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	<title>Comments on: The Harsh Reality of the Middle East Conflict</title>
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	<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/</link>
	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-22861</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-22861</guid>
		<description>And thanks to Ashley and Eileen for joining Evie as opinionated and outspoken female contributors to posts here at Dissident Voice.  (Assuming of course you are not males using female monikers.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And thanks to Ashley and Eileen for joining Evie as opinionated and outspoken female contributors to posts here at Dissident Voice.  (Assuming of course you are not males using female monikers.)</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-22859</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-22859</guid>
		<description>Thanks, bozhidar.   I appreciate your tri-furcation of the term &quot;Jew.&quot;  I&#039;m also certain from your posts that you do not think the average American has more than the foggiest notion of ashkenazim, mizrahim, or sephardim.  No, to that most fortunate personage, a Jew is a Jew.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, bozhidar.   I appreciate your tri-furcation of the term &#8220;Jew.&#8221;  I&#8217;m also certain from your posts that you do not think the average American has more than the foggiest notion of ashkenazim, mizrahim, or sephardim.  No, to that most fortunate personage, a Jew is a Jew.</p>
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		<title>By: ashley</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-20337</link>
		<dc:creator>ashley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 02:34:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-20337</guid>
		<description>Hugh, I apologize for this answer which basically repeated what I had previously posted. I was confusing this thread with one on a recent Atzmon article and did not read my post here before responding!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugh, I apologize for this answer which basically repeated what I had previously posted. I was confusing this thread with one on a recent Atzmon article and did not read my post here before responding!</p>
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		<title>By: ashley</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-20336</link>
		<dc:creator>ashley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 02:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-20336</guid>
		<description>Hugh, when I checked back here a while back there were no responses so I missed all the subsequent contributions including your question.

First off: I am no expert on this! But one voices opinions in these places so here goes:

I have followed on various lists the One-State initiative and think that, fundamentally, it is the only way to go.  Simply put you have a homeland for Jewish people without displacing and oppressing the indigenous population which, both ironically and tragically, contains more truly semitic peoples who are the descendants of the original Jews who never occupied that territory continuously for all that long anyway, than the so-called Jewish peoples who are now sanctioned by international law to move there and displace them.

The country was set up by international legal fiat via the newly constituted United Nations. The first few years of the UN were dominated by the Israel question - perhaps the main reason it was set up some might argue - and, tragically, the way they went about it violated the underlying principles of the UN charter which - I paraphrase from vague memory - has something to do with protecting the rights of people to live and determine their own nationhoods and so on, i.e. to protect the sovereignty of peoples, protect them against invasions and so forth. NONE of the Arab states voted in favor of creating this new State in the way it was done, the Palestinians were not granted Statehood nor absorbed into any existing state in the region which was still in turmoil following the recent collapse of the Ottoman Empire after which Western Powers basically managed the show. Most of the current states took birth first on a knapkin sketch made by Churchill on a dining table, for example. 

So one option - which I do not offer as being practical only worthy of intellectual consideration to put things into perspective - is simply that just as the State of Israel was constituted by the deus ex machina of international legal fiat, so also could a One-State solution be similarly mandated from on high and then enforced by the member states. 

Of course, given the way influence and power are distributed in the UN and the world in general, this is not feasible. However, a One State solution, a state wherein both Jewish and Palestinian citizens live together, could work. And indeed Switzerland - with its 16(?) distinct Cantons, might well be the correct model to follow since that way you can have distinct &#039;Arab&#039; and &#039;Jewish&#039; zones scattered throughout the &#039;nation&#039; with more emphasis on local governance than a centralised National government which would be cause for constant conflict as one side might try to dominate the other forevermore.

More practically speaking I think it is time - and it is now starting gradually - that more &#039;liberal&#039; Jewish lobbies are formed, especially in the US, who push hard with concerted influence emulating the way the Likudniks have operated for decades in the US, to push America into no longer supporting a radical, extremist approach and, by withdrawing such support, allowing the people on the ground to come to a workable solution.

The problem has always been the huge amount of international support, both financial and political, that the Zionist leadership networks have had which has empowered them to pursue essentially illegal, immoral and ultimately unsatisfactory policies in the country. Once that support system is undermined, hopefully in a positive way, things could change. As long as they are not, the situation is hopeless and nor will the people on the ground be able to self-determine their respective destinies, supposedly what the UN - which created this mess in the first place - was established to ensure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugh, when I checked back here a while back there were no responses so I missed all the subsequent contributions including your question.</p>
<p>First off: I am no expert on this! But one voices opinions in these places so here goes:</p>
<p>I have followed on various lists the One-State initiative and think that, fundamentally, it is the only way to go.  Simply put you have a homeland for Jewish people without displacing and oppressing the indigenous population which, both ironically and tragically, contains more truly semitic peoples who are the descendants of the original Jews who never occupied that territory continuously for all that long anyway, than the so-called Jewish peoples who are now sanctioned by international law to move there and displace them.</p>
<p>The country was set up by international legal fiat via the newly constituted United Nations. The first few years of the UN were dominated by the Israel question &#8211; perhaps the main reason it was set up some might argue &#8211; and, tragically, the way they went about it violated the underlying principles of the UN charter which &#8211; I paraphrase from vague memory &#8211; has something to do with protecting the rights of people to live and determine their own nationhoods and so on, i.e. to protect the sovereignty of peoples, protect them against invasions and so forth. NONE of the Arab states voted in favor of creating this new State in the way it was done, the Palestinians were not granted Statehood nor absorbed into any existing state in the region which was still in turmoil following the recent collapse of the Ottoman Empire after which Western Powers basically managed the show. Most of the current states took birth first on a knapkin sketch made by Churchill on a dining table, for example. </p>
<p>So one option &#8211; which I do not offer as being practical only worthy of intellectual consideration to put things into perspective &#8211; is simply that just as the State of Israel was constituted by the deus ex machina of international legal fiat, so also could a One-State solution be similarly mandated from on high and then enforced by the member states. </p>
<p>Of course, given the way influence and power are distributed in the UN and the world in general, this is not feasible. However, a One State solution, a state wherein both Jewish and Palestinian citizens live together, could work. And indeed Switzerland &#8211; with its 16(?) distinct Cantons, might well be the correct model to follow since that way you can have distinct &#8216;Arab&#8217; and &#8216;Jewish&#8217; zones scattered throughout the &#8216;nation&#8217; with more emphasis on local governance than a centralised National government which would be cause for constant conflict as one side might try to dominate the other forevermore.</p>
<p>More practically speaking I think it is time &#8211; and it is now starting gradually &#8211; that more &#8216;liberal&#8217; Jewish lobbies are formed, especially in the US, who push hard with concerted influence emulating the way the Likudniks have operated for decades in the US, to push America into no longer supporting a radical, extremist approach and, by withdrawing such support, allowing the people on the ground to come to a workable solution.</p>
<p>The problem has always been the huge amount of international support, both financial and political, that the Zionist leadership networks have had which has empowered them to pursue essentially illegal, immoral and ultimately unsatisfactory policies in the country. Once that support system is undermined, hopefully in a positive way, things could change. As long as they are not, the situation is hopeless and nor will the people on the ground be able to self-determine their respective destinies, supposedly what the UN &#8211; which created this mess in the first place &#8211; was established to ensure.</p>
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		<title>By: Giorgio</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-20059</link>
		<dc:creator>Giorgio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 19:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-20059</guid>
		<description>&#039;american structure of governance is one the best ever designed for controling domestic and world pops.&#039; EXACTLY!

And the World is increasingly being dominated by a tiny minority of people, mainly zionists, Rothschilds, and their pliable goyms/gentiles...
By the next century, I guess, 0.00000001 percent of these guys will be calling ths shots on the rest of us,i.e.,  the other 99.99999999% controlled by inbedded chips in ones body from birth, etc...
George Orwell, I think, couldn&#039;t even imagine this much. His 1984 is, by comparison, PARADISE!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;american structure of governance is one the best ever designed for controling domestic and world pops.&#8217; EXACTLY!</p>
<p>And the World is increasingly being dominated by a tiny minority of people, mainly zionists, Rothschilds, and their pliable goyms/gentiles&#8230;<br />
By the next century, I guess, 0.00000001 percent of these guys will be calling ths shots on the rest of us,i.e.,  the other 99.99999999% controlled by inbedded chips in ones body from birth, etc&#8230;<br />
George Orwell, I think, couldn&#8217;t even imagine this much. His 1984 is, by comparison, PARADISE!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: bozhidar balkas</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19981</link>
		<dc:creator>bozhidar balkas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2008 12:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19981</guid>
		<description>eileen, 
yes, i agree, israel  is not  democratic. just like to  add  that  no land i  know  of  is  democratic.
switzerland has, as far  as  i  know,  the  fairest  structure  of  governance.
american  structure  of  governance  is  one  the  best  ever  designed  for  controling  domestic    and  world  pops.  thank u.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>eileen,<br />
yes, i agree, israel  is not  democratic. just like to  add  that  no land i  know  of  is  democratic.<br />
switzerland has, as far  as  i  know,  the  fairest  structure  of  governance.<br />
american  structure  of  governance  is  one  the  best  ever  designed  for  controling  domestic    and  world  pops.  thank u.</p>
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		<title>By: eileen fleming</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19950</link>
		<dc:creator>eileen fleming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 23:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19950</guid>
		<description>&quot;Israel is a not a democracy but is an Ethnocracy, meaning a country run and controlled by a national group with some democratic elements but set up with Jews in control and structured to keep them in control.”-Jeff Halper, Founder and Coordinator of ICAHD/Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and a Noble Peace Prize Nominee for 2006  to me during one of my 5 trips to Israel Palestine.

The problem is NOT with the Jews, but with the corrupted Zionist ideology that presupposes a particular people are superior, more chosen, more worthy and loved by God than any other.

JUSTICE and ONLY JUSTICE: which means upholding International Law and equal human Rights for ALL can ever reap security for Israel and bring peace to our dysfunctional  world.


Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/ 
Author &quot;Keep Hope Alive&quot; and &quot;Memoirs of a Nice Irish American &#039;Girl&#039;s&#039; Life in Occupied Territory&quot;
Producer &quot;30 Minutes With Vanunu&quot; and &quot;13 Minutes with Vanunu&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Israel is a not a democracy but is an Ethnocracy, meaning a country run and controlled by a national group with some democratic elements but set up with Jews in control and structured to keep them in control.”-Jeff Halper, Founder and Coordinator of ICAHD/Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and a Noble Peace Prize Nominee for 2006  to me during one of my 5 trips to Israel Palestine.</p>
<p>The problem is NOT with the Jews, but with the corrupted Zionist ideology that presupposes a particular people are superior, more chosen, more worthy and loved by God than any other.</p>
<p>JUSTICE and ONLY JUSTICE: which means upholding International Law and equal human Rights for ALL can ever reap security for Israel and bring peace to our dysfunctional  world.</p>
<p>Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor WAWA:<br />
<a href="http://www.wearewideawake.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.wearewideawake.org/</a><br />
Author &#8220;Keep Hope Alive&#8221; and &#8220;Memoirs of a Nice Irish American &#8216;Girl&#8217;s&#8217; Life in Occupied Territory&#8221;<br />
Producer &#8220;30 Minutes With Vanunu&#8221; and &#8220;13 Minutes with Vanunu&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: bozhidar balkas</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19936</link>
		<dc:creator>bozhidar balkas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 21:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19936</guid>
		<description>lloyd  rowsey
re:  11th commandment, &quot;Thou  shall  not  confuse jews with  israelis&quot;.
i respectfully point  out  that   there  are  three distinct  ethnic  groups  claiming  to be  jews:
 euroasian-semitic  people, also known  as  ashkenazim,  may have little  semitic blood  in their  veins.  some look more  germanic/polish  than  germans  or  poles.  also these are, to me,   the real  trouble makers; and not just since first  zionist world congress  at  basle  but  ever  since  they spread  from asia to europe.
mizrahim  may be considered  jews along  with some  sephardim. and  most mizrahim and possbibly  sephardim, as far as i know,  are in israel; used  as  a cannon fodder  for  eroasians. thank u.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lloyd  rowsey<br />
re:  11th commandment, &#8220;Thou  shall  not  confuse jews with  israelis&#8221;.<br />
i respectfully point  out  that   there  are  three distinct  ethnic  groups  claiming  to be  jews:<br />
 euroasian-semitic  people, also known  as  ashkenazim,  may have little  semitic blood  in their  veins.  some look more  germanic/polish  than  germans  or  poles.  also these are, to me,   the real  trouble makers; and not just since first  zionist world congress  at  basle  but  ever  since  they spread  from asia to europe.<br />
mizrahim  may be considered  jews along  with some  sephardim. and  most mizrahim and possbibly  sephardim, as far as i know,  are in israel; used  as  a cannon fodder  for  eroasians. thank u.</p>
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		<title>By: Giorgio</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19895</link>
		<dc:creator>Giorgio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 13:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19895</guid>
		<description>&quot;Frankly, what’s so sacrosanct about that measly STATE of ISRAEL???&quot;

Indeed, why should the World show any respect for  that miserly STATE of ISRAEL?  A state that ignores all UN resolutions, is unprincipled and immoral, rides roughshod over  any appeals for decency and restraint and uses the Holocaust as an open license to humiliate and murder other disadvantged people, shits on their doorstep as Amira Hass has reported, thinking that their shit is holier than anybody else&#039;s, and to top it all show a wacko, weird meanness of character that would make  Shylock look like a benevolent humanitarian when, for political convinience , they are forced to abandon unviable settlements,  bulldoze the houses left behind so that the Palestinians won&#039;t make use of them, and delight  by  a warped sense of humour watching  them clearing the rubble and shit after they left.
Is this the epitome of well over 5000 years of  so called Judaic &#039;civilization&#039; or a symptom of  very serious collective derangement and insanity? 
The former Israel PM Begin self-diagnosed himself and his nation when he quipped:
THERE  IS  NO  BUSINESS  LIKE  HOLOCAUST  BUSINESS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Frankly, what’s so sacrosanct about that measly STATE of ISRAEL???&#8221;</p>
<p>Indeed, why should the World show any respect for  that miserly STATE of ISRAEL?  A state that ignores all UN resolutions, is unprincipled and immoral, rides roughshod over  any appeals for decency and restraint and uses the Holocaust as an open license to humiliate and murder other disadvantged people, shits on their doorstep as Amira Hass has reported, thinking that their shit is holier than anybody else&#8217;s, and to top it all show a wacko, weird meanness of character that would make  Shylock look like a benevolent humanitarian when, for political convinience , they are forced to abandon unviable settlements,  bulldoze the houses left behind so that the Palestinians won&#8217;t make use of them, and delight  by  a warped sense of humour watching  them clearing the rubble and shit after they left.<br />
Is this the epitome of well over 5000 years of  so called Judaic &#8216;civilization&#8217; or a symptom of  very serious collective derangement and insanity?<br />
The former Israel PM Begin self-diagnosed himself and his nation when he quipped:<br />
THERE  IS  NO  BUSINESS  LIKE  HOLOCAUST  BUSINESS.</p>
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		<title>By: Giorgio</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19886</link>
		<dc:creator>Giorgio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 11:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19886</guid>
		<description>Ashley made a good point which reminded of a joke told me by a jewish friend some years ago which went something like this:  The jews, when Moses had led them out Egypt, lamented that he had taken them to the wrong place. He should have taken a turn and led them to the oil rich region of Arabia and settle them there. 
As for the &#039;financial elites&#039;  having a hand and control of the pie, wasn&#039;t  it Rothschild who put it neatly when he stated &quot;give me control over a nation&#039;s currency ( and by implication, its natural resources, like oil)and I care not who makes its laws&quot; ?
No wonder Ron Paul, if president, would  abolish the Reverve Bank. Would you blame him? 
....
&quot;So how would you “reconstitute” Israel? 
Ask them all politely to leave?
Sounds like a Nazi plan to me. Either that or you’re brain dead.&quot;

YES, mate, ask them &#039;politely to leave&#039; !
And if they didn&#039;t, KICK  THEM OUT...just as they have been kicking  the Palestinians out of their land for the last 60 years...
If the treatment is good for the goose why shouldn&#039;t it be just as good for the gander?
Frankly, what&#039;s so sacrosanct about that measly  STATE of ISRAEL???
As I pointed out earlier they should move  out to America to a region similar in size and climate where they would live happily and left to multiply to their heart&#039;s content, forever after...
What&#039;s so Nazi about that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ashley made a good point which reminded of a joke told me by a jewish friend some years ago which went something like this:  The jews, when Moses had led them out Egypt, lamented that he had taken them to the wrong place. He should have taken a turn and led them to the oil rich region of Arabia and settle them there.<br />
As for the &#8216;financial elites&#8217;  having a hand and control of the pie, wasn&#8217;t  it Rothschild who put it neatly when he stated &#8220;give me control over a nation&#8217;s currency ( and by implication, its natural resources, like oil)and I care not who makes its laws&#8221; ?<br />
No wonder Ron Paul, if president, would  abolish the Reverve Bank. Would you blame him?<br />
&#8230;.<br />
&#8220;So how would you “reconstitute” Israel?<br />
Ask them all politely to leave?<br />
Sounds like a Nazi plan to me. Either that or you’re brain dead.&#8221;</p>
<p>YES, mate, ask them &#8216;politely to leave&#8217; !<br />
And if they didn&#8217;t, KICK  THEM OUT&#8230;just as they have been kicking  the Palestinians out of their land for the last 60 years&#8230;<br />
If the treatment is good for the goose why shouldn&#8217;t it be just as good for the gander?<br />
Frankly, what&#8217;s so sacrosanct about that measly  STATE of ISRAEL???<br />
As I pointed out earlier they should move  out to America to a region similar in size and climate where they would live happily and left to multiply to their heart&#8217;s content, forever after&#8230;<br />
What&#8217;s so Nazi about that?</p>
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		<title>By: sk</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19880</link>
		<dc:creator>sk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 07:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19880</guid>
		<description>Sounds like a Nazi plan? I wonder how that notion entered your mind...could &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/fline/fl1908/19080100.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; statement by an Israeli military officer have triggered the association?
&lt;blockquote&gt;
If our job is to seize a densely packed refugee camp or take over the Nablus Casbah, and if this job is to be given to an Israeli officer to carry out without casualties he must before all else analyse and bring together the lessons of past battles, even--shocking though this might appear--to analyse how the German Army operated in the Warsaw Ghetto.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like a Nazi plan? I wonder how that notion entered your mind&#8230;could <a href="http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/fline/fl1908/19080100.htm" rel="nofollow">this</a> statement by an Israeli military officer have triggered the association?</p>
<blockquote><p>
If our job is to seize a densely packed refugee camp or take over the Nablus Casbah, and if this job is to be given to an Israeli officer to carry out without casualties he must before all else analyse and bring together the lessons of past battles, even&#8211;shocking though this might appear&#8211;to analyse how the German Army operated in the Warsaw Ghetto.
</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19877</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 04:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19877</guid>
		<description>You know what else sounds like a Nazi plan?
Gaza.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know what else sounds like a Nazi plan?<br />
Gaza.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19874</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 02:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19874</guid>
		<description>So how would you &quot;reconstitute&quot; Israel? 

Ask them all politely to leave?

Sounds like a Nazi plan to me. Either that or you&#039;re brain dead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So how would you &#8220;reconstitute&#8221; Israel? </p>
<p>Ask them all politely to leave?</p>
<p>Sounds like a Nazi plan to me. Either that or you&#8217;re brain dead.</p>
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		<title>By: ashley</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19866</link>
		<dc:creator>ashley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 00:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19866</guid>
		<description>This excellent article misses a key point: the creation and ongoing existence of Israel are not due to UN resolutions, European guilt and suchlike but rather concerted political effort on the part of groups that have sufficient influence to achieve their aims. Such influence can only be derived from being plugged into dominant systems/networks etc.  My suspicion is that this is to be found in the so-called &#039;financial elites&#039; mainly found in the &#039;banking sector&#039; and suchlike, often shorthanded into &#039;corporate ruling elites&#039;. I think &#039;financial sector elites&#039; is more accurate although the two often overlap. 

In any case, as long as these amorphous whatever-they-are networks &#039;control&#039; the leadership paradigms at play, Israel will continue as such. Clearly it is an illegal, immoral, unjustified State. As mentioned above, the very fact that non-jewish &#039;jews&#039; with not a drop of &#039;semitic&#039; blood have the right, under UN-sanctioned bla-bla-bla international law to displace indigenous peoples  (most of whom are the actual, living descendants of the original &#039;Jews&#039;) demonstrates just how perverse the entire enterprise is.

This doesn&#039;t mean that most individual Israelis are anything other than 99% of ordinary people everywhere: fundamentally decent and desirous of leading decent lives with decent families in a decent society and overly influenced by global/national narratives that exaggerate their own purity and demonize their &#039;enemies&#039; and so forth.

But the fact is: as long as the current ruling elites exist as such, so will Israel. 

Now, I happen to believe that a bonafide one-state solution could be found, but not with the current &#039;Zionist&#039; leadership. And since there is little likelihood of that leadership dissolving unless there is a far larger economic collapse along with a total breakdown of the current system, Israel will continue as such, and the Palestinians will continue to be unjustly colonized, abused, displaced and murdered.

In other words, the creation of the state of Israel was due to forces far beyond the immediate location of the state and the solution to the current immoral, illegal dysfunction will similarly be found outside the immediate situation and the players involved on both sides.  It&#039;s a terrible, and fundamentally unworkable situation which, along with many other unfortunate aspects, undermined the viability and authenticity of the United Nations formed after the global Holocaust known as WWII. 

So just as Israel as such needs to be dissolved and either reconstituted properly or not, so also the UN, and so also the current world financial system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This excellent article misses a key point: the creation and ongoing existence of Israel are not due to UN resolutions, European guilt and suchlike but rather concerted political effort on the part of groups that have sufficient influence to achieve their aims. Such influence can only be derived from being plugged into dominant systems/networks etc.  My suspicion is that this is to be found in the so-called &#8216;financial elites&#8217; mainly found in the &#8216;banking sector&#8217; and suchlike, often shorthanded into &#8216;corporate ruling elites&#8217;. I think &#8216;financial sector elites&#8217; is more accurate although the two often overlap. </p>
<p>In any case, as long as these amorphous whatever-they-are networks &#8216;control&#8217; the leadership paradigms at play, Israel will continue as such. Clearly it is an illegal, immoral, unjustified State. As mentioned above, the very fact that non-jewish &#8216;jews&#8217; with not a drop of &#8216;semitic&#8217; blood have the right, under UN-sanctioned bla-bla-bla international law to displace indigenous peoples  (most of whom are the actual, living descendants of the original &#8216;Jews&#8217;) demonstrates just how perverse the entire enterprise is.</p>
<p>This doesn&#8217;t mean that most individual Israelis are anything other than 99% of ordinary people everywhere: fundamentally decent and desirous of leading decent lives with decent families in a decent society and overly influenced by global/national narratives that exaggerate their own purity and demonize their &#8216;enemies&#8217; and so forth.</p>
<p>But the fact is: as long as the current ruling elites exist as such, so will Israel. </p>
<p>Now, I happen to believe that a bonafide one-state solution could be found, but not with the current &#8216;Zionist&#8217; leadership. And since there is little likelihood of that leadership dissolving unless there is a far larger economic collapse along with a total breakdown of the current system, Israel will continue as such, and the Palestinians will continue to be unjustly colonized, abused, displaced and murdered.</p>
<p>In other words, the creation of the state of Israel was due to forces far beyond the immediate location of the state and the solution to the current immoral, illegal dysfunction will similarly be found outside the immediate situation and the players involved on both sides.  It&#8217;s a terrible, and fundamentally unworkable situation which, along with many other unfortunate aspects, undermined the viability and authenticity of the United Nations formed after the global Holocaust known as WWII. </p>
<p>So just as Israel as such needs to be dissolved and either reconstituted properly or not, so also the UN, and so also the current world financial system.</p>
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		<title>By: Giorgio</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19865</link>
		<dc:creator>Giorgio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 00:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19865</guid>
		<description>And here is my 11th Commandment:

Thou shalt not (rampantly) ABUSE your POWER, be it financial, military or whatever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And here is my 11th Commandment:</p>
<p>Thou shalt not (rampantly) ABUSE your POWER, be it financial, military or whatever.</p>
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		<title>By: bozhidar balkas</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19855</link>
		<dc:creator>bozhidar balkas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 18:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19855</guid>
		<description>lloyd rowsey. 
thanx for the info.
i&#039;m glad t hear from  a historian who concurs with my  assertion that ashekenazim have no or little semitic blood.  mizrahim, if not pure judeans/jews,  may be pure semites. 
i also  have noticed yrs ago that the dark  jews are being used  as cannon fodder for  an euro-khazaro-semitic dream  that&#039;s become our nightmare. by our nightmare,  i mean palestinian nightmare for a century now;  and  in future  for mizrahim.
thre&#039;s no way  that several  bn people will   accept  judaist/zionist misteachings; least of all  its crimes;  and against yet another tinctured people.
thanx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lloyd rowsey.<br />
thanx for the info.<br />
i&#8217;m glad t hear from  a historian who concurs with my  assertion that ashekenazim have no or little semitic blood.  mizrahim, if not pure judeans/jews,  may be pure semites.<br />
i also  have noticed yrs ago that the dark  jews are being used  as cannon fodder for  an euro-khazaro-semitic dream  that&#8217;s become our nightmare. by our nightmare,  i mean palestinian nightmare for a century now;  and  in future  for mizrahim.<br />
thre&#8217;s no way  that several  bn people will   accept  judaist/zionist misteachings; least of all  its crimes;  and against yet another tinctured people.<br />
thanx</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19848</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 16:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19848</guid>
		<description>Lloyd, here&#039;s my 11th Commandment.
Thou shall not confuse Israelis with Americans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lloyd, here&#8217;s my 11th Commandment.<br />
Thou shall not confuse Israelis with Americans.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19840</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 14:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19840</guid>
		<description>So, I lied.

A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples (Paperback), by Ilan Pappe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, I lied.</p>
<p>A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples (Paperback), by Ilan Pappe.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19838</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 14:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19838</guid>
		<description>Correction, and last post, I promise.    The following book, reviewed by Professor Holstun, looks to be the best book on the subject of Israel-Palestine, presently available from Amazon.com and widely read in the United States.  

79 of 95 people found the following review helpful: 
Binationial Solidarity, February 23, 2004 
By  JAMES R HOLSTUN (Buffalo, New York United States) - See all my reviews 

Pappe, the intellectually courageous Israeli &quot;New Historian,&quot; has written a superb history for general readers. What&#039;s unusual about this book is (1) its attempt to present the histories of both peoples, (2) its effort to get outside the potted nationalist narratives of both peoples, and (3) its profound solidarity with the Palestinian people in their struggles against expulsion and occupation. As Pappe says, &quot;This book is written by one who admits compassion for the colonized, not the colonizer; who sympathizes with the occupied and not the occupiers; and sides with the workers not the bosses. He feels for women in distress, and has little admiration for men in command.&quot;
Pappe locates the struggle for land at the very center of this narrative, and he does not hesitate to call the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948 an act of &quot;ethnic cleansing,&quot; proceeding under the aegis of the Zionist &quot;Plan D,&quot; which systematically drove 700,000 Palestinian Arabs from their villages. At the same time, he notes the chronically ineffective Palestinian leadership, from the clan rivalries of Palestinian &quot;notables&quot; that made any unified resistance to British and Zionist encroachments impossible, to the top-down rule of the Palestinian Authority, which cooperated in the disaster of Oslo and sidelined average, suffering Palestinians in Israel, under occupation, and in exile. He notes the complexities of opinion and experience among Jews in Palestine and Israel, including those early Zionists who hoped from the beginning for a binational secular state, and the Mizrahi or Arab Jews, who faced considerable discrimination at the hands of Ashkenazi or European Jews. And with a realistic but hopeful eye on Palestine&#039;s future, he highlights what &quot;The Urge for Co-habitation&quot; in Mandate Palestine, and even in Israel. He finds resources for hope in the history of his own Haifa during the 1920s, when it &quot;became the site of the most exciting experience of class solidarity and bi-national, or even a-national cooperation.&quot; For instance, Jewish workers and Arab workers (Palestinian, Syrian, and Egyptian) came together in the first Palestinian trade union, which united workers in the railway, telegraphic, and postal services against their British employers. 

Pappe&#039;s keen, historians&#039; eye for the complexities of lived experience on both sides is particularly welcome today, when reductive scholar-warriors like Benny Morris are willing to present Palestine&#039;s past and future as a conflict between Zionist &quot;civilization&quot; and Arab-Islamic &quot;barbarism,&quot; and when Ariel Sharon seems to see a wall of concrete tombstones festooned with guard towers as Israel&#039;s last best hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction, and last post, I promise.    The following book, reviewed by Professor Holstun, looks to be the best book on the subject of Israel-Palestine, presently available from Amazon.com and widely read in the United States.  </p>
<p>79 of 95 people found the following review helpful:<br />
Binationial Solidarity, February 23, 2004<br />
By  JAMES R HOLSTUN (Buffalo, New York United States) &#8211; See all my reviews </p>
<p>Pappe, the intellectually courageous Israeli &#8220;New Historian,&#8221; has written a superb history for general readers. What&#8217;s unusual about this book is (1) its attempt to present the histories of both peoples, (2) its effort to get outside the potted nationalist narratives of both peoples, and (3) its profound solidarity with the Palestinian people in their struggles against expulsion and occupation. As Pappe says, &#8220;This book is written by one who admits compassion for the colonized, not the colonizer; who sympathizes with the occupied and not the occupiers; and sides with the workers not the bosses. He feels for women in distress, and has little admiration for men in command.&#8221;<br />
Pappe locates the struggle for land at the very center of this narrative, and he does not hesitate to call the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948 an act of &#8220;ethnic cleansing,&#8221; proceeding under the aegis of the Zionist &#8220;Plan D,&#8221; which systematically drove 700,000 Palestinian Arabs from their villages. At the same time, he notes the chronically ineffective Palestinian leadership, from the clan rivalries of Palestinian &#8220;notables&#8221; that made any unified resistance to British and Zionist encroachments impossible, to the top-down rule of the Palestinian Authority, which cooperated in the disaster of Oslo and sidelined average, suffering Palestinians in Israel, under occupation, and in exile. He notes the complexities of opinion and experience among Jews in Palestine and Israel, including those early Zionists who hoped from the beginning for a binational secular state, and the Mizrahi or Arab Jews, who faced considerable discrimination at the hands of Ashkenazi or European Jews. And with a realistic but hopeful eye on Palestine&#8217;s future, he highlights what &#8220;The Urge for Co-habitation&#8221; in Mandate Palestine, and even in Israel. He finds resources for hope in the history of his own Haifa during the 1920s, when it &#8220;became the site of the most exciting experience of class solidarity and bi-national, or even a-national cooperation.&#8221; For instance, Jewish workers and Arab workers (Palestinian, Syrian, and Egyptian) came together in the first Palestinian trade union, which united workers in the railway, telegraphic, and postal services against their British employers. </p>
<p>Pappe&#8217;s keen, historians&#8217; eye for the complexities of lived experience on both sides is particularly welcome today, when reductive scholar-warriors like Benny Morris are willing to present Palestine&#8217;s past and future as a conflict between Zionist &#8220;civilization&#8221; and Arab-Islamic &#8220;barbarism,&#8221; and when Ariel Sharon seems to see a wall of concrete tombstones festooned with guard towers as Israel&#8217;s last best hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/the-harsh-reality-of-the-middle-east-conflict/#comment-19836</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 13:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=1957#comment-19836</guid>
		<description>With regard to Dan Lieberman&#039;s piece, it was once argued that an independent Palestine would not be viable, ECONOMICALLY.  (From which it seems to me to follow as the night the day, that the Green Zone would not be economically viable.)   Which is not unrelated to this country&#039;s continuing embargo of Cuba.   

Personally, I&#039;m repeatedly on record on the internet pointing out that Jews are presently and always have been on the battlelines of progressive change throughout the world as well as in Israel.   And although I am neither a Christian nor a believer in any supreme being, my &quot;Eleventh Commandment&quot; -- also on the internet -- is: Thou shalt not confuse Israelis with Jews.&quot;

Thank you for this article, Dan Lieberman, and I hope my assumption from your last name that you are Jewish is not an error.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regard to Dan Lieberman&#8217;s piece, it was once argued that an independent Palestine would not be viable, ECONOMICALLY.  (From which it seems to me to follow as the night the day, that the Green Zone would not be economically viable.)   Which is not unrelated to this country&#8217;s continuing embargo of Cuba.   </p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;m repeatedly on record on the internet pointing out that Jews are presently and always have been on the battlelines of progressive change throughout the world as well as in Israel.   And although I am neither a Christian nor a believer in any supreme being, my &#8220;Eleventh Commandment&#8221; &#8212; also on the internet &#8212; is: Thou shalt not confuse Israelis with Jews.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thank you for this article, Dan Lieberman, and I hope my assumption from your last name that you are Jewish is not an error.</p>
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