Comments on: Immigration and the Bulldozing of Arcadia http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/immigration-and-the-bulldozing-of-arcadia/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:21:18 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: stephan geras http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/immigration-and-the-bulldozing-of-arcadia/#comment-25295 stephan geras Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:53:38 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2387#comment-25295 true, but in fact the greatest numbers of people come from Mexico. I'm not "implying" anything, I clearly stated that unenlightened self-interest is the main reason why people make certain "choices" while Mr Wagenvoord argues that people can't make choices because they are driven by circumstances and political manipulation, so he blames NAFTA. Let's try to keep this discussion rational. true, but in fact the greatest numbers of people come from Mexico.
I’m not “implying” anything, I clearly stated that unenlightened self-interest is the main reason why people make certain “choices” while Mr Wagenvoord argues that people can’t make choices because they are driven by circumstances and political manipulation, so he blames NAFTA. Let’s try to keep this discussion rational.

]]> By: stephan geras http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/immigration-and-the-bulldozing-of-arcadia/#comment-25287 stephan geras Tue, 22 Jul 2008 15:39:16 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2387#comment-25287 Well, lets say unenlightened self interest has twisted all policy, foreign and domestic and pretty much twisted human thinking. And so the answer to your question is, logically---Head north. So now tell me, since you insist on following this algorhythm of oppressive necessity as a determining factor, why isn't necessity forcing you to go south to work? As an enlightened idealist, is necessity not a factor? Is choice only possible where there is economic priviledge? Is writing a priviledged activity? What would you say about labour pools in NYC that supply cheap labour to non-profits or news media? So say you chose to move south, I believe you could make some difference. Maybe you could help folks to avoid the traps that every smart immigrant has come to realize wait for her/him in the USA. You may even observe that all the fancy bells and whistles we take for granted in the USA quickly lose their importance. I've met people who've gone to Latin America and from nothing, started small co-operative businesses with locals who didn't have the confidence, money, or organizational ability. And they succesfully export products to the USA. End of slavery-- beginning of self determination and choice. Well, lets say unenlightened self interest has twisted all policy, foreign and domestic and pretty much twisted human thinking.
And so the answer to your question is, logically—Head north. So now tell me, since you insist on following this algorhythm of oppressive necessity as a determining factor, why isn’t necessity forcing you to go south to work? As an enlightened idealist, is necessity not a factor? Is choice only possible where there is economic priviledge? Is writing a priviledged activity? What would you say about labour pools in NYC that supply cheap labour to non-profits or news media?
So say you chose to move south, I believe you could make some difference. Maybe you could help folks to avoid the traps that every smart immigrant has come to realize wait for her/him in the USA. You may even observe that all the fancy bells and whistles we take for granted in the USA quickly lose their importance. I’ve met people who’ve gone to Latin America and from nothing, started small co-operative businesses with locals who didn’t have the confidence, money, or organizational ability. And they succesfully export products to the USA. End of slavery– beginning of self determination and choice.

]]> By: Case Wagenvoord http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/immigration-and-the-bulldozing-of-arcadia/#comment-25275 Case Wagenvoord Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:26:34 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2387#comment-25275 The influx of undocumented Latinos into the United States is the direct result of our misguided policies. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) decimated agriculture in Mexico. Since its inception in 1994, an average of 600 Mexican farmers, daily, have been forced off their land. So, what are they going to do, watch their families go hungry or head north? An excellent overview of the problem can be found at http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/econ/2003/1013mexiconafta.htm. The influx of undocumented Latinos into the United States is the direct result of our misguided policies. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) decimated agriculture in Mexico. Since its inception in 1994, an average of 600 Mexican farmers, daily, have been forced off their land. So, what are they going to do, watch their families go hungry or head north?

An excellent overview of the problem can be found at http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/econ/2003/1013mexiconafta.htm.

]]> By: stephan geras http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/immigration-and-the-bulldozing-of-arcadia/#comment-25270 stephan geras Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:04:44 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2387#comment-25270 There is in this country a twisted, almost pathological duality, hypocrisy. I wonder why crossing the borders of the USA without papers and earning money by working for slave wages just to live well with quadruple the value of one hour's work in country of origin is any different from crossing borders anywhere in the workl without papers or authorization to work, even if authorization is a scam to swindle money, like in mexico. The Russian government has opened borders to poorer workers from Central Asian countries whose revolutions have been supported by the USA (which alienated USA from the dictatorial idiots who want to cling to power there-very starnge); same situation, cheap labor, Realpolitic, a controlled migrant workforce which could just as easily be shut down when Putin et all are finished using them. Rational oversight means rational strategies for managing production and labor which do more than just satisfy a ravenous desire to own, to aquire, to have what the jone's have. But how could we live with democracy then? Mexicans are nice people-just don't have a clue. There is in this country a twisted, almost pathological duality, hypocrisy. I wonder why crossing the borders of the USA without papers and earning money by working for slave wages just to live well with quadruple the value of one hour’s work in country of origin is any different from crossing borders anywhere in the workl without papers or authorization to work, even if authorization is a scam to swindle money, like in mexico. The Russian government has opened borders to poorer workers from Central Asian countries whose revolutions have been supported by the USA (which alienated USA from the dictatorial idiots who want to cling to power there-very starnge); same situation, cheap labor, Realpolitic, a controlled migrant workforce which could just as easily be shut down when Putin et all are finished using them. Rational oversight means rational strategies for managing production and labor which do more than just satisfy a ravenous desire to own, to aquire, to have what the jone’s have. But how could we live with democracy then? Mexicans are nice people-just don’t have a clue.

]]> By: Sunil Sharma http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/immigration-and-the-bulldozing-of-arcadia/#comment-25253 Sunil Sharma Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:12:36 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2387#comment-25253 Hi Sam, We agree that the term "illegals" is offensive, and meant to have the word in quotation marks, which I've now corrected. Thanks, -- Sunil Hi Sam,

We agree that the term “illegals” is offensive, and meant to have the word in quotation marks, which I’ve now corrected.

Thanks,

– Sunil

]]> By: Sam http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/immigration-and-the-bulldozing-of-arcadia/#comment-25251 Sam Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:41:49 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2387#comment-25251 The article uses the language "illegals" which I find offensive. No human being is "illegal" or an "alien" regardless of where on the planet a person comes from. Other than that, I appreciate the tone of the article. It doesn't matter where I go, I read so much hatred and bigotry directed at Latinos/Hispanics. No other immigrant group. Just Latinos/Hispanics. Even on so-called "progressive" sites I read this hatred. Most people seem to need somebody to hate, even so-called "progressives." And some/many newspapers are using hate to try to increase their circulation and website hits. I live in a very liberal city but the newspaper for the city has always been right-wing and the rabids from the suburbs who hate the city and anything about it pretty much saturate their forum with their hate especially towards undocumented immigrants. And my city is a Sanctuary City. So this newspaper pumps out articles as often as they can railing against undocumented immigrants, the homeless, bicyclists, our mayor, the liberal board of supervisors, among other topics using all of that as bait for the rabid haters to pour on the site---most likely after they listen to Michael Savage and his "Hate Talk"---to give the site hits so they can tell their advertisers that their website gets so many hits to merit the advertising rates. I am so tired of the hate. If it weren't undocumented immigrants it would be someone else that people need to hate. Not long ago the California governor sat before a Latino/Hispanic audience which included the Spanish language television networks. He had the gall to tell Latinos/Hispanics to turn OFF Spanish language television and learn English, when the man can barely speak English himself. I don't know how this nut thought that Latinos/Hispanics were supposed to stay informed on a day-to-day basis by turning off the Spanish networks, even if they are in the process of learning English, since one doesn't learn a language overnight. Since the California governor said that, I have since turned ON the Spanish language networks (television and internet radio) and I'm slowly learning Spanish. And at some point in the near future, I plan to study Spanish at my local city college. Libertad y Paz. The article uses the language “illegals” which I find offensive. No human being is “illegal” or an “alien” regardless of where on the planet a person comes from.

Other than that, I appreciate the tone of the article.

It doesn’t matter where I go, I read so much hatred and bigotry directed at Latinos/Hispanics. No other immigrant group. Just Latinos/Hispanics. Even on so-called “progressive” sites I read this hatred. Most people seem to need somebody to hate, even so-called “progressives.” And some/many newspapers are using hate to try to increase their circulation and website hits.

I live in a very liberal city but the newspaper for the city has always been right-wing and the rabids from the suburbs who hate the city and anything about it pretty much saturate their forum with their hate especially towards undocumented immigrants. And my city is a Sanctuary City. So this newspaper pumps out articles as often as they can railing against undocumented immigrants, the homeless, bicyclists, our mayor, the liberal board of supervisors, among other topics using all of that as bait for the rabid haters to pour on the site—most likely after they listen to Michael Savage and his “Hate Talk”—to give the site hits so they can tell their advertisers that their website gets so many hits to merit the advertising rates.

I am so tired of the hate. If it weren’t undocumented immigrants it would be someone else that people need to hate.

Not long ago the California governor sat before a Latino/Hispanic audience which included the Spanish language television networks. He had the gall to tell Latinos/Hispanics to turn OFF Spanish language television and learn English, when the man can barely speak English himself. I don’t know how this nut thought that Latinos/Hispanics were supposed to stay informed on a day-to-day basis by turning off the Spanish networks, even if they are in the process of learning English, since one doesn’t learn a language overnight.

Since the California governor said that, I have since turned ON the Spanish language networks (television and internet radio) and I’m slowly learning Spanish. And at some point in the near future, I plan to study Spanish at my local city college.

Libertad y Paz.

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