Comments on: Georgia and Historical Farce

By: heike

heike — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:45:37 +0000

BY the way, USIA and USAID are CIA fronts–I know because friends of mine have worked for them.

That sounds like the present tense to me.

Your problem is that you seek to tar anyone with the CIA label, which is classical disinformation straight out of KGB HQ. You know so little about what went on in this conflict; you simply take as your starting point an anti-American attitude and everything falls into place.

Try reading something written by a few courageous Russians on the scene who don’t buy your reflexive “American imperialism” garbage.
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/data/2008/62/09.html

By: ron

ron — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:05:47 +0000

heike,
You assume a present tense because that’s how you want to read my statement. I am talking about history–that implies what is past. As for your dwelling on what is a CIA front or isn’t—how does that relate to the fact that the current government of Georgia is (at least partially) acting as a pawn for Washington in an unfolding drama between the US empire and the wannabe Moscow empire? After all, that is the point of my original piece.
To be honest, I don’t know or care about the CIA’s relationship to the Fulbright program or the FLEX program. I do know that the CIA used USAID and USIA IN THE PAST. Your implication that there is some kind of clear distinction between the various agencies of the US government that is never bridged (and that the State Department is somehow immune to the skullduggery of the CIA and other such agencies shows a naivete that allows the US government to continue its ongoing pretense that it does not operate with a singular intent. This is how so many people can believe that Colin POwell was a good guy when he ran the State Department but was forced to do bad things by the CIA, NSC, and the Defense Department (and Dick Cheney). Sorry, I don’t buy that.

By: heike

heike — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:21:57 +0000

Ron: I don’t have to ignore anything because I am well aware of the facts. You don’t seem to be aware of the fact that USIA hasn’t been in existence for nine years, but that’s a minor detail, isn’t it. (you used the present tense about USIA and USAID being “CIA fronts.” ) So let’s see: is the Fulbright Program or the FLEX high school exchange program also a CIA front?

By: Lloyd Rowsey

Lloyd Rowsey — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:47:23 +0000

I forgive you for the egomania which prevented me from finishing Short Order Frame Up, Ron. You are a master of clear and logical prose. And if you think the loss is the world’s, consider the fiction of Gore Vidal, as fiction.

By: ron

ron — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:13:48 +0000

Ignore what you want about the nature of USAID and USIA–it doesn’t change the historical facts. It does, however, help you make your argument. Of course, it doesn’t help with that argument’s veracity.

By: heike

heike — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:35:51 +0000

http://blog.oup.com/2008/04/jimmy_carter/

You probably were thinking of the Logan Act of 1799; the above link discusses whether Jimmy Carter violated the Act in his dealings with Hamas.

By: heike

heike — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:25:27 +0000

I’m well aware of NED and what it does. Just because the CIA may in the past have funded some programs which are now funded through Congressional appropriations to NED or other agencies doesn’t mean that NED is a CIA front. Radio Free Europe was funded by CIA in the 1950s and 1960s. It is now run by the Board for International Broadcasting, a body set up by Congress. Does anyone argue seriously that the BIB is also a CIA front?

Are you really serious about using Blum as a reliable source?

Ron: you are hallucinating about USIA and USAID being CIA fronts. That’s the oldest slander on the books! I don’t care how many “friends” you can produce. USIA was amalgamated with the State Department in 1999; I guess that means the State Department is now a denizen of CIA, right?

Michael: read your Constitution. Article I Section 10 prohibits the states from entering into compacts with foreign governments. Thousands of private organizations conduct some aspect of foreign policy and no one except you raises an eyebrow. Several states maintain trade offices in other countries. They can’t sign treaties but they can sign commercial agreements. Foreign policy goes way beyond the scope of government-to-government relations

By: Michael Collins

Michael Collins — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 03:50:00 +0000

heike, Do some research already. NED is a true mess. Here’s a start for you. Recall that the U.S. Constitution prevents private foreign policy, yet this is just that. Not much true democracy here.

From right to left the story is well out on NED and the suspicious about links to intel groups are well discussed in various places:

Allen Weinstein, who helped draft the legislation establishing NED, was quite candid when he said in 1991: “A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.” In effect, the CIA has been laundering money through NED. — From “Rogue State – A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower” by William Blum

One of their major funding sources, The Bradley Foundation:

“The overall objective of the Bradley Foundation, however, is to return the U.S. — and the world — to the days before governments began to regulate Big Business, before corporations were forced to make concessions to an organized labor force. In other words, laissez-faire capitalism: capitalism with the gloves off. ” SourceWatch

The close alignment of the NEDs activities with US foreign policy interests comes as no surprise, especially when you consider the revolving doorways between the US Government and the NED Board of Directors, some of the most notable of which include: (Kissinger, Albright, Carlucci, Wolfoqitz, Bill Brock Wikipedia

Unfortunately, the types of substantive projects that NED has promoted may make many people nostalgic for the comparative insipidity of paying for political junkets. On a number of occasions, for example, NED has taken advantage of its alleged private status to influence foreign elections, an activity that is beyond the scope of AID or USIA and would otherwise be possible only through a CIA covert operation. Such activities, it may also be worth noting, would be illegal for foreign groups operating in the United States. As columnist Mary McGrory mused: (more at CATO Institute)

The place stinks. It shouldn’t be allowed to do what it does under the Constitution (individuals making foreign policy, etc.)

By: ron

ron — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:28:51 +0000

do some research and come up with your own conclusions. I think some of them had to do with the fact that they were a state capitalist enterprise (and not a genuine socialist) that could not make a profit.

By: MrSynec3

MrSynec3 — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:26:44 +0000

Ron Jocobs wrote:
“the Soviet Union disintegrated in the late 20th century due to economic and political contradictions that could not be resolved.”

What were those contradictions?

By: ron

ron — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:24:40 +0000

Whoa! Read the rest of the history book. The Soviet Union fought the Nazis from 1941 on. This was a decisive aspect of the war. As for Karl Marx, just because you and the Chinese and Russian government don’t care about Karl Marx does not mean his viewpoint of history is not relevant to the current situations. I personally don’t care about Herbert Hoover, Leo Strauss, Milton Friedman, John Locke and many other capitalist theorists and politicians but I doesn’t dismiss their relevance to the current situation. Let me refer you to a few places that might enlighten you if you are willing to keep your mind open in regards to NED. BY the way, USIA and USAID are CIA fronts–I know because friends of mine have worked for them.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/National%20EndowmentDemo.html

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=National_Endowment_for_Democracy

My point on the presentation is twofold: that there are those hired by the NED that question the support provided by NED and other US agencies to the current Georgian regime; and that even those on the NED payroll admit that Georgia is not exactly the great democracy proclaimed by Bush and many other US politicians. Let me make this clear–since you didn’t get this from my piece–I don’t support Russia’s invasion, nor do I support the Georgian military action. I am merely pointing out that the people of Georgia and Russia (and much of the rest of the world) are being manipulated by both Washington and Moscow as the two capitals stake out their respective empires. This is what caused WW I–and we all know how great that was.

By: heike

heike — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 20:13:33 +0000

You are making a lot of wild, unsubstantiated charges. What proof do you offer that the CIA put Saakashvili into power? What proof do you offer that NED is a CIA front? None whatsoever.

Your view of history is lacking some basic facts. One of the “capitalist powers” the USSR was aligned with was Nazi Germany. That alignment brought about the Second World War. You do know about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, don’t you? If you think the U.S. and the “imperialist powers” brought about the wars of the Yugoslav succession, you really have a lot to learn.

And frankly, who cares about Karl Marx nowadays? The Russians don’t. The Chinese don’t.

What is your point about the Areshidze presentation? Is he also a CIA agent, since he is a NED Fellow? I do have to complement his prescience in predicting what was going to happen in Georgia this summer.

By: ron

ron — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 16:40:02 +0000

If you recall, the Rose Revolution was not at the ballot box. It was led by a combination of homegrown democracy advocates and a cynical collaboration of foreign (primarily US) and native commercial and governmental interests. I would say that the democracy advocates were misled once again. Here is an interesting power point presentation by an NED fellow that provides a not-so-generous look at what the Saakashvili government calls democracy. My guess is that his viewpoint is a minority viewpoint inside the Beltway.

http://www.ned.org/docs/2008.06.04Georgia.ppt

By: Michael Kenny

Michael Kenny — Sat, 23 Aug 2008 15:09:42 +0000

A small point. You can’t speak of Saakashvili being “put into place by the CIA and … NED”, any more than you could say that of Tony Blair. In the Council of Europe, member states have to maintain minimum standards of European (NOT American!) democracy or they will be suspended. Equally, they will very quickly find themselves in violation of the European Convention of Human Rights. Blair is perhaps the best parallel. Being slavishly servile to US interests does not mean that a leader was automatically “installed” in power by some arm of the US government. It just means that the voters made a “bad buy”!

Discussion of Europe would be a lot more credible if we Europeans could actually recognise our own continent in the description given of it and did not have to wonder if the author wasn’t referring to Jupiter’s moon!