Comments on: Invention and Progress http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:46:26 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: bozhidar balkas http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27280 bozhidar balkas Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:24:38 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27280 james keye, as an egalitarian/socialist, i agree with you that we have in US/canada and many places much, too much distorted teachings by clergy, educators, generals, politicos, media, and individuals. but warping of minds had begun long ago; perhaps it started some 20,000 yrs ago by a few mad priests and psychopaths. how else to explain the emergence of barons, earls, kings, grafen, princes, bishops, cardinals, etal. such misdeeds cld have been done only by priests and the extremely avaricious/vain people. and the disease/cancer is still with us. thank u in short, we had organized theft for ca. 20,000 yrs. mafia i think rose just because of that. they had 'good' teachers. thanx james keye,
as an egalitarian/socialist, i agree with you that we have in US/canada and many places much, too much distorted teachings by clergy, educators, generals, politicos, media, and individuals.
but warping of minds had begun long ago; perhaps it started some 20,000 yrs ago by a few mad priests and psychopaths.
how else to explain the emergence of barons, earls, kings, grafen, princes, bishops, cardinals, etal.
such misdeeds cld have been done only by priests and the extremely avaricious/vain people.
and the disease/cancer is still with us. thank u
in short, we had organized theft for ca. 20,000 yrs. mafia i think rose just because of that. they had ‘good’ teachers.
thanx

]]> By: James Keye http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27242 James Keye Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:42:04 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27242 bozhidar balkas, Actually that was text quoted from my essay. I am suggesting that today all that we can do is to develop a personal relationship with the biophysical reality. This was once the function of community, but today community (society) is so distorted and distorting that we will not find satisfactory guidance there. If enough people are able to create effective personal relationships with Reality, then it might be possible to bring them together to allow effective community relationships with the biosphere in which we live. bozhidar balkas,

Actually that was text quoted from my essay. I am suggesting that today all that we can do is to develop a personal relationship with the biophysical reality. This was once the function of community, but today community (society) is so distorted and distorting that we will not find satisfactory guidance there. If enough people are able to create effective personal relationships with Reality, then it might be possible to bring them together to allow effective community relationships with the biosphere in which we live.

]]> By: bozhidar balkas http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27241 bozhidar balkas Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:03:15 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27241 max, you wrote: "..... reconstructing our relationship, first personally and then possibly societally (obviously can't be in the other order) i thought that you meant individual or personal responsibility in a relationship. as we know, a relationship betwn individuals and betwn an individual and a collection of individuals involves some rules, obligations, responsibilities, etc. to me, collective and individual obligations are aspects of one behavior. and we do not know and perhaps never will know which in value comes first. it's like chicken-egg relationship. we do not know which came out first. american ruling class praises individual responsibility more than any other nation but collective duties towards an individual is never, as far as i know, even mentioned let alone vigoroulsy studied. more can be said.... thanx for inquiry max,
you wrote: “….. reconstructing our relationship, first personally and then possibly societally (obviously can’t be in the other order)
i thought that you meant individual or personal responsibility in a relationship.
as we know, a relationship betwn individuals and betwn an individual and a collection of individuals involves some rules, obligations, responsibilities, etc.
to me, collective and individual obligations are aspects of one behavior.
and we do not know and perhaps never will know which in value comes first.
it’s like chicken-egg relationship. we do not know which came out first.
american ruling class praises individual responsibility more than any other nation but collective duties towards an individual is never, as far as i know, even mentioned let alone vigoroulsy studied. more can be said…. thanx for inquiry

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27231 Max Shields Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:36:40 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27231 bozhidar balkas I'm perplexed by your post referencing "individual responsibility". Was this on another thread that I stated this? I'll be glad to respond if you can be more specific about what I "said". bozhidar balkas
I’m perplexed by your post referencing “individual responsibility”. Was this on another thread that I stated this?

I’ll be glad to respond if you can be more specific about what I “said”.

]]> By: bozhidar balkas http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27221 bozhidar balkas Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:26:11 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27221 max, just reread your post in which you state that individual responsibilty must come first. to me, it is like chcken and egg. don't know what comes first. similarly, i do not know whether individual or collective responsibility comes first. i do aver that one can't have one w.o the other. thanx max,
just reread your post in which you state that individual responsibilty must come first.
to me, it is like chcken and egg. don’t know what comes first.
similarly, i do not know whether individual or collective responsibility comes first.
i do aver that one can’t have one w.o the other. thanx

]]> By: James Keye http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27165 James Keye Wed, 27 Aug 2008 00:33:51 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27165 David, The whole history of idea helped inform Kelvin where and how to lay down his ruler. He did a great service to the advancement of reductionist science, and the tool of scientific positivism has dug many a ditch, but these are not the only tools of thought. It just might be they have only specialized application. David,

The whole history of idea helped inform Kelvin where and how to lay down his ruler. He did a great service to the advancement of reductionist science, and the tool of scientific positivism has dug many a ditch, but these are not the only tools of thought. It just might be they have only specialized application.

]]> By: David http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27160 David Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:11:08 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27160 "When you can measure what you are speaking about and express it in numbers, you know something about it; ...when you cannot ... your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind." Lord Kelvin So, what have you got for us, Mr. Keye? “When you can measure what you are speaking about and express it in numbers, you know something about it; …when you cannot … your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”

Lord Kelvin

So, what have you got for us, Mr. Keye?

]]> By: Lab Rat http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27137 Lab Rat Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:02:07 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27137 A very interesting artical. Do bear in mind though, that the idea of Progress is a cultural one. In buddhist thinking (for example) things are circular rather than linear, the idea of progress is not so strong. Also I believe in some ancient cultures (I will look it up, but for some reason the Egyptians spring to mind) there was also less emphasis placed on movement and progression. Stagnation is not necessarily a bad thing if one can stagnate in security. But certainly in the western world the notion of 'progress' has really taken off. Here is a Terry Pratchett quote for you: "Progress is just a way of making bad things happen faster." A very interesting artical. Do bear in mind though, that the idea of Progress is a cultural one. In buddhist thinking (for example) things are circular rather than linear, the idea of progress is not so strong. Also I believe in some ancient cultures (I will look it up, but for some reason the Egyptians spring to mind) there was also less emphasis placed on movement and progression. Stagnation is not necessarily a bad thing if one can stagnate in security.

But certainly in the western world the notion of ‘progress’ has really taken off. Here is a Terry Pratchett quote for you:

“Progress is just a way of making bad things happen faster.”

]]> By: bozhidar balkas http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27133 bozhidar balkas Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:03:09 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27133 we swim in one genetic pool from which we obtain an endless number of people with an endless number of talents. yet some humans make it a living hell for so many of us. we swim in one genetic pool from which we obtain an endless number of people with an endless number of talents.
yet some humans make it a living hell for so many of us.

]]> By: Donald Hawkins http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27085 Donald Hawkins Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:45:00 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27085 I sent this to one of the finanical channels this morning before reading James's article. So we need to drill, drill, drill and why do we need to do that? I know to keep that sleek twenty first century train moving down the tracks full of happy consumers. A little secret ahead of the train where there was a bridge there is a bridge no more. There is still tracks on the other side where the bridge was and to drill, drill, drill and keep using fossil fuels as we do now another ten years we the lose the tracks they will be no more. You know China how they look to the States and want to be like us. Might be a good idea to give them some new ideas but first we need some new ideas drill, drill, drill, no no, no. We might want to think about slowing down until we can get those new ideas. Can't do that well why not where in the book does it say we can't do that. Don't you think it would be a smart idea or to do that is admitting we are wrong and that is to hard to do? Slowing down is knowledge for some. I sent this to one of the finanical channels this morning before reading James’s article.

So we need to drill, drill, drill and why do we need to do that? I know to keep that sleek twenty first century train moving down the tracks full of happy consumers. A little secret ahead of the train where there was a bridge there is a bridge no more. There is still tracks on the other side where the bridge was and to drill, drill, drill and keep using fossil fuels as we do now another ten years we the lose the tracks they will be no more. You know China how they look to the States and want to be like us. Might be a good idea to give them some new ideas but first we need some new ideas drill, drill, drill, no no, no. We might want to think about slowing down until we can get those new ideas. Can’t do that well why not where in the book does it say we can’t do that. Don’t you think it would be a smart idea or to do that is admitting we are wrong and that is to hard to do?

Slowing down is knowledge for some.

]]> By: Max Shields http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27077 Max Shields Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:29:30 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27077 "We must use the only tools we have to begin reconstructing our relationship, first personally and then possibly societally (obviously can’t be in the other order), with the biophysical reality (the one and only!). That these tools are the very ones that drove us into this cul-de-sac should not be a damning concern; they would seem to me to be the natural ones, when brought more under our control, to carry us out." Agreed. Your journey is one I share. We have begun a local communiversity which speaks to this "reconstruction" of our relationships. You may be interested. “We must use the only tools we have to begin reconstructing our relationship, first personally and then possibly societally (obviously can’t be in the other order), with the biophysical reality (the one and only!). That these tools are the very ones that drove us into this cul-de-sac should not be a damning concern; they would seem to me to be the natural ones, when brought more under our control, to carry us out.”

Agreed. Your journey is one I share. We have begun a local communiversity which speaks to this “reconstruction” of our relationships.

You may be interested.

]]> By: bozhidar balkas http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/invention-and-progress/#comment-27074 bozhidar balkas Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:04:55 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2658#comment-27074 trains, cars, machines, planes, tanks, missiles, etc., kill lotsof people. OK, it's not machines that kill, it's machines/people who make them and use them that kill/maim. all that is done for a 'better life'. thank u trains, cars, machines, planes, tanks, missiles, etc., kill lotsof people.
OK, it’s not machines that kill, it’s machines/people who make them and use them that kill/maim.
all that is done for a ‘better life’.
thank u

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