Comments on: Obama and the Middle East Oil War http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:07:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Don Hawkins http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/#comment-33702 Don Hawkins Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:45:17 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5308#comment-33702 Yes many Americans most Americans as on this path and that path is not working together but still this side or that side there will be two people working together say deep in the ground in Kansas. The key is working together and those two in Kansas have two key's that they turn together and the rest is academic. Yes many Americans most Americans as on this path and that path is not working together but still this side or that side there will be two people working together say deep in the ground in Kansas. The key is working together and those two in Kansas have two key’s that they turn together and the rest is academic.

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/#comment-33683 bozh Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:42:52 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5308#comment-33683 don, i too think that the warming may destroy much life on this planet. and i think that US is now waging all these wars because it also thinks like u do. however, it is unable/unwilling to control its greed; thus has chosen to wage wars for choicest regions of the planet such as siberia, polar, and subpolar areas. bns may fry in heat; while mns or even a bn settles in cooler areas. many amers might also be left behind and face slow/painful death. thnx don,
i too think that the warming may destroy much life on this planet. and i think that US is now waging all these wars because it also thinks like u do.
however, it is unable/unwilling to control its greed; thus has chosen to wage wars for choicest regions of the planet such as siberia, polar, and subpolar areas.
bns may fry in heat; while mns or even a bn settles in cooler areas.
many amers might also be left behind and face slow/painful death. thnx

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/#comment-33682 Max Shields Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:35:18 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5308#comment-33682 bozh I agree that the "economic system" is the foundation, the crux, the root cause of US foreign policy. Asking the new President to rejoin the community of nations, misses the point of American Empire. Joining such a community for the first time might be closer to a truth request. The US empire has only had tangential relations with this so-called community. A community that is in flux. I've never been a proponent of nation-states, and am very dubious about the notion of creating a union of such states. However, that is only because I don't believe that there should be a global governance in some kind of super-world federacy. That said, I find some real value in the Earth Charter, not as a "constitution for a world federacy" but as guiding principles which local and regional "entities" can sign-on to, as a basis for global solidarity. It is democratically principled and tuned to local place rather than some kind of armed "peace keeping" rule governing entity. But, again to the original topic: Obama is not about to change the economic system. He'll try, I suppose, to save it by making some adjustments - mostly retrofitting. It will never touch the empire's mission and so that mission will continue full force. It may crop up as humanitarian interventionism or as out and out occupation of one sort or another. Our understanding of what is happening today, regarding the economy rests on historical conjecture. I submit we are facing the unknown and that it is far deeper than the historical touchstone: Great Depression. US use of fossil was nothing compared to today; and the globalization of markets and finance was simply incomparable. That is what we are facing. Perhaps the greed factor crosses then and now, but the actual consequences are, I think, very different. This is a house of cards. It is collapsing. Obama will try to save it. War will continue to play a role because that is the single tool of Empire's choice as it has been for thousands of years. bozh

I agree that the “economic system” is the foundation, the crux, the root cause of US foreign policy.

Asking the new President to rejoin the community of nations, misses the point of American Empire. Joining such a community for the first time might be closer to a truth request. The US empire has only had tangential relations with this so-called community. A community that is in flux.

I’ve never been a proponent of nation-states, and am very dubious about the notion of creating a union of such states. However, that is only because I don’t believe that there should be a global governance in some kind of super-world federacy.

That said, I find some real value in the Earth Charter, not as a “constitution for a world federacy” but as guiding principles which local and regional “entities” can sign-on to, as a basis for global solidarity. It is democratically principled and tuned to local place rather than some kind of armed “peace keeping” rule governing entity.

But, again to the original topic: Obama is not about to change the economic system. He’ll try, I suppose, to save it by making some adjustments – mostly retrofitting. It will never touch the empire’s mission and so that mission will continue full force. It may crop up as humanitarian interventionism or as out and out occupation of one sort or another.

Our understanding of what is happening today, regarding the economy rests on historical conjecture. I submit we are facing the unknown and that it is far deeper than the historical touchstone: Great Depression. US use of fossil was nothing compared to today; and the globalization of markets and finance was simply incomparable. That is what we are facing. Perhaps the greed factor crosses then and now, but the actual consequences are, I think, very different.

This is a house of cards. It is collapsing. Obama will try to save it. War will continue to play a role because that is the single tool of Empire’s choice as it has been for thousands of years.

]]> By: Don Hawkins http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/#comment-33679 Don Hawkins Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:19:27 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5308#comment-33679 At the top of the Earth better known as the North Pole where Santa lives there are changes taking place right now that look to be to late to slow. The temperatures up there are a tad bit warm. As far as major changes to the climate weather when you melt the sea ice the oceans get warmer and those highs and lows you see on the weather channel change and not just change a little but change the weather in the Northern Hemisphere. Those major changes look to be about 5 to 7 years away. Still not to late to stop the oceans from turning yellowish green or sea level rise of 100 feet or more but must start now. Then of course there is that little problem of eating all the animals we can on planet Earth and the ones we don't eat we wear Trees are going bye bye because we use them to and now bugs are coming into play. Because of bugs in Canada the trees in many places are gone. What are we doing to slow this down in December of 2008 not much and why? One reason is because in order to slow climate change we human's need to slowdown ourselves and well tell that to GM or Exxon and see the answer you get. The next 8 months if nothing else will be fascinating to see. Think of this as kind of a war. At the top of the Earth better known as the North Pole where Santa lives there are changes taking place right now that look to be to late to slow. The temperatures up there are a tad bit warm. As far as major changes to the climate weather when you melt the sea ice the oceans get warmer and those highs and lows you see on the weather channel change and not just change a little but change the weather in the Northern Hemisphere. Those major changes look to be about 5 to 7 years away. Still not to late to stop the oceans from turning yellowish green or sea level rise of 100 feet or more but must start now. Then of course there is that little problem of eating all the animals we can on planet Earth and the ones we don’t eat we wear Trees are going bye bye because we use them to and now bugs are coming into play. Because of bugs in Canada the trees in many places are gone. What are we doing to slow this down in December of 2008 not much and why? One reason is because in order to slow climate change we human’s need to slowdown ourselves and well tell that to GM or Exxon and see the answer you get. The next 8 months if nothing else will be fascinating to see. Think of this as kind of a war.

]]> By: Don Hawkins http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/#comment-33656 Don Hawkins Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:24:17 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5308#comment-33656 In human history up to this point weather climate did cause changes to civilization. What is already underway human's have never seen and unless we move fast the changes will be unlike anything ever experienced. When most talk about this economic system or that and use history as a guide well that will not work anymore new rules. I must say it is driving a few mad but to say it is not happening because it is an inconvenient truth is far beyond stupid. There are a few systems human's have used for hundreds of years thousands but for human civilization to survive those systems must change and that includes the economic system a very big part. Are there any people right now who know this and are trying to get the word out? Yes a few and it is starting to work but still to slow. The few will start in just a few months to get the truth out will it be enough? Maybe if we all help. In human history up to this point weather climate did cause changes to civilization. What is already underway human’s have never seen and unless we move fast the changes will be unlike anything ever experienced. When most talk about this economic system or that and use history as a guide well that will not work anymore new rules. I must say it is driving a few mad but to say it is not happening because it is an inconvenient truth is far beyond stupid. There are a few systems human’s have used for hundreds of years thousands but for human civilization to survive those systems must change and that includes the economic system a very big part. Are there any people right now who know this and are trying to get the word out? Yes a few and it is starting to work but still to slow. The few will start in just a few months to get the truth out will it be enough? Maybe if we all help.

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/#comment-33642 bozh Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:39:37 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5308#comment-33642 max, it is possible that in '02 Obama did not espy the aims of yet another US invasion. we do not know all of the goals the planners/strategists of the invasion had in mind. it cldn't have been oil; it flowed freely and in sufficient amount. perhaps who was to make money out of sales of iraqi oil may have been one reason (reason, but not justification) for the invasion/occupation. thus, the only payout for that invasion, one can firmly conclude, wld be to establish some kind of permament US/UK/israel (or as long as needed) presence in iraq. another aim may have been to split iraq in 3+ parts. also knowing/believing what violence btwn the three peoples the invasion wld engender, may have been another reason that US invaded iraq. it was well known that saddam had to hold the grip on his evil empire by repression and murder. that is true of nearly all empires such as china, india, pakistan, russia, UK, france, et al. or, may one conclude that US war planners were just stupid? thnx max,
it is possible that in ’02 Obama did not espy the aims of yet another US invasion.
we do not know all of the goals the planners/strategists of the invasion had in mind.
it cldn’t have been oil; it flowed freely and in sufficient amount. perhaps who was to make money out of sales of iraqi oil may have been one reason (reason, but not justification) for the invasion/occupation.
thus, the only payout for that invasion, one can firmly conclude, wld be to establish some kind of permament US/UK/israel (or as long as needed) presence in iraq.
another aim may have been to split iraq in 3+ parts. also knowing/believing what violence btwn the three peoples the invasion wld engender, may have been another reason that US invaded iraq.
it was well known that saddam had to hold the grip on his evil empire by repression and murder.
that is true of nearly all empires such as china, india, pakistan, russia, UK, france, et al.
or, may one conclude that US war planners were just stupid? thnx

]]> By: Don Hawkins http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/#comment-33632 Don Hawkins Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:21:37 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5308#comment-33632 Whatever the system in this age it just maybe unplanned for many players looking for the answers. I could be wrong on the looking for answers part. Whatever the system in this age it just maybe unplanned for many players looking for the answers. I could be wrong on the looking for answers part.

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/#comment-33630 Max Shields Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:59:20 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5308#comment-33630 bozh, Obama as I understand his words was the "wrong" war. There seems to be no morality behind those words. It was simply a case of interventionism in the "wrong" place, at the "wrong" time. What's interesting is that Obama has enjoyed an "anti-war" support - by default rather than by standing for the most ardent advocate of peace while NEVER really conceding an "anti-war" position. During the primaries many saw him for what he was until the Dem crowd dwindled to him and Hillary. Once that happened, the stand off was minor, but he took some of the "out of Iraq" space while she stood behind a faux "worker" populist stance. All of this is simple campaign positioning and has nothing to do with principles or morality. The larger head to head with his opponent from the Repub was more of the same. Never were there core principles stands made outside of the simplistic time-worn parameters of the duopoly conversation - which means there were NO meaningful debates and for the most part each were clueless about the economy as it melted before our eyes. We have a tired old (very very old) president to be. He represents nothing new. He could be 5 years old and he would still be an old time crony Dem. Nothing more nor less. None of us know the future. What appears before us seems only slightly like the past as the empire unravels, but it appears it will be treated to more of the same that got us here. bozh,
Obama as I understand his words was the “wrong” war. There seems to be no morality behind those words. It was simply a case of interventionism in the “wrong” place, at the “wrong” time.

What’s interesting is that Obama has enjoyed an “anti-war” support – by default rather than by standing for the most ardent advocate of peace while NEVER really conceding an “anti-war” position.

During the primaries many saw him for what he was until the Dem crowd dwindled to him and Hillary. Once that happened, the stand off was minor, but he took some of the “out of Iraq” space while she stood behind a faux “worker” populist stance.

All of this is simple campaign positioning and has nothing to do with principles or morality. The larger head to head with his opponent from the Repub was more of the same. Never were there core principles stands made outside of the simplistic time-worn parameters of the duopoly conversation – which means there were NO meaningful debates and for the most part each were clueless about the economy as it melted before our eyes.

We have a tired old (very very old) president to be. He represents nothing new. He could be 5 years old and he would still be an old time crony Dem. Nothing more nor less.

None of us know the future. What appears before us seems only slightly like the past as the empire unravels, but it appears it will be treated to more of the same that got us here.

]]> By: bozh http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/obama-and-the-middle-east-oil-war/#comment-33627 bozh Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:37:27 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=5308#comment-33627 to me, it is more, much more important to find out why Obama was in '03 against US invasion of iraq than that he opposed it. in other words, did he oppose the invasion based on a principle or on an ad hoc reason? i opposed US invasion of iraw on desirable and necessary truth that no land has the right to attack any other land under any known circumstance. if any land had to be attacked, it wld have been US for its use of Abombs since no other land has to date commited such a crime against mostly civilians. thnx to me, it is more, much more important to find out why Obama was in ’03 against US invasion of iraq than that he opposed it.
in other words, did he oppose the invasion based on a principle or on an ad hoc reason?
i opposed US invasion of iraw on desirable and necessary truth that no land has the right to attack any other land under any known circumstance.
if any land had to be attacked, it wld have been US for its use of Abombs since no other land has to date commited such a crime against mostly civilians. thnx

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