Comments on: Open Letter to my Cousin in Oklahoma and the “Christians” of the United States http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:51:44 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Danny Ray http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28862 Danny Ray Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:06:34 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28862 Sorry Clifton, I have reread this twice and I still see this as bias againced all Christians, Suppose I wrote all "Muslems" are murdeous cowards. I know all Muslems are not but would my readers? Sorry Clifton,

I have reread this twice and I still see this as bias againced all Christians, Suppose I wrote all “Muslems” are murdeous cowards. I know all Muslems are not but would my readers?

]]> By: Clifton http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28835 Clifton Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:46:58 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28835 Thanks, Jonathan. Yes, that's exactly what I was going for. By the way, I have many Christian friends who truly follow Jesus (as they understand him) and I have the utmost respect for them. Thanks all for your comments. Thanks, Jonathan. Yes, that’s exactly what I was going for. By the way, I have many Christian friends who truly follow Jesus (as they understand him) and I have the utmost respect for them. Thanks all for your comments.

]]> By: Jonathan http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28827 Jonathan Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:59:49 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28827 Danny Is it perhaps possible that you read 'double standard' into the article because you missed the fact that the author uses quotation marks to emphasise exactly the fact that: you can not paint all Christians with the same brush? Cheers Danny
Is it perhaps possible that you read ‘double standard’ into the article because you missed the fact that the author uses quotation marks to emphasise exactly the fact that: you can not paint all Christians with the same brush?
Cheers

]]> By: Danny Ray http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28818 Danny Ray Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:50:42 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28818 Bryan , I apologize I meant to point out your excellent attitudes and my last post , but got caught up and submitted it before I thought about you forgive me. Danny Bryan , I apologize I meant to point out your excellent attitudes and my last post , but got caught up and submitted it before I thought about you forgive me.
Danny

]]> By: Danny Ray http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28817 Danny Ray Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:47:44 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28817 Good Morning Everyone ; I've read this article and the responses with a great deal of interest . I'll make it a habit to read this post each day , I find it gives me a great deal of insite, and it makes me think . I never cease to be amazed at the attitudes many on the left propose . Before I begin this let me clearly state that your beliefs are your beliefs . I am a Christian and whether you are Hindu, Muslim, or mud worshiper , I'm proud to say that I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you to defend your right to believe how ever you choose to believe . I also must state that do not write this note to change in the one's perspective . I merely have to write to say what I feel . That being said I have to take exception and point out the double standard in the above article . Many many times in hundreds of articles here on the dissident voice I have heard we cannot condemn all Muslims for the acts of a few . Islam is a religion of peace , only a few have hijacked this religion for their own purposes . That to condemn all Muslims for the act of a few is blatant bigotry . And yet the above article and the comments posted after condemns all Christians with the same brush . There are many, many fine Christians who love all men and consider all men their brothers . They are many Christians who believe in the socialism of Christianity . To condemn all Christians and Christianity for the acts of a few or even a large percentage, depending on your take , I firmly believe is an act of racism or bigotry at the very least . In the sake of honesty I must tell you I'm not one of the above Christians , I consider myself a Christian warrior, and I'll probably will be one of the first to march out on the crusade . But that's another argument and use a tired old phrase we'll cross that bridge when we come to it . Good Morning Everyone ;

I’ve read this article and the responses with a great deal of interest . I’ll make it a habit to read this post each day , I find it gives me a great deal of insite, and it makes me think . I never cease to be amazed at the attitudes many on the left propose . Before I begin this let me clearly state that your beliefs are your beliefs . I am a Christian and whether you are Hindu, Muslim, or mud worshiper , I’m proud to say that I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you to defend your right to believe how ever you choose to believe . I also must state that do not write this note to change in the one’s perspective . I merely have to write to say what I feel .

That being said I have to take exception and point out the double standard in the above article . Many many times in hundreds of articles here on the dissident voice I have heard we cannot condemn all Muslims for the acts of a few . Islam is a religion of peace , only a few have hijacked this religion for their own purposes . That to condemn all Muslims for the act of a few is blatant bigotry .

And yet the above article and the comments posted after condemns all Christians with the same brush . There are many, many fine Christians who love all men and consider all men their brothers . They are many Christians who believe in the socialism of Christianity . To condemn all Christians and Christianity for the acts of a few or even a large percentage, depending on your take , I firmly believe is an act of racism or bigotry at the very least . In the sake of honesty I must tell you I’m not one of the above Christians , I consider myself a Christian warrior, and I’ll probably will be one of the first to march out on the crusade . But that’s another argument and use a tired old phrase we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it .

]]> By: Annie http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28804 Annie Thu, 25 Sep 2008 01:13:18 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28804 I love it when someone preaches the truth!!!Hallelujah!....Amen!...Brother Ross!!! I love it when someone preaches the truth!!!Hallelujah!….Amen!…Brother Ross!!!

]]> By: Jonathan http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28725 Jonathan Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:23:21 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28725 Brian, 'Jesus was a warrior of love' that's quite a phrase, thanks for that. Brian, ‘Jesus was a warrior of love’ that’s quite a phrase, thanks for that.

]]> By: Marc http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28705 Marc Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:14:26 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28705 Thanks, Clif, for your insightful and provocative words. In upside-down America, the land of reversible cups that refuses intercultural learning and prophetic criticism, justice is redefined as "rewarding achievers" and solidarity seems a foreign word. America is surely a terrorist nation, not a Christian nation. America is an insular nation that accepts the false securities of double standards and intimidation. Let us hope that America will finally accept the new realities of sharing power and interdependence and stop forcing myths of trickle-down hocus-pocus on the world. Several ideas from German history could help us become interdependent and less triumphalistic. Martin Heidegger said, in a thought-provoking time we've lost the ability to think. Dietrich Bonhoeffer distinguished penultimate and ultimate and said one act of obedience was more important than a thousand sermons. Karl Barth emphasized the difference between civil righteousness (driving on the right side of the road etc) and Christian righteousness (following the Samaritan's example and helping the distressed). Jesus' parables like zen koans have the power to turn the world upside down. Losing and forgetting self is the Christian secret. The "other" is the incognito of God. Wonder and fulfillment come when we see life as a gift, not a possession, and discover the stories in ourselves and others and don't simply gaze at the stories of office buildings. Maybe First Nations peoples are right in seeing the present as borrowed from the future. In "Feast of Fools," Harvey Cox says the consumer society is without memory and hope, festivity and fantasy. We've lost the sense of play and wonder, the child's enthrallment in the moment. In dying to the "laws" of profit and accumulation, we can live the real laws of compassion, sharing and solidarity. As Microsoft stock dropped to a 22-year low, the signs on the wall can't be ignored. Thanks, Clif, for your insightful and provocative words. In upside-down America, the land of reversible cups that refuses intercultural learning and prophetic criticism, justice is redefined as “rewarding achievers” and solidarity seems a foreign word. America is surely a terrorist nation, not a Christian nation. America is an insular nation that accepts the false securities of double standards and intimidation. Let us hope that America will finally accept the new realities of sharing power and interdependence and stop forcing myths of trickle-down hocus-pocus on the world.
Several ideas from German history could help us become interdependent and less triumphalistic. Martin Heidegger said, in a thought-provoking time we’ve lost the ability to think. Dietrich Bonhoeffer distinguished penultimate and ultimate and said one act of obedience was more important than a thousand sermons. Karl Barth emphasized the difference between civil righteousness (driving on the right side of the road etc) and Christian righteousness (following the Samaritan’s example and helping the distressed).
Jesus’ parables like zen koans have the power to turn the world upside down. Losing and forgetting self is the Christian secret. The “other” is the incognito of God. Wonder and fulfillment come when we see life as a gift, not a possession, and discover the stories in ourselves and others and don’t simply gaze at the stories of office buildings. Maybe First Nations peoples are right in seeing the present as borrowed from the future.
In “Feast of Fools,” Harvey Cox says the consumer society is without memory and hope, festivity and fantasy. We’ve lost the sense of play and wonder, the child’s enthrallment in the moment. In dying to the “laws” of profit and accumulation, we can live the real laws of compassion, sharing and solidarity. As Microsoft stock dropped to a 22-year low, the signs on the wall can’t be ignored.

]]> By: Brian Koontz http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28694 Brian Koontz Tue, 23 Sep 2008 03:58:03 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28694 The problem with legitimate Christians in America is that they are so often pacifists - they shrink away from conflict with the "Christians" who degrade their faith and practice. Christians have somehow come to believe that Jesus stands for political correctness, for apologetics, for explaining away and wishing away sin. Hence "Christians" abuse the country and Christians let it happen, under the banner of "pacifism" or it's secular version - "tolerance". Very few people I talk to understand that Jesus's whole life was one of conflict and war - against Rome, against hypocrites of religion, against the existing definition of God. He was embattled both externally and internally constantly, ending in a violent death. So for Christians to somehow believe that being a wallflower, "accepting others no matter what", sitting in silence while lies, deceptions, omissions, and monstrosities are used in their presence, is what Jesus would do, is an utterly false atrocity and has severely degraded American culture. Jesus was a Warrior of Love. The problem with legitimate Christians in America is that they are so often pacifists – they shrink away from conflict with the “Christians” who degrade their faith and practice. Christians have somehow come to believe that Jesus stands for political correctness, for apologetics, for explaining away and wishing away sin. Hence “Christians” abuse the country and Christians let it happen, under the banner of “pacifism” or it’s secular version – “tolerance”.

Very few people I talk to understand that Jesus’s whole life was one of conflict and war – against Rome, against hypocrites of religion, against the existing definition of God. He was embattled both externally and internally constantly, ending in a violent death.

So for Christians to somehow believe that being a wallflower, “accepting others no matter what”, sitting in silence while lies, deceptions, omissions, and monstrosities are used in their presence, is what Jesus would do, is an utterly false atrocity and has severely degraded American culture.

Jesus was a Warrior of Love.

]]> By: Pato http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28690 Pato Tue, 23 Sep 2008 02:29:19 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28690 Dear Clif, thanks for your honesty in this article. I found it necessarily to read. perhaps people "Christians" who would read it, will start to open their third eye and become not more meaningless puritans instead real humans with compassion and, a self-willing. justice Dear Clif,

thanks for your honesty in this article. I found it necessarily to read. perhaps people “Christians” who would read it, will start to open their third eye and become not more meaningless puritans instead real humans with compassion and, a self-willing.

justice

]]> By: AHJ http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/09/open-letter-to-my-cousin-in-oklahoma-and-the-%e2%80%9cchristians%e2%80%9d-of-the-united-states/#comment-28670 AHJ Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:50:31 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=3309#comment-28670 Clifton: Bravely done, and well written. The big issue that you are facing, and which this nation is also, is the knotty one of how to get communication to occur when an environment has turned against openness and put up its shields against the discovery of truth. Why would an individual do that--that is, turn his or her back against open dialogue and the exchange of information? And how do you penetrate such a cold bias? As to the reasons, one could speculate that it would be a natural impulse on the part of a person who themselves had an investment in untruth, because they had unmentionable sins--stealing cookies, masturbating, or perhaps even losing their virginity, Gawd forbid, under cloak of darkness. Again, it could be a natural defense against someone whose commitment to an arbitrary or authoritatrian set of data could only be threatened at the risk of re-awakening great personal confusion that had long been held at bay by the use of such erroneous but "useful" information. There may be other reasons. As to the second question, you are manning the barricades with the only solution I can think of which is persisting in rebuttal, additional information, more communication, offered in as kindly a tone as you can muster. Keep up the good work. Clifton:

Bravely done, and well written. The big issue that you are facing, and which this nation is also, is the knotty one of how to get communication to occur when an environment has turned against openness and put up its shields against the discovery of truth. Why would an individual do that–that is, turn his or her back against open dialogue and the exchange of information?

And how do you penetrate such a cold bias?

As to the reasons, one could speculate that it would be a natural impulse on the part of a person who themselves had an investment in untruth, because they had unmentionable sins–stealing cookies, masturbating, or perhaps even losing their virginity, Gawd forbid, under cloak of darkness. Again, it could be a natural defense against someone whose commitment to an arbitrary or authoritatrian set of data could only be threatened at the risk of re-awakening great personal confusion that had long been held at bay by the use of such erroneous but “useful” information. There may be other reasons.

As to the second question, you are manning the barricades with the only solution I can think of which is persisting in rebuttal, additional information, more communication, offered in as kindly a tone as you can muster.

Keep up the good work.

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