Sorry Cheif but the top two quotes are not mine but someone named Ray. I would never spell my contries name with a K.

The bottom is mine and I still stand by it. however you did not include the part where i said that me and mine would already be out to stop the invasion. i als stand by what I said in the first of your post in this artical, that the American people could not care less about your poor Arab brothers.

And again I love everyone in the mid east except Arabs. whats wrong with that, you seem to hate all Americans.

Along with that you do not know me. but you read what you want to into my writings and call me a bigot and say that I have no concept of history.

Neither do I think Iraq’s democracy will last for very long. The nation was only barely held together by Saddam who, though brutal, was quite a bit more effective than our government. That war just seems pointless to me. It was likely a crime by US laws if not by the basis for international law we ourselves set at the Nuremberg trials. Afghanistan was the place on which we needed to focus only in so much as it took to eradicate the upper side of the Al Qaeda organization. Now, with Pakistan looking close to disintegration, Russian hostilities, and obvious loss of the Khyber Pass, it looks increasingly like we will lose that region due to the lack of supply lines. We had a chance for all these years to just destroy Al Qeada and we did not complete that task. Nobody should ever delusion themselves into thinking a foreign power can occupy and pacify that place. It has been a pit that swallows conquerers since before even Alexander walked through.

The idea that you can invade a region and force a democracy on people is so ridiculous that it defies rationality. I can point all the way back the Delios leagueto find examples where democracies that begin imposing democracy on other people find themselves in increasingly risky expeditions while all of their conquests tend to dissolve back to their original governmental forms or spark and finally find a new equilibrium as something entirely different. You are effectively approaching a complex system, that you do not understand, breaking it apart, and then rearranging the pieces with the expectation that it will take a new *expected* form. It is like waving your hand at a smoke cloud and expecting it to form the shape of Mickey Mouse.

The more people go in there and absorb themselves into the task of reshaping that region, society, politics, and culture, the less they are able to disconnect themselves from the mess and see how much chaos they continue to produce. We have been watching this same story happen over and over since our nation emerged from the second world war. I am not saying that isolationism, as people understood it before that war, is a good idea. But trying to reshape the world into our own image is nothing but maniacal and hubris.

However, at the same time, to cast a simplistic narrative as to how Americans fall into right or left, how one side caused all the problems and the other side sees all the answers, is not going to help any of us. Yes, the American right really went much too far. But democrats have their own ideas of wars and reshaping people. I have seen people who marched in the streets over these right wing wars talk hawkish about Africa. As if the middle east was not enough to teach people a lesson, they want a new conquest for their ideas of how to shape the world in a place far more dangerous. This extreme ideological behavior has been going on for so long, nobody remembers what it was like before, because most of the people alive then are dead now. Even when the world fought overtly for power and empire rather than political and economic ideals themselves, there was not so much violence. It is so easy to sit far removed in America and not think about the reality of the last century in terms of blood. It was the worst century of warfare in human history and it is all being renewed once again.

I am not saying this is the one cause of war or even the biggest. I am saying it is the most dangerous for us *right now*. The world is descending into an economic crisis just as world powers are becoming more hostile. Every major government in the world needs to go into serious deficit spending to induce massive production spikes. You *do not* want that production to be tanks, warships, fighters, and bombers. If you think we are too powerful to be brought down, consider America had virtually no military might going into 1941.

Back to topic,

Danny, please Google “Iran Mossedeq 1953″—It’s sure to get you a variety of sources on an inarguable event where the USA overthrew a democratically elected leader who had the audacity to nationalize his country’s resources.

This speaks directly to your last paragraph and your earlier assertions regarding Iran. This could be one of those moments you wish you hadn’t went looking but you won’t be alone when you come out the other side.

Cheers

“I guess what I am trying to say that if I hated everyone in the middle east I would not give a damn or a drop of mine or my peoples blood to try to build something wonderful for the people there.”

How does racist and ignorant one must get before people make a choice to say ” ignore him.” I did not say we should censor him. I am against that. However, I wrote: “Please, no one pays any attention to Danny Ray because he has No knowledge of history and writes his rubbish based on lies and deceptions” and I am going to exactly that no matter what you or anyone else choose to do . Please look at his past interaction with others:
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/12/mumbai-and-american-terror/
Ray said on December 4th, 2008 at 1:20am #
Responding to Joed, who wrote: “seems those people that are continually being opressed have every right to do anything to stop their being opressed–anything. violence is justified sometimes. …
there is no moral justification for the invasion of iraq by amerika. there is moral justifaction for the opressed peoples to fight back as they can. ”
If the Iraqis had stood up to Saddam Hussein, would you have supported their right to do so? And why didn’t they? For decades, Iraqis suffered under Saddam. The man was an evil butcher and his two sons (destined to succeed him) were even worse!

Hue Longer said on December 6th, 2008 at 3:58pm #
Ray,
You are one to look to Hollywood because you just did, but more important is that Hollywood looks to you. George Lucas?!
I don’t think the Iraqis appreciate what you eat popcorn to…
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/11/the-mumbai-massacres-as-the-defeat-of-counter-terrorism/

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/11/western-progressive-opinion-bring-on-the-victims-condemn-the-fighters/

Danny Ray said on November 24th, 2008 at 4:52pm #
To bring this home: if a foreign (or domestic!) army ever rolled into my neighborhood the first doors I would knock on would be my heavily armed Christian Republican neighbors. A resistance needs guns and people that are willing and able to use them. A people under occupation often find unlikely solidarity with one another.
Mr. Blackwell, please please tell me that the above was a joke.
Number one, after 30 years of being called the redneck lunatic Christian fringe, and we have been called Neanderthals, and told how we are paranoid, schizophrenic, delusion or all of the above. After 30 to 40 are even 50 years of being demonized by the left. You are going to tell me that you would run to my front door and asked me to help defend your rights.

good luck

You said also that at least I do not hate everyone in the mid east. I love the kurds and like most of the shia I have met. The Iranians I have met have been some of the most wonderful people in the world. In Afganistan I have enjoyed working with both Puston groups the Durrani and the Ghilzai, And the Tajik Are great fighters and have hands down the best looking women in the world. Up in the old Russian republics I have never had anything other than a warm welcome from any of them.

Also I did not mean the comments about Iraqi Oil to be patronizing I was making a point that this is unlike the old days. there are no backwards people in the world. you can’t cheat anyone out of oil any more. every one knows its worth. We can’t and should not cheat anyone out of anything. The point I was trying so poorly to make is that the left talks like we are stealing their oil at gun point. I have a friend who works in the oil ministry and I can promis you there are tight controls on it.

As far as Bozh, I have no facts other than the belief in my heart that our presents there stablizes the reigon so that a decent form of goverment can take root. That if we leave an islamic republic will be established in no time. and we know that freedon cannot exist an atmosphere of religious intolerence. we have to keep a sharp watch on the religious zealots in America and it is the same everywhere.

First, Danny shouldn’t be ignored–he’s not full of shit when he notices that the the Democrats (and unfortunately truer leftists) have left him and his behind, and just because his history isn’t on par with the average DV reader, doesn’t mean it’s any worse than that of all the good Americans who voted for Obama–you know, those folks we bother talking to in attempts to educate.

Also, I highly doubt Danny would see it differently if Israel wasn’t behind the scenes in whatever capacity it may be.

He says some shocking stuff but at least he’s actually saying it and it’s a point to start from…

Obama in the office. Yinon’s paper leaves one in no doubt that the Zionist movement approaches the Arab East — Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq — differently from the rest of the Arab and Islamic world. It is about geographical expansion within that area.

http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0005345.html
The Zionists want to seize and colonize more land in the Arab East as a prelude to annexing that land to the Jewish state. They want to partition most of the regional states to many mini states for the “greater Israel” mistakenly famous as “the greater Middle East” where I am sure they will take this wish into their fucking graves, ONE BY ONE. Israelis are spying on Arabs through north of Iraq, Kurdistan, for more than 50 years and now north of Iraq is nothing but a spy network and military training for the Kurdish terrorists, Pejak, who are trained by the fascist Zionist to be sent to the neighboring country to commit terrorist acts to destabilize the region for further partition. As we know the partition of Iraq was penned by Leslie Gelb, a Zionist, at the Council on Foreign Relations and brought to the senate by the self claimed Zionist, Joe Biden supported by the slave of zionism, Hillary Clinton, the sectary of state of Obama, a slave of zionofascists. People should not pay any attention to this reactionary person.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2007/855/op1.htm

Straw man–I don’t see the people of Iraq as poor primitive devils or poor heathen devils (although with your further patronizing comments, it does seem that you do)

I don’t care how many US Americans have come to your same conclusion that we are there to make a difference (positive I’ll assume), I think it’s a mixture of reasons that don’t benefit the Iraqi people or you and oil is certainly involved on more than the level of outright stealing it for its own reward.

I’m glad you got to play with the kids and that you don’t hate everyone over there.

It certainly IS our problem because we keep doing it to them. The “it” is what so many US military can’t see while they are doing it as well as the earlier more benign attacks against these peoples through hegemony.

I hesitate to say this because I don’t want to lend you credit to the idea that there is any benevolence involved with what the US is doing to anyone in the world, but killing, maiming and starving millions of people is not the way to spread Democracy. You brought up Iran…I urge you to Google, Mossadeq Iran 1953. The US does not share your dreams or delusions of spreading Democracy.

After reading your last comment, I went on my morning run and began to think “ why is the elephant in the room and why do I smell rat Do Do “ I have come to the conclusion and this is the conclusion of a lot of other Americans there is that we’re there to change things. I know, I know you are gonna tell me they we’re there for the oil. They we’re just there to do those poor primitive devils out of their natural resources and of course to expand the evil empire. I’m going to ignore the evil empire nothin’ I say will change your view on that. I feel that the idea put forth by the left in this country that we went to Iraq to screw those poor heathen devils out of their oil, is perhaps one of the most racist things that can be said. This is reminiscent of the white man’s burden. It goes back to the days when you could give primitive people a box full of beads and walked off with Manhattan Island, or you could show the witch doctor your cigarette lighter and they would think you were God. One thing is for certain you do not have to teach governments in the Middle East what to do with the oil. they know what it is, if not, there’s a cousin down the line that can come in and show them all the marketing tricks they need.

So why do I feel that we are there? We are there to make a difference. We look at a country of Iraq, which had never had an even break, ruled by the Turks, by the British, by Thugs, this country has never had a decent chance. Why I’m there is because I would love to see a democracy in the Middle East A true democracy. I’d like to see the people of Iraq be allowed to grow to their full potential. I’d like to see schools for all the children, hospitals for all the sick, I’d like to see women treated not only with respect but as full partners in a society for each person has a worth regardless of their sex or their ethnicity or their religion are who their granddaddy was. I would love to see those Kurdish kids that I coached at soccer last year have their own country, be able to go to university and be able to take their place in the world the same as my children. Because as it is there no there’s nothing there for them. Today at Kurdish child’s greatest ambition is to grow up and become a member of the Persh merga. Basically to propagate the violence. I want to see a country built on human rights and dignity. And if you say They’re not ready for it, whoever is? And if you say it’s not our problem And what is our problem somebody has to beat back the forces of darkness so that the light can shine.

I look at Turkey and almost see my dream, there is an untold amount of work to be done but the Turks are doing it, they are fulfilling their goal on the world stage. But there is one sure and certain idea. That under an Islamic state under Islamic law it will not ever happened. If you do not believe that, you have only to look at Iran. This was a country that had everything they were leapfrogging into the 21st century and we turn our backs on them and the Islamic revolution came and hurled them to the fourteenth century. Iran at one time was a garden spot of the world is not even a good cesspool now.

The French Resistance were not kind to the French puppet regime installed by the Germans and killed many French.

I get that you and Danny have seen some bad shit and have difficulty seeing beyond the who of it, but just the idea that you were over there suggests that perhaps there are other questions that should be asked. Ignoring the elephant in the room to smell the rat shit is what I see happening here.

I don’t agree with these wars either. I basically think most war is simply a racket. But what Danny said, sans his antipathy towards terrorists and insurgents, is essentially true. You also cannot possibly compare what we are facing to French Algeria. We are not trying to colonize either place. Neither are these people attacking strictly Americans. They keep attacking one another. They are blowing each other apart with far more zeal than they attack Americans.

What you said is true. If you are faced with an overwhelming force ratio, you have to use what force you have in a guerrilla fashion; or otherwise asymmetrically. That is what Algerians did. That is not what is happening in Iraq. France was shaking off the fourth republic at the time. We are not nearly in that situation now. If we do get to that point, it will happen because of greed and economy rather than war. Don’t be surprised if the democrats find new wars to increase production either. There is no such thing as a ‘left’ in American politics in any case.

Lastly, most people who come back from that place take months or years to regain tolerance for what they saw — even when not at war. When I was there in the nineties, they hung a group of men from cranes in the middle of a town for being homosexual (in Saudi Arabia, our ‘allies’). Reading that statement and experiencing it are two different things. This is a place that would leave young schoolgirls in a burning school building because they don’t have head scarves. Yes, that happened too. It is hard to get that out of one’s mind and be tolerant of the people there. I am not justifying how he feels. But you can’t really judge him either, from the comfort of your computer chair. That place *really* sucks. Only Africa seems to be worse.

I don’t know where you get that I think that is acceptable. The Geneva Convention had some interesting things to say regarding waging war and what it does to people–including who is responsible.

At least you are honest but I find your racism hasn’t allowed much practicality or empathy to enter into your judgment of cowardice.

Picking up a rifle accomplishes little against an invader as heavily financed as the US. Perhaps you could gain some perspective from looking at the French Resistance–Who were absolutely brutal with their fellow Frenchmen.

note to editors: Please don’t delete Danny’s post