel in the Middle East, Africa and the Central Asia, one should refer them to ‘the battle of Chaldiran’ occurred on 23 August 1514. In this battle the empire of the time, Ottoman Empire attacked the Safavids, Iran, and as a result they partitioned and took over the north western part of Iran. This Iranian territory was taken from province of KURDISTAN which was part of Iran for thousands of years. Thus, for those who know nothing about the history of Iran I must say KURDISDAN that is part of Iraq and Turkey today, it was taken from province of KURDISTAN in IRAN due to better WMD possessed by the Ottoman empire. Otherwise Kurdistan would have been in one piece located in Iran. Please read the history.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chaldiran
    Therefore, if you want to divide countries, it is better to start from your place that you are sending post messages. The first you must do return part of the United States that you have stolen from Mexico and American Indians, the indigenous population, the Palestinian, the aborigines in Canada, Australia, New Zealand where many western countries have been erected by killing millions of people of the indigenous population in these regions and other places. You should return half of the United States where was taken by force from Mexico in the mid and end of the 19th century and then talk about partitioning of other ancient civilizations of world where people have lived together for thousands of years and have shared history. You should ask your fu**ing government to stop economic sanction and political pressure on targeted countries for strangulation purposes to create jobless and dissatisfy citizens, malnourished children, to undermine the country’s development so you can manipulate citizen of these countries for your political gains and regime change through partition and chaos to create NON ARAB entities as puppet ‘state’ to help the European settlers who have stolen land of Palestinian and have no right to be in our region. You have to read other people’s history to find out that you have illegally occupied these regions, from central Asia to Africa and by ‘divide and rule’ game have intension to partition our countries to steal our resources and control our markets. We never allow another Israel in our region. We never allow the same game be repeated to maintain your interest which has taken millions of innocent lives. What was the result of drawing the ‘middle east’ map in the early 20th century by the British Empire? Today, we are witness to many mini states in the Arab land where they can nothing to prevent the West robbing of their resources and domination over their land and markets. They can do nothing to protect their people. They can do nothing to prevent stealing of their land. Thus, the partition of Arab land by the fu**ing Europeans has brought nothing but benefits for the imperialist, Zionist and colonialist countries at the expense of the people of the region. Every single ‘Arab state’ is a fu**ing colony of the west. Qatar is under the boots of American soldiers and is the biggest American military base in the Persian Gulf. Of course, you should support such a robbery because it benefits you not the population of the region. Today, the Arab ‘states’ are at their weakest point where have been reduced to nothing and nothing but a puppet for the fu**inking ZIONIST INTEREST. Look at Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan where these countries act according to the Zionist war criminals against the interest of Palestinian people and the people of the region. The population of Arabs and other people of the region HATE this situation except the Kurds who are recognized as ‘another Israel’ by the people since Kurds are pro occupation of Iraq to expand their tribe, spying for the Zionists. Therefore, they have turned North of Iraq into a military base for Israel and the US. That’s why people of the region do not trust Kurds. People of the region are about to explode from the brutality of the west and its enablers.
    This picture benefits you but it produces million Iraqi deaths, thousand of Palestinian deaths, thousands of children who have been torn apart in pieces by your missiles. What is the gain out of partitioning of Arab land?
    Now, they want to implement the same policy to redraw the map of Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, Syria, Sudan and other places to protect the interest of Zionist state of Israel and the west. They want to create many mini ‘states’ that are weak, based on ethnic and religious divide to put one against the other and sell more garbage as WMD so they can kill each other to make the region more manageable and prevent the development of the region so they can control the resources and dominate the markets for generation to come. Who benefits? Of course you do. That’s why you do NOTHING and support this war crimes with your tax money and are so busy with your life style that have no time to read the history to come out of your ignorance not to write a statement such as the following:
    “It’s funny that it is ok for people to stone women to death for showing their hair in public, but the US waging a war against the people who made the WTC attacks possible is murder. “
    They want to partition Iran and other countries bigger than Israel to dominate the region and resources to create jobs for you as prison guard, so you can receive constant INCOME be able to make your behind bigger to reduce it later by going to different health centers to make the economy ‘active’ while others are shooting down children of the region because they are fed up with the status quo.
    Let me tell you, you cannot stop awakening of the people. You have a lot to learn before making a decision which country or which ancient civilization should be break to create puppet ‘states’ to benefit your interest to serve your life style . People of the region are against ANOTHER ISRAEL. While the European countries are joining together and forming a strong Union, the brutal west and their ignorant and arrogant population encourage support of thugs and opportunists, to give those military training and financial support to act as a proxy to create riot and chaos to break these countries apart. You will take this wish into your graves, one by one.

  59. Shabnam said on January 1st, 2009 at 2:38pm #

    Who wants another Israel?
    http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/870/op1.htm

  60. Danny Ray said on January 1st, 2009 at 3:32pm #

    Christ Shabnam, Don’t hold back tell us what you really think.

  61. bozh said on January 1st, 2009 at 3:43pm #

    here may be ab 16mn kurds in turkey. they r in turkey because they had been conquered. they, afaik, want independence. they deserve it.
    in a large chunk of e. turkey,they comprise btw 75-100% of the pop.

    in iraq they nuber ab 5mn and in iran ab 7mn. in much of n. iraq they comprise ab 75-100 % of the pop.

    now, much depends on US/euro whether kurds obtain a state of their own in the three countries (or vil emps) whether most kurds r gathered in one state.

    it wld not surprise me if iraqi kurds collabaorated even with the israelis.
    during ww2 slovenia, croatia, serbia, latvia, estonia, slovakia, norway an dlituania have aligned w. nazi germnay to obtain independence.

    so it can be expected that kurds w;ld aling w. the devil to finally obtain self rule.

    US cannot be apportioned; there is no more indigenes to whom to allot areas to.
    but lakotas r seeking self-rule and i hope they get it. but first they must obtain WMD.

    let’s face, at present panhuman developement, there is nothing wrong w. natch ethnocentricism. but once a people begin to slaughter/enserf- a people- as an adsmixture of peoples like the nonshemitic peoples does to pals- then i wld not give them that right. thnx

  62. bozh said on January 1st, 2009 at 5:41pm #

    shabnam,
    i do not know what attitude iranian kurds have towards iran. if they r treated well and they like to remain in iran that’s fine w. me
    i do not wish US break this empire.
    but we all know that iraqi kurds want at least a confederate state or self rule.
    kurds cannot get along w. iraqis. however, US may break the evil empire (all empires r evil) in three or four parts.

    i do not know if u have supported sunni rule over the other two folks; the rule bringing hell for all iraqis.
    u may be an irani; u seem to think that shias in iran have the right to govern iran.

    that’s wrong. the first thing to do when even two people r fighting one another is for bystanders to tear the fighters apart and let them cool it.
    same applies for kurds and sunnis of iraq; set both peoples free and then help them to talk.

    ur stance is to keep’em fighting and fighting; hating and hating. why?
    can’t sunnis live in peace by selves. why must they oppress others?
    so, sunnis of iraq r not that much better than what euros were in americas, asia, and africa.
    kill, kill; oppress,oppress; just to assuage their inferiority complex or to feel superior.
    and if u rant as u do i don’t think any of us is gonna read the nonsense u so profusely spit out. thnx

  63. Danny Ray said on January 1st, 2009 at 5:55pm #

    Excellent Bozh

  64. Shabnam said on January 1st, 2009 at 5:56pm #

    You lack necessary knowledge of history of our region to make a judgment. Your statistics are all wrong. The population of Kurds in Iran is about 4 m and Kurds in Iraq are less than 25 percent of the population. Kurds were killing the indigenous Arabs, Turkmens and Christians after the invasion of war criminals to expand their tribe in the north. They have forced a lot of Arabs and Turkmens out of their homes at gun point, like Israeli, and they have sold the land taken from the indigenous population to their master Zionists to expand Israel influence in Iraq, planning to control the Iraqi oil to support Israel’s energy requirement for its expansion until Israel reaches its ultimate goal of world domination. We never allow ANOTHER ISRAEL in our region. Why don’t you get your behind out of the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, South Africa, and Palestine to set free the indigenous population of these regions? Kurdistan is part of Iran for thousands of years. You do not belong to the place you have settled down. You are a settler and remain as such. Stop economic sanction to bring poverty and destitute to these regions and countries in order to fuel crisis and then use opportunists to spy for you and put their language skill at your service so you can kill them at ease to steal their land and resources. If we were doing what you are doing now meaning arming the indigenous population of Americas you will see that each countries that you have settled in will break into hundred pieces and the indigenous population will demand their return of their land where have been stolen 400 years ago. Then please stop constructing phony minority/majority for our region to engineer ‘crisis’ to put one against the other to serve your fu**ing game.
    Meanwhile, you should bring your government down since they are accomplice in the Zionist war crimes against Palestinian. The Zionists have NO RIGHTS TO BE IN OUR REGION. Down with Zionism and their supporters.
    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=2859

  65. Gideon said on January 11th, 2009 at 8:15pm #

    Are we talking about the same Gaza that Israel left two years ago?
    What occupation?

    The Hamas military combatants, security forces and politicians all look well fed. Who is stealing all the humanitarian supplies the free world is sending there?

    Were are all these “leaders” of the people? Damascus or Cairo? Maybe hiding in the basement of local hospital? This human shield is really working for Hamas!
    Check out PERFIDY – it’s a violation of a Geneva convention. Hamas is performing crimes against humanity against its own civil population.

    Hamas is sending its poor youth to martyrdom homicide missions and is using human shield casualties as PR chips.

    Hamas has an obligation to Gaza people ,who elected them, to improve their lives. Does anybody believe that Hamas delivered? Feeding definitely counts as a basic priority. Let me see: Rockets or food? Tough choice!

    Well not to worry, after Hamas regime took power, there will never be another democratic elections in Gaza. See what they have done to their brothers from Fatah/PLO – street executions.

    With power to govern comes responsibility and accountability. Hamas failed Gazans on both counts.

    Show me the money! Let’s see how Palestinians can transform Gaza to the Riviera of the Mediterranean it can be. Let’s see the Dubai model at work! That would impress the Gazans, Israelis and whole World!

  66. ronald mcdonald said on January 11th, 2009 at 10:04pm #

    hamas are just a bunch of gun-toting thugs terrorising their own people

  67. Gideon said on January 12th, 2009 at 12:40pm #

    “Hamas raids aid trucks, sells supplies to the highest Bidders”
    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1231424932109

    So that’s how Hamas social network operates!

    What about those starving children?

  68. bozh said on January 12th, 2009 at 1:04pm #

    gideon,
    yes, palestinians protect their protectors. and there is more of these protectors than ever before.
    so, ashkenazic master folk over shemites but also over mizrahim/sephardim have not achieved yet peace nor a country of their own.
    the ashkenazic volk (most of them being of german/russian ancestry) are oppressing jews and shemites. sephardic/mizrahic folk may also be shemitic.
    and that’s why the nonshemitic people, the ashkenazim, abhor all shemites; commiting unheard of crimes against them.
    but shemites are still i palestine and after 60 yrs of oppression they are still there while most ashkenazim are in US and europe making lotsof money and enjoying life. thnx

  69. mebosa ritchie said on January 12th, 2009 at 1:24pm #

    bozh,never mind all the rubbish you have just spouted about shemites and shites etc
    address the issue of hamas thugs robbing aid meant for sick children and women of course
    it is disguting and indefensible
    hamas use women and children and civilians and don’t care about the palestinians

    Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.
    Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.
    Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.

    Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.

  70. Joe K. said on January 13th, 2009 at 3:46am #

    It’ll be interesting if the aid truck story doesn’t turn out to be a complete fabrication. The Jerusalem Post story refers to it one at the beginning, provides no coroboration, and never mentions it again.

    ‘Hamas on Monday raided some 100 aid trucks that Israel had allowed into Gaza, stole their contents and sold them to the highest bidders.

    ‘The IDF said that since terminal activity is coordinated with UNRWA and the Red Cross, Israel could do nothing to prevent such raids, Israel Radio reported. ‘

    Yeah. If *only* they could have done something! But there was nothing *to* be done, sadly, it all happened so fast… :rolleyes: