Comments on: A Dirty Adventure — Part 1

By: Aidan

Aidan — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:48:46 +0000

You know, sometimes I wonder how we can consider ourselves ‘progressives’ and still attack anyone who suggests a point of view that does not conform to our own. I mean, all moral reasons aside, at least we should have learned from our defeat in the last century that repressing ideas leads to a political dead end. An intelligent counter argument is the only proper response when one disagrees with a point.
…
So help me, I’m beginning to sound like I agree with John Stuart Mill. I’d better shut up on this point.
…
On the matter of Georgia and Russia, I am opposed to Russia’s invasion of Georgia, just as I am opposed to Georgia’s invasion of Ossetia. (which, I’ll add for heike, is only internationally recognised as part of Georgia because most of the rich and powerful of the world prefer Georgia over Russia). It don’t matter which side started it, both have reacted with the expected slaughter of civilians.
I don’t think that Ossetia or Abkhazia should be independent but only from the rational point of view that they would not be economically viable states, especially after this war business leaves them in rubble. But only if the people of the regions wanted to join Russia instead (and really wanted to, not bullied into an annexation by Putin (wait, it’s Mededev now… yeah right…).
Mostly, though , I watch with dismay (but no surprise) as I see Europe and the U.S. rushing to demand that Russia respect Georgia’s territorial integrity. Good grief, it’s only been half a year since it was Serbia that was being cut up and the big powers were in the reverse seats! Do they really take us all for idiots!? I suppose so…
I used to think that George Orwell was just a bitter, depressed old sod, but it seems that all of the powers involved – on both sides – have this ‘doublethink’ thing down pat.
The silver lining on this whole affair is that it might mean the end of that prat Sakashvili. That’d be good for anyone who cringes when they hear their national leaders calling men like Sakashvili democratic. It’s not democracy when the election campaign boils down to ‘vote for me or I bash your kneecaps’. But that’s another discussion entirely.

-Aidan.

By: bozhidar balkas

bozhidar balkas — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:16:50 +0000

i generally don’t read posts of the people after they say about other people, You think such and such and that makes you a troll or, You’ve said this and that and that makes you stupid, immoral, neocon, etc.
in other words, namecalling merely fills space but conveys no info let alone enlightenment.
of course democrats can be called dems and republicans whatever for identification but even these labels obnubilate the situation.
a democrat maybe a tad left of hitler; a republican a tad left- right of mussolini or the other way around. thank u

By: Hue Longer

Hue Longer — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 06:16:48 +0000

not all opinions are equal and if we can establish definitions, truth finding is just a matter of proper debate. It’ very common for the uncritical mind to actually believe in subjective truth as a means of staving off a threatening education to their ego… “opinions are like assholes”, “that’s just your opinion”, “we should agree to disagree”, and “3 +3 = 5 is a contrary opinion which is just as rational as as 3+3 =6″. But I do like talking to Evie, and don’t think she fits the bill for being a troll.

By: Richard Estes

Richard Estes — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 05:32:03 +0000

for anyone who is interested, a post on my blog about the domestic insights to be gained from the conflict in the Caucasus:

http://amleft.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_amleft_archive.html#5445581529712923549

By: evie

evie — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 04:21:41 +0000

cg, thanks much.

heike, thanks to you too.

By: heike

heike — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:49:39 +0000

Yes, Evie, one could write a very interesting article about message boards. People are very often insular in their approach and loudly reject anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy. I actually think there is more tolerance on right wing outlets like Frontpagemag.com than on this one. I have had some experience with stock message boards and some people get so emotionally attached to their investment that anyone who challenges their orthodoxy gets put on “ignore,” a kind of cyber equivalent of being sent to Cannosa. I’m waiting for the “peace and social justice” crowd to react as a small country is methodically destroyed. If the U.S. were to do the same thing as Russia is doing now, there would be howls, “solidarity” meetings, protests, calls for boycotts and everything else. But if you think this is bad, try one of the Russian sites like http://www.ossetia.ru You can get a general sense of it from a machine translation site but it doesn’t give the flavor of the vulgar slang. If Comrade Estes can’t get himself to understand that what the Russians are doing in Georgia is a “dirty adventure,” then he has lost his moral compass.

By: cg

cg — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:15:20 +0000

Evie, I always thought your comments were honest, realistically informed through personal relations and real life situations far more so than the common speculations of book and article inspired philosophers and intellectuals.
Kinda like the difference between someone who really has milked a cow and someone who hasn’t but knows more about it than you do..

By: evie

evie — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:57:23 +0000

One thing I have noticed at DV is that argument is only “rational” when opinions are supportive of what, apparently, seems to be the same handful of writers and their followers – others, if they post more than a couple of contrary opinions are labeled trolls.

Personally, I agree with poster heike, – but to be politely progressively “dissident” and attempt to avoid the label of “troll” – I must spout that Russia is not so much a threat – it’s the evil doer US, and of course the Zionists/Israel.

Better yet, I will just continue to read and keep silent. Such sites as this do offer insight into the motives and thought behind what is culturally considered “dissent” in the US.

By: Brian Koontz

Brian Koontz — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:39:58 +0000

““Where do they go when they retire?”

Perhaps they just stand back and watch the circle jerk.”

Rational arguments against the “circle jerk” are fine. That’s not what trolls do. Rational argument is the bane of trolls.

Trolls are like evangelical christians, on a mission to save the heathen circle jerkers from themselves. The end result is much like when the US military went into Iraq.

By: mary

mary — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:19:26 +0000

I agree with what you are saying Shabnam and by the way I have already posted that YNet link, together with one other, three posts gack.

By: Shabnam

Shabnam — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:26:27 +0000

People must expose Israelis’ role in this war between Georgia and Russia which is beneficial to Israel. Israel is making billions of dollars by selling it’s WMD to serve puppet of the US, Georgia. People must know that Israelis’ goal is to establish “the greater Israel’ from Mauritania to the Central Asia and this is part of its plan to achieve that. The involvement of Israel in Africa especially in Sudan, Somalia, Congo and Ethiopia is aligned with this goal as well. Israel benefits from more than 5.5 millions deaths in Congo where is rich with natural resources including Diamond, Gold, Uranium, Cobalt, Cupper and other valuable natural resources. Israel has monopoly over Diamond. Israel began selling arms to Georgia since 7 years ago. The military cooperation between the two countries is strong and it is good to know that Davit Kezerashvili, a former Israeli who knows Hebrew was helpful to facilitate this cooperation. On the other hand, Israel has close relationship with Russia through its fifth column, the Zionists inside Russia. The Israelis operation in Georgia was designed to convince the Israeli Aerospace industries to sell different systems to Georgian air force, but they were turned down. The reason is the ‘special’ relations between the Aerospace industries and Russia. It was the sale of three RPVs, in the past three months which made Russian worried. But in any case, in May Israel decided to approve future deals with Georgia only for the sale of non-offensive weapon systems, such as intelligence, and other related materials so Israel to keep Russia in its pocket as well. Once again Israel tries to use every side in the conflict. No country should trust Israel because Israel advances only its own position towards ‘World Government’ with the Zionist leadership on expense of others. This is very clear since Israel using its fifth column, Jewish lobby, the Congress and Senate in the US to wage Zionist war in the Middle East and Africa especially Sudan for ‘regime change’ through destabilization by proxy. The Kurds must realize that their services to Israel does not go well with the interest of the region and will be backlashed. American people must wake up and force out the Zionist fifth columnists who are sitting in the driving seat of the American empire.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3580136,00.html

By: evie

evie — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:56:48 +0000

“Where do they go when they retire?”

Perhaps they just stand back and watch the circle jerk.

By: bozhidar balkas

bozhidar balkas — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:57:22 +0000

heike,
you say, “bush’s policies are disastrous”. was it an oversight not to say to whom it is disastrous?
invasion of afghanistan, palestine, and iraq i evaluate as ‘brilliant’ successes.
but for whom? for uncle sam and his longstanding domestic and foreign policies!!!
the domestics are controled by lies/punishment and alien pops by missilles, bombs, invasions, etc.
personalizing a state policies, russian, american, and others’ is to me a waste of time.
thus it is not yeltsin, stalin, putin, truman, kennedy, clinton, bush, et al that we should dwell on as much as we do but study the histories of the two evil empires for the protreptic value of their respective policies .
for some raqis, US invasion is a criminal action and catastrophic for most of them.
for US citizens, it may be an annoyance. it is opposed on perception, wishes, prediction, rationalization, etc., and not on any panhumanly recognized principle. thank u

By: mary

mary — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 07:55:04 +0000

There’s always a Shlomo somewhere in the deal.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3580136,00.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3580522,00.html

and MrSynec3 you left out the prolific ‘Jaime’ in your list of trolls. Where do they go when they retire?

By: Brian Koontz

Brian Koontz — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 02:21:38 +0000

We only have so much focus to go around. It makes more sense to focus on the greatest evil than on lesser evils. There are many imperial states other than the US. Every state by it’s nature has imperial ambitions – it’s just a matter of whether or not it’s able to achieve those ambitions.

The American state is ridiculously dangerous, to the point of having the potential to annihilate the world. That can’t be said about any other, even Russia and Israel. If that reality changes, the left will change it’s focus.

For those on the left with a focus on the future, the dangers seem to be China and India. Russia not so much. Most of the left leaves the future to the future and deals with the present now.

By: bozhidar balkas

bozhidar balkas — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:12:38 +0000

i am a strong socialist but i affirm that chechnya has the right to be independent. ossetians have that right too.
yes, all empires are evil. that includes russian, chinese, iraqi, afghani, pakistani, indian empires.
however, US has slain/maimed more people post ww2 than any other empire.
in expalestine, US approbates some of the worst crimes against humanity.
eg, it approbates/demands child-, woman-, and manhunting. this crime is now an israeli nat’l sport.
also, one may or may not take into account that canada and US relative to their econo-military-diplomatic might and secure geographic position have less need/ right to attack weaklings than most other evil empires.
because of what i write i’ve been kicked off jerusalem post, haaretz, truthdig, the jewish dily Forward, and alternet.
i think that most people most of the time can handle lies better than the truth and that is why i’m not permitted to post in the above web pages.thank you.

By: MrSynec3

MrSynec3 — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:04:56 +0000

TROLL ALERT: “heike” is the newest RTOLL ON THE BLOCK.

We had “evie”, then “michael kenny” and now we have “heike”.
Please do not waste time and energy with those TROLLS.

By: cg

cg — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:49:39 +0000

An American in Georgia tells it like it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o#

By: brian

brian — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:08:19 +0000

‘Your problem is that you have a red-colored view of the world where the U.S. is the root of all evil ‘

Israel is the Iago in the modern world, and so more nearly the root of all evil. But US has been doing in Georgia what it claims Iran has been doing in Iraq.

By: heike

heike — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:10:23 +0000

You know SOO little about people! I am far away from the “neoconservatives.” Did we impose a neoliberal capitalist system on Russia, policed by the U.S. military? How about China’s experiment in capitalist restoration? Was that our doing as well?
My globe starts with Finland, goes through Estonia, and all the “borderland” states. Khorodovsky was imprisoned because he posed a political threat to the Russian political system. You haven’t responded to all the case studies I pointed out. You simply are bereft of any answers.

My criticism of Russian policy is not meant to whitewash the Bush administration, whose policies have been disastrous in many ways.

Your problem is that you have a red-colored view of the world where the U.S. is the root of all evil (along with its “client states” ) and everyone else gets a free pass. You are so blinded by your “evil America” obsession that you fail to see the evil that lurks elsewhere.