Comments on: The Failed Logic of Supporting the Troops http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:07:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Mg http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-34856 Mg Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:07:45 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-34856 I make no attempt to defend the morality of my veteran status. I'm just willing to suspend my ethics for enough pay and benefits. What I do contest, however, is how you are able to criticize the contribution DoD employees to the war effort, 90% of which have very minor supporting roles in the overall war, yet are able to absolve yourself of all guilt as a source of funding for the war. Presumably you pay taxes. If you expect DoD personnel to willingly become criminals in order to avoid contributing, then you can expect no less from tax-paying civilians. In fact, I suspect my role in all this is actually detrimental to the war. With my salary/benefits, cost of school/training, and low work production, I believe I actually place a damper on the DoD's ability to wage war, whereas the contribution of the taxpayer to the war effort is always positive. I make no attempt to defend the morality of my veteran status. I’m just willing to suspend my ethics for enough pay and benefits.

What I do contest, however, is how you are able to criticize the contribution DoD employees to the war effort, 90% of which have very minor supporting roles in the overall war, yet are able to absolve yourself of all guilt as a source of funding for the war. Presumably you pay taxes. If you expect DoD personnel to willingly become criminals in order to avoid contributing, then you can expect no less from tax-paying civilians.

In fact, I suspect my role in all this is actually detrimental to the war. With my salary/benefits, cost of school/training, and low work production, I believe I actually place a damper on the DoD’s ability to wage war, whereas the contribution of the taxpayer to the war effort is always positive.

]]> By: Hue Longer http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33868 Hue Longer Wed, 17 Dec 2008 06:53:56 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33868 Danny, Sorry I insinuated that you may go ad hominem with Shabnam's link...I hope you enjoy the research from the link he provided (although "enjoy" isn't the word I'd describe what I went through with similar catalysts-- and what I assume you'll too hopefully go through---with me, I'd have called it anger). Though I addressed it to someone else, you'd get a good feel for the US soldiers who DID go against all odds if you check out Fagen and Riley. They made a dressed down movie about Riley, but they will NEVER touch Fagen--- That would beat 300, though the ending would be much sadder Danny,

Sorry I insinuated that you may go ad hominem with Shabnam’s link…I hope you enjoy the research from the link he provided (although “enjoy” isn’t the word I’d describe what I went through with similar catalysts– and what I assume you’ll too hopefully go through—with me, I’d have called it anger).

Though I addressed it to someone else, you’d get a good feel for the US soldiers who DID go against all odds if you check out Fagen and Riley. They made a dressed down movie about Riley, but they will NEVER touch Fagen— That would beat 300, though the ending would be much sadder

]]> By: HR http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33851 HR Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:57:15 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33851 Danny Ray, I repeat, there are all kinds of conditioning. When a person finally wakes up to that fact, they finally begin to see the world as it is. For some, it is the awareness that they have been a walking, talking recruitment ad. Danny Ray, I repeat, there are all kinds of conditioning. When a person finally wakes up to that fact, they finally begin to see the world as it is. For some, it is the awareness that they have been a walking, talking recruitment ad.

]]> By: Danny Ray http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33850 Danny Ray Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:32:17 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33850 And as far as who will reduce America to just another place, My guess is that you will And as far as who will reduce America to just another place, My guess is that you will

]]> By: Danny Ray http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33849 Danny Ray Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:29:38 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33849 HR, all I can say to you is, Si vis pacem, para bellum HR, all I can say to you is, Si vis pacem, para bellum

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33848 Max Shields Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:26:19 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33848 Actually, HR, when I wrote the word "warrior" I was think about a book by Barbara Ehrenreich "Blood Rites, Origins and History of the Passions of War". In that book she describes the rituals leading to war. These rituals, she claims, have been with us since warring began, and she regularly refers to the combatants, those who are put through the ritual of war making and then go out and kill, as warriors. You may be interested in reading it. I don't think she was under any brainwashing at the time she did her research. Seemed very insightful to me...and so it seemed rather useful to use the word warrior above. Here if you care to read the ebook version: http://books.google.com/books?id=C2GM_xXM3pYC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=Barbara+Ehrenreich+warrior&source=bl&ots=9yg7ItNQvJ&sig=x4m7ZKnPsRTX7Xg7u4E2prCzcWw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPP1,M1 Actually, HR, when I wrote the word “warrior” I was think about a book
by Barbara Ehrenreich “Blood Rites, Origins and History of the Passions of War”. In that book she describes the rituals leading to war. These rituals, she claims, have been with us since warring began, and she regularly refers to the combatants, those who are put through the ritual of war making and then go out and kill, as warriors.

You may be interested in reading it. I don’t think she was under any brainwashing at the time she did her research. Seemed very insightful to me…and so it seemed rather useful to use the word warrior above.

Here if you care to read the ebook version:
http://books.google.com/books?id=C2GM_xXM3pYC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=Barbara+Ehrenreich+warrior&source=bl&ots=9yg7ItNQvJ&sig=x4m7ZKnPsRTX7Xg7u4E2prCzcWw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPP1,M1

]]> By: Michael Hureaux http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33847 Michael Hureaux Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:25:02 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33847 I'm not supporting the war, and the only way to support the troops is not to send them into an imperial war to begin with. I’m not supporting the war, and the only way to support the troops is not to send them into an imperial war to begin with.

]]> By: HR http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33846 HR Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:23:47 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33846 Max, because if you glamorize the killers, as you call them, by calling them "cool" names, showing them doing "cool" things, like driving tanks, more ignorant youngsters get suckered in to do the killing. In the "end", as you put it, I want that to stop. Stopping the ads would be a major step in that direction. An even bigger one would be to cut the military budget by 90 percent. A defensive force, particularly one backed by thousands of nukes, is all this country needs to survive ... though world domination would become history. Max, because if you glamorize the killers, as you call them, by calling them “cool” names, showing them doing “cool” things, like driving tanks, more ignorant youngsters get suckered in to do the killing. In the “end”, as you put it, I want that to stop. Stopping the ads would be a major step in that direction. An even bigger one would be to cut the military budget by 90 percent. A defensive force, particularly one backed by thousands of nukes, is all this country needs to survive … though world domination would become history.

]]> By: HR http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33845 HR Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:22:09 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33845 Because if you glamorize the killers by calling them "cool" names, more ignorant youngsters get suckered in to do the killing. In the "end", as you put it, I want that to stop. Stopping the ads would be a major step in that direction. An even bigger one would be to cut the military budget by 90 percent. A defensive force, particularly one backed by thousands of nukes, is all this country needs to survive ... though world domination would become history. Because if you glamorize the killers by calling them “cool” names, more ignorant youngsters get suckered in to do the killing. In the “end”, as you put it, I want that to stop. Stopping the ads would be a major step in that direction. An even bigger one would be to cut the military budget by 90 percent. A defensive force, particularly one backed by thousands of nukes, is all this country needs to survive … though world domination would become history.

]]> By: HR http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33844 HR Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:07:13 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33844 Danny Ray, when was the last time the U.S. military went to battle with the odds 5 to 1 against it? Not in my 58 years. The U.S. has not been the underdog in a war since 1812, irrespective of the myth of how we were unprepared for WWII (a million and a half in uniform by the time of the Pearl Harbor bombing). The U.S. spends more on its annual military budget than almost all other other nations combined, and has done so for years. Just who is it that will reduce this country to, "Just another place?" Most people around the world would die to defend their country from invasion ... as Iraqis and Afghanis do on a daily basis. And most around the world, particularly those who have actually suffered the effects of brutal wars within their borders, want nothing more to do with it. As far as I can see, it's more greed and selfishness that has made this country what it is today than what you suggest. There are all kinds of conditioning in this world. Danny Ray, when was the last time the U.S. military went to battle with the odds 5 to 1 against it? Not in my 58 years. The U.S. has not been the underdog in a war since 1812, irrespective of the myth of how we were unprepared for WWII (a million and a half in uniform by the time of the Pearl Harbor bombing). The U.S. spends more on its annual military budget than almost all other other nations combined, and has done so for years.

Just who is it that will reduce this country to, “Just another place?” Most people around the world would die to defend their country from invasion … as Iraqis and Afghanis do on a daily basis. And most around the world, particularly those who have actually suffered the effects of brutal wars within their borders, want nothing more to do with it.

As far as I can see, it’s more greed and selfishness that has made this country what it is today than what you suggest. There are all kinds of conditioning in this world.

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33843 Max Shields Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:06:58 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33843 Than you didn't understand what I wrote. My point is that in the end...you do believe there is an end...this little talk about the use of the word warrior isn't going to matter a rat's ass. This country has been killing since its inception. So, you keep worrying about what we call the killers. I'll just stick to the facts. Than you didn’t understand what I wrote.

My point is that in the end…you do believe there is an end…this little talk about the use of the word warrior isn’t going to matter a rat’s ass.

This country has been killing since its inception. So, you keep worrying about what we call the killers. I’ll just stick to the facts.

]]> By: HR http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33842 HR Wed, 17 Dec 2008 02:39:49 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33842 I read your post, and I responded to it. Don't presume to define what will be relevant for me. The best conditioning is that which has its effect without the conditioned being aware of it. I read your post, and I responded to it. Don’t presume to define what will be relevant for me. The best conditioning is that which has its effect without the conditioned being aware of it.

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33841 Max Shields Wed, 17 Dec 2008 02:35:04 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33841 HR Read what I said in my post. I used the word warrior. No where did I glorify anything. Therefore it is irrelevant from my perspective. And someday it will be for you when this nonsense will seem pretty f&kn meaningless. HR

Read what I said in my post. I used the word warrior. No where did I glorify anything.

Therefore it is irrelevant from my perspective. And someday it will be for you when this nonsense will seem pretty f&kn meaningless.

]]> By: Danny Ray http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33840 Danny Ray Wed, 17 Dec 2008 02:33:09 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33840 Hue, I have looked at your Google search but I must say that Shabnam's sites were much more detailed. I have read them all but in all honesty I will say that before I form an opinion I need to do some research. I have gotten several books and will get back to you. HR You are right in your statement. The military started describing each other as warriors during the 90’s. During the 80’s many of the old traditions on the Army were brought back (Spurs and Stetsons for the Cav, along with yellow Garters for the wives) during the 90’s the army was reduced from 27 divisions to 9. We were now looking at five to one odds in most cases. To win a war like that you have to do something to build a sense of exceptionlism. Soldiers have always needed that. You do not win wars by being average. This is one reason that made the movie The 300 such a hit with the military. The thought that 300 almost supermen saved Europe from the hoards from the east. And whether you think we are dumb, deluded, or just plain stupid many of the army and marines today feel that we are doing just that. Many feel that Honor Loyalty Duty Sacrifice and Strength are what has made America what it is now and most of the military love this country deeply and would die before they saw it reduced to just another place. Hue,
I have looked at your Google search but I must say that Shabnam’s sites were much more detailed. I have read them all but in all honesty I will say that before I form an opinion I need to do some research. I have gotten several books and will get back to you.

HR
You are right in your statement. The military started describing each other as warriors during the 90’s. During the 80’s many of the old traditions on the Army were brought back (Spurs and Stetsons for the Cav, along with yellow Garters for the wives) during the 90’s the army was reduced from 27 divisions to 9. We were now looking at five to one odds in most cases. To win a war like that you have to do something to build a sense of exceptionlism. Soldiers have always needed that. You do not win wars by being average. This is one reason that made the movie The 300 such a hit with the military. The thought that 300 almost supermen saved Europe from the hoards from the east. And whether you think we are dumb, deluded, or just plain stupid many of the army and marines today feel that we are doing just that.

Many feel that Honor Loyalty Duty Sacrifice and Strength are what has made America what it is now and most of the military love this country deeply and would die before they saw it reduced to just another place.

]]> By: HR http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33839 HR Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:59:29 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33839 Actually, Max, it's quite on topic. Your response demonstrates just how conditioned this population has become to glorification of the military over the last 30 years. Since the Vietnam debacle, and its concomitant near-revolt within the military, leaders on both "left" and right have been outdoing each other to condition public respect and unquestioning adulation for a huge, unnecessary peacetime military, which they need for their objective of world domination. Use of the term warrior to describe members of the military is just part of that conditioning, along with going to war at every opportunity ... as long as the "enemy" is unable to fight back. The conditioning clearly has been successful. Actually, Max, it’s quite on topic. Your response demonstrates just how conditioned this population has become to glorification of the military over the last 30 years. Since the Vietnam debacle, and its concomitant near-revolt within the military, leaders on both “left” and right have been outdoing each other to condition public respect and unquestioning adulation for a huge, unnecessary peacetime military, which they need for their objective of world domination. Use of the term warrior to describe members of the military is just part of that conditioning, along with going to war at every opportunity … as long as the “enemy” is unable to fight back. The conditioning clearly has been successful.

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33838 Max Shields Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:45:18 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33838 Since I didn't use the word in the context you suggest Stewart, I think this is much ado about nothing. "Banning" or whatever was suggested, the use of the word warrior because some right-wingers have used in some "glorified" fashion will lead one to think, every time some right-winger decides to use a word we all have to "ban" its use. Sorry, unless someone can provide some "context" this is just waaaaaay off topic. Since I didn’t use the word in the context you suggest Stewart, I think this is much ado about nothing.

“Banning” or whatever was suggested, the use of the word warrior because some right-wingers have used in some “glorified” fashion will lead one to think, every time some right-winger decides to use a word we all have to “ban” its use.

Sorry, unless someone can provide some “context” this is just waaaaaay off topic.

]]> By: HR http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33836 HR Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:25:14 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33836 Max Shields, then why didn't we call them warriors up until the last few years? Never heard it once during the Vietnam years. Never heard it used to describe WWI and II military staff. It's strictly a PR play that I first heard in the sickening commercials put out by the war department. The term was used only to glorify military service, to appeal to the emotions (and meanheartedness) of a conditioned population, particularly the young. It has little to do with dictionary definitions. Max Shields, then why didn’t we call them warriors up until the last few years? Never heard it once during the Vietnam years. Never heard it used to describe WWI and II military staff. It’s strictly a PR play that I first heard in the sickening commercials put out by the war department. The term was used only to glorify military service, to appeal to the emotions (and meanheartedness) of a conditioned population, particularly the young. It has little to do with dictionary definitions.

]]> By: Stewart http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33835 Stewart Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:23:31 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33835 It is not the dictionary definition of "warrior" that glorifies the term, it is the context in which it has been used over countless centuries. Though many of us on this list wouldn't think highly of someone referred to as a "warrior", I agree with HR that, in our culture, the term "warrior" has tended to glorify people in a profession substantially defined by killing people. It is not the dictionary definition of “warrior” that glorifies the term, it is the context in which it has been used over countless centuries. Though many of us on this list wouldn’t think highly of someone referred to as a “warrior”, I agree with HR that, in our culture, the term “warrior” has tended to glorify people in a profession substantially defined by killing people.

]]> By: Danny Ray http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33833 Danny Ray Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:08:48 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33833 Hue, I have been to the web site and I got the book on the 53 coup Gasiorowski and Byrne I will start it this weekend. looks like a good read. Bozh, "but US had not attacked any of these evil empires; it attacks only the evil empires it doesn’t like. " Of course we attack empires we don't like, What kind of SOB's do you think we are? Only a real crap head would attack his friends. But it is a good thought, Think of the surprise value. We may have to add that to our book of tricks. I like the way you think!! We will make you a real Cripto Zionionaofashist before you know it. Hue, I have been to the web site and I got the book on the 53 coup Gasiorowski and Byrne I will start it this weekend. looks like a good read.

Bozh,
“but US had not attacked any of these evil empires; it attacks only the evil empires it doesn’t like. ”
Of course we attack empires we don’t like, What kind of SOB’s do you think we are? Only a real crap head would attack his friends. But it is a good thought, Think of the surprise value. We may have to add that to our book of tricks. I like the way you think!! We will make you a real Cripto Zionionaofashist before you know it.

]]> By: Hue Longer http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/the-failed-logic-of-supporting-the-troops/#comment-33829 Hue Longer Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:59:03 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5342#comment-33829 lol, thanks Shabnam, I spelled his name incorrectly three times now...maybe that's why Danny hasn't googled him up? I suggested a Google search over providing a link, because the natural reaction for the entrenched is to go ad hominem and attack the source....with a Google, you won't find one apologist capable of explaining away that coup. lol, thanks Shabnam,

I spelled his name incorrectly three times now…maybe that’s why Danny hasn’t googled him up?

I suggested a Google search over providing a link, because the natural reaction for the entrenched is to go ad hominem and attack the source….with a Google, you won’t find one apologist capable of explaining away that coup.

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