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	<title>Comments on: Diplomatic Rubble</title>
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		<title>By: heike</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26852</link>
		<dc:creator>heike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26852</guid>
		<description>&quot;Poland started the problem in East Prussia and the Corridor.  Germany cured it (with the help of the First Worker&#039;s and Peasant&#039;s State).
The U.S. and Britain should mind their own business.&quot;
End of story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Poland started the problem in East Prussia and the Corridor.  Germany cured it (with the help of the First Worker&#8217;s and Peasant&#8217;s State).<br />
The U.S. and Britain should mind their own business.&#8221;<br />
End of story.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26825</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 19:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26825</guid>
		<description>Georgia started the problem in Ossetia.

Russia cured it.

The United States should mind its own business.

End of story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Georgia started the problem in Ossetia.</p>
<p>Russia cured it.</p>
<p>The United States should mind its own business.</p>
<p>End of story.</p>
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		<title>By: Lijandra</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26782</link>
		<dc:creator>Lijandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 02:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26782</guid>
		<description>&quot;...Russophobic, vengeful Polish and Czech governments...&quot;

Sure they are that, but don&#039;t you think they might have a good reason to be that way?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;Russophobic, vengeful Polish and Czech governments&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure they are that, but don&#8217;t you think they might have a good reason to be that way?!</p>
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		<title>By: heike</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26771</link>
		<dc:creator>heike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26771</guid>
		<description>Here are the exact statistics on Russian passport holders in the Baltic states:



Latvia, for example, has a total population of 2.3 million, of whom around a third are ethnic Russians -- 363,000 of them Latvian citizens, 278,000 non-citizens, and 22,000 Russian passport-holders.

In Estonia, around a quarter of the population of 1.3 million are Russian-speakers -- including 150,000 naturalised Estonians, around 100,000 non-citizens and a similar number of Russian passport-holders, including the teenage traveller Kravets.

Lithuania adopted more liberal citizenship rules from the outset and has far fewer non-nationals among its total population of 3.2 million -- it is home to 12,000 Russian citizens and 5,900 non-citizens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are the exact statistics on Russian passport holders in the Baltic states:</p>
<p>Latvia, for example, has a total population of 2.3 million, of whom around a third are ethnic Russians &#8212; 363,000 of them Latvian citizens, 278,000 non-citizens, and 22,000 Russian passport-holders.</p>
<p>In Estonia, around a quarter of the population of 1.3 million are Russian-speakers &#8212; including 150,000 naturalised Estonians, around 100,000 non-citizens and a similar number of Russian passport-holders, including the teenage traveller Kravets.</p>
<p>Lithuania adopted more liberal citizenship rules from the outset and has far fewer non-nationals among its total population of 3.2 million &#8212; it is home to 12,000 Russian citizens and 5,900 non-citizens.</p>
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		<title>By: heike</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26769</link>
		<dc:creator>heike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26769</guid>
		<description>A few corrections are in order.  First, ethnic Russians in Ukraine.  According to the 2001 Census, they constitute 17% of the overall population, and are a majority (58%) in the Crimea and in the Crimean port city of Sevastopol (71%).  The highest representation in the other oblasts is 38% in Donetsk, 39% in Luhansk and in the mid-20s in Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkiv oblasts.  Ethnic Russians live in every oblast in the country.  The highest concentration of native Russian speakers is in the Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk oblasts, ranging from 69-77%.  Of course you can hear Ukrainian spoken in the country&#039;s capital.  It&#039;s the official language, after all.  Russian language programs generally are NOT subtitled in Ukrainian.  Indeed, Ukraine is a country where you can listen to a talk show and have two people banter back and forth with each other in Russian and Ukrainian with no translation necessary.  

As for temperament, Ukrainians in oblasts under Russian cultural influence are more likely to associate themselves with their eastern brothers than people in the rest of the country.  Ukraine is a country where there are sharp geopolitical divisions, where voting in the West (e.g. strong support for Yushchenko&#039;s &quot;Nasha Ukraina&quot; block in the west, just the opposite in the east).  

As far as Russian citizens elsewhereare concerned.  Russians constitute 25% of the population of Estonia.  About a half of these are Russian passport holders.  Russian citizens exist in all the FSU countries.  Putin has championed the &quot;cause&quot; of ethnic Russians in the FSU, and uses this as a pretext to interfere in their internal affairs.  It doesn&#039;t matter, in the end, whether these ethnic Russians hold Russian or non-Russian passports.

As far as Shevardnadze is concerned, he has roundly denounced the Russian occupation of Georgia.  Not surprising that this little tidbit didn&#039;t make it into this article:

 Paris - Former Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze Tuesday labeled Russia a threat to Europe and called for Moscow to be punished for its invasion of Georgia.

&#039;The Georgia conflict is a test,&#039; the former Soviet foreign minister told the French daily Le Parisien. &#039;If the Europeans let Russia away with this, what guarantee can they then give Poland or the Baltic states if the scenario repeats itself?&#039;

Shevardnadze called on the European Union and the US to extend financial and humanitarian help to Georgia. &#039;And why not military help also?,&#039; he added. &#039;The penalty for Russia should be its withdrawal from Georgia and the assurance that it will make no similar new attempt.&#039; 

The disinformstion from Eric the Red is legion.  No, the Americans didn&#039;t &quot;encourage&quot; Saakashvili to send his troops into Tskhinvali.  In fact, he was warned not to let himself fall into a Russian trap.  Why is the action of a foreign leader in trying to have good relations with the U.S. &quot;an odious game?&quot;  There are plenty of &quot;odious games&quot; going on in the Caucasus but Eric, with his usual double standards (&quot;everything the Russians do is right, or &#039;self-protection&#039; whereas everything the West or U.S. does is wrong, or odious.&quot;) fails to see the forest from the trees. 

With what &quot;historical justification&quot; could the Russians annex the Crimea?  Maybe they have the same justification for taking back Alaska?  Eric (Simon) loves to scream about &quot;blatant provocations of Russia,&quot; but what does he think Russia is doing vis-a-vis its neighbors?
(suggestion: some of the independent Russian media has come out with some very significant analyses of how Russia planned these moves in August in advance.  On the eve of the 40th anniversary of the &quot;fraternal assistance to the working people of Czechoslovakia,&quot; it&#039;s instructive to see the parallels, including the holding of military maneuvers just prior to occupying the country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few corrections are in order.  First, ethnic Russians in Ukraine.  According to the 2001 Census, they constitute 17% of the overall population, and are a majority (58%) in the Crimea and in the Crimean port city of Sevastopol (71%).  The highest representation in the other oblasts is 38% in Donetsk, 39% in Luhansk and in the mid-20s in Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkiv oblasts.  Ethnic Russians live in every oblast in the country.  The highest concentration of native Russian speakers is in the Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk oblasts, ranging from 69-77%.  Of course you can hear Ukrainian spoken in the country&#8217;s capital.  It&#8217;s the official language, after all.  Russian language programs generally are NOT subtitled in Ukrainian.  Indeed, Ukraine is a country where you can listen to a talk show and have two people banter back and forth with each other in Russian and Ukrainian with no translation necessary.  </p>
<p>As for temperament, Ukrainians in oblasts under Russian cultural influence are more likely to associate themselves with their eastern brothers than people in the rest of the country.  Ukraine is a country where there are sharp geopolitical divisions, where voting in the West (e.g. strong support for Yushchenko&#8217;s &#8220;Nasha Ukraina&#8221; block in the west, just the opposite in the east).  </p>
<p>As far as Russian citizens elsewhereare concerned.  Russians constitute 25% of the population of Estonia.  About a half of these are Russian passport holders.  Russian citizens exist in all the FSU countries.  Putin has championed the &#8220;cause&#8221; of ethnic Russians in the FSU, and uses this as a pretext to interfere in their internal affairs.  It doesn&#8217;t matter, in the end, whether these ethnic Russians hold Russian or non-Russian passports.</p>
<p>As far as Shevardnadze is concerned, he has roundly denounced the Russian occupation of Georgia.  Not surprising that this little tidbit didn&#8217;t make it into this article:</p>
<p> Paris &#8211; Former Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze Tuesday labeled Russia a threat to Europe and called for Moscow to be punished for its invasion of Georgia.</p>
<p>&#8216;The Georgia conflict is a test,&#8217; the former Soviet foreign minister told the French daily Le Parisien. &#8216;If the Europeans let Russia away with this, what guarantee can they then give Poland or the Baltic states if the scenario repeats itself?&#8217;</p>
<p>Shevardnadze called on the European Union and the US to extend financial and humanitarian help to Georgia. &#8216;And why not military help also?,&#8217; he added. &#8216;The penalty for Russia should be its withdrawal from Georgia and the assurance that it will make no similar new attempt.&#8217; </p>
<p>The disinformstion from Eric the Red is legion.  No, the Americans didn&#8217;t &#8220;encourage&#8221; Saakashvili to send his troops into Tskhinvali.  In fact, he was warned not to let himself fall into a Russian trap.  Why is the action of a foreign leader in trying to have good relations with the U.S. &#8220;an odious game?&#8221;  There are plenty of &#8220;odious games&#8221; going on in the Caucasus but Eric, with his usual double standards (&#8221;everything the Russians do is right, or &#8217;self-protection&#8217; whereas everything the West or U.S. does is wrong, or odious.&#8221;) fails to see the forest from the trees. </p>
<p>With what &#8220;historical justification&#8221; could the Russians annex the Crimea?  Maybe they have the same justification for taking back Alaska?  Eric (Simon) loves to scream about &#8220;blatant provocations of Russia,&#8221; but what does he think Russia is doing vis-a-vis its neighbors?<br />
(suggestion: some of the independent Russian media has come out with some very significant analyses of how Russia planned these moves in August in advance.  On the eve of the 40th anniversary of the &#8220;fraternal assistance to the working people of Czechoslovakia,&#8221; it&#8217;s instructive to see the parallels, including the holding of military maneuvers just prior to occupying the country.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Kenny</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26755</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Kenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26755</guid>
		<description>A few little points. Ukraine: Crimea is the only part of Ukraine inhabited by ethnic Russians. The rest is inhabited by ethnic Ukrainians, many of whom are native speakers of Russian (think: Ireland). Ukrainian is spoken only in the west of the country but all schoolchildren learn Ukrainian and (amusingly!) Russian-language TV programmes are subtitled in Ukrainian. You will never hear Ukrainian spoken in Kiev, for example.

The Ukrainians are very unlike the Russians in temperament but very like the Poles. I would guess, therefore, that the point about offering early warning facilities to the US is that they see the Poles (with far from perverse logic!) ripping off the US taxpayer for huge amounts of money for a missile system that will never be operational and want a slice of the same cake. They have no more intention of starting a war with Russia than the Poles and both know that the Russians are aware of that. The thing about Europe is never to be fooled by rhetoric!

The same is true of Merkel’s remark. Since Americans always fall hook, line and sinker for the superficial and fail to notice that they’ve been diddled in regard to the substantive reality, I would guess they she thinks (probably rightly) that the US will accept what she said as gospel while Europe pushes the date on this wondrous event comes to pass ever further into the future. Look at Iran sanctions and the Turkish EU application for examples of the same tactic. 

Ditto for the various Russian comments. Just part of the European political minuet!
Note carefully, though Medvedev’s careful formulation about protecting “Russian citizens”. There are practically no Russian citizens outside of Russia! The big gripe of the ethnic Russians in Estonia, for example, is, precisely, that Russia refuses to grant them citizenship. The old, and particularly the retired party fat cats, would willingly go back to Russia if Russia would only let them!

There have been no reports in Europe of any difference in the document signed by Saakashvili and Russia. As a matter of common sense, if the parties don’t sign identical documents, there is no agreement and nobody is claiming that! Normally, there are two copies. Each party signs one and sends it to the other who then signs it and sends it back. If the document received from Saakashvili was different from the one they had sent him, the Russians would never have signed it and Saakashvili would now be complaining that the Russians were refusing to sign the ceasefire. Idem for the slowness of the Russian pullout from Gori. Since they have to pull out soon in any event, I don’t see why hanging on for a few days more will change anything!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few little points. Ukraine: Crimea is the only part of Ukraine inhabited by ethnic Russians. The rest is inhabited by ethnic Ukrainians, many of whom are native speakers of Russian (think: Ireland). Ukrainian is spoken only in the west of the country but all schoolchildren learn Ukrainian and (amusingly!) Russian-language TV programmes are subtitled in Ukrainian. You will never hear Ukrainian spoken in Kiev, for example.</p>
<p>The Ukrainians are very unlike the Russians in temperament but very like the Poles. I would guess, therefore, that the point about offering early warning facilities to the US is that they see the Poles (with far from perverse logic!) ripping off the US taxpayer for huge amounts of money for a missile system that will never be operational and want a slice of the same cake. They have no more intention of starting a war with Russia than the Poles and both know that the Russians are aware of that. The thing about Europe is never to be fooled by rhetoric!</p>
<p>The same is true of Merkel’s remark. Since Americans always fall hook, line and sinker for the superficial and fail to notice that they’ve been diddled in regard to the substantive reality, I would guess they she thinks (probably rightly) that the US will accept what she said as gospel while Europe pushes the date on this wondrous event comes to pass ever further into the future. Look at Iran sanctions and the Turkish EU application for examples of the same tactic. </p>
<p>Ditto for the various Russian comments. Just part of the European political minuet!<br />
Note carefully, though Medvedev’s careful formulation about protecting “Russian citizens”. There are practically no Russian citizens outside of Russia! The big gripe of the ethnic Russians in Estonia, for example, is, precisely, that Russia refuses to grant them citizenship. The old, and particularly the retired party fat cats, would willingly go back to Russia if Russia would only let them!</p>
<p>There have been no reports in Europe of any difference in the document signed by Saakashvili and Russia. As a matter of common sense, if the parties don’t sign identical documents, there is no agreement and nobody is claiming that! Normally, there are two copies. Each party signs one and sends it to the other who then signs it and sends it back. If the document received from Saakashvili was different from the one they had sent him, the Russians would never have signed it and Saakashvili would now be complaining that the Russians were refusing to sign the ceasefire. Idem for the slowness of the Russian pullout from Gori. Since they have to pull out soon in any event, I don’t see why hanging on for a few days more will change anything!</p>
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		<title>By: cg</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26753</link>
		<dc:creator>cg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26753</guid>
		<description>Russia has proven just how impotent NATO is.
Does anyone think there would have been a difference if Georgia was already a member?
Europe freezing in the dark for Georgia?
Yea, right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russia has proven just how impotent NATO is.<br />
Does anyone think there would have been a difference if Georgia was already a member?<br />
Europe freezing in the dark for Georgia?<br />
Yea, right.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26732</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26732</guid>
		<description>Danny, while I agree with your concern about insinuating America as responsible for all the evils of the world as perhaps one sided or demeaning of other peoples in their own capabilities I do not feel that this text actually comes close to doing so. Of the four extracts from the article 1 was a statement made by a Russian diplomat, 1 was a quote from the Georgian ex-president, the third is a fact and the fourth is a speculative conclusion based on observable evidence. 
I don&#039;t think that any of them implicates either the pentagon or the CIA in planning Georgia&#039;s invasion of South Ossetia. 
 
Yes we were reading the same article and while I take your point, I can&#039;t agree with the rabid and insulting manner in which you  go about presenting the argument - perhaps to cover up the fact that the argument has nothing to stand on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danny, while I agree with your concern about insinuating America as responsible for all the evils of the world as perhaps one sided or demeaning of other peoples in their own capabilities I do not feel that this text actually comes close to doing so. Of the four extracts from the article 1 was a statement made by a Russian diplomat, 1 was a quote from the Georgian ex-president, the third is a fact and the fourth is a speculative conclusion based on observable evidence.<br />
I don&#8217;t think that any of them implicates either the pentagon or the CIA in planning Georgia&#8217;s invasion of South Ossetia. </p>
<p>Yes we were reading the same article and while I take your point, I can&#8217;t agree with the rabid and insulting manner in which you  go about presenting the argument &#8211; perhaps to cover up the fact that the argument has nothing to stand on.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny Ray</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26727</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26727</guid>
		<description>“It is hard to imagine that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili embarked on this risky venture without some sort of approval from the side of the United States.”

The witty Shevardnadze, who is also a former Soviet foreign minister, said the crisis would not cause a new Cold War, as “the new Cold War has long since been instigated by the USA , through the Americans’ so-called missile defence shield in the Czech Republic and Poland.”

Meanwhile, US military planes are flying in “aid” and the US has announced it will henceforth have a permanent presence in Georgia.

Because of the very real threat that Georgian troops, backed by their American friends, could easily try again to destabilise things, the Russians are understandably unwilling to abandon the western Georgian city of Gori, which has a military base.

Jon. were we reading the same artical ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“It is hard to imagine that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili embarked on this risky venture without some sort of approval from the side of the United States.”</p>
<p>The witty Shevardnadze, who is also a former Soviet foreign minister, said the crisis would not cause a new Cold War, as “the new Cold War has long since been instigated by the USA , through the Americans’ so-called missile defence shield in the Czech Republic and Poland.”</p>
<p>Meanwhile, US military planes are flying in “aid” and the US has announced it will henceforth have a permanent presence in Georgia.</p>
<p>Because of the very real threat that Georgian troops, backed by their American friends, could easily try again to destabilise things, the Russians are understandably unwilling to abandon the western Georgian city of Gori, which has a military base.</p>
<p>Jon. were we reading the same artical ?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26705</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26705</guid>
		<description>Danny  Ray
I don&#039;t really see the connection between your comment and the article. In fact it doesn&#039;t even mention the pentagon or the CIA. It seems that you are guilty of your own charge - creating something if not in fact then in your own mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danny  Ray<br />
I don&#8217;t really see the connection between your comment and the article. In fact it doesn&#8217;t even mention the pentagon or the CIA. It seems that you are guilty of your own charge &#8211; creating something if not in fact then in your own mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny Ray</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/08/diplomatic-rubble/#comment-26696</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2557#comment-26696</guid>
		<description>Well, here we go again. Everyone in the world dances to the tune America calls. No one is capable of planning anything without the CIA and the Pentagon telling them how to do anything. 

This is the most racist B.S. in the world. Are you trying to tell us that all the other leaders in the world are too stupid to plan their own operations? People who think this are indeed creating the American Empire if not in fact at least in their own minds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, here we go again. Everyone in the world dances to the tune America calls. No one is capable of planning anything without the CIA and the Pentagon telling them how to do anything. </p>
<p>This is the most racist B.S. in the world. Are you trying to tell us that all the other leaders in the world are too stupid to plan their own operations? People who think this are indeed creating the American Empire if not in fact at least in their own minds.</p>
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